Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to
Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another episode as we, of
Speaker 1: course break down the psychology of our twenties. Today, we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about money, not how to make more
Speaker 1: of it, not how to invest it. We're not going
Speaker 1: to talk about get rich quick schemes or how to budget,
Speaker 1: but the ways in which money, our psychology, and our
Speaker 1: mental health are related in a lot of ways we
Speaker 1: probably didn't even know. It's been a little over two
Speaker 1: years since I last ded a specific money episode, which
Speaker 1: honestly is way too long given how universal I think
Speaker 1: financial insecurity is during this decade, Given that it is
Speaker 1: a time when a lot of us are first becoming
Speaker 1: financially independent, trying our hardest to save living paycheck to paycheck,
Speaker 1: I think financial anxiety is something we can kind of
Speaker 1: all relate to in one aspect or another. During this
Speaker 1: time it kind of really bleeds into every aspect of
Speaker 1: our lives, and especially during this generation, we are facing
Speaker 1: a pretty harsh, pretty ruthless economic reality that is making
Speaker 1: the mental health impacts of our finances even more pronounced.
Speaker 1: I would say I think at least in in Sydney
Speaker 1: and Australia in general, really inflation is outpacing earnings. We
Speaker 1: are paying half of our paycheck each week into rent.
Speaker 1: Everyone wants to tell you that the next recession is coming.
Speaker 1: Groceries are so expensive, so there's no doubt that this
Speaker 1: is really contributing to a decline in overall life satisfaction,
Speaker 1: in mental well being across society, but especially for young people.
Speaker 1: In fact, I think the National Youth Mental Health Survey
Speaker 1: was released a couple weeks ago and it found that
Speaker 1: eighty percent of Australians, but I would actually say that
Speaker 1: this includes a lot of young people, people age seventeen
Speaker 1: to twenty five. Eighty percent of them are experiencing financial anxiety.
Speaker 1: They're feeling pessimistic about the future, and they're constantly thinking
Speaker 1: about their finances and what our finances allow us to
Speaker 1: do or prevent us from doing. For this reason and
Speaker 1: many many others, money takes on such an emotional role
Speaker 1: in our lives, and I just think that that fact
Speaker 1: doesn't get enough airtime. So let's talk about it today.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the interactions between money, our psychology, and
Speaker 1: our mental health. We're going to break down where our
Speaker 1: specific money fears come from, the root of financial anxiety,
Speaker 1: our individual money archetypes, how to find out what your
Speaker 1: money archetype or money language is, what worrying about money
Speaker 1: can do. You have mental health, your physical health, your relationships,
Speaker 1: our bodies, but also how to really navigate those obsessive
Speaker 1: fears and anxieties that we typically have around financial certainty
Speaker 1: and stability even when we are doing okay, even when
Speaker 1: we do have money. There is so much to discuss.
Speaker 2: I think I say that with every single episode, but
Speaker 2: this one in particular. This I just know this is
Speaker 2: probably going to go up to fifty minutes, probably an hour,
Speaker 2: So strap in, guys, I hope that you learn something.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy this episode. Without further ado, let's
Speaker 2: talk all things money and mental health. Like I said before,
Speaker 2: money is so much more emotional and psychological than we
Speaker 2: give it credit for anything that we care about or
Speaker 2: that is valuable in our lives, will have complicated emotions
Speaker 2: attached to it because it takes on this larger, more significant,
Speaker 2: important meaning. Money isn't just you know, a number on
Speaker 2: a screen that represents your bank balance. It's not like
Speaker 2: a twenty dollar bill in your pocket or the transactions
Speaker 2: on your phone. It represents freedom, independence, security, status, a
Speaker 2: certain lifestyle, sometimes even our level of happiness depending on
Speaker 2: who you are, and we are really fine tuned to
Speaker 2: care about it, and so it's a pretty dominant presence
Speaker 2: in our lives. It also impacts I think some of
Speaker 2: the most fundamental life decisions that will make in our
Speaker 2: twenties and beyond. Like, honestly, it impacts who we're friends with,
Speaker 2: It impacts who we date. It most certainly impacts where
Speaker 2: we live, not just in terms of neighborhood or suburb,
Speaker 2: but city country. It impacts what job we want to pursue,
Speaker 2: what career we would like to have. I think it
Speaker 2: possibly influence is all of those things almost as much
Speaker 2: as our personality or as our upbringing. And we'll get
Speaker 2: to see how upbringing and money are also very very
Speaker 2: much so interlinked. That's why I think it's really important
Speaker 2: to see money as something that we have a relationship with,
Speaker 2: rather than as just this random resource, because in a
Speaker 2: way we do. We do have a relationship with money,
Speaker 2: just like a romantic partner, just like a friend. Money
Speaker 2: can impact our mood. Money can make us feel safe
Speaker 2: or insecure. Our relationship to money changes and evolves as
Speaker 2: we have more of it or less of it. It can
Speaker 2: improve our lives or really bring it down. I could
Speaker 2: be describing money, or I could be describing a toxic
Speaker 2: relationship or a healthy relationship. And you know, the same
Speaker 2: way that our relationships can be influenced by things like
Speaker 2: childhood experiences, like parental attitudes, culture trauma, self esteem, so
Speaker 2: can our relationship with money, because it means more than
Speaker 2: we think it does. The other thing to note is
Speaker 2: that just like your relationship with your boyfriend or your girlfriend,
Speaker 2: or your partner, or your friend or your parents, if
Speaker 2: you were to compare that relationship your closest relationships to
Speaker 2: you know, a coworker or to one of your own friends,
Speaker 2: each of us is going to have a different set
Speaker 2: of circumstances and a different kind of relationship pattern, and
Speaker 2: that pattern is going to control and impact our emotions
Speaker 2: and our mental state. In different ways. Basically, what I'm
Speaker 2: saying is that this is actually a highly personal topic
Speaker 2: and it's highly nuanced. It's not just about how much
Speaker 2: money do I have and if I have more. If
Speaker 2: I have enough, I'm going to be fine, and if
Speaker 2: I don't have enough, I'm going to be stressed. I
Speaker 2: think it's really important to note here that when we're
Speaker 2: talking about financial anxiety and financial stress, it's actually not
Speaker 2: just one thing. It's two things up of two components.
