WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 91 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.520 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:28.760 you can make your own decisions. Oh, it could happen 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.560 here is the podcast that you're listening to right now. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.440 And while we normally talk about it could happening here, 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.360 if you've been living in France recently, then some of 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.159 it has been happening to you. I don't know if 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.360 that's a bad introduction. We're talking about the riots that 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:52.800 have recently convulsed large chunks of both European France and 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.760 some of their overseas territories. So we're gonna be chatting 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.680 about that. I've seen a lot of disinfo. There's a 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.960 lot of like people flipping out about guns and stuff, 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.679 and you know, a lot of bad information, people blaming 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.080 it on like Ukrainian weapons sneaking over all that's bullshit. 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.000 But there's a real fascinating history here and the riots 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.640 as much as people specific bad actors have attempted to 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.760 make them into like some new and horrifying thing, It's 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.520 not just like a oh France b riot and thing. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.160 There's like there's like a history. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:27.240 Uh. 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.720 That's that's pretty clear. That explains like why this this 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.119 happened in France this time, why it happened in two 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.520 thousand and five, had happened in what the late eighties? 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.319 Yeah, seven was I think the other big one in 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.520 this company happening yea decades. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.440 We're gonna talk about all of that. Yeah. So so Mia, 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.119 I'm gonna let you take take take the lead here 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:48.800 and I'll chime in pr in. 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:52.400 Yeah. So okay, I guess we should we should basically 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:54.360 briefly talk about, like before we go into this stree, 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.640 like what actually this is so well, I guess it'll 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.640 be two weeks ago when when the goes up, a 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.360 cop was did like a traffic stop of this kid 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.840 in a car and they just put the put a 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.080 gun through the window and shot him. It's really bad. 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.760 There's video of it. If for some reason you want 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:16.799 to see a cop sticking a gun in a car 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.360 and shooting a seventeen year old. It's really bad. This 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:27.280 is kicked off, like I it's it's okay. It's always 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.160 difficult to like measure how intense a riot is. When 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.720 it started, people were I saw people saying it was 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.600 like more intense than like the two thousand and five one. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.080 This is like, you know, we've talked a lot about 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.000 French riding on the show. These specific kinds of riots 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.560 are like by far the largest and most intense like 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:47.720 kinds of riots that happened in France. This is like 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.880 a significant escalation from everything that's been happening, even in 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.760 the last sort of like yeah, seven years, which had 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:55.119 been you know, there have been a lot of riots 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.440 in France recently. These are by far the most intense 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:00.880 in the time I've been writing this. The police killed 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:06.040 a second person by okay, so I'm going to give 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.080 my account of what I think happens. The French police 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.640 are going on like, oh, who can say how this 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.400 person was hit by a projectile? But as best I 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.600 can tell, they shot a guy in the chest with 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.560 a flashball, which is a flashball is like it's effectively 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.280 a grenade launcher that shoots flash bang grenades. Now it's 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.160 supposed to be like a it's a quote unquote less 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.120 lethal munition. But the thing about less lethal munitions is 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:31.959 that I have to shoot people directly with him they die, 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:33.800 And they just fucking killed this guy. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.200 They're less lethal because they are not meant to be 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.120 shot at people. They're meant to have a dispersal effect 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.360 when shot near people. If you shoot people with them. Yeah, 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:43.360 they're very much lethal. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:43.839 Yeah. 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.280 And you know, we talked about in the last episode 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.720 that I did about this, there was another guy who 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.640 thankfully has regained consciousness but was in a coma for 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.120 several months because he was also shot by I think 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.480 he was shot by a maybe I forget I should 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:00.960 have actually looked before I did this, but he was 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.800 shot by like a similar less lethal munition, and he 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.000 thankfully has survived. This guy did not like they just 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.120 killed him. The reporting about it has been terrible, Like 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.120 the Guardian headlines said man struck by man struck by 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.640 projectile let protests, which again, this guy was shot by 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.520 the cops like directly into his chest with one of 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.400 these weapons. So it's been really bad. And you know, 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:29.039 because so again understanding of what's happening here to I 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:30.839 want to go through this. There are sort of like 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:36.400 four broad types of people who rioted France. So okay, 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.120 so the first kind of writer, I think is the 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.760 one where people are like maybe most familiar with, which 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.239 is like the French far left like riots a lot. 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.800 This is mostly anarchists some other people, and that's like 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.560 a kind of standard Parisian riot will be these people rioting, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:52.960 you know, which we talked a bit about sort of 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:54.680 the development of the Black bloc in France, and in 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.240 the last episode we did about this. There's you know, 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.880 there's also sort of like more mainstream, mainstream left, like 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:02.880 trade union groups who will have giant marches and those 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.719 also sometimes turn into riots because they get attacked by 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.800 the police and stuff like that. And those ones tend 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.760 to be larger, like the the trade union ones, have 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.760 more people, but tend to be less riety. There's the 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.960 Jean or the yellow vests, who are mostly people from 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.680 rural areas who either sort of like do roadblocks in 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:23.719 rural areas or they come into cities and do marches 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.160 and riots and they riot pretty intensely. And these three 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.200 groups have started to be, you know, part of what 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.719 we've been seeing in the pension, like reform protests and 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:34.919 like riots have been these groups were starting to work together. 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.320 But there's another group of people in France who riot, 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.080 who are the residents of the bon Luis. I that's 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.200 not how you pronounce it, God damn it. Okay. Before, before, 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:47.800 before I did this, I looked at how you pronounce 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:51.800 it and have now forgotten. It's bond lie that that's 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:52.720 how you well, okay. 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.080 Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna for any advice. 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.719 Unfortunately, like I have to say this word like forty, 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.560 I can't pronounce French words without doing the which is 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.440 I know, like I'm a child of the post. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.120 Nine to eleven era. It's written into my dna. I 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.440 can't help it. I'm sorry you guys were right about 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.440 that war, but I still it's still it's still like 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.000 it seared into me as if with a laser cutter. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:19.640 So I'm not going to try to pronounce it. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:21.960 My my excuse is I'm holding a grudge from that 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.279 time they owned a bunch of Shanghai for like a 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:25.040 bunch of years. 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:29.920 So's there's actually many fine reasons to insult the French, 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.800 and they're just all things you can go after every 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:37.120 other powerful white country that ever exists. Yeah, or other 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.800 country for that matter. I mean, France is pretty classic 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.880 classic colonialism in a lot of ways. 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:43.880 Yeah we are, Oh boy, are we gonna be getting 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.200 into that? Actually that that's that's a good you know, 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:47.760 a good jumping off by for who these people are. 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:51.000 So the bun you So then I might just say 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.200 suburb because I I can't do this. 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.400 Yeah, look, it's it's the French word for suburbs. Suburbs 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.640 in France are different like in the United States, the 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.599 sub suburbs have been up until at least pretty recently, 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.640 fairly reactionary, like. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.600 What you might call it, uh white light. 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.040 Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of white conservatives lived in 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:13.800 the burbs. It was kind of like one of the 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.800 reliable areas for Republican votes and stuff. In France, Like 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.760 upper income people people with more money are a lot 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.240 more frequently living near the center of town and the 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:26.880 suburbs a lot of which were like built specifically for 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.480 like communities of people from from French overseas population who 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.000 were moving to the country. Like they set up like 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.280 public housing and stuff for them. I think the under 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.040 the idea was that if you like moved people over 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.360 in communities into these neighborhoods, it might make integration and 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.920 stuff easier. There's a lot of reasons why this this 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.440 didn't work that I'm I'm, you know, not an expert on, 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:54.120 but like, there were a lot of problematic aspects of 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.200 the execution, including the attitude among the attitude that goes 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.240 back pretty far among a lot of French folks that like, well, 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.480 you know, a positive thing is if they just kind 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:06.480 of become French and uh, drop any other aspects of 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.880 their of their heritage and anyway whatever. It's a whole thing. 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:10.800 But yeah, we're gonna work. 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.080 Yeah, when we talk about suburbs in France, we are 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.080 not talking about like areas where upper middle class people 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.440 bought giant houses, right, Like, that's not what they are. 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.720 These are These are very like they're not they're not 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:24.920 exactly the same as like American housing projects, but they're 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.280 much closer to that than they are like the you know, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.800 the sort of American white flight stuff. Yes, and the 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.160 people who live there. There are some white people, like 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.240 white French people who live there, but there's also a 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.720 lot of French people who are like either like pretty 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.199 some of them are pretty recent immigrants. Uh, there's a 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.400 lot of people from Algeria, like specifically. And the way 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.240 that like the French understand this basically it is like 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.240 all these people are like black and Buslim and like that, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.559 you know, Okay, the French are very racist like and 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:55.400 and and this is the thing that like I was 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.600 in academia for a little bit, right, Like I I 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.440 like thought I understood the like average level of racism 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:07.480 of an academic. Holy fucking shit, Oh my god, I'm 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.199 gonna I'm gonna quote for something about the suburbs like that. 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.000 That's from a piece. I'm gonna talk about pieces a 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.480 little bit because I think it's a really interesting way 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:19.480 of thinking about like what the attitude in front in front, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.200 like France is. So this is about the bondlier. The 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.920 French word for suburb is bondlie, a word derived from 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:30.599 bonnier mite a bond that is to exclude or banish. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.120 And this is the thing. This is from a a 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.480 an article called the French Autumn Riots twosand and five 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.640 and the Crisis of Republican Integration. And this is a 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.120 really interesting piece because like half of it is like 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.240 pretty reasonable sort of like analysis of how the left 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.280 sort of just like failed and portrayed these people. And 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.320 then the other half of it is them talking about 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.240 how like like Muslim people and like people from like 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.800 North Africa have like inherently patriarchal, like reactionary family structures 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.440 and that because of this they can't be like integrated 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:00.560 to French society. And I'm like, what the f luck Like, 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.200 this is just a random academic and he just like 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:06.880 sounds like a stormfront guy. It's it's it's fucking wild. 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.240 So I want to talk a bit about how how 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.920 these things came to be because I think it gets 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.240 to sort of like you know, what what what what 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.640 what these places actually are and why these people are 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.559 writing and to do this for you to go back 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:28.240 to the French conquest of Algeria. So all right, so 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.160 so the French government. 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:35.480 Yeah, it's like yeah, it's it's second maybe to the 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.720 Germans in terms of like the brutality of the conquest. 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.480 And honestly, like that's it's kind of a they're both 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.520 so horrific. It's kind of pointless to be like which 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.000 of these is words. These are both like genocides that 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.680 large chunks of the world just decided to pretend it 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:50.319 didn't happen. 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.040 Yeah. Also, the thing with the French version of it 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:58.480 is because it's the French, it's like like the actual end, 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.840 the French political end of it is basically like a 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.720 tragic comedy. So I'm gonna tell the story. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.640 It's the result of incompetence, and I mean we talk 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.360 about this in our Napoleon the third episodes behind yeahs. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.920 But yeah, yeah. So, like like the official causes ballet 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:14.680 for the French of this war is that the French 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.640 took out all these grain loans under like the Directory, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.160 and then like under Napoleon from the Algerian government. The 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:23.440 government was like, hey, are you ever paying this back? 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.640 And the French were just like no. So this ended 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.280 in like a tiff where the governor of Algeria hit 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:34.280 the French ambassador with the flyswater and this this led 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:38.079 to the French monarchy at this point is led by 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.839 his guy named Charles the Tenth, who's Mike Duncan calls him, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.280 one quote, one of the great idiots of history, and 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.280 he's like about to get overthrown. So he's like, oh, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.400 I'm gonna I'm gonna invade Algeria and this is going 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.720 to like distract everyone from the fact that everyone hates 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:53.680 me and they're gonna overthrow me. And this doesn't work, right, Like, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.079 so the French like conquer Algeria, but Charles Otant is 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.160 overthrown literally three weeks after this finishes. But the sort 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.560 of crucial thing here is that like the successive French 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:09.080 governments keep control of Algeria and they you know this 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.000 this is like one of the places where there's sort 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:15.640 of like modern French racism emerges from is there there's 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:17.839 this you know, the whole invasion is wrapped up in. 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.839 This like. 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.520 Monumental layer of racism that's about like, you know, we're 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.160 gonna go we're gonna free Algeria from quote like oriental despotism. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.040 This is like a civilizing mission and we're gonna let 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.160 you know, and this is like this is this is 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.040 the stuff that you know, if you've been if you've 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.080 seen any like French social media posts about this like 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.760 now right, like this is the kind of racism they 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.080 still do, which is they like they consider Islam like 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.199 a backwards culture. It easy to be like integrated into 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:49.240 French republicanism, and you know, this is yeah, this specific 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.920 kind of French racism is very very old. You also 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.440 briefly mentioned we're gonna mostly talk about Ageria here because 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.080 like a lot of the people who end up living 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.920 in the suburbs are Algerian. But like the French had 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:06.320 a whole empire, they conquered a bunch of parts of 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.400 like a bunch of Western Africa they you know. 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.600 Yeah, and this was also it's worth noting a lot 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:16.200 of it was conquered very frequently, very recently, Like it 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.840 was only in the late eighteen hundreds, I think that 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.720 they solidified their control over Algeria. It was kind of 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.000 right in the same period, all just kind of directly 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.960 ahead of the Franco Prussian War that they took a 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.160 lot of Indo China, Like this was they were kind 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:37.440 of later to having huge overseas possessions, but unlike the Germans, 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.880 they made up for it in terms of the breadth 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.920 of their acquisitions. If you can't call it. 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.199 That, it gets it gets yeah freaking well. Although the 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.520 one thing I think it's interesting about this is like Algeria, 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.760 the Fresh conquer Algeria after they've lost Haiti, which is 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:53.719 like a very interesting sort of like thing here, but like, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:55.240 you know, but one of the things that this gets 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.920 to is that like the French state, you know, like 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.200 literally did doesn't like it doesn't matter like who like 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.720 in what period of time in French clobal history. You 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.880 get to the straight is just the the French state 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:11.360 is just structurally anti black, like it is so unfathomably racist. 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.280 And you know, the way this sort of plays out 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.160 in Algeria, right is like they hold on to Algeria 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.560 for one hundred and thirty years. But one of the 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.360 sort of products of this, right is that, okay, so, 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.320 like Algeria is now part of just like the French 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.400 Empire effectively, right, and this means that over the over 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.320 the sort of decades, the French government starts like importing 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:36.480 Algerian like workers into France because okay, so one of 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.720 the the French carry out basically like a series of 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.600 genocidal campaigns where they just like like progressive different French 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.120 regimes like steal more and more of the land that 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.080 anyone ever in Algeria had until you get to a 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.720 point where Algeria is just effectively a French settler colony, 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.640 and so Okay, so they they've displaced all these people 0:14:57.680 --> 0:14:59.320 and they start, you know, recruiting them to go work 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.840 in France. But this this becomes a huge problem for 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.480 the French state because you know, now they have a 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.840 bunch of colonized people in France who they need to 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.920 like keep colonized. And in order to do this, you 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:12.960 get like, you know, you get Fucoast boomerang, right where 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.120 you have these French police that are trained in Algeria 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.440 who are used like against Algerians in France. And you know, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.000 I've said that was like it's not just that it's 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.560 used against Algerians, right, It's used against like people from 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.160 all over the sort of French empire, from like northwest Africa, 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.680 even people who were from Haiti who like wound up 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.320 in France. But this comes to a head in nineteen 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:39.440 sixty one when there's just one of the weirder parts 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.400 of French history is there's like a second coup attempt 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.920 where all of these officers, these like these French officers 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.960 in Algeria are like terrified the French people had voted 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.120 to like that could have led to Algerians getting the 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.760 ability to like vote over like self rule. Right, and 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.920 the French like colonial officers in Algeria go nuts over 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.080 this and they try to overthrow the government and it fails. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.320 But the result of this is that Degaul gets like 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.560 dictatorial powers in France for like five months, and in 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.480 October of that year, the Algerian National Liberation Front, which 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.400 is like the you know, this is like the giant 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.920 sort of movements of the like franchise of the Augeri 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.920 anticlonial move But like they have this giant protest in 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.400 Paris and the police just start shooting them. I mean, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.040 this is this is this is this is you know, 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:25.680 like this is not a riot, right, like this is 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.400 this is just like they have a giant piece of march, 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.320 the police start just killing them. They kill several hundred 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.360 Augurian protesters. Uh, they throw their corpses into the Seine. 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.440 I'm going to read this quote from the BBC. One 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.560 photo captured the chilling sentiment of the time, showing graffiti 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.640 scrawled along a section of the Sin's embarkment saying, here 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:51.160 we drown Algerians. And they kill like at least two 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.560 hundred people, probably more than that. They are like they're 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.760 throwing like children into the river. To try to drown them. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:03.920 It is fucking awful. And the French government, like they 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:08.679 deny that this happened for decades. The first this massacre 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.800 is in nineteen sixty one, right, the first the first 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.200 like French prime minister to are French president to admit 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:20.320 that this happened. Did it in like it was I 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:21.639 think it was. I think it was twenty eleven. It 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.119 was fifty years later that the first French politician like 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.200 admitted they did it, And the government has still never 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:31.199 apologized for this. So these are this is what the 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:35.000 French police are, right, Like they are These people they 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.320 are you know, they're the people who like a bunch 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.480 of Algerians did a protest for independence and they killed 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.240 they like theyre they threw their children's corpses into a river. 