1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. We have one more live show coming up 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: this fall. On Thursday, October six, we will be talking 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: about the Reynolds pamphlet at Hudson Mercantile in New York City. 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: This is an all ages show, but we are talking 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: about Alexander Hamilton's story at Affair, so judge your own 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: family's ages accordingly. If you'd like to get tickets, you 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: can go to New York Comic Con dot com, Slash 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: Events Slash n y c C Dash Presents. You do 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: not need a New York Comic Con badge to attend 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: this show. It is open to the public. I am 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: Scott and I'm Ben and we're from Car Stuff. We're 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: the podcast that covers everything that flutes, flies, swimsboard drives, adventures, thrills, chills, literally, planes, 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: trains and automobiles. That's right. And you can find all 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: of our episodes on Google Play, Spotify, iTunes, and really 15 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: anywhere else you get your podcast. Welcome to stuph you 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: missed in history class from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frying and I'm 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:14,919 Speaker 1: Tracy Wilson. Tracy, what is that time of year? Again? 19 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: Is that time Autumn, it's the best time of year, 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: not just Autumn, but Halloween any time. So as we 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: get into October, for any of our new listeners that 22 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: might not know, we can talk about some fun spooks 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: and haunts and scary stories. We can't talk about them 24 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: year round, there's no law against it, but we like 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: to to get some extra spooky stuff going on here 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: as we get into the Halloween season. Makes a special point. Uh. Yeah, 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: it's a special enough point that for for long time 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: listeners last year when literally the first two podcasts in 29 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: October we're not Halloween, some people got real mad. And 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: today's topic is one that we often get requests for. Uh. 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: And it's a little bit tricky, as many stories along 32 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: these lines can be, because a lot of the infra 33 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: nation is not just apocryphal, it is flat out made up. Um. 34 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: But we're going to talk about how the legend of 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: the Bell Witch became a well known part of American lore. 36 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: But first we are going to indulge in the fall 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: fantasy of talking about the alleged paranormal story as it 38 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: is often told. So the primary account of the Bell 39 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: family and what happened on their Tennessee land is a 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: book that was written in eight four by Martin van 41 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: Buren Ingram, and it's entitled and Authenticated History of the 42 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Famous Bell Witch. But that book was written more than 43 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: seventy five years after the events of the story, and 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: even in the introduction it kind of sets up this 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: scenario that makes it impossible to refute. Ingram claimed that 46 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: he was working from an account that was written by 47 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: a member of the family, William Bell, and that the 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: family had declined to publish that account while any of 49 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: the involved parties were still living, but that he had 50 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: come in and you know, managed to to make this 51 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: deal and and promised that he would tell the true story. 52 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: By the way that that manuscript that he claimed to 53 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: have used, there's no evidence of it ever existing. Uh. 54 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: But he also and when I say he, I mean 55 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: Ingram also acknowledges that many people had already come to 56 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: the conclusion that the entire haunting was a hoax, possibly 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: perpetrated by members of the Bell family for some sort 58 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: of financial gain, but he dismisses that by describing how 59 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: William's account was written in an effort to clear the 60 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: family name and prove once and for all that the 61 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: whole thing really happened. It's one of the things that 62 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: once he lays it all out there, like the rebuttal 63 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: is sort of nah. Right. So first, we're going to 64 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: talk about the story as it is laid out in 65 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: that book, and then we will talk about it from 66 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: a more skeptical perspective. The story all starts with the 67 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: family patriarch, John Bell, who was born in Halifax County, 68 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: North Carolina in seventeen fifty. He apprenticed as a cooper 69 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: for a while, but eventually decided to become a farmer. 70 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: At the age of thirty two, he got married to 71 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: Lucy Williams, who was twenty years younger than he was. Yeah, 72 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: that was one of those things that when I first 73 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: did the math there, I got real creeped out, and 74 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: then I was like, oh, this can't be right, and 75 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 1: then I kept looking at other sources and it kept 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: lining up. Uh. The couple had their first child, a 77 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: son named Jesse, eight years later, so at that point 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: Lucy would have been twenty in sevente and the Bells 79 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: initially did really well with their farm in Edgecomb County, 80 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: North Carolina, and they also had three more sons over 81 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: the course of several years, starting in eighteen o one 82 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: theo they started to have issues with their crops, and 83 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: eventually they decided to leave that farm in North Carolina 84 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: and moved west, as so many of their friends and 85 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: acquaintances had already done so. In eighteen o four, John, 86 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: Lucy and their children, along with a slave named Chloe 87 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: who had been given to the couple by Lucy's father 88 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: when they got married and Chloe's eight children, made their 89 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: way to at River, Tennessee. This is near the area 90 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: that's now known as