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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. Oh, it could happen

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Speaker 1: here is the podcast that you're listening to right now.

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Speaker 1: And while we normally talk about it could happening here,

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Speaker 1: if you've been living in France recently, then some of

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Speaker 1: it has been happening to you. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's a bad introduction. We're talking about the riots that

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Speaker 1: have recently convulsed large chunks of both European France and

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Speaker 1: some of their overseas territories. So we're gonna be chatting

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Speaker 1: about that. I've seen a lot of disinfo. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of like people flipping out about guns and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of bad information, people blaming

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Speaker 1: it on like Ukrainian weapons sneaking over all that's bullshit.

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Speaker 1: But there's a real fascinating history here and the riots

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Speaker 1: as much as people specific bad actors have attempted to

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Speaker 1: make them into like some new and horrifying thing, It's

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Speaker 1: not just like a oh France b riot and thing.

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Speaker 1: There's like there's like a history.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: That's that's pretty clear. That explains like why this this

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Speaker 1: happened in France this time, why it happened in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five, had happened in what the late eighties?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, seven was I think the other big one in

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Speaker 3: this company happening yea decades.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about all of that. Yeah. So so Mia,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you take take take the lead here

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Speaker 1: and I'll chime in pr in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So okay, I guess we should we should basically

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Speaker 3: briefly talk about, like before we go into this stree,

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Speaker 3: like what actually this is so well, I guess it'll

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Speaker 3: be two weeks ago when when the goes up, a

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Speaker 3: cop was did like a traffic stop of this kid

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Speaker 3: in a car and they just put the put a

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Speaker 3: gun through the window and shot him. It's really bad.

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Speaker 3: There's video of it. If for some reason you want

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Speaker 3: to see a cop sticking a gun in a car

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Speaker 3: and shooting a seventeen year old. It's really bad. This

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Speaker 3: is kicked off, like I it's it's okay. It's always

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Speaker 3: difficult to like measure how intense a riot is. When

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Speaker 3: it started, people were I saw people saying it was

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Speaker 3: like more intense than like the two thousand and five one.

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Speaker 3: This is like, you know, we've talked a lot about

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Speaker 3: French riding on the show. These specific kinds of riots

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Speaker 3: are like by far the largest and most intense like

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Speaker 3: kinds of riots that happened in France. This is like

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Speaker 3: a significant escalation from everything that's been happening, even in

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Speaker 3: the last sort of like yeah, seven years, which had

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Speaker 3: been you know, there have been a lot of riots

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Speaker 3: in France recently. These are by far the most intense

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Speaker 3: in the time I've been writing this. The police killed

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Speaker 3: a second person by okay, so I'm going to give

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Speaker 3: my account of what I think happens. The French police

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Speaker 3: are going on like, oh, who can say how this

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Speaker 3: person was hit by a projectile? But as best I

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Speaker 3: can tell, they shot a guy in the chest with

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Speaker 3: a flashball, which is a flashball is like it's effectively

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Speaker 3: a grenade launcher that shoots flash bang grenades. Now it's

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Speaker 3: supposed to be like a it's a quote unquote less

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Speaker 3: lethal munition. But the thing about less lethal munitions is

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Speaker 3: that I have to shoot people directly with him they die,

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Speaker 3: And they just fucking killed this guy.

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Speaker 1: They're less lethal because they are not meant to be

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Speaker 1: shot at people. They're meant to have a dispersal effect

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Speaker 1: when shot near people. If you shoot people with them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're very much lethal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we talked about in the last episode

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Speaker 3: that I did about this, there was another guy who

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Speaker 3: thankfully has regained consciousness but was in a coma for

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Speaker 3: several months because he was also shot by I think

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Speaker 3: he was shot by a maybe I forget I should

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Speaker 3: have actually looked before I did this, but he was

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Speaker 3: shot by like a similar less lethal munition, and he

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Speaker 3: thankfully has survived. This guy did not like they just

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Speaker 3: killed him. The reporting about it has been terrible, Like

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Speaker 3: the Guardian headlines said man struck by man struck by

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Speaker 3: projectile let protests, which again, this guy was shot by

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Speaker 3: the cops like directly into his chest with one of

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Speaker 3: these weapons. So it's been really bad. And you know,

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Speaker 3: because so again understanding of what's happening here to I

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Speaker 3: want to go through this. There are sort of like

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Speaker 3: four broad types of people who rioted France. So okay,

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Speaker 3: so the first kind of writer, I think is the

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Speaker 3: one where people are like maybe most familiar with, which

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Speaker 3: is like the French far left like riots a lot.

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Speaker 3: This is mostly anarchists some other people, and that's like

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Speaker 3: a kind of standard Parisian riot will be these people rioting,

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Speaker 3: you know, which we talked a bit about sort of

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Speaker 3: the development of the Black bloc in France, and in

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Speaker 3: the last episode we did about this. There's you know,

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Speaker 3: there's also sort of like more mainstream, mainstream left, like

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Speaker 3: trade union groups who will have giant marches and those

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Speaker 3: also sometimes turn into riots because they get attacked by

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Speaker 3: the police and stuff like that. And those ones tend

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Speaker 3: to be larger, like the the trade union ones, have

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Speaker 3: more people, but tend to be less riety. There's the

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Speaker 3: Jean or the yellow vests, who are mostly people from

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Speaker 3: rural areas who either sort of like do roadblocks in

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Speaker 3: rural areas or they come into cities and do marches

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Speaker 3: and riots and they riot pretty intensely. And these three

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Speaker 3: groups have started to be, you know, part of what

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Speaker 3: we've been seeing in the pension, like reform protests and

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Speaker 3: like riots have been these groups were starting to work together.

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Speaker 3: But there's another group of people in France who riot,

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Speaker 3: who are the residents of the bon Luis. I that's

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Speaker 3: not how you pronounce it, God damn it. Okay. Before, before,

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Speaker 3: before I did this, I looked at how you pronounce

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Speaker 3: it and have now forgotten. It's bond lie that that's

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Speaker 3: how you well, okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna for any advice.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, like I have to say this word like forty,

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Speaker 3: I can't pronounce French words without doing the which is

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Speaker 3: I know, like I'm a child of the post.

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Speaker 1: Nine to eleven era. It's written into my dna. I

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Speaker 1: can't help it. I'm sorry you guys were right about

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Speaker 1: that war, but I still it's still it's still like

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Speaker 1: it seared into me as if with a laser cutter.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not going to try to pronounce it.

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Speaker 3: My my excuse is I'm holding a grudge from that

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Speaker 3: time they owned a bunch of Shanghai for like a

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Speaker 3: bunch of years.

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Speaker 1: So's there's actually many fine reasons to insult the French,

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Speaker 1: and they're just all things you can go after every

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Speaker 1: other powerful white country that ever exists. Yeah, or other

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Speaker 1: country for that matter. I mean, France is pretty classic

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Speaker 1: classic colonialism in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 3: Yeah we are, Oh boy, are we gonna be getting

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Speaker 3: into that? Actually that that's that's a good you know,

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Speaker 3: a good jumping off by for who these people are.

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Speaker 3: So the bun you So then I might just say

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Speaker 3: suburb because I I can't do this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, it's it's the French word for suburbs. Suburbs

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Speaker 1: in France are different like in the United States, the

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Speaker 1: sub suburbs have been up until at least pretty recently,

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Speaker 1: fairly reactionary, like.

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Speaker 3: What you might call it, uh white light.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of white conservatives lived in

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Speaker 1: the burbs. It was kind of like one of the

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Speaker 1: reliable areas for Republican votes and stuff. In France, Like

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Speaker 1: upper income people people with more money are a lot

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Speaker 1: more frequently living near the center of town and the

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Speaker 1: suburbs a lot of which were like built specifically for

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Speaker 1: like communities of people from from French overseas population who

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Speaker 1: were moving to the country. Like they set up like

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Speaker 1: public housing and stuff for them. I think the under

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Speaker 1: the idea was that if you like moved people over

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Speaker 1: in communities into these neighborhoods, it might make integration and

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Speaker 1: stuff easier. There's a lot of reasons why this this

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Speaker 1: didn't work that I'm I'm, you know, not an expert on,

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Speaker 1: but like, there were a lot of problematic aspects of

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Speaker 1: the execution, including the attitude among the attitude that goes

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Speaker 1: back pretty far among a lot of French folks that like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, a positive thing is if they just kind

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Speaker 1: of become French and uh, drop any other aspects of

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Speaker 1: their of their heritage and anyway whatever. It's a whole thing.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, we're gonna work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when we talk about suburbs in France, we are

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Speaker 1: not talking about like areas where upper middle class people

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Speaker 1: bought giant houses, right, Like, that's not what they are.

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Speaker 3: These are These are very like they're not they're not

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Speaker 3: exactly the same as like American housing projects, but they're

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Speaker 3: much closer to that than they are like the you know,

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Speaker 3: the sort of American white flight stuff. Yes, and the

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Speaker 3: people who live there. There are some white people, like

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Speaker 3: white French people who live there, but there's also a

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Speaker 3: lot of French people who are like either like pretty

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Speaker 3: some of them are pretty recent immigrants. Uh, there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of people from Algeria, like specifically. And the way

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Speaker 3: that like the French understand this basically it is like

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Speaker 3: all these people are like black and Buslim and like that,

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Speaker 3: you know, Okay, the French are very racist like and

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Speaker 3: and and this is the thing that like I was

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Speaker 3: in academia for a little bit, right, Like I I

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Speaker 3: like thought I understood the like average level of racism

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Speaker 3: of an academic. Holy fucking shit, Oh my god, I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna I'm gonna quote for something about the suburbs like that.

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Speaker 3: That's from a piece. I'm gonna talk about pieces a

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Speaker 3: little bit because I think it's a really interesting way

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Speaker 3: of thinking about like what the attitude in front in front,

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Speaker 3: like France is. So this is about the bondlier. The

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Speaker 3: French word for suburb is bondlie, a word derived from

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Speaker 3: bonnier mite a bond that is to exclude or banish.

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Speaker 3: And this is the thing. This is from a a

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Speaker 3: an article called the French Autumn Riots twosand and five

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Speaker 3: and the Crisis of Republican Integration. And this is a

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Speaker 3: really interesting piece because like half of it is like

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Speaker 3: pretty reasonable sort of like analysis of how the left

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Speaker 3: sort of just like failed and portrayed these people. And

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Speaker 3: then the other half of it is them talking about

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Speaker 3: how like like Muslim people and like people from like

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Speaker 3: North Africa have like inherently patriarchal, like reactionary family structures

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Speaker 3: and that because of this they can't be like integrated

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Speaker 3: to French society. And I'm like, what the f luck Like,

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Speaker 3: this is just a random academic and he just like

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Speaker 3: sounds like a stormfront guy. It's it's it's fucking wild.

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Speaker 3: So I want to talk a bit about how how

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Speaker 3: these things came to be because I think it gets

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Speaker 3: to sort of like you know, what what what what

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Speaker 3: what these places actually are and why these people are

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Speaker 3: writing and to do this for you to go back

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Speaker 3: to the French conquest of Algeria. So all right, so

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Speaker 3: so the French government.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like yeah, it's it's second maybe to the

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Speaker 1: Germans in terms of like the brutality of the conquest.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, like that's it's kind of a they're both

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Speaker 1: so horrific. It's kind of pointless to be like which

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Speaker 1: of these is words. These are both like genocides that

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Speaker 1: large chunks of the world just decided to pretend it

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Speaker 1: didn't happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, the thing with the French version of it

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Speaker 3: is because it's the French, it's like like the actual end,

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Speaker 3: the French political end of it is basically like a

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Speaker 3: tragic comedy. So I'm gonna tell the story.

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Speaker 1: It's the result of incompetence, and I mean we talk

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Speaker 1: about this in our Napoleon the third episodes behind yeahs.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah. So, like like the official causes ballet

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Speaker 3: for the French of this war is that the French

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Speaker 3: took out all these grain loans under like the Directory,

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Speaker 3: and then like under Napoleon from the Algerian government. The

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Speaker 3: government was like, hey, are you ever paying this back?

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Speaker 3: And the French were just like no. So this ended

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Speaker 3: in like a tiff where the governor of Algeria hit

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Speaker 3: the French ambassador with the flyswater and this this led

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Speaker 3: to the French monarchy at this point is led by

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Speaker 3: his guy named Charles the Tenth, who's Mike Duncan calls him,

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Speaker 3: one quote, one of the great idiots of history, and

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Speaker 3: he's like about to get overthrown. So he's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna invade Algeria and this is going

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Speaker 3: to like distract everyone from the fact that everyone hates

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Speaker 3: me and they're gonna overthrow me. And this doesn't work, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: so the French like conquer Algeria, but Charles Otant is

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Speaker 3: overthrown literally three weeks after this finishes. But the sort

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Speaker 3: of crucial thing here is that like the successive French

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Speaker 3: governments keep control of Algeria and they you know this

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Speaker 3: this is like one of the places where there's sort

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Speaker 3: of like modern French racism emerges from is there there's

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Speaker 3: this you know, the whole invasion is wrapped up in.

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Speaker 4: This like.

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Speaker 3: Monumental layer of racism that's about like, you know, we're

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Speaker 3: gonna go we're gonna free Algeria from quote like oriental despotism.

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Speaker 3: This is like a civilizing mission and we're gonna let

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Speaker 3: you know, and this is like this is this is

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Speaker 3: the stuff that you know, if you've been if you've

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Speaker 3: seen any like French social media posts about this like

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Speaker 3: now right, like this is the kind of racism they

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Speaker 3: still do, which is they like they consider Islam like

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Speaker 3: a backwards culture. It easy to be like integrated into

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Speaker 3: French republicanism, and you know, this is yeah, this specific

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Speaker 3: kind of French racism is very very old. You also

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Speaker 3: briefly mentioned we're gonna mostly talk about Ageria here because

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Speaker 3: like a lot of the people who end up living

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Speaker 3: in the suburbs are Algerian. But like the French had

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Speaker 3: a whole empire, they conquered a bunch of parts of

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Speaker 3: like a bunch of Western Africa they you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was also it's worth noting a lot

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Speaker 1: of it was conquered very frequently, very recently, Like it

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Speaker 1: was only in the late eighteen hundreds, I think that

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Speaker 1: they solidified their control over Algeria. It was kind of

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Speaker 1: right in the same period, all just kind of directly

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Speaker 1: ahead of the Franco Prussian War that they took a

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Speaker 1: lot of Indo China, Like this was they were kind

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Speaker 1: of later to having huge overseas possessions, but unlike the Germans,

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Speaker 1: they made up for it in terms of the breadth

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Speaker 1: of their acquisitions. If you can't call it.

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Speaker 3: That, it gets it gets yeah freaking well. Although the

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Speaker 3: one thing I think it's interesting about this is like Algeria,

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Speaker 3: the Fresh conquer Algeria after they've lost Haiti, which is

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Speaker 3: like a very interesting sort of like thing here, but like,

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Speaker 3: you know, but one of the things that this gets

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Speaker 3: to is that like the French state, you know, like

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Speaker 3: literally did doesn't like it doesn't matter like who like

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Speaker 3: in what period of time in French clobal history. You

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Speaker 3: get to the straight is just the the French state

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Speaker 3: is just structurally anti black, like it is so unfathomably racist.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the way this sort of plays out

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Speaker 3: in Algeria, right is like they hold on to Algeria

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Speaker 3: for one hundred and thirty years. But one of the

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Speaker 3: sort of products of this, right is that, okay, so,

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Speaker 3: like Algeria is now part of just like the French

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Speaker 3: Empire effectively, right, and this means that over the over

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Speaker 3: the sort of decades, the French government starts like importing

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Speaker 3: Algerian like workers into France because okay, so one of

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Speaker 3: the the French carry out basically like a series of

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Speaker 3: genocidal campaigns where they just like like progressive different French

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Speaker 3: regimes like steal more and more of the land that

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Speaker 3: anyone ever in Algeria had until you get to a

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Speaker 3: point where Algeria is just effectively a French settler colony,

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Speaker 3: and so Okay, so they they've displaced all these people

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Speaker 3: and they start, you know, recruiting them to go work

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Speaker 3: in France. But this this becomes a huge problem for

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Speaker 3: the French state because you know, now they have a

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Speaker 3: bunch of colonized people in France who they need to

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Speaker 3: like keep colonized. And in order to do this, you

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Speaker 3: get like, you know, you get Fucoast boomerang, right where

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Speaker 3: you have these French police that are trained in Algeria

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Speaker 3: who are used like against Algerians in France. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I've said that was like it's not just that it's

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Speaker 3: used against Algerians, right, It's used against like people from

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Speaker 3: all over the sort of French empire, from like northwest Africa,

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Speaker 3: even people who were from Haiti who like wound up

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Speaker 3: in France. But this comes to a head in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty one when there's just one of the weirder parts

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Speaker 3: of French history is there's like a second coup attempt

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Speaker 3: where all of these officers, these like these French officers

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Speaker 3: in Algeria are like terrified the French people had voted

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Speaker 3: to like that could have led to Algerians getting the

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Speaker 3: ability to like vote over like self rule. Right, and

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Speaker 3: the French like colonial officers in Algeria go nuts over

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Speaker 3: this and they try to overthrow the government and it fails.