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.480 And this is the sort of long rage backdrop of 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.080 like everything that's happening in modern France like today, right 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.480 is the fact that like France was an empire still 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.720 like is in a lot of ways an empire, and 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:02.240 their police are just like unfathomably violent and racist. 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.760 I mean, yeah, I think I might say, like if 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.320 you're American, pretty fath mobly violent race. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.240 Yeah, but but yeah. 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.240 Like it is, it is. Yeah, I think that's a 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.119 fair Yeah. 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.600 If there was ever a reasonable society on earth that 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.440 people could live in, it would be very easy to 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.240 go this is the most racist thing you've ever seen. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.119 But unfortunately we all live in hell world, and you know, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.960 so our metrics are like is like have the Brazilian 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.879 police killed more people per capitive in the American police? 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.119 Again, it's one of these like we don't need to 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.080 litigate this, Like, I think the point is that when 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.520 when people kind of like flip out over these images 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.440 of buildings being lit on fire and shit getting broken 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.439 and you know, people shooting out cameras or even like 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:50.879 beating folks you know in the street as part of 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.280 a riot and freak out about you know, how the 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.880 place has gone to hell. Like violence that exceeds that 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:02.040 by by many factors, has been like the norm for 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.600 segments of French society going back as long as the 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:10.840 United States has existed. So you know, like the the 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.359 the ugliness that you see in the moment of the 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:20.359 riot is not like it like focusing on that and 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.120 ignoring what what's caused it, Like why people have been 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.040 like reached a pitch where they're doing stuff like that 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.800 is kind of an error, an error at least in 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:37.000 like historical analysis, and I think also an error in 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.560 terms of like the severity of what we're looking at, 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.680 Like none of like all of the ugly shit that's happened, 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.800 because at least one person was killed by rioters and 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.280 all this, but like all of the ugliness of this 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.240 current set of riots doesn't compare to one boat sinking 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:56.239 in the Mediterranean. Yeah, like, and that those things are 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.280 very much tied together. You know, France has had a 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.840 significant role in why northern Africa is the way it 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:07.920 is right now, and why large chunks of like the 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:16.320 that continent have endured waves of successive starvation, famine, death war. Like, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:17.880 Like I want to I want to, like I want 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.440 to just briefly talk about Vietnam for a little bit, 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.919 because sure, I think something that like people don't really 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:25.120 understand is. 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:30.000 That, like okay, so right, like both in the thirties 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.439 in Vietnam and sort of through World War two, like 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.240 huge portions of the country were starving, and they were 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:37.480 starving because the French had completely fucked their economy and 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:39.040 was like was taking all of the food and was 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.280 taking all of the resources and like you know, like 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.000 like that's you know, that's a big part of the 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:47.920 reason why the original sort of like war in Vietnam 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.720 that the French fight happens, right, So it's like it's 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.480 why people like drive them out, is that there are 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.320 like just innumerable people who just fucking starve and die 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.400 because the French colis which just like fuck you, and 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.000 you know, like they the French Empire. It doesn't get 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.840 as much attention as like the British or the Spanish 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:13.040 or like the Americans, but it was like incomprehensibly inhuman 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.680 in terms of just like the shit that they did 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:20.080 and fuck them. They lost yen been food, they'll lose again. 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.800 Well, yeah, I think we should note when it comes 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.280 to like the violence of the French police, when we're 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.480 talking about how they are very American and the way 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.199 they do violence that is reflected in the statistics the 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.280 French police or the deadliest police force in continental Europe. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:37.720 Yeah. 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.000 Part of why is that recent law that was passed 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:44.600 in twenty seventeen which made it a lot easier for 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.159 French police to be able to fire their weapons specifically 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.400 at people they think might be about to commit a 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.320 serious crime. Part of the reason for the change in 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.720 the law was the oh God, what the charlie hebdo 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:02.199 shoot mash. Yeah, there was just this like belief that 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.520 because two police officers were killed in that and there 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.359 was this kind of belief among segments of the population 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.280 that maybe if the police had been able to be 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:13.320 more aggressive, they would have responded more successfully to the shooting. 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:18.080 I think the existence of the American police and the 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:21.440 number of mass shootings we have might argue against that. 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:23.840 But that's one of the things people will say, is 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.199 why this shooting happened? 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.479 And yeah, kind and I think I think it's worth 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:32.119 owing the effect of that law. That law, like it 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:38.240 more than doubled the average number of like very very specifically, 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:40.720 like the number of like North and West African people 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:43.480 who like French people who get shopping the police doubled. 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.879 And yes, depending on the year, right, it either doubled 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:48.360 or in some cases almost tripled. 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:55.160 Yeah, it's been extremely stark the change. It's also worth 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.399 noting that, you know, in two thousand and five, we 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:03.280 had a huge set of riots in the suburbs of Paris. 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.199 I think it killed one person, and the riots were 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:12.200 sparked as the result of police were chasing two kids. 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:16.480 I believe they were Algerian French kids, and they wound 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.679 up like hiding from the police inside of a building 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.159 that was part of like one of the trains and 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:23.280 got electrocuted. 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:24.919 Yeah, they were I think, I think what it was 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:26.399 that they were they were they were like trying to 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:28.240 they were trying to like go home, and they started 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:29.960 they like cut they decided to cut through like a 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:33.159 construction site, and someone called the police on them, so 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:35.040 they were away from the police, and I okay, So 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:36.520 I've heard different versions of this. 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:40.160 And I don't think we're ever gonna know precise Yeah. 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.480 Like there there was a version that was circulating at 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:44.560 the time, and now that might be true, but I 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:46.199 don't know about But there's a version of it that 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:48.919 says that, like the police stood there and watched these 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:52.719 kids get electrocuted, and yeah, that's possible. I don't know 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:54.680 if that happened, but like a lot. 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:58.160 Of people certainly believed that that had happened. And so yeah, 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:00.920 and it was not obviously the death of these kids, 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:02.879 as is always the case when you have riots. This 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:07.760 bit was sort of helped to catalyze existing feelings. One 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:12.240 of the things that was sort of one of the 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.320 reasons why people were angry was that Muslims in France 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.679 at this point in time had essentially zero representation. In 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:23.400 two thousand and five, Islam was France's second most popular 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:27.159 religion after Catholicism. There were seven million French citizens of 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:31.200 Arab or African origin. They had no representation in the 0:24:31.280 --> 0:24:34.600 National Assembly. Not a single member of the National Assembly 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.760 was a Muslim or even Arab or African in their descent, 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:41.720 so there was literally no representation. They were targeted by 0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:45.000 the police. These kids die a suspicious death and people 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:49.240 people riot like like like motherfuckers, you know. And I 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:52.040 was a pretty good set of riots. Yeah, it was 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.760 that one the five ones. I can pull some of 0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:57.960 the stats on it before I want to go back. 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.719 I think I've got some right here. Actually, yeah, at 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:01.480 least I. 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:05.120 Think they burned. They earned ten thousand cars, yeah, toultiple 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:08.560 police stations, government ministries like city halls. 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:13.240 Yeah, two hundred and thirty public buildings damaged. So it 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:14.960 was they went pretty hard. 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:16.879 Yeah, I mean it was it was like, you know, 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:19.160 this is only at the time, this was the biggest 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.560 like unrest in France since nineteen sixty eight, and it. 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:27.040 Is worth noting some of the differences between the government's 0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:30.159 reaction to the riots we just had and to the 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:32.840 two thousand and five riots. In two thousand and five, 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:35.800 the Interior Minister of France and Nicholas Sarkozzi called the 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:39.000 people involved in the riots scum who needed to be 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:43.639 got rid of. It was yeah, yeah, it was. 0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:44.359 It was. 0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:47.360 It was pretty ugly, and there was sort of immediate 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:50.600 like defense of the police force for their actions. It's 0:25:50.640 --> 0:25:53.879 been a bit different in this most recent case. For 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.840 one thing, Emmanuel mccron immediately like said that the shooting 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.960 was horrible, like the actions of the police were bad, 0:26:01.200 --> 0:26:04.480 which got the police very angry at him. 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:03.880 Yeah. 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:07.320 The camera footage of the shooting then came out and 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:09.680 made it very clear that this was an execution as 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:14.160 opposed to a complicated situation, which isn't to like overly 0:26:14.200 --> 0:26:16.920 defend Macron in the administration. You can see just some 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:19.120 how things have changed in France politically. 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:19.399 Well. 0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:22.080 I thing the other thing that's going on there is 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:24.840 that Macron is just a way weaker government than the 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:28.120 French government wasn't in like just five, right, like one 0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:29.960 of the things, you know, So one thing I was 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:31.600 looking at was so in just Justson five, the French 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.159 deployed eleven thousand police to try to contain it, and 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:38.199 they kind of didn't. But like the stuff that happened 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:41.600 like two weeks ago, they there were forty five thousand 0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:45.560 police deployed. So this is I think, like it gets 0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:49.959 to like the severity of what's happening and how scared 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:52.679 the French state is of it, because you know, like 0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:55.080 as the current French government is not very stable, they've 0:26:55.080 --> 0:27:00.320 been trying to like they're on you're like, this is 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:04.520 like the fifth round of like riots that they've seen 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:10.840 in the last like seven years. Yeah, yeah, which. 0:27:10.640 --> 0:27:13.440 Is also evidence that like the police, who have largely 0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:17.359 gotten what they wanted from the government in over the 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:21.760 last seventeen years or so, have not succeeded in at 0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:24.679 all reducing the severity and in fact have continued to 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:28.160 spark this kind of like these kind of riots. 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:30.520 The other thing is going on here, right, So partially 0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:34.800 it's because the French police are like unbelievably racist. The 0:27:34.920 --> 0:27:39.159 other thing that's going on here is this sort of 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:41.480 I mean, I guess you could call it like the 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:44.800 the long rage crisis of capitalism. Right, Like, youth unemployment 0:27:44.840 --> 0:27:48.119 in the suburbs is forty five percent, and this is 0:27:48.119 --> 0:27:49.639 the kind of thing that caused the air of spring, 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:51.920 right was like, you know, you have all of these 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:54.879 populations which are structurally unemployed, right, there are no jobs 0:27:54.920 --> 0:27:58.760 for them. What they you know, like they what jobs 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:03.200 they can get are like the just awful, Like you know, 0:28:03.840 --> 0:28:07.760 like Americans are familiar with dogshit service sector jobs, right, 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:11.280 Like it's like it's that kind of stuff. And you know, 0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:13.560 and this is a product of a lot of sort 0:28:13.600 --> 0:28:17.919 of long range like political trends, right. It's it's you know, 0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:21.159 like capitalism is and spitting people out of the social system. 0:28:21.600 --> 0:28:23.320 The other thing that I think is I think is 0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:28.399 really important about these protests is that like the kids 0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:31.720 in the suburbs are like not really connected to the 0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:35.600 French left. And there's a reason for that. And the 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:39.240 reason for that is this movement that happened in nineteen 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:43.160 eighty one. So in nine eighty one we got really 0:28:43.200 --> 0:28:46.640 the first of this kind of riots. So you know, 0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:51.240 these these suburbs were like mostly these like housing developments. 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:54.280 I guess we're mostly built like in the seventies to 0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:57.240 accommodate like a new flow of migrant workers from mostly 0:28:57.280 --> 0:29:00.000 from Algeria, from other places too, And in nineen eighty 0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:01.840 one you get the first of these riots, and French 0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:05.800 society is like, holy shit because there's a bunch of 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:09.320 non white people rioting and they lose their minds. And 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:11.720 after the first set of riots, which the first, and 0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:13.720 the thing, the thing that's I think interesting about this 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.080 too is the initial riots aren't that big, like they're 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:19.560 they're like pretty small compared to like what has come 0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:20.560 after happen. 0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:24.720 Riot technology was in its infancy at that we were still. 0:29:26.480 --> 0:29:29.840 Okay, that's slightly unfair like people people in France in 0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:32.400 that period were pretty good at rioting. It's just that 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:35.160 like these ones, it wasn't as bad as it was 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:39.160 gonna get. And part of the reason it gets that 0:29:39.160 --> 0:29:44.640 bad ist So okay. So the first the after the 0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:47.400 first of these riots, there's this giant there's you know, 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:49.880 there's an attempt by the French left to like organize 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:52.640 these people, and they have this they have this thing 0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:55.600 called the weear movement. Here I don't know it's French, 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:56.640 it's b you are. 0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:00.360 I think we've we've all established that we're not going 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:04.080 to be impressing anyone with the level of our understanding 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:05.080 of the French language. 0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:09.640 Yeah look, but you so that they have they have 0:30:09.720 --> 0:30:11.880 this sort of anti racism movement, and you know, they 0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:15.200 carry out in one hundred thousand person march from Marseille 0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:18.840 to Paris. But the problem is this movement starts to 0:30:19.440 --> 0:30:22.440 like fail almost immediately, it starts to fall apart because 0:30:23.440 --> 0:30:26.880 you know, at this point Midrand, who is he's like 0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:28.720 on and off again as the French Frime minister for 0:30:28.760 --> 0:30:31.680 a lot of the eighties, and Midrand is from the 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:35.840 Socialist Party and his his plan for this is to 0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:37.680 basically to attempt to co opt this movement and to 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:40.200 turn all of these people who live in the suburbs 0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:41.880 into like a new into a new voter base for 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:46.840 the French Socialist Party. But the problem with this is 0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:51.880 that instead of you know, okay, so the Midran does 0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:57.720 some reforms kind of to like put money into these communities, 0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:01.680 but like again, these people are being structurally disenfranchised by 0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:05.640 a combination of sort of French racism, like the physical 0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:10.920 urban geography of these of these suburbs, like capitalism in general, 0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:12.840 and you know, these are these are sort of like 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:17.880 macro forces, and I Mida RAN's plan to stop the 0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:21.000 riots is he has he has these summer music festivals 0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:24.400 that like higher unemployed youth that are that are that 0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:26.400 go by the name and I'm not making this up, 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:33.160 so os receives me. So they're just like, this is 0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:34.680 this is our plan to saw the riots. We're just 0:31:34.680 --> 0:31:37.560 gonna have like these like good work guys music concerts. 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:39.560 Now, I think I think you got it. I think 0:31:39.560 --> 0:31:40.680 you got it. 0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:43.600 This weirdly, this kind of works for a little bit. 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:47.160 There is there was a there was apparently a fun 0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:51.160 version like a better version of that that occurred in 0:31:51.160 --> 0:31:53.680 in Oregon. Uh and like I think it was the 0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:56.280 nineteen eighties when they were uh they were going to 0:31:56.400 --> 0:31:59.320 have like a Republican convention in town. And so the 0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:06.240 state governor, I think McCall was his last name, was like, Okay, 0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:10.800 I'm gonna throw a big like music festival like two 0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:13.920 hours south of Portland, and I'm gonna tell the cops 0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:21.080 not to bust people for drugs. But yeah, yeah, but 0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:22.040 different thing. 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:23.320 Yeah, yeah, this thing. 0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:23.640 You know. 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:25.840 The problem with this thing is is again like the 0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:28.840 point of this is not actually to sort of solve 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:31.120 the sort of structural racism of French society or do 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.000 anything about capitalism. It's it's to build a voter voter 0:32:34.080 --> 0:32:36.280 base for the Socialist Party. And you know, after a 0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:38.280 couple of years of this, the people in this movement, 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:40.680 like the actual kids in the suburbs are like, what 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:42.720 the fuck, Like our lives still sucks shit, Like you 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:45.400 guys haven't changed anything. And and you know, there's and 0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:47.200 there's there's a lot of promises that the French Sovices 0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:49.200 Party breaks. One of the important ones is that they 0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:51.880 the French Loss Party had been promising to let immigrants 0:32:51.960 --> 0:32:55.000 vote in local elections and that's just fucking vanished, right, 0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:56.880 This has never happened. This is part of why there was, like, no, 0:32:57.000 --> 0:33:01.360 there's so little representation in the French governments. And you know, 0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:03.960 the actual the actual sort of broader goals of this 0:33:04.000 --> 0:33:06.680 anti Rais movement it fails. And there's a there's an 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:09.640 undocumented workers movement that sort of comes that like splinters 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:13.520 off from it, but it's completely destroyed by the French 0:33:13.560 --> 0:33:16.240 business class. And you know, France in this point period 0:33:16.280 --> 0:33:18.640 still has some very strong unions, and the unions just 0:33:18.680 --> 0:33:20.880 like we're like, now, fuck you, like die and just 0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:23.200 hold them to fuck off. And from there and from 0:33:23.240 --> 0:33:26.560 from the betrayal of the Socialist Party, and also simultaneously, 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:27.880 the other thing that's happening in the eighties is the 0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:29.600 rise of sort of like these French new Like the 0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:32.640 French New Right is like resurgence. These guys. When I 0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:34.040 say the French New Right, these people are like fucking 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:36.560 neo Nazis, right, like very very very very A bunch 0:33:36.600 --> 0:33:39.960 of very famous French neo Nazis who modern neo Nazis read, 0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:43.440 appear in this period and they start doing there's a 0:33:43.440 --> 0:33:46.800 bunch of anti immigrant murders that are just horrible, and 0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:49.680 but you know, the state is just kind of gone 0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:52.080 like eh, whatever, like fuck it, you guys can die. 0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:56.120 And so and this has a massive impact on the 0:33:56.160 --> 0:33:58.720 culture of these suburbs, and you know what what the 0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:01.840 what kind of political possibility these they have because these 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:04.680 people like like to this day you will get people 0:34:04.720 --> 0:34:06.680 talking about like the Great talked about the Great betrayal 0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:08.640 and how they got fucked by the Socialist Party and 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:11.560 so like these people don't like they have very little 0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:15.359 contact mostly with the mainstream French left the mainstream French 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:19.160 left is, especially the central left is really fucking racist, 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:21.759 like even like the communist parties really fucking And part 0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:23.239 of what was happening here too is the eighties the 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:26.480 perid where the Communist party collapses and you know, and 0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:29.040 so like all of the sort of like the organized 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:32.799 left factions like don't like them. The unions are like 0:34:32.840 --> 0:34:35.280 what the fuck are these Algerians? Like fuck them, they're Muslim, 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:39.120 we hate them, uh, and you know, and so so 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:41.759 the legacy of this is that the government does some 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:43.960 welfare policies and they like try to do some job 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.560 creation a little bit, but this was always just doomed 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:50.160 to fail because these are you know, like what like 0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:53.560 France in this period is de industrializing. And so the 0:34:53.600 --> 0:34:55.480 product of this is like you have all of these 0:34:55.520 --> 0:34:59.399 people who are now just unemployed, who were attempted, like 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:00.920 you know, there's a a temp to integrate them into 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:02.960 the left and the left just fuck them. But you know, 0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:04.600 obviously they can't. They're not going to go to the 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:06.920 right because the right hates them like even more than 0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:09.680 the French left does. And you get these you know, 0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:12.279 and what happens is like these people, these like these 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:16.480 masses of like precariously employed like unemployed immigrants become this 0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:19.600 like massive focus of the French state. And when Conservatives 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:21.440 take over in the nineties, like they use them as 0:35:21.480 --> 0:35:24.279 this like raci escape guilt for like every problem. They 0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:27.800 begin this like massive authoritarian like campaign against black and 0:35:27.880 --> 0:35:29.360 Muslim people and like you know, like we're we're in 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:31.160 the US, right, like we know what that looks like. 0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:34.560 And you know, and one of the other things that 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:37.720 that starts to happen is like like the French state 0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:40.719 and the French right like portray all these peoples are 0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:43.279 like like the eighties is also the period like you 0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:46.000 know this this is this is right after the uh 0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:50.480 the Iranian Revolution. There's this like rising fear of like Islamism, 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:53.319 and you know, and and and the way that like 0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:56.879 the state responds to this is basically by just by 0:35:56.920 --> 0:35:59.600 going with all these people are like like Islamist terrorists, 0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:03.360 we hate them. All of all of the jobs programs 0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:04.640 that have been set up, and all of the wolf 0:36:04.760 --> 0:36:08.440 programs disappear, like there's the funding for the music concerts 0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:11.320 even just vanishes, and all of this stuff is happening. 