Speaker 2: We have objective financial difficulty, and then we have our
Speaker 2: subjective perceptions about our financial difficulties. Objective financial difficulty will
Speaker 2: start by talking about that first. It is when you
Speaker 2: just undoubtedly are struggling, no matter who you are. We
Speaker 2: kind of all know what it means to be in debt.
Speaker 2: We all know it's not great to be down to
Speaker 2: your last five dollars without any money coming in. We
Speaker 2: know that it's a bad sign if you don't have
Speaker 2: a steady income that can pay your bills. That is
Speaker 2: when it's really time to start worrying. And in those moments,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us feel justified in our
Speaker 2: financial worries. Not having money has a lot of run
Speaker 2: on consequences because this is not an enlightening thing to say,
Speaker 2: but we need money to live. We need it to
Speaker 2: access healthcare, to access food, to access housing, to access opportunity,
Speaker 2: to be quite honest, and when you don't have money,
Speaker 2: it feels like you can't have a life. It becomes
Speaker 2: this constant stressor because it's threatening our core sense of survival,
Speaker 2: and that is normally all our brains can focus on
Speaker 2: when in that situation. In fact, people who go a
Speaker 2: long time struggling with their finances, which is becoming more common,
Speaker 2: or people who have very little for a long time,
Speaker 2: even if they can meet their basic needs, if it's
Speaker 2: always this survival state, if it's always living paycheck to paycheck,
Speaker 2: they actually develop a lot of symptoms of chronic stress, insomnia, fatigue,
Speaker 2: even stomach ulcers, changes, an appetite, distorted thinking, because all
Speaker 2: of those survival systems we have that are meant to
Speaker 2: be for moments of extreme danger are constantly being activated
Speaker 2: because money has become this important resource for which a
Speaker 2: lack of is indicative danger, and so they tend to
Speaker 2: stay in this heightened state of arousal that no living organism,
Speaker 2: no species, no human is meant to be in for
Speaker 2: an extended period of time, and that puts a lot
Speaker 2: of pressure on our body. It damages our immune system,
Speaker 2: It compromises how our hormones are secreted, which is something
Speaker 2: that a lot of people don't talk about the impact
Speaker 2: of chronic stress on literally your DNA, on your ability
Speaker 2: to meet your basic needs for sleep, for rest, for connection.
Speaker 2: I don't really think it's a surprise that this one
Speaker 2: paper in twenty twenty three concluded that having a lower
Speaker 2: income for an extended period of time, which they said
Speaker 2: was three months or more, that is strongly correlated with
Speaker 2: increased psychological distress and mental health concerns, specifically anxiety and depression.
Speaker 2: And the thing is, you just don't know when that
Speaker 2: situation is going to end. You just don't know when
Speaker 2: you're finances will turn for you. No one can say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, on this date, you're finally going to get
Speaker 2: that windfall and it's all going to be okay. For
Speaker 2: so many other stressful situations that we go through in life,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's like small things like exam season
Speaker 2: that might feel very big, or breakups or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: We can go to therapy, we can be mindful, we
Speaker 2: can remove ourselves from stressful relationships or situations. We can
Speaker 2: change how we think about something. We can problem solve.
Speaker 2: When you're worrying about money, the problem and the solution
Speaker 2: are the same thing. You wouldn't be worrying about your
Speaker 2: income or your finances if you had money, if you
Speaker 2: knew how to make more. But you don't know how
Speaker 2: to make more, so that's why you're so stressed. There's
Speaker 2: really nothing else you can do. Again, money is the
Speaker 2: problem and the solution. I think money just also makes
Speaker 2: life easier because it firstly eliminates the stress of not
Speaker 2: knowing if you're going to be able to provide for yourself,
Speaker 2: but it also just reduces I guess it just reduces
Speaker 2: the stress of everyday life, of things taking longer, of
Speaker 2: things being inconvenient. The phrase that always comes to mind
Speaker 2: to me when I think about this, of like money
Speaker 2: makes life easier, is the phrase money is time. And
Speaker 2: so if you have money, you can buy yourself time
Speaker 2: in your day. And I give the example of you
Speaker 2: know being able to order in your groceries, therefore saving
Speaker 2: you time that you can then spend cleaning your house, relaxing, working,
Speaker 2: compared to not being able to afford that luxury and
Speaker 2: having to go to the store, which means extra stress,
Speaker 2: extra travel time, extra time not for yourself or not
Speaker 2: for other things that are important. And that is a
Speaker 2: small example, right, but I think it really shows how
Speaker 2: having more money does make life easier. Unfortunately, the other
Speaker 2: reason that more money or a steady income or a
Speaker 2: stable income might also benefit our mental health is that
Speaker 2: money just gives you more options and freedom to you know,
Speaker 2: leave toxic workplaces which may have made you stressed, to
Speaker 2: pay for therapy that will give you peace of mind.
Speaker 2: You know, there is this daying right, money can't buy happiness,
Speaker 2: and maybe you've heard of that famous study that after
Speaker 2: someone is making you know, one hundred and twenty eight
Speaker 2: more money doesn't exponentially make your life much better. But
Speaker 2: the thing that money can get you, if not happiness,
Speaker 2: are the secondary influences of happiness. And I'm talking security, freedom, independence,
Speaker 2: better services, and of course choice and choice gives you
Speaker 2: control over your life, all of which helps ease stress.
Speaker 2: Ease anxiety is the sense that you actually don't have agency,
Speaker 2: that you actually can't choose for yourself the life that
Speaker 2: you want to live. Also, and you know not to
Speaker 2: add to this like a litany of things, but I
Speaker 2: do think it's important. You know, not making much money,
Speaker 2: not having the means, also creates limits to what we
Speaker 2: can do socially, especially if you have friends who are
Speaker 2: at very different points in their life financially. You know,
Speaker 2: how do you keep up with the dinners where it's
Speaker 2: always going to cost you more than your groceries for
Speaker 2: the week. How do you keep up with going out
Speaker 2: and paying for drinks every Friday, or going on those holidays,
Speaker 2: or going shopping or buying all those concert tickets. It's like,
Speaker 2: with everything you're invited to, price is the first thing
Speaker 2: you have to think of. And you face this dilemma,
Speaker 2: go and try and enjoy yourself, knowing you won't be
Speaker 2: able to say yes to everything because you're limited financially,
Speaker 2: and you'll probably end up worrying about money afterwards, or
Speaker 2: stay home and get that intense pomo that we all
Speaker 2: feel so much more intensely in our twenties, that not
Speaker 2: only are you missing out on this time in your life,
Speaker 2: but you're also missing out on the memories and the
Speaker 2: connections that could have been made between you and your friends.