Adams, Tennessee, which is not far 91 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: from Nashville, and the Bells were welcomed into the community 92 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: where John bought a home and some property that included 93 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: both barnes and an orchard, and the family established their farm, 94 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: and they were again pretty prosperous, and everyone really adored Lucy. 95 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 1: That comes up over and over that everyone just loved 96 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: this woman. And over time Bell added to his landholdings 97 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: and he became one of the most wealthy, influential, and 98 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: respected men in the area. As the farm got bigger, 99 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: as it is so often the case, the family did too. 100 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: The Bells had several more children, including a daughter born 101 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: in eighteen oh five named Elizabeth. She was called Betsy, 102 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: and she becomes central to this whole haunting legend. After 103 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: thirteen years in Red River, things started to shift from 104 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: the happy prosperity that the Bell family had enjoyed up 105 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: to that point. Initially, the first thing that happened was 106 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: that John Bell saw a weird animal. He spotted a 107 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: creature out in the cornfield that he would later describe 108 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: as having a dog's body and a rabbit's head. He 109 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: shot at it and he missed. And one of his sons, 110 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: Drew Bell, saw a massive bird on a fence near 111 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: the home. When he went to get a gun to 112 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: shoot at it, the bird, which he thought was a turkey, 113 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: revealed itself to be a strange bird that he just 114 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: couldn't identify. Betsy, at one point, was walking in the 115 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: woods with the younger children of the family one evening 116 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: when she saw what appeared to be a little girl 117 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: in a green dress swinging in the trees. That girl 118 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: was not actually there. And then one of their servants 119 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: named Dean, claimed that he had seen a black dog 120 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: on his regular walks to visit whose wife, who was 121 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: also a slave and was owned by a friend of 122 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: the family named Alex Gunn, and this dog would allegedly 123 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: trot along in front of Dean while he walked over 124 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: to the gun home, and then the dog would vanish 125 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: just as they arrived there. The next strain ch happening 126 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: was a variety of tapping noises inside the family home, 127 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: and they couldn't figure out what the source of these 128 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: noises was. These noises had actually been going on for 129 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: some time, and at first they had been attributed to 130 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: much more ordinary things like the children being mischievous, but 131 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: it continued to get more frequent and louder, and there 132 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: was a faint voice that the members allegedly started to hear. 133 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: It was too feeble for anyone to make out the 134 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: words or the songs, but they sounded like they were 135 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: coming from an elderly woman, and according to the Bell children, 136 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: their betting began to be pulled off of them in 137 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: the night. And they also reported that animals, possibly rats, 138 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: could be heard chewing on their bed posts, but that 139 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: whenever the noises were investigated and someone lit a candle 140 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: or tried to look, nothing was actually there. Then they 141 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: started to report that they heard what sounded like dogs 142 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: fighting in the house, and then there were sounds of 143 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: chains on the floor and then it snal. Creepier noises 144 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: were also detailed in William Bell's account, including what sounded 145 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: like the smacking of lips and occasional gulping. Those are 146 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: like the sort of great details for me, Like that's 147 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: such a good creepy noise detail. Like if you were 148 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: just lying in bed and you heard what sounded like 149 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: someone gulping or smacking their lips near you, wouldn't that 150 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: be delightfully creepy? And at this point, the the symptoms 151 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: of their haunting are kind of like a haunting shamorgas board. 152 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: It's like we're just gonna have a buffet things happening, 153 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: and then we're gonna have new strange things and then 154 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: different strange things. Yeah. And the next strange thing was 155 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: that William recounted that he felt as though someone had 156 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: grabbed his hair in the night and began to lift 157 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: him off the bed by his head with it. So 158 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: this this elderly woman's frail voice we've been talking about 159 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: that have been too uh faint to make out, not 160 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: so much the case when speaking to Betsy, this which 161 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: is said to have given some very clear direction that 162 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: Betsy should not marry her intended which was a boy 163 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: named Joshua Gardner. And we're gonna get back to that 164 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: in a little bit, but before we talk about how 165 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: the family handled all of this wacky stuff that was happening. 166 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: Like Tracy said, it is sort of the haunting smorgas Board. 167 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna pause for a word from one of our 168 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: fantastic sponsors. Alrighty. That sponsor is Periscope Data. Periscope Data 169 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: makes it easy for you to lighten your workload by 170 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: giving you answers immediately. You can save time with faster queries, 171 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: faster visualization, and faster sharing. 