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Speaker 3: But the result of this is that Degaul gets like

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Speaker 3: dictatorial powers in France for like five months, and in

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Speaker 3: October of that year, the Algerian National Liberation Front, which

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Speaker 3: is like the you know, this is like the giant

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Speaker 3: sort of movements of the like franchise of the Augeri

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Speaker 3: anticlonial move But like they have this giant protest in

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Speaker 3: Paris and the police just start shooting them. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is this is this is this is you know,

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Speaker 3: like this is not a riot, right, like this is

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Speaker 3: this is just like they have a giant piece of march,

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Speaker 3: the police start just killing them. They kill several hundred

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Speaker 3: Augurian protesters. Uh, they throw their corpses into the Seine.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to read this quote from the BBC. One

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Speaker 3: photo captured the chilling sentiment of the time, showing graffiti

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Speaker 3: scrawled along a section of the Sin's embarkment saying, here

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Speaker 3: we drown Algerians. And they kill like at least two

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Speaker 3: hundred people, probably more than that. They are like they're

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Speaker 3: throwing like children into the river. To try to drown them.

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Speaker 3: It is fucking awful. And the French government, like they

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Speaker 3: deny that this happened for decades. The first this massacre

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Speaker 3: is in nineteen sixty one, right, the first the first

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Speaker 3: like French prime minister to are French president to admit

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Speaker 3: that this happened. Did it in like it was I

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Speaker 3: think it was. I think it was twenty eleven. It

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Speaker 3: was fifty years later that the first French politician like

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Speaker 3: admitted they did it, And the government has still never

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Speaker 3: apologized for this. So these are this is what the

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Speaker 3: French police are, right, Like they are These people they

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Speaker 3: are you know, they're the people who like a bunch

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Speaker 3: of Algerians did a protest for independence and they killed

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Speaker 3: they like theyre they threw their children's corpses into a river.

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Speaker 3: And this is the sort of long rage backdrop of

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Speaker 3: like everything that's happening in modern France like today, right

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Speaker 3: is the fact that like France was an empire still

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Speaker 3: like is in a lot of ways an empire, and

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Speaker 3: their police are just like unfathomably violent and racist.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think I might say, like if

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Speaker 1: you're American, pretty fath mobly violent race.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but but yeah.

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Speaker 1: Like it is, it is. Yeah, I think that's a

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Speaker 1: fair Yeah.

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Speaker 3: If there was ever a reasonable society on earth that

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Speaker 3: people could live in, it would be very easy to

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Speaker 3: go this is the most racist thing you've ever seen.

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Speaker 3: But unfortunately we all live in hell world, and you know,

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Speaker 3: so our metrics are like is like have the Brazilian

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Speaker 3: police killed more people per capitive in the American police?

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Speaker 1: Again, it's one of these like we don't need to

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Speaker 1: litigate this, Like, I think the point is that when

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Speaker 1: when people kind of like flip out over these images

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Speaker 1: of buildings being lit on fire and shit getting broken

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Speaker 1: and you know, people shooting out cameras or even like

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Speaker 1: beating folks you know in the street as part of

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Speaker 1: a riot and freak out about you know, how the

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Speaker 1: place has gone to hell. Like violence that exceeds that

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Speaker 1: by by many factors, has been like the norm for

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Speaker 1: segments of French society going back as long as the

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Speaker 1: United States has existed. So you know, like the the

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Speaker 1: the ugliness that you see in the moment of the

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Speaker 1: riot is not like it like focusing on that and

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Speaker 1: ignoring what what's caused it, Like why people have been

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Speaker 1: like reached a pitch where they're doing stuff like that

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Speaker 1: is kind of an error, an error at least in

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Speaker 1: like historical analysis, and I think also an error in

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Speaker 1: terms of like the severity of what we're looking at,

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Speaker 1: Like none of like all of the ugly shit that's happened,

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Speaker 1: because at least one person was killed by rioters and

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Speaker 1: all this, but like all of the ugliness of this

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Speaker 1: current set of riots doesn't compare to one boat sinking

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Speaker 1: in the Mediterranean. Yeah, like, and that those things are

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Speaker 1: very much tied together. You know, France has had a

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Speaker 1: significant role in why northern Africa is the way it

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Speaker 1: is right now, and why large chunks of like the

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Speaker 1: that continent have endured waves of successive starvation, famine, death war. Like,

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Speaker 1: Like I want to I want to, like I want

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Speaker 1: to just briefly talk about Vietnam for a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because sure, I think something that like people don't really

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Speaker 1: understand is.

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Speaker 3: That, like okay, so right, like both in the thirties

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Speaker 3: in Vietnam and sort of through World War two, like

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Speaker 3: huge portions of the country were starving, and they were

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Speaker 3: starving because the French had completely fucked their economy and

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Speaker 3: was like was taking all of the food and was

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Speaker 3: taking all of the resources and like you know, like

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Speaker 3: like that's you know, that's a big part of the

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Speaker 3: reason why the original sort of like war in Vietnam

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Speaker 3: that the French fight happens, right, So it's like it's

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Speaker 3: why people like drive them out, is that there are

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Speaker 3: like just innumerable people who just fucking starve and die

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Speaker 3: because the French colis which just like fuck you, and

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Speaker 3: you know, like they the French Empire. It doesn't get

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Speaker 3: as much attention as like the British or the Spanish

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Speaker 3: or like the Americans, but it was like incomprehensibly inhuman

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Speaker 3: in terms of just like the shit that they did

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Speaker 3: and fuck them. They lost yen been food, they'll lose again.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think we should note when it comes

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Speaker 1: to like the violence of the French police, when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about how they are very American and the way

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Speaker 1: they do violence that is reflected in the statistics the

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Speaker 1: French police or the deadliest police force in continental Europe.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Part of why is that recent law that was passed

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen which made it a lot easier for

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Speaker 1: French police to be able to fire their weapons specifically

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Speaker 1: at people they think might be about to commit a

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Speaker 1: serious crime. Part of the reason for the change in

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Speaker 1: the law was the oh God, what the charlie hebdo

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Speaker 1: shoot mash. Yeah, there was just this like belief that

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Speaker 1: because two police officers were killed in that and there

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Speaker 1: was this kind of belief among segments of the population

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Speaker 1: that maybe if the police had been able to be

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Speaker 1: more aggressive, they would have responded more successfully to the shooting.

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Speaker 1: I think the existence of the American police and the

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Speaker 1: number of mass shootings we have might argue against that.

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Speaker 1: But that's one of the things people will say, is

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Speaker 1: why this shooting happened?

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Speaker 3: And yeah, kind and I think I think it's worth

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Speaker 3: owing the effect of that law. That law, like it

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Speaker 3: more than doubled the average number of like very very specifically,

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Speaker 3: like the number of like North and West African people

436
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 3: who like French people who get shopping the police doubled.

437
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 3: And yes, depending on the year, right, it either doubled

438
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 3: or in some cases almost tripled.

439
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been extremely stark the change. It's also worth

440
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: noting that, you know, in two thousand and five, we

441
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: had a huge set of riots in the suburbs of Paris.

442
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 1: I think it killed one person, and the riots were

443
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: sparked as the result of police were chasing two kids.

444
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 1: I believe they were Algerian French kids, and they wound

445
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 1: up like hiding from the police inside of a building

446
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: that was part of like one of the trains and

447
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: got electrocuted.

448
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were I think, I think what it was

449
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 3: that they were they were they were like trying to

450
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 3: they were trying to like go home, and they started

451
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 3: they like cut they decided to cut through like a

452
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 3: construction site, and someone called the police on them, so

453
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 3: they were away from the police, and I okay, So

454
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 3: I've heard different versions of this.

455
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: And I don't think we're ever gonna know precise Yeah.

456
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 3: Like there there was a version that was circulating at

457
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 3: the time, and now that might be true, but I

458
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 3: don't know about But there's a version of it that

459
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 3: says that, like the police stood there and watched these

460
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,719
Speaker 3: kids get electrocuted, and yeah, that's possible. I don't know

461
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 3: if that happened, but like a lot.

462
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 1: Of people certainly believed that that had happened. And so yeah,

463
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 1: and it was not obviously the death of these kids,

464
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: as is always the case when you have riots. This

465
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: bit was sort of helped to catalyze existing feelings. One

466
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: of the things that was sort of one of the

467
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: reasons why people were angry was that Muslims in France

468
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: at this point in time had essentially zero representation. In

469
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: two thousand and five, Islam was France's second most popular

470
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: religion after Catholicism. There were seven million French citizens of

471
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: Arab or African origin. They had no representation in the

472
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: National Assembly. Not a single member of the National Assembly

473
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: was a Muslim or even Arab or African in their descent,

474
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: so there was literally no representation. They were targeted by

475
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: the police. These kids die a suspicious death and people

476
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: people riot like like like motherfuckers, you know. And I

477
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: was a pretty good set of riots. Yeah, it was

478
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: that one the five ones. I can pull some of

479
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: the stats on it before I want to go back.

480
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,719
Speaker 1: I think I've got some right here. Actually, yeah, at

481
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: least I.

482
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 3: Think they burned. They earned ten thousand cars, yeah, toultiple

483
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: police stations, government ministries like city halls.

484
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, two hundred and thirty public buildings damaged. So it

485
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: was they went pretty hard.

486
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was it was like, you know,

487
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: this is only at the time, this was the biggest

488
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 3: like unrest in France since nineteen sixty eight, and it.

489
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: Is worth noting some of the differences between the government's

490
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: reaction to the riots we just had and to the

491
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and five riots. In two thousand and five,

492
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: the Interior Minister of France and Nicholas Sarkozzi called the

493
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: people involved in the riots scum who needed to be

494
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: got rid of. It was yeah, yeah, it was.

495
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 3: It was.

496
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: It was pretty ugly, and there was sort of immediate

497
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: like defense of the police force for their actions. It's

498
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: been a bit different in this most recent case. For

499
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: one thing, Emmanuel mccron immediately like said that the shooting

500
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: was horrible, like the actions of the police were bad,

501
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: which got the police very angry at him.

502
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

503
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: The camera footage of the shooting then came out and

504
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: made it very clear that this was an execution as

505
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: opposed to a complicated situation, which isn't to like overly

506
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: defend Macron in the administration. You can see just some

507
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: how things have changed in France politically.

508
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 5: Well.

509
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 3: I thing the other thing that's going on there is

510
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 3: that Macron is just a way weaker government than the

511
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 3: French government wasn't in like just five, right, like one

512
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 3: of the things, you know, So one thing I was

513
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 3: looking at was so in just Justson five, the French

514
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 3: deployed eleven thousand police to try to contain it, and

515
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 3: they kind of didn't. But like the stuff that happened

516
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: like two weeks ago, they there were forty five thousand

517
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: police deployed. So this is I think, like it gets

518
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 3: to like the severity of what's happening and how scared

519
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 3: the French state is of it, because you know, like

520
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 3: as the current French government is not very stable, they've

521
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: been trying to like they're on you're like, this is

522
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: like the fifth round of like riots that they've seen

523
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: in the last like seven years. Yeah, yeah, which.

524
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: Is also evidence that like the police, who have largely

525
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: gotten what they wanted from the government in over the

526
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: last seventeen years or so, have not succeeded in at

527
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: all reducing the severity and in fact have continued to

528
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: spark this kind of like these kind of riots.

529
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 3: The other thing is going on here, right, So partially

530
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 3: it's because the French police are like unbelievably racist. The

531
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 3: other thing that's going on here is this sort of

532
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess you could call it like the

533
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: the long rage crisis of capitalism. Right, Like, youth unemployment

534
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 3: in the suburbs is forty five percent, and this is

535
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 3: the kind of thing that caused the air of spring,

536
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 3: right was like, you know, you have all of these

537
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 3: populations which are structurally unemployed, right, there are no jobs

538
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: for them. What they you know, like they what jobs

539
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 3: they can get are like the just awful, Like you know,

540
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: like Americans are familiar with dogshit service sector jobs, right,

541
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 3: Like it's like it's that kind of stuff. And you know,

542
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: and this is a product of a lot of sort

543
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 3: of long range like political trends, right. It's it's you know,

544
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 3: like capitalism is and spitting people out of the social system.

545
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: The other thing that I think is I think is

546
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 3: really important about these protests is that like the kids

547
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 3: in the suburbs are like not really connected to the

548
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: French left. And there's a reason for that. And the

549
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: reason for that is this movement that happened in nineteen

550
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: eighty one. So in nine eighty one we got really

551
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: the first of this kind of riots. So you know,

552
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: these these suburbs were like mostly these like housing developments.

553
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: I guess we're mostly built like in the seventies to

554
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: accommodate like a new flow of migrant workers from mostly

555
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: from Algeria, from other places too, And in nineen eighty

556
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 3: one you get the first of these riots, and French

557
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 3: society is like, holy shit because there's a bunch of

558
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 3: non white people rioting and they lose their minds. And

559
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 3: after the first set of riots, which the first, and

560
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: the thing, the thing that's I think interesting about this

561
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: too is the initial riots aren't that big, like they're

562
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 3: they're like pretty small compared to like what has come

563
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: after happen.

564
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: Riot technology was in its infancy at that we were still.

565
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: Okay, that's slightly unfair like people people in France in

566
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: that period were pretty good at rioting. It's just that

567
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: like these ones, it wasn't as bad as it was

568
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 3: gonna get. And part of the reason it gets that

569
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: bad ist So okay. So the first the after the

570
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: first of these riots, there's this giant there's you know,

571
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: there's an attempt by the French left to like organize

572
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: these people, and they have this they have this thing

573
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: called the weear movement. Here I don't know it's French,

574
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: it's b you are.

575
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: I think we've we've all established that we're not going

576
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: to be impressing anyone with the level of our understanding

577
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: of the French language.

578
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 3: Yeah look, but you so that they have they have

579
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: this sort of anti racism movement, and you know, they

580
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: carry out in one hundred thousand person march from Marseille

581
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 3: to Paris. But the problem is this movement starts to

582
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: like fail almost immediately, it starts to fall apart because

583
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 3: you know, at this point Midrand, who is he's like

584
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: on and off again as the French Frime minister for

585
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: a lot of the eighties, and Midrand is from the

586
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: Socialist Party and his his plan for this is to

587
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: basically to attempt to co opt this movement and to

588
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: turn all of these people who live in the suburbs

589
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: into like a new into a new voter base for

590
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: the French Socialist Party. But the problem with this is

591
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 3: that instead of you know, okay, so the Midran does

592
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 3: some reforms kind of to like put money into these communities,

593
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: but like again, these people are being structurally disenfranchised by

594
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: a combination of sort of French racism, like the physical

595
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: urban geography of these of these suburbs, like capitalism in general,

596
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: and you know, these are these are sort of like

597
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: macro forces, and I Mida RAN's plan to stop the

598
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 3: riots is he has he has these summer music festivals

599
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: that like higher unemployed youth that are that are that

600
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: go by the name and I'm not making this up,

601
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: so os receives me. So they're just like, this is

602
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: this is our plan to saw the riots. We're just

603
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 3: gonna have like these like good work guys music concerts.

604
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: Now, I think I think you got it. I think

605
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: you got it.

606
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: This weirdly, this kind of works for a little bit.

607
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: There is there was a there was apparently a fun

608
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: version like a better version of that that occurred in

609
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: in Oregon. Uh and like I think it was the

610
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties when they were uh they were going to

611
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: have like a Republican convention in town. And so the

612
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: state governor, I think McCall was his last name, was like, Okay,

613
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw a big like music festival like two

614
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: hours south of Portland, and I'm gonna tell the cops

615
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: not to bust people for drugs. But yeah, yeah, but

616
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: different thing.

617
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this thing.

618
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 5: You know.

619
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: The problem with this thing is is again like the

620
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: point of this is not actually to sort of solve

621
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 3: the sort of structural racism of French society or do

622
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: anything about capitalism. It's it's to build a voter voter

623
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: base for the Socialist Party. And you know, after a

624
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: couple of years of this, the people in this movement,

625
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: like the actual kids in the suburbs are like, what

626
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: the fuck, Like our lives still sucks shit, Like you

627
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: guys haven't changed anything. And and you know, there's and

628
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: there's there's a lot of promises that the French Sovices

629
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 3: Party breaks. One of the important ones is that they

630
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 3: the French Loss Party had been promising to let immigrants

631
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: vote in local elections and that's just fucking vanished, right,

632
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: This has never happened. This is part of why there was, like, no,

633
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: there's so little representation in the French governments. And you know,

634
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: the actual the actual sort of broader goals of this

635
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 3: anti Rais movement it fails. And there's a there's an

636
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: undocumented workers movement that sort of comes that like splinters

637
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: off from it, but it's completely destroyed by the French

638
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 3: business class. And you know, France in this point period

639
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 3: still has some very strong unions, and the unions just

640
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 3: like we're like, now, fuck you, like die and just

641
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 3: hold them to fuck off. And from there and from

642
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 3: from the betrayal of the Socialist Party, and also simultaneously,

643
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: the other thing that's happening in the eighties is the

644
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: rise of sort of like these French new Like the

645
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: French New Right is like resurgence. These guys. When I

646
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 3: say the French New Right, these people are like fucking

647
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 3: neo Nazis, right, like very very very very A bunch

648
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 3: of very famous French neo Nazis who modern neo Nazis read,

649
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: appear in this period and they start doing there's a

650
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 3: bunch of anti immigrant murders that are just horrible, and

651
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: but you know, the state is just kind of gone

652
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: like eh, whatever, like fuck it, you guys can die.