Speaker 2: And we know that social isolation or sense of disconnection
Speaker 2: is one of the biggest predictors of poor mental health outcomes,
Speaker 2: because we need community, we need those moments with friends,
Speaker 2: We need to belong somewhere. I think you kind of
Speaker 2: get my point here, right. I say all of this
Speaker 2: because I want you to know it's firstly, not just you. Secondly,
Speaker 2: it's not an overreaction. It's not greedy. It's not obsessive
Speaker 2: or selfish to be worrying about money. Money has these
Speaker 2: impacts across all domains of wellbeing, even in very, very
Speaker 2: hidden ways, even in ways that the average person who
Speaker 2: isn't struggling with money would never suspect. Right. Something that
Speaker 2: really frustrates me is people who are like, oh, you know, money,
Speaker 2: every time I spend money, money comes back to me
Speaker 2: because I have an abundance mindset. And I totally respect
Speaker 2: that perspective because I think if it works for you,
Speaker 2: it works for you. But there are actually just sometimes
Speaker 2: where it's like, no, I cannot just spend money and
Speaker 2: hope that it comes back to me. I actually have
Speaker 2: a life, and I have bills to pay, and I
Speaker 2: may not be in the same situation as you, and
Speaker 2: I think that also creates friction and relationships where it's
Speaker 2: like money. Also, the way we spend money also comes
Speaker 2: down to values, and it's a really interesting touch point
Speaker 2: to see how the values between you and your friends differ,
Speaker 2: the privilege between you and your friends differ, and sometimes
Speaker 2: that can end up being a bit of a deal
Speaker 2: breaker in a lot of different relationships. I'm going to
Speaker 2: move on because I want to talk about subjective financial stress,
Speaker 2: because even when we have money, even when we can
Speaker 2: pay all of our expenses, you can still be worried
Speaker 2: about money. And I think that's something that's often left
Speaker 2: out of the conversation, and a lot of people are like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm not justified in my concerns, but
Speaker 2: I'm so. I don't want to say obsessive because it
Speaker 2: makes it sound like this is a choice, but the
Speaker 2: thoughts around this just so obsessive and intrusive to me.
Speaker 2: That difference in perspective comes down to our subjective appraisals
Speaker 2: about money. Maybe feeling like we don't have enough in
Speaker 2: comparison to others, even if we can afford everything we need.
Speaker 2: Maybe worrying about a future time when you won't have money,
Speaker 2: even though you have money, right now feeling insecure about
Speaker 2: your finances no matter what is objectively happening. That is
Speaker 2: the distinction between objective financial insecurity and subjective financial insecurity,
Speaker 2: and both equally damaging. You know, I get where the
Speaker 2: sentiment comes from. Of like, well, obviously the person without
Speaker 2: money has it worse. But even if someone does is
Speaker 2: able to meet the basic needs and still is obsessing
Speaker 2: about money, it is quite I think demanding, and quite
Speaker 2: a burden. And it comes from a very I think intricate,
Speaker 2: interesting amalgamation of past experiences that aren't spoken about. If
Speaker 2: you have had times of financial insecurity in the past,
Speaker 2: if you know what it's like to be dead broke,
Speaker 2: that is not a feeling that goes away very easily.
Speaker 2: The other example I give is if you had parents
Speaker 2: who were always worried about money, who you know, their incomes,
Speaker 2: their jobs meant that they could never give you what
Speaker 2: the other kids had. That is quite a powerful experience.
Speaker 2: Our brains are wired to remember those periods of stress,
Speaker 2: whether it's because of money or really anything, because if
Speaker 2: we've endured and survived these stressful periods, our brain obviously
Speaker 2: wants to ensure that if this situation comes up again
Speaker 2: in the future. Our memory of the path out is
Speaker 2: crystal clear. That is, of course, our brains trying to
Speaker 2: do the helpful thing and create a bit of a
Speaker 2: guide book for us, a living guidebook, using stress as
Speaker 2: basically a sign to pay attention and to consolidate worthwhile memories.
Speaker 2: But it can also lead to a lot of rumination
Speaker 2: overthinking about the right way or the wrong way to
Speaker 2: be spending, saving, investing. This chronic app apprehension and stress,
Speaker 2: even when objectively you might not have much to worry about.
Speaker 2: And crucially, this reaction is different for each of us.
Speaker 2: And this is where I really want to introduce you
Speaker 2: to this very fascinating concept of our money languages and
Speaker 2: our money archetypes. All of that and more. After this shortbreak,
Speaker 2: I think we all know the deal with love languages
Speaker 2: by now. This is this idea introduced by doctor Gary Chapman,
Speaker 2: that each of us has a unique way of expressing
Speaker 2: and receiving love, whether that's acts of service, words of affirmation,
Speaker 2: quality time, the list goes on. Well, it turns out
Speaker 2: that each of us also has a unique language when
Speaker 2: it comes to money. But in this instance, there are
Speaker 2: nine archetypes or nine languages instead of five, and they
Speaker 2: are the anxious, the saver, the spender, the investor, the giver,
Speaker 2: the order, the void, the monk, and the greedy. That
Speaker 2: is a lot of different labels to take notice of,
Speaker 2: but the archetype or language that most represents us is
Speaker 2: basically determined by our emotional attachment to money and how
Speaker 2: it is mentally represented in our brains. Basically, what I'm
Speaker 2: saying and what I mean by this is when you
Speaker 2: think about money, is it with anxiety, is it with
Speaker 2: longing to stain, apathy? Joy? And this will basically dictate
Speaker 2: how you end up going about well, you know, of
Speaker 2: course feeling about the money you have, but also your
Speaker 2: behaviors towards spending. Your behavior is towards saving, investing, all
Speaker 2: of the above, and it's really dictated by your childhood
Speaker 2: experiences with money, how your parents spoke about money, the
Speaker 2: culture you grew up in, and even elements of our
Speaker 2: personality like impulsiveness, cautiousness, things like that. And once again
Speaker 2: I really want to express that this is really what
Speaker 2: influences is our level of anxiety, our level of stress,
Speaker 2: our level of arousal, even when it comes to dealing
Speaker 2: with our finances. So let's go through these, and just
Speaker 2: while we're talking about them, see if one of these
Speaker 2: really draws you in more, or if you just find
Speaker 2: your ears kind of perking up, you find yourself relating
Speaker 2: to these different archetypes, or if you can see them
Speaker 2: reflected in maybe a parent or a partner or a friend.