0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:15.080 Particularly it is like particularly intensely in the early two thousands, 0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:16.800 and that's that's the other contacts that leads up to 0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:20.040 two thousand and five riots, is that like by by 0:36:20.120 --> 0:36:22.520 two thousand and five, people who are living in these 0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:25.960 places have seen like like really serious deteriorations in their 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:28.880 standards living in like the last like four years because 0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:33.600 these programs are just being destroyed, and you know, and 0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:35.200 then you know, when you get these these protests thatts 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:39.080 are in two thousand and five. And there's another very 0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:42.560 similar thing that happens in two thousand and seven when 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:45.120 the police like crash into two kids on a motor 0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:46.759 like a police car crash into two kids on a 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:49.120 motorcycle and kill them. And there's like there's like a 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:55.560 smaller but like very very intense like series of riots. 0:36:55.600 --> 0:36:59.839 And then it's kind of weirdly quiet for a bit, 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:02.839 you know, I mean, I might I say quiet. Okay, 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:06.520 it's been quiet from the rioting and the French police 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:09.160 keep killing people. One of the things that everyone that 0:37:09.160 --> 0:37:12.880 people are talking about in this one is in twenty seventeen, 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:16.200 it came out that the French police just like fucking 0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:22.279 raped a teenager and it's fucking horrible. Yeah, And then 0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:25.880 I think leads us kind of into like into the 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:28.040 sort of modern like the thing that's happening right now, 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:35.400 which is that you know, like the kids who are 0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:36.880 rioting in the street, And I think I think this 0:37:36.920 --> 0:37:38.520 is a big part of the reason why it's this 0:37:38.640 --> 0:37:41.239 intense is that you know, these are these are like 0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:44.239 seventeen and eighteen year olds, right, They're old, and they're 0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:46.399 you know, they're too old to believe in the sort 0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:49.239 of like fairy tales of French liberty inequality. Right, they 0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:52.520 know what that looks like. They know that it's like, friend, 0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:56.800 like French liberty inequality means a police baton fucking breaking 0:37:56.840 --> 0:37:59.000 your skull because you were walking down the street. 0:37:59.160 --> 0:37:59.399 Right. 0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:03.080 But they're also you know, they're seventeen or eighteen, they're 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:05.680 too young to know that they're supposed to be afraid, 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:09.400 and because of that they have, you know, like they 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:14.319 burned down multiple police stations. Like it's the rioting has 0:38:14.360 --> 0:38:16.240 been just incredibly intense. 0:38:17.480 --> 0:38:20.880 One of the things that has probably been the major 0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:24.760 touchstone people have heard about these riots on social media 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:27.200 and stuff is or at least the thing that I 0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:29.799 saw being spread the most was like the fact that 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:34.839 rioters were using firearms. There's a couple of things that, 0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:38.319 like I noticed, one was people flipping out over like 0:38:38.560 --> 0:38:43.279 the presence of guns in France. And interestingly, folks on 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:45.760 both sides of this I think got stuff wrong because 0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:48.000 people on one hand, you had people being like, where 0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:50.680 the fuck did they get guns? Something suspicious must have happened. 0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.120 They must have come in from Ukraine. France is a 0:38:53.120 --> 0:38:56.480 European country, and European countries don't have guns in the 0:38:56.520 --> 0:39:01.080 civilian population, like, yes, yes they do France. Actually, interestingly enough, 0:39:01.480 --> 0:39:04.640 France is one of those countries that primarily regulates who 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:08.120 is allowed to own what kinds of guns, as opposed 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:11.560 to what kinds of guns can be owned. So in France, 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:15.480 with the right licensing, you can own most of the 0:39:15.600 --> 0:39:18.320 kinds of firearms that you can own in the United States. 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:21.440 In fact, in France, if you have the proper kinds 0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:24.360 of permits, you can own something like an AR fifteen 0:39:24.440 --> 0:39:27.040 with a thirty round magazine, which you could not purchase 0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:31.200 in the state of California. Now these are these are 0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:33.919 these are still very stringent gun control if you're going 0:39:33.960 --> 0:39:36.560 to have because again they split the kinds of firearms 0:39:36.560 --> 0:39:39.040 into category and the most restricted kind of firearms are 0:39:39.080 --> 0:39:43.040 semi automatic rifles like ar platform guns. If you're going 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:45.719 to have something like that, you're doing an intense background check, 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.920 You're doing like you're submitting to random searches, you know, 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:53.239 by the police. Like it's not nearly as easy as 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:55.120 it is to acquire firearms in the US. But there 0:39:55.120 --> 0:39:57.960 aren't quite a lot of firearms. I think you're allowed 0:39:58.000 --> 0:40:00.400 to own up to like ten magazines per gun and 0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:03.279 a thousand rounds or something like that. That said, I 0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:05.359 don't believe the majority of the guns that we've seen 0:40:05.400 --> 0:40:09.640 on the streets and the riots are normal, legal, civilian 0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:13.759 owned arms. That said, the existence of guns in these 0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:18.040 protests has also been heavily overstated, largely result of footage 0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:21.719 of shit like people shooting out cameras with what are 0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:26.200 actually air rifles that folks just assume our real firearms. 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:29.560 There's also been shit like there was one video that 0:40:29.600 --> 0:40:33.719 went really viral that was a petrol bomb being set 0:40:33.760 --> 0:40:37.480 off by protesters at a government building and it was 0:40:37.560 --> 0:40:40.600 just blue checks on Twitter. People who pay elon for 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:43.839 it were spreading it saying, look, people are using RPGs 0:40:44.120 --> 0:40:46.960 in the riots. You know, rioters have rocket launchers. These 0:40:46.960 --> 0:40:49.040 are in some there were a number of folks who 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:52.160 got tens of thousands of shares and likes claiming that 0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:54.680 this was These were examples of like heavy weaponry from 0:40:54.760 --> 0:40:58.120 Ukraine getting over to the US. For one thing, if 0:40:58.160 --> 0:41:02.280 guns were if weaponry was getting out of Ukraine, RPGs 0:41:02.600 --> 0:41:04.840 are not like the thing that people would be psyched 0:41:04.840 --> 0:41:07.200 to get. You can get RPGs in Europe, and you're 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:10.839 generally getting them from North Africa, right like, or from 0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:13.920 the Balkans. You know, there's no shortage of com block 0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:16.440 weaponry in that part of the country, but it was 0:41:16.480 --> 0:41:19.239 not an RPG being used. Well. 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:20.960 Also, something I want to talk about a little bit 0:41:21.200 --> 0:41:25.600 is that the actual thing, the actual weapon of the 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:28.279 French writers is fire and this is this is something 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:31.000 they are way better at this than the Americans are, right, Like, 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:33.359 I mean, I saw a video, absolutely I've seen kind 0:41:33.440 --> 0:41:34.960 I saw a couple of videos that were just wild, 0:41:35.080 --> 0:41:37.239 Like there's so I don't even know how they did this. 0:41:37.640 --> 0:41:40.359 Someone had set like one of those like skyscraper tall 0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:43.319 construction cranes on fire and not the bottom of it, right, 0:41:43.320 --> 0:41:45.239 they set the they set the cabin on fire. It's like, 0:41:45.239 --> 0:41:47.080 I don't even know how you do that? Because like, 0:41:47.080 --> 0:41:49.480 like did they did they climb up the thing like 0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:52.400 they got like did they set it on fire and 0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:55.279 then climbed down will was on fire? Like, how do 0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:57.799 you even do that? I saw I saw another video 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:01.560 that was unbelievably funny where a bunch of protesters like 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:04.840 like in front of the mayor of their town, covered 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:07.319 his car and gasoline and lit it on fire, which 0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:09.000 was very funny. But like, but like, you know, this 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:11.560 is this is the thing like fire is. 0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:14.640 There Like fire is area denial, right, like yeah, that 0:42:15.080 --> 0:42:19.280 and and that's key. Yeah, it's areas avenues of advance. 0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:20.680 You're able to protect your flanks. 0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:23.239 And and also also it is it is a very 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:25.759 very good way to like it is very very if 0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:27.000 you if if the thing you want to do is 0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:29.680 destroy a police station, like lighting it on fire is 0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:31.880 a very very good way to do that. And you know, 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:34.319 it's it's very effective. It's like destroying cars too. Is 0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:36.520 the everything I think I think absolutely. 0:42:36.080 --> 0:42:36.560 Enough of it. 0:42:36.640 --> 0:42:39.960 Sure, yeah, and and and like everything that's been happening 0:42:40.000 --> 0:42:41.680 is there's been a lot of looting, but this is 0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:43.759 I actually think the most depressing part about these entire 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:47.560 riots is that most of the looting, you know, like 0:42:48.200 --> 0:42:50.040 I am pro looting. This is this is like one 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:52.960 of my stances, right, but like, like there is a 0:42:52.960 --> 0:42:55.040 lot of looting that is people looting high end goods 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:56.920 that they normally just would never have access to. Right, 0:42:57.440 --> 0:42:59.719 That's not what's happening here. Most of the looting that's 0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:02.840 happened here is food and medicine. Yeah, and that is 0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:04.960 the most depressing thing. But the fact that people are 0:43:05.000 --> 0:43:08.880 doing subsistence looting is like maybe the most depressing thing 0:43:08.920 --> 0:43:11.560 I've ever heard in my entire life. 0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:22.600 Like yeah, right, oh god, yeah, I mean it makes sense, 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:23.120 you know. 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:27.759 Yeah, And like the last like you know, it's the 0:43:27.800 --> 0:43:30.239 cost of living crisis, just like and again the fact 0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:32.160 that like we're talking about places with forty five percent 0:43:32.160 --> 0:43:38.360 youth unemployment, right, Like it's the conditions are so unbelievably 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:41.840 bleak that like, yeah, I mean, like this, this is 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:44.759 what happens when you do this to people, is like 0:43:44.960 --> 0:43:47.640 they fight back. The other thing I want to talk 0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:51.000 about is that a lot of these people are like 0:43:51.120 --> 0:43:52.560 one of the things that people focus on is I 0:43:52.600 --> 0:43:54.120 actually think it's very funny that there was there was 0:43:54.160 --> 0:43:56.799 a guy interviewed in the New York Times, who had 0:43:56.880 --> 0:43:59.480 like the moderate position on the riots, and their moderate 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:01.920 position on the riots was it's okay that they're burning 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:06.160 police stations, but why are they burning schools? And I 0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:08.560 want to talk about the burning schools thing a little 0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:10.800 bit because this is something that gets talked about a lot, 0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:16.000 and you know, okay, like this this is you know, 0:44:16.040 --> 0:44:18.160 this is the sort of sociological question that get because 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:20.440 because this is like, burning schools has been a thing 0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:23.000 that's like this is this happened inwo thousand and five, 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:25.120 happened in two thousand and seven, even going back to 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:26.879 some of the riots in the eighties and nineties, people 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.640 were burning schools. And the reason these kids are burning schools, right, 0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:33.000 is that most of the people, the people who are 0:44:33.000 --> 0:44:35.080 burning these schools are like there are kids who went 0:44:35.120 --> 0:44:37.479 to these schools, right, and you know, they were either 0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:40.120 in these schools or they just got out and they 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:43.279 realized these schools didn't do shit, right, Like, going going 0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:45.240 to one of these schools doesn't lift you out of poverty. 0:44:45.440 --> 0:44:47.600 Studying heart doesn't lift you out of poverty. You're fucked, 0:44:48.520 --> 0:44:51.200 and you know, and so like yeah, of course, like 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:53.200 of course these people are lighting these are lighting their 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:56.279 schools on fire right there there. They're attacking. They're they're 0:44:56.280 --> 0:44:59.920 they're like they're they're attacking like the actual friends like institution, 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.040 they were systematically set up to fuck them and one 0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:04.840 of one of the other, like you know, and like 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:06.680 one of the things that always that people always talk 0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:08.279 about it is like, well why why you you know this? 0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:08.360 This? 0:45:08.400 --> 0:45:10.239 You get this with American riots too, it's people ask 0:45:10.280 --> 0:45:12.360 like why you burning your homes? Like why why are 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:15.799 you burning your own community? And I mean particularly with 0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:19.080 the French suburbs, right, like these suburbs are a cage. 0:45:19.120 --> 0:45:21.600 They were built as a cage. They were built specifically 0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:24.879 as a cage to contain a bunch like as as 0:45:24.920 --> 0:45:28.040 France's way of containing this non white labor force that 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.480 they that they imported into the country. And so you know, 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:34.360 and it's like yeah, and every every single day, the 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:37.040 bars of the cage are just are fucking getting are shrinking, right, 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:39.560 the cage is shrinking, The walls are getting tighter and tighter. 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:44.319 There's less food, there's less money, there's less opportunities, and yeah, 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:46.520 you know, at some white people start burning down the 0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:50.359 cage and and everyone just is like walking around going 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:52.799 why why are you burning your cage down? It's your home, 0:45:52.800 --> 0:45:55.880 but it's still a cage. Like the fact that the 0:45:55.920 --> 0:45:57.640 fact that people are made to live in the cage 0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:00.719 doesn't make it any less a cage. And that's that's 0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:02.799 why these people are That's why, that's why these people 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:07.719 are burning it, because they like they know from you know, 0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:10.319 just the the the experience of their everyday lives of 0:46:10.360 --> 0:46:12.040 what it's like to live here, that this place is 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:16.440 fucking killing them. And so you know, they're they they 0:46:16.280 --> 0:46:19.319 they responded in sort of the classic French fashion, which 0:46:19.320 --> 0:46:20.280 is to light it on fire. 0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:24.479 It is like if the goal was to integrate these 0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:28.040 people into French culture, there's an extent to which. 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:28.480 They did work. 0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:32.480 You know, yeah, absolutely, there you go. You know, you 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:35.520 created like the beauty of globalization. 0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:36.960 Of France. 0:46:37.120 --> 0:46:42.120 Like yeah, I again, like in terms of the people 0:46:42.160 --> 0:46:45.280 flipping out about stuff, like I think it is important 0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:48.200 to think about to keep in mind why people are 0:46:48.239 --> 0:46:50.719 doing this, how bad a situation has to be for 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:54.319 people too, as you said, like burned their houses, their 0:46:54.320 --> 0:46:58.600 homes down around themselves, like the when you think about 0:46:58.640 --> 0:47:02.720 like looting as a function of basic survival, like that's 0:47:02.880 --> 0:47:07.920 the degree to which these people have been like stretched out. Yeah, 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.640 and the fact that people are freaking out over shit 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:15.319 like guns. And it's largely honestly when I talk about that, 0:47:15.800 --> 0:47:19.880 Largely the reason why is because there's a whole ecosystem 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:26.040 of mainly largely right wing people, like media influencers, a 0:47:26.120 --> 0:47:28.360 lot of whom got blue checks as soon as Elon 0:47:28.440 --> 0:47:30.000 offered it because it puts them up higher and the 0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:33.720 search results. Who started making money in twenty twenty posting 0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:36.480 riot born from the United States and who are desperate 0:47:36.480 --> 0:47:39.760 to return to those days. So anytime there's disturbances anywhere, 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:42.000 they're going to try to like what is the most 0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:44.319 you know, Oh, you know, a lot of folks on 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:46.080 the far left and a lot of folks on the 0:47:46.160 --> 0:47:48.560 riot are angry at you know, the US for sending 0:47:48.560 --> 0:47:51.279 weapons to Ukraine. Well let's blame this on that, or 0:47:51.800 --> 0:47:53.680 you know, I want to make some sort of point 0:47:53.680 --> 0:47:57.400 about gun control and pretend that like French gun control laws, 0:47:57.480 --> 0:47:59.759 you know, don't work because some of the Rioters have 0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:03.640 old shotguns or aks that got smuggled in from across 0:48:03.680 --> 0:48:06.080 the Mediterranean. So I'm going to make it about that. 0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:10.880 But all of which is number one, like calculated in 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:15.200 order to increase the profit of a specific a specific 0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:20.000 kind of dishonest media influencer, and all of which ignores 0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:23.480 like the humanity of people who are are in a 0:48:23.520 --> 0:48:26.480 desperate situation and acting desperately as a result. 0:48:27.520 --> 0:48:29.400 Yeah, and I think I think the everything that that 0:48:29.600 --> 0:48:32.440 really pisses me off about this is that it obscures 0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:35.680 the actual parts of this that are interesting and that 0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:37.759 are you know, like that that are genuinely radical in 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:40.040 ways that I don't like. One of the things that 0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:41.560 they that people tried to do in this was like 0:48:41.640 --> 0:48:44.160 people tried to break their like their friends who'd been 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:47.080 like arrested by the French state out of prison, and 0:48:47.120 --> 0:48:49.640 they they didn't, they didn't. They ended up failing. Because 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:51.160 this is one of the other things that's been happening 0:48:51.200 --> 0:48:54.279 is lots of countries have police anti terrorism units, right, 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:57.160 the French have like multiple kinds of them. They also 0:48:57.200 --> 0:49:00.360 have like military police units, but the French were using 0:49:00.480 --> 0:49:03.480 these like anti like like specifically anti terrorism units against 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:05.320 the protesters, and that that's one of the units that 0:49:05.360 --> 0:49:08.120 got deployed. I'm pretty sure if if i'm if I 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:10.600 if I if if the sources have been reading, are correct, 0:49:11.000 --> 0:49:12.360 that was one of the things that happened in this 0:49:12.440 --> 0:49:14.359 was an anti terrorists. They sent an anti terrorism needed 0:49:14.360 --> 0:49:19.160 to stop a prison break, and that's I think, you know, 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:21.319 it's it's a really sort of emblematic thing of of 0:49:21.360 --> 0:49:24.600 what the French state is and like where it's going. Right, 0:49:24.600 --> 0:49:28.080 It's like the the French Republic was born from a 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:30.920 bunch of people trying to storm a prison, and it 0:49:30.960 --> 0:49:32.839 has now gotten back to a bunch of people trying 0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:34.839 to storm a prison, and they send a bunch of 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:39.600 like fucking anti riot like antim Some. 0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:41.360 Of these weird right wingers were like, look, this is 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:43.960 what happens when you when you let all these foreigners 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:46.320 into your country that destroy the culture. I'm like, man, 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:49.319 there's not a goddamn thing more French than tottacking a 0:49:49.400 --> 0:49:54.960 prison then attacking your own prison, like that is the 0:49:55.000 --> 0:50:01.280 most there. Like these people have literally returned to tradition. 0:50:02.160 --> 0:50:06.040 Yeah, they think they've become French royalists together. It's just like, 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:11.879 oh God, like in shalah, they suffer the same fate like. 0:50:12.719 --> 0:50:18.200 I anyway, whatever, It's it's very frustrating the way in 0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:23.000 which like we're seeing kind of I think, I don't know, 0:50:23.360 --> 0:50:25.800 we'll see. I probably shouldn't be such a doomer because 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:28.440 I don't actually know the extent to which all that 0:50:28.600 --> 0:50:30.719 worked for the uh the kind of people who were 0:50:30.719 --> 0:50:34.880 attempting to grapple and wrestle these riots into something that 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:38.000 could make them quick cash. Yeah, but it is kind 0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:40.520 of a reminder that those people are still there, that 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:45.120 like infrastructure of deceit still exists, and every time, you know, 0:50:45.160 --> 0:50:47.279 the next time there's big riots or protests here, every 0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:50.120 time it happens anywhere, that shit is all going to 0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:53.879 spin up. I will say one of the in terms 0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:57.560 of like stuff that worked, the use of pellet guns 0:50:57.560 --> 0:51:01.000 to take out cameras was seemed to have been extremely effective. 0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:02.719 Oh I should Okay, there's another thing I should talk 0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:04.600 about that like didn't doesn't doesn't show up on film 0:51:04.680 --> 0:51:06.759 much for obvious reasons. But like one of the most 0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:09.440 effective things that was happening in these riots was people 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:11.600 using cars to break down the fronts of stores. 0:51:12.400 --> 0:51:12.600 Yeah. 0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:14.440 And and the second, the second one that was very 0:51:14.480 --> 0:51:16.359 effective was people using like there's a lot of use 0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:18.719 of scooters as like a way to get as a 0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:20.880 way to get like move around really quickly as a 0:51:20.880 --> 0:51:25.719 way to redeploy, as a way to like like as 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:28.480 but like like you know, Okay, the thing about these 0:51:28.480 --> 0:51:33.640 protests that is that is really sort of interesting a 0:51:33.640 --> 0:51:36.880 lot of ways is like it's what what what they've 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:41.000 basically done, like not not from a sort of anarchist 0:51:41.040 --> 0:51:44.439 ideological perspective, but from an organizational perspective, is that they've 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:46.840 created like a bunch of networks with affinity groups. And 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:48.400 so though like the way this stuff is happening is 0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:50.359 you get a very small group of people who are 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:53.120 capable of moving very quickly and they just go do 0:51:53.200 --> 0:51:55.440 a thing, right, they don't they don't tell anyone else 0:51:55.480 --> 0:51:57.560 what they're doing. There's no sort of like there's there's 0:51:57.560 --> 0:51:59.120 no sort of like top down central command that you 0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:00.840 can just sort of like stop. 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:01.279 Right. 0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:06.239 It's it's this incredibly sort of decentralized like it's an 0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:08.560 incredibly sort of centralized movement. And the police just like 0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:15.719 it took them like a week like over like about 0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:20.800 to like really like take back control of these places. 0:52:22.040 --> 0:52:24.480 And you know, and like right now with the period 0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:26.359 we're entering is like a period that we saw right 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:28.960 after the George Floyd uprisings, which is like, this is 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:31.480 the period where like the police cracks down or like 0:52:31.640 --> 0:52:35.200 tries to arrest a bunch of people right simultaneously. Like 0:52:35.960 --> 0:52:38.480 I don't see a world where we don't see another 0:52:38.520 --> 0:52:42.880 one of these in the next like five maybe ten years, 0:52:43.400 --> 0:52:45.840 because none of the structural problems are like all the 0:52:45.840 --> 0:52:48.120 structural problems with the French state are just getting worse 0:52:48.120 --> 0:52:51.120 and worse and worse and worse. And ye, you know, 0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:54.000 at some point someone is like, like, I think, I 0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:55.680 think the problem with this and the problem with the 0:52:55.680 --> 0:52:58.920 French movement in general has been for the last about 0:52:58.920 --> 0:53:02.399 twenty years, there have been a lot of very very 0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:04.600 similar sort of riots trying to bring down governments and 0:53:04.640 --> 0:53:08.680 they mostly don't work. But at some point someone is 0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:10.520 going to figure out something and they are going to 0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:13.680 do it, and France like could well be a place 0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:15.920 where that happens, just because the state's capacity to do 0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:20.000 violence is you know, like, well, the state's legitimacy is 0:53:20.040 --> 0:53:22.520 just purely reduced to its capacity for violence. And I 0:53:22.560 --> 0:53:30.280 don't know, that's not great, but I mean it's what's happening. 0:53:30.800 --> 0:53:31.719 And yeah, I don't know. 0:53:31.760 --> 0:53:34.880 I hope, I hope, I hope someone beats them and 0:53:34.880 --> 0:53:36.960 I hope the people that beat them are better than 0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:40.880 the current like a pack of murderers jackals. 0:53:40.920 --> 0:53:42.960 Speaking of other things that are like a long and 0:53:43.040 --> 0:53:44.920 proud tradition in French politics. 0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:51.720 Yeah, Like there's nothing more French than overthrowing the That's. 0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:54.000 Like, yeah, that's like everywhere where. You're like, wow, these 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:56.920 people suck. I hope they get overthrown and also not 0:53:57.000 --> 0:53:57.880 by someone worse. 0:53:58.400 --> 0:54:01.319 Yeah, no more Napoleons. 0:54:01.960 --> 0:54:07.800 Yeah, no more, No more Napoleon's Napoleon's Bonaparte. That's plural. 0:54:08.719 --> 0:54:09.160 All right. 0:54:09.360 --> 0:54:12.920 Uh well, I feel like are we uh is that 0:54:13.040 --> 0:54:13.600 us for today? 0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:13.839 Yeah? 0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:15.719 I think I think I think that's that's that's that's 0:54:15.760 --> 0:54:16.960 been our riots. 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:20.480 All right, That's been our French Riots episode. Everybody, Uh 0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:22.640 until next time, I don't know, maybe a choir and 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:26.840 train with a pellet gun. You know, they're easy to get, uh, 0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:29.960 surprisingly effective legally not firearms. 0:54:30.160 --> 0:54:33.200 You know, you can like look the thing they're very 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.759 useful for if there's like small animals that are like 0:54:35.960 --> 0:54:37.919 trying to eat your fucking garden. 0:54:38.480 --> 0:54:40.600 Yep, you can use them on that as well, small 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:58.719 animals for the government. Hey, everybody, welcome back to it 0:54:58.760 --> 0:55:01.040 could happen here. I'm Robert Evans, and this is a 0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:06.680 podcast about things falling apart and nowhere. I don't know 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:11.400 showcases collapse quite as well as the US Mexico border. 0:55:11.840 --> 0:55:14.680 And that's my little introduction. Now I'm going to pivot 0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:17.640 over to James Stout. James, what are we talking about today? 