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So getting back to the Bell's, 196 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: John Bell, the patriarch of the family, started to have 197 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: some medical issues during all of this, and his condition 198 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: gradually worsened. Initially, it was described as quote a stiffness 199 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: of tongue. So when he was having an episode of 200 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: this illness, he couldn't eat, and he described it as 201 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: feeling as though a stick was lodged sideways in his 202 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: mouth between his cheeks, preventing him from eating, so when 203 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: he would try to eat, the food would kind of 204 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: fall right back out. At first, John was encouraging the 205 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: family to keep the strange happenings at the farm and 206 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: his mystery illness under wraps, but eventually he disclosed what 207 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: was going on to a neighbor and friend named James Johnson. 208 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: Johnson and his wife spent a night at the Bell 209 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: home at John Bell's request, and they were hoping that 210 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: they could maybe shed some light on this situation and 211 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: offer an outsider's perspective as to what's going on. And 212 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: after leading the family in prayer and then retiring to bed, 213 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: Johnson and his wife witnessed the same phenomena that the 214 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: Bells had been experiencing, including hearing all of the noises 215 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: and racket having their bed covers pulled off of them 216 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: as they slept. Uh and Mr Johnson apparently had the 217 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: presence of mind to try to speak with the mysterious entity, 218 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: and he determined that a it was intelligent and be 219 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: it would cease its actions when spoken to, and then 220 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: see that John Bell should no longer keep this situation secret, 221 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,599 Speaker 1: but should seek the help of the community. So a 222 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: lot of people started going to the Bell Home to 223 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 1: visit and to investigate this spirit, who at this point 224 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: people were saying was called Kate, And really all they 225 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: were figuring out was that Kate really hated John Bell 226 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: and seemed like basically a gossipy, busybody and not an 227 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: actual problem. Her manifestations did start to become stronger, and 228 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: it became clear that she was speaking Bible verses and 229 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: singing hymns. When asked who she was and what she wanted, 230 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: she replied, I am a spirit. I was once very happy, 231 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: but have been disturbed later after she grew more adept 232 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: at communicating, the spirit apparently said that she had been 233 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: buried nearby, but that her grave had been disturbed, and 234 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: that one of her teeth was under the Bell Home 235 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: and she was looking for it. Yeah, there's a whole 236 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: whackadoodle story about uh an animal's head showing up in 237 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: a tooth, falling out of it and into a crack 238 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: in the floor. Um, but we don't know well. And 239 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: this whole thing we were talking about before the break 240 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: that was like and then there were noises, and then 241 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: there was singing, and then there was levitation, and then 242 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: there was someone grabbing my hair. I'm like, none of 243 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: these things are really creepy to me. But then we 244 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: get to this part where she's like, and my tooth 245 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: is under your house, and I'm like, all right, come 246 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: out out of the story. Ghostly dedistry is where Crazy 247 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: draws the line. Uh. And this which though was devoted 248 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: to John's wife Lucy, just like everyone else, she loved Lucy. 249 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: And as we said, she had come to be known 250 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: as Kate, and this consequently has associated her with a 251 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: neighbor of the Bells, a woman named Kate Bats. And 252 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Kate Bats a little bit 253 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: later in the episode. And there's even the suggestion that she, 254 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: this disembodied voice claimed herself to be Kate Bats. But 255 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: whatever her true origin, whether it was Kate Bats or 256 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: just a mystery person, she became downright famous in the area, 257 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: and for a time she almost seems to have been 258 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: seen as a good influence. People were just afraid enough 259 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: of her that they lived good, honest lives. According to 260 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: Ingram's writings quote everybody got good. The wicked left off swearing, 261 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: lying and whiskey drinking. The avaricious were careful not to 262 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: covet or lay hands on that which belonged to their neighbors, 263 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: lest Kate might tell on them. No man allowed his 264 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: right hand to do anything that the left might be 265 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: ashamed of. And the story of what the spirit was 266 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: troubled about, i e. That that lost tooth, among other things, 267 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: did not stay consistent, though, so later she told a 268 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: visitor that she had once had a great deal of wealth, 269 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: but had buried it, and she would only tell Betsy 270 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: Bell the location of this buried treasure. She later eventually 271 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: told several men in the family as well as close 272 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: friends of the family, on the stipulation that they give 273 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: every dollar that was buried to Betsy. And these men 274 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: went out and they dug, and they dug in the 275 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: named spot, which was this very tricky area. I think 276 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: it was near a stream, but it was like a 277 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: there was a lot of heavy rock over it. And 278 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: they found nothing, and the spirit uh. When they reported 279 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: back to the house that no, there's nothing in that spot, 280 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: the spirit allegedly laughed at them that night and taunted 281 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: them for being so easily duped. In eighteen eighteen, as 282 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: the stories of Kate were becoming a lot more well 283 00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: known in the area. The church excommunicated John Bell so times. 