653
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: And so and this has a massive impact on the

654
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 3: culture of these suburbs, and you know what what the

655
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: what kind of political possibility these they have because these

656
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: people like like to this day you will get people

657
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: talking about like the Great talked about the Great betrayal

658
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: and how they got fucked by the Socialist Party and

659
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: so like these people don't like they have very little

660
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 3: contact mostly with the mainstream French left the mainstream French

661
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 3: left is, especially the central left is really fucking racist,

662
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 3: like even like the communist parties really fucking And part

663
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 3: of what was happening here too is the eighties the

664
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 3: perid where the Communist party collapses and you know, and

665
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 3: so like all of the sort of like the organized

666
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 3: left factions like don't like them. The unions are like

667
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 3: what the fuck are these Algerians? Like fuck them, they're Muslim,

668
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: we hate them, uh, and you know, and so so

669
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 3: the legacy of this is that the government does some

670
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: welfare policies and they like try to do some job

671
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 3: creation a little bit, but this was always just doomed

672
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: to fail because these are you know, like what like

673
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: France in this period is de industrializing. And so the

674
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 3: product of this is like you have all of these

675
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 3: people who are now just unemployed, who were attempted, like

676
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: you know, there's a a temp to integrate them into

677
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: the left and the left just fuck them. But you know,

678
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: obviously they can't. They're not going to go to the

679
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: right because the right hates them like even more than

680
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: the French left does. And you get these you know,

681
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 3: and what happens is like these people, these like these

682
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: masses of like precariously employed like unemployed immigrants become this

683
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 3: like massive focus of the French state. And when Conservatives

684
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 3: take over in the nineties, like they use them as

685
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 3: this like raci escape guilt for like every problem. They

686
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 3: begin this like massive authoritarian like campaign against black and

687
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 3: Muslim people and like you know, like we're we're in

688
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: the US, right, like we know what that looks like.

689
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 3: And you know, and one of the other things that

690
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 3: that starts to happen is like like the French state

691
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: and the French right like portray all these peoples are

692
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 3: like like the eighties is also the period like you

693
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: know this this is this is right after the uh

694
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 3: the Iranian Revolution. There's this like rising fear of like Islamism,

695
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: and you know, and and and the way that like

696
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 3: the state responds to this is basically by just by

697
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: going with all these people are like like Islamist terrorists,

698
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: we hate them. All of all of the jobs programs

699
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 3: that have been set up, and all of the wolf

700
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: programs disappear, like there's the funding for the music concerts

701
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 3: even just vanishes, and all of this stuff is happening.

702
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: Particularly it is like particularly intensely in the early two thousands,

703
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 3: and that's that's the other contacts that leads up to

704
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: two thousand and five riots, is that like by by

705
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: two thousand and five, people who are living in these

706
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 3: places have seen like like really serious deteriorations in their

707
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 3: standards living in like the last like four years because

708
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: these programs are just being destroyed, and you know, and

709
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: then you know, when you get these these protests thatts

710
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: are in two thousand and five. And there's another very

711
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: similar thing that happens in two thousand and seven when

712
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: the police like crash into two kids on a motor

713
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 3: like a police car crash into two kids on a

714
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: motorcycle and kill them. And there's like there's like a

715
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: smaller but like very very intense like series of riots.

716
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 3: And then it's kind of weirdly quiet for a bit,

717
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, I might I say quiet. Okay,

718
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: it's been quiet from the rioting and the French police

719
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 3: keep killing people. One of the things that everyone that

720
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 3: people are talking about in this one is in twenty seventeen,

721
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: it came out that the French police just like fucking

722
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 3: raped a teenager and it's fucking horrible. Yeah, And then

723
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 3: I think leads us kind of into like into the

724
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: sort of modern like the thing that's happening right now,

725
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: which is that you know, like the kids who are

726
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 3: rioting in the street, And I think I think this

727
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: is a big part of the reason why it's this

728
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 3: intense is that you know, these are these are like

729
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 3: seventeen and eighteen year olds, right, They're old, and they're

730
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 3: you know, they're too old to believe in the sort

731
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 3: of like fairy tales of French liberty inequality. Right, they

732
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 3: know what that looks like. They know that it's like, friend,

733
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 3: like French liberty inequality means a police baton fucking breaking

734
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: your skull because you were walking down the street.

735
00:37:59,160 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 4: Right.

736
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 3: But they're also you know, they're seventeen or eighteen, they're

737
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: too young to know that they're supposed to be afraid,

738
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 3: and because of that they have, you know, like they

739
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 3: burned down multiple police stations. Like it's the rioting has

740
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 3: been just incredibly intense.

741
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: One of the things that has probably been the major

742
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 1: touchstone people have heard about these riots on social media

743
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: and stuff is or at least the thing that I

744
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: saw being spread the most was like the fact that

745
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: rioters were using firearms. There's a couple of things that,

746
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: like I noticed, one was people flipping out over like

747
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: the presence of guns in France. And interestingly, folks on

748
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 1: both sides of this I think got stuff wrong because

749
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: people on one hand, you had people being like, where

750
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: the fuck did they get guns? Something suspicious must have happened.

751
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: They must have come in from Ukraine. France is a

752
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: European country, and European countries don't have guns in the

753
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: civilian population, like, yes, yes they do France. Actually, interestingly enough,

754
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: France is one of those countries that primarily regulates who

755
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: is allowed to own what kinds of guns, as opposed

756
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: to what kinds of guns can be owned. So in France,

757
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: with the right licensing, you can own most of the

758
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 1: kinds of firearms that you can own in the United States.

759
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: In fact, in France, if you have the proper kinds

760
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: of permits, you can own something like an AR fifteen

761
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: with a thirty round magazine, which you could not purchase

762
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: in the state of California. Now these are these are

763
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: these are still very stringent gun control if you're going

764
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: to have because again they split the kinds of firearms

765
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: into category and the most restricted kind of firearms are

766
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: semi automatic rifles like ar platform guns. If you're going

767
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: to have something like that, you're doing an intense background check,

768
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: You're doing like you're submitting to random searches, you know,

769
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: by the police. Like it's not nearly as easy as

770
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: it is to acquire firearms in the US. But there

771
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: aren't quite a lot of firearms. I think you're allowed

772
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: to own up to like ten magazines per gun and

773
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: a thousand rounds or something like that. That said, I

774
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: don't believe the majority of the guns that we've seen

775
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: on the streets and the riots are normal, legal, civilian

776
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: owned arms. That said, the existence of guns in these

777
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: protests has also been heavily overstated, largely result of footage

778
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: of shit like people shooting out cameras with what are

779
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: actually air rifles that folks just assume our real firearms.

780
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: There's also been shit like there was one video that

781
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: went really viral that was a petrol bomb being set

782
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: off by protesters at a government building and it was

783
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: just blue checks on Twitter. People who pay elon for

784
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: it were spreading it saying, look, people are using RPGs

785
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: in the riots. You know, rioters have rocket launchers. These

786
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: are in some there were a number of folks who

787
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: got tens of thousands of shares and likes claiming that

788
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: this was These were examples of like heavy weaponry from

789
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: Ukraine getting over to the US. For one thing, if

790
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 1: guns were if weaponry was getting out of Ukraine, RPGs

791
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: are not like the thing that people would be psyched

792
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: to get. You can get RPGs in Europe, and you're

793
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 1: generally getting them from North Africa, right like, or from

794
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: the Balkans. You know, there's no shortage of com block

795
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: weaponry in that part of the country, but it was

796
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: not an RPG being used. Well.

797
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: Also, something I want to talk about a little bit

798
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: is that the actual thing, the actual weapon of the

799
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 3: French writers is fire and this is this is something

800
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 3: they are way better at this than the Americans are, right, Like,

801
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 3: I mean, I saw a video, absolutely I've seen kind

802
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: I saw a couple of videos that were just wild,

803
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 3: Like there's so I don't even know how they did this.

804
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 3: Someone had set like one of those like skyscraper tall

805
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 3: construction cranes on fire and not the bottom of it, right,

806
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 3: they set the they set the cabin on fire. It's like,

807
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: I don't even know how you do that? Because like,

808
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 3: like did they did they climb up the thing like

809
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 3: they got like did they set it on fire and

810
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 3: then climbed down will was on fire? Like, how do

811
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 3: you even do that? I saw I saw another video

812
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: that was unbelievably funny where a bunch of protesters like

813
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 3: like in front of the mayor of their town, covered

814
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 3: his car and gasoline and lit it on fire, which

815
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: was very funny. But like, but like, you know, this

816
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: is this is the thing like fire is.

817
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: There Like fire is area denial, right, like yeah, that

818
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: and and that's key. Yeah, it's areas avenues of advance.

819
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: You're able to protect your flanks.

820
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 3: And and also also it is it is a very

821
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 3: very good way to like it is very very if

822
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 3: you if if the thing you want to do is

823
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 3: destroy a police station, like lighting it on fire is

824
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 3: a very very good way to do that. And you know,

825
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 3: it's it's very effective. It's like destroying cars too. Is

826
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: the everything I think I think absolutely.

827
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: Enough of it.

828
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, and and and like everything that's been happening

829
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: is there's been a lot of looting, but this is

830
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 3: I actually think the most depressing part about these entire

831
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: riots is that most of the looting, you know, like

832
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 3: I am pro looting. This is this is like one

833
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 3: of my stances, right, but like, like there is a

834
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 3: lot of looting that is people looting high end goods

835
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 3: that they normally just would never have access to. Right,

836
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 3: That's not what's happening here. Most of the looting that's

837
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 3: happened here is food and medicine. Yeah, and that is

838
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 3: the most depressing thing. But the fact that people are

839
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 3: doing subsistence looting is like maybe the most depressing thing

840
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: I've ever heard in my entire life.

841
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: Like yeah, right, oh god, yeah, I mean it makes sense,

842
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: you know.

843
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like the last like you know, it's the

844
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 3: cost of living crisis, just like and again the fact

845
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 3: that like we're talking about places with forty five percent

846
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 3: youth unemployment, right, Like it's the conditions are so unbelievably

847
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 3: bleak that like, yeah, I mean, like this, this is

848
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: what happens when you do this to people, is like

849
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 3: they fight back. The other thing I want to talk

850
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: about is that a lot of these people are like

851
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: one of the things that people focus on is I

852
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: actually think it's very funny that there was there was

853
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: a guy interviewed in the New York Times, who had

854
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 3: like the moderate position on the riots, and their moderate

855
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 3: position on the riots was it's okay that they're burning

856
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 3: police stations, but why are they burning schools? And I

857
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 3: want to talk about the burning schools thing a little

858
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 3: bit because this is something that gets talked about a lot,

859
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 3: and you know, okay, like this this is you know,

860
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 3: this is the sort of sociological question that get because

861
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 3: because this is like, burning schools has been a thing

862
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 3: that's like this is this happened inwo thousand and five,

863
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: happened in two thousand and seven, even going back to

864
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 3: some of the riots in the eighties and nineties, people

865
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: were burning schools. And the reason these kids are burning schools, right,

866
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 3: is that most of the people, the people who are

867
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 3: burning these schools are like there are kids who went

868
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,479
Speaker 3: to these schools, right, and you know, they were either

869
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 3: in these schools or they just got out and they

870
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 3: realized these schools didn't do shit, right, Like, going going

871
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 3: to one of these schools doesn't lift you out of poverty.

872
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: Studying heart doesn't lift you out of poverty. You're fucked,

873
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 3: and you know, and so like yeah, of course, like

874
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 3: of course these people are lighting these are lighting their

875
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 3: schools on fire right there there. They're attacking. They're they're

876
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: they're like they're they're attacking like the actual friends like institution,

877
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: they were systematically set up to fuck them and one

878
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 3: of one of the other, like you know, and like

879
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: one of the things that always that people always talk

880
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 3: about it is like, well why why you you know this?

881
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 5: This?

882
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 3: You get this with American riots too, it's people ask

883
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 3: like why you burning your homes? Like why why are

884
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 3: you burning your own community? And I mean particularly with

885
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: the French suburbs, right, like these suburbs are a cage.

886
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: They were built as a cage. They were built specifically

887
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 3: as a cage to contain a bunch like as as

888
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: France's way of containing this non white labor force that

889
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 3: they that they imported into the country. And so you know,

890
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 3: and it's like yeah, and every every single day, the

891
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 3: bars of the cage are just are fucking getting are shrinking, right,

892
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 3: the cage is shrinking, The walls are getting tighter and tighter.

893
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 3: There's less food, there's less money, there's less opportunities, and yeah,

894
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 3: you know, at some white people start burning down the

895
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 3: cage and and everyone just is like walking around going

896
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 3: why why are you burning your cage down? It's your home,

897
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 3: but it's still a cage. Like the fact that the

898
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: fact that people are made to live in the cage

899
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: doesn't make it any less a cage. And that's that's

900
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 3: why these people are That's why, that's why these people

901
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 3: are burning it, because they like they know from you know,

902
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 3: just the the the experience of their everyday lives of

903
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: what it's like to live here, that this place is

904
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 3: fucking killing them. And so you know, they're they they

905
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 3: they responded in sort of the classic French fashion, which

906
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:20,280
Speaker 3: is to light it on fire.

907
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,479
Speaker 1: It is like if the goal was to integrate these

908
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: people into French culture, there's an extent to which.

909
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 3: They did work.

910
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, absolutely, there you go. You know, you

911
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: created like the beauty of globalization.

912
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: Of France.

913
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I again, like in terms of the people

914
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: flipping out about stuff, like I think it is important

915
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: to think about to keep in mind why people are

916
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: doing this, how bad a situation has to be for

917
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: people too, as you said, like burned their houses, their

918
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: homes down around themselves, like the when you think about

919
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 1: like looting as a function of basic survival, like that's

920
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: the degree to which these people have been like stretched out. Yeah,

921
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: and the fact that people are freaking out over shit

922
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: like guns. And it's largely honestly when I talk about that,

923
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: Largely the reason why is because there's a whole ecosystem

924
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: of mainly largely right wing people, like media influencers, a

925
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: lot of whom got blue checks as soon as Elon

926
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: offered it because it puts them up higher and the

927
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 1: search results. Who started making money in twenty twenty posting

928
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: riot born from the United States and who are desperate

929
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 1: to return to those days. So anytime there's disturbances anywhere,

930
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: they're going to try to like what is the most

931
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: you know, Oh, you know, a lot of folks on

932
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: the far left and a lot of folks on the

933
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: riot are angry at you know, the US for sending

934
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: weapons to Ukraine. Well let's blame this on that, or

935
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: you know, I want to make some sort of point

936
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: about gun control and pretend that like French gun control laws,

937
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: you know, don't work because some of the Rioters have

938
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: old shotguns or aks that got smuggled in from across

939
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean. So I'm going to make it about that.

940
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: But all of which is number one, like calculated in

941
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: order to increase the profit of a specific a specific

942
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: kind of dishonest media influencer, and all of which ignores

943
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: like the humanity of people who are are in a

944
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: desperate situation and acting desperately as a result.

945
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I think the everything that that

946
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: really pisses me off about this is that it obscures

947
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: the actual parts of this that are interesting and that

948
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 3: are you know, like that that are genuinely radical in

949
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 3: ways that I don't like. One of the things that

950
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 3: they that people tried to do in this was like

951
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 3: people tried to break their like their friends who'd been

952
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 3: like arrested by the French state out of prison, and

953
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 3: they they didn't, they didn't. They ended up failing. Because

954
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 3: this is one of the other things that's been happening

955
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 3: is lots of countries have police anti terrorism units, right,

956
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 3: the French have like multiple kinds of them. They also

957
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 3: have like military police units, but the French were using

958
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 3: these like anti like like specifically anti terrorism units against

959
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 3: the protesters, and that that's one of the units that

960
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 3: got deployed. I'm pretty sure if if i'm if I

961
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 3: if I if if the sources have been reading, are correct,

962
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 3: that was one of the things that happened in this

963
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 3: was an anti terrorists. They sent an anti terrorism needed

964
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 3: to stop a prison break, and that's I think, you know,

965
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 3: it's it's a really sort of emblematic thing of of

966
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 3: what the French state is and like where it's going. Right,

967
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: It's like the the French Republic was born from a

968
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 3: bunch of people trying to storm a prison, and it

969
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 3: has now gotten back to a bunch of people trying

970
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 3: to storm a prison, and they send a bunch of

971
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 3: like fucking anti riot like antim Some.