0:55:17.840 --> 0:55:20.919 Well, today we are talking about the US Mexico boarder 0:55:20.920 --> 0:55:24.239 is specifically in the Great State of Texas, which people 0:55:24.320 --> 0:55:27.240 might remember from its winter power grid failures. It's upcoming 0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:31.440 summer power grid failures. And Greg Abbott's sort of hilarious 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:34.760 and also very cruel and terrible antics on the border. 0:55:35.000 --> 0:55:38.399 And we're joined today by one guest who two guests 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:40.560 we've had before to talk about the border on the podcast. 0:55:41.200 --> 0:55:44.880 We've got Gen Budd, a former senior Border Patrol agent, 0:55:44.920 --> 0:55:49.480 an author, and an activist. And Marianna Travina Wright, who 0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:53.480 people remember as the Butterfly Lady, the previous owner of 0:55:53.719 --> 0:55:55.800 an M four assault rifle, the lady who made the 0:55:55.840 --> 0:56:01.239 cop walk off her butterfly sanctuary once, and hero occasionally 0:56:01.280 --> 0:56:04.239 of Twitter dot com. 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:09.040 How are you, guys, We're good, We're good. 0:56:09.480 --> 0:56:10.839 Good to see you guys. 0:56:11.400 --> 0:56:14.120 It's nice to hear because we are this is normally 0:56:14.160 --> 0:56:18.279 the time of year where Texas is rough climactically, in 0:56:18.320 --> 0:56:21.800 this particular year, it's it's downright apocalyptic down there. 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:27.080 Yeah, we just don't go outside. You're likely to vaporized spontaneously. 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:29.600 Yeah, it looks bad. 0:56:30.040 --> 0:56:34.279 Yeah. And so what I've gathered us here today to 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:42.240 discuss is the upcoming implementation of a a floating border wall, 0:56:43.239 --> 0:56:45.960 a barrier which is going to make children drown. I 0:56:47.880 --> 0:56:49.600 don't really know how to describe it. Press one, if 0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:54.400 you could sort of describe this proposed Greg Abbott's talking 0:56:54.440 --> 0:56:57.880 about it, but but it's it's clearly like a not 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:02.040 just a state thing. So perhaps we could start out 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:04.799 by explaining exactly what he's been talking about, what this 0:57:04.880 --> 0:57:05.680 design looks like. 0:57:06.480 --> 0:57:10.000 So the floating border wall, I confess in the beginning 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:12.000 I was kind of like, I don't get it because 0:57:12.040 --> 0:57:15.240 I'm thinking of a wall, you know, going extending upwards. 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:18.360 But essentially what it is are these giant booyes plastic 0:57:18.400 --> 0:57:23.400 booies that are very tightly woven together so that you 0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:26.320 can't go in between them. And then the booyes also spin, 0:57:26.480 --> 0:57:28.760 so if you grab onto them, you're going to just 0:57:28.880 --> 0:57:33.960 spin down, and then underneath the booys is four feet 0:57:34.000 --> 0:57:36.680 of netting, so if you try and swim underneath it, 0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:39.840 you will be captured in the netting and then you 0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:44.400 will likely drowned. It's originally I think the original design 0:57:45.120 --> 0:57:49.760 for the makers was to prevent groups like Green Peace 0:57:49.880 --> 0:57:54.600 and so forth from getting to oil what do you 0:57:54.600 --> 0:57:56.760 call them, oil stands out in the middle of the 0:57:56.800 --> 0:57:59.840 ocean and keep their boats from getting to them. So 0:58:00.120 --> 0:58:02.720 now they're going to use them and string them because 0:58:02.760 --> 0:58:05.520 the border technically most Americans, I don't think. No, there's 0:58:05.520 --> 0:58:07.800 the border technically along a lot of parts of the 0:58:07.840 --> 0:58:10.240 Rio Grande and Texas is in the middle of the river, 0:58:10.680 --> 0:58:13.440 depending on where the river's flowing that year, and so 0:58:13.600 --> 0:58:17.520 they will have to also be weighted down as well. 0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:23.320 And the hope for the governor is that most of 0:58:23.360 --> 0:58:25.680 the people will drown trying to get over to the 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.280 US side, which means their bodies will remain in Mexico 0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:31.760 and then we won't have to deal with them easypasy. 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:37.080 Yeah, that is a particularly dark consideration. They hadn't thought of. 0:58:37.160 --> 0:58:40.360 Our border is already. If people aren't familiar with di 0:58:40.440 --> 0:58:43.200 colonial atlats, they have some good visualizations, but you can 0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:46.040 see where migrants die, and they have one I think 0:58:46.080 --> 0:58:49.280 it's called where Migrants Die, and there are various sort 0:58:49.320 --> 0:58:54.640 of colors for different people dying from exposure, people die, dehydration, drowning, 0:58:55.160 --> 0:58:58.280 and overwhelmingly people don't die on the way here. They 0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:02.080 die within a few miles of US border, normally on 0:59:02.120 --> 0:59:05.800 the northern side our borders already and Jen has covered 0:59:05.800 --> 0:59:09.800 this extensively how our border is already killing people, But 0:59:10.760 --> 0:59:14.280 this is I think particularly cruel. Is it something that 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:17.120 like Abbott started talking about it maybe a month or 0:59:17.120 --> 0:59:18.600 so ago, maybe two months ago? 0:59:18.640 --> 0:59:18.880 Now? 0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:24.000 Is it something that he's doing sort of of his own, 0:59:24.440 --> 0:59:27.720 like they Arizona sort of contain a wall, or is 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:31.640 it something that he's proposing as a sort of federal operation. 0:59:32.200 --> 0:59:35.160 What's going on with I think he originally probably got 0:59:35.160 --> 0:59:39.200 the idea because in the Trump administration they had promoted this, 0:59:39.480 --> 0:59:43.960 and so I believe that the former chief under Trump, 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:47.800 Rodney Scott, was probably they were probably researching him and 0:59:47.880 --> 0:59:51.520 CBP were researching how to do this, because it would 0:59:51.520 --> 0:59:54.400 take quite a few quite at least quite a few months, 0:59:54.400 --> 0:59:56.960 if not years to research this and make something like 0:59:56.960 --> 1:00:00.600 this happen. Yeah, but I think that they in that 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:03.360 because they knew that that's just not going to fly federally. 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:08.480 But although why wouldn't it. I mean, all deterrence policies 1:00:08.520 --> 1:00:10.880 are based on this kind of cruelty, so I guess 1:00:10.960 --> 1:00:14.560 visually they thought it would be too much. But since 1:00:15.160 --> 1:00:18.240 since Rodney Scott is no longer the chief of the 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:24.200 Border Patrol and he resigned, he's been working with the 1:00:24.240 --> 1:00:27.880 State of Texas and specifically with Governor Greg Abbot to 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:31.200 develop new policies and so forth. And he's been down 1:00:31.240 --> 1:00:35.120 there helping the union and helping other ex Border Patrol 1:00:35.160 --> 1:00:38.480 agents come up with new policies and new cruelties for 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:42.920 Greg Abbott to install. So I think originally the idea 1:00:42.960 --> 1:00:45.720 was a federal idea, and now it's come down to 1:00:46.600 --> 1:00:47.840 the State of Texas. 1:00:48.600 --> 1:00:53.320 Okay, So I guess how far along is the State 1:00:53.360 --> 1:00:55.880 of Texas in Like I know, before Trump built his 1:00:55.920 --> 1:00:59.000 border warr we had these little thirty foot prototypes. 1:00:58.400 --> 1:00:59.320 In San Diego. 1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:02.320 He gave a lot of contracts people who'd given him 1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:06.200 a lot of money in his election campaign. Wheatland Tube, 1:01:06.200 --> 1:01:08.040 I think is a big one, and the mixed deal, 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:11.320 But how far is the State of Texas along in 1:01:11.400 --> 1:01:14.360 its plan to create a floating murder barrier. 1:01:15.360 --> 1:01:22.040 The booy barrier border barrier is already created and it's 1:01:22.080 --> 1:01:24.800 available in various links. 1:01:25.640 --> 1:01:28.200 And I should add in addition to. 1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:33.400 The booys in between the booys are spinning radial blades. 1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:38.920 So you yeah, it just I mean every aspect of 1:01:39.000 --> 1:01:42.600 this I I miss. That is a bloody nightmare. I 1:01:42.680 --> 1:01:47.080 went to the manufacturer site and it addresses this too, 1:01:48.720 --> 1:01:51.120 So you can't even get to like the middle of 1:01:51.160 --> 1:01:57.480 the booy with you know something, and cut the string 1:01:57.520 --> 1:02:02.040 of booys because there are these radial razor blades too. 1:02:03.080 --> 1:02:06.200 So the state will. 1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:11.840 Be deploying it in thousand foot strips. And Jin and 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:16.840 I did a little podcast on this, I don't know 1:02:16.840 --> 1:02:19.400 a couple of months ago when we first saw these 1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:26.000 signs appearing on the river and they were super strange. 1:02:26.000 --> 1:02:29.080 It was Memorial Day weekend, I believe, and they were 1:02:29.160 --> 1:02:32.920 numbered and they said like RGV for Rio Grand Valley 1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:37.680 RGV one ninety one, one ninety three. We thought, are 1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:40.920 these mile markers like we have on the freeway, But 1:02:41.360 --> 1:02:45.840 they weren't at any particular distance and they were put 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:50.800 at various spots that appeared as though they could be 1:02:51.320 --> 1:02:57.160 areas where migrants crossed. They can also be the paths 1:02:57.200 --> 1:02:59.840 where the cows and the horses come down to drink. 1:03:00.280 --> 1:03:02.600 Jenn's been on the river with us. She's observed that 1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:08.600 at various platforms on the river where water pump stations 1:03:08.760 --> 1:03:14.040 are for farmers and irrigation districts and such. So we 1:03:14.080 --> 1:03:19.680 saw these signs. The RGV one ninety one is facing 1:03:19.680 --> 1:03:25.920 the river facing Mexico. The backside of it is a 1:03:26.080 --> 1:03:31.640 caution danger risk of drowning sign in English and in Spanish, 1:03:32.040 --> 1:03:36.400 but it is facing the United States, on the bank 1:03:36.720 --> 1:03:40.200 of the Rio Grande River in the United States, so 1:03:40.240 --> 1:03:43.520 it's in no way a caution to anyone who might 1:03:43.520 --> 1:03:47.040 be approaching the river. And we thought, why are they 1:03:47.080 --> 1:03:51.960 suddenly putting up these signs, because you know, forever people 1:03:52.000 --> 1:03:55.840 have been crossing the river, and Border Patrol is on 1:03:55.920 --> 1:04:00.400 the boats there, Texas DPS, the Coast Guard, the US 1:04:00.480 --> 1:04:05.520 Coast Guard now Game Wardens now Florida Highway Patrol and 1:04:05.600 --> 1:04:08.640 Florida Fishing Game and all these. I mean, it is 1:04:09.800 --> 1:04:14.840 everybody's floating the river now, not for recreation but hunting migrants. 1:04:14.920 --> 1:04:20.280 And so then we thought, well, maybe these. 1:04:20.160 --> 1:04:25.720 Are so that when these out of state interlopers, and 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:28.959 at times even the militia who show up to help them, 1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:37.080 could easily communicate with the authorities, say I'm at marker 1:04:37.160 --> 1:04:40.400 number one ninety one or whatever. Then it was just 1:04:40.480 --> 1:04:42.920 a few days after that that the announcement of this 1:04:43.000 --> 1:04:48.680 floating border buoy barrier came up. And my guess is 1:04:48.720 --> 1:04:54.440 the markers will be used to determine where those are deployed, 1:04:55.080 --> 1:04:58.240 where they get moved, and that sort of thing, so 1:04:58.320 --> 1:05:00.560 that then they can be account four. 1:05:01.200 --> 1:05:04.680 Right, So are they proposing the entirety of the river 1:05:04.880 --> 1:05:08.160 be covered by the single They're going to move segments 1:05:08.200 --> 1:05:10.240 of it to areas where they think it's a high 1:05:10.240 --> 1:05:10.920 traffic area. 1:05:12.640 --> 1:05:16.840 They're going to begin an Eagle Pass where four people 1:05:17.120 --> 1:05:23.600 drown just this weekend. But then, according to Steve McGraw, 1:05:23.640 --> 1:05:26.280 who's head of Texas DPS, it sounds like they will 1:05:26.320 --> 1:05:31.560 be putting them all along the river in areas they 1:05:31.600 --> 1:05:33.760 believe are high traffic. 1:05:35.160 --> 1:05:38.920 Right, yeah, yeah, and Jesus Christ, it is the dock 1:05:39.040 --> 1:05:41.920 se and yeah, Eagle Pass is where all those people 1:05:42.000 --> 1:05:45.760 died in the in the anac conditioned trailer. Like I 1:05:45.840 --> 1:05:50.280 think two years ago, right, was that Eagle Pass. 1:05:50.640 --> 1:05:53.920 Those kind of trailer horrors have happened near US and 1:05:54.000 --> 1:06:00.240 fell furious in San Antonio. Unfortunately, they happen throughout the 1:06:00.280 --> 1:06:03.959 border region. And there are so many ports of entry 1:06:04.080 --> 1:06:08.200 land ports of entry along the Texas Mexico border because 1:06:08.560 --> 1:06:11.720 Texas is I mean Mexico is our number one trading 1:06:11.760 --> 1:06:16.320 partner with the US, and we have NAFTA, which established 1:06:16.320 --> 1:06:19.160 the North American Free Trade Zone. So if you have 1:06:19.200 --> 1:06:22.480 a television or a refrigerator, or you drive a car 1:06:22.840 --> 1:06:26.720 in the United States today, chances are those pieces and 1:06:26.840 --> 1:06:31.640 parts are manufactured in Mexico in the Free Trade Zone 1:06:32.000 --> 1:06:34.760 and then they get brought over by truck. Same thing 1:06:34.800 --> 1:06:37.680 with so much of our produce, So the amount of 1:06:37.760 --> 1:06:42.360 that trailer traffic is enormous, and those trailers are used 1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:46.880 for human smuggling at much higher numbers, we should note 1:06:47.320 --> 1:06:53.560 than the river area. Same as for narcotics trafficking. Those 1:06:53.600 --> 1:06:59.960 things are coming across by the truckload and in shipping vessels, 1:07:01.400 --> 1:07:05.560 not in small bundles across the Rio Grand River. 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:09.600 Right, yeah, I think most is I think most narcotic 1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:12.200 center the country through ports of entry, red than between 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:13.800 ports of entry against nodding. 1:07:14.720 --> 1:07:17.440 Yeah, oh absolutely, yeah, yeah. 1:07:17.080 --> 1:07:22.479 Yeah, absolutely, especially the narcotics that are very expensive. Even 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:24.080 when I was an agent in the mid nineties, I 1:07:24.160 --> 1:07:27.240 used to say, why do we only get marijuana and 1:07:27.240 --> 1:07:29.680 and the agents would say, well, because cocaine's too expensive 1:07:29.720 --> 1:07:32.160 to put on somebody's back and hike it through the mountains. Yeah, 1:07:32.200 --> 1:07:35.440 across the river or in the desert too. It's just 1:07:35.560 --> 1:07:38.440 easier to buy off a CBP agent or a Border 1:07:38.440 --> 1:07:40.560 patrol agent and just get waved on through. 1:07:41.080 --> 1:07:44.120 Yeah, they're not like dumb otherwise, Like these these are 1:07:44.200 --> 1:07:46.800 huge money businesses. You're not throwing a half a million 1:07:46.840 --> 1:07:51.320 dollars of cocaine on some guy's back, yeah. 1:07:49.360 --> 1:07:51.840 Right and risking it floating away. 1:07:54.000 --> 1:07:58.120 I mean, yeah, this valuable merchandise. Like they're no like 1:07:58.680 --> 1:08:01.800 no more cavalier with it, like Target is, you know, Like. 1:08:02.920 --> 1:08:07.200 Yeah, the obviously this is part of a sort of 1:08:07.360 --> 1:08:12.800 larger ABBOTT does a lot of posturing on the border, right, 1:08:12.840 --> 1:08:15.480 and that posture has real consequences for migrants, and it 1:08:15.520 --> 1:08:18.000 has real consequences for people living on both sides of 1:08:18.040 --> 1:08:21.040 the border as well, right, especially I think people to 1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:23.320 our previous coverage that will be very well aware of that. 1:08:23.960 --> 1:08:28.080 Perhaps we could sort of characterize this within the context 1:08:28.080 --> 1:08:33.160 of Operation Loan Star within the other like you've said, right, 1:08:33.240 --> 1:08:37.599 the other deployments. It's not just even Texas National Guard 1:08:37.680 --> 1:08:40.040 who are now deployed to the border. So could you 1:08:40.080 --> 1:08:44.920 give us like an overview of all the ridiculous lapping 1:08:45.000 --> 1:08:45.679 that's been done. 1:08:47.920 --> 1:08:52.880 Well, there are twelve or thirteen states to date that 1:08:53.080 --> 1:09:03.120 have sent prison guards, their national Guards, game or wildlife officers, 1:09:03.160 --> 1:09:06.200 and state police to the border. 1:09:06.760 --> 1:09:12.200 And this is related to you two different. 1:09:14.040 --> 1:09:18.719 Campaigns basically by the Border Patrol Union. One is Biden 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:24.200 Border Crisis with that hashtag which they launched in March 1:09:24.240 --> 1:09:28.960 of twenty twenty one, and the other is every State 1:09:29.560 --> 1:09:33.880 is a Border State, which was a battle cry for 1:09:34.320 --> 1:09:38.880 MAGA politicians during the midterms. And so what we see 1:09:38.920 --> 1:09:45.320 now are these red states with governors who want to 1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:55.280 capitalize on looking tough on immigration sending reinforcements to the border. 1:09:55.640 --> 1:09:58.240 DeSantis obviously was the first to do that because he's 1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:02.559 been very vocal about envy Abbot and how Abbot had 1:10:02.640 --> 1:10:06.120 kind of a leg up on him in any campaign because. 1:10:06.040 --> 1:10:09.600 Abbot got the border and Abbot got. 1:10:09.360 --> 1:10:13.840 To as you said, posture there and be you know, 1:10:13.960 --> 1:10:18.720 the new sheriff in town and you know, stepping in where. 1:10:20.200 --> 1:10:24.120 Sleepy Joe is, you know, not performing. 1:10:25.000 --> 1:10:29.360 But what we see in reality is Brandon Judd, who's 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:34.479 the president of the National Border Patrol Council, was stuck 1:10:34.760 --> 1:10:38.680 to Trump. You know, they were best buddies and and 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:41.519 you know, basically campaigning together. 1:10:42.479 --> 1:10:43.640 And then. 1:10:45.000 --> 1:10:48.040 Brandon Judd kind of fell away from Trump when he 1:10:48.120 --> 1:10:54.120 lost reelection and has become Greg Abbott's best buddy and 1:10:54.560 --> 1:11:00.160 press junket sidekick and helped stage the launch of opera 1:11:00.640 --> 1:11:04.200 Lone Star, which you know, was like a Fourth of 1:11:04.320 --> 1:11:08.439 July type parade with the tanks and the helicopters and 1:11:08.479 --> 1:11:11.200 the planes and the boats and the you know, the 1:11:11.240 --> 1:11:16.080 ATV agents and the horses, the whole nine yards. And 1:11:17.680 --> 1:11:20.960 people think, I think most people in the United States 1:11:21.000 --> 1:11:25.479 believe that Abbot is this renegade doing this all on 1:11:25.520 --> 1:11:30.720 his own. And what we see is the reality is 1:11:32.560 --> 1:11:37.720 it is a joint operation between the state government and 1:11:37.800 --> 1:11:41.920 the federal government, but the Feds won't admit to it 1:11:42.600 --> 1:11:46.960 because of the optics. It's bad enough that Biden continued 1:11:47.000 --> 1:11:52.920 border wall construction, which most of his supporters opposed. Now 1:11:53.520 --> 1:11:58.479 he is working hand in glove with Abbot. And when 1:11:58.520 --> 1:12:03.640 I say our experience, what we see daily and what 1:12:03.720 --> 1:12:11.080 I have documented is US Border Patrol working with Texas 1:12:11.160 --> 1:12:16.360 Department of Public Safety troopers and Operation Loan Star Texas 1:12:16.439 --> 1:12:23.360 National guardsmen literally riding in the same vehicles together, responding 1:12:23.400 --> 1:12:29.960 to scenes, patrolling together. And at the Butterfly Center, we 1:12:30.080 --> 1:12:33.599 had National Guard Texas National Guard parked on the levee 1:12:33.640 --> 1:12:38.360 at our property, blocking our access back and forth. And 1:12:38.800 --> 1:12:42.240 I went and said, hey, guys, you know this is 1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:46.599 our property and we have to have access to it 1:12:46.840 --> 1:12:51.639 during regular business hours for you know, my staff who 1:12:51.640 --> 1:12:55.479 are working here and our members and visitors who come 1:12:55.560 --> 1:12:58.200 to explore and enjoy. So I need you all to move. 1:12:58.240 --> 1:13:00.000 I need you to move your humbyes so we can 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:03.400 get back and forth. And I recorded this interaction as 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:07.880 I do all and they said, ma'am, we don't take 1:13:07.920 --> 1:13:11.679 our orders from you. We take our orders from Border Patrol. 1:13:13.320 --> 1:13:15.759 And that was a revelation to me when this happened 1:13:15.800 --> 1:13:18.600 a couple of years ago. So I actually got on 1:13:18.720 --> 1:13:21.559 the phone with the patrol agent in charge, the highest 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:26.759 ranking Border Patrol agent at the McCallen station, and I said, 1:13:27.360 --> 1:13:29.840 his name is Tony Crane. I said, Tony, you need 1:13:29.880 --> 1:13:31.519 to come out here and tell these guys to move. 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:33.680 They're saying they'll only do it for you, and they 1:13:33.720 --> 1:13:37.960 only take orders from you. And Tony drove out there 1:13:38.000 --> 1:13:42.360 to the Butterfly Center, to the levee and instructed the 1:13:42.439 --> 1:13:47.320 National Guard to move their vehicle and they did. And 1:13:47.360 --> 1:13:50.400 this is something we've seen over and over. And I 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:57.080 now have in email commander or Regional director rather of 1:13:57.160 --> 1:14:00.920 Texas DPS, Victor Escalon, who the rest of the nation 1:14:01.080 --> 1:14:05.599 may know from the Uvaldi tragedy. I have email from 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:11.920 him where he is invoking the federal statute that DPS 1:14:11.920 --> 1:14:18.200 claims gives them the authority to ignore our Fourth Amendment 1:14:18.400 --> 1:14:22.760 rights and enter private property without warrant as long as 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:25.880 they're working with Warner Patrol, and they are claiming that 1:14:25.920 --> 1:14:29.639 they are doing so at the request of the United 1:14:29.640 --> 1:14:33.040 States Attorney General according to the federal statute. 1:14:34.240 --> 1:14:39.200 Wow A Importantly, the federal government, in any of its aspects, 1:14:39.280 --> 1:14:41.960 is in saying no, this isn't true, or like that 1:14:42.000 --> 1:14:44.600 they're what do you get, Like you say, hand in 1:14:44.640 --> 1:14:47.439 hand with these and like it's not even just a 1:14:47.600 --> 1:14:51.639 joint federal and state operation. Like I know, I think 1:14:51.680 --> 1:14:55.120 it was South Dakota's deployment. Was it that was funded 1:14:55.120 --> 1:14:58.240 by a wealthy individual? Like the state didn't pay for it. 1:14:59.120 --> 1:15:01.160 I can't remember which to couture it was, but yeah, 1:15:01.280 --> 1:15:04.240 it was funded by a wealthy donor who paid for it. 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:05.320 Yeah. 1:15:05.400 --> 1:15:10.040 So whichever state CHRISTI Noem is in charge of, Yes, 1:15:10.520 --> 1:15:14.160 And I believe that also happened in Kentucky or Tennessee. 1:15:14.720 --> 1:15:15.240 Same thing. 1:15:15.320 --> 1:15:19.719 It was a wealthy donor who funded their state National 1:15:19.720 --> 1:15:20.519 Guard deployment. 1:15:20.840 --> 1:15:23.519 Yeah. And then perhaps Jen, you could explain to people 1:15:24.280 --> 1:15:26.720 why it is so different if they believe they have 1:15:26.960 --> 1:15:31.080 these within one hundred miles of border, and then again 1:15:31.120 --> 1:15:33.439 within twenty five miles of the border, so many of 1:15:33.520 --> 1:15:37.639 your fundamental rights don't apply, And could you explain how 1:15:37.680 --> 1:15:40.400 that works? And then how if the National Guard seat 1:15:40.400 --> 1:15:42.720 themselves is also having the ability to sort of wave 1:15:42.760 --> 1:15:45.200 the Fourth Amendment, what that would mean for the privacy 1:15:45.280 --> 1:15:46.519 of people living along the border. 1:15:47.880 --> 1:15:51.599 In the United States Border Patrol Academy, So I went 1:15:51.600 --> 1:15:55.599 through the academy and I started in June of nineteen 1:15:55.680 --> 1:16:00.720 ninety five, so I can at least testify to that. Basically, 1:16:01.960 --> 1:16:03.840 you know, I had a four year in law, so 1:16:03.880 --> 1:16:07.080 I knew a little basics about it, and then going 1:16:07.120 --> 1:16:09.080 to the academy, it was really kind of sad because 1:16:09.080 --> 1:16:12.280 they don't really teach you much of anything. They're just like, 1:16:12.400 --> 1:16:16.000 you know, their rights are limited. We're allowed within twenty 1:16:16.040 --> 1:16:18.320 five miles of the border by the law to go 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:23.720 on anybody's private property and even search their buildings, as 1:16:23.720 --> 1:16:27.320 long as it's not a domicile, and that can sometimes 1:16:27.320 --> 1:16:31.360 be in question whether it's being used as a domicile 1:16:31.439 --> 1:16:33.920 or we consider it as a domicile. And then within 1:16:34.560 --> 1:16:38.240 one hundred miles of any land or sea border, which 1:16:38.360 --> 1:16:42.160 encompasses two thirds of the United States population, we can 1:16:42.200 --> 1:16:45.240 basically stop you and ask you to prove that you're 1:16:45.240 --> 1:16:52.080 a United States citizen. And so then they increase that 1:16:52.200 --> 1:16:56.439 with checkpoints that are a little ways away from the border, 1:16:56.880 --> 1:17:01.520 where they under the guise of asking for or your citizenship. 1:17:01.760 --> 1:17:07.360 They then get to police American citizens or legal residents. 1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:13.599 And as the years have progressed, Border patrol keeps trying 1:17:13.640 --> 1:17:17.080 to push those authorities. In the beginning, you know, we 1:17:17.080 --> 1:17:20.480 weren't allowed to work with local PD, the local sheriffs. 1:17:20.600 --> 1:17:23.760 There was a very clear separation, a very clear line 1:17:23.800 --> 1:17:27.280 between Border Patrol and local cops, or at least legally 1:17:27.320 --> 1:17:30.719 on written paper, there were supposed to be. And after 1:17:30.840 --> 1:17:33.559 nine to eleven, what we end up seeing is the 1:17:33.560 --> 1:17:38.720 Border Patrol decides to get very heavily invested into surveillance. 1:17:39.280 --> 1:17:42.240 And it's not a coincidence. Former Chief Rodney Scott was 1:17:42.240 --> 1:17:44.920 in charge of that during that time, and his basic 1:17:45.000 --> 1:17:49.479 statement was, you know, if a car is bombed in Iraq, 1:17:49.560 --> 1:17:51.920 the Border Patrol needs to know about it. So they 1:17:51.920 --> 1:17:54.240 considered anything in the world to be important to the 1:17:54.280 --> 1:17:58.160 Border Patrol, and they wanted the Border Patrol to be 1:17:58.360 --> 1:18:01.800 the go to agency and as far as surveillance. So 1:18:01.840 --> 1:18:04.479 that's why you see them being used in Black Lives 1:18:04.520 --> 1:18:07.559 Matter protests and things like this. And we saw them 1:18:07.560 --> 1:18:11.560 a lot in the Trump administration where they were supposedly 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:15.599 guarding federal buildings and then went and attacked them. So 1:18:15.640 --> 1:18:18.400 what you see is the Border Patrol trying to quietly 1:18:18.560 --> 1:18:23.920 eke into what is typically considered peace officer authority. So 1:18:24.400 --> 1:18:27.920 they're trying to get peace officer authority in Texas through 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:31.400 the state legislature, and they just keep trying to expand 1:18:31.439 --> 1:18:35.160 their authority more and more. What I see in Texas specifically, 1:18:35.280 --> 1:18:38.840 is when you look at the history of immigration when 1:18:38.880 --> 1:18:42.520 the United States, when we first you know, when Texas 1:18:42.520 --> 1:18:45.400 first became a state and all this other stuff. Originally 1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:51.720 the states did their own immigration patrolling. And so if 1:18:51.760 --> 1:18:54.160 you went and you just decided you're going to somehow 1:18:54.160 --> 1:18:56.800 you landed on the coast in Georgia, then you would 1:18:56.800 --> 1:19:00.400 have to go to a Georgian official and pay whatever 1:19:00.439 --> 1:19:02.280 it is that they require of you and stuff. And 1:19:02.320 --> 1:19:04.879 so what I see more and more is like Texas 1:19:05.479 --> 1:19:08.400 is taken back that authority and saying we're the ones 1:19:08.439 --> 1:19:10.599 that are going to say this, and so then they 1:19:10.680 --> 1:19:14.360 can make money off of the deterrence policies and all 1:19:14.400 --> 1:19:18.040 of this other stuff. So it's just a constant expansion 1:19:18.400 --> 1:19:21.599 of the rights of the cops, while at the same 1:19:21.680 --> 1:19:28.599 time constantly reducing the rights to the people who live 1:19:28.680 --> 1:19:30.320 here and even the people that cross here. A lot 1:19:30.360 --> 1:19:33.400 of people think, they'll say, you know that migrants don't 1:19:33.439 --> 1:19:34.880 have any constitutional rights. 1:19:34.920 --> 1:19:35.719 Well that's not true. 1:19:35.760 --> 1:19:39.519 They have constitutional rights because it says people in the 1:19:39.640 --> 1:19:44.560 US Constitution, it doesn't say citizens. So in certain in 1:19:44.640 --> 1:19:46.760 certain areas it will say citizens. And then that is 1:19:47.439 --> 1:19:51.800 exclusive to United States citizens, but they're you know, the 1:19:52.400 --> 1:19:58.519 basic rights are afforded to even migrants. But because the 1:19:58.600 --> 1:20:01.240 migrants don't have much of a void, the border patrol 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:04.639 gets away with with everything. Secret teams, cover up teams, 1:20:04.680 --> 1:20:07.280 and all this other stuff. Border patrol agents will just 1:20:07.280 --> 1:20:10.720 flat out tell you constitution doesn't exist down here, and 1:20:10.760 --> 1:20:11.920 they never get in trouble for it. 1:20:12.000 --> 1:20:16.320 So yeah, one of one of the things Jen just 1:20:16.479 --> 1:20:23.360 touched on is Texas DPS getting in on this immigration business. 1:20:24.200 --> 1:20:30.519 Is when Governor Abbott declared that Operation Loan Star would 1:20:30.520 --> 1:20:36.479 be targeting Hispanic males and in some places they talk 1:20:36.520 --> 1:20:40.920 about of fighting age. So they're already depicting all of 1:20:40.960 --> 1:20:46.040 these individuals as like soldiers in some invasion in a 1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:52.520 gang war, and you know that they're again hostile combatants 1:20:52.560 --> 1:20:55.880 to the United States. But they were going to charge 1:20:55.880 --> 1:21:00.360 them all with criminal trespass. So we hear a lot 1:21:00.360 --> 1:21:03.040 about how awful the cartel is and how much money 1:21:03.080 --> 1:21:06.400 they take from migrants and then hold them for ransom, 1:21:06.640 --> 1:21:11.160 and how expensive it is to get across. Well, once 1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:14.559 they get across the state of Texas becomes the cartel, 1:21:15.840 --> 1:21:20.639 they arrest them, charge them with criminal trespass, put them 1:21:20.640 --> 1:21:25.760 in the county jail. It's a five thousand dollars fine. 1:21:26.160 --> 1:21:30.920 Then when they're released from state custody, they're immediately handed 1:21:31.040 --> 1:21:35.760 over to federal detention, and that is generally the for 1:21:36.000 --> 1:21:41.519 profit geogroup or cor civic. And there my understanding is 1:21:42.120 --> 1:21:46.920 fines for detention can be ten thousand to twelve thousand 1:21:47.120 --> 1:21:55.080 dollars for your federal detention. And so here we have 1:21:55.680 --> 1:21:59.480 it used to be just the for a profit federal 1:21:59.520 --> 1:22:09.000 detention facilities cashing in on our criminal immigration policies. And 1:22:09.040 --> 1:22:11.439 Governor Abbot's like, hey, why aren't we getting a piece 1:22:11.479 --> 1:22:14.880 of the pie. So that is what Operation Loan Star 1:22:15.160 --> 1:22:19.400 is really about. It's not about public safety. It's not 1:22:19.520 --> 1:22:22.840 that all this fetanyl is coming across the Rio Grande 1:22:22.960 --> 1:22:29.639 River being smuggled by migrants. It's about chi ching chi Ching, 1:22:29.800 --> 1:22:33.559 chi ching, chiching, putting all of them in to the 1:22:33.680 --> 1:22:36.439 county jail at five thousand dollars ahead. 1:22:37.200 --> 1:22:42.400 Yeah, yeah, and it's all the while right like he's that. 1:22:42.520 --> 1:22:45.559 I know, some of the Texas National Guard people aren't 1:22:45.600 --> 1:22:48.960 getting the benefits they would normally get if they've been 1:22:49.000 --> 1:22:51.600 mobilized or deployed because it's a state deployment, not a 1:22:51.640 --> 1:22:57.080 federal deployment. And like as much as Abbott and DeSantis 1:22:57.120 --> 1:22:59.280 try and paint, the border is a dangerous place full 1:22:59.320 --> 1:23:02.320 of like had no like drug warlords and cartel violence. 1:23:03.120 --> 1:23:07.760 Overwhelmingly the people in that in Lone Star who have 1:23:07.840 --> 1:23:11.479 died have died because they've got drunk and drove because 1:23:11.680 --> 1:23:14.320 they had an accident with a personally owned firearm. Because 1:23:14.360 --> 1:23:17.360 Texas law doesn't allow them to stop the National God 1:23:17.360 --> 1:23:18.439 bringing their own weapons. 1:23:19.120 --> 1:23:22.760 They're they're not getting into gunfights with Cikarios, right, Like, 1:23:22.840 --> 1:23:26.800 it's not it's not any any anything like that. It's 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:30.120 the standard problem of taking a bunch of men away 1:23:30.160 --> 1:23:32.400 from the place they normally live and making them do 1:23:32.520 --> 1:23:33.400 mine numbing duty. 1:23:34.000 --> 1:23:40.000 Yeah, yeah, they're they're doing mine numbing duty in you know, 1:23:41.080 --> 1:23:46.440 exasperating heat. It's boring as hell. We see them asleep 1:23:46.479 --> 1:23:53.200 in vehicles, watching Netflix, doing other things. When National Guard 1:23:53.560 --> 1:23:58.519 totaled their Enterprise rental truck on the gate at the 1:23:58.560 --> 1:24:02.679 National Butterfly Center, what we found were bud light cans 1:24:03.439 --> 1:24:08.120 on the ground, which we can only assume bounced out 1:24:08.160 --> 1:24:12.000 of the truck bed when that truck made impact and 1:24:12.200 --> 1:24:20.080 was destroyed. The local police will not release any public 1:24:20.160 --> 1:24:26.600 information related to calls and reports that they have to 1:24:26.640 --> 1:24:34.680 take of drunken disorderly conduct, noise complaints, property damage, sexual assault, 1:24:34.920 --> 1:24:39.879 all of these things happening at the hotels where National 1:24:39.920 --> 1:24:46.000 Guard is staying. But we know from visitors and from 1:24:46.439 --> 1:24:48.719 property managers and others that. 1:24:48.640 --> 1:24:51.240 This is happening regularly because. 