Speaker 2: Even so, let's start with the anxious. This is often
Speaker 2: the money language of those of us who grew up
Speaker 2: with very little, and so all of our interactions with budgeting, saving,
Speaker 2: financing are centered around these very prominent anxious thoughts, such as,
Speaker 2: what happens when I don't have money? Will it all
Speaker 2: be taken away at some point? What happens when the
Speaker 2: tap dries out?
Speaker 1: Even when you do.
Speaker 2: Have a steady income, when you do have that savings
Speaker 2: account stocked up, So when you do have I don't know, investments, assets,
Speaker 2: you still have this feeling. You still have this feeling
Speaker 2: that at some point it's all going to disappear or
Speaker 2: that it isn't going to last, and that you can't
Speaker 2: get used to this state. So basically, there is a
Speaker 2: lot of apprehension when it comes to this language. Thinking
Speaker 2: about money a lot, checking a bank account, frequently seeing
Speaker 2: everything in terms of a dollar value and what the
Speaker 2: opportunity cost of that is, basically meaning what could that
Speaker 2: money have brought you and would it have been better.
Speaker 2: Some people might call this a fixation, which in some
Speaker 2: ways it is, but it's not a fixation with accumulating
Speaker 2: as much wealth as possible. It's a fixation with worrying
Speaker 2: about your survival when it comes to money, and it
Speaker 2: really comes from a permanent scarcity mindset in psychology but
Speaker 2: also in economics. Actually, scarcity mindset is a pattern of
Speaker 2: thinking that really focuses on what you don't have and
Speaker 2: an underlying belief that you could never possibly have enough
Speaker 2: of the things that you want to need. Can you
Speaker 2: see what kind of cycle this creates for else mentally
Speaker 2: and emotionally, where at no point are you ever at peace,
Speaker 2: Even when you have money to spare or to spend,
Speaker 2: you're always in your mind kind of facing a reality
Speaker 2: of having nothing. There's no reprieve, there's no kind of
Speaker 2: break from it. So that's the first money language. Next
Speaker 2: up we have the saver. Now, the saver is also
Speaker 2: known as the stressor, so this person is very cautious
Speaker 2: when handling their money. They derive a lot of satisfaction
Speaker 2: from seeing their savings grow because it feels like they're
Speaker 2: doing something with it that is safe and practical. Brings
Speaker 2: a sense of security, but also because they might not
Speaker 2: be sure what really to do with their money, or
Speaker 2: like the anxious, they're really worried about a time when
Speaker 2: they won't have money, But instead of that making them
Speaker 2: behave right, maybe irrationally or just fixate on the on
Speaker 2: the fear, the way that they approach it is just
Speaker 2: by saving as much as they can. And whilst this
Speaker 2: can mean that they're very good at avoiding frivolous spending,
Speaker 2: sometimes they also miss out on opportunities. They miss out
Speaker 2: on instances in which they could change jobs and men
Speaker 2: make more money because there may be this, you know,
Speaker 2: concern that if they were to do that, that might
Speaker 2: impact their primary inclination, their primary behavior, which is to
Speaker 2: save and to save as much as they can and
Speaker 2: to make this little ness for themselves so they never
Speaker 2: have to worry. This is similar to the hoarder, but
Speaker 2: the distinction is that the stressor or the saver, their
Speaker 2: primary kind of impulse is to save, but they will
Speaker 2: spend when they need to. The hoarder takes it to
Speaker 2: the extreme. If you've ever met someone who will literally
Speaker 2: not spend a cent on going out for dinner or
Speaker 2: buying groceries or buying the essentials that they need, that
Speaker 2: is a hoarder. It can make them really isolated and obsessive.
Speaker 2: And specifically, they are hoarding money not with the intention
Speaker 2: to spend it, sometimes not with the intention to even
Speaker 2: allow it to have a better life in the future.
Speaker 2: It's just almost like, I don't even know how to
Speaker 2: explain it. I'm trying to remember how someone explained it
Speaker 2: to me once. But it's basically just like a comfort thing.
Speaker 2: If I hold this money, it's just comfortable to know
Speaker 2: that I have it, even if I really have no
Speaker 2: intention of ever spending it. Next, we have the spender. Now,
Speaker 2: this person, actually, the spender is one of my favorite
Speaker 2: profiles to really talk about, because this person derives a
Speaker 2: lot of joy and satisfaction from seeing their money in
Speaker 2: experiences or material goods. Now, I said it's my favorite,
Speaker 2: not because it's the best, but because I just find
Speaker 2: it the most interesting and the most unique out of
Speaker 2: all of these. They really tend to live in the moment,
Speaker 2: and they may prioritize immediate gratification over long term savings,
Speaker 2: even when that is costly to them or impulsive, And
Speaker 2: the spender is often impulsive because money becomes a mean
Speaker 2: through which to manage their emotions. I'm feeling sad, I
Speaker 2: spend to soothe. Feeling happy, I spend to celebrate. So
Speaker 2: their spending habits are chronic, but they're also tied to
Speaker 2: what they're going through, So no matter where they're at
Speaker 2: on that emotional spectrum, there's always a need, there's always
Speaker 2: a reason to buy something. To note, a twenty twenty
Speaker 2: one paper actually suggests that the spender is on the
Speaker 2: rise because so many of us no longer see the
Speaker 2: value in saving for things like a house, like big
Speaker 2: financial goals, because we kind of believe that we'll never
Speaker 2: be able to get them anyways, So why bother when
Speaker 2: we can really lean into our hedonistic tendencies and we
Speaker 2: can kind of prioritize pleasure over everything else. The pleasure
Speaker 2: of a new outfit, the pleasure of a nice wine,
Speaker 2: of a fancy dinner, of a new couch. I don't
Speaker 2: know why I said couch. I'm thinking about buying a
Speaker 2: new couch, so that's probably where it comes from. But
Speaker 2: you kind of get what I mean, lavish trips, but
Speaker 2: it's not so much for looks. It's not for status.