284 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: This is reported as being due to his association with 285 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: supernatural events, but there was a more mundane element to 286 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: the story we're going to talk about in a bit. Yeah, 287 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: and I will give you a slight spoiler alert that, 288 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: for my money, the reason he was excommunicated is way 289 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: more troubling than any paranormal thing. Uh. There was also 290 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: allegedly a notable human visitor to the Bell farm in 291 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen. Claim is that Major General Andrew Jackson came 292 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: to stay and during the War of eighteen twelve, the 293 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: three eldest bell Sons had served under Jackson at the 294 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: Battle of New Orleans. Jackson had heard, according again to 295 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: this tale of the alleged haunting, and even made a 296 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: joke that the which must be holding them up when 297 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: the horses he was that were part of his his 298 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: travel group suddenly stopped as they approached the Bell farm, 299 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: and according to Ingram's accounts of the visit, this entourage 300 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: that was following Andrew Jackson was intending to spend a 301 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: week there, but they left after just one night. She 302 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: went on to spend different yarns to subsequent visitors to 303 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: the Bell home, claiming at one point to be the 304 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: spirit of a young girl and another to be the 305 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: ghost of a family friend's stepmother. Nothing was consistent, much 306 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: like all the earlier symptoms of the haunting, and it 307 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: seems like things were shifting away from jovial toying into 308 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: being a little more sinister. At one point, when family 309 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: friend William Porter was staying at the house, Kate claimed 310 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: to want to get in the bed with him, and 311 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: he said that the bed cover slowly twisted into a 312 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: human shape next to him and sort of curled up 313 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: next to him, and thinking at that point that he 314 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: had the witch captured, Porter picked up all of those 315 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: bedclothes and intended to throw them in the fire, but 316 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: they began to emit a really foul smell and he 317 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: dropped them on the floor. In September of eighteen twenty, 318 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: Lucy Bell had pleurisy, and the spirit alledly acted as 319 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: a nursemaid, singing to her and checking in on her 320 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: and what's described as a very loving way. According to 321 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: William's account, Kate even brought hazelnuts and grapes to the 322 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: sick woman, and the manifestations uh then had shifted from irritating. 323 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: We said, they kind of ratchet it up and we're 324 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: less jovial. But then they became downright chilling. So Betsy 325 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: Bell began experiencing attacks that hearkened back to the descriptions 326 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: of spirit torture from the Salem witch trials that had 327 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: happened more than a hundred years prior to the events 328 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: on the Bell farm. She described the sensation of feeling 329 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: like she was being pricked with pins and as though 330 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: she was being slapped by a disembodied, non corporeal hand, 331 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: and her friends actually said that they witnessed welts appearing 332 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: on her face and saw at times even her shoes 333 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: being forcibly pulled off of her body. The attacks on 334 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: Betsy slowly subsided, but as they did, John Bell's health 335 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: really deteriorated. He started having spells that lasted a day 336 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: or two, during which his tongue would once again seem 337 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: to stiffen and his face would go into spasms. Once 338 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: these spells had passed, he seemed to be in fine 339 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: health and he went about his life, but the incidents 340 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: became more frequent and longer and more severe over time. Additionally, 341 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: John Bell was tormented in a more assaulted way. He 342 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: started to experience this feeling of being slapped in much 343 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: the same way that Betsy had described, as well as 344 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: also having his shirt shoes jerked off his feet repeatedly 345 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: as he attempted to walk in the fields. On the 346 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: morning of December nineteen twenty, John Bell could not be 347 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: roused from sleep. A vial was found near his body 348 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: that contained a dark liquid, and according to William's story, 349 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: the family sent for a doctor from Port Royal, and 350 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: the spirit could be heard saying that the family patriarch 351 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: would never rise from his bed again. This part's really 352 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: hard for me, So if you're an animal person, uh, 353 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: maybe don't listen for the next twenty seconds. The remaining 354 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: contents of that mystery vial were tested by giving it 355 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: to a cat, and that cat, of course, quickly died. 356 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: The remaining bits of liquid were thrown in the fire 357 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: and then produced a blue flame. John Bell died on 358 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: December twenty, and the witch is said to have sung 359 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: joyously throughout his burial there on the farm. After John's death, 360 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: the spirit is said to have largely stopped in her activities, 361 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: although she lingered into eighteen twenty one before she told 362 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: Lucy that she would go but return another seven years later. 363 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: Of course, she stayed true to that in uh Ingram's 364 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: book and appeared at the farm again in eight So 365 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 1: when she reappeared, she started doing the same sorts of 366 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: things as she had been doing early on in eighteen seventeen, 367 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: tapping around the house pulling covers off of beds. Uh. 368 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: But this only went on for two weeks and then 369 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: Kate once again vanished. So at that point William, him 370 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: his brother Joel, and their mother Lucy were the only 371 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: people still living in the house, and they had all 372 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: agreed to ignore the spirit and not engage with it. 373 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: And apparently that worked, as she left the Bell family 374 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: seemingly for good. And now that we've given some of 375 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: the highlights of the Bell Witches time in Tennessee as 376 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: based on William Bell's alleged recollection, we will talk about 377 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: things from a more critical perspective. 