1:24:51.800 --> 1:24:56.280 They don't get leadership and it's frankly, it's like really 1:24:56.320 --> 1:24:59.280 young kids that are down there. And the other day 1:25:00.080 --> 1:25:03.960 that we need to say too, is that the National 1:25:03.960 --> 1:25:07.800 Guard that's being posted there, the young National Guard kids 1:25:07.840 --> 1:25:11.519 are seeing increase rates of suicide. And that's that's something 1:25:11.560 --> 1:25:15.000 that's particular to Border Patrol agents because when you're an 1:25:15.040 --> 1:25:18.519 oppressor and you do that cut of work, then you're 1:25:18.560 --> 1:25:21.439 going to end up the suicide rates go through the roof, 1:25:21.479 --> 1:25:24.160 as they are with the Border Patrol, and now you're 1:25:24.160 --> 1:25:27.960 seeing that with the National Guard. But Marianna's right, there's 1:25:28.000 --> 1:25:31.599 a lot of stuff that they're suppressing about what these 1:25:31.680 --> 1:25:35.400 National Guard kids are getting into because they're bored down there. 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:37.799 So they're sitting down there in Texas drinking and opening 1:25:37.800 --> 1:25:39.720 it up and getting in trouble. But it's all kind 1:25:39.760 --> 1:25:41.000 of hush hush quiet about that. 1:25:41.160 --> 1:25:45.960 Yeah, and not only are they bored, but these are, 1:25:46.120 --> 1:25:48.639 like you said, eighteen nineteen, twenty twenty one year old's 1:25:48.640 --> 1:25:52.280 getting paid six thousand dollars a month, like they have 1:25:52.560 --> 1:25:56.360 never had this kind of cash before, and what are 1:25:56.360 --> 1:26:01.120 they going to do with it? Go buy guns at 1:26:01.120 --> 1:26:02.320 our local pawn shop. 1:26:03.720 --> 1:26:06.760 They pay the National Guard that will, that's what they're 1:26:06.800 --> 1:26:07.439 being paid. 1:26:08.040 --> 1:26:12.360 And initially their taxes were not being withheld or anything. 1:26:12.479 --> 1:26:17.040 So yeah, that was a whole nother issue. And then 1:26:17.160 --> 1:26:21.120 for a while they were trying to unionize because they 1:26:21.120 --> 1:26:26.280 were not getting the benefits of a regular deployment. And 1:26:26.320 --> 1:26:31.160 the ones who were working in law enforcement already as 1:26:31.240 --> 1:26:36.200 police officers, firefighters, paramedics and such, they also, while they're 1:26:36.240 --> 1:26:41.880 on deployment do not accrue their hours toward their pensions, 1:26:42.760 --> 1:26:47.120 so they're taking another hit for that. And so these 1:26:47.160 --> 1:26:49.280 were all things that I guess the state didn't really 1:26:49.360 --> 1:26:51.920 think through when they called all these people up and 1:26:51.960 --> 1:26:56.240 forced them to come sit on the border and do 1:26:56.400 --> 1:26:58.280 mind numbing work. 1:26:58.360 --> 1:27:03.320 For the most part, it's a terrible idea, like comprehensive. 1:27:03.400 --> 1:27:05.439 It's one of those things if you if you spent 1:27:05.520 --> 1:27:09.080 any time studying the surge in Iraq and kind of 1:27:09.080 --> 1:27:11.240 the later part of the Bush Ears and some of 1:27:11.280 --> 1:27:13.280 the shit that happened when they just grabbed a bunch 1:27:13.320 --> 1:27:15.519 of National Guard guys and through the like, it's a 1:27:15.520 --> 1:27:17.640 lot of the same shit. It's people who were like 1:27:17.960 --> 1:27:21.320 finding ways to get alcohol and drugs, who were crashing cars, 1:27:21.320 --> 1:27:25.040 who were because like, yeah, you were. It's just this 1:27:25.120 --> 1:27:27.720 is this is an inevitable consequence, which is why you 1:27:27.720 --> 1:27:31.400 shouldn't do something like this unless there's like a dire 1:27:31.560 --> 1:27:34.040 reason to need to bring the National Guard into a 1:27:34.080 --> 1:27:35.839 situation like a natural disaster. 1:27:37.160 --> 1:27:38.960 Yeah, go ahead. 1:27:39.080 --> 1:27:41.839 I would I would say that they all need house mothers. 1:27:42.240 --> 1:27:46.559 I mean, like fraternities have and stuff, because every time 1:27:47.120 --> 1:27:49.800 I run into one of these young men and they 1:27:49.920 --> 1:27:52.559 start to like look at me or open their mouth 1:27:52.600 --> 1:27:55.840 a certain way, I just want to grab them by 1:27:55.880 --> 1:28:00.760 the ear and be like, ah, you know, junior, I'm 1:28:00.760 --> 1:28:02.080 gonna spank you. 1:28:02.080 --> 1:28:05.959 You know, my first snapper. 1:28:06.560 --> 1:28:09.639 Yeah you are nineteen. You should not be in this 1:28:09.680 --> 1:28:13.760 position right now. Yeah, get out of here. Yeah go ahead, 1:28:15.680 --> 1:28:17.240 we'll take your gun from you too. 1:28:22.640 --> 1:28:22.880 Yeah. 1:28:23.160 --> 1:28:25.040 But we spoke to a few of them at grub 1:28:25.040 --> 1:28:26.400 At and I when we were down there, and one 1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:27.600 of them was just saying like he was trying to 1:28:27.600 --> 1:28:30.000 get some money for college, and yeah, I don't think 1:28:30.000 --> 1:28:33.880 they're reccring those benefits because if they're under state orders 1:28:33.920 --> 1:28:36.400 in it, they don't get it. So Greg Abbot's kind 1:28:36.400 --> 1:28:39.839 of screwing everyone apart from himself and his little friends. 1:28:39.880 --> 1:28:43.960 I guess maybe to finish up. I know that one. 1:28:45.200 --> 1:28:48.120 I think the only case like I can come across 1:28:48.120 --> 1:28:50.839 of this happening of someone dying trying to rescue migrants 1:28:50.960 --> 1:28:54.880 was a National Guard soldier who tried to rescue some 1:28:54.920 --> 1:28:57.959 people from the river and drowned from what I understand, 1:28:58.320 --> 1:29:05.160 and like, obviously this drowning barrier is going to if 1:29:05.240 --> 1:29:08.840 border patroller even invested in investing in getting people from 1:29:08.840 --> 1:29:10.519 the river, which they might not be if they're from 1:29:10.560 --> 1:29:13.160 the Mexican site, if they're still on the Mexican side 1:29:13.200 --> 1:29:17.000 of the border, right in theory, would put those people, 1:29:17.520 --> 1:29:20.479 those like National Guard and Border patrol agents in danger 1:29:20.520 --> 1:29:25.360 to So what have Border patrol to say about the 1:29:25.720 --> 1:29:27.080 floating barrier so far? 1:29:28.240 --> 1:29:30.280 They haven't said anything about it so far, and there 1:29:30.360 --> 1:29:32.639 have been a few Border patrol agents who've lost their 1:29:32.640 --> 1:29:35.479 lives jumping into the river as well. There have been 1:29:35.520 --> 1:29:37.920 other migrants who have lost their lives trying to save 1:29:37.920 --> 1:29:40.519 their children and so forth. Migrants die every day in 1:29:40.560 --> 1:29:45.439 that river, and the Border Patrol is just going to 1:29:45.479 --> 1:29:48.800 stay quiet about it because they like it's it's their 1:29:48.920 --> 1:29:52.759 management who's gone along with it. And if they didn't 1:29:52.840 --> 1:29:55.360 like and if the buying administration didn't like it, then 1:29:55.400 --> 1:29:57.200 they would come out and say so, or they would 1:29:57.200 --> 1:29:59.320 come out and have Chief Gloria Chaveez come out and 1:29:59.320 --> 1:30:00.320 say no, we're not going. 1:30:00.240 --> 1:30:01.120 To have this. 1:30:01.120 --> 1:30:03.160 This is going to kill people. This is not right, 1:30:03.640 --> 1:30:06.479 you know on our first blah blah blah, which we 1:30:06.680 --> 1:30:09.040 all know it's bullshit. But the truth is is they 1:30:09.080 --> 1:30:09.840 really don't care. 1:30:10.080 --> 1:30:11.000 They just don't care. 1:30:11.040 --> 1:30:13.320 And as they say in the Border Patrol, and we 1:30:13.439 --> 1:30:15.720 learn and you all learned. I knew it, but you 1:30:15.760 --> 1:30:17.839 all learn from the ten to fifteen group on Facebook 1:30:17.880 --> 1:30:19.800 they call them floaters and take pictures of them and 1:30:19.840 --> 1:30:24.080 make fun of it. So the Border Patrol could care less. 1:30:24.240 --> 1:30:26.200 It's just one less migrant. They got a process. 1:30:27.200 --> 1:30:31.599 Well, and you know, as Jim said, if US Border 1:30:31.680 --> 1:30:35.960 Patrol was opposed to this new border barrier, they would 1:30:36.040 --> 1:30:38.120 say something well, I think it's. 1:30:38.000 --> 1:30:38.880 Even worse than that. 1:30:40.280 --> 1:30:44.000 In twenty eighteen, Trump got border wall funding, and as 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:47.960 you mentioned, he had his you know, Commando climb, all 1:30:48.000 --> 1:30:51.360 these border wall prototypes in the desert and all of that. 1:30:52.439 --> 1:30:56.240 In twenty nineteen he got his second tranch of border 1:30:56.280 --> 1:31:01.720 wall funding, but twenty and twenty twenty one were continuing resolutions, 1:31:02.520 --> 1:31:06.800 so he was getting barter wall funding after that, but 1:31:06.920 --> 1:31:14.599 it was always for existing approved designs, and those are 1:31:14.600 --> 1:31:20.360 the concrete with the steel ballards. So for even though 1:31:20.400 --> 1:31:26.160 Trump floated the idea of this Wui border barrier, this 1:31:26.200 --> 1:31:31.720 floating border wall, to get congressional approval or US Army 1:31:31.760 --> 1:31:34.800 Corps of Engineer approval for such a thing would have 1:31:34.840 --> 1:31:38.840 been an issue. Also there's the issue of the International 1:31:38.920 --> 1:31:41.919 Boundary and Water Commission Treaty, which is a bi national 1:31:42.000 --> 1:31:47.720 treaty with Mexico that governs the Rio Grande River, the 1:31:47.760 --> 1:31:51.040 water that flows in it, the boundaries, who gets to 1:31:51.080 --> 1:31:54.439 take how much water from it, things that are built 1:31:54.479 --> 1:31:59.080 and might affect the flow of the river. As Jen mentioned, 1:31:59.680 --> 1:32:01.840 the inter national boundary is the middle of the river, 1:32:02.080 --> 1:32:05.320 no matter where the river is flowing now, because over 1:32:05.400 --> 1:32:10.200 millions of years, it has shifted. The channel has shifted many, 1:32:10.200 --> 1:32:17.160 many times and greatly. So we know the FEDS probably 1:32:17.240 --> 1:32:21.800 border patrol with the Trump administration. So DHS wanted this 1:32:21.880 --> 1:32:26.320 floating border wall. The easiest way for them to get 1:32:26.320 --> 1:32:32.360 it is to have Governor Abbott do it. In two 1:32:32.439 --> 1:32:38.559 thousand and five, the real ID Act, in that act 1:32:38.680 --> 1:32:43.479 of legislation, Congress gave the Secretary of Homeland Security the 1:32:43.560 --> 1:32:50.519 authority to waive every law local, state, federal for border barrier. 1:32:50.840 --> 1:32:54.040 So it doesn't say border wall, it says border barrier. 1:32:54.160 --> 1:32:59.280 So presumably this buoy border barrier would also be covered, 1:33:00.280 --> 1:33:03.120 so the FEDS don't have to worry about something like 1:33:03.200 --> 1:33:06.960 the National Environmental Policy Act or the Endangered Species Act 1:33:07.640 --> 1:33:13.519 or the Rivers and Harbors Act in deploying this. But 1:33:14.120 --> 1:33:18.840 they do not have authority to waive treaties or the Constitution. 1:33:19.960 --> 1:33:21.120 So since. 1:33:23.520 --> 1:33:26.559 At least two thousand and five, the federal government has 1:33:26.640 --> 1:33:32.599 been trying to devise ways to effectively waive the IBWC treaty. 1:33:33.720 --> 1:33:35.680 One of the ways in which they have done that 1:33:35.840 --> 1:33:41.559 is with the We Build the Wall campaign, which built 1:33:41.640 --> 1:33:45.840 you know, they built border barrier on the International boundary 1:33:45.920 --> 1:33:50.280 line in Sunland Park, New Mexico and in Mission Texas, 1:33:50.960 --> 1:33:56.200 and the US government settled with them, allowing this illegal 1:33:56.320 --> 1:34:01.400 structure to stand in violation of the Tree in spite 1:34:02.000 --> 1:34:07.960 of Mexico's objections, thereby setting a legal precedent, effectively waiving 1:34:08.000 --> 1:34:08.519 the treaty. 1:34:10.160 --> 1:34:16.240 But now Abbott can do this, and who's going to 1:34:16.280 --> 1:34:16.720 sue him? 1:34:18.000 --> 1:34:21.839 The IBWC isn't going to do a damn thing because 1:34:22.360 --> 1:34:25.040 they have no authority to sue on their own. They 1:34:25.040 --> 1:34:27.600 have to go to the federal government and ask the 1:34:27.600 --> 1:34:32.200 Department of Justice to sue on their behalf. And it's 1:34:32.240 --> 1:34:37.519 the Department of Justice that has already settled with Fisher 1:34:37.560 --> 1:34:42.880 Industries for the we build the wall fraud fence in 1:34:43.000 --> 1:34:47.479 violation of the treaty. The other issue is Texas doesn't 1:34:47.560 --> 1:34:52.000 have to abide by NEPA or any equivalent law. And 1:34:52.080 --> 1:34:55.200 we know that the FEDS have in the past devised 1:34:56.240 --> 1:35:02.080 really nasty reach arounds for the law where if they 1:35:02.120 --> 1:35:05.960 get busted doing something illegal like having Customs and Border 1:35:06.000 --> 1:35:11.840 Protection spray imas appear a broad spectrum herbicide that is 1:35:11.880 --> 1:35:15.960 a known carcinogen all over people, animals, and plants on 1:35:16.040 --> 1:35:19.720 the border, they get sued and made to stop that, 1:35:20.320 --> 1:35:22.680 they'll simply pass the money through to the state of 1:35:22.720 --> 1:35:27.080 Texas and ask them to continue it. And I think 1:35:27.160 --> 1:35:34.240 this floating buoy border barrier is exactly that kind of thing. 1:35:34.640 --> 1:35:38.720 The Biden administration can say, we're not doing it, and 1:35:38.760 --> 1:35:42.600 they don't have to get approval for this design, and 1:35:42.640 --> 1:35:45.120 they'll just find a way to either pass the money 1:35:45.160 --> 1:35:50.480 through to Texas or allow Texas to continue to basically 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:56.960 fundraise for it by prosecuting immigrants for criminal trespass and 1:35:57.000 --> 1:35:58.800 finding them to get out of county jail. 1:36:00.320 --> 1:36:00.599 Yeah. 1:36:00.640 --> 1:36:01.839 Wow, that is dark. 1:36:03.360 --> 1:36:05.680 I think it's interesting to point out though, that when 1:36:05.720 --> 1:36:11.679 Governor do See of Arizona put up his train car thing, yeah, Biden, 1:36:11.800 --> 1:36:14.840 the Biden administration did get involved with that and they 1:36:14.960 --> 1:36:17.320 and they were upset about that. So far, we haven't 1:36:17.320 --> 1:36:20.920 seen anything about this, and so we'll see if they 1:36:20.960 --> 1:36:23.479 deploy it and the Biden administration stays quiet about it. 1:36:23.720 --> 1:36:27.880 Yeah. I mean, we're closing in on like November twenty 1:36:27.920 --> 1:36:32.759 twenty four, and I think Biden really is very sensitive 1:36:32.760 --> 1:36:36.920 about being seen as quote unquote weak on the border, 1:36:37.080 --> 1:36:41.599 and like, given the absolute disaster it was the end 1:36:41.600 --> 1:36:43.360 of Title forty two and the way they handled that, 1:36:44.200 --> 1:36:47.680 and they didn't really say anything when border patrol with 1:36:47.880 --> 1:36:50.880 clearly holding people in conditions that are in violation of 1:36:50.920 --> 1:36:55.719 their own detention standards. Like, I don't have high hopes 1:36:55.760 --> 1:36:57.000 for the Biden administration. 1:36:57.479 --> 1:37:00.120 It's yeah, it's interesting because you would think, like a 1:37:00.160 --> 1:37:03.280 whole thing from the Union and everybody that is pro 1:37:03.479 --> 1:37:05.880 border patrol and anti immigrant was like, if you in 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:08.960 Title forty two, then then it's just going to overwhelm 1:37:08.960 --> 1:37:11.519 the border patrol and more people will come. And we 1:37:11.880 --> 1:37:14.479 kept saying for a year like no, that's not going 1:37:14.560 --> 1:37:16.880 to happen. It's going to be drastically cut. And so 1:37:16.920 --> 1:37:19.360 it's drastically cut. And you would think the Bide administration 1:37:19.439 --> 1:37:20.479 would be like look what I did. 1:37:21.120 --> 1:37:23.800 Yeah, yeah, but they're not. 1:37:24.080 --> 1:37:26.599 I mean like they have no clue how to talk 1:37:26.600 --> 1:37:28.479 about the border and what to do on the border. 1:37:28.800 --> 1:37:29.439 It's sad. 1:37:29.800 --> 1:37:33.040 Well, it's this double edged sword of get in line, 1:37:33.479 --> 1:37:36.240 do it the legal way. So the people who say 1:37:36.280 --> 1:37:39.200 we're not anti immigrant, we just want them to do 1:37:39.280 --> 1:37:42.519 it the legal way and get in line. So Title 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:45.920 forty two ends, we've got the CBP one app which 1:37:45.960 --> 1:37:49.240 gives them an appointment so they can stand in line 1:37:49.600 --> 1:37:52.240 to cross at a legal point of port of entry 1:37:52.240 --> 1:37:56.599 and do it legally. And now they've got to find 1:37:56.640 --> 1:37:59.040 a way to thwart that and to mess it up. 1:37:59.400 --> 1:38:03.120 And Biden, as you said, is not saying, look at 1:38:03.160 --> 1:38:06.439 what we did. We've got everybody standing in line doing 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:07.439 it the legal way. 1:38:08.120 --> 1:38:08.360 Yeah. 1:38:08.400 --> 1:38:10.320 I think they don't want to look at CBP one too, 1:38:10.520 --> 1:38:13.639 given what a disaster it's been and how biased it's 1:38:13.680 --> 1:38:16.840 been and how bad it continues to be. For sure, 1:38:17.040 --> 1:38:20.880 for sure, they've failed to offer any other options. And yeah, 1:38:20.920 --> 1:38:23.240 I don't really have any hope that things will not 1:38:23.760 --> 1:38:26.439 just get worse. There seems to be a bipods and 1:38:26.439 --> 1:38:29.000 consensus that it's okay to kill lots of people trying 1:38:29.000 --> 1:38:32.920 to come to our country for help because it's bad 1:38:32.960 --> 1:38:34.360 if folks news just mean to you. 1:38:35.680 --> 1:38:39.759 Jen has been very vocal and produced lots and lots 1:38:39.840 --> 1:38:45.240 of research and documentation on how our deterrence policies are 1:38:45.280 --> 1:38:50.519 designed to kill and they're not a whole lot of 1:38:50.560 --> 1:38:55.600 people using the G word, but Jen has been courageous 1:38:55.680 --> 1:39:00.320 enough to do it. I was recently told by my 1:39:00.400 --> 1:39:04.720 employer that I could not use it, and I think 1:39:04.760 --> 1:39:07.559 it's it's a horror, but Jen can speak to it. 1:39:11.880 --> 1:39:13.519 We have to do a whole other episode. 1:39:13.800 --> 1:39:15.080 Yeah, I think we should be. 1:39:17.080 --> 1:39:17.800 We will. 1:39:17.920 --> 1:39:21.760 We're definitely going to keep covering this because it's one 1:39:21.800 --> 1:39:24.360 of the things it just disappears from a lot of 1:39:24.479 --> 1:39:27.640 national media in between election cycles or in between. 1:39:27.320 --> 1:39:30.280 Well and unfortunately it's it's one of the things where 1:39:30.360 --> 1:39:32.599 kind of the numbers are heading in the wrong direction 1:39:33.840 --> 1:39:38.960 nationwide because like the border, like the right is winning 1:39:39.040 --> 1:39:42.040 on border stuff right now, the right is winning on immigration. Like, 1:39:42.720 --> 1:39:46.439 there's some pretty dark polling likes as much as you know, 1:39:46.520 --> 1:39:48.719 some of the last couple of elections have been positive 1:39:48.760 --> 1:39:51.680 in terms of the pitiful performance of like kind of 1:39:51.720 --> 1:39:55.559 maga Republicans. Like if you if you look at kind 1:39:55.600 --> 1:39:58.880 of how Americans are polling on border issues and immigration issues, 1:39:58.920 --> 1:40:02.000 it's it's pretty bleak at the moment. And I don't really, 1:40:02.240 --> 1:40:04.840 I don't think anyone has a great clear clue as 1:40:04.880 --> 1:40:08.200 to like how to reverse that at the moment, which 1:40:08.240 --> 1:40:10.160 isn't to say that it can't be reversed, it's just 1:40:11.320 --> 1:40:12.839 it's it's difficult. 1:40:13.840 --> 1:40:16.719 Well, it's difficult, especially when the Democrats are always ceding 1:40:16.800 --> 1:40:19.960 the argument to the Republicans, like they're afraid to make 1:40:20.000 --> 1:40:24.840 the argument that a robust and humane asylum system that 1:40:24.960 --> 1:40:28.640 can inspect the people requesting asylum is a national security 1:40:28.640 --> 1:40:31.000 issue and you need one. You can't just not have 1:40:31.120 --> 1:40:34.040 a NASH. You can't have an asylum not have an 1:40:34.080 --> 1:40:37.280 asylum system. You have to have It's an essential part 1:40:37.320 --> 1:40:41.400 to the national security infrastructure. So people that argue that 1:40:41.439 --> 1:40:44.920 we shouldn't have an asylum system because it's a threat 1:40:44.960 --> 1:40:48.599 to national security or completely ignorant about what they're talking about, 1:40:48.640 --> 1:40:52.240 and so they have to start framing it as as 1:40:52.280 --> 1:40:54.880 a national security issue, you know, one where we can 1:40:55.160 --> 1:40:57.760 have people come and be inspected and so forth. And 1:40:57.800 --> 1:41:00.960 then the people who are the affair various people. Yeah, 1:41:01.000 --> 1:41:03.120 they're going to go in between the ports of entry, fine, 1:41:03.240 --> 1:41:07.000 arrest those people, but let's have a humane system otherwise. 1:41:07.720 --> 1:41:12.400 It's also fundamental to the success of our economy, and 1:41:13.000 --> 1:41:19.840 with the US birth rate is declining and without a robust, safe, 1:41:21.240 --> 1:41:26.760 timely immigration system, ideally one that allows people to go 1:41:26.920 --> 1:41:30.559 back and forth. Because what I hear from people here 1:41:30.720 --> 1:41:33.320 is I miss my country. I want to return to 1:41:33.400 --> 1:41:36.160 my country. I want to come here to see my family, 1:41:36.439 --> 1:41:39.360 to work for a season or for a spell, to 1:41:39.479 --> 1:41:42.800 send money home, but then I want to be able 1:41:42.880 --> 1:41:46.960 to return, and our current system it's too deadly to 1:41:47.120 --> 1:41:51.840 allow them to make it through and then go back 1:41:51.920 --> 1:41:54.080 and attempt to do that a second time. 1:41:55.640 --> 1:41:57.200 Another issue related to. 1:41:59.400 --> 1:42:05.880 The narrative and read winning on immigration is we found 1:42:06.040 --> 1:42:08.559 at the Butterfly Center that when. 1:42:08.479 --> 1:42:11.000 Biden continued building border wall. 1:42:11.800 --> 1:42:15.280 And we said, oh my gosh, you know this is 1:42:15.360 --> 1:42:18.120 what's happening, and we posted photos and video and everything 1:42:18.200 --> 1:42:24.439 of it, people who had supported US, Democrats, liberals with 1:42:24.520 --> 1:42:29.160 a capital L who had supported US said, you're lying, 1:42:30.240 --> 1:42:36.320 or that's just their continuing trumps. They had to and 1:42:36.439 --> 1:42:43.599 then when we contradicted every one of those arguments with facts, 1:42:44.920 --> 1:42:48.400 then they said, oh, well, if Biden's doing it, then 1:42:48.439 --> 1:42:51.560 there must be a good reason. And you know, the 1:42:51.680 --> 1:42:55.360 US can't accept everybody. And you know, you get this 1:42:55.640 --> 1:42:57.519 walking back of. 1:42:59.320 --> 1:42:59.920 All of the. 1:43:03.120 --> 1:43:06.840 Things that they were saying when Trump was president. 1:43:06.600 --> 1:43:07.320 About. 1:43:08.920 --> 1:43:15.080 Being humane, about needing an effective system, about creative solutions 1:43:15.240 --> 1:43:18.720 and all of this, and now it's suddenly, well, you know, 1:43:19.520 --> 1:43:25.479 we can't let everybody in. And and so I have 1:43:25.600 --> 1:43:28.400 honestly found and I'm going to take a lot of 1:43:28.439 --> 1:43:31.880 hit flat for this, but there's basically no difference between 1:43:31.920 --> 1:43:36.120 a moderate Republican and a liberal capital l. 1:43:38.400 --> 1:43:42.000 Yeah, it's me seems that way sent me. Uh, Trump 1:43:42.040 --> 1:43:43.920 had months of time before you two, Biden had years 1:43:43.920 --> 1:43:44.040 of it. 1:43:44.160 --> 1:43:47.760 Like it's yeah, certainly, I mean it's it's I think 1:43:47.800 --> 1:43:50.000 pretty much impossible to argue with that, at least on 1:43:50.160 --> 1:43:52.439 the on a broad scale, like if you're just kind 1:43:52.479 --> 1:43:56.920 of like looking at at national trends. Uh, there's there's 1:43:57.000 --> 1:43:59.000 ample support for that argument. 1:43:59.640 --> 1:44:03.200 Yeah, Biden, I mean Obama deported more people than anyone. 1:44:03.000 --> 1:44:08.479 Absolutely, Yeah, massive number. Yeah, well cool, yeah yeah. 1:44:10.400 --> 1:44:10.599 Yeah. 1:44:11.520 --> 1:44:14.280 Where can people find out more terrible stuff about the border? 1:44:14.479 --> 1:44:16.040 Is there in podcast they can listen to. 1:44:18.280 --> 1:44:21.680 We do have a podcast, Border Patrol Watch. Marianna and 1:44:21.800 --> 1:44:23.920 I have kind of started it just to talk about 1:44:23.960 --> 1:44:26.800 a lot of these issues that we feel are being 1:44:26.960 --> 1:44:31.120 left out. And it's on YouTube. We also have a 1:44:31.400 --> 1:44:36.880 TikTok account and Twitter for the moment, we'll see how 1:44:36.960 --> 1:44:41.920 that goes. And Facebook and Facebook and Instagram, And there 1:44:42.000 --> 1:44:45.280 is Border patrol watch dot com. Yeah, and that list. 1:44:45.680 --> 1:44:48.439 There's a page on there for all the agents arrested 1:44:48.560 --> 1:44:50.480 for rape and pedophilia. 1:44:51.880 --> 1:44:53.120 There's a corruption page. 1:44:53.280 --> 1:44:56.280 There's a page on how they try and indoctrinate the 1:44:56.439 --> 1:44:59.479 youth down here on the Borderlands and so forth. 1:44:59.600 --> 1:45:01.280 So I'm all about that jazz. 1:45:01.920 --> 1:45:06.200 Yeah, that's hashtag on a first and so where could 1:45:06.200 --> 1:45:08.200 people it's all buttiplar watch. How about you two? Do 1:45:08.240 --> 1:45:10.680 you guys have individual accounts? Where can they find you? 1:45:11.880 --> 1:45:15.120 Jin is doing most of this, and I believe it's 1:45:15.200 --> 1:45:20.840 under the Border Patrol watch banner. Yeah, because you know, 1:45:21.000 --> 1:45:26.519 both of us found ourselves targeted or throttled or being 1:45:26.600 --> 1:45:33.120 you know, really suppressed by Twitter and Facebook. 1:45:33.439 --> 1:45:36.120 And lost my forty thousand followers. 1:45:36.200 --> 1:45:40.559 Yeah wow, Yeah, but buttomtry watch is great. 1:45:40.560 --> 1:45:43.200 You had a great thread on agents who have facing 1:45:43.360 --> 1:45:46.599 charges for sexual assault, and that's a very small minority 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:50.080 of agents who have done sexual assaults certainly, but yeah, 1:45:50.080 --> 1:45:51.800 there's some really good information for people on there. 1:45:53.520 --> 1:45:56.000 Those are just the ones who are being prosecuted or 1:45:56.080 --> 1:45:57.120 have been convicted. 1:45:57.560 --> 1:46:00.200 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, most of them sadly have not, and 1:46:00.320 --> 1:46:01.920 even the ones who have, it took too long and 1:46:02.240 --> 1:46:05.360 it was far too completed. We can, Yeah, we can. 1:46:05.960 --> 1:46:08.200 I talk again on that happy topic another day. But 1:46:08.880 --> 1:46:10.759 thank you so much for giving us some of your afternoon. 1:46:10.800 --> 1:46:10.960 Guys. 1:46:11.000 --> 1:46:11.880 We really appreciate it. 1:46:12.800 --> 1:46:15.120 Thank thank you guys for all you do and forgetting 1:46:15.120 --> 1:46:15.840 the word out. 1:46:31.240 --> 1:46:31.280 It. 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:36.240 It could happen here. It's it's the podcast that's happening here. 1:46:36.479 --> 1:46:39.120 That's not what we called it that, but you know, 1:46:39.280 --> 1:46:42.240 such as such as such such as such as the world. Uh. 1:46:42.360 --> 1:46:45.720 And today I'm going to be talking about one of 1:46:45.840 --> 1:46:48.160 one of one of our I don't want to say rare, 1:46:48.720 --> 1:46:50.360 but we're we're doing one of our how do we 1:46:50.400 --> 1:46:53.280 put the World back Together? Episodes And in order to 1:46:53.360 --> 1:46:55.360 do that, I'm going to be talking with Miro and Krant, 1:46:55.360 --> 1:46:58.040 who are two organizers for the Dual Power Gathering bit 1:46:58.120 --> 1:47:03.800 West that's happening in what like two months ish. Yeah, 1:47:04.280 --> 1:47:05.719 it's Cordon Miro. Welcome to the show. 1:47:07.120 --> 1:47:07.240 Hi. 1:47:07.400 --> 1:47:09.200 Thanks, it's great to be on. 1:47:10.280 --> 1:47:13.080 Yeah, it's great. It's great to have you too. Okay, 1:47:13.160 --> 1:47:15.960 So I guess I should I guess we should start 1:47:15.960 --> 1:47:17.800 with so this is this is well, I don't know 1:47:17.840 --> 1:47:21.000 if seconds the right term. The first of these happens 1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:25.640 last year in Indiana? Is it last year? 1:47:25.680 --> 1:47:25.840 Yeah? 1:47:25.840 --> 1:47:28.040 I was last year. I had to I had I 1:47:28.080 --> 1:47:29.639 had to make it. I had to do a quick 1:47:31.200 --> 1:47:33.800 checking my memory to make sure that twenty twenty two 1:47:34.040 --> 1:47:36.439 was in fact last year and we haven't somehow, so 1:47:36.479 --> 1:47:38.760 we kept in the twenty twenty four already. Oh boy, 1:47:39.520 --> 1:47:42.519 things are things that things are going great here. But yeah, 1:47:42.640 --> 1:47:44.640 I wanted to, I guess start with talking about what 1:47:44.760 --> 1:47:47.920 the dual power gathering is and yeah, like what what 1:47:48.320 --> 1:47:49.960 what happened at the first one and how did it go? 1:47:52.600 --> 1:47:57.360 Yeah, so dual power gathering. Uh, I guess maybe I 1:47:57.439 --> 1:47:59.280 think to start with is what is dual power? 1:47:59.560 --> 1:48:00.880 Yeah, we have talked about that in a bit. 1:48:01.479 --> 1:48:02.320 Yeah, it. 1:48:05.960 --> 1:48:09.920 Maybe the best way to put it is something that 1:48:10.240 --> 1:48:11.880 maybe a lot of people have heard before, which is 1:48:11.920 --> 1:48:13.920 building a new world in the shell of the old. 1:48:14.280 --> 1:48:23.160 So we live in a society, right, so there's a 1:48:23.200 --> 1:48:25.960 lot of institutions that we have to deal with, and 1:48:26.520 --> 1:48:30.120 for a lot of people it's essential to rely on 1:48:30.200 --> 1:48:33.760 these institutions because there's not other options. And as anarchists, 1:48:34.600 --> 1:48:37.599 it's kind of our goal to build those other options. 1:48:38.479 --> 1:48:42.160 And dual power is that building a second power in 1:48:44.160 --> 1:48:48.920 opposition to the state powers. So you know, like tech stuff, 1:48:49.439 --> 1:48:55.679 so internet, mesh, networks, just alternative infrastructures, alternative medical care. 1:48:56.880 --> 1:49:01.080 Though I'm sure that specific phrasing can and imply something 1:49:01.120 --> 1:49:07.040 else which I did not mean, but just working with 1:49:07.200 --> 1:49:11.600 communities to try to not rely on the state. And 1:49:11.880 --> 1:49:14.400 so dual power gathering is bringing together you know a 1:49:14.479 --> 1:49:18.200 bunch of people from orgs and independent activists and honestly 1:49:18.200 --> 1:49:19.880 people who just want to get involved and don't know 1:49:19.960 --> 1:49:26.000 a lot to help build those counter structures. And honestly, 1:49:26.120 --> 1:49:29.880 this cool Zone media brought a lot of people went 1:49:29.960 --> 1:49:34.560 to the podcast from last year, so it seems like 1:49:34.640 --> 1:49:36.800 your audience really really likes this stuff. 1:49:38.479 --> 1:49:40.120 I'm sad I wasn't able to go to last year's 1:49:40.160 --> 1:49:42.920 I was in the process of like setting up for 1:49:43.080 --> 1:49:44.560 and then I had a COVID scare. It had to 1:49:44.680 --> 1:49:46.960 like lock down for like an entire week in it, 1:49:47.680 --> 1:49:50.080 and it turned out that I didn't have it. But 1:49:52.080 --> 1:49:55.080 I mean, I'm very sad. I preferred that you didn't 1:49:55.120 --> 1:49:58.080 spread COVID. Yeah, I was like, so, okay, let's not 1:49:58.439 --> 1:50:03.040 like endanger people's lives. Seems better than in fact doing that. 1:50:03.680 --> 1:50:06.439 And on that note, since there's been questions both other events, 1:50:06.960 --> 1:50:11.719 we will be having mass requirements and at the event 1:50:11.800 --> 1:50:14.840 to make sure the immunal compromise people are not being excluded. 1:50:14.960 --> 1:50:16.080 I want to make that clear. 1:50:16.920 --> 1:50:18.439 Yeah, and this is this is like you know, so 1:50:18.520 --> 1:50:20.600 I like the last one from my understanding, you like, 1:50:20.880 --> 1:50:21.960 you know it was it was a bunch of it 1:50:22.000 --> 1:50:23.879 was bunch of people like camping in the dunes basically, 1:50:25.000 --> 1:50:26.920 And is this one also going to be sort of 1:50:27.320 --> 1:50:28.400 like mostly an outdoor thing. 1:50:29.200 --> 1:50:31.559 Yeah, so it's going to be We're not just going 1:50:31.640 --> 1:50:33.559 to say the location here, you can find that out 1:50:33.640 --> 1:50:41.640 through registering, but the location is just near Chicago and 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:45.160 it's similarly outside. It's a big open space, not a 1:50:45.200 --> 1:50:49.439 lot of trees, which is sad this year. But yeah, 1:50:49.600 --> 1:50:52.000 it'll be mostly camping, but there's cabins and people can 1:50:52.040 --> 1:50:53.559 stand hotels nearby also. 1:50:54.560 --> 1:50:56.640 Yeah, so I guess okay, we've thought, we've talked a 1:50:56.720 --> 1:50:59.920 bit about what dual power is and sort of building 1:51:00.040 --> 1:51:03.000 this kind of counterpower and building you know, like and 1:51:03.120 --> 1:51:04.519 like I I guess I just want to say a 1:51:04.560 --> 1:51:07.600 little bit like these are like dual power institutions are 1:51:07.720 --> 1:51:10.040 just a lot of the things that you know, just 1:51:10.400 --> 1:51:13.120 we talk about building or like people you know or 1:51:13.280 --> 1:51:14.920 we've been involved in building and there's these are these 1:51:15.000 --> 1:51:17.960 these can be things like tennis unions like different like 1:51:18.040 --> 1:51:21.480 different well different like regular unions like caucuses and unions, 1:51:21.840 --> 1:51:25.040 uh like mutual aid networks like worker centers, and so 1:51:25.160 --> 1:51:26.519 there's there's you know, there's all sorts of things that 1:51:26.600 --> 1:51:29.920 can be involved in this. But so now now now 1:51:30.000 --> 1:51:33.080 having gotten we've gotten through dual power, we've sort of 1:51:33.160 --> 1:51:37.160 gotten through gathering, but we should should Yeah, I want 1:51:37.160 --> 1:51:39.040 to ask a bit more about like what what Okay, 1:51:39.080 --> 1:51:41.400 what what happens at the thing when you go to it? 1:51:42.640 --> 1:51:42.840 Yeah. 1:51:43.320 --> 1:51:48.720 So it's built on the unconference model of doing things, 1:51:48.760 --> 1:51:52.120 which in essence is able to kind of counteract the 1:51:52.160 --> 1:51:54.880 idea that we need to have a sort of structured 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:58.200 event that's you know, you do this at this point, 1:51:58.280 --> 1:51:59.840 you do this at this point, you do this at 1:51:59.880 --> 1:52:05.759 the point. Instead, is meant to be built more towards 1:52:05.800 --> 1:52:12.840 libertarian socialist principles, and it is where people are able 1:52:12.880 --> 1:52:16.559 to kind of build their own agenda from the start 1:52:16.800 --> 1:52:19.320 of the event and kind of structure their day how 1:52:19.400 --> 1:52:23.479 they want to. So you can talk to these people 1:52:23.560 --> 1:52:28.160 to go to a skill sharing event on stop the 1:52:28.200 --> 1:52:30.439 Bleed training, you can talk to these people to go 1:52:30.560 --> 1:52:37.080 to a skill share event on how to facilitate meetings. 