972
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: Of these weird right wingers were like, look, this is

973
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 1: what happens when you when you let all these foreigners

974
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: into your country that destroy the culture. I'm like, man,

975
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: there's not a goddamn thing more French than tottacking a

976
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: prison then attacking your own prison, like that is the

977
00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: most there. Like these people have literally returned to tradition.

978
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, they think they've become French royalists together. It's just like,

979
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 3: oh God, like in shalah, they suffer the same fate like.

980
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: I anyway, whatever, It's it's very frustrating the way in

981
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: which like we're seeing kind of I think, I don't know,

982
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 1: we'll see. I probably shouldn't be such a doomer because

983
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: I don't actually know the extent to which all that

984
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: worked for the uh the kind of people who were

985
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: attempting to grapple and wrestle these riots into something that

986
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: could make them quick cash. Yeah, but it is kind

987
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: of a reminder that those people are still there, that

988
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: like infrastructure of deceit still exists, and every time, you know,

989
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: the next time there's big riots or protests here, every

990
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: time it happens anywhere, that shit is all going to

991
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 1: spin up. I will say one of the in terms

992
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: of like stuff that worked, the use of pellet guns

993
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: to take out cameras was seemed to have been extremely effective.

994
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 3: Oh I should Okay, there's another thing I should talk

995
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 3: about that like didn't doesn't doesn't show up on film

996
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 3: much for obvious reasons. But like one of the most

997
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 3: effective things that was happening in these riots was people

998
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 3: using cars to break down the fronts of stores.

999
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1000
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: And and the second, the second one that was very

1001
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 3: effective was people using like there's a lot of use

1002
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 3: of scooters as like a way to get as a

1003
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 3: way to get like move around really quickly as a

1004
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 3: way to redeploy, as a way to like like as

1005
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 3: but like like you know, Okay, the thing about these

1006
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 3: protests that is that is really sort of interesting a

1007
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 3: lot of ways is like it's what what what they've

1008
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 3: basically done, like not not from a sort of anarchist

1009
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,439
Speaker 3: ideological perspective, but from an organizational perspective, is that they've

1010
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 3: created like a bunch of networks with affinity groups. And

1011
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 3: so though like the way this stuff is happening is

1012
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 3: you get a very small group of people who are

1013
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: capable of moving very quickly and they just go do

1014
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 3: a thing, right, they don't they don't tell anyone else

1015
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 3: what they're doing. There's no sort of like there's there's

1016
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 3: no sort of like top down central command that you

1017
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 3: can just sort of like stop.

1018
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 4: Right.

1019
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 3: It's it's this incredibly sort of decentralized like it's an

1020
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 3: incredibly sort of centralized movement. And the police just like

1021
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 3: it took them like a week like over like about

1022
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 3: to like really like take back control of these places.

1023
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: And you know, and like right now with the period

1024
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 3: we're entering is like a period that we saw right

1025
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 3: after the George Floyd uprisings, which is like, this is

1026
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 3: the period where like the police cracks down or like

1027
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 3: tries to arrest a bunch of people right simultaneously. Like

1028
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 3: I don't see a world where we don't see another

1029
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 3: one of these in the next like five maybe ten years,

1030
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 3: because none of the structural problems are like all the

1031
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 3: structural problems with the French state are just getting worse

1032
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 3: and worse and worse and worse. And ye, you know,

1033
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 3: at some point someone is like, like, I think, I

1034
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: think the problem with this and the problem with the

1035
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 3: French movement in general has been for the last about

1036
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 3: twenty years, there have been a lot of very very

1037
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 3: similar sort of riots trying to bring down governments and

1038
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 3: they mostly don't work. But at some point someone is

1039
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 3: going to figure out something and they are going to

1040
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 3: do it, and France like could well be a place

1041
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 3: where that happens, just because the state's capacity to do

1042
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 3: violence is you know, like, well, the state's legitimacy is

1043
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 3: just purely reduced to its capacity for violence. And I

1044
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 3: don't know, that's not great, but I mean it's what's happening.

1045
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't know.

1046
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 3: I hope, I hope, I hope someone beats them and

1047
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 3: I hope the people that beat them are better than

1048
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 3: the current like a pack of murderers jackals.

1049
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: Speaking of other things that are like a long and

1050
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: proud tradition in French politics.

1051
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like there's nothing more French than overthrowing the That's.

1052
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, that's like everywhere where. You're like, wow, these

1053
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: people suck. I hope they get overthrown and also not

1054
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: by someone worse.

1055
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, no more Napoleons.

1056
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, no more, No more Napoleon's Napoleon's Bonaparte. That's plural.

1057
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 3: All right.

1058
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: Uh well, I feel like are we uh is that

1059
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: us for today?

1060
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1061
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 3: I think I think I think that's that's that's that's

1062
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 3: been our riots.

1063
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: All right, That's been our French Riots episode. Everybody, Uh

1064
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: until next time, I don't know, maybe a choir and

1065
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: train with a pellet gun. You know, they're easy to get, uh,

1066
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: surprisingly effective legally not firearms.

1067
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 3: You know, you can like look the thing they're very

1068
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 3: useful for if there's like small animals that are like

1069
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,919
Speaker 3: trying to eat your fucking garden.

1070
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: Yep, you can use them on that as well, small

1071
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: animals for the government. Hey, everybody, welcome back to it

1072
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: could happen here. I'm Robert Evans, and this is a

1073
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart and nowhere. I don't know

1074
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: showcases collapse quite as well as the US Mexico border.

1075
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: And that's my little introduction. Now I'm going to pivot

1076
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: over to James Stout. James, what are we talking about today?

1077
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,919
Speaker 6: Well, today we are talking about the US Mexico boarder

1078
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 6: is specifically in the Great State of Texas, which people

1079
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 6: might remember from its winter power grid failures. It's upcoming

1080
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 6: summer power grid failures. And Greg Abbott's sort of hilarious

1081
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 6: and also very cruel and terrible antics on the border.

1082
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 6: And we're joined today by one guest who two guests

1083
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 6: we've had before to talk about the border on the podcast.

1084
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 6: We've got Gen Budd, a former senior Border Patrol agent,

1085
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 6: an author, and an activist. And Marianna Travina Wright, who

1086
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 6: people remember as the Butterfly Lady, the previous owner of

1087
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 6: an M four assault rifle, the lady who made the

1088
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 6: cop walk off her butterfly sanctuary once, and hero occasionally

1089
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 6: of Twitter dot com.

1090
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 3: How are you, guys, We're good, We're good.

1091
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 7: Good to see you guys.

1092
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: It's nice to hear because we are this is normally

1093
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 1: the time of year where Texas is rough climactically, in

1094
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: this particular year, it's it's downright apocalyptic down there.

1095
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, we just don't go outside. You're likely to vaporized spontaneously.

1096
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks bad.

1097
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 6: Yeah. And so what I've gathered us here today to

1098
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:42,240
Speaker 6: discuss is the upcoming implementation of a a floating border wall,

1099
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 6: a barrier which is going to make children drown. I

1100
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 6: don't really know how to describe it. Press one, if

1101
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 6: you could sort of describe this proposed Greg Abbott's talking

1102
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 6: about it, but but it's it's clearly like a not

1103
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 6: just a state thing. So perhaps we could start out

1104
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 6: by explaining exactly what he's been talking about, what this

1105
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 6: design looks like.

1106
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 2: So the floating border wall, I confess in the beginning

1107
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 2: I was kind of like, I don't get it because

1108
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of a wall, you know, going extending upwards.

1109
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 2: But essentially what it is are these giant booyes plastic

1110
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: booies that are very tightly woven together so that you

1111
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: can't go in between them. And then the booyes also spin,

1112
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 2: so if you grab onto them, you're going to just

1113
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 2: spin down, and then underneath the booys is four feet

1114
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: of netting, so if you try and swim underneath it,

1115
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 2: you will be captured in the netting and then you

1116
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: will likely drowned. It's originally I think the original design

1117
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: for the makers was to prevent groups like Green Peace

1118
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 2: and so forth from getting to oil what do you

1119
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: call them, oil stands out in the middle of the

1120
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 2: ocean and keep their boats from getting to them. So

1121
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 2: now they're going to use them and string them because

1122
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 2: the border technically most Americans, I don't think. No, there's

1123
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 2: the border technically along a lot of parts of the

1124
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 2: Rio Grande and Texas is in the middle of the river,

1125
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 2: depending on where the river's flowing that year, and so

1126
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 2: they will have to also be weighted down as well.

1127
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: And the hope for the governor is that most of

1128
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: the people will drown trying to get over to the

1129
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 2: US side, which means their bodies will remain in Mexico

1130
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 2: and then we won't have to deal with them easypasy.

1131
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, that is a particularly dark consideration. They hadn't thought of.

1132
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 6: Our border is already. If people aren't familiar with di

1133
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 6: colonial atlats, they have some good visualizations, but you can

1134
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 6: see where migrants die, and they have one I think

1135
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 6: it's called where Migrants Die, and there are various sort

1136
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 6: of colors for different people dying from exposure, people die, dehydration, drowning,

1137
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 6: and overwhelmingly people don't die on the way here. They

1138
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 6: die within a few miles of US border, normally on

1139
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 6: the northern side our borders already and Jen has covered

1140
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 6: this extensively how our border is already killing people, But

1141
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 6: this is I think particularly cruel. Is it something that

1142
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 6: like Abbott started talking about it maybe a month or

1143
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 6: so ago, maybe two months ago?

1144
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 3: Now?

1145
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 6: Is it something that he's doing sort of of his own,

1146
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 6: like they Arizona sort of contain a wall, or is

1147
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 6: it something that he's proposing as a sort of federal operation.

1148
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: What's going on with I think he originally probably got

1149
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: the idea because in the Trump administration they had promoted this,

1150
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 2: and so I believe that the former chief under Trump,

1151
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 2: Rodney Scott, was probably they were probably researching him and

1152
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 2: CBP were researching how to do this, because it would

1153
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 2: take quite a few quite at least quite a few months,

1154
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 2: if not years to research this and make something like

1155
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: this happen. Yeah, but I think that they in that

1156
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: because they knew that that's just not going to fly federally.

1157
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 2: But although why wouldn't it. I mean, all deterrence policies

1158
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 2: are based on this kind of cruelty, so I guess

1159
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 2: visually they thought it would be too much. But since

1160
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 2: since Rodney Scott is no longer the chief of the

1161
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 2: Border Patrol and he resigned, he's been working with the

1162
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 2: State of Texas and specifically with Governor Greg Abbot to

1163
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: develop new policies and so forth. And he's been down

1164
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 2: there helping the union and helping other ex Border Patrol

1165
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 2: agents come up with new policies and new cruelties for

1166
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 2: Greg Abbott to install. So I think originally the idea

1167
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 2: was a federal idea, and now it's come down to

1168
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 2: the State of Texas.

1169
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 6: Okay, So I guess how far along is the State

1170
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 6: of Texas in Like I know, before Trump built his

1171
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 6: border warr we had these little thirty foot prototypes.

1172
01:00:58,400 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 3: In San Diego.

1173
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 6: He gave a lot of contracts people who'd given him

1174
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 6: a lot of money in his election campaign. Wheatland Tube,

1175
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 6: I think is a big one, and the mixed deal,

1176
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 6: But how far is the State of Texas along in

1177
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 6: its plan to create a floating murder barrier.

1178
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 8: The booy barrier border barrier is already created and it's

1179
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 8: available in various links.

1180
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 7: And I should add in addition to.

1181
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 8: The booys in between the booys are spinning radial blades.

1182
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 8: So you yeah, it just I mean every aspect of

1183
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 8: this I I miss. That is a bloody nightmare. I

1184
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 8: went to the manufacturer site and it addresses this too,

1185
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 8: So you can't even get to like the middle of

1186
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 8: the booy with you know something, and cut the string

1187
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 8: of booys because there are these radial razor blades too.

1188
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 7: So the state will.

1189
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 8: Be deploying it in thousand foot strips. And Jin and

1190
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 8: I did a little podcast on this, I don't know

1191
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 8: a couple of months ago when we first saw these

1192
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 8: signs appearing on the river and they were super strange.

1193
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 8: It was Memorial Day weekend, I believe, and they were

1194
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 8: numbered and they said like RGV for Rio Grand Valley

1195
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 8: RGV one ninety one, one ninety three. We thought, are

1196
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 8: these mile markers like we have on the freeway, But

1197
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 8: they weren't at any particular distance and they were put

1198
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 8: at various spots that appeared as though they could be

1199
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 8: areas where migrants crossed. They can also be the paths

1200
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 8: where the cows and the horses come down to drink.

1201
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 8: Jenn's been on the river with us. She's observed that

1202
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 8: at various platforms on the river where water pump stations

1203
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 8: are for farmers and irrigation districts and such. So we

1204
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 8: saw these signs. The RGV one ninety one is facing

1205
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 8: the river facing Mexico. The backside of it is a

1206
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 8: caution danger risk of drowning sign in English and in Spanish,

1207
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 8: but it is facing the United States, on the bank

1208
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 8: of the Rio Grande River in the United States, so

1209
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 8: it's in no way a caution to anyone who might

1210
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 8: be approaching the river. And we thought, why are they

1211
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 8: suddenly putting up these signs, because you know, forever people

1212
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 8: have been crossing the river, and Border Patrol is on

1213
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 8: the boats there, Texas DPS, the Coast Guard, the US

1214
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 8: Coast Guard now Game Wardens now Florida Highway Patrol and

1215
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 8: Florida Fishing Game and all these. I mean, it is

1216
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 8: everybody's floating the river now, not for recreation but hunting migrants.

1217
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 7: And so then we thought, well, maybe these.

1218
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 8: Are so that when these out of state interlopers, and

1219
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,959
Speaker 8: at times even the militia who show up to help them,

1220
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 8: could easily communicate with the authorities, say I'm at marker

1221
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 8: number one ninety one or whatever. Then it was just

1222
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 8: a few days after that that the announcement of this

1223
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 8: floating border buoy barrier came up. And my guess is

1224
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 8: the markers will be used to determine where those are deployed,

1225
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 8: where they get moved, and that sort of thing, so

1226
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 8: that then they can be account four.

1227
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 6: Right, So are they proposing the entirety of the river

1228
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 6: be covered by the single They're going to move segments

1229
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 6: of it to areas where they think it's a high

1230
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 6: traffic area.

1231
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 8: They're going to begin an Eagle Pass where four people

1232
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 8: drown just this weekend. But then, according to Steve McGraw,

1233
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 8: who's head of Texas DPS, it sounds like they will

1234
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 8: be putting them all along the river in areas they

1235
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 8: believe are high traffic.

1236
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, yeah, and Jesus Christ, it is the dock

1237
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 6: se and yeah, Eagle Pass is where all those people

1238
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 6: died in the in the anac conditioned trailer. Like I

1239
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 6: think two years ago, right, was that Eagle Pass.

1240
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 8: Those kind of trailer horrors have happened near US and

1241
01:05:54,000 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 8: fell furious in San Antonio. Unfortunately, they happen throughout the

1242
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,959
Speaker 8: border region. And there are so many ports of entry

1243
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 8: land ports of entry along the Texas Mexico border because

1244
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 8: Texas is I mean Mexico is our number one trading

1245
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 8: partner with the US, and we have NAFTA, which established

1246
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 8: the North American Free Trade Zone. So if you have

1247
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 8: a television or a refrigerator, or you drive a car

1248
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 8: in the United States today, chances are those pieces and

1249
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 8: parts are manufactured in Mexico in the Free Trade Zone

1250
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 8: and then they get brought over by truck. Same thing

1251
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 8: with so much of our produce, So the amount of

1252
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 8: that trailer traffic is enormous, and those trailers are used

1253
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 8: for human smuggling at much higher numbers, we should note

1254
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:53,560
Speaker 8: than the river area. Same as for narcotics trafficking. Those

1255
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 8: things are coming across by the truckload and in shipping vessels,

1256
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 8: not in small bundles across the Rio Grand River.

1257
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, I think most is I think most narcotic

1258
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 6: center the country through ports of entry, red than between

1259
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 6: ports of entry against nodding.

1260
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh absolutely, yeah, yeah.

1261
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:22,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, especially the narcotics that are very expensive. Even

1262
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 2: when I was an agent in the mid nineties, I

1263
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 2: used to say, why do we only get marijuana and

1264
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 2: and the agents would say, well, because cocaine's too expensive

1265
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 2: to put on somebody's back and hike it through the mountains. Yeah,

1266
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 2: across the river or in the desert too. It's just

1267
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 2: easier to buy off a CBP agent or a Border

1268
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 2: patrol agent and just get waved on through.

1269
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not like dumb otherwise, Like these these are

1270
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: huge money businesses. You're not throwing a half a million

1271
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: dollars of cocaine on some guy's back, yeah.