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That is square space 409 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: dot com with the offer code history to get ten 410 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: percent off your first purchase squarespace set your website apart. 411 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: There are a lot of theories about the reality of 412 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: the Bell Witch and what was actually going on at 413 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: this farm if it was a ruse. One of the 414 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: theories is that someone wanted to break up the relationship 415 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: between Betsy Bell and her fiance, Joshua Gardner, and if 416 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: that had been the motivation, the ruse was in fact successful, 417 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: Betsy was frightened enough by the witch's admonitions against her 418 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: marriage to Gardner that she broke up with him. In 419 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: One of the contemporary explanations, and one that we alluded 420 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: to in the intro to the episode, was that two 421 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: of the Bell boys had learned ventriloquism when they had 422 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: traveled to New Orleans on trading trips, and then they 423 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: had taught Betsy the skill, and the three of them 424 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: got together to basically want to make hopes. But there 425 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: were some times during these events of the alleged haunting 426 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: when one or the other of the boys was away 427 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: from the family home, and then there were also times 428 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: when all three of them were present in plain sight 429 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: when the noises and the witch's voice were heard. And 430 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: Betsy was, by all accounts a lovely girl and very 431 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: bright as well, who was admired by virtually all of 432 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: the young men in the area, and there have been 433 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: theories that a romantic rival may have been behind the hauntings. 434 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: And while the issues began when she was only twelve, 435 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: by the time she had been moved to break up 436 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: with her longtime sweetheart Joshua, she was sixteen. One of 437 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: the more likely suspects in the whole suitor theory is 438 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: a man named Richard Powell. Richard had been the Bell 439 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: children's teacher, but as Betsy grew toward adulthood, he seemed 440 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: to take a romantic interest in her, and he was 441 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: also a close friend of the family. And one of 442 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: the things that makes Powell look so suspicious is that 443 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: while he did not apparently tell his friends in the 444 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: area he was married, his wife Esther was almost twenty 445 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: years older than he was, and she died of unspecified 446 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: causes the same year that Betsy finally broke off her 447 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: engagement to Joshua Gardener. And uh, I just want to 448 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: note that while this is mentioned in several texts with 449 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: a citation of the records of Robertson County, Tennessee, I 450 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: found this little bit of information too late in the 451 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: game to actually get eyes on those records first confirmation, 452 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: but it does show up in multiple different accounts. Richard 453 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: Powell started to openly pursue Betsy after her ties to 454 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: Gardner were severed, and he and Betsy were married in 455 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: eight four. Richard died seventeen years later, and Betsy remained 456 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: a widow for the rest of her life until her 457 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: death in eighteen nine. So yes, some people think that 458 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: that sort of chain of events points circumstantially to Richard 459 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: Powell having orchestrated the whole thing. Uh. And remember that 460 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: thing about John Bell being excommunicated from the church. It 461 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: did not have to do with anything paranormal. It actually 462 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: had to do with some shady lending practices and usually 463 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: in relation to the sale of slaves. So John Bell 464 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: was basically making some shady business deals and the the 465 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: church did not like that, so that is why he 466 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: was excommunicated. It did not have anything to do with 467 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: demonic possession. Another incongruity from the Ingram book, which is 468 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: the primary source that most other bell Witch authors draw from, 469 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: is that visit from Andrew Jackson. There's never been anything 470 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: to document Jackson making this trip. And Andrew Jackson never 471 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: wrote about it in his personal diaries. One would think 472 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: that such a novel experience would merit at least a 473 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: line or two in a diary. Yeah, And as for 474 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: Kate Batt's, it's kind of a world of no uh. 475 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: While there have been a vast array of rumors about her, 476 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: including that she and John Bell had a bad business 477 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: dealing that led her to curse him, and another that 478 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: she was in fact pregnant by John Bell and that 479 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: he killed her, she actually died decades after John Bell, 480 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: so she could not have been vengeance haunting him, and 481 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,239 Speaker 1: he definitely did not kill her. It does appear, at 482 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: least in the Angram account that Kate Batts was kind 483 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: of an outsider in the community and was viewed with 484 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: some suspicion. She was loud and brash, which for a 485 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: woman in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century basically 486 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 1: met scary. Rumors of witchcraft had been attached to her 487 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: at various points in time, but more because it seems 488 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: like she was peculiar and not because of any actual 489 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: malicious behavior, So it seems like she was really more 490 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: of a convenient figure for the people making up this 491 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: story to pin on her rather than somebody that actually 492 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: was a ghost. And there was even in that first 493 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: account the link between the two suggesting that Kate Bat's 494 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: was somehow manifesting the various events through witchcraft. But apparently 495 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: even when the Bell witch was being perceived as a 496 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: good thing, Kate Bat's was incensed to be associated with it, 497 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: So that idea really doesn't hold much water. Uh. And 498 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: she was also we should point out Lucy Bell's niece, 499 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: she was related to the Bells, her father was actually 500 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: Lucy Bell's brother. And there's also no record of this 501 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 1: business deal gone bad between her and John Bell that 502 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: instigated this ill will, And there's no real motive for 503 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: her to go to so much trouble to pester this family. 