1:52:37.160 --> 1:52:39.920 You can talk to these folk to learn a bit 1:52:39.960 --> 1:52:43.200 about anarchist history. You know, just all these different things 1:52:43.240 --> 1:52:47.200 that can be formatted however that you may so choose, 1:52:47.479 --> 1:52:51.040 and that are all kind of happening at the discretion 1:52:51.160 --> 1:52:56.040 of people who are involved. So it's very much so 1:52:56.439 --> 1:52:59.720 just up to you to build your own day, and 1:53:00.000 --> 1:53:01.479 of course you can also talk to other people there 1:53:01.479 --> 1:53:04.639 if you need some help. Plenty of the organizers involved 1:53:04.640 --> 1:53:08.080 are more than willing to help out and you know, 1:53:08.680 --> 1:53:12.439 lend people a hand in figuring out where everything is 1:53:12.560 --> 1:53:14.519 and what they might want to do and what other 1:53:14.560 --> 1:53:16.960 people are doing start their day around. But at the core, 1:53:17.240 --> 1:53:22.560 you know, it's built around individual choice, autonomy and just 1:53:22.720 --> 1:53:26.200 a non hierarchical method of going about it. 1:53:26.920 --> 1:53:28.639 So I can talk a little bit more about how 1:53:28.760 --> 1:53:34.240 that looked practically from last year. So the first night 1:53:34.360 --> 1:53:36.160 I wasn't there, so I can't talk much about that, 1:53:36.320 --> 1:53:39.360 but it was just mostly getting to know everybody. People 1:53:39.400 --> 1:53:45.320 were coming and throughout the night because work and all 1:53:45.400 --> 1:53:49.720 that on a Friday. But then that Saturday, after breakfast, 1:53:50.000 --> 1:53:51.920 which I don't even remember, it was like oat meal 1:53:52.040 --> 1:53:55.439 or something, we got together in this assembly area and 1:53:55.840 --> 1:54:00.200 brought out whiteboards and marked out days and people just 1:54:00.280 --> 1:54:02.200 stuck up what they wanted to talk about in a 1:54:02.280 --> 1:54:07.960 session on the board in a time slot, and then 1:54:08.880 --> 1:54:12.080 we got everyone to figure out, you know, which ones 1:54:12.120 --> 1:54:14.080 of these can be condensed. You know, do two people 1:54:14.280 --> 1:54:17.200 have similar ideas, can they talk about how they might 1:54:17.280 --> 1:54:22.800 want to have a session together, And then people just 1:54:23.080 --> 1:54:25.120 chose which sessions to go to. We kept the whiteboards 1:54:25.200 --> 1:54:27.120 up so people could see what was going on and where, 1:54:28.080 --> 1:54:31.799 and that worked out pretty well. I think the biggest 1:54:31.880 --> 1:54:34.600 concern from that was people wanted to go to everything. 1:54:35.960 --> 1:54:37.640 We simply did not have time, and they were like, 1:54:37.680 --> 1:54:39.360 can we make this a week And I think that's 1:54:39.400 --> 1:54:44.520 pushing it money wise. It's expensive enough to rent a 1:54:44.560 --> 1:54:47.000 campsite for a weekend, but it has. 1:54:46.960 --> 1:54:48.760 Like just a bunch of land they have sitting around 1:54:48.800 --> 1:54:49.920 they want to give to us for this. 1:54:51.840 --> 1:54:54.080 If you can, if you can make whatever ranch or 1:54:54.200 --> 1:54:58.400 farm you have like accessible for people, then yes, please 1:54:58.480 --> 1:55:01.040 reach out future gatherings. 1:55:02.000 --> 1:55:03.160 But the. 1:55:04.800 --> 1:55:10.960 Most important part I think was that the gathering model 1:55:11.080 --> 1:55:16.800 allowed all different groups there who had similar interests. For example, 1:55:17.280 --> 1:55:22.240 there was a POC caucus to self organize. There's also 1:55:22.360 --> 1:55:25.480 like a sex workers group. They were able to come 1:55:25.520 --> 1:55:28.000 together on their own figure out what's going on. And 1:55:28.360 --> 1:55:32.200 it wasn't based on what organizers thought was important. It 1:55:32.320 --> 1:55:36.400 was based on what participants thought was important. And I 1:55:36.480 --> 1:55:38.800 think that also facilitated a lot of networking. You were 1:55:38.840 --> 1:55:45.520 able to see, hey, there's a DIY medicine circle going 1:55:45.560 --> 1:55:47.080 on in this camp site. Well I'm going to go 1:55:47.160 --> 1:55:48.720 maybe stop by. I might not say the whole time, 1:55:48.720 --> 1:55:50.560 but I'm gonna check it out. See if I'm interested, 1:55:50.920 --> 1:55:55.240 see if I like I like the people there, And 1:55:56.600 --> 1:56:02.320 it allowed for especially newer folks to interact with veterans 1:56:02.680 --> 1:56:08.120 veteran activists and just engage with stuff they might have 1:56:08.240 --> 1:56:13.680 only felt uh interested in slightly and actually get involved 1:56:14.000 --> 1:56:19.120 and contribute. So yeah, that that's how it practically went 1:56:19.320 --> 1:56:22.960 for the unconference, And we didn't hear that many complaints 1:56:22.960 --> 1:56:27.360 about it, except that it maybe sometimes sessions were not 1:56:27.520 --> 1:56:29.800 time like the time was too short or too long, 1:56:30.000 --> 1:56:34.240 or that it wasn't like a week or two. 1:56:38.480 --> 1:56:40.160 Yeah, I mean, you know, and then that that's stuff 1:56:40.240 --> 1:56:43.920 that likes, especially the first time you're running an event 1:56:44.240 --> 1:56:47.000 like stuff, Stuff like that happens, and you know, we 1:56:47.080 --> 1:56:53.640 can okay, this is I have not an enormous amount 1:56:53.640 --> 1:56:55.960 of experience running like panels and stuff, but like I've 1:56:56.000 --> 1:57:00.160 done it, and it's like god, getting the timing rights 1:57:00.200 --> 1:57:03.040 really hard and very annoying, but it's you know, this, 1:57:03.280 --> 1:57:06.240 this is a this is a thing that subsequent events 1:57:06.320 --> 1:57:08.520 will can and will sort of iterate on and get 1:57:08.560 --> 1:57:11.680 better at because you know, I guess what what what 1:57:11.840 --> 1:57:13.240 what what of One of the things that we are 1:57:13.320 --> 1:57:15.400 in fact learning at these is how to do these 1:57:15.520 --> 1:57:19.040 things that you know, I guess in this way hasn't 1:57:19.080 --> 1:57:19.680 been done before. 1:57:20.440 --> 1:57:23.000 Yeah, and it's not i mean not technically not been 1:57:23.040 --> 1:57:25.440 done before, but not done it this way. Yeah, right, 1:57:25.800 --> 1:57:29.520 like like there's crime, think convergences or like the bashback. 1:57:29.680 --> 1:57:33.480 But yeah, yeah, well I think it's an interesting thing 1:57:34.320 --> 1:57:36.840 too on a sort of like I don't know, I 1:57:37.240 --> 1:57:38.720 think I think there's a way in which this is 1:57:39.000 --> 1:57:40.800 in some sense kind of getting back to like older 1:57:41.520 --> 1:57:45.880 like models of anarchists organizing that kind of like I'm 1:57:45.880 --> 1:57:48.760 not gonna say they disappeared, but there's been sort of 1:57:48.880 --> 1:57:52.160 less of them due to like, you know, we just 1:57:52.200 --> 1:57:54.520 sort of like political shifts and like shifts the white 1:57:54.520 --> 1:57:57.080 people organized and like just what kinds of stuff were 1:57:57.120 --> 1:58:01.000 happening at any given time, and so you know, and 1:58:01.040 --> 1:58:02.800 I think that the consequence of this is a lot 1:58:02.800 --> 1:58:05.400 of people sort of relearning or you know, relearning and 1:58:05.520 --> 1:58:12.280 inventing things that like had been known. But you know, ever, 1:58:12.400 --> 1:58:15.040 everyone's working through it together, and you know, it turns 1:58:15.080 --> 1:58:18.320 out we're like we're pretty good at building things. 1:58:19.200 --> 1:58:19.400 Yeah. 1:58:20.920 --> 1:58:23.960 Yeah. Like one thing that I think is really cool 1:58:24.280 --> 1:58:28.960 about DPG that kind of shines through is seeing how 1:58:30.040 --> 1:58:33.440 something like building an event like this, Like when I 1:58:33.600 --> 1:58:36.600 first got involved, you know, I pictured building an event 1:58:36.720 --> 1:58:38.000 like this is a huge ordeal. 1:58:38.360 --> 1:58:39.480 You know it was. 1:58:41.080 --> 1:58:43.720 You needed all these big connections, You needed to know 1:58:43.800 --> 1:58:45.360 a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy, 1:58:45.600 --> 1:58:51.240 and needed so many different resources at your disposal. It 1:58:51.400 --> 1:58:54.120 never really hit me that this could be something that 1:58:54.360 --> 1:58:57.520 just regular people could just up and decide to do. 1:58:58.000 --> 1:58:59.240 It's not to say it doesn't take a lot of 1:58:59.280 --> 1:59:02.800 effort and work. It does, but it's still ultimately something 1:59:02.880 --> 1:59:06.040 that is in the power of people to do if 1:59:06.080 --> 1:59:09.480 they really set themselves onto it and are able to 1:59:10.240 --> 1:59:15.120 find enough helping hands, both physically and in terms of 1:59:15.160 --> 1:59:18.440 the actual event. So it's like it's really cool to 1:59:18.520 --> 1:59:23.160 see just everyone coming together in the organizing process and 1:59:23.240 --> 1:59:26.600 it just being a very organic, natural thing. It's like, 1:59:27.680 --> 1:59:30.840 I don't know, you see it a lot with like 1:59:31.000 --> 1:59:36.720 other specific events I've done food not bomb stuff, and 1:59:36.760 --> 1:59:40.600 I've seen it there too, but like it's different, but 1:59:40.720 --> 1:59:44.680 it's something that you typically for see, at least I 1:59:44.800 --> 1:59:48.560 did for sea as like, oh, you know, building a 1:59:48.680 --> 1:59:53.200 whole weekend long event, you know you need, yeah to 1:59:53.240 --> 1:59:55.520 have corporate big shots doing that, you know, how can 1:59:55.560 --> 1:59:56.920 you expect the little guys to do that? 2:00:00.160 --> 2:00:03.640 And Yeah, it's also cool to see people just jump 2:00:03.720 --> 2:00:06.360 in and help who might not even have other organizing 2:00:06.400 --> 2:00:11.200 experience that this last year too, near the end of 2:00:11.400 --> 2:00:13.600 the planning for the gathering, there were so many people 2:00:13.680 --> 2:00:18.320 joining little circles on planning food and transportation logistics and 2:00:18.400 --> 2:00:24.960 how can I contribute? And I think the resounding result 2:00:25.680 --> 2:00:28.360 was people finding political hope. That was a term I 2:00:28.440 --> 2:00:32.480 heard a lot from from individuals who both went and 2:00:32.600 --> 2:00:35.360 helped organize the last one. And we're hoping to create 2:00:35.440 --> 2:00:37.480 a similar, similar thing this time. 2:00:37.960 --> 2:00:41.320 Yeah, and that's something that like I think I think 2:00:41.360 --> 2:00:43.920 everyone can use a bit more of right now. In 2:00:44.000 --> 2:00:46.360 a sort of in a very sort of depressing and bleak, 2:00:47.560 --> 2:00:49.640 like there's there's a lot of bad there's a lot 2:00:49.640 --> 2:00:53.000 of bad stuff happening and the ability to generate hope, 2:00:53.040 --> 2:00:54.120 and I you know, you could even think of it 2:00:54.160 --> 2:00:56.120 as sort of in just in terms of like morale, right, 2:00:56.320 --> 2:01:00.440 Like it's it's really really, really hard to actually achieve 2:01:00.520 --> 2:01:03.320 or change anything if everyone has just sort of given 2:01:03.400 --> 2:01:06.200 up already, and you know, like being around other people 2:01:06.320 --> 2:01:08.720 and being like planning events with people and doing stuff 2:01:08.760 --> 2:01:12.520 with people like is a very very good way to 2:01:12.960 --> 2:01:14.840 you know, just sort of break the kind of like 2:01:15.760 --> 2:01:21.600 existential dread and like depression of like living and you know, 2:01:21.720 --> 2:01:24.480 sort of hopelessness of like living in in in this 2:01:25.120 --> 2:01:28.160 like disaster that we've all been thrown into. 2:01:29.520 --> 2:01:35.360 Yeah. Something that somebody had mentioned at the last gathering 2:01:35.400 --> 2:01:40.040 that really stuck with me was that because of the 2:01:40.280 --> 2:01:46.000 uprising and COVID, most leptist organizing was formed through trauma bonding. Yeah, 2:01:46.080 --> 2:01:49.240 and it was really nice to form relationships outside of 2:01:49.320 --> 2:01:56.520 traumatic incidents and they felt longer lasting and much safer 2:01:57.040 --> 2:01:59.920 than relationships built during crisis. 2:02:00.040 --> 2:02:03.280 Yeah. And I think, you know, I mean, I think, 2:02:03.520 --> 2:02:05.360 like I think that's just sort of important along those 2:02:05.440 --> 2:02:10.040 lines to remember is that like like building relationships, there's 2:02:10.080 --> 2:02:12.520 a decent extent to which that's just all organizing is. 2:02:13.520 --> 2:02:13.720 Yeah. 2:02:14.120 --> 2:02:15.960 Yeah, I mean it's it's not all organizing is, but 2:02:16.000 --> 2:02:17.760 it's it's a really important part of it. And the 2:02:17.960 --> 2:02:20.360 way that people are able to do this, especially in 2:02:20.480 --> 2:02:23.360 the wake of a bunch of like, you know, i mean, 2:02:23.440 --> 2:02:25.960 really sort of traumatic and horrible experiences people went through, 2:02:26.120 --> 2:02:29.440 Like yeah, glad we have a better way to do this. 2:02:31.000 --> 2:02:36.400 Yeah, Like, stuff like this is essentially well of some 2:02:36.480 --> 2:02:38.560 of the only things that give me a sense of 2:02:38.600 --> 2:02:42.280 optimism for the future, because those who know me know 2:02:42.440 --> 2:02:47.920 I tend to be a very pessimistic person. I don't 2:02:47.920 --> 2:02:53.080 look at current events, to put it concisely, and say, oh, wow, 2:02:53.320 --> 2:02:55.240 things are going pretty topsy turvy out there. 2:02:55.520 --> 2:02:57.160 I'm so. 2:02:57.920 --> 2:03:00.720 But when we have stuff like this going on that's 2:03:02.080 --> 2:03:07.200 just built at the level of, hey, where people trying 2:03:07.320 --> 2:03:14.120 to make things better and prevent the chaos from the 2:03:14.200 --> 2:03:19.040 outside world and the world around us from just consuming everything, 2:03:19.280 --> 2:03:23.400 It's like it gives a nice sense of community and 2:03:23.440 --> 2:03:25.080 a nice sense of hey, we're not alone in this, 2:03:25.360 --> 2:03:29.360 and that maybe tomorrow things will be a little bit 2:03:29.400 --> 2:03:30.360 better than they were today. 2:03:31.040 --> 2:03:35.640 Yeah, it's especially important in my opinion. I the first 2:03:35.680 --> 2:03:38.800 gathering I was not living in a city as I 2:03:38.880 --> 2:03:41.640 do now. I was livingd in not a city that 2:03:43.040 --> 2:03:44.680 people in big cities would call a city. 2:03:45.680 --> 2:03:48.200 I was in Nebraska, and I was gonna make a 2:03:48.320 --> 2:03:58.280 joke about Davenport or something, and that's kind of favorite Daport. Yeah. 2:03:58.400 --> 2:04:03.240 So being able to meet other rural organizers in various places, 2:04:03.360 --> 2:04:07.120 especially honestly the Appalachia region, which I did not realize 2:04:07.720 --> 2:04:13.800 was so related in their struggles, was important because no 2:04:13.920 --> 2:04:17.520 matter how much I wanted to network, it wasn't really 2:04:17.560 --> 2:04:20.800 that opportunity as much as there is in cities. And 2:04:20.920 --> 2:04:25.120 in cities there's a doesn't mean you're necessarily meeting more 2:04:25.200 --> 2:04:28.280 people or people that you necessarily would like to organize with. 2:04:30.080 --> 2:04:34.440 There's just there's often more need and not necessarily more anarchists. 2:04:35.080 --> 2:04:38.480 Yeah. Yeah, And I mean, you know, it's something that 2:04:38.480 --> 2:04:42.680 we've talked about before, but we've basically built it. Well okay, 2:04:42.720 --> 2:04:45.360 well I say we didn't really build this, but the 2:04:45.360 --> 2:04:47.960 whole story we lived in the social system that we 2:04:48.080 --> 2:04:50.800 live in has been built sort of very specifically and 2:04:50.920 --> 2:04:54.440 very deliberately to isolate people. And yeah, and you know, 2:04:55.440 --> 2:04:58.040 the sort of functions in different ways depending on sort 2:04:58.040 --> 2:05:03.520 of geography and regional stuff. But yeah, like I think 2:05:03.560 --> 2:05:05.560 I think this is you know, an important tool to 2:05:05.600 --> 2:05:08.680 sort of break that and to bring people together and 2:05:08.760 --> 2:05:12.280 to bring like I don't know, like I think I 2:05:12.320 --> 2:05:14.080 think like another part of this we haven't talked about 2:05:14.080 --> 2:05:17.520 as much as like just like really incredible things happen 2:05:17.600 --> 2:05:22.160 when you bring people together from struggles that like turn 2:05:22.240 --> 2:05:27.160 out to be very similar, but like aren't like aren't 2:05:28.000 --> 2:05:30.520 usually involved with each other, Like aren't you sort of 2:05:30.600 --> 2:05:34.440 like not like I haven't been able to sort of 2:05:34.520 --> 2:05:37.120 like link up before. You get very sort of like 2:05:38.040 --> 2:05:39.720 I don't know, you get a lot of really interesting 2:05:40.720 --> 2:05:43.200 sort of like ideas and strategic stuff from it. 2:05:46.120 --> 2:05:46.600 Yeah, Like. 2:05:48.080 --> 2:05:54.320 One thing that I've noticed, especially and because I've done 2:05:54.440 --> 2:06:00.360 a lot of small town rule organizing, is that you 2:06:00.440 --> 2:06:05.880 can kind of easily develop like very isolated communities and 2:06:06.120 --> 2:06:13.600 isolated radical cultures and like specific regions. And it's not 2:06:13.760 --> 2:06:16.600 a great pitfall to fall into because you miss out 2:06:16.680 --> 2:06:18.840 on law of developments that might happen else sort of 2:06:19.000 --> 2:06:21.120 nice out a lot of other things that might happening 2:06:22.200 --> 2:06:26.640 in other regions, and even beyond just regions, going into 2:06:27.000 --> 2:06:36.640 specific intersectional issues like different different organizers who might focus 2:06:36.640 --> 2:06:43.640 specifically on racism versus corphobia, versus ableism. There's all things 2:06:43.680 --> 2:06:47.760 to learn from each other. Yeah, there's all interconnectedness, and 2:06:47.800 --> 2:06:51.880 when you tie that into interconnectedness of different regions, there's 2:06:52.000 --> 2:06:53.720 just a big need for things to be kind of 2:06:53.840 --> 2:06:57.720 like a large web of connectivity instead of just you know, 2:06:58.560 --> 2:07:04.760 oh things are kept separate and now we're stuck developing 2:07:04.800 --> 2:07:05.280 on a road. 2:07:05.520 --> 2:07:09.360 And that's that's another fun Yeah, and you know what, 2:07:09.680 --> 2:07:13.000 I guess circling the sort of back around to the 2:07:13.000 --> 2:07:16.879 specific event. The thing that y'all are doing to combat 2:07:16.960 --> 2:07:20.320 this is the is the Dual Power Gathering Midwest. So 2:07:20.400 --> 2:07:23.480 I wanted to talk a little bit about like, well, okay, 2:07:23.920 --> 2:07:26.520 when is this happening and also what are the plans 2:07:26.560 --> 2:07:28.920 so far for what it's going to look like and 2:07:29.800 --> 2:07:31.120 what people are going to be doing. 2:07:32.200 --> 2:07:37.720 So it's August seventeenth through twentieth, and this year is 2:07:37.760 --> 2:07:42.400 going to be pretty similar to last year. And you 2:07:42.520 --> 2:07:46.480 can also look at Dual Power West, which had their 2:07:46.520 --> 2:07:49.960 gathering earlier this summer. There's a good if you go 2:07:50.040 --> 2:07:54.440 to Sabo Media I think it's Sabomedia dot no blogs 2:07:55.480 --> 2:07:59.560 dot org or whatever. The no blogs addresses. You can 2:07:59.600 --> 2:08:03.080 look it up. They did a good report back on 2:08:03.320 --> 2:08:07.840 how that went, and we'll also have a documentary if 2:08:07.880 --> 2:08:08.680 people want to learn more. 2:08:08.840 --> 2:08:11.640 Sorry, that's sidetracked, but we'll put links to that in 2:08:11.640 --> 2:08:12.080 the description. 2:08:13.040 --> 2:08:15.400 So right now we're soliciting a lot of people to 2:08:15.480 --> 2:08:17.640 come and bring what they have to offer to the table. 2:08:18.120 --> 2:08:19.880 We are. 2:08:21.800 --> 2:08:25.720 In the end stages of setting everything up and getting 2:08:25.720 --> 2:08:29.960 everything connected, and part of that is we want people 2:08:30.200 --> 2:08:33.320 to bring over what they want to share, you know, skills, 2:08:33.360 --> 2:08:37.720 they want to share cool things they've learned about leftist history, 2:08:38.520 --> 2:08:41.480 things that are important to know for modern day society, 2:08:42.560 --> 2:08:47.240 intersectional issues, discussions, basically anything that people could think of 2:08:47.320 --> 2:08:51.360 that might be worthwhile. Come on over, bring it in. 2:08:51.560 --> 2:08:53.760 We'd love to talk to people and hear more about it. 2:08:54.920 --> 2:08:58.800 So in terms of specific so we might have planned 2:09:00.080 --> 2:09:02.960 at is where we're currently at. We're aiming for it 2:09:03.080 --> 2:09:07.600 to be like last year in that it's a skill 2:09:07.680 --> 2:09:10.600 share event and a discussion. It's, like I said, of 2:09:10.640 --> 2:09:17.480 discussions and just a way for people to share what 2:09:17.560 --> 2:09:20.760 they know with each other. And a few of us 2:09:20.880 --> 2:09:23.120 currently involved, you know, we all have our own ideas. 2:09:23.240 --> 2:09:28.880 I personally want to talk about unions and kind of 2:09:29.280 --> 2:09:35.560 be like, hey, unionize your workplace, but that's more so 2:09:35.800 --> 2:09:38.280 just me, and that it could be up to anyone, 2:09:38.600 --> 2:09:40.280 but what they want to do, kind of building off 2:09:40.520 --> 2:09:45.520 the Young conference model. It's if people want it, and 2:09:46.200 --> 2:09:49.320 you know, it's not like how to be a fascist 2:09:49.440 --> 2:09:51.680 one on one, then it's welcome. 2:09:52.280 --> 2:09:55.440 Some things we predict that will happen at the gathering 2:09:55.840 --> 2:09:59.320 will probably be circles on trans healthcare and abortion care 2:09:59.720 --> 2:10:02.520 give in recent events, well it doesn't even it's not 2:10:02.600 --> 2:10:09.760 really recent feeling anymore. But that plus, I think much 2:10:09.840 --> 2:10:16.760 more community defense is coming up because of those and 2:10:17.320 --> 2:10:22.240 I think as always there's all the DIY folks who 2:10:22.320 --> 2:10:26.480 come in last year pretty cool and I might overemphasize 2:10:26.520 --> 2:10:29.720 how much that's a part because I'm also one of 2:10:29.760 --> 2:10:33.320 those DIY people. It's a problem and an addiction at 2:10:33.360 --> 2:10:38.520 this point, but like you know, people who wanted to 2:10:38.640 --> 2:10:43.640 just build their own car, it's cool stuff. Yeah. The 2:10:44.640 --> 2:10:50.720 the random expertise of people coming was wonderful, and that 2:10:50.840 --> 2:10:54.040 all came together in ways I don't think anyone could 2:10:54.040 --> 2:10:58.760 have predicted, like literally the showing how to use batteries 2:10:58.920 --> 2:11:03.560 and how to like in a correct way chaining them education. 2:11:03.760 --> 2:11:08.080 I have an engineering degree. A lot of this stuff 2:11:08.200 --> 2:11:09.880 was so new to me in a very good way, 2:11:12.120 --> 2:11:18.440 and I hope that similar people come back. We can 2:11:18.520 --> 2:11:24.800 never predict. Leftists are wild. You never know if they're 2:11:24.840 --> 2:11:27.160 going to take to something. If we don't even know 2:11:27.200 --> 2:11:30.400 if certain people liked it because they just dropped off 2:11:30.440 --> 2:11:34.840 the map because they were, you know, just walking to 2:11:35.040 --> 2:11:43.640 Denver or something after the gathering. But I think the 2:11:43.760 --> 2:11:53.240 gathering is our focus has been on getting people to network, 2:11:54.320 --> 2:11:58.760 and so I think what we've planned besides food, which 2:12:01.200 --> 2:12:03.720 I think we can talk about in a second, is 2:12:05.480 --> 2:12:09.200 just making sure people come away with the relationships we've 2:12:09.240 --> 2:12:13.400 talked so much about already, and trying to give people 2:12:13.480 --> 2:12:18.360 the opportunities explicitly to socialize, because we also know that 2:12:19.440 --> 2:12:26.640 people tend to be not veries friendly when approached in 2:12:26.800 --> 2:12:30.320 maybe every day organizing, even though you say they should be. Maybe, 2:12:30.480 --> 2:12:35.080 but life stressful, and I don't blame people, So we're 2:12:35.120 --> 2:12:39.760 trying to make it a very friendly environment for talking 2:12:39.880 --> 2:12:43.960 to other people and trying to maybe make that the 2:12:44.080 --> 2:12:47.080 only other structured thing in the day besides meals. 2:12:49.040 --> 2:12:50.720 Yeah, well, I guess I should also say that, like, 2:12:51.240 --> 2:12:53.320 if you can do something cool and you want to 2:12:53.400 --> 2:12:56.280 go show people that, I mean something cool. You should 2:12:56.320 --> 2:12:58.280 in fact do this because it rips. 2:13:00.200 --> 2:13:09.320 Please, yes, just for me, like, please come and show 2:13:09.440 --> 2:13:13.520 us some cool stuff, like there is so much opportunity 2:13:13.600 --> 2:13:14.560 for amazing things. 2:13:15.800 --> 2:13:18.400 Yeah, and I guess you know, speaking of amazing things, Yeah, 2:13:18.400 --> 2:13:21.320 we should talk about food a little bit because you know, 2:13:21.840 --> 2:13:24.480 food important part of all human societies. 2:13:27.000 --> 2:13:32.560 So for food, we're aiming for it to be petered. 2:13:32.680 --> 2:13:41.440 Vegan food from local restaurants along with various cooked meals 2:13:41.520 --> 2:13:45.240 as well is what we're kind of shooting for. So 2:13:46.760 --> 2:13:51.200 we're going to be covering three meals a day breakfast, lunch, 2:13:51.240 --> 2:13:56.520 and dinner, and aiming to have enough to cover everyone 2:13:56.760 --> 2:13:59.480 for the three days of the gathering. 2:14:00.360 --> 2:14:04.400 Yeah, and if food we have doesn't work, we also 2:14:04.440 --> 2:14:07.000 have plans to make sure that we can accommodate people. 2:14:07.280 --> 2:14:10.040 This is not far from other It's not like out 2:14:10.080 --> 2:14:12.640 in the middle of nowhere. We'll be able to access 2:14:13.400 --> 2:14:19.360 various stores and stuff. A lot of the gatherings would 2:14:20.080 --> 2:14:24.800 rely on the typical way of just having I don't know, 2:14:25.440 --> 2:14:28.560 some gatherings just have the food happen. They just say, well, 2:14:29.000 --> 2:14:33.360 foods on the group and that's fun and all, but 2:14:33.560 --> 2:14:35.600 we also want to ensure. 2:14:35.240 --> 2:14:38.960 That there is food and that there's like vegan for people, 2:14:38.960 --> 2:14:43.440 which is absolutely yeah, and stuff like that. Do you 2:14:43.520 --> 2:14:45.240 do you have anything else that you want to talk 2:14:45.240 --> 2:14:47.560 about about the event before we close out. 2:14:48.760 --> 2:14:48.960 Yeah. 2:14:49.080 --> 2:14:52.360 I'll just say too that we are aiming for this 2:14:52.480 --> 2:14:56.400 event to be accessible to folk with disabilities, folks with children, 2:14:58.920 --> 2:15:01.680 essentially to anyone and everyone would be interested if we 2:15:01.680 --> 2:15:05.080 want to be accessible. On our website we talk a 2:15:05.120 --> 2:15:08.240 bit more in detail about the specific ways in which 2:15:08.320 --> 2:15:13.800 the site itself is divisibility accessible, and we also invite 2:15:13.880 --> 2:15:18.720 folk to if there's any suggestions, concerns, anything of the 2:15:18.840 --> 2:15:21.400 sort for how we can make this more accessible for people, 2:15:21.520 --> 2:15:24.560 more welcoming, more open. We invite people to come and 2:15:24.600 --> 2:15:29.600 let us know. We're still learning and still trying to 2:15:29.680 --> 2:15:34.240 do this better. So anything we can improve upon, please 2:15:34.320 --> 2:15:37.200 let us know, because we want to do right by folk. 2:15:38.000 --> 2:15:40.920 And on the note of families and kids, youth are 2:15:41.000 --> 2:15:46.600 absolutely welcome. We have some families in well, some parents 2:15:46.640 --> 2:15:51.640 specifically in the organizing right now. We hope we want 2:15:51.720 --> 2:15:53.960 kids to be able to be as involved as they 2:15:54.000 --> 2:15:58.840 want to be. Last year, I think that it ended 2:15:58.920 --> 2:16:00.840 up working out with the kids that were there, and 2:16:00.960 --> 2:16:03.760 they're amazing and you can see that in the documentary too, 2:16:05.440 --> 2:16:09.400 but we want to make sure that's something we actually 2:16:09.480 --> 2:16:12.600 plan for this time, to make sure that they don't 2:16:12.720 --> 2:16:15.760 feel excluded and also that parents are able to fully participate. 2:16:17.280 --> 2:16:19.600 And yet you can see more on our website which 2:16:19.680 --> 2:16:21.600 is Dpgmidwest dot org. 2:16:23.320 --> 2:16:25.400 Yeah, well, we'll have links to that in the description too. 2:16:26.400 --> 2:16:28.840 Yeah, and on there you'll see linked is our open 2:16:28.920 --> 2:16:31.760 collective where if you go there you can There's a 2:16:31.840 --> 2:16:35.760 variety of options on there which might be overwhelming. There's 2:16:35.800 --> 2:16:38.840 a donation option if you can't come but would like 2:16:38.920 --> 2:16:42.640 to donate, and then there's tickets they don't you can 2:16:43.200 --> 2:16:47.440 use pseudonyms. It's pretty anonymous. It's fine and you don't 2:16:47.520 --> 2:16:52.840 have to pay necessarily, but there's a suggested donation listed 2:16:52.920 --> 2:16:54.960 on there so that we are able to afford the 2:16:55.000 --> 2:17:01.560 campsite and people don't have to pay too much upfront. Two. Uh, 2:17:02.400 --> 2:17:05.120 by the by the campsite, I guess rent the campsite 2:17:05.840 --> 2:17:09.320 for the days and get food and stuff, and then 2:17:09.320 --> 2:17:13.720 there's options to get reserve a spot in a cabin 2:17:14.240 --> 2:17:16.960 if there's still spots left. We don't need to have 2:17:17.040 --> 2:17:19.039 a reservation, but we're trying to make sure that it's 2:17:19.760 --> 2:17:24.400 that we're prioritizing people with those access needs. And of 2:17:24.520 --> 2:17:27.720 course our emails also listed on both the Open Collective 2:17:28.000 --> 2:17:30.960 and the website, so that'll probably be the main source 2:17:32.320 --> 2:17:38.200 for info. We also have a collective account. 2:17:37.879 --> 2:17:44.200 Despite the problems. Right now, learn offseck do that people, 2:17:44.959 --> 2:17:47.800 It's good, you will go far. 2:17:51.760 --> 2:17:57.040 Yeah. God, I'm thinking about making a tumbler because what's happening. 2:17:58.240 --> 2:18:04.400 But the Yeah, it's also at DPG Midwest at collect 2:18:04.760 --> 2:18:05.959 the Social. 2:18:06.879 --> 2:18:09.840 Yeah, and once again, this is running from August seventeenth 2:18:09.840 --> 2:18:12.800 to the twentieth, and yeah it sounds interesting. Go sign 2:18:12.879 --> 2:18:17.720 up and yeah, yeah, thank you to so much for 2:18:17.840 --> 2:18:22.840 joining us. Why am I saying us? Sorry, I just 2:18:22.959 --> 2:18:25.119 I just reflectively do the US. And then I'm like, wait, 2:18:25.200 --> 2:18:28.680 hold on, hold on, there's the Royal WE and the 2:18:28.760 --> 2:18:35.920 Anarchist US. Yeah, and I'm I'm I'm excited. I don't know. 2:18:36.240 --> 2:18:38.440 I may be there, I may not be. It depends 2:18:38.560 --> 2:18:40.680 on a bunch of scheduling stuff that I have very 2:18:40.680 --> 2:18:46.480 little control over. But yeah, other people should go. It's 2:18:46.560 --> 2:18:48.760 going to be a good event. And yeah, thank you 2:18:48.800 --> 2:18:53.600 to again, thank you, thank you. Yeah, and this has 2:18:53.640 --> 2:18:56.360 been it can happen here. You can find us in 2:18:56.920 --> 2:18:59.640 the usual places if they still exist by the time 2:18:59.680 --> 2:19:02.520 that's eppen so it comes out. Oh yeah, we now 2:19:02.600 --> 2:19:04.760 have the cooler Zone media thing. If you don't want 2:19:04.800 --> 2:19:08.160 to listen to the Reagan ads or like, I don't know, 2:19:08.240 --> 2:19:11.280 a bunch of other ads for podcasts or whatever weird 2:19:11.360 --> 2:19:13.600 things playing right now. I think I've been getting casino 2:19:13.720 --> 2:19:17.440 ads lately, which is kind of interesting. But if you 2:19:17.440 --> 2:19:20.039 don't listen to that, we have a subscription service from 2:19:20.040 --> 2:19:23.440 Apple that you can buy, and then you don't want 2:19:23.440 --> 2:19:26.320 to have ads for all of our shows. We're working. 2:19:26.360 --> 2:19:29.600 We're still working on the Android one that hopefully will 2:19:29.600 --> 2:19:33.959 be happening soon. But that's anoverything that's we're doing. We're 2:19:34.000 --> 2:19:37.440 doing our best. We're not we unfortunately are not Apple, 2:19:38.640 --> 2:19:40.720 Like we don't own all of the stuff, so we 2:19:40.879 --> 2:19:42.560 have to do a bunch of stuff to work through it. 2:19:42.760 --> 2:19:46.720 But yeah, go go out into the world, build dual 2:19:46.800 --> 2:19:49.640 power and have a good time while you do it. 2:20:06.080 --> 2:20:09.480 Hello, and welcome to another episode of It Could Happen 2:20:09.560 --> 2:20:16.440 Here with your guest host Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. Today, 2:20:16.440 --> 2:20:21.120 I'm joined by Mia and I'm looking to discuss a 2:20:21.280 --> 2:20:24.280 topic that I brought up in passing in a previous episode, 2:20:24.720 --> 2:20:28.640 that being the idea of conviviality, and the episode in 2:20:28.720 --> 2:20:35.320 question being in my podcast on the Growth. So when 2:20:35.360 --> 2:20:39.760 I first stumbled upon this concept of conviviality, I thought 2:20:39.800 --> 2:20:44.720 it was just you know, one of those exciting, fluffy 2:20:46.760 --> 2:20:50.960 aged prop buzzwords, right, something you you throw into you know, 2:20:51.040 --> 2:20:56.680 your your propaganda, your conversations, your descriptions of a better world. 2:20:56.760 --> 2:20:58.920 You like, Oh, I would love to live in a 2:20:58.959 --> 2:21:02.080 world it's more convened on these different things. Convivial being 2:21:02.160 --> 2:21:05.400 defined in the Dictionary as the quality of being friendly 2:21:05.600 --> 2:21:06.160 and lively. 2:21:06.360 --> 2:21:06.480 Right. 2:21:07.760 --> 2:21:14.240 Synonyms include amiability, affability, continuality, et cetera, et cetera. I 2:21:14.280 --> 2:21:16.119 didn't come here to be a thesaurus. I came here 2:21:16.160 --> 2:21:19.680 to talk about the deeper meanings behind these things. Right. So, 2:21:20.600 --> 2:21:24.520 in such in this world, in this term up in 2:21:24.640 --> 2:21:27.480 more depth, I ended up going down this rabbit hole, 2:21:27.720 --> 2:21:30.320 and I discovered there's a whole history to the term 2:21:31.040 --> 2:21:33.840 that spans. I mean, I mean, I'm not going as 2:21:33.920 --> 2:21:36.880 far back as its Latin origins, right, I mean, we 2:21:36.959 --> 2:21:42.800 could talk about the French and their loan words making 2:21:42.840 --> 2:21:45.840 their way into the English language. We could talk about 2:21:46.040 --> 2:21:51.600 the Spanish concept of contivencia being interpreted literally as living 2:21:51.640 --> 2:21:56.240 in the company of others, or in one particular context, 2:21:56.640 --> 2:21:59.400 such as in Spain between the eighteenth and fifteenth centuries, 2:22:00.160 --> 2:22:04.320 describing the peaceful co existence between different religious groups. But 2:22:04.480 --> 2:22:07.920 I'm not going that far back. I'm sticking to the 2:22:09.920 --> 2:22:14.720 history of the term, from ivan Ilich to the de 2:22:14.920 --> 2:22:19.840 growth movement to the conviviality manifestos that have come out 2:22:20.560 --> 2:22:26.240 of online and offline discussions, academic and nonacademic discussions of 2:22:26.520 --> 2:22:30.640 this idea of conviviality. Now, I gave a sort of 2:22:30.720 --> 2:22:33.720 a basic dictionary definition before, but I want to go 2:22:34.560 --> 2:22:40.400 a bit deeper, right, So what is conviviality exactly? Conviviality 2:22:40.760 --> 2:22:44.760 is about creating a fun and friendly atmosphere where people 2:22:44.800 --> 2:22:47.160 can come together and have a great time. That's it 2:22:47.240 --> 2:22:49.840 in this essence, right, It's that feeling you get when 2:22:49.840 --> 2:22:54.280 you're surrounded by lively conversations and laughter and a sense 2:22:54.280 --> 2:22:57.520 of celebration. You know, those moments where everyone's enjoying each 2:22:57.520 --> 2:23:01.600 other's company and it's a real sense of camaraderie. I 2:23:01.720 --> 2:23:09.000 think using conviviality as a barometer is really helpful in 2:23:10.560 --> 2:23:15.360 organizing situations. Right, If you're in an environment where you 2:23:15.520 --> 2:23:19.080 are organized and where you're doing practice and you're not 2:23:19.280 --> 2:23:24.200 picking up those convivial vibes, it may be a sign 2:23:24.360 --> 2:23:28.960 that there's some toxicity in the mix there. I'm not 2:23:29.120 --> 2:23:35.840 saying that the work of activism has to be a 2:23:35.920 --> 2:23:38.640 trip to amusement park, right, It doesn't have to be 2:23:38.680 --> 2:23:42.440 a carnival, but I think there does need to be 2:23:42.560 --> 2:23:45.360 for sortidarity to exist. I think there should have some 2:23:45.600 --> 2:23:50.680 level of camaraderie and conviviality in the atmosphere. So you 2:23:50.720 --> 2:23:54.200 can think of conviviality as the spirit of hospitality and 2:23:54.400 --> 2:23:57.040 warth Right. It's like when you gather with your friends 2:23:57.120 --> 2:23:59.480 or when you have those family occasions and bring it 2:23:59.480 --> 2:24:05.320 around together. Even in workplace, you know, when union workers 2:24:05.440 --> 2:24:08.560 get along really well and you're organizing to create this 2:24:08.720 --> 2:24:10.920 union and you're going to take down your boss. It's 2:24:11.000 --> 2:24:16.280 a fun time, right, And so how do we get 2:24:16.320 --> 2:24:21.680 from this, you know, sort of seemingly simple, sociable idea 2:24:21.959 --> 2:24:24.720 of living and enjoying life in the company of others, 2:24:25.200 --> 2:24:28.920 making people feel welcome and included. How do we move 2:24:28.959 --> 2:24:32.880 from that idea this conviviality is a vital part of 2:24:32.959 --> 2:24:38.040 human interaction, to conviviality in a more political context. How 2:24:38.080 --> 2:24:40.800 do we go from just talking about social connections and 2:24:41.280 --> 2:24:47.039 adding meaning to our lives and enjoying festivities and shift 2:24:47.720 --> 2:24:52.200 to conversations about the social and political stay of the world. 