1272
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 7: Right and risking it floating away.

1273
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, this valuable merchandise. Like they're no like

1274
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: no more cavalier with it, like Target is, you know, Like.

1275
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, the obviously this is part of a sort of

1276
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 6: larger ABBOTT does a lot of posturing on the border, right,

1277
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 6: and that posture has real consequences for migrants, and it

1278
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 6: has real consequences for people living on both sides of

1279
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 6: the border as well, right, especially I think people to

1280
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 6: our previous coverage that will be very well aware of that.

1281
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 6: Perhaps we could sort of characterize this within the context

1282
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 6: of Operation Loan Star within the other like you've said, right,

1283
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:37,599
Speaker 6: the other deployments. It's not just even Texas National Guard

1284
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 6: who are now deployed to the border. So could you

1285
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 6: give us like an overview of all the ridiculous lapping

1286
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:45,679
Speaker 6: that's been done.

1287
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 8: Well, there are twelve or thirteen states to date that

1288
01:08:53,080 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 8: have sent prison guards, their national Guards, game or wildlife officers,

1289
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 8: and state police to the border.

1290
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 7: And this is related to you two different.

1291
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 8: Campaigns basically by the Border Patrol Union. One is Biden

1292
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 8: Border Crisis with that hashtag which they launched in March

1293
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 8: of twenty twenty one, and the other is every State

1294
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 8: is a Border State, which was a battle cry for

1295
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 8: MAGA politicians during the midterms. And so what we see

1296
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 8: now are these red states with governors who want to

1297
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 8: capitalize on looking tough on immigration sending reinforcements to the border.

1298
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 8: DeSantis obviously was the first to do that because he's

1299
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 8: been very vocal about envy Abbot and how Abbot had

1300
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 8: kind of a leg up on him in any campaign because.

1301
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,600
Speaker 7: Abbot got the border and Abbot got.

1302
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 8: To as you said, posture there and be you know,

1303
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 8: the new sheriff in town and you know, stepping in where.

1304
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 7: Sleepy Joe is, you know, not performing.

1305
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 8: But what we see in reality is Brandon Judd, who's

1306
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 8: the president of the National Border Patrol Council, was stuck

1307
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 8: to Trump. You know, they were best buddies and and

1308
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 8: you know, basically campaigning together.

1309
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:43,640
Speaker 7: And then.

1310
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 8: Brandon Judd kind of fell away from Trump when he

1311
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 8: lost reelection and has become Greg Abbott's best buddy and

1312
01:10:54,560 --> 01:11:00,160
Speaker 8: press junket sidekick and helped stage the launch of opera

1313
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 8: Lone Star, which you know, was like a Fourth of

1314
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 8: July type parade with the tanks and the helicopters and

1315
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 8: the planes and the boats and the you know, the

1316
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 8: ATV agents and the horses, the whole nine yards. And

1317
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 8: people think, I think most people in the United States

1318
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 8: believe that Abbot is this renegade doing this all on

1319
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 8: his own. And what we see is the reality is

1320
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:37,720
Speaker 8: it is a joint operation between the state government and

1321
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 8: the federal government, but the Feds won't admit to it

1322
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 8: because of the optics. It's bad enough that Biden continued

1323
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 8: border wall construction, which most of his supporters opposed. Now

1324
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 8: he is working hand in glove with Abbot. And when

1325
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 8: I say our experience, what we see daily and what

1326
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 8: I have documented is US Border Patrol working with Texas

1327
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 8: Department of Public Safety troopers and Operation Loan Star Texas

1328
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 8: National guardsmen literally riding in the same vehicles together, responding

1329
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 8: to scenes, patrolling together. And at the Butterfly Center, we

1330
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:33,599
Speaker 8: had National Guard Texas National Guard parked on the levee

1331
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 8: at our property, blocking our access back and forth. And

1332
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 8: I went and said, hey, guys, you know this is

1333
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:46,599
Speaker 8: our property and we have to have access to it

1334
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 8: during regular business hours for you know, my staff who

1335
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 8: are working here and our members and visitors who come

1336
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 8: to explore and enjoy. So I need you all to move.

1337
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 8: I need you to move your humbyes so we can

1338
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 8: get back and forth. And I recorded this interaction as

1339
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 8: I do all and they said, ma'am, we don't take

1340
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:11,679
Speaker 8: our orders from you. We take our orders from Border Patrol.

1341
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:15,759
Speaker 8: And that was a revelation to me when this happened

1342
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,600
Speaker 8: a couple of years ago. So I actually got on

1343
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 8: the phone with the patrol agent in charge, the highest

1344
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:26,759
Speaker 8: ranking Border Patrol agent at the McCallen station, and I said,

1345
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 8: his name is Tony Crane. I said, Tony, you need

1346
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 8: to come out here and tell these guys to move.

1347
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:33,680
Speaker 8: They're saying they'll only do it for you, and they

1348
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 8: only take orders from you. And Tony drove out there

1349
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 8: to the Butterfly Center, to the levee and instructed the

1350
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 8: National Guard to move their vehicle and they did. And

1351
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 8: this is something we've seen over and over. And I

1352
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 8: now have in email commander or Regional director rather of

1353
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 8: Texas DPS, Victor Escalon, who the rest of the nation

1354
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:05,599
Speaker 8: may know from the Uvaldi tragedy. I have email from

1355
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 8: him where he is invoking the federal statute that DPS

1356
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 8: claims gives them the authority to ignore our Fourth Amendment

1357
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 8: rights and enter private property without warrant as long as

1358
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 8: they're working with Warner Patrol, and they are claiming that

1359
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:29,639
Speaker 8: they are doing so at the request of the United

1360
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 8: States Attorney General according to the federal statute.

1361
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 6: Wow A Importantly, the federal government, in any of its aspects,

1362
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:41,960
Speaker 6: is in saying no, this isn't true, or like that

1363
01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:44,600
Speaker 6: they're what do you get, Like you say, hand in

1364
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 6: hand with these and like it's not even just a

1365
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:51,639
Speaker 6: joint federal and state operation. Like I know, I think

1366
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 6: it was South Dakota's deployment. Was it that was funded

1367
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 6: by a wealthy individual? Like the state didn't pay for it.

1368
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 6: I can't remember which to couture it was, but yeah,

1369
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:04,240
Speaker 6: it was funded by a wealthy donor who paid for it.

1370
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1371
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 8: So whichever state CHRISTI Noem is in charge of, Yes,

1372
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 8: And I believe that also happened in Kentucky or Tennessee.

1373
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:15,240
Speaker 7: Same thing.

1374
01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:19,719
Speaker 8: It was a wealthy donor who funded their state National

1375
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 8: Guard deployment.

1376
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 6: Yeah. And then perhaps Jen, you could explain to people

1377
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:26,720
Speaker 6: why it is so different if they believe they have

1378
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 6: these within one hundred miles of border, and then again

1379
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 6: within twenty five miles of the border, so many of

1380
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:37,639
Speaker 6: your fundamental rights don't apply, And could you explain how

1381
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,400
Speaker 6: that works? And then how if the National Guard seat

1382
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,720
Speaker 6: themselves is also having the ability to sort of wave

1383
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 6: the Fourth Amendment, what that would mean for the privacy

1384
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 6: of people living along the border.

1385
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 2: In the United States Border Patrol Academy, So I went

1386
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 2: through the academy and I started in June of nineteen

1387
01:15:55,680 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 2: ninety five, so I can at least testify to that. Basically,

1388
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 2: you know, I had a four year in law, so

1389
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 2: I knew a little basics about it, and then going

1390
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 2: to the academy, it was really kind of sad because

1391
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 2: they don't really teach you much of anything. They're just like,

1392
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 2: you know, their rights are limited. We're allowed within twenty

1393
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 2: five miles of the border by the law to go

1394
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 2: on anybody's private property and even search their buildings, as

1395
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 2: long as it's not a domicile, and that can sometimes

1396
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 2: be in question whether it's being used as a domicile

1397
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 2: or we consider it as a domicile. And then within

1398
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 2: one hundred miles of any land or sea border, which

1399
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 2: encompasses two thirds of the United States population, we can

1400
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:45,240
Speaker 2: basically stop you and ask you to prove that you're

1401
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 2: a United States citizen. And so then they increase that

1402
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 2: with checkpoints that are a little ways away from the border,

1403
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:01,520
Speaker 2: where they under the guise of asking for or your citizenship.

1404
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 2: They then get to police American citizens or legal residents.

1405
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 2: And as the years have progressed, Border patrol keeps trying

1406
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 2: to push those authorities. In the beginning, you know, we

1407
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:20,480
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to work with local PD, the local sheriffs.

1408
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 2: There was a very clear separation, a very clear line

1409
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 2: between Border Patrol and local cops, or at least legally

1410
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:30,719
Speaker 2: on written paper, there were supposed to be. And after

1411
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 2: nine to eleven, what we end up seeing is the

1412
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:38,720
Speaker 2: Border Patrol decides to get very heavily invested into surveillance.

1413
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 2: And it's not a coincidence. Former Chief Rodney Scott was

1414
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 2: in charge of that during that time, and his basic

1415
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 2: statement was, you know, if a car is bombed in Iraq,

1416
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 2: the Border Patrol needs to know about it. So they

1417
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 2: considered anything in the world to be important to the

1418
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 2: Border Patrol, and they wanted the Border Patrol to be

1419
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:01,800
Speaker 2: the go to agency and as far as surveillance. So

1420
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 2: that's why you see them being used in Black Lives

1421
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,559
Speaker 2: Matter protests and things like this. And we saw them

1422
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:11,560
Speaker 2: a lot in the Trump administration where they were supposedly

1423
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,599
Speaker 2: guarding federal buildings and then went and attacked them. So

1424
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 2: what you see is the Border Patrol trying to quietly

1425
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 2: eke into what is typically considered peace officer authority. So

1426
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 2: they're trying to get peace officer authority in Texas through

1427
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 2: the state legislature, and they just keep trying to expand

1428
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 2: their authority more and more. What I see in Texas specifically,

1429
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 2: is when you look at the history of immigration when

1430
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:42,520
Speaker 2: the United States, when we first you know, when Texas

1431
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 2: first became a state and all this other stuff. Originally

1432
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:51,720
Speaker 2: the states did their own immigration patrolling. And so if

1433
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 2: you went and you just decided you're going to somehow

1434
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 2: you landed on the coast in Georgia, then you would

1435
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 2: have to go to a Georgian official and pay whatever

1436
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 2: it is that they require of you and stuff. And

1437
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,879
Speaker 2: so what I see more and more is like Texas

1438
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 2: is taken back that authority and saying we're the ones

1439
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 2: that are going to say this, and so then they

1440
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:14,360
Speaker 2: can make money off of the deterrence policies and all

1441
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:18,040
Speaker 2: of this other stuff. So it's just a constant expansion

1442
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 2: of the rights of the cops, while at the same

1443
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:28,599
Speaker 2: time constantly reducing the rights to the people who live

1444
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:30,320
Speaker 2: here and even the people that cross here. A lot

1445
01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 2: of people think, they'll say, you know that migrants don't

1446
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 2: have any constitutional rights.

1447
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 7: Well that's not true.

1448
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 2: They have constitutional rights because it says people in the

1449
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:44,560
Speaker 2: US Constitution, it doesn't say citizens. So in certain in

1450
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:46,760
Speaker 2: certain areas it will say citizens. And then that is

1451
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 2: exclusive to United States citizens, but they're you know, the

1452
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 2: basic rights are afforded to even migrants. But because the

1453
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 2: migrants don't have much of a void, the border patrol

1454
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:04,639
Speaker 2: gets away with with everything. Secret teams, cover up teams,

1455
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 2: and all this other stuff. Border patrol agents will just

1456
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 2: flat out tell you constitution doesn't exist down here, and

1457
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:11,920
Speaker 2: they never get in trouble for it.

1458
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 8: So yeah, one of one of the things Jen just

1459
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 8: touched on is Texas DPS getting in on this immigration business.

1460
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 8: Is when Governor Abbott declared that Operation Loan Star would

1461
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 8: be targeting Hispanic males and in some places they talk

1462
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 8: about of fighting age. So they're already depicting all of

1463
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:46,040
Speaker 8: these individuals as like soldiers in some invasion in a

1464
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:52,520
Speaker 8: gang war, and you know that they're again hostile combatants

1465
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:55,880
Speaker 8: to the United States. But they were going to charge

1466
01:20:55,880 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 8: them all with criminal trespass. So we hear a lot

1467
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:03,040
Speaker 8: about how awful the cartel is and how much money

1468
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 8: they take from migrants and then hold them for ransom,

1469
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 8: and how expensive it is to get across. Well, once

1470
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:14,559
Speaker 8: they get across the state of Texas becomes the cartel,

1471
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:20,639
Speaker 8: they arrest them, charge them with criminal trespass, put them

1472
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:25,760
Speaker 8: in the county jail. It's a five thousand dollars fine.

1473
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 8: Then when they're released from state custody, they're immediately handed

1474
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 8: over to federal detention, and that is generally the for

1475
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:41,519
Speaker 8: profit geogroup or cor civic. And there my understanding is

1476
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 8: fines for detention can be ten thousand to twelve thousand

1477
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 8: dollars for your federal detention. And so here we have

1478
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:59,480
Speaker 8: it used to be just the for a profit federal

1479
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 8: detention facilities cashing in on our criminal immigration policies. And

1480
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 8: Governor Abbot's like, hey, why aren't we getting a piece

1481
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 8: of the pie. So that is what Operation Loan Star

1482
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:19,400
Speaker 8: is really about. It's not about public safety. It's not

1483
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,840
Speaker 8: that all this fetanyl is coming across the Rio Grande

1484
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 8: River being smuggled by migrants. It's about chi ching chi Ching,

1485
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:33,559
Speaker 8: chi ching, chiching, putting all of them in to the

1486
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 8: county jail at five thousand dollars ahead.

1487
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, and it's all the while right like he's that.

1488
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 6: I know, some of the Texas National Guard people aren't

1489
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 6: getting the benefits they would normally get if they've been

1490
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,600
Speaker 6: mobilized or deployed because it's a state deployment, not a

1491
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:57,080
Speaker 6: federal deployment. And like as much as Abbott and DeSantis

1492
01:22:57,120 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 6: try and paint, the border is a dangerous place full

1493
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 6: of like had no like drug warlords and cartel violence.

1494
01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:07,760
Speaker 6: Overwhelmingly the people in that in Lone Star who have

1495
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 6: died have died because they've got drunk and drove because

1496
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:14,320
Speaker 6: they had an accident with a personally owned firearm. Because

1497
01:23:14,360 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 6: Texas law doesn't allow them to stop the National God

1498
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 6: bringing their own weapons.

1499
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,760
Speaker 1: They're they're not getting into gunfights with Cikarios, right, Like,

1500
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,800
Speaker 1: it's not it's not any any anything like that. It's

1501
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:30,120
Speaker 1: the standard problem of taking a bunch of men away

1502
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 1: from the place they normally live and making them do

1503
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:33,400
Speaker 1: mine numbing duty.

1504
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, they're they're doing mine numbing duty in you know,

1505
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:46,440
Speaker 8: exasperating heat. It's boring as hell. We see them asleep

1506
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 8: in vehicles, watching Netflix, doing other things. When National Guard

1507
01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 8: totaled their Enterprise rental truck on the gate at the

1508
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:02,679
Speaker 8: National Butterfly Center, what we found were bud light cans

1509
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 8: on the ground, which we can only assume bounced out

1510
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 8: of the truck bed when that truck made impact and

1511
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 8: was destroyed. The local police will not release any public

1512
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:26,600
Speaker 8: information related to calls and reports that they have to

1513
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 8: take of drunken disorderly conduct, noise complaints, property damage, sexual assault,

1514
01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:39,879
Speaker 8: all of these things happening at the hotels where National

1515
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 8: Guard is staying. But we know from visitors and from

1516
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:48,719
Speaker 8: property managers and others that.

1517
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 7: This is happening regularly because.

1518
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:56,280
Speaker 2: They don't get leadership and it's frankly, it's like really

1519
01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 2: young kids that are down there. And the other day

1520
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:03,960
Speaker 2: that we need to say too, is that the National

1521
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 2: Guard that's being posted there, the young National Guard kids

1522
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 2: are seeing increase rates of suicide. And that's that's something

1523
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 2: that's particular to Border Patrol agents because when you're an

1524
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:18,519
Speaker 2: oppressor and you do that cut of work, then you're

1525
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:21,439
Speaker 2: going to end up the suicide rates go through the roof,

1526
01:25:21,479 --> 01:25:24,160
Speaker 2: as they are with the Border Patrol, and now you're

1527
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,960
Speaker 2: seeing that with the National Guard. But Marianna's right, there's

1528
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:31,599
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that they're suppressing about what these

1529
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 2: National Guard kids are getting into because they're bored down there.

1530
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:37,799
Speaker 2: So they're sitting down there in Texas drinking and opening

1531
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 2: it up and getting in trouble. But it's all kind

1532
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 2: of hush hush quiet about that.