504 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: On top of all these facts that don't really add up, 505 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: there's the matter of the Ingram Book and its truthfulness. Ingram, 506 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: a newspaper man, was writing it two generations removed from 507 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: the actual events. We always talk about how unreliable even 508 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: fresh eyewitness accounts can be. So even if he did 509 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: have a manuscript that really was written by William Bell, 510 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: that manuscript would have been written, according to Ingram's own 511 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: introduction in the eighteen forties, twenty years after the then 512 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: adolescent William had experienced the so called Bell Witch events. 513 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: So it's like number one, a book Ingram was writing 514 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: much later after William Bell had allegedly written it down, 515 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: twenty years after it had purportedly happened. And there's also 516 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: the possibility that Ingram assembled this tale as a deceptive 517 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: fiction to capitalize on its sensational nature. There are just 518 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: enough verifiable details about the family that it might convince readers, 519 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: while the supernatural elements of it are entirely unverifiable. None 520 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: of it really passes muster as a true historical account 521 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: of this alleged haunting. And then, I mean, this reminds 522 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: me of when we were talking about and Bonnie and 523 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: Mary read uh. One of the things that seems the 524 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: most telling about how this this whole account is that 525 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: Ingram was incredibly insistent about how it was completely indisputable. 526 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: Here is a passage that we're going to read. It's 527 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: particularly unrelenting in how no one with any integrity could 528 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: possibly ever doubt it. Knowing the character of the men 529 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: and women who testify to these things, no one can 530 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: disbelieve them or believe that they would have willfully misrepresented 531 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: the facts. Nor can it be reasonably said that so 532 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: many reputable witnesses had fallen into an abnormal state of 533 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: mind and were so easily deceived in all of their 534 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: rigid investigations. A man may be arraigned for trial on 535 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: the charge of murder, the court and jury knowing nothing 536 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: about the facts and circumstances, but they are bound by 537 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: both physical and moral law to believe and find the 538 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: man guilty on the testimony of reputable witnesses detailing the 539 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: facts and circumstances, and yet may form no opinion or 540 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,239 Speaker 1: idea as to the state of mind or cause that 541 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: prompted the prisoner to commit the murder. So it is 542 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: in this instance the testimony is convincing of the truth 543 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: of the wonderful phenomena at John Bell's. But the motive 544 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: or cause is beyond our comprehension, and to this extent, 545 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: the facts must be accepted. It really happened, y'all. You're 546 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: horrible if you doubt it. Of course, today the Bell 547 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: which is a moneymaker. People love a good haunting story, 548 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: so it gets told and retold, and the details shift 549 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: and change, just like who we actoplasm Aside from the 550 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: dates associated with things like births and deaths, writings about 551 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: the Bell which often are really different in their details. 552 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: I remember somebody telling me a story about the Bell, 553 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: which I think when I was in college, that had 554 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: basically a completely different cast of characters. There, yeah, there. 555 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: There was even a book written recently by a clairvoyant 556 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: that dispelled the longstanding myth that the family was cursed 557 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: uh and this instead indicated that the land that they 558 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: had moved to in Tennessee was the source of this curse. 559 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: Not only has this story been used as an ingredient 560 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: in numerous films, but also a variety of quote documentary 561 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: examinations of the paranormal. For a small fee, you can 562 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: tour the Bell Which Cave, which is on the property 563 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: and as allegedly haunted, possibly by Kate herself, So if 564 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: you're hankering to try to meet her, you can. It's 565 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: probably what you're gonna see as a cave. Yeah. Yeah, 566 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: it's one of those things there you'll have people talk 567 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: about like all of the various components of it and 568 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: how you know the blue flame. One of the things 569 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: that's a little more science based is uh that when 570 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: they threw that that liquid from that vial into the 571 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: fire and it burned blue, that that could be an 572 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: indication of arsenic so that perhaps someone had been systematically 573 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: poisoning John Bell. But again it's unclear who might have 574 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: been doing that, although apparently he was kind of a 575 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: weasel in some business dealings, so we don't know. But 576 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: it definitely doesn't when you really start to look at 577 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: the facts of things, all of the elements that get 578 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: sence sensationalized as super spooky don't really hold up to scrutiny. 