Speaker 2: It's because I just kind of want to. Very counter
Speaker 2: to the spender, we have the investor. They are very
Speaker 2: focused on growing wealth through investments. They kind of sometimes
Speaker 2: see money as something to play with or something to
Speaker 2: make work for them, and they get really excited, maybe
Speaker 2: obsessed with knowing more about the stock market, financial fluctuations,
Speaker 2: when to buy, when to sell, but that can really
Speaker 2: make them overly focused on financial returns. Sometimes they can
Speaker 2: also become gamblers because they see gambling as an investment,
Speaker 2: kind of like this saver. Sometimes they don't actually spend
Speaker 2: when they need to because either they don't have any
Speaker 2: money because they've invested it all, or because they really
Speaker 2: like to see money as this thing to play with
Speaker 2: that can make more money. This kind of financial alchemy
Speaker 2: that they can perform. This is very similar to the
Speaker 2: amassa our six archetype. This is also known as the
Speaker 2: greed archetype. Some people often confuse this with the with
Speaker 2: the saver, but this individual isn't accumulating wealth for a
Speaker 2: sense of security, but as a measure of success and status.
Speaker 2: They are highly motivated to put money away and gain
Speaker 2: as much as possible to eventually convert into highly coveted
Speaker 2: possessions or to appear impressive to have a really cool portfolio.
Speaker 2: In that way, the mass is often driven I would say,
Speaker 2: my ego and can become really obsessed with money as
Speaker 2: a resource for maintaining their image rather than as a
Speaker 2: resource to make their day to day life better. And
Speaker 2: you can see how that really ties into mental health,
Speaker 2: where the only way they feel good about themselves and
Speaker 2: about their lives is when they are growing this portfolio
Speaker 2: of what they're worth and what they have something that
Speaker 2: you'll quickly realize we've only got a few more to go.
Speaker 2: But with these archetypes, with these languages, they often come
Speaker 2: in pairs, and these pairs sit in opposition, so opposite pairs.
Speaker 2: I guess they kind of sit in our position with
Speaker 2: each other. And that's the case with the amassa and
Speaker 2: the giver. So the amassa is really looking to stock up,
Speaker 2: but the giver sees money is something to donate, to share,
Speaker 2: to be generous with, to use to help others. Think
Speaker 2: about your friend who is kind of always donating to
Speaker 2: those random growthundmes that like pop up on their TikTok.
Speaker 2: The friend who will shower you in gifts on your
Speaker 2: birthday despite the fact that her rent is late, who
Speaker 2: was very selfs us with their money. Often these people
Speaker 2: have been raised to be very generous, but they can
Speaker 2: also be very financially negligent and mismanaged, and they lack
Speaker 2: boundaries around money that can get them in a lot
Speaker 2: of trouble. They're lending money to friends, to family, pay
Speaker 2: me back whenever, and it's kind of like, well, eventually
Speaker 2: you do kind of need a system around where your
Speaker 2: money's going to who it's going to. So we have
Speaker 2: two more. Hopefully I'm not going too fast few, but
Speaker 2: you can always listen back and hopefully it's clear what
Speaker 2: the distinctions are. I think when you really start to
Speaker 2: think about them, it becomes a lot more apparent. But
Speaker 2: the last do we have are the avoid and the Monk.
Speaker 2: Let's start with the monk first, because I really want
Speaker 2: to hone in on the avoid as one of as
Speaker 2: our last archetypes so it stays with you. The monk
Speaker 2: is actually super rare, but they believe that money is
Speaker 2: essentially the root of all evil. And it makes us
Speaker 2: unfulfilled to the point where they are happy to accept
Speaker 2: poverty over sometimes even meeting their basic needs. They're very
Speaker 2: content with a minimalist life, but they can also overlook
Speaker 2: the practical necessity of money. Like I said, not very common.
Speaker 2: I honestly don't think I've met anyone like this. In
Speaker 2: my mind and in my circles. It's much more common
Speaker 2: to meet a giver who kind of unintentionally rids themselves
Speaker 2: of their financial possessions, not because they think it's evil,
Speaker 2: because they think of all the good that it can
Speaker 2: do for their friends and family, and they just kind
Speaker 2: of are quite blase about it. But the final archetype
Speaker 2: is the avoid And let me say there as loud
Speaker 2: and clear, as far as us twenty somethings go, the
Speaker 2: avoid is the one that I see the most of
Speaker 2: in my own life. For sure. They don't want to know.
Speaker 2: They don't want to know what's in their bank account.
Speaker 2: They don't want to know how much they're saving or
Speaker 2: investing or spending, or what bills they have coming up,
Speaker 2: what they spend on the weekend. And it's often because
Speaker 2: we experience a lot of emotional distress even thinking about money,
Speaker 2: even thinking about our finances. A lot of this comes
Speaker 2: from fear, either from struggling in the past, feeling like
Speaker 2: no matter what, you won't you're not educated or capable
Speaker 2: of really treating your money healthily or in a way
Speaker 2: that's going to work for you. And it's really based
Speaker 2: on some simple psychological principles avoid bad feelings, and we
Speaker 2: feel better avoid thinking about money, and we don't feel
Speaker 2: stressed about money. But this can get us in a
Speaker 2: lot of trouble. I feel like that goes without saying,
Speaker 2: and it can end up getting us into an even
Speaker 2: worse place than we were when we began this habit,
Speaker 2: because the money is still being spent, The money is
Speaker 2: still going somewhere, even if we're not thinking about it,
Speaker 2: even if we are consciously or unconsciously ignoring it. And
Speaker 2: all that we're doing there is trying to navigate mediate
Speaker 2: mitigate our emotional response to money by just pretending that
Speaker 2: whatever's going on in our finances doesn't exist, turning a
Speaker 2: blind eye. And I also want to say, I think
Speaker 2: this is really common in our twenties because we don't
Speaker 2: feel like we're very financially literate and because there are
Speaker 2: just like so many There's just so many times when
Speaker 2: like hidden expenses come up, we feel like we're stupid
Speaker 2: or silly for not noticing them. We feel kind of
Speaker 2: ridiculous or really quite i don't know, impulsive, or just
Speaker 2: dumb for like spending money on certain things. And I
Speaker 2: think it's just this whole environment of a lot of
Speaker 2: us are just confused and not educated around how to
Speaker 2: spend money, and we're really learning a lot of those
Speaker 2: financial consequences of money mismanagement for the first time, and
Speaker 2: it's embarrassing and kind of gives us an ego check.