1533
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, and not only are they bored, but these are,

1534
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:48,639
Speaker 8: like you said, eighteen nineteen, twenty twenty one year old's

1535
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 8: getting paid six thousand dollars a month, like they have

1536
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:56,360
Speaker 8: never had this kind of cash before, and what are

1537
01:25:56,360 --> 01:26:01,120
Speaker 8: they going to do with it? Go buy guns at

1538
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 8: our local pawn shop.

1539
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:06,760
Speaker 7: They pay the National Guard that will, that's what they're

1540
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 7: being paid.

1541
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:12,360
Speaker 8: And initially their taxes were not being withheld or anything.

1542
01:26:12,479 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 8: So yeah, that was a whole nother issue. And then

1543
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 8: for a while they were trying to unionize because they

1544
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:26,280
Speaker 8: were not getting the benefits of a regular deployment. And

1545
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 8: the ones who were working in law enforcement already as

1546
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:36,200
Speaker 8: police officers, firefighters, paramedics and such, they also, while they're

1547
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:41,880
Speaker 8: on deployment do not accrue their hours toward their pensions,

1548
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 8: so they're taking another hit for that. And so these

1549
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:49,280
Speaker 8: were all things that I guess the state didn't really

1550
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,920
Speaker 8: think through when they called all these people up and

1551
01:26:51,960 --> 01:26:56,240
Speaker 8: forced them to come sit on the border and do

1552
01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 8: mind numbing work.

1553
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:03,320
Speaker 1: For the most part, it's a terrible idea, like comprehensive.

1554
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 1: It's one of those things if you if you spent

1555
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:09,080
Speaker 1: any time studying the surge in Iraq and kind of

1556
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 1: the later part of the Bush Ears and some of

1557
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 1: the shit that happened when they just grabbed a bunch

1558
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:15,519
Speaker 1: of National Guard guys and through the like, it's a

1559
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:17,640
Speaker 1: lot of the same shit. It's people who were like

1560
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,320
Speaker 1: finding ways to get alcohol and drugs, who were crashing cars,

1561
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 1: who were because like, yeah, you were. It's just this

1562
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:27,720
Speaker 1: is this is an inevitable consequence, which is why you

1563
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:31,400
Speaker 1: shouldn't do something like this unless there's like a dire

1564
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:34,040
Speaker 1: reason to need to bring the National Guard into a

1565
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:35,839
Speaker 1: situation like a natural disaster.

1566
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:38,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead.

1567
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:41,839
Speaker 8: I would I would say that they all need house mothers.

1568
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:46,559
Speaker 8: I mean, like fraternities have and stuff, because every time

1569
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 8: I run into one of these young men and they

1570
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 8: start to like look at me or open their mouth

1571
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 8: a certain way, I just want to grab them by

1572
01:27:55,880 --> 01:28:00,760
Speaker 8: the ear and be like, ah, you know, junior, I'm

1573
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 8: gonna spank you.

1574
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:05,959
Speaker 7: You know, my first snapper.

1575
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:09,639
Speaker 1: Yeah you are nineteen. You should not be in this

1576
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:13,760
Speaker 1: position right now. Yeah, get out of here. Yeah go ahead,

1577
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:17,240
Speaker 1: we'll take your gun from you too.

1578
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:22,880
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1579
01:28:23,160 --> 01:28:25,040
Speaker 6: But we spoke to a few of them at grub

1580
01:28:25,040 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 6: At and I when we were down there, and one

1581
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:27,600
Speaker 6: of them was just saying like he was trying to

1582
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 6: get some money for college, and yeah, I don't think

1583
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:33,880
Speaker 6: they're reccring those benefits because if they're under state orders

1584
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 6: in it, they don't get it. So Greg Abbot's kind

1585
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,839
Speaker 6: of screwing everyone apart from himself and his little friends.

1586
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 6: I guess maybe to finish up. I know that one.

1587
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 6: I think the only case like I can come across

1588
01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:50,839
Speaker 6: of this happening of someone dying trying to rescue migrants

1589
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 6: was a National Guard soldier who tried to rescue some

1590
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,959
Speaker 6: people from the river and drowned from what I understand,

1591
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 6: and like, obviously this drowning barrier is going to if

1592
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 6: border patroller even invested in investing in getting people from

1593
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 6: the river, which they might not be if they're from

1594
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:13,160
Speaker 6: the Mexican site, if they're still on the Mexican side

1595
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 6: of the border, right in theory, would put those people,

1596
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:20,479
Speaker 6: those like National Guard and Border patrol agents in danger

1597
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:25,360
Speaker 6: to So what have Border patrol to say about the

1598
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:27,080
Speaker 6: floating barrier so far?

1599
01:29:28,240 --> 01:29:30,280
Speaker 2: They haven't said anything about it so far, and there

1600
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:32,639
Speaker 2: have been a few Border patrol agents who've lost their

1601
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 2: lives jumping into the river as well. There have been

1602
01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 2: other migrants who have lost their lives trying to save

1603
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:40,519
Speaker 2: their children and so forth. Migrants die every day in

1604
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 2: that river, and the Border Patrol is just going to

1605
01:29:45,479 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 2: stay quiet about it because they like it's it's their

1606
01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:52,759
Speaker 2: management who's gone along with it. And if they didn't

1607
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:55,360
Speaker 2: like and if the buying administration didn't like it, then

1608
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:57,200
Speaker 2: they would come out and say so, or they would

1609
01:29:57,200 --> 01:29:59,320
Speaker 2: come out and have Chief Gloria Chaveez come out and

1610
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:00,320
Speaker 2: say no, we're not going.

1611
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 9: To have this.

1612
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 2: This is going to kill people. This is not right,

1613
01:30:03,640 --> 01:30:06,479
Speaker 2: you know on our first blah blah blah, which we

1614
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:09,040
Speaker 2: all know it's bullshit. But the truth is is they

1615
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:09,840
Speaker 2: really don't care.

1616
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 9: They just don't care.

1617
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 2: And as they say in the Border Patrol, and we

1618
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:15,720
Speaker 2: learn and you all learned. I knew it, but you

1619
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:17,839
Speaker 2: all learn from the ten to fifteen group on Facebook

1620
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:19,800
Speaker 2: they call them floaters and take pictures of them and

1621
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 2: make fun of it. So the Border Patrol could care less.

1622
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 2: It's just one less migrant. They got a process.

1623
01:30:27,200 --> 01:30:31,599
Speaker 8: Well, and you know, as Jim said, if US Border

1624
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:35,960
Speaker 8: Patrol was opposed to this new border barrier, they would

1625
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 8: say something well, I think it's.

1626
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:38,880
Speaker 7: Even worse than that.

1627
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:44,000
Speaker 8: In twenty eighteen, Trump got border wall funding, and as

1628
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:47,960
Speaker 8: you mentioned, he had his you know, Commando climb, all

1629
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 8: these border wall prototypes in the desert and all of that.

1630
01:30:52,439 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 8: In twenty nineteen he got his second tranch of border

1631
01:30:56,280 --> 01:31:01,720
Speaker 8: wall funding, but twenty and twenty twenty one were continuing resolutions,

1632
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:06,800
Speaker 8: so he was getting barter wall funding after that, but

1633
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:14,599
Speaker 8: it was always for existing approved designs, and those are

1634
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 8: the concrete with the steel ballards. So for even though

1635
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 8: Trump floated the idea of this Wui border barrier, this

1636
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:31,720
Speaker 8: floating border wall, to get congressional approval or US Army

1637
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:34,800
Speaker 8: Corps of Engineer approval for such a thing would have

1638
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 8: been an issue. Also there's the issue of the International

1639
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:41,919
Speaker 8: Boundary and Water Commission Treaty, which is a bi national

1640
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:47,720
Speaker 8: treaty with Mexico that governs the Rio Grande River, the

1641
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 8: water that flows in it, the boundaries, who gets to

1642
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:54,439
Speaker 8: take how much water from it, things that are built

1643
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:59,080
Speaker 8: and might affect the flow of the river. As Jen mentioned,

1644
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:01,840
Speaker 8: the inter national boundary is the middle of the river,

1645
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 8: no matter where the river is flowing now, because over

1646
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 8: millions of years, it has shifted. The channel has shifted many,

1647
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 8: many times and greatly. So we know the FEDS probably

1648
01:32:17,240 --> 01:32:21,800
Speaker 8: border patrol with the Trump administration. So DHS wanted this

1649
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:26,320
Speaker 8: floating border wall. The easiest way for them to get

1650
01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 8: it is to have Governor Abbott do it. In two

1651
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 8: thousand and five, the real ID Act, in that act

1652
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 8: of legislation, Congress gave the Secretary of Homeland Security the

1653
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:50,519
Speaker 8: authority to waive every law local, state, federal for border barrier.

1654
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 8: So it doesn't say border wall, it says border barrier.

1655
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 8: So presumably this buoy border barrier would also be covered,

1656
01:33:00,280 --> 01:33:03,120
Speaker 8: so the FEDS don't have to worry about something like

1657
01:33:03,200 --> 01:33:06,960
Speaker 8: the National Environmental Policy Act or the Endangered Species Act

1658
01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 8: or the Rivers and Harbors Act in deploying this. But

1659
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:18,840
Speaker 8: they do not have authority to waive treaties or the Constitution.

1660
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:21,120
Speaker 7: So since.

1661
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:26,559
Speaker 8: At least two thousand and five, the federal government has

1662
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:32,599
Speaker 8: been trying to devise ways to effectively waive the IBWC treaty.

1663
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:35,680
Speaker 8: One of the ways in which they have done that

1664
01:33:35,840 --> 01:33:41,559
Speaker 8: is with the We Build the Wall campaign, which built

1665
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 8: you know, they built border barrier on the International boundary

1666
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:50,280
Speaker 8: line in Sunland Park, New Mexico and in Mission Texas,

1667
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:56,200
Speaker 8: and the US government settled with them, allowing this illegal

1668
01:33:56,320 --> 01:34:01,400
Speaker 8: structure to stand in violation of the Tree in spite

1669
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:07,960
Speaker 8: of Mexico's objections, thereby setting a legal precedent, effectively waiving

1670
01:34:08,000 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 8: the treaty.

1671
01:34:10,160 --> 01:34:16,240
Speaker 7: But now Abbott can do this, and who's going to

1672
01:34:16,280 --> 01:34:16,720
Speaker 7: sue him?

1673
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:21,839
Speaker 8: The IBWC isn't going to do a damn thing because

1674
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:25,040
Speaker 8: they have no authority to sue on their own. They

1675
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,600
Speaker 8: have to go to the federal government and ask the

1676
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:32,200
Speaker 8: Department of Justice to sue on their behalf. And it's

1677
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:37,519
Speaker 8: the Department of Justice that has already settled with Fisher

1678
01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:42,880
Speaker 8: Industries for the we build the wall fraud fence in

1679
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:47,479
Speaker 8: violation of the treaty. The other issue is Texas doesn't

1680
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 8: have to abide by NEPA or any equivalent law. And

1681
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 8: we know that the FEDS have in the past devised

1682
01:34:56,240 --> 01:35:02,080
Speaker 8: really nasty reach arounds for the law where if they

1683
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:05,960
Speaker 8: get busted doing something illegal like having Customs and Border

1684
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:11,840
Speaker 8: Protection spray imas appear a broad spectrum herbicide that is

1685
01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:15,960
Speaker 8: a known carcinogen all over people, animals, and plants on

1686
01:35:16,040 --> 01:35:19,720
Speaker 8: the border, they get sued and made to stop that,

1687
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:22,680
Speaker 8: they'll simply pass the money through to the state of

1688
01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:27,080
Speaker 8: Texas and ask them to continue it. And I think

1689
01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:34,240
Speaker 8: this floating buoy border barrier is exactly that kind of thing.

1690
01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 8: The Biden administration can say, we're not doing it, and

1691
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:42,600
Speaker 8: they don't have to get approval for this design, and

1692
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 8: they'll just find a way to either pass the money

1693
01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:50,480
Speaker 8: through to Texas or allow Texas to continue to basically

1694
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 8: fundraise for it by prosecuting immigrants for criminal trespass and

1695
01:35:57,000 --> 01:35:58,800
Speaker 8: finding them to get out of county jail.

1696
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:00,599
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1697
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:01,839
Speaker 6: Wow, that is dark.

1698
01:36:03,360 --> 01:36:05,680
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting to point out though, that when

1699
01:36:05,720 --> 01:36:11,679
Speaker 2: Governor do See of Arizona put up his train car thing, yeah, Biden,

1700
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:14,840
Speaker 2: the Biden administration did get involved with that and they

1701
01:36:14,960 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 2: and they were upset about that. So far, we haven't

1702
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:20,920
Speaker 2: seen anything about this, and so we'll see if they

1703
01:36:20,960 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 2: deploy it and the Biden administration stays quiet about it.

1704
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:27,880
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, we're closing in on like November twenty

1705
01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:32,759
Speaker 6: twenty four, and I think Biden really is very sensitive

1706
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 6: about being seen as quote unquote weak on the border,

1707
01:36:37,080 --> 01:36:41,599
Speaker 6: and like, given the absolute disaster it was the end

1708
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 6: of Title forty two and the way they handled that,

1709
01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:47,680
Speaker 6: and they didn't really say anything when border patrol with

1710
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:50,880
Speaker 6: clearly holding people in conditions that are in violation of

1711
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:55,719
Speaker 6: their own detention standards. Like, I don't have high hopes

1712
01:36:55,760 --> 01:36:57,000
Speaker 6: for the Biden administration.

1713
01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:00,120
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's interesting because you would think, like a

1714
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:03,280
Speaker 2: whole thing from the Union and everybody that is pro

1715
01:37:03,479 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 2: border patrol and anti immigrant was like, if you in

1716
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,960
Speaker 2: Title forty two, then then it's just going to overwhelm

1717
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:11,519
Speaker 2: the border patrol and more people will come. And we

1718
01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:14,479
Speaker 2: kept saying for a year like no, that's not going

1719
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:16,880
Speaker 2: to happen. It's going to be drastically cut. And so

1720
01:37:16,920 --> 01:37:19,360
Speaker 2: it's drastically cut. And you would think the Bide administration

1721
01:37:19,439 --> 01:37:20,479
Speaker 2: would be like look what I did.

1722
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:23,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but they're not.

1723
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:26,599
Speaker 2: I mean like they have no clue how to talk

1724
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:28,479
Speaker 2: about the border and what to do on the border.

1725
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:29,439
Speaker 2: It's sad.

1726
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 8: Well, it's this double edged sword of get in line,

1727
01:37:33,479 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 8: do it the legal way. So the people who say

1728
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 8: we're not anti immigrant, we just want them to do

1729
01:37:39,280 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 8: it the legal way and get in line. So Title

1730
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,920
Speaker 8: forty two ends, we've got the CBP one app which

1731
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:49,240
Speaker 8: gives them an appointment so they can stand in line

1732
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:52,240
Speaker 8: to cross at a legal point of port of entry

1733
01:37:52,240 --> 01:37:56,599
Speaker 8: and do it legally. And now they've got to find

1734
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:59,040
Speaker 8: a way to thwart that and to mess it up.

1735
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 8: And Biden, as you said, is not saying, look at

1736
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:06,439
Speaker 8: what we did. We've got everybody standing in line doing

1737
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:07,439
Speaker 8: it the legal way.

1738
01:38:08,120 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1739
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:10,320
Speaker 6: I think they don't want to look at CBP one too,

1740
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:13,639
Speaker 6: given what a disaster it's been and how biased it's

1741
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:16,840
Speaker 6: been and how bad it continues to be. For sure,

1742
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:20,880
Speaker 6: for sure, they've failed to offer any other options. And yeah,

1743
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:23,240
Speaker 6: I don't really have any hope that things will not

1744
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 6: just get worse. There seems to be a bipods and

1745
01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:29,000
Speaker 6: consensus that it's okay to kill lots of people trying

1746
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:32,920
Speaker 6: to come to our country for help because it's bad

1747
01:38:32,960 --> 01:38:34,360
Speaker 6: if folks news just mean to you.

1748
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:39,759
Speaker 8: Jen has been very vocal and produced lots and lots

1749
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:45,240
Speaker 8: of research and documentation on how our deterrence policies are

1750
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:50,519
Speaker 8: designed to kill and they're not a whole lot of

1751
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:55,600
Speaker 8: people using the G word, but Jen has been courageous

1752
01:38:55,680 --> 01:39:00,320
Speaker 8: enough to do it. I was recently told by my

1753
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:04,720
Speaker 8: employer that I could not use it, and I think

1754
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:07,559
Speaker 8: it's it's a horror, but Jen can speak to it.

1755
01:39:11,880 --> 01:39:13,519
Speaker 2: We have to do a whole other episode.

1756
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we should be.

1757
01:39:17,080 --> 01:39:17,800
Speaker 3: We will.

1758
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:21,760
Speaker 6: We're definitely going to keep covering this because it's one

1759
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:24,360
Speaker 6: of the things it just disappears from a lot of

1760
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:27,640
Speaker 6: national media in between election cycles or in between.