579 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: So that's the scoop on the Bell. Which do you 580 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: also have some listener mail? I do have listener mail, 581 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: and this isn't so much male. It is a series 582 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: of weeets about our recent episode from Salt Like Comic Con, 583 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: where we talked about historical fiction. Uh, it was a 584 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: discussion about some sexist things. It was kind of inaccurate, 585 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: which was troubling to both Tracy and we're both troubled 586 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: and frustrated. Yeah, so I'm just going to read them 587 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: all as one long narrative because it's multiple tweets. I 588 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: don't want to like out this person. I don't want 589 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: them to get dog piled on. But their perception was 590 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: very incorrect, so they say, hey, missed in history. Listening 591 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 1: to the Salt Like Comic Con podcast, couldn't avoid noticing 592 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: the gender split on attitude toward research on that stage. 593 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: It seems equal parts astonishing and predictable that the women said, yeah, 594 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: I do tons of work to make sure everything's right 595 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: because I take it so seriously, and the men said, no, 596 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: I just kind of wing it on Wikipedia. Also, I 597 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: tried to avoid needing to do it. And my favorite, 598 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: I make my wife do that. I'm sure she goes uncredited. 599 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: Men are allowed to be so much more casual in 600 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: their approach to their craft. The level level of privilege 601 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: it takes is staggering. The one author who said he 602 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: likes your podcast because it deals with figures and moments 603 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: he wouldn't otherwise. Research made me yell at my phone. Really, 604 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: a male author wouldn't seek out forgotten and predominantly woman 605 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: centric history, Gas, I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you. I 606 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 1: wonder how his characters break down across the gender spectrum. Anyway, 607 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure you can't respond for the sake of being politic, 608 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: but please know we heard and noticed that, and I'd 609 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: love to have been able to see your polite poker 610 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: faces along with the podcast. Keep up the good work. 611 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: There's so much to unpack here, Holly, Oh my goodness 612 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: you have. Oh that's could not be a more accurate, 613 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: a less accurate characterization of what was actually taking place, 614 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: So Pama. First of all, there were actually two different 615 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: male writers on the panel. One, Brian McClellan, described himself 616 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: as more of a Wikipedia researcher, where he would like 617 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: he was writing historically inspired fantasy, and so what he 618 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: would do is like quick checks of historical bits to 619 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: kind of inform that, and then also reading a lot 620 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 1: of history that would that would sort of make its 621 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: way ultimately into his books without maybe directly intending it, 622 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: he sort of discover historical parallels. The other person, Brian Young, 623 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: it's constantly surrounded by history books and primary sources, including 624 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: reading a bunch of World War One era and newspapers 625 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 1: and their ads for his work. So the characterization that 626 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: the woman on the panel was really detail oriented and 627 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: the men were not is not really reflective of the 628 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 1: actual panel, correct. And I think it's one of those 629 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: things that when this came up and Tracy and I 630 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: were discussing it, I kind of feel like there's there's 631 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: no way to win. If it had been split the 632 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: other way and it were a woman that said, oh, 633 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm I just write epic fantasy and I don't do 634 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: hard history and I sometimes use Wikipedia to check things, 635 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: the response would be, oh, she's lazy and stupid. Women 636 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 1: can't do history right. Like, there's no way to win. 637 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: And Brian was very clear at the front, like he said, 638 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: this comes with the caveat that I don't I'm casually 639 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: using history right, And that was really one of the 640 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: reasons you and I were both really excited to have 641 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: him on the panel to talk about the many different 642 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: ways that history makes its way into books, that it's 643 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: not just a historical novel about the you know, the 644 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: Gallipoli campaign, Like, that's not the only type of historical 645 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: fiction that there is, correct, there is definitely gender bias 646 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: to talk about in that. Uh, Like women feel like 647 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: they have to be twice as prepared because they're they're 648 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: going to be under a higher level of scrutiny. And 649 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: that's valid. Um, but like, that's that's not really what 650 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: was in play in that part of the discussion in 651 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,919 Speaker 1: the podcast. Also, Uh, Brian McClellan does think his wife 652 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: and the acknowledgments of his books, Yeah, yeah, And he 653 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: was pretty clear on the panel that part of the 654 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: reason that he will occasionally turn to her to look 655 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: things up is because she loves digging into that stuff, 656 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: whereas to him, he would rather just keep writing very quickly. 657 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't like to stop and do research in the middle. 