Speaker 2: It makes us feel quite negatively about ourselves. And of
Speaker 2: course our mind loves to protect our ego. It wants
Speaker 2: to protect our sense of self, and so in order
Speaker 2: to do that, it stops us from thinking about how
Speaker 2: we've messed up, stop something thinking about our mistakes. This
Speaker 2: is a great example really of why we need to
Speaker 2: start interrogating this relationship that we have with money that
Speaker 2: comes from our psychology, because I think in all of
Speaker 2: those instances, something is not quite right, something is a
Speaker 2: little bit off balance. And when we don't figure out
Speaker 2: what the emotional and cognitive reactions to money are, or
Speaker 2: we don't really start thinking about what's influencing our behavior.
Speaker 2: We keep getting an outcome that intensifies that initial need
Speaker 2: to be very one tracked minded when it comes to money,
Speaker 2: to avoid, to splurge, to a mass, to save intensely.
Speaker 2: In every instance, though, although you might feel more positively
Speaker 2: about one of those languages or archetypes in the other,
Speaker 2: we are still controlled by money. Our money language is
Speaker 2: still in response to an underlying sense or lack of control,
Speaker 2: or anxiety or stress. So what I want to talk
Speaker 2: about next is how we can approach our finances, whatever
Speaker 2: they may be, with a healthy attitude, with the best
Speaker 2: mindset we can possibly muster, so that A we can
Speaker 2: actually do the best we can with what we have
Speaker 2: in our twenties, with what we're making. B we can
Speaker 2: reduce some of the subjective stress and see we can
Speaker 2: actually start to put in place helpful, productive strategies when
Speaker 2: it comes to thinking about money. So it's not always
Speaker 2: the news around our next, so it's not always controlling
Speaker 2: that controlling us. So all of that and more after
Speaker 2: this shortbreak. Okay, I do want to say one more
Speaker 2: time than I'm not a financial coach. That is not
Speaker 2: my specialty. So I'm not going to give you specific
Speaker 2: financial tips about where to invest what to do with
Speaker 2: your money, because I do believe that's up to you,
Speaker 2: and obviously I don't know your individual circumstances. But what
Speaker 2: I can help you with is the mental side of things,
Speaker 2: and for that I have a number of tips for
Speaker 2: you that I've learned from therapist who specialize in financial anxiety,
Speaker 2: from academic papers, and even some of my own experiences
Speaker 2: as well. Firstly, I really just want you to notice
Speaker 2: whether your financial anxiety and financial distress is objective or subjective.
Speaker 2: Are you objectively unable to meet your needs, pay your bills,
Speaker 2: have a bit left over for you and your interests?
Speaker 2: Or is this more of a subjective appraisal stemming from
Speaker 2: a scarcity mindset or an ingrained anxious attitude towards your finances.
Speaker 2: Here are really three questions to ask yourself in order
Speaker 2: to tell which of these you're experiencing. Are you consistently
Speaker 2: worried about your finances even when you have a stable
Speaker 2: income and stable savings. If yes, that indicates subjective financial anxiety.
Speaker 2: If no, objective when you think about your financial future,
Speaker 2: do you worry more about unlikely scenarios like you know,
Speaker 2: losing your savings all of a sudden, or do you
Speaker 2: worry more about real and current changes. Real and current
Speaker 2: changes is objective. Financial future hypotheticals are subjective. Have you
Speaker 2: reviewed your budget and found that your expenses exceeded your
Speaker 2: income and that you can't afford basic necessities? Yes, indicate
Speaker 2: its objective. No equals subjective. The thing is you may
Speaker 2: still be feeling stressed regardless of whether it's subjective or objective.
Speaker 2: I don't think that there's like a competition, but as
Speaker 2: you just think that there are going to be different
Speaker 2: strategy is depending on where you sit. If it's objective
Speaker 2: financial difficulties that you're managing, you're going to need a
Speaker 2: more practical based strategy. I would really encourage you to
Speaker 2: really just get into your financial basics. Do you have
Speaker 2: a budget? Who can you talk to professionally to help
Speaker 2: you manage your money? Can you ask friends or family
Speaker 2: to help? What needs or ways of spending need to
Speaker 2: change to make your situation more secure? What do you
Speaker 2: know about your bank account? What do you know about
Speaker 2: even your daily spending. It's crazy how many people, I
Speaker 2: think have a lot of problems with money in this
Speaker 2: generation when they are making enough money to survive, but
Speaker 2: they just never really look they never really look at
Speaker 2: what they're spending and what that's on. I also really
Speaker 2: recommend that if it's not a case of like you
Speaker 2: actually have the money there, you're just not spending it, well,
Speaker 2: go and talk to a financial counselor who can help
Speaker 2: you with managing debt, with managing bills. There is literally
Speaker 2: no shame in it. There is no shame. The amount
Speaker 2: of people who have struggles with money or who just
Speaker 2: don't really know what to do is just in the millions,
Speaker 2: probably in the billions, because it's not a system that
Speaker 2: was created to be understandable by everyone. So there are
Speaker 2: so many, so many services. A lot of them are
Speaker 2: from the not for profit sector that offer this service
Speaker 2: for free, that will let you come in and will
Speaker 2: help you through whatever it is you're experiencing money wise. Also,
Speaker 2: you know, financial literacy is a huge asset if you're
Speaker 2: experiencing a lot of objective financial stress. The lack of
Speaker 2: financial literacy we have in the lack of financial education
Speaker 2: that we receive is abysmal, like it's genuinely criminal. The
Speaker 2: fact that you go through decades of school learning about
Speaker 2: calculus and history. No one's going to tell you how
Speaker 2: to ask for a raise, No one's going to tell
Speaker 2: you how to apply for a home loan, how to
Speaker 2: set up a household budget, how to find deals for
Speaker 2: your expenses, where to go for help. But when we
Speaker 2: have more knowledge, we feel more empowered to really not
Speaker 2: live under the thumb of money. Again, I'm not a
Speaker 2: financial advisor, keiping my advice on the rather brief side
Speaker 2: of this, but I do think that there are a
Speaker 2: lot of options out there, and if this is something
Speaker 2: that is gravely impacting your mental health, there is a
Speaker 2: way to find a solution that is going to leave
Speaker 2: you being able to just have the money you need
Speaker 2: to survive, but also the money that you need to
Speaker 2: not constantly be worried about it, to not constantly be
Speaker 2: hung up on things, to find an avenue out, to
Speaker 2: find a better opportunity that's going to kind of elevate
Speaker 2: your financial situation. And let's move on to subjective financial
Speaker 2: anxiety here, because whereby objective financial difficulty really requires a
Speaker 2: practical approach, subjective financial stress requires a more psychological and
Speaker 2: emotional plan of attack. To begin with, I really want
Speaker 2: you to understand your money behaviors and your money archetype.