1761
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:30,280
Speaker 1: Well and unfortunately it's it's one of the things where

1762
01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:32,599
Speaker 1: kind of the numbers are heading in the wrong direction

1763
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 1: nationwide because like the border, like the right is winning

1764
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:42,040
Speaker 1: on border stuff right now, the right is winning on immigration. Like,

1765
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:46,439
Speaker 1: there's some pretty dark polling likes as much as you know,

1766
01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:48,719
Speaker 1: some of the last couple of elections have been positive

1767
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:51,680
Speaker 1: in terms of the pitiful performance of like kind of

1768
01:39:51,720 --> 01:39:55,559
Speaker 1: maga Republicans. Like if you if you look at kind

1769
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:58,880
Speaker 1: of how Americans are polling on border issues and immigration issues,

1770
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:02,000
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty bleak at the moment. And I don't really,

1771
01:40:02,240 --> 01:40:04,840
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone has a great clear clue as

1772
01:40:04,880 --> 01:40:08,200
Speaker 1: to like how to reverse that at the moment, which

1773
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:10,160
Speaker 1: isn't to say that it can't be reversed, it's just

1774
01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:12,839
Speaker 1: it's it's difficult.

1775
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:16,719
Speaker 2: Well, it's difficult, especially when the Democrats are always ceding

1776
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:19,960
Speaker 2: the argument to the Republicans, like they're afraid to make

1777
01:40:20,000 --> 01:40:24,840
Speaker 2: the argument that a robust and humane asylum system that

1778
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:28,640
Speaker 2: can inspect the people requesting asylum is a national security

1779
01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:31,000
Speaker 2: issue and you need one. You can't just not have

1780
01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:34,040
Speaker 2: a NASH. You can't have an asylum not have an

1781
01:40:34,080 --> 01:40:37,280
Speaker 2: asylum system. You have to have It's an essential part

1782
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:41,400
Speaker 2: to the national security infrastructure. So people that argue that

1783
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:44,920
Speaker 2: we shouldn't have an asylum system because it's a threat

1784
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:48,599
Speaker 2: to national security or completely ignorant about what they're talking about,

1785
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:52,240
Speaker 2: and so they have to start framing it as as

1786
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:54,880
Speaker 2: a national security issue, you know, one where we can

1787
01:40:55,160 --> 01:40:57,760
Speaker 2: have people come and be inspected and so forth. And

1788
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:00,960
Speaker 2: then the people who are the affair various people. Yeah,

1789
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:03,120
Speaker 2: they're going to go in between the ports of entry, fine,

1790
01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 2: arrest those people, but let's have a humane system otherwise.

1791
01:41:07,720 --> 01:41:12,400
Speaker 8: It's also fundamental to the success of our economy, and

1792
01:41:13,000 --> 01:41:19,840
Speaker 8: with the US birth rate is declining and without a robust, safe,

1793
01:41:21,240 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 8: timely immigration system, ideally one that allows people to go

1794
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:30,559
Speaker 8: back and forth. Because what I hear from people here

1795
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:33,320
Speaker 8: is I miss my country. I want to return to

1796
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:36,160
Speaker 8: my country. I want to come here to see my family,

1797
01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:39,360
Speaker 8: to work for a season or for a spell, to

1798
01:41:39,479 --> 01:41:42,800
Speaker 8: send money home, but then I want to be able

1799
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:46,960
Speaker 8: to return, and our current system it's too deadly to

1800
01:41:47,120 --> 01:41:51,840
Speaker 8: allow them to make it through and then go back

1801
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:54,080
Speaker 8: and attempt to do that a second time.

1802
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:57,200
Speaker 7: Another issue related to.

1803
01:41:59,400 --> 01:42:05,880
Speaker 8: The narrative and read winning on immigration is we found

1804
01:42:06,040 --> 01:42:08,559
Speaker 8: at the Butterfly Center that when.

1805
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:11,000
Speaker 7: Biden continued building border wall.

1806
01:42:11,800 --> 01:42:15,280
Speaker 8: And we said, oh my gosh, you know this is

1807
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:18,120
Speaker 8: what's happening, and we posted photos and video and everything

1808
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:24,439
Speaker 8: of it, people who had supported US, Democrats, liberals with

1809
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:29,160
Speaker 8: a capital L who had supported US said, you're lying,

1810
01:42:30,240 --> 01:42:36,320
Speaker 8: or that's just their continuing trumps. They had to and

1811
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:43,599
Speaker 8: then when we contradicted every one of those arguments with facts,

1812
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:48,400
Speaker 8: then they said, oh, well, if Biden's doing it, then

1813
01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:51,560
Speaker 8: there must be a good reason. And you know, the

1814
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:55,360
Speaker 8: US can't accept everybody. And you know, you get this

1815
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:57,519
Speaker 8: walking back of.

1816
01:42:59,320 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 9: All of the.

1817
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:06,840
Speaker 8: Things that they were saying when Trump was president.

1818
01:43:06,600 --> 01:43:07,320
Speaker 7: About.

1819
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:15,080
Speaker 8: Being humane, about needing an effective system, about creative solutions

1820
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:18,720
Speaker 8: and all of this, and now it's suddenly, well, you know,

1821
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 8: we can't let everybody in. And and so I have

1822
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:28,400
Speaker 8: honestly found and I'm going to take a lot of

1823
01:43:28,439 --> 01:43:31,880
Speaker 8: hit flat for this, but there's basically no difference between

1824
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 8: a moderate Republican and a liberal capital l.

1825
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:42,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's me seems that way sent me. Uh, Trump

1826
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:43,920
Speaker 6: had months of time before you two, Biden had years

1827
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 6: of it.

1828
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:47,760
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, certainly, I mean it's it's I think

1829
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:50,000
Speaker 1: pretty much impossible to argue with that, at least on

1830
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:52,439
Speaker 1: the on a broad scale, like if you're just kind

1831
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:56,920
Speaker 1: of like looking at at national trends. Uh, there's there's

1832
01:43:57,000 --> 01:43:59,000
Speaker 1: ample support for that argument.

1833
01:43:59,640 --> 01:44:03,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, Biden, I mean Obama deported more people than anyone.

1834
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, massive number. Yeah, well cool, yeah yeah.

1835
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:10,599
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1836
01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:14,280
Speaker 6: Where can people find out more terrible stuff about the border?

1837
01:44:14,479 --> 01:44:16,040
Speaker 6: Is there in podcast they can listen to.

1838
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:21,680
Speaker 2: We do have a podcast, Border Patrol Watch. Marianna and

1839
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:23,920
Speaker 2: I have kind of started it just to talk about

1840
01:44:23,960 --> 01:44:26,800
Speaker 2: a lot of these issues that we feel are being

1841
01:44:26,960 --> 01:44:31,120
Speaker 2: left out. And it's on YouTube. We also have a

1842
01:44:31,400 --> 01:44:36,880
Speaker 2: TikTok account and Twitter for the moment, we'll see how

1843
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:41,920
Speaker 2: that goes. And Facebook and Facebook and Instagram, And there

1844
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:45,280
Speaker 2: is Border patrol watch dot com. Yeah, and that list.

1845
01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:48,439
Speaker 2: There's a page on there for all the agents arrested

1846
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:50,480
Speaker 2: for rape and pedophilia.

1847
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:53,120
Speaker 7: There's a corruption page.

1848
01:44:53,280 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 2: There's a page on how they try and indoctrinate the

1849
01:44:56,439 --> 01:44:59,479
Speaker 2: youth down here on the Borderlands and so forth.

1850
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 9: So I'm all about that jazz.

1851
01:45:01,920 --> 01:45:06,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's hashtag on a first and so where could

1852
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:08,200
Speaker 6: people it's all buttiplar watch. How about you two? Do

1853
01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:10,680
Speaker 6: you guys have individual accounts? Where can they find you?

1854
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:15,120
Speaker 8: Jin is doing most of this, and I believe it's

1855
01:45:15,200 --> 01:45:20,840
Speaker 8: under the Border Patrol watch banner. Yeah, because you know,

1856
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:26,519
Speaker 8: both of us found ourselves targeted or throttled or being

1857
01:45:26,600 --> 01:45:33,120
Speaker 8: you know, really suppressed by Twitter and Facebook.

1858
01:45:33,439 --> 01:45:36,120
Speaker 2: And lost my forty thousand followers.

1859
01:45:36,200 --> 01:45:40,559
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, Yeah, but buttomtry watch is great.

1860
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:43,200
Speaker 6: You had a great thread on agents who have facing

1861
01:45:43,360 --> 01:45:46,599
Speaker 6: charges for sexual assault, and that's a very small minority

1862
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:50,080
Speaker 6: of agents who have done sexual assaults certainly, but yeah,

1863
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:51,800
Speaker 6: there's some really good information for people on there.

1864
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,000
Speaker 8: Those are just the ones who are being prosecuted or

1865
01:45:56,080 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 8: have been convicted.

1866
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:00,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, most of them sadly have not, and

1867
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:01,920
Speaker 6: even the ones who have, it took too long and

1868
01:46:02,240 --> 01:46:05,360
Speaker 6: it was far too completed. We can, Yeah, we can.

1869
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:08,200
Speaker 6: I talk again on that happy topic another day. But

1870
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:10,759
Speaker 6: thank you so much for giving us some of your afternoon.

1871
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:10,960
Speaker 5: Guys.

1872
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:11,880
Speaker 6: We really appreciate it.

1873
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:15,120
Speaker 7: Thank thank you guys for all you do and forgetting

1874
01:46:15,120 --> 01:46:15,840
Speaker 7: the word out.

1875
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:31,280
Speaker 1: It.

1876
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 3: It could happen here. It's it's the podcast that's happening here.

1877
01:46:36,479 --> 01:46:39,120
Speaker 3: That's not what we called it that, but you know,

1878
01:46:39,280 --> 01:46:42,240
Speaker 3: such as such as such such as such as the world. Uh.

1879
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:45,720
Speaker 3: And today I'm going to be talking about one of

1880
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:48,160
Speaker 3: one of one of our I don't want to say rare,

1881
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:50,360
Speaker 3: but we're we're doing one of our how do we

1882
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 3: put the World back Together? Episodes And in order to

1883
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:55,360
Speaker 3: do that, I'm going to be talking with Miro and Krant,

1884
01:46:55,360 --> 01:46:58,040
Speaker 3: who are two organizers for the Dual Power Gathering bit

1885
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:03,800
Speaker 3: West that's happening in what like two months ish. Yeah,

1886
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:05,719
Speaker 3: it's Cordon Miro. Welcome to the show.

1887
01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:07,240
Speaker 5: Hi.

1888
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:09,200
Speaker 9: Thanks, it's great to be on.

1889
01:47:10,280 --> 01:47:13,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great. It's great to have you too. Okay,

1890
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 3: So I guess I should I guess we should start

1891
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:17,800
Speaker 3: with so this is this is well, I don't know

1892
01:47:17,840 --> 01:47:21,000
Speaker 3: if seconds the right term. The first of these happens

1893
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:25,640
Speaker 3: last year in Indiana? Is it last year?

1894
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1895
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:28,040
Speaker 3: I was last year. I had to I had I

1896
01:47:28,080 --> 01:47:29,639
Speaker 3: had to make it. I had to do a quick

1897
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:33,800
Speaker 3: checking my memory to make sure that twenty twenty two

1898
01:47:34,040 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 3: was in fact last year and we haven't somehow, so

1899
01:47:36,479 --> 01:47:38,760
Speaker 3: we kept in the twenty twenty four already. Oh boy,

1900
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:42,519
Speaker 3: things are things that things are going great here. But yeah,

1901
01:47:42,640 --> 01:47:44,640
Speaker 3: I wanted to, I guess start with talking about what

1902
01:47:44,760 --> 01:47:47,920
Speaker 3: the dual power gathering is and yeah, like what what

1903
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:49,960
Speaker 3: what happened at the first one and how did it go?

1904
01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:57,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so dual power gathering. Uh, I guess maybe I

1905
01:47:57,439 --> 01:47:59,280
Speaker 5: think to start with is what is dual power?

1906
01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:00,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have talked about that in a bit.

1907
01:48:01,479 --> 01:48:02,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it.

1908
01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:09,920
Speaker 5: Maybe the best way to put it is something that

1909
01:48:10,240 --> 01:48:11,880
Speaker 5: maybe a lot of people have heard before, which is

1910
01:48:11,920 --> 01:48:13,920
Speaker 5: building a new world in the shell of the old.

1911
01:48:14,280 --> 01:48:23,160
Speaker 5: So we live in a society, right, so there's a

1912
01:48:23,200 --> 01:48:25,960
Speaker 5: lot of institutions that we have to deal with, and

1913
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:30,120
Speaker 5: for a lot of people it's essential to rely on

1914
01:48:30,200 --> 01:48:33,760
Speaker 5: these institutions because there's not other options. And as anarchists,

1915
01:48:34,600 --> 01:48:37,599
Speaker 5: it's kind of our goal to build those other options.

1916
01:48:38,479 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 5: And dual power is that building a second power in

1917
01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 5: opposition to the state powers. So you know, like tech stuff,

1918
01:48:49,439 --> 01:48:55,679
Speaker 5: so internet, mesh, networks, just alternative infrastructures, alternative medical care.

1919
01:48:56,880 --> 01:49:01,080
Speaker 5: Though I'm sure that specific phrasing can and imply something

1920
01:49:01,120 --> 01:49:07,040
Speaker 5: else which I did not mean, but just working with

1921
01:49:07,200 --> 01:49:11,600
Speaker 5: communities to try to not rely on the state. And

1922
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:14,400
Speaker 5: so dual power gathering is bringing together you know a

1923
01:49:14,479 --> 01:49:18,200
Speaker 5: bunch of people from orgs and independent activists and honestly

1924
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:19,880
Speaker 5: people who just want to get involved and don't know

1925
01:49:19,960 --> 01:49:26,000
Speaker 5: a lot to help build those counter structures. And honestly,

1926
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:29,880
Speaker 5: this cool Zone media brought a lot of people went

1927
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:34,560
Speaker 5: to the podcast from last year, so it seems like

1928
01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:36,800
Speaker 5: your audience really really likes this stuff.

1929
01:49:38,479 --> 01:49:40,120
Speaker 3: I'm sad I wasn't able to go to last year's

1930
01:49:40,160 --> 01:49:42,920
Speaker 3: I was in the process of like setting up for

1931
01:49:43,080 --> 01:49:44,560
Speaker 3: and then I had a COVID scare. It had to

1932
01:49:44,680 --> 01:49:46,960
Speaker 3: like lock down for like an entire week in it,

1933
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:50,080
Speaker 3: and it turned out that I didn't have it. But

1934
01:49:52,080 --> 01:49:55,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm very sad. I preferred that you didn't

1935
01:49:55,120 --> 01:49:58,080
Speaker 3: spread COVID. Yeah, I was like, so, okay, let's not

1936
01:49:58,439 --> 01:50:03,040
Speaker 3: like endanger people's lives. Seems better than in fact doing that.

1937
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:06,439
Speaker 5: And on that note, since there's been questions both other events,

1938
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:11,719
Speaker 5: we will be having mass requirements and at the event

1939
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:14,840
Speaker 5: to make sure the immunal compromise people are not being excluded.

1940
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:16,080
Speaker 5: I want to make that clear.

1941
01:50:16,920 --> 01:50:18,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is this is like you know, so

1942
01:50:18,520 --> 01:50:20,600
Speaker 3: I like the last one from my understanding, you like,

1943
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:21,960
Speaker 3: you know it was it was a bunch of it

1944
01:50:22,000 --> 01:50:23,879
Speaker 3: was bunch of people like camping in the dunes basically,

1945
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:26,920
Speaker 3: And is this one also going to be sort of

1946
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:28,400
Speaker 3: like mostly an outdoor thing.

1947
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's going to be We're not just going

1948
01:50:31,640 --> 01:50:33,559
Speaker 5: to say the location here, you can find that out

1949
01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:41,640
Speaker 5: through registering, but the location is just near Chicago and

1950
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:45,160
Speaker 5: it's similarly outside. It's a big open space, not a

1951
01:50:45,200 --> 01:50:49,439
Speaker 5: lot of trees, which is sad this year. But yeah,

1952
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:52,000
Speaker 5: it'll be mostly camping, but there's cabins and people can

1953
01:50:52,040 --> 01:50:53,559
Speaker 5: stand hotels nearby also.