658 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: And it seems like a very good relationship for them. Um. 659 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: As far as Brian Young saying we brought up things 660 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: he would never find a research, it's not because he's 661 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: not doing research. No one person can hit all of 662 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: the things. And that comment was also not about women, Like, 663 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: I feel like that was a piece that reinforced this 664 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: idea that our podcast is mostly about women, when in 665 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: reality it seems that way to people, but the numbers 666 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: never reflect a mostly about women focus, like and then 667 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: the examples that he cited of episodes that he listened 668 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: to over and over while writing books were not even 669 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: our episodes that were about women. So that was a 670 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: little frustrating to me and hurt my heart a little 671 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: bit because Brian is a longtime friend of this show. 672 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: He was in our first live show that was about 673 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: the children's Illustrated History of presidential assassination. Knowing him personally, like, 674 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: he is definitely an ally and somebody who takes constructive 675 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: steps to make the world better and to be actively 676 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: anti sexist and anti actively anti racist. So to hear 677 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: somebody take that out of context from what he said 678 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 1: in the panel was really frustrating. Yeah, yeah, I mean 679 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: you said it more eloquently than I probably would put together. 680 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: I said many times both on the show and at 681 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: our live shows, Brian is like a brother to me, 682 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: so and I know him to be one of the 683 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: best humans. As Tracy said, he takes such steps in 684 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: such care to make the world a better place that 685 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 1: it was like, man, Yeah, and the last thing that 686 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: I definitely wanted to take a moment to say was 687 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: that there was no polite eye rolling and maintaining of 688 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: a poker face during our historical fiction podcast at Salt 689 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: Lake Comic Con. We were I was so grateful to 690 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: all of those authors, and I thought they were all 691 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 1: amazing well. And if any of them had said something 692 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: that we felt like we should challenge, we would have 693 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: challenged it and not sat there and politely rolled our eyes. 694 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: And in fact, in the Q and A session, there 695 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: was that moment where where a panelist said something that 696 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: that was not quite in line with with factual stuff, uh, 697 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: and and we noted that and like, so please don't 698 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: think that if somebody says something that needs to be 699 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: talked about, we're just gonna politely not and roll our 700 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: eyes and not bring it up, because that's not really 701 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: how we work as a show. We're also not going 702 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: to drag our panelists who have agreed to be on 703 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 1: our panel out of the goodness of their hearts, over 704 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: the coals in front of people, like that would be rude. 705 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: But if somebody says something that we have questions about 706 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: our thoughts about her, like, oh, actually, I kind of 707 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: wonder if that really holds up, you know, if that 708 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: is biased in some way that that's probably a thing 709 00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: we would say. Yeah, I hope other people did not 710 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: have that same uh complete disparity of what went down 711 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: yea from their perception of it well. And one of 712 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: the reasons that I wanted to talk about it on 713 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: the show was that it was not a series of 714 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: tweets that all came directly to us. It started with 715 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: a public call out of us. It started with like, 716 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, our Twitter handle in the middle of the 717 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: tweet so that others would see it rather than just 718 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: coming directly to us. So it's like it was a 719 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: public statement about our panel and not a private correspondence 720 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: to us about it. Correct, So that is the scoop. 721 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: I hope we we have dispelled any any misconceptions about 722 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: how that all went and like, yeah, there's definitely gender 723 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: biased to talk about. But having three people on the panel, 724 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: one of whom is a man who does like a 725 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: cursory level of research and the other is a woman 726 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: who does intense research because of the different, vastly different 727 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,439 Speaker 1: types of fiction they are writing, does not mean that's 728 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,240 Speaker 1: not a data set, right, especially when the third person 729 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: on the panel is another man who does a lot 730 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: of detailed historical research in his work. Yeah, so that's 731 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: the scoop on that. Uh. If you would like to 732 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 1: write to us, you can do so at history Podcast 733 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: at how stale works dot com. We are across all 734 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: social media as at miss in History, including Twitter, were 735 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: at mystic History. We're at Facebook dot com slash missed 736 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: in History. We're on Instagram as at mist in History. 737 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: We are on Pinterest as mist in History. We're on 738 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: tumbler as mist in History. Basically, missed in History is 739 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: going to get you there. If you would like to 740 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: do a little bit of research just for fun, you 741 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: can go to our parents site, how stuff works dot com. 742 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: Type in almost anything you can think of in the 743 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: search bar, and you're going to churn up a lot 744 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 1: of results about some interesting articles, probably some quizzes. There's 745 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: lots of content there to explore. You can also visit 746 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: us at missed in History dot com, or you will 747 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: find show notes for every episode that Tracy and I 748 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: have worked done, as well as an archive of every 749 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: episode of the show ever of all time. So we 750 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: encourage you to come and visit us at how stuff 751 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: works dot com and missed in History dot com for 752 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 753 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: how stuff works? Dot com, m