Speaker 2: So think back to that list we gave, and I
Speaker 2: want you to have having ideas to find where you sat,
Speaker 2: understand where that language or archetype may have come from,
Speaker 2: and the habit loop that is associated with it. Remember,
Speaker 2: subjective financial anxiety is having money and still feeling worried
Speaker 2: despite all of your needs being secured. I really want
Speaker 2: you to notice, and this is a really good exercise,
Speaker 2: how you feel when you get paid, because that is
Speaker 2: obviously a time when money is quite prominent. It's on
Speaker 2: our minds. We're very flushed with cash. What is your
Speaker 2: first instinct? Is it to go out and spend it all?
Speaker 2: Is it to avoid looking at what needs to be paid?
Speaker 2: Is it to invest it immediately or to just immediately
Speaker 2: put it all away? Just notice what your first instinct
Speaker 2: is to do. I will say, if you are obviously
Speaker 2: in a period where you're trying to say for a house,
Speaker 2: you're trying to save for a car and overseas holiday,
Speaker 2: trying to pay off debt, and you have a strategy
Speaker 2: that is balanced, that is not your own money archetype,
Speaker 2: you have consciously overridden your archetype to meet your daily
Speaker 2: needs and what's actually happening in your current reality. But
Speaker 2: you still may have an underlying urge to treat something
Speaker 2: as emotional rather than practical. So even if you have
Speaker 2: an overarching strategy, what I want you to notice is
Speaker 2: the initial impulse. Like you know you should be putting
Speaker 2: twenty percent into a savings account, but what if as
Speaker 2: soon as you get paid, your impulses to go out
Speaker 2: and buy. Then your money archetype is probably that of
Speaker 2: the spender. So when you kind of know where you sit, secondly,
Speaker 2: think back to when you first started thinking about money
Speaker 2: this way. Was it those hard times in childhood? Was
Speaker 2: it not being taught financial literacy when you got your
Speaker 2: first job. Because just being able to identify that route,
Speaker 2: that origin, therefore allows you to notice situations that feel
Speaker 2: similar and which may be confronting for you, and which
Speaker 2: may be triggering you to rely on your money archetype
Speaker 2: even when it's not working. So some really common triggers
Speaker 2: that I tend to see are periods of stress. Is
Speaker 2: when I'm spending too much time on social media. When
Speaker 2: we're upset, grumpy, agitated, going through a big life change,
Speaker 2: we just don't have the mental energy to think about
Speaker 2: money in a way that is rational and helpfuls do
Speaker 2: we revert to that very instinctual and emotional approach. Remember
Speaker 2: often that instinctual approach, that money archetype is defensive and
Speaker 2: it's protective based on what you felt you liked or
Speaker 2: what you couldn't control, maybe at an earlier point in
Speaker 2: your life. And so you're applying this approach of hoarding, avoiding, splurging, saving,
Speaker 2: whatever it is, maybe to self soothes, maybe because it
Speaker 2: brings things back into control, maybe because you just don't
Speaker 2: know how else to do it. So take note of
Speaker 2: your triggers because that helps us understand our habit loop.
Speaker 2: Now I've been kind of teasing you with this habit
Speaker 2: loop idea, but this is a concept that was created
Speaker 2: by this man, doctor Judd, and he's actually a neuroscientist
Speaker 2: specializing an addiction, but his idea of a habit loop
Speaker 2: also applies to money. Basically, a habit loop contains three things,
Speaker 2: a trigger, a behavior, and a result. The trigger could
Speaker 2: be really anything that causes you to think about money
Speaker 2: in a way that is irrational or distressing, and it
Speaker 2: contributes to the behaviors aligned with your money archetype, and
Speaker 2: that results in the same thing happening, the same outcome
Speaker 2: occurring again and again and again. You revert to spending
Speaker 2: because you're feeling upset. That's the trigger. You don't have
Speaker 2: enough money available to you to last you till your
Speaker 2: next get paid. You feel very judged for not having
Speaker 2: as much as other people. That's going to make you
Speaker 2: feel like you need to amass more money now. To
Speaker 2: break the habit loop, we need to interrupt the cycle
Speaker 2: at the behavior, the moment you feel the compulsion to
Speaker 2: just immediately fall back into what's instinctual pause and really
Speaker 2: start to focus on what you actually want from your money.
Speaker 2: An amazing tip for doing this that I got from
Speaker 2: someone I was interviewing for this episode was to imagine
Speaker 2: the next two months, then one year, and then five years.
Speaker 2: What are your long term goals within each of those periods.
Speaker 2: What is the lifestyle you want in two months, in
Speaker 2: one year, then five will that make you happy? Is
Speaker 2: that possible? And what do you need to get there?
Speaker 2: Focus on making this goal or vision realistic. Firstly, so
Speaker 2: scale it back to match what you actually have coming in,
Speaker 2: what your expenses are actually like, and then start to
Speaker 2: plan and start to really sew down for a second
Speaker 2: and think about whether the way we're spending money now
Speaker 2: is going to let us meet that vision we have
Speaker 2: for two months, one year, and five years. When you
Speaker 2: go to spend, save, invest, whatever it is, think about
Speaker 2: what period this best suits, and make sure that you
Speaker 2: are equally distributing your financial choices across these three periods.
Speaker 2: So when she first explained to me, I was a
Speaker 2: little bit confused. I was like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: But this is what she told me. She said, you know,
Speaker 2: for example, when you buy and your outfit, that is
Speaker 2: something that your two month self really really wants. That's
Speaker 2: the lifestyle your two month self will enjoy having cool clothes,
Speaker 2: having great clothes that maybe they don't really need but
Speaker 2: they want. So you can still spend the money, but
Speaker 2: when you do, you also need to be thinking about
Speaker 2: your one year self. For all that money that you
Speaker 2: are spending on your two month self, are you also
Speaker 2: putting money into an emergency fund so that in one year,
Speaker 2: when your car breaks down you need to get a
Speaker 2: tooth removed, you can still be able to afford that.
Speaker 2: And then there is the five year self, your long
Speaker 2: term investments, your long term high interest savings account. Are
Speaker 2: you only thinking about money that you'll need for that
Speaker 2: trip in a year, and not the money you'll need
Speaker 2: for life or the money that you'll need for long
Speaker 2: term financial independence. Kind of be thinking about that as well,
Speaker 2: and balance your financial decisions across these three time periods. Now,
Speaker 2: I will say the five year time period, I'm not
Speaker 2: the best at putting money towards my five year lifestyle,
Speaker 2: my five year goal, my five year vision. Think I
Speaker 2: am leaning more towards like the one to two year
Speaker 2: period and definitely like what my two month self wants,
Speaker 2: Like my two month self wants the memories of going
Speaker 2: out for dinner with my friends, and my two month
Speaker 2: self wants to go to this new restaurant and wants
Speaker 2: to buy these new clothes and buy these new books
Speaker 2: and whatever. But really, I think that shows that I
Speaker 2: am maybe an avoid myself. HI sometimes don't really think
Speaker 2: about money because it stresses me out. So the real
Speaker 2: thing here is that balance is key. This really helps us,
Speaker 2: I think, clear out the maze around money and align
Speaker 2: our behavior to a broader goal without feeling overwhelmed by
Speaker 2: our current circumstances or feeling overwhelmed by the potential hypotheticals
Speaker 2: for the future. This is like a great system to
Speaker 2: be like, Okay, I know where my money is going.
Speaker 2: I know that it is balanced. I know that one
Speaker 2: slice of the pie is not overtaking the others. I
Speaker 2: also really want you to be realistic about your finances,
Speaker 2: which means swapping out irrational appraisals of your situation with
Speaker 2: logic and truth. I heard from this listener the other day.
Speaker 2: He was like, no matter what, I'm constantly stressed about money.
Speaker 2: She was telling me about how she had a relative
Speaker 2: pass away. She got something like twenty thousand dollars. Obviously
Speaker 2: I'm keeping her anonymous, but yeah, she got this huge
Speaker 2: windfall of cash. And she was like, all throughout my
Speaker 2: life I thought that once that would happen, I would
Speaker 2: be okay, And yet I'm still stressed. So when you
Speaker 2: start to get paralyzed, when you start to feel overwhelmed,
Speaker 2: I have a checklist for you to basically determine whether
Speaker 2: your current worries are based on circumstances that are actually
Speaker 2: happening or their future fears. And if it's based on
Speaker 2: something that's currently happening, you can problem solve it. If
Speaker 2: it's based on future fears. Then you need to manage
Speaker 2: not actually your money, but your anxiety towards your money.
Speaker 2: So if you check all these boxes, that really gives
Speaker 2: you permission to worry about money another day when something changes.
Speaker 2: So I have a steady income that covers my basic needs,
Speaker 2: yes or no. I can pay my bills on time,
Speaker 2: yes or no. My debt is under control. I have
Speaker 2: an emergency fund that could cover me if things drastically changed.
Speaker 2: There are no immediate financial crises like a redundancy or
Speaker 2: unexpected large expenses that I need to address right now.
Speaker 2: If you answered yes, you can take a pause for
Speaker 2: a second. The reality of your situation is that you
Speaker 2: don't need to be worrying right now. If one of
Speaker 2: those is a no, then you can start to think
Speaker 2: about it solution because you are now experiencing objective financial stress,
Speaker 2: and we already really spoke about some of the strategies
Speaker 2: for that. But there really is a way through. I
Speaker 2: promise you. I promise you. I've seen people in serious
Speaker 2: debt pull it together, pull themselves out of it, still
Speaker 2: find help, find success. I know that money is so
Speaker 2: uniquely stressful during this decade because it never feels like
Speaker 2: we have enough because we are just getting our financial footing.
Speaker 2: But I also know that many of us are in
Speaker 2: the same boat. About seventy two percent of us, based
Speaker 2: on recent estimates by the American Psychological Association, are thinking
Speaker 2: and worrying about money. So take solace that you are
Speaker 2: not alone. You're definitely not behind, you are definitely not
Speaker 2: isolated in your fears. Please try and prioritize your mental
Speaker 2: health throughout this all because money comes and goes. I know,
Speaker 2: I say, I know, I said that. I don't like
Speaker 2: when people say that, but it's true. There will be
Speaker 2: times when you're doing better in times when things aren't
Speaker 2: going as well. But your mental state, your psychological well being,
Speaker 2: is not always something that you can recover as easily
Speaker 2: as money. It is a much more fruitful investment to
Speaker 2: invest in your mental health than anything that money can buy.
Speaker 2: Because once your mental health, I think, really slips, it
Speaker 2: does take so much time, I think, to help yourself
Speaker 2: get back on track. So talk to your friends about it,
Speaker 2: connect with others over their own worries, find people in
Speaker 2: the same situation. Don't neglect your self care because there
Speaker 2: is a lot that is free and affordable that is
Speaker 2: going to still help you feel great without making you
Speaker 2: even more financially stressed. You know, a walk in the park,
Speaker 2: a swim in the ocean, a guided meditation that's all free,
Speaker 2: a yoga video on YouTube, some deep breaths. You know,
Speaker 2: breathing is free, a glass of water is free. Money
Speaker 2: and mental health don't always mix that well. But also,
Speaker 2: if you're in your twenties, you are just at the beginning,
Speaker 2: and I think the most crucial thing for you to
Speaker 2: do is to get an understanding of the ways that
Speaker 2: you emotionally relate to money during this decade. That is
Speaker 2: one of the best tips and steps that you need
Speaker 2: for a financially independent future, and I really hope that
Speaker 2: you find it. So thank you so much for listening
Speaker 2: to today's episode. Although it is close to an hour long,
Speaker 2: I do feel like I missed some things because you
Speaker 2: just get so wrapped up sometimes in the topic and
Speaker 2: in your approach to it. So if there is something
Speaker 2: else that you want to talk about that you think
Speaker 2: could be added to this conversation, please shoot me a damn.
Speaker 2: I'd love to do a follow up episode based on
Speaker 2: your stories, based on your thoughts. Make sure that you
Speaker 2: are following along on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are
Speaker 2: listening right now, give us a five star review. If
Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, send it to someone that you
Speaker 2: love that you think could benefit from it, and, as always,
Speaker 2: until next time, stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself,
Speaker 2: and we will talk very very soon,