2:24:52.320 --> 2:24:59.600 Right now, Right, there's this one particular guy who's kind 2:24:59.600 --> 2:25:03.800 of respons reponsible for this, A guy I personally like 2:25:03.879 --> 2:25:07.879 to call the illest, that being the one and only 2:25:08.520 --> 2:25:15.160 Australian philosopher, social critic and Catholic priest Ivan Elch Over 2:25:15.200 --> 2:25:17.840 the course, it was nearly eighty years of life since 2:25:18.000 --> 2:25:25.560 nineteen twenty six. This multi hyphenate, I think that's the 2:25:25.600 --> 2:25:27.000 tam where you use people who have a lot of 2:25:27.040 --> 2:25:36.200 different titles. Right, This multi hyphenate from Vienna, Italy had 2:25:36.320 --> 2:25:40.040 a significant impact on a bunch of fields, you know, 2:25:40.120 --> 2:25:44.560 from education to medicines, technology to social justice. I know 2:25:44.720 --> 2:25:46.600 his name because he came up a lot when I 2:25:46.680 --> 2:25:50.760 was doing research on unschool and te school and and 2:25:50.920 --> 2:25:54.039 just the education system as a whole. But apparently he's 2:25:54.040 --> 2:25:56.880 done a lot more than just that. He's challenged. He's 2:25:57.080 --> 2:26:01.640 challenged conventional thinking in all sort fields, and he's questioned 2:26:01.680 --> 2:26:08.040 the inherent assumptions and structures of modern society. Evans, and 2:26:08.240 --> 2:26:09.960 I hope he doesn't mind that I call me I Van, 2:26:11.680 --> 2:26:17.000 because I don't know if I'm pronouncing his German name correctly, right, 2:26:17.360 --> 2:26:20.120 his German lasting correctly, So just call him Ivan. He 2:26:20.160 --> 2:26:24.600 probably wouldn't mind, because he's dead. But Evan's intellectual journey 2:26:24.879 --> 2:26:27.560 took him through a bunch of different paths. Right. He 2:26:27.640 --> 2:26:31.800 studied theology and philosophy and eventually became a priest, and 2:26:31.879 --> 2:26:33.560 he lived and worked in different parts of the world, 2:26:33.600 --> 2:26:37.160 including Latin America, where he witnessed firsthand the effects of 2:26:37.240 --> 2:26:41.119 development projects and the power dynamics between developed and developing nations, 2:26:41.720 --> 2:26:46.440 and those experiences deeply influenced his critical perspective on the 2:26:46.520 --> 2:26:51.440 modern industrialized world. He also became a very prolific author, 2:26:51.640 --> 2:26:55.440 known for his thought provoking and often controversial writings such 2:26:55.480 --> 2:26:58.520 as The School and Society, which he published nineteen seventy one, 2:26:59.120 --> 2:27:03.800 Tools for Comality published nineteen seventy three, and Medical Nemesis, 2:27:03.959 --> 2:27:07.400 published in nineteen seventy six, and in these books he 2:27:07.560 --> 2:27:12.800 challenged established institutions and systems offered alternative visions that emphasized 2:27:12.840 --> 2:27:20.000 individual autonomy, community engagement, and wait for it, convivial relationships 2:27:21.920 --> 2:27:27.000 ilicious or evans critique of education systems contributed to development 2:27:27.080 --> 2:27:30.800 of altunative educational approaches such as homeschooling, on schooling, and 2:27:31.000 --> 2:27:35.480 learners centered education. His examination of the medical establishment sparked 2:27:35.520 --> 2:27:38.880 discussions on patient empowerment and the need for a more 2:27:38.959 --> 2:27:42.320 participatory model of healthcare, something I would like to discuss 2:27:42.520 --> 2:27:47.320 in a future episode, though I would like to find 2:27:47.400 --> 2:27:52.360 someone in the disability justice space to have that discussion with, 2:27:52.560 --> 2:27:58.600 because that is an area of experiential ignorance for me. Yes, 2:27:58.680 --> 2:28:02.800 So if anybody has a suggestions, I'd appreciate it. But 2:28:03.040 --> 2:28:07.400 Evan's legacy, right, it extends far beyond his lifetime, as 2:28:07.440 --> 2:28:11.480 it's clear he has elasting impact on critical theory, on 2:28:11.640 --> 2:28:15.560 social philosophy, and the quest for a more just and 2:28:15.840 --> 2:28:19.040 humane world. And I'm gassed up the guy a lot, 2:28:19.120 --> 2:28:21.480 and I'm sure he has some flaws that someone will 2:28:21.560 --> 2:28:24.920 no doubt inform me about and I have not read 2:28:24.959 --> 2:28:29.320 all of it. Yeah, he does go. He did go 2:28:29.440 --> 2:28:31.720 sign the Catholic Change byb being a priest, I se right, 2:28:31.879 --> 2:28:34.560 So I'm sure he has his flaws, and I have 2:28:34.680 --> 2:28:36.640 not read all of his literature. I haven't even read 2:28:37.000 --> 2:28:41.800 Medical Nemesis yet. But in Tools of Conviviality in particular, 2:28:42.000 --> 2:28:46.000 I want to discuss his perspective on conviviality and its 2:28:46.120 --> 2:28:49.879 role in society. Right in the book, he expresses these 2:28:50.000 --> 2:28:54.320 deep concerns about the negative effects of modern institutions and systems, 2:28:55.040 --> 2:28:58.199 and he argued that they often hindered personal freedom, autonomy, 2:28:58.240 --> 2:29:01.359 and human flourishing. He believes many of our social structures 2:29:01.440 --> 2:29:05.000 had become oppressive as they dictated not only how we 2:29:05.080 --> 2:29:10.880 should live, learn, and interact, but also how we saw 2:29:10.920 --> 2:29:15.360 ourselves as people. He argued that our systems had become 2:29:15.680 --> 2:29:22.040 highly centralized, reliant on professional expertise and complex technologies that 2:29:22.240 --> 2:29:27.160 limited individual agency and self determination. Now, one could be 2:29:28.480 --> 2:29:31.040 bad faith, I suppose and say that, Oh, is he 2:29:31.240 --> 2:29:36.400 saying that Ivan was anti complex technology? Is he some 2:29:36.640 --> 2:29:41.680 sort of popular culture vasadization of Luodites or something. But 2:29:43.440 --> 2:29:46.880 his concern was not necessarily on the technology itself and 2:29:46.920 --> 2:29:50.280 the complex dat of technology, but more so how that 2:29:50.480 --> 2:29:55.240 technology slotted into the structured society as a whole. Right, 2:29:55.800 --> 2:29:59.400 his concern was about how these elite professional groups had 2:29:59.520 --> 2:30:06.199 established called a radical monopoly over fundamental human activities including health, agriculture, 2:30:06.360 --> 2:30:10.920 home building, and learning. And this monopoly, it's monopoly is 2:30:10.920 --> 2:30:14.440 criticized and all the technology, but the monopoly, according to Ivan, 2:30:14.959 --> 2:30:19.520 had led to a detrimental war and subsistence that deprived 2:30:20.080 --> 2:30:24.080 formerly pasant societies of the essential skills and know how. 2:30:25.240 --> 2:30:26.600 Yeah, And I mean, like I feel like that's a 2:30:26.680 --> 2:30:30.160 pretty I think I think it's pretty hard to. 2:30:31.800 --> 2:30:32.680 Like tour that line. 2:30:33.400 --> 2:30:35.920 Well, I don't know if I think, like I think 2:30:35.959 --> 2:30:38.760 specifically that line of agriculture is pretty hard to like 2:30:39.560 --> 2:30:41.920 not fought, like, not agree with if you look at 2:30:41.959 --> 2:30:45.199 the effects that the Green Revolution had on other people 2:30:45.200 --> 2:30:48.320 who do agriculture. Oh yeah, sure, Yeah, I mean and 2:30:48.440 --> 2:30:51.440 I think this goes to it, like this falls in 2:30:51.560 --> 2:30:54.360 with the sort of like you know, like the sort 2:30:54.360 --> 2:30:56.680 of social technological aspect of it. Of like the fact 2:30:56.680 --> 2:30:58.600 that this was combined with this massive sort of social 2:30:58.640 --> 2:31:03.280 technological push to you know, dry farmers into debt, you know, 2:31:03.400 --> 2:31:05.320 so they could afford the inputs for this stuff, and 2:31:05.440 --> 2:31:07.520 what it did to sort of what it did to 2:31:07.520 --> 2:31:10.200 the actual farming communities and what it did to people's livelihoods. 2:31:10.440 --> 2:31:12.680 And you know the way that like a lot of 2:31:12.720 --> 2:31:14.960 this was just the sort of smoke screen for like 2:31:15.080 --> 2:31:18.160 consolidation of major landowners, et cetera, et cetera. Like I think, 2:31:18.640 --> 2:31:21.720 I think he's pretty on the right point. 2:31:22.040 --> 2:31:24.240 Yeah, yeah, For those who don't know, by the way, 2:31:24.920 --> 2:31:28.280 the Green Revolution refers to a period of technological advance 2:31:28.360 --> 2:31:31.240 moments and agricultural strategies that took place during the mid 2:31:31.360 --> 2:31:35.280 twentieth century, primarily in developing countries. It aimed to increase 2:31:35.320 --> 2:31:39.640 agricultural productivity and food production to the adoption of high 2:31:39.720 --> 2:31:43.840 yielding crop varieties, increased use of fertilizers, pesticides, and modern 2:31:43.879 --> 2:31:47.240 farming techniques. And the Green Revolution is basically responsible for 2:31:47.280 --> 2:31:51.280 a lot of the most damaging practices that we see 2:31:51.320 --> 2:31:55.879 in agriculture today, right from the heavy reliance on chemical 2:31:55.920 --> 2:31:59.240 inputs like fertilizers and pesticides, which leads to you know, 2:32:00.000 --> 2:32:03.400 soil degradation with war's a pollution lost by diversity, you know, 2:32:03.480 --> 2:32:07.720 the emphasis on monocultures and replacements of traditional crop varieties 2:32:07.800 --> 2:32:11.280 of high yielding ones that reduced agrobi diversity and led 2:32:11.320 --> 2:32:16.480 to diseases proliferate in between certain species, intensive farming practices 2:32:16.800 --> 2:32:21.280 that could not be kept up with by small scale farmers, 2:32:22.440 --> 2:32:27.400 like Mio was saying, the consolidation of land and the 2:32:27.480 --> 2:32:31.600 ability to manage that land into these acribusiness corporations and 2:32:32.000 --> 2:32:33.000 major landowners. 2:32:33.959 --> 2:32:36.680 Yeah, And I think it's worth emphasizing that this was 2:32:36.800 --> 2:32:39.560 very explicitly see anti communist thing. I mean, the State 2:32:39.600 --> 2:32:43.160 Department's like actual explicit line was a great revolution to 2:32:43.160 --> 2:32:46.040 stop a bread revolution. So like a big part of 2:32:46.120 --> 2:32:50.640 what this was about was like stopping land reform from happening, 2:32:51.440 --> 2:32:53.400 which right, yeah, is incredibly bleak. 2:32:54.760 --> 2:32:58.160 Yeah, and now it's the dominant practice globally and it's 2:32:58.200 --> 2:33:02.200 having detrimental impacts globally the end. Yeah, and I mean 2:33:02.360 --> 2:33:04.480 some of those some of them are going to be 2:33:04.560 --> 2:33:07.040 dead very soon. Yeah, the rest of us have to 2:33:07.040 --> 2:33:13.840 suffer the consequences story of my life, yeap, which. 2:33:15.320 --> 2:33:19.640 Is right. Yeah. You think that's sort of wild about 2:33:19.680 --> 2:33:21.560 it too, is that like the countries that did land 2:33:21.600 --> 2:33:25.879 reform like developed better capitalist economies and the ones who didn't. 2:33:26.440 --> 2:33:31.840 But yeah, you know, like yeah, yay, the better doing copless. 2:33:32.240 --> 2:33:34.440 Yeah. Well, I mean and like yeah, it's like they're 2:33:34.480 --> 2:33:37.440 they're better. It turns out doing land reform actually does 2:33:37.560 --> 2:33:42.200 help both like non capitalist and capitalist economies. But unfortunately 2:33:42.240 --> 2:33:44.920 the green revolutionary people, the revolution people like already even 2:33:45.640 --> 2:33:48.480 like people who care about the efficiency of capitalism, they 2:33:48.520 --> 2:33:50.840 care about like the power of the land owning class. 2:33:51.280 --> 2:33:53.480 Well, yeah, and I mean that I don't know if 2:33:53.520 --> 2:33:55.000 this is a saying, but I might make it a 2:33:55.120 --> 2:33:58.080 say in I think socialists are beat are doing copitless 2:33:58.120 --> 2:33:58.879 and then copless. 2:33:58.920 --> 2:34:04.040 So yeah, I mean the entire is this is the 2:34:04.200 --> 2:34:07.280 entire story of China, right, It's like, yeah, like Marc's 2:34:07.360 --> 2:34:10.120 Leninism is a really really efficient way to turn a 2:34:10.160 --> 2:34:12.119 feudal economy into a capitalist economy. 2:34:13.000 --> 2:34:16.960 Yeah, Like, if I was in charge of capitalism, I 2:34:17.160 --> 2:34:19.080 was going to make sure that the people at the 2:34:19.120 --> 2:34:23.560 bottom class brought into the system. Who will see and yeah, 2:34:24.000 --> 2:34:27.200 propaganding education is a part of it, but also you 2:34:27.280 --> 2:34:30.199 want to make sure they're not vulnerable to being radicalized. 2:34:30.520 --> 2:34:32.000 The best way to do that is to ensure the 2:34:32.160 --> 2:34:39.279 basic needs are met. Yeah, but you know, even arguing 2:34:39.400 --> 2:34:44.440 that will have some people, uh, misinformed, I would say, 2:34:44.520 --> 2:34:49.920 but well intentioned labeling you a socialist, Like I think 2:34:50.000 --> 2:34:54.199 people should have good things. Oh you're dirty red comedy 2:34:54.320 --> 2:34:57.760 you but you know it's it's just well, it's just 2:34:57.840 --> 2:35:01.960 literally wealthier capitalism. But apparently that's too much for a 2:35:02.000 --> 2:35:05.560 lot of capitalists. Apparently. I mean literally, the reason we 2:35:05.640 --> 2:35:10.720 have welfare capitalism is because socialists forward for it in 2:35:10.760 --> 2:35:13.879 the early twentieth century and early to mid twentieth century. 2:35:13.959 --> 2:35:16.720 So you know, we have socialists to thank for everything, basically. 2:35:17.840 --> 2:35:21.840 But I'm getting off track, right, So, like I was saying, 2:35:22.120 --> 2:35:26.480 this monopoly, this radical monopoly over fundamental human activities, that's 2:35:26.600 --> 2:35:30.560 a detrimental war and subsistence that are deprived peasant societies 2:35:30.840 --> 2:35:34.880 of the essential skills and know how, instead of promoting 2:35:35.000 --> 2:35:39.840 human flourishing, all this economic development ended up feeding into 2:35:39.920 --> 2:35:45.600 what Yvane has termed modernized poverty. And it's something I 2:35:45.680 --> 2:35:49.360 think about often, right, this idea of the poor back 2:35:49.440 --> 2:35:52.680 then versus the poor now, right, And of course it 2:35:52.720 --> 2:35:55.880 depends on which society you're talking about, which time period 2:35:55.879 --> 2:36:01.880 you're talking about. But let's just pick some random like 2:36:02.200 --> 2:36:07.400 historic poor person. Right, Let's just say, I don't know, 2:36:07.600 --> 2:36:14.640 generic civilization, A. This person is poor, right, They after work, 2:36:15.040 --> 2:36:19.360 they have to work the land, backbreaking toil. Sometimes raiders 2:36:19.400 --> 2:36:21.040 would roll it and be like, oh, we're going to 2:36:21.080 --> 2:36:23.600 take your stuff now, and then they would like ride 2:36:23.600 --> 2:36:26.920 their horses away and probably I don't know, dab on 2:36:27.040 --> 2:36:30.920 you or whatever, or the raiders will roll in, they'll 2:36:30.959 --> 2:36:32.640 take your stuff and then they'll be like, oh, I 2:36:32.720 --> 2:36:35.039 want to stay, and then now you have to pay 2:36:35.120 --> 2:36:36.920 taxes to me every year. And you know, that's how 2:36:37.040 --> 2:36:42.280 a lot of states were created. But whether it's you know, 2:36:42.360 --> 2:36:47.960 nomadic warlords or settled warlords, at least you had a house. 2:36:48.959 --> 2:36:51.320 At least you had a community. At least you had 2:36:51.360 --> 2:36:54.120 the ability to grow your own food, even though a 2:36:54.200 --> 2:37:00.560 lot of that food was being taxed. And you know, 2:37:01.200 --> 2:37:03.600 at least you had certain skills that you could use 2:37:03.640 --> 2:37:08.400 to sustain yourself. Right. Compare that to modern poverty, where 2:37:08.440 --> 2:37:12.600 you have this large swath of people who are dependent, 2:37:13.280 --> 2:37:16.840 who are mechanical parts in a system that they cannot 2:37:16.920 --> 2:37:22.120 fully understand, comprehend and control for themselves. With this, you know, 2:37:22.320 --> 2:37:27.280 whole industrial revolution, where you take this process of making 2:37:27.320 --> 2:37:30.000 a chair, for example, and you break it up into 2:37:30.000 --> 2:37:32.600 a bunch of different steps, and each person that step, well, 2:37:32.640 --> 2:37:34.000 you knows how to do one thing, but they don't 2:37:34.040 --> 2:37:39.000 have to do the entire thing right. Like the poor 2:37:39.080 --> 2:37:41.959 today versus the poor of yesteryear, the latter still had 2:37:42.040 --> 2:37:44.720 these skills for subsistence, and many of today is poor, 2:37:45.160 --> 2:37:47.800 particularly the urban poor, because I know the rural poor, 2:37:47.959 --> 2:37:52.680 a lot of them still sustain themselves, still practice you know, 2:37:53.680 --> 2:37:56.840 sustem subsistence farming and that kind of thing, but particularly 2:37:56.879 --> 2:37:59.000 the urban poor, they don't even have like a lot 2:37:59.000 --> 2:38:01.800 of those skills to rely on to even sustain themselves 2:38:01.840 --> 2:38:06.840 in that level. For the urbanists in the audience, you 2:38:06.959 --> 2:38:09.800 might appreciate the Devan also talks about the dominance of 2:38:10.000 --> 2:38:13.360 cars and how they've created this radical monopoly over land 2:38:13.840 --> 2:38:17.000 sitting out urban environments into the domain of cars, which 2:38:17.040 --> 2:38:21.080 not only compromises the environment for pedestrians and cyclists, but 2:38:21.200 --> 2:38:27.280 also disrupts our innate mobility as human beings. Stephen takes 2:38:27.280 --> 2:38:31.959 it a step further right. And this particular opinion, opinion 2:38:32.040 --> 2:38:34.960 of his is a bit shaky for me, so something 2:38:34.959 --> 2:38:37.000 I've been let in stewing my brain a little bit more. 2:38:38.240 --> 2:38:42.080 But let me just read the quote. The radical monopoly 2:38:42.320 --> 2:38:47.920 cars establish is destructive in a special way. Cars create distance. 2:38:48.560 --> 2:38:52.920 Speedy vehicles of all kinds render space, scarce. They drive 2:38:53.080 --> 2:38:57.280 wedges of highways into populated areas and the next door 2:38:57.480 --> 2:39:00.560 tolls on the bridge over the remoteness between people that 2:39:00.760 --> 2:39:05.080 was manufactured for their sake. This monopoly overland tour in 2:39:05.240 --> 2:39:09.360 space into cough fodder. It destroys the environment for feet 2:39:09.480 --> 2:39:12.840 and bicycles, even if polices and buses could run as 2:39:12.959 --> 2:39:16.200 non pollutant, even if planes and buses could run as 2:39:16.280 --> 2:39:21.200 non pollutant, non deplice in public services, they're inhuman velocities, 2:39:21.560 --> 2:39:24.879 wo degrade mans inned mobility and force him to spend 2:39:24.959 --> 2:39:28.640 more time for the sake of travel. I'm sure he 2:39:28.640 --> 2:39:31.000 could pick up on why that particular opinion is a 2:39:31.040 --> 2:39:33.959 bit shaky, right, Yeah, it's not just anti car. He's 2:39:34.040 --> 2:39:35.920 also a bit anti fleen and bus. 2:39:37.360 --> 2:39:40.840 To be fair, I'm also anti bus, but like planes, 2:39:41.000 --> 2:39:43.280 I don't know, like, are they great for the environment? 2:39:43.400 --> 2:39:43.440 No? 2:39:43.800 --> 2:39:47.279 Do you sometimes need to go to another continent? Yes? 2:39:48.959 --> 2:39:53.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah, so he is. He probably reads like 2:39:54.760 --> 2:39:58.240 r slash f cars and he's like, uh, y'all, don't 2:39:58.240 --> 2:39:58.720 take it far. 2:39:58.840 --> 2:40:01.279 You know, you guys are filming models. 2:40:04.160 --> 2:40:09.800 Liberals. But yeah, so, I highly recommend reading the actual 2:40:09.840 --> 2:40:12.560 book and full for further insight and context, and I 2:40:12.640 --> 2:40:14.400 do want to dig into his thoughts on it further 2:40:14.440 --> 2:40:18.360 in the future, but you know, food for thought. Let 2:40:18.400 --> 2:40:25.879 me know what you think of those inhuman velocities. But anyway, 2:40:27.240 --> 2:40:30.760 memes aside, I think the benefit of Evan's critique of 2:40:30.840 --> 2:40:35.080 the radical monopoly is that it provides a different perspective, right. 2:40:35.320 --> 2:40:39.320 It sheds light on the negative consequences of excessive specialization, 2:40:39.879 --> 2:40:43.760 technocratic control, and the prioritization of speed and efficiency over 2:40:43.879 --> 2:40:48.400 human well being. Zoeb on YouTube actually has a really 2:40:48.480 --> 2:40:52.240 great video and the idea of efficiency as this ultimate 2:40:52.360 --> 2:40:55.840 moral good, so I recommend checking that out, especially since 2:40:55.879 --> 2:40:59.320 the standard narrative that we are utterly bombarded by is 2:40:59.400 --> 2:41:01.840 that all these things are uncontroversially good. 2:41:02.360 --> 2:41:02.520 Right. 2:41:03.120 --> 2:41:06.480 What I appreciate about Yvan and his ideas is that 2:41:06.720 --> 2:41:11.520 they challenge us to reconsider our relationship with systems, tools, 2:41:11.840 --> 2:41:17.039 and institutions, and he encourages us to strive for more 2:41:17.120 --> 2:41:22.000 balanced and confivial society. And what does that convivial society 2:41:22.080 --> 2:41:27.560 look like to him? Well, let's continue. Ivan's solution argues 2:41:27.600 --> 2:41:30.920 for the developments of new, accessible and user friendly instruments 2:41:31.240 --> 2:41:34.480 that would allow average citizens to regain practical knowledge and 2:41:34.600 --> 2:41:37.440 reclaim control over their lives, as well as resist the 2:41:37.480 --> 2:41:42.000 domination of specialized elites. That's why Ivan Ilich's book Tools 2:41:42.040 --> 2:41:49.040 for Conviviality is sponsored by Skills. All right, I know 2:41:49.120 --> 2:41:53.760 that's a bad joke. Yvan believed that society should be 2:41:54.120 --> 2:41:58.520 organized to save the needs and aspirations of individuals, rather 2:41:58.640 --> 2:42:03.680 than creating systems that their potential and autronomy. And so 2:42:03.840 --> 2:42:09.360 for Yvan conviviality. Here we are back to the original topic. 2:42:09.840 --> 2:42:14.120 Conviviality represented a society in which individuals had the power 2:42:14.240 --> 2:42:18.160 to shape their own lives, free from excessive dependence on 2:42:18.320 --> 2:42:22.920 institutionalized systems. He envisioned a will people had access to 2:42:23.080 --> 2:42:29.040 convivial tools, simple user friendly technologies that empowered them to 2:42:29.120 --> 2:42:33.480 take control of their own destinies. For example, the dominant 2:42:33.560 --> 2:42:37.320 education system separates learners from the real world and disempowers them. 2:42:38.040 --> 2:42:41.680 Yvan advocates for more self directed and community based education, 2:42:42.200 --> 2:42:45.480 where people could pursue knowledge and skills according to their 2:42:45.520 --> 2:42:50.560 own interests and needs. Van also critiques the over reliance 2:42:50.640 --> 2:42:53.360 on medical professionals and call for a shift towards a 2:42:53.400 --> 2:42:57.240 more participatory model of healthcare that gives individuals access to 2:42:57.280 --> 2:43:00.760 information and resources that allow them to actively participate in 2:43:00.800 --> 2:43:04.000 their own health decisions rather than be in these passive 2:43:04.040 --> 2:43:10.040 recipients of medical interventions. In transportation systems, he also advocates 2:43:10.040 --> 2:43:14.200 for more human skill and community oriented transportation alternatives. He 2:43:14.360 --> 2:43:17.840 envisions neighborhoods designed for walking and biking, which would foster 2:43:17.959 --> 2:43:23.240 social interactions and reduce the environmental impact of excessive motorized transport. 2:43:24.040 --> 2:43:28.760 In essence, Evan viewed conviviality as a transformative concept that 2:43:28.879 --> 2:43:32.600 aimed to restore individual agency and personal connections and a 2:43:32.680 --> 2:43:38.039 sense of empowerment in society. He challenged the prevalance structures 2:43:38.160 --> 2:43:42.359 and systems that limited human potential and proposed more participatory, 2:43:42.720 --> 2:43:46.680 community driven alternatives, and to this day, his ideas continue 2:43:46.720 --> 2:43:50.240 to inspire discussions on how we can create a convivial 2:43:50.320 --> 2:43:55.120 society that values human relationships, self determination, and a shared 2:43:55.120 --> 2:43:59.720 responsibility for shaping our own lives. What I found particularly 2:43:59.760 --> 2:44:03.400 in in researching this was learned that the book's vision 2:44:03.480 --> 2:44:06.440 of tools that would be developed maintained by a community 2:44:06.480 --> 2:44:10.440 of users that actually had significant influence on the first 2:44:10.480 --> 2:44:16.359 developers the personal computer mind blowing I know most notably 2:44:16.480 --> 2:44:20.200 one of the create first developers of the PC, Lee 2:44:20.280 --> 2:44:26.480 Felt Felsenstein, Lee Felsenstein, he and several others were just 2:44:27.320 --> 2:44:31.480 were inspired by this idea within the book, because we 2:44:31.480 --> 2:44:36.440 remember Ivana's righting this before the internet, and they go 2:44:36.560 --> 2:44:38.760 and they take this idea, and then they make the internet, 2:44:39.200 --> 2:44:42.120 or they make the personal computer, because computers existed prior 2:44:42.160 --> 2:44:45.240 to the personal computer, but they weren't as accessible, they 2:44:45.280 --> 2:44:49.080 weren't a tool of conviviality, whereas the personal computer of 2:44:49.120 --> 2:44:54.199 today is. And I just think that's beautiful and amazing. 2:44:55.120 --> 2:44:58.440 But Ivan's ideas did more than just, you know, shape 2:44:58.480 --> 2:45:02.040 the course of human history. He also would shape the 2:45:02.120 --> 2:45:07.280 creation of confivulist movement. In twenty ten, eight years after 2:45:07.520 --> 2:45:10.800 Ivan died and thirty seven years after Yvan published Tools 2:45:10.800 --> 2:45:17.560 for Conviviality, Raymond de Boiver published Confivialism, a philosophical Manifesto, 2:45:18.200 --> 2:45:21.720 and in it, Barvert begins by discussing the key theme 2:45:21.959 --> 2:45:24.800 in Michael Polland's books The Botany of Desire, which is 2:45:24.879 --> 2:45:28.160 a creage read by the way, and The Omnivores Dilemma, 2:45:28.320 --> 2:45:31.120 which I haven't read yet, But the key theme is 2:45:31.640 --> 2:45:32.280 co evolution. 2:45:32.879 --> 2:45:33.039 Right. 2:45:33.480 --> 2:45:38.480 The first book humorously suggests that plants manipulate humans to coevolve, 2:45:38.600 --> 2:45:41.080 with them taking care of their needs in exchange for 2:45:41.200 --> 2:45:45.320 nutrition or beauty, and the second book, The Omnivoe Dilemma, 2:45:46.000 --> 2:45:50.440 the importance of interconnected components for vibrant pharm is emphasized, 2:45:50.520 --> 2:45:53.200 with Korn serving as an example of a plant that 2:45:53.320 --> 2:45:58.920 relies on humans for survival. Bavert proposes that focusing on 2:45:59.040 --> 2:46:03.920 the prefix co in co evolution could have philosophical implications 2:46:03.959 --> 2:46:11.440 similar to William James's emphasis on the preposition with by 2:46:11.720 --> 2:46:14.640 you know. Examining the significance of these prepositions co com 2:46:14.879 --> 2:46:18.199 con or coal as well as sin, the author argues 2:46:18.280 --> 2:46:23.520 for a philosophy that recognizes omnipresent interconnection. Michael Polland's books 2:46:23.600 --> 2:46:27.800 do this well in the context of food, but Waver 2:46:28.000 --> 2:46:34.480 wants to take this The implications of this uh taken 2:46:34.560 --> 2:46:41.320 preposition seriously into rearrangement the philosophy itself, and now we're getting, 2:46:41.640 --> 2:46:46.080 you know, kind of heavy, right, As Quavert argues, philosophers 2:46:46.120 --> 2:46:52.000 have often neglected the significance of interconnected relationships, while farmers 2:46:52.080 --> 2:46:55.040 recognize the importance of interconnectedness. You know how things like 2:46:55.200 --> 2:47:00.000 land and water and stuff all work together. Modern philosophy, 2:47:00.080 --> 2:47:02.879 on the other hand, according to Bova, since the Renaissance 2:47:03.360 --> 2:47:06.640 has been focused on these self standing and independent entities, 2:47:07.200 --> 2:47:10.720 not interconnected entities. And I don't know how true this 2:47:10.959 --> 2:47:16.360 is because I'm not I didn't study philosophy. I'm just 2:47:17.440 --> 2:47:24.280 communicating Varveir's arguments here, right. And so the idea of 2:47:24.840 --> 2:47:31.199 autonomy in modern philosophy, according to Barva, seem to exclude 2:47:31.240 --> 2:47:37.600 the with factor in existence, relegating relations and interconnections to 2:47:37.720 --> 2:47:43.279 a secondary role. So Whatver is saying is that philosophy 2:47:43.360 --> 2:47:46.560 is sort on this foundation that we are autonomous and 2:47:46.640 --> 2:47:50.520 self sufficient first, right, and then everything else comes after. 2:47:52.840 --> 2:47:53.000 You know. 2:47:53.720 --> 2:47:59.240 Rousseau, for example, portrayed an idyllic existence where connections independencies 2:47:59.280 --> 2:48:04.320 with viewers the impositions. You know, we went from being 2:48:04.400 --> 2:48:09.560 autonomous to being stuck in this whoever inter dependencies, and 2:48:09.680 --> 2:48:14.280 then as a result coming out to that, the philosophical 2:48:14.879 --> 2:48:21.040 idea of liberation for some ended up returning for some 2:48:21.840 --> 2:48:26.160 meant to return into this original state of authenticity and 2:48:26.280 --> 2:48:32.720 disengagement from connections. The concept of freedom itself became something 2:48:32.800 --> 2:48:41.800 that was anti interdependency, and so the focus shifted away 2:48:41.840 --> 2:48:47.480 from this idea of humans being inherently interdependent. But then 2:48:47.600 --> 2:48:51.440 this alternative point of view came about, right, And this 2:48:51.520 --> 2:48:55.120 shift coincided with the introduction of the term symbiosis and biology, 2:48:55.520 --> 2:48:57.920 which combined the Greek word for life with the preposition 2:48:58.120 --> 2:49:03.199 with and the concept of sympiosis found its way eventually 2:49:03.240 --> 2:49:08.359 into everyday language and discourse. So that's the Greek term symbiosis. 2:49:09.160 --> 2:49:12.400 Let me go to the Latin term conviviality, meaning with living, 2:49:13.560 --> 2:49:17.480 and that long predated you know, science and philosophy used 2:49:17.480 --> 2:49:23.760 to describe just ordinary experiences. And so to avoid getting 2:49:23.840 --> 2:49:29.320 lost into the philosopher's favorite past time of you know, 2:49:29.720 --> 2:49:34.960 navigating various words and all their package to bort a 2:49:35.040 --> 2:49:42.240 downed simplicity, Boivert is seeking to ask what a conviviloust 2:49:42.360 --> 2:49:46.240 turn in philosophy might look like and what changes in 2:49:46.280 --> 2:49:50.360 philosophy might be taken place. For one, he's concerned with 2:49:50.440 --> 2:49:57.480 how embracing convivialism might change our understanding of metaphysics. 2:49:58.959 --> 2:49:59.080 Right. 2:50:00.040 --> 2:50:07.240 By embracing this metaphors of existence as about the relation 2:50:07.480 --> 2:50:12.320 and conjunction between components, about the interplane interconnectedness of various elements, 2:50:12.560 --> 2:50:16.840 rather than about a collection of separate units, you end 2:50:16.959 --> 2:50:23.480 up going from this position of isolation to this position 2:50:23.879 --> 2:50:29.480 of profound interrelation, and then you begin to focus on 2:50:30.280 --> 2:50:40.000 the interactions between people rather than just the experiences within people. 2:50:41.760 --> 2:50:44.760 In the sphere of philosophical anthropology, while Vera argues that 2:50:45.000 --> 2:50:49.560 are contrivial to and would mean redefining humanity, you know, 2:50:49.640 --> 2:50:52.800 taking this concept that you know, we're not just these 2:50:52.840 --> 2:50:56.840 purely logical and calculating beings. We are Homo sapiens. And 2:50:57.040 --> 2:50:59.879 the term sapiens is derived from the Latin word for taste, 2:51:00.480 --> 2:51:05.240 which highlights the human capacity to constantly try and test, 2:51:06.080 --> 2:51:10.600 to constantly experiments, to actually participate in interactions with our surroundings. 2:51:13.480 --> 2:51:17.600 So in this cond of your turn, we return to 2:51:19.680 --> 2:51:26.200 the original definition of the name we gave ourselves right 2:51:26.840 --> 2:51:34.000 as taste does as flexible, educable, subject to investigation and improvement, 2:51:35.400 --> 2:51:38.400 constantly testing and experiment and then seeing what is best 2:51:38.480 --> 2:51:46.400 in specific contexts. Seeing that taste as sapiens, as homo sapiens, 2:51:46.920 --> 2:51:54.160 taste is inherently pluralistic because there is no universe cell taste. 2:51:54.720 --> 2:51:57.680 There is no single taste that is like, oh, this 2:51:57.920 --> 2:51:59.959 is the taste. Everybody must have cared to this taste. 2:52:00.440 --> 2:52:03.360 Everybody has a different taste. We talk about that when 2:52:03.440 --> 2:52:07.800 we talk about taste, and I think the implications are 2:52:07.959 --> 2:52:12.880 particularly profound when we bring it into the preferative, this 2:52:12.920 --> 2:52:19.120 sphere of profriative politics. Right whereas tasters as experimenters, we 2:52:19.240 --> 2:52:23.880 are looking for ways to prefigure new social relations and 2:52:23.920 --> 2:52:28.680 institutions and relationships and structures and systems for the future 2:52:28.760 --> 2:52:31.200 in the here now, and that requires tastes, and that 2:52:31.280 --> 2:52:35.560 requires experimentation. That requires an acceptance of pluralism, because everyone 2:52:35.600 --> 2:52:37.480 has a different taste, and everyone's going to bring something 2:52:37.560 --> 2:52:42.600 different to the table, and that's beautiful. And then also 2:52:42.640 --> 2:52:46.520 in the field of epistemology, the confribulist perspective challenges the 2:52:46.560 --> 2:52:50.760 opposition between subject and object to understand reality, rejects the 2:52:50.840 --> 2:52:53.400 idea of the mind as a mere mirror reflecting reality 2:52:54.000 --> 2:52:58.600 or project imposts and conceptual schemes onto reality. Because confivialism 2:52:58.720 --> 2:53:05.720 is about how the intermediaries, the facility to interactions, how 2:53:05.840 --> 2:53:09.040 they affect the way that we perceive and reflect on 2:53:09.200 --> 2:53:13.520 reality itself. It also requires us to let go of 2:53:13.640 --> 2:53:19.640 this subject object dichotomy in our pursuit of knowledge and understanding, 2:53:19.720 --> 2:53:24.879 which itself has implications on even the field of science. 2:53:25.120 --> 2:53:30.160 Because you know, the idea of the scientists and the 2:53:30.240 --> 2:53:38.440 popular imagination is you know the subject who is whatever 2:53:38.560 --> 2:53:43.959 that scientist is studying, that is the object. But contrivialism 2:53:45.000 --> 2:53:48.520 caused us to pause and reflect on how that subject, 2:53:48.640 --> 2:53:53.720 that object, and how intermediary is between them affect their 2:53:53.800 --> 2:53:58.360 perception of each other, affect the subject, the scientist's ability 2:53:58.360 --> 2:54:02.400 to pursue knowledge and understanding the objects if the object 2:54:02.480 --> 2:54:05.440 is a pooston to do the same. And finally, Baver 2:54:05.640 --> 2:54:11.280 digs into the rigid division between nature and culture and 2:54:11.400 --> 2:54:17.320 how the convivilous perspective challenges that. The continuous interactions and 2:54:17.400 --> 2:54:30.119 transformations that occur in existence makes it problematic to consider 2:54:30.520 --> 2:54:35.360 the divisions between human societies, between human societies and the 2:54:35.440 --> 2:54:41.000 ecosystems that surround them as fundamental aspects of existence. Right, 2:54:41.800 --> 2:54:49.119 the boundary between nature and culture is one that constantly blues. 2:54:49.200 --> 2:54:54.320 It is difficult to place, particularly when there's an embrace 2:54:54.560 --> 2:54:59.400 by certain cultures of that interconnectedness and interdependence between their 2:54:59.480 --> 2:55:03.080 culture and the nature that surrounds them. And then when 2:55:03.200 --> 2:55:07.720 you see that blurring of lines between culture and nature, 2:55:08.360 --> 2:55:12.879 you might also recognize a blurring of lines between human 2:55:13.120 --> 2:55:16.320 and non human In the context of community, the idea 2:55:16.320 --> 2:55:23.960 of community being exclusively human domain becomes less apt, I suppose, 2:55:25.400 --> 2:55:30.760 as it recognize the way that non humans influence and 2:55:30.920 --> 2:55:36.560 effect and engage and interact with humans in this you know, collectivity. 2:55:38.720 --> 2:55:44.480 We use terms like community and city and society and 2:55:44.480 --> 2:55:49.440 stuff to refer to the human aspects of interaction, and 2:55:49.520 --> 2:55:54.400 we use things like ecosystem and biome to emphasize non 2:55:54.480 --> 2:55:59.680 human aspects of interaction. But the interactions in humans, animals, 2:56:00.040 --> 2:56:04.199 and inanimate entity is to not always thought so neatly 2:56:04.440 --> 2:56:10.400 into that metaphysical description of reality. Of course, we use 2:56:10.440 --> 2:56:13.360 these divisions for certain specific research purposes. We say, oh, 2:56:13.400 --> 2:56:18.000 I'm a sociologist, I'm an anthropologist, I'm a biologist and ecologist, 2:56:18.040 --> 2:56:25.000 et cetera. But we can't forget that convivialism. Conviviality asks 2:56:25.080 --> 2:56:30.160 us not to forget that those are human impositions that 2:56:31.360 --> 2:56:37.160 we should not let obscure our ability to make sense 2:56:37.360 --> 2:56:41.720 of reality as a whole. I know, things got really 2:56:42.440 --> 2:56:46.119 heavy there. I hope that everything I said made sense. 