1954
01:50:54,560 --> 01:50:56,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess okay, we've thought, we've talked a

1955
01:50:56,720 --> 01:50:59,920
Speaker 3: bit about what dual power is and sort of building

1956
01:51:00,040 --> 01:51:03,000
Speaker 3: this kind of counterpower and building you know, like and

1957
01:51:03,120 --> 01:51:04,519
Speaker 3: like I I guess I just want to say a

1958
01:51:04,560 --> 01:51:07,600
Speaker 3: little bit like these are like dual power institutions are

1959
01:51:07,720 --> 01:51:10,040
Speaker 3: just a lot of the things that you know, just

1960
01:51:10,400 --> 01:51:13,120
Speaker 3: we talk about building or like people you know or

1961
01:51:13,280 --> 01:51:14,920
Speaker 3: we've been involved in building and there's these are these

1962
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 3: these can be things like tennis unions like different like

1963
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:21,480
Speaker 3: different well different like regular unions like caucuses and unions,

1964
01:51:21,840 --> 01:51:25,040
Speaker 3: uh like mutual aid networks like worker centers, and so

1965
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:26,519
Speaker 3: there's there's you know, there's all sorts of things that

1966
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:29,920
Speaker 3: can be involved in this. But so now now now

1967
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:33,080
Speaker 3: having gotten we've gotten through dual power, we've sort of

1968
01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:37,160
Speaker 3: gotten through gathering, but we should should Yeah, I want

1969
01:51:37,160 --> 01:51:39,040
Speaker 3: to ask a bit more about like what what Okay,

1970
01:51:39,080 --> 01:51:41,400
Speaker 3: what what happens at the thing when you go to it?

1971
01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:42,840
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1972
01:51:43,320 --> 01:51:48,720
Speaker 9: So it's built on the unconference model of doing things,

1973
01:51:48,760 --> 01:51:52,120
Speaker 9: which in essence is able to kind of counteract the

1974
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:54,880
Speaker 9: idea that we need to have a sort of structured

1975
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:58,200
Speaker 9: event that's you know, you do this at this point,

1976
01:51:58,280 --> 01:51:59,840
Speaker 9: you do this at this point, you do this at

1977
01:51:59,880 --> 01:52:05,759
Speaker 9: the point. Instead, is meant to be built more towards

1978
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 9: libertarian socialist principles, and it is where people are able

1979
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:16,559
Speaker 9: to kind of build their own agenda from the start

1980
01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:19,320
Speaker 9: of the event and kind of structure their day how

1981
01:52:19,400 --> 01:52:23,479
Speaker 9: they want to. So you can talk to these people

1982
01:52:23,560 --> 01:52:28,160
Speaker 9: to go to a skill sharing event on stop the

1983
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:30,439
Speaker 9: Bleed training, you can talk to these people to go

1984
01:52:30,560 --> 01:52:37,080
Speaker 9: to a skill share event on how to facilitate meetings.

1985
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:39,920
Speaker 9: You can talk to these folk to learn a bit

1986
01:52:39,960 --> 01:52:43,200
Speaker 9: about anarchist history. You know, just all these different things

1987
01:52:43,240 --> 01:52:47,200
Speaker 9: that can be formatted however that you may so choose,

1988
01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:51,040
Speaker 9: and that are all kind of happening at the discretion

1989
01:52:51,160 --> 01:52:56,040
Speaker 9: of people who are involved. So it's very much so

1990
01:52:56,439 --> 01:52:59,720
Speaker 9: just up to you to build your own day, and

1991
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:01,479
Speaker 9: of course you can also talk to other people there

1992
01:53:01,479 --> 01:53:04,639
Speaker 9: if you need some help. Plenty of the organizers involved

1993
01:53:04,640 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 9: are more than willing to help out and you know,

1994
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:12,439
Speaker 9: lend people a hand in figuring out where everything is

1995
01:53:12,560 --> 01:53:14,519
Speaker 9: and what they might want to do and what other

1996
01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:16,960
Speaker 9: people are doing start their day around. But at the core,

1997
01:53:17,240 --> 01:53:22,560
Speaker 9: you know, it's built around individual choice, autonomy and just

1998
01:53:22,720 --> 01:53:26,200
Speaker 9: a non hierarchical method of going about it.

1999
01:53:26,920 --> 01:53:28,639
Speaker 5: So I can talk a little bit more about how

2000
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:34,240
Speaker 5: that looked practically from last year. So the first night

2001
01:53:34,360 --> 01:53:36,160
Speaker 5: I wasn't there, so I can't talk much about that,

2002
01:53:36,320 --> 01:53:39,360
Speaker 5: but it was just mostly getting to know everybody. People

2003
01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 5: were coming and throughout the night because work and all

2004
01:53:45,400 --> 01:53:49,720
Speaker 5: that on a Friday. But then that Saturday, after breakfast,

2005
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:51,920
Speaker 5: which I don't even remember, it was like oat meal

2006
01:53:52,040 --> 01:53:55,439
Speaker 5: or something, we got together in this assembly area and

2007
01:53:55,840 --> 01:54:00,200
Speaker 5: brought out whiteboards and marked out days and people just

2008
01:54:00,280 --> 01:54:02,200
Speaker 5: stuck up what they wanted to talk about in a

2009
01:54:02,280 --> 01:54:07,960
Speaker 5: session on the board in a time slot, and then

2010
01:54:08,880 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 5: we got everyone to figure out, you know, which ones

2011
01:54:12,120 --> 01:54:14,080
Speaker 5: of these can be condensed. You know, do two people

2012
01:54:14,280 --> 01:54:17,200
Speaker 5: have similar ideas, can they talk about how they might

2013
01:54:17,280 --> 01:54:22,800
Speaker 5: want to have a session together, And then people just

2014
01:54:23,080 --> 01:54:25,120
Speaker 5: chose which sessions to go to. We kept the whiteboards

2015
01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:27,120
Speaker 5: up so people could see what was going on and where,

2016
01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:31,799
Speaker 5: and that worked out pretty well. I think the biggest

2017
01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:34,600
Speaker 5: concern from that was people wanted to go to everything.

2018
01:54:35,960 --> 01:54:37,640
Speaker 5: We simply did not have time, and they were like,

2019
01:54:37,680 --> 01:54:39,360
Speaker 5: can we make this a week And I think that's

2020
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:44,520
Speaker 5: pushing it money wise. It's expensive enough to rent a

2021
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:47,000
Speaker 5: campsite for a weekend, but it has.

2022
01:54:46,960 --> 01:54:48,760
Speaker 3: Like just a bunch of land they have sitting around

2023
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:49,920
Speaker 3: they want to give to us for this.

2024
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:54,080
Speaker 5: If you can, if you can make whatever ranch or

2025
01:54:54,200 --> 01:54:58,400
Speaker 5: farm you have like accessible for people, then yes, please

2026
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:01,040
Speaker 5: reach out future gatherings.

2027
01:55:02,000 --> 01:55:03,160
Speaker 4: But the.

2028
01:55:04,800 --> 01:55:10,960
Speaker 5: Most important part I think was that the gathering model

2029
01:55:11,080 --> 01:55:16,800
Speaker 5: allowed all different groups there who had similar interests. For example,

2030
01:55:17,280 --> 01:55:22,240
Speaker 5: there was a POC caucus to self organize. There's also

2031
01:55:22,360 --> 01:55:25,480
Speaker 5: like a sex workers group. They were able to come

2032
01:55:25,520 --> 01:55:28,000
Speaker 5: together on their own figure out what's going on. And

2033
01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:32,200
Speaker 5: it wasn't based on what organizers thought was important. It

2034
01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:36,400
Speaker 5: was based on what participants thought was important. And I

2035
01:55:36,480 --> 01:55:38,800
Speaker 5: think that also facilitated a lot of networking. You were

2036
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:45,520
Speaker 5: able to see, hey, there's a DIY medicine circle going

2037
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:47,080
Speaker 5: on in this camp site. Well I'm going to go

2038
01:55:47,160 --> 01:55:48,720
Speaker 5: maybe stop by. I might not say the whole time,

2039
01:55:48,720 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 5: but I'm gonna check it out. See if I'm interested,

2040
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:55,240
Speaker 5: see if I like I like the people there, And

2041
01:55:56,600 --> 01:56:02,320
Speaker 5: it allowed for especially newer folks to interact with veterans

2042
01:56:02,680 --> 01:56:08,120
Speaker 5: veteran activists and just engage with stuff they might have

2043
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:13,680
Speaker 5: only felt uh interested in slightly and actually get involved

2044
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:19,120
Speaker 5: and contribute. So yeah, that that's how it practically went

2045
01:56:19,320 --> 01:56:22,960
Speaker 5: for the unconference, And we didn't hear that many complaints

2046
01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:27,360
Speaker 5: about it, except that it maybe sometimes sessions were not

2047
01:56:27,520 --> 01:56:29,800
Speaker 5: time like the time was too short or too long,

2048
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:34,240
Speaker 5: or that it wasn't like a week or two.

2049
01:56:38,480 --> 01:56:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, and then that that's stuff

2050
01:56:40,240 --> 01:56:43,920
Speaker 3: that likes, especially the first time you're running an event

2051
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 3: like stuff, Stuff like that happens, and you know, we

2052
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 3: can okay, this is I have not an enormous amount

2053
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:55,960
Speaker 3: of experience running like panels and stuff, but like I've

2054
01:56:56,000 --> 01:57:00,160
Speaker 3: done it, and it's like god, getting the timing rights

2055
01:57:00,200 --> 01:57:03,040
Speaker 3: really hard and very annoying, but it's you know, this,

2056
01:57:03,280 --> 01:57:06,240
Speaker 3: this is a this is a thing that subsequent events

2057
01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:08,520
Speaker 3: will can and will sort of iterate on and get

2058
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:11,680
Speaker 3: better at because you know, I guess what what what

2059
01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:13,240
Speaker 3: what what of One of the things that we are

2060
01:57:13,320 --> 01:57:15,400
Speaker 3: in fact learning at these is how to do these

2061
01:57:15,520 --> 01:57:19,040
Speaker 3: things that you know, I guess in this way hasn't

2062
01:57:19,080 --> 01:57:19,680
Speaker 3: been done before.

2063
01:57:20,440 --> 01:57:23,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's not i mean not technically not been

2064
01:57:23,040 --> 01:57:25,440
Speaker 5: done before, but not done it this way. Yeah, right,

2065
01:57:25,800 --> 01:57:29,520
Speaker 5: like like there's crime, think convergences or like the bashback.

2066
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:33,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, well I think it's an interesting thing

2067
01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:36,840
Speaker 3: too on a sort of like I don't know, I

2068
01:57:37,240 --> 01:57:38,720
Speaker 3: think I think there's a way in which this is

2069
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:40,800
Speaker 3: in some sense kind of getting back to like older

2070
01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:45,880
Speaker 3: like models of anarchists organizing that kind of like I'm

2071
01:57:45,880 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 3: not gonna say they disappeared, but there's been sort of

2072
01:57:48,880 --> 01:57:52,160
Speaker 3: less of them due to like, you know, we just

2073
01:57:52,200 --> 01:57:54,520
Speaker 3: sort of like political shifts and like shifts the white

2074
01:57:54,520 --> 01:57:57,080
Speaker 3: people organized and like just what kinds of stuff were

2075
01:57:57,120 --> 01:58:01,000
Speaker 3: happening at any given time, and so you know, and

2076
01:58:01,040 --> 01:58:02,800
Speaker 3: I think that the consequence of this is a lot

2077
01:58:02,800 --> 01:58:05,400
Speaker 3: of people sort of relearning or you know, relearning and

2078
01:58:05,520 --> 01:58:12,280
Speaker 3: inventing things that like had been known. But you know, ever,

2079
01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:15,040
Speaker 3: everyone's working through it together, and you know, it turns

2080
01:58:15,080 --> 01:58:18,320
Speaker 3: out we're like we're pretty good at building things.

2081
01:58:19,200 --> 01:58:19,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2082
01:58:20,920 --> 01:58:23,960
Speaker 9: Yeah. Like one thing that I think is really cool

2083
01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:28,960
Speaker 9: about DPG that kind of shines through is seeing how

2084
01:58:30,040 --> 01:58:33,440
Speaker 9: something like building an event like this, Like when I

2085
01:58:33,600 --> 01:58:36,600
Speaker 9: first got involved, you know, I pictured building an event

2086
01:58:36,720 --> 01:58:38,000
Speaker 9: like this is a huge ordeal.

2087
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:39,480
Speaker 2: You know it was.

2088
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:43,720
Speaker 9: You needed all these big connections, You needed to know

2089
01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:45,360
Speaker 9: a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy,

2090
01:58:45,600 --> 01:58:51,240
Speaker 9: and needed so many different resources at your disposal. It

2091
01:58:51,400 --> 01:58:54,120
Speaker 9: never really hit me that this could be something that

2092
01:58:54,360 --> 01:58:57,520
Speaker 9: just regular people could just up and decide to do.

2093
01:58:58,000 --> 01:58:59,240
Speaker 9: It's not to say it doesn't take a lot of

2094
01:58:59,280 --> 01:59:02,800
Speaker 9: effort and work. It does, but it's still ultimately something

2095
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:06,040
Speaker 9: that is in the power of people to do if

2096
01:59:06,080 --> 01:59:09,480
Speaker 9: they really set themselves onto it and are able to

2097
01:59:10,240 --> 01:59:15,120
Speaker 9: find enough helping hands, both physically and in terms of

2098
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 9: the actual event. So it's like it's really cool to

2099
01:59:18,520 --> 01:59:23,160
Speaker 9: see just everyone coming together in the organizing process and

2100
01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:26,600
Speaker 9: it just being a very organic, natural thing. It's like,

2101
01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:30,840
Speaker 9: I don't know, you see it a lot with like

2102
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:36,720
Speaker 9: other specific events I've done food not bomb stuff, and

2103
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:40,600
Speaker 9: I've seen it there too, but like it's different, but

2104
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:44,680
Speaker 9: it's something that you typically for see, at least I

2105
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:48,560
Speaker 9: did for sea as like, oh, you know, building a

2106
01:59:48,680 --> 01:59:53,200
Speaker 9: whole weekend long event, you know you need, yeah to

2107
01:59:53,240 --> 01:59:55,520
Speaker 9: have corporate big shots doing that, you know, how can

2108
01:59:55,560 --> 01:59:56,920
Speaker 9: you expect the little guys to do that?

2109
02:00:00,160 --> 02:00:03,640
Speaker 5: And Yeah, it's also cool to see people just jump

2110
02:00:03,720 --> 02:00:06,360
Speaker 5: in and help who might not even have other organizing

2111
02:00:06,400 --> 02:00:11,200
Speaker 5: experience that this last year too, near the end of

2112
02:00:11,400 --> 02:00:13,600
Speaker 5: the planning for the gathering, there were so many people

2113
02:00:13,680 --> 02:00:18,320
Speaker 5: joining little circles on planning food and transportation logistics and

2114
02:00:18,400 --> 02:00:24,960
Speaker 5: how can I contribute? And I think the resounding result

2115
02:00:25,680 --> 02:00:28,360
Speaker 5: was people finding political hope. That was a term I

2116
02:00:28,440 --> 02:00:32,480
Speaker 5: heard a lot from from individuals who both went and

2117
02:00:32,600 --> 02:00:35,360
Speaker 5: helped organize the last one. And we're hoping to create

2118
02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:37,480
Speaker 5: a similar, similar thing this time.

2119
02:00:37,960 --> 02:00:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's something that like I think I think

2120
02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:43,920
Speaker 3: everyone can use a bit more of right now. In

2121
02:00:44,000 --> 02:00:46,360
Speaker 3: a sort of in a very sort of depressing and bleak,

2122
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:49,640
Speaker 3: like there's there's a lot of bad there's a lot

2123
02:00:49,640 --> 02:00:53,000
Speaker 3: of bad stuff happening and the ability to generate hope,

2124
02:00:53,040 --> 02:00:54,120
Speaker 3: and I you know, you could even think of it

2125
02:00:54,160 --> 02:00:56,120
Speaker 3: as sort of in just in terms of like morale, right,

2126
02:00:56,320 --> 02:01:00,440
Speaker 3: Like it's it's really really, really hard to actually achieve

2127
02:01:00,520 --> 02:01:03,320
Speaker 3: or change anything if everyone has just sort of given

2128
02:01:03,400 --> 02:01:06,200
Speaker 3: up already, and you know, like being around other people

2129
02:01:06,320 --> 02:01:08,720
Speaker 3: and being like planning events with people and doing stuff

2130
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:12,520
Speaker 3: with people like is a very very good way to

2131
02:01:12,960 --> 02:01:14,840
Speaker 3: you know, just sort of break the kind of like

2132
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:21,600
Speaker 3: existential dread and like depression of like living and you know,

2133
02:01:21,720 --> 02:01:24,480
Speaker 3: sort of hopelessness of like living in in in this

2134
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:28,160
Speaker 3: like disaster that we've all been thrown into.

2135
02:01:29,520 --> 02:01:35,360
Speaker 5: Yeah. Something that somebody had mentioned at the last gathering

2136
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:40,040
Speaker 5: that really stuck with me was that because of the

2137
02:01:40,280 --> 02:01:46,000
Speaker 5: uprising and COVID, most leptist organizing was formed through trauma bonding. Yeah,

2138
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:49,240
Speaker 5: and it was really nice to form relationships outside of

2139
02:01:49,320 --> 02:01:56,520
Speaker 