2:56:47.520 --> 2:56:51.080 And if you need a breather or some time to 2:56:51.720 --> 2:56:56.640 pause and reflect further on the implications on this simple 2:56:57.040 --> 2:57:02.160 cute fun to say a little Latin word conviviality. We're 2:57:02.200 --> 2:57:07.600 going to take a pause here, but next time you 2:57:07.680 --> 2:57:10.920 can join us as we discuss how people have gone 2:57:10.959 --> 2:57:18.040 from this term to urge his ideas two Jourve's philosophical 2:57:18.080 --> 2:57:23.440 indications to more recent manifestos of the convivial movement and 2:57:23.600 --> 2:57:28.080 how they can relate to the growth and beyond. You 2:57:28.160 --> 2:57:32.960 can find me on YouTube dot com slash Andrewism and 2:57:33.160 --> 2:57:35.320 you can support beyond peach in dot com slash Saint 2:57:35.400 --> 2:57:43.320 Drew once again, I'm Andrew, joined by Mia and this 2:57:44.480 --> 2:58:04.720 is it could happen here. Its welcome to Part two 2:58:05.400 --> 2:58:06.959 of conviviality. 2:58:08.080 --> 2:58:08.480 What is it? 2:58:09.560 --> 2:58:13.320 What are people thinking about it? How is this funky 2:58:13.440 --> 2:58:17.119 Latin would changing and evolving and sitting into an entire movement, 2:58:17.720 --> 2:58:21.879 and how is it affecting other movements. The last time, 2:58:21.920 --> 2:58:25.959 we spoke about the idea of conviviality, you know, which 2:58:26.080 --> 2:58:36.400 is essentially good vibes, fun, happy, chill, cool interactions between 2:58:36.520 --> 2:58:39.640 people you know, living well together and joint life in 2:58:39.680 --> 2:58:43.000 the company of others, making sure people are included and 2:58:43.160 --> 2:58:46.000 welcomed so they can relax and have a great experience. 2:58:47.360 --> 2:58:52.360 We spoke about the illist multi hyphen it. That is 2:58:52.760 --> 2:58:58.080 Ivan Ilich. We spoke allut the philosophical foundations that are 2:58:58.120 --> 2:59:02.320 being built around conviviality, what those implications have been on 2:59:02.440 --> 2:59:07.240 metaphysics and philosophical anthropology and epistemology and more. And so 2:59:07.360 --> 2:59:10.160 now we're going to get into the actual movement. So 2:59:10.280 --> 2:59:13.920 the first manifesto was published by the Center for Global 2:59:14.280 --> 2:59:18.760 Cooperation Research in twenty fourteen. It discusses some of our 2:59:18.879 --> 2:59:23.039 current threats, including global warming and its consequences, ecosystem degradation, 2:59:23.320 --> 2:59:27.920 nuclear disaster risk, resource case ty, poverty, well disparities, political disintegration, 2:59:28.400 --> 2:59:32.200 instate conflicts, terrorism and security, criminal networks, influencers, specultive of 2:59:32.240 --> 2:59:36.480 financial politics, blah blah blah blah blah. You know, you 2:59:36.560 --> 2:59:39.800 know the drill. If you're in this space, everything sucks. 2:59:39.920 --> 2:59:42.119 It could happen here. That's the name of the show, 2:59:43.520 --> 2:59:48.480 et cetera. The central challenges that we could drive ourselves 2:59:48.520 --> 2:59:51.120 the extinction right now, and if we don't turn this 2:59:51.240 --> 2:59:53.680 car around, and we could take most of the world 2:59:53.760 --> 2:59:57.440 with us. This particular manifesto, which is asking four basic 2:59:57.800 --> 3:00:03.560 questions and their considerations and what we should consider about them. 3:00:04.480 --> 3:00:11.720 Right For one, for moral question, what may individuals legitimately 3:00:11.800 --> 3:00:15.200 aspire to and where must they draw the line? And 3:00:15.560 --> 3:00:19.800 the Manifesto answers with considering that every individual has a 3:00:19.920 --> 3:00:24.040 legitimate aspiration to be treated with equal dignity, to have 3:00:24.240 --> 3:00:26.840 access to the necessary material conditions for their vision of 3:00:26.879 --> 3:00:30.920 a good life or considering other's perspectives, and participate meaningfully 3:00:31.000 --> 3:00:35.360 in political life and decision making. However, individuals must also 3:00:35.440 --> 3:00:41.000 avoid exceed inbounds and succumb in to this infantile desire 3:00:41.160 --> 3:00:45.760 for power and control, which jeopardizes social cohesion and the 3:00:45.840 --> 3:00:50.240 principle of common humanity. What that means is that we 3:00:50.400 --> 3:00:56.000 need to actively be combatant corruption, refusing to engage in 3:00:56.120 --> 3:01:00.440 actions that compromise police and values for personal gain, posing 3:01:00.440 --> 3:01:05.959 the corruption others to the extent of wuntabilities encourage fighting hierarchy. 3:01:06.040 --> 3:01:08.760 I mean to manifesto doesn't say a thing about fighting hierarchy, 3:01:08.840 --> 3:01:11.120 which I think is a fall to the manifesto. But 3:01:11.240 --> 3:01:13.520 I think for ANATICI is reading it, the implications are 3:01:13.560 --> 3:01:15.280 pretty clear. And that's what I have to do with 3:01:15.320 --> 3:01:17.280 a lot of stuff I read, you know, like read 3:01:17.360 --> 3:01:20.920 between the lines and pick up the points that the 3:01:21.000 --> 3:01:25.560 author missed. And so that's the moral consideration right, What 3:01:25.760 --> 3:01:28.320 should we aspire to? Where must we draw the line? 3:01:28.680 --> 3:01:31.120 We aspire to being true with equal dignity, have an 3:01:31.200 --> 3:01:34.680 access to decision making power, having a good life by 3:01:34.720 --> 3:01:38.680 having access to material conditions met, and we try to 3:01:38.879 --> 3:01:43.120 avoid exceeding boundaries our social boundaries, and we should try 3:01:43.200 --> 3:01:48.800 to avoid exceeding social boundaries related to hierarchy and control 3:01:49.280 --> 3:01:55.760 and power. The second question is political. It asks us 3:01:56.240 --> 3:02:01.520 which are the legitimate political communities. So the manifesto argues 3:02:01.560 --> 3:02:03.680 that the establishment of a single wild state in their 3:02:03.720 --> 3:02:07.040 future is unlikely and the political organization will continue to 3:02:07.040 --> 3:02:09.880 be based on the plurality of states, and that I 3:02:10.000 --> 3:02:14.320 think demonstrates the limitations of this manifesto's imagination are configurable. 3:02:14.360 --> 3:02:18.880 This well, that's what happens when you have this clearly 3:02:19.000 --> 3:02:23.279 radical idea and you try to squeeze the radical idea 3:02:23.840 --> 3:02:29.320 into a fundamentally unradical and statistical idea as nation states. 3:02:32.000 --> 3:02:36.000 But let me not excessively editorialized. I'm just presenting this 3:02:36.200 --> 3:02:39.800 movement and what its proponents have been arguing. Right, according 3:02:39.840 --> 3:02:44.640 to their perspective, states and political institutions are considered legitimate 3:02:44.800 --> 3:02:50.120 only if they uphold principles such as common humanity, common sociality, individuation, 3:02:50.840 --> 3:02:56.240 and managed conflict. To me, that's wishful thinking. But I 3:02:56.400 --> 3:03:01.400 digress legitimate states, and it pains me to even say this. 3:03:01.680 --> 3:03:06.520 But again, just communicating, just communicating what the manifesto argues. 3:03:07.080 --> 3:03:11.240 The legitimate states extend rights beyond civil and political rights, 3:03:11.520 --> 3:03:16.720 encompass economic, social, cultural, and environmental rights. They ensure a 3:03:16.879 --> 3:03:20.640 minimum income for the poorest citizens, while also implemented a 3:03:20.800 --> 3:03:25.520 maximum income to prevent excessive wealth accumulation. The legitimate states 3:03:25.640 --> 3:03:29.360 maintain a balance between private, common, collective and public goods 3:03:29.760 --> 3:03:33.920 and promote associational activities within a global civil society. They 3:03:34.000 --> 3:03:37.640 view digital networks as cools, as tools for democratization and 3:03:37.760 --> 3:03:41.320 treat them as commons foster and openness, free access and 3:03:41.440 --> 3:03:49.000 partiality and sharing. And they also revive the tradition of 3:03:49.040 --> 3:03:53.560 public service and prioritize the preservation of existing common goods 3:03:54.080 --> 3:03:56.640 while promoting the developments of new common goods for the 3:03:56.680 --> 3:04:05.160 benefit of humanity. Again, it goes without saying I take 3:04:05.280 --> 3:04:08.120 issue with this investment in states. I think a lot 3:04:08.200 --> 3:04:12.440 of their goals are noble, if not if they were 3:04:12.520 --> 3:04:15.400 not so tied down with this investment in this state structure. 3:04:17.680 --> 3:04:21.920 Because from an anarchist perspective, many of these ideas are 3:04:21.920 --> 3:04:28.160 not compatible with the structure of a state. And even theoretically, 3:04:28.320 --> 3:04:32.560 even hypothetically, if a state would implement all these changes 3:04:33.800 --> 3:04:38.680 where people had full participerty involvement and decision making, where 3:04:38.959 --> 3:04:45.640 the where the hierarchies were flattened, and where everyone had 3:04:45.680 --> 3:04:48.200 free access and open access and their commons and all 3:04:48.240 --> 3:04:53.879 this laddida some anarchists, not every but some anarchists wouldn't 3:04:54.120 --> 3:04:59.560 even consider that to be a state anymore. But that's 3:04:59.600 --> 3:05:03.120 just getting the weeds of anarchist discourse and we're moving on. 3:05:04.600 --> 3:05:08.400 The third question that the Manifesto ask is an ecological question, 3:05:08.920 --> 3:05:12.960 which is what we may take from nature and which 3:05:13.040 --> 3:05:17.040 is what we must take from nature? Which is what 3:05:17.280 --> 3:05:21.640 we may take from nature and what we must give back? 3:05:23.200 --> 3:05:26.280 And the Manifesto asks us to consider that human beings 3:05:26.320 --> 3:05:29.640 should no longer see themselves as owners and masters of nature, 3:05:29.959 --> 3:05:33.920 but rather interconnected with it. Right to ensure ecological justice 3:05:34.000 --> 3:05:37.760 and preserve a well managed natural heritage for future generations, 3:05:38.200 --> 3:05:41.520 humans us establish a relationship with nature based on giving 3:05:41.640 --> 3:05:45.760 back as much or more than they take. The Manifesto 3:05:45.879 --> 3:05:49.120 argues that the level of material prosperity that can be 3:05:49.240 --> 3:05:53.080 sustainably extended to the entire planet is roughly comparable to 3:05:53.120 --> 3:05:56.120 the average wealth of the wealthiest countries in the nineteen seventies, 3:05:56.720 --> 3:05:59.760 and that wealthier nations must be the responsibility to reduce 3:05:59.800 --> 3:06:03.800 the demand on nature relative to nineteen seventy standards, even 3:06:03.840 --> 3:06:07.400 as they maintain their current quality of life. Priorities of 3:06:07.560 --> 3:06:11.600 this Manifesto include reducing to two emissions, emphasize and renewable 3:06:11.680 --> 3:06:16.120 energy sources over nuclear and fossil fuels, and shifting away 3:06:16.160 --> 3:06:20.760 from viewing animals as mare resources for industry. The principles 3:06:20.800 --> 3:06:25.400 of gift and interdependence should thus guide relationships with animals 3:06:25.520 --> 3:06:29.680 and the earth as a whole. Lastly, the first Manifesto 3:06:30.720 --> 3:06:33.280 leaves us with an economic question, which is how much 3:06:33.360 --> 3:06:36.640 material wealth we may reproduce and how should we go 3:06:36.760 --> 3:06:39.080 about producing it? If we had to remain true to 3:06:39.120 --> 3:06:43.440 the answers given to the moral, political, and ecological questions, 3:06:44.760 --> 3:06:48.520 Manifesto asks us to consider there's no proven connection between 3:06:48.640 --> 3:06:52.480 monetary or material wealth and happiness, which promotes the need 3:06:52.600 --> 3:06:57.000 then to explore alternative forms of prosperity beyond economic growth. 3:06:58.320 --> 3:07:00.680 As you can see early on, we're making those connections 3:07:00.760 --> 3:07:02.960 to the idea of de growth. More on that later, 3:07:04.160 --> 3:07:07.200 And so this cause for a plural economy that balances 3:07:07.280 --> 3:07:10.440 the market, the public sector, and social solidarity economy based 3:07:10.480 --> 3:07:14.760 on the nature of goods and services involved. Again their perspective, 3:07:14.959 --> 3:07:20.760 but while the markets and profitability are legitimate, they must 3:07:20.840 --> 3:07:26.520 align with principles of common humanity, social cohesion, and ecological considerations. 3:07:28.360 --> 3:07:33.000 And by addressing the issues of the financial economy such 3:07:33.040 --> 3:07:37.840 as renterrorism and speculation through strict regulation, oversight, market restrictions 3:07:37.879 --> 3:07:41.040 and elimination of tax events, humanity can tap into a 3:07:41.120 --> 3:07:45.080 broader spectrum of riches beyond economic and material wealth, including 3:07:45.120 --> 3:07:49.560 fulfillment derived from duty, solidarity, enjoyment, and creativity inferious domains, 3:07:50.879 --> 3:07:54.760 which of course highlights the importance of creativity and meaningful 3:07:54.800 --> 3:07:59.560 relationships with others as an essential component of a prosperous society, 3:08:00.120 --> 3:08:06.120 even if not materially or monetarily prosperous. The manifestor goes 3:08:06.160 --> 3:08:09.240 on to define confrivulism, the term that they use to 3:08:09.320 --> 3:08:13.520 describe all those elements and existing systems of belief that 3:08:13.680 --> 3:08:17.560 help us identify principles for enabling human beings simultaneously to 3:08:17.600 --> 3:08:20.879 compete and cooperate with one another with a shared concern 3:08:21.280 --> 3:08:24.199 to safeguard the world and the full knowledge the reformed 3:08:24.280 --> 3:08:28.160 part of that world and that its natural resources are finite. 3:08:30.879 --> 3:08:33.440 When it comes to convivialism, it's crucial for us to 3:08:33.480 --> 3:08:37.440 hold on certain principles that can guide us imagine conflict, 3:08:37.840 --> 3:08:41.560 prioritizeing cooperation while being mindful of the limitations posed by 3:08:41.640 --> 3:08:46.800 scarce resources, recognizing respect not to interviewpoints and doctrines, opening 3:08:46.879 --> 3:08:49.840 the door to engage in dialogue and praise to his perspectives, 3:08:49.920 --> 3:08:53.120 and being open to question it and growth. All of 3:08:53.200 --> 3:08:56.920 that this manifesto sees as essential to the idea of confibulism. 3:08:58.080 --> 3:09:02.760 It even goes on to propose convivialist policies, right, you know, 3:09:02.840 --> 3:09:08.760 the minimum maximum income, protecting natural resources through various reforms 3:09:08.920 --> 3:09:19.440 and regulations, tackling unemployments, promoting reduced working hours, supporting the 3:09:19.560 --> 3:09:23.400 growth of the Associationists economy. Of course, I feel that's 3:09:23.400 --> 3:09:29.960 where the manifesto falls short, But I do appreciate they 3:09:30.000 --> 3:09:32.680 had some of the ideas that it introduces or that 3:09:32.800 --> 3:09:37.400 it expounds upon. I mean, I'd appreciate all of the 3:09:37.600 --> 3:09:41.800 answers to the questions that itself that it raises. But 3:09:41.879 --> 3:09:45.120 I appreciated raising those questions, even if I might have 3:09:45.240 --> 3:09:50.480 slightly different answers to them. The thesis of this manifesto 3:09:50.600 --> 3:09:52.400 seems to be that a different kind of will is 3:09:52.440 --> 3:09:56.520 not just possible, but crucial and urgently necessary. I don't 3:09:56.680 --> 3:10:01.120 like that it doesn't call out capitalism sufficiently or really 3:10:01.200 --> 3:10:01.560 at all. 3:10:02.240 --> 3:10:04.600 Yeah, it seems to have an overly cozy relationship with 3:10:04.640 --> 3:10:05.440 the state, too. 3:10:05.440 --> 3:10:09.200 Which is yeah, yeah, greatest not cool. 3:10:09.600 --> 3:10:10.440 They do say. 3:10:11.840 --> 3:10:16.800 Quote, there will clearly be as many, perhaps conflicting permutations 3:10:16.840 --> 3:10:23.879 of convivialism as there are of Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, liberalism, socialism, communism, 3:10:23.920 --> 3:10:28.039 et cetera, not least because convivialism in no way invalidates 3:10:28.120 --> 3:10:33.840 these So fair enough, in a sense, I appreciate that 3:10:33.920 --> 3:10:38.880 they can accept that their particular interpretation is not the 3:10:38.959 --> 3:10:41.640 only one that there can be. I'm sure by this 3:10:41.800 --> 3:10:46.400 particular passage they mean that there will be socialist orientations 3:10:46.440 --> 3:10:51.199 of convivialism and liberal orientations of convivialism, and Christian orientations 3:10:51.200 --> 3:10:54.959 of convivialism and et cetera, because they don't see convivialism 3:10:55.080 --> 3:10:58.000 as incompatible with any of them. I think I might 3:10:58.080 --> 3:11:03.119 take some issue with I guess not refining contribualism further. 3:11:03.680 --> 3:11:08.400 I appreciate that they themselves didn't refine it, because you know, 3:11:08.440 --> 3:11:14.080 they're clearly quite liberal, but I think that contribualism as 3:11:14.080 --> 3:11:21.000 an idea is something at least we uh distilled further. 3:11:22.320 --> 3:11:25.760 Because when you have this sort of free for all, 3:11:27.280 --> 3:11:31.360 everybody and everything goes approach to the ideology, I think 3:11:31.400 --> 3:11:35.200 it opens up a lot of room for states and 3:11:35.360 --> 3:11:38.240 corporations and ngus to kind of slip in there and 3:11:38.400 --> 3:11:41.320 be like, oh, look at us, we are going to 3:11:41.440 --> 3:11:47.880 add confriviunism to our constitution and that kind of thing. 3:11:47.920 --> 3:11:51.120 It's like then they go and everyone applause and like wow, 3:11:52.200 --> 3:11:56.760 xyz government just added contribualism to their constitution. Three chairs 3:11:56.800 --> 3:11:57.039 for them. 3:11:57.080 --> 3:11:57.360 And then the. 3:11:57.400 --> 3:11:59.879 Government just continues doing what it usually was doing before 3:12:00.080 --> 3:12:02.080 it added convicuim to its constitution. 3:12:03.720 --> 3:12:03.880 You know. 3:12:03.959 --> 3:12:06.120 It's like with the whole I spoke about in my 3:12:06.520 --> 3:12:10.080 vere podcast episode. Yeah, it's kind of like a situation 3:12:10.280 --> 3:12:14.920 yasunni it t right. Ecadorian government was like, we are 3:12:15.000 --> 3:12:17.400 going to protect this forest. We're not going to drill 3:12:17.520 --> 3:12:20.520 for oil in this forest, even though it has a 3:12:20.600 --> 3:12:24.680 bunch of oil in this forest, over six billion dollars 3:12:24.720 --> 3:12:26.280 with oil in this forest. We're just going to ask 3:12:26.360 --> 3:12:29.320 the international community for like three point six billion of 3:12:29.480 --> 3:12:35.120 that oil, and once you'll pay that, we're not going 3:12:35.200 --> 3:12:36.920 to drill the oil. And we want to set this 3:12:37.080 --> 3:12:39.720 precedent for other countries to follow, and YadA YadA, and 3:12:39.840 --> 3:12:44.840 we added to our constitution and all our cash money. Right, 3:12:44.959 --> 3:12:49.480 but then they got like two hundred million dollars worth 3:12:49.520 --> 3:12:51.840 of pledges, and then they were like, actually, you know, 3:12:51.920 --> 3:12:53.520 we're still going to do it even though we didn't 3:12:53.520 --> 3:12:55.680 get all the money. And then related they're like, nah, 3:12:55.879 --> 3:12:57.680 we're not going to do it anymore. And then a 3:12:57.720 --> 3:13:00.520 couple of years after that they started drilling in the 3:13:01.400 --> 3:13:03.600 National Park, and a couple of years after that, yeah, 3:13:03.920 --> 3:13:06.800 they started drilling even for the even closer to indigenous 3:13:06.879 --> 3:13:10.200 territories within the park. So you know, that's like I 3:13:10.600 --> 3:13:15.880 caught up in the fluffy words of states and corporations. 3:13:15.240 --> 3:13:17.039 And yeah, there was a there's a there's a version 3:13:17.040 --> 3:13:19.000 of this that happen in Bolivia where they did like 3:13:19.040 --> 3:13:21.800 a very similar thing. And then within half a decade, uh, 3:13:22.280 --> 3:13:25.040 like riot police were storming the offices of like of 3:13:25.160 --> 3:13:27.400 one of the giant like indigious confederations. 3:13:27.760 --> 3:13:33.400 So it's you know, yeah, I mean keep in mind, 3:13:34.080 --> 3:13:36.360 a lot of what states do, a lot of politicians too, 3:13:36.520 --> 3:13:39.360 is just pr right, And I think a lot of 3:13:39.400 --> 3:13:41.400 people are able to recognize that when it's happened in 3:13:41.440 --> 3:13:47.039 their own country, but due to ignorance perhaps of other countries, 3:13:47.800 --> 3:13:49.600 they see a politician doing the same thing in another 3:13:49.640 --> 3:13:52.080 country and they're like, wow, why can't we be more 3:13:52.200 --> 3:13:55.199 like them? And it's like, well, yeah, it to be fair, 3:13:55.280 --> 3:13:57.800 you know, there are politicians and governments that are doing 3:13:57.920 --> 3:14:00.920 better than other politicians and governments, and I'm not gonna 3:14:01.000 --> 3:14:02.240 like blind my eye to that. 3:14:03.080 --> 3:14:03.160 But. 3:14:05.400 --> 3:14:08.000 Yeah, you know, at the end of the day, there's 3:14:08.040 --> 3:14:12.520 still politicians, there's still governments. They're still doing their pr 3:14:12.959 --> 3:14:15.520 putting out their best image, put on the best foot forward, 3:14:15.680 --> 3:14:18.720 to hold on to whatever poet they have. 3:14:20.360 --> 3:14:23.959 Yeah. Well, and with both Ecuador and Bolivia too, it's like, well, okay, 3:14:24.000 --> 3:14:26.240 if if you want your politicians to have pr like that, 3:14:26.520 --> 3:14:29.200 like you two can block every single road and your 3:14:29.240 --> 3:14:31.039 country start starving your capital out. 3:14:31.080 --> 3:14:31.160 Like. 3:14:35.320 --> 3:14:40.039 Yeah, yeah, the politicians do not descend from the heavens. 3:14:40.120 --> 3:14:44.080 They are the product of a combination of material conditions 3:14:44.120 --> 3:14:47.279 and social forces, so get better social forces. 3:14:48.640 --> 3:14:54.800 Exactly exactly, that's that's the that's how it elevates a 3:14:54.840 --> 3:14:57.959 pitch for anarchism. By the way, but I did say 3:14:58.000 --> 3:15:00.440 they were two manifestos, right, So what about the second 3:15:00.640 --> 3:15:06.760 manifesto right, Contributist Manifesto number two published by the Convivialist 3:15:06.879 --> 3:15:14.520 International in twenty twenty recent and they define Confiviualism as 3:15:14.600 --> 3:15:19.440 a comprehensive philosophy that encompasses humanist, civic and political principles 3:15:19.520 --> 3:15:22.360 aimed at foster and harmonia scooling systems in the modern era, 3:15:23.240 --> 3:15:26.960 emphasize and the importance of living together and outlining normative 3:15:27.000 --> 3:15:34.800 principles to guide that enteval second Manifesto of Convivialism emphasizes 3:15:34.840 --> 3:15:38.480 the need for a new political philosophy to challenge neoliberalism 3:15:38.560 --> 3:15:45.800 and address global issues. Pause. This idea of is something 3:15:45.840 --> 3:15:50.080 that you see a lot, particularly in that sort of 3:15:50.240 --> 3:15:57.200 engio space. Right, A lot of not radical organizations and 3:15:57.320 --> 3:16:02.879 movements will speak about challenging in newliberalism. And he could 3:16:03.000 --> 3:16:06.879 usually tell because they specify new liberalism, they don't say capitalism. 3:16:07.440 --> 3:16:10.840 They're not anti capitalists. They're just anti neoliberalism, which in 3:16:10.920 --> 3:16:13.560 itself is not u radical because new liberalism in itself 3:16:13.680 --> 3:16:17.320 is just a recent permutation of capitalism. 3:16:17.800 --> 3:16:21.840 Yeah, and I should point out, like they're as bad 3:16:21.879 --> 3:16:25.440 as neoliberalism is, like there are forms of capitalism that 3:16:25.480 --> 3:16:28.840 are worse than it. So yeah, yeah, you know, see 3:16:29.080 --> 3:16:34.880 see as evidence world War two. Uh yeah, yeah, just 3:16:34.959 --> 3:16:38.640 why I just wanted to put that on the record. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:16:38.760 --> 3:16:39.039 but just. 3:16:39.760 --> 3:16:44.240 Just for the sake of people's own ability to scrutinize 3:16:44.320 --> 3:16:49.760 information and scrutinized movements. It's an interesting trick of the 3:16:49.879 --> 3:16:53.960 language because by rallying against newliberalism, they're able to like 3:16:54.080 --> 3:16:56.600 bring in all of the anti capitalist people into the 3:16:56.680 --> 3:17:02.880 mix and draw from that crowd. But a lot of 3:17:02.920 --> 3:17:08.480 these movements are not themselves anti capitalists. And you know, 3:17:08.560 --> 3:17:11.760 if you want something more than a nicer capitalism, that 3:17:11.920 --> 3:17:14.280 is something to keep in mind. Even if you and 3:17:14.560 --> 3:17:16.600 even if you know you take part in the movement, 3:17:17.680 --> 3:17:20.720 nothing wrong with that, still something to keep in mind. 3:17:22.680 --> 3:17:25.480 So the Second Manifesto, it also highlights the interconnectedness of 3:17:25.560 --> 3:17:30.600 young people's concerns about climate change and environmental degradation. Talks 3:17:30.600 --> 3:17:33.360 about the struggles of those seeking freedom from dictatorships or 3:17:33.440 --> 3:17:38.000 those being forced to migrate, and it aims to offer 3:17:38.120 --> 3:17:41.560 an alternative vision for a post neoliberal world where promoting 3:17:41.720 --> 3:17:48.040 shared values and a sense of agency. Furious intellectuals, activists, 3:17:48.120 --> 3:17:51.240 rights and artists so all committed to this collective project 3:17:51.680 --> 3:17:54.760 with the aim of creating this globally shared vision for 3:17:54.800 --> 3:18:02.240 the future that is more inclusive and more participatory. The manifesto, 3:18:02.320 --> 3:18:09.000 the second manifesto, like the first one, talks about the 3:18:09.560 --> 3:18:13.400 post World War two growth in principles like human rights 3:18:14.800 --> 3:18:18.280 and the shift in capitalism towards speculative and rent air practices. 3:18:19.240 --> 3:18:24.600 Talks about the decline of liberal democracies and the rise 3:18:24.840 --> 3:18:30.600 of illiberal democriturs, and it speaks about resentment growing from 3:18:30.720 --> 3:18:39.640 pastical domination and radical movements including Al Qaeda, reflecting that animosity. Again, 3:18:39.720 --> 3:18:43.720 like the previous manifesto, talks about ecological threats like global 3:18:43.760 --> 3:18:50.120 warming and air pollution, oceanic pollution and accumulation of plastic waste, 3:18:50.240 --> 3:18:57.040 nuclear disasters, weekends, ecosystems rise and employment, job displacement, wealth inequality, 3:18:58.240 --> 3:19:02.600 lack of regulation for transnational company is, political fragmentation, and terrorism. 3:19:03.800 --> 3:19:08.760 All that fun stuff and this time the second Manifesto 3:19:10.040 --> 3:19:15.400 outlines five principles to form the basis of policies or 3:19:15.480 --> 3:19:24.040 ethics or organizational actions. Right common naturality, common humanity, common sociality, 3:19:24.920 --> 3:19:32.200 legitimate individuation, and creative opposition. These principles emphasize one the 3:19:32.280 --> 3:19:37.160 interconnectedness of humans with nature to the importance of respecting 3:19:37.200 --> 3:19:41.200 the shared humanity of all individuals, three the value of 3:19:41.320 --> 3:19:45.280 social relationships for the need for individuals to develop the 3:19:45.320 --> 3:19:49.760 individuality or respecting others, and five the recognition of peaceful 3:19:49.920 --> 3:19:54.680 rivalry for the common good. These principles are meant to 3:19:54.720 --> 3:20:02.560 be guided by the imperative of hubrist control, which promotes 3:20:02.760 --> 3:20:07.560 cooperation and prevents the desire for power and excess. The 3:20:07.680 --> 3:20:10.480 manifesto all symphasizes the importance of balance and these principles 3:20:10.520 --> 3:20:15.440 to avoid their potential negative consequences. One of the things 3:20:15.480 --> 3:20:19.320 that the Manifesto is really trying to get at in particular, 3:20:19.520 --> 3:20:24.040 and the reason that it even establishes this imperative for 3:20:24.200 --> 3:20:30.960 hubrist control, is because it argues that ideologies focus primarily 3:20:31.000 --> 3:20:34.680 on satisfying material needs and overlook the crucial role of 3:20:34.760 --> 3:20:39.000 recognition and desire, and that by reducing politics of the 3:20:39.120 --> 3:20:43.200 fulfillment of needs. Ideologies fail to address the problem of 3:20:43.400 --> 3:20:46.960 limiting the desire for power and control. To me, it 3:20:47.080 --> 3:20:50.400 just seems like the people who wrote this manifesto aren't 3:20:50.400 --> 3:20:58.720 familiar with anarchism and anarchism's centuries long confrontation with power, 3:20:58.920 --> 3:21:03.280 control and the desire for it that has altered the 3:21:03.400 --> 3:21:09.480 course of very various human societies. Right I digress. Manifestoo 3:21:09.520 --> 3:21:14.360 instead points to religions as playing the historical role of 3:21:14.520 --> 3:21:21.720 trying to curb our desire for power and control. That 3:21:21.920 --> 3:21:24.760 seems to me like a very poor argument considering the 3:21:24.840 --> 3:21:29.120 history of religion. But the point that the manifestoro is 3:21:29.120 --> 3:21:32.600 trying to make is that modern democratic discourses struggle to 3:21:32.680 --> 3:21:37.080 restrain limitless desire and often reproduce the humors that they 3:21:37.120 --> 3:21:42.519 aim to combat, and so the role of a contributist 3:21:42.600 --> 3:21:47.440 movement then should be in part on persuading individuals to 3:21:47.520 --> 3:21:54.440 renounce the desire for dominance and reinforce the principles of 3:21:54.520 --> 3:22:03.760 common humanity, sociality, naturality in legitimate interviewation and create opposition. Again, 3:22:04.000 --> 3:22:06.440 I don't think that the direction people are taking conviviulalism 3:22:06.560 --> 3:22:08.680 is rotically enough, because I think it leaves room for 3:22:08.720 --> 3:22:12.000 it to fall into existing structures. I mean, the manifest 3:22:12.080 --> 3:22:16.520 even talks about creating a convivialist party to reignite hopen 3:22:16.600 --> 3:22:17.600 liberal democracy. 3:22:18.240 --> 3:22:20.640 Yeah, and I also want to just point out the 3:22:20.760 --> 3:22:21.240 sort of like. 3:22:23.200 --> 3:22:23.760 Just how. 3:22:25.879 --> 3:22:29.760 How weak of a position it is to you know, 3:22:30.160 --> 3:22:33.359 have one of your goals be just to convince individual 3:22:33.480 --> 3:22:36.960 people to want less power. Like I think that's just 3:22:38.240 --> 3:22:41.879 just sort of boldly anti structural as a present prescription. 3:22:43.640 --> 3:22:47.840 Yeah, but I mean, I guess that's something that I've 3:22:47.879 --> 3:22:53.960 come to expect from Sid millieuse, right, a lack of 3:22:54.080 --> 3:23:00.760 engagement with structural domination and how struct just inform how 3:23:00.879 --> 3:23:07.760 individuals behave you know, like, yes, individuals act within structures, 3:23:07.879 --> 3:23:11.640 but I think people have asked your underestimate structural incentives, 3:23:11.959 --> 3:23:15.200 Like it's not just about oh, if you get rid 3:23:15.240 --> 3:23:17.280 of this bad person from a position of power, but 3:23:17.440 --> 3:23:19.160 this good person in a position of power, and everything 3:23:19.160 --> 3:23:23.680 will be hunky dory. Like nah, there's still there's still 3:23:23.800 --> 3:23:26.160 like you still haven't confronted the way that that structure, 3:23:26.680 --> 3:23:32.280 that position incentivizes certain behavior. But like I said before, 3:23:32.600 --> 3:23:35.080 I'm an anarchist. I take what I like, I leave 3:23:35.120 --> 3:23:37.760 what I don't They're also say, a manifest with the 3:23:37.840 --> 3:23:42.520 confivilism belongs to nobody. So I've decided that, you know, 3:23:42.600 --> 3:23:44.960 my version of confiviulism is not going to be this 3:23:46.640 --> 3:23:54.080 water down, watercress salad kind of pathy, weak limpristed take on, 3:23:55.200 --> 3:24:02.720 you know, world alter and structural change. Lastly, I didn't 3:24:02.720 --> 3:24:05.640 want to touch on because I could say I would. 3:24:06.800 --> 3:24:09.080 The significant role that conviviality is played in the de 3:24:09.240 --> 3:24:13.800 growth movement, particularly highlighted in texts like The Growth of 3:24:13.959 --> 3:24:20.720 Vocabulary for a New Era inspired by Evan's ideas conviviality 3:24:20.760 --> 3:24:23.360 and the growth has referred to me nature society that 3:24:23.560 --> 3:24:28.720 values joyful sobriety, responsible consumption, and the use of limited 3:24:28.760 --> 3:24:33.480 tools that are emmanspiratory and responsor to human needs. The 3:24:33.600 --> 3:24:37.400 ideas that Ivan outlined and tools of conviviality which I 3:24:37.440 --> 3:24:39.440 spoke on in the first part of this two parter 3:24:41.560 --> 3:24:43.920 is considered part of the intellectual roots of the growth 3:24:44.000 --> 3:24:48.160 as an idea itself, and conviviality is often discussed in 3:24:48.280 --> 3:24:55.480 relation to technologies, including digital technologies, and how technology is 3:24:55.560 --> 3:25:01.800 suitable to a de growth society must be convivial. One 3:25:01.879 --> 3:25:08.039 particular tool has been developed for self assessment political education 3:25:08.160 --> 3:25:10.880 and researcher and I with confivial principles, and that is 3:25:10.959 --> 3:25:17.160 the matrix for contrivial technology or MCT, and the matrix 3:25:17.240 --> 3:25:22.600 for convivial technology is to go through a very basic definition, 3:25:26.760 --> 3:25:31.640 a normative schema that Forster's discussion concerning de growth technologies 3:25:32.160 --> 3:25:37.480 in context of political education them city is meant first 3:25:37.640 --> 3:25:46.959 to reflect on the dimensions of the materials we use 3:25:47.000 --> 3:25:50.000 in technology is and how we produce the technologies, how 3:25:50.080 --> 3:25:53.480 we use the technologies, how technologies fit into the infrastructure, 3:25:54.600 --> 3:26:04.400 how accessible they are, how interactive they are with the environment, 3:26:05.040 --> 3:26:11.120 how adaptable they are and change in circumstances, and much more, 3:26:11.760 --> 3:26:16.520 how appropriate they are and much more. But beyond the MSCT, 3:26:16.800 --> 3:26:18.840 conviviality is are also being used in the de growth 3:26:18.920 --> 3:26:25.600 space to describe public spaces, goods, conservation movements, and even humans. 3:26:25.800 --> 3:26:31.280 Within the growth literature, transitioning to a convivial society is 3:26:31.320 --> 3:26:34.320 considered to be one of the core objectives of the 3:26:34.400 --> 3:26:37.240 de growth movement, one of the core shifts that needs 3:26:37.240 --> 3:26:42.520 to take place us for us to de grow as 3:26:43.000 --> 3:26:46.400 a society. And so that's all in short of it. 3:26:47.480 --> 3:26:53.320 The convivialist manifesto convivialism and contriviality, as ideas how they've 3:26:54.120 --> 3:26:57.359 changed and been adapted, and how people have been building 3:26:57.520 --> 3:27:02.359 on the ideas therein in the sphere of philosophy and politics, 3:27:02.760 --> 3:27:07.720 education and technology and more food for thought. I hope 3:27:07.720 --> 3:27:12.600 you appreciated this briefly exploration, as I like to say 3:27:12.600 --> 3:27:15.360 at the end of my videos, and I consider it 3:27:15.440 --> 3:27:19.960 particularly aptaining the context of conviviality and convivial technology. Is 3:27:20.920 --> 3:27:23.640 all power to all the people. Once again, you could 3:27:23.800 --> 3:27:27.880 find me Andrew on YouTube dot com slash andeurism and 3:27:28.000 --> 3:27:31.400 support me on feature dot com slash saying true and 3:27:32.640 --> 3:27:37.800 as usual this has been It could happen here, where 3:27:38.200 --> 3:27:40.879 things happen, we talk about stuff. Peace. 3:27:44.240 --> 3:27:47.360 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:27:47.480 --> 3:27:49.320 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:27:49.959 --> 3:27:52.280 It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:27:52.560 --> 3:27:55.199 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:27:55.240 --> 3:27:57.440 cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 3:27:57.520 --> 3:28:01.360 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or every listen to podcasts. You 3:28:01.440 --> 3:28:03.840 can find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly 3:28:04.160 --> 3:28:06.520 at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. 3:28:06.720 --> 3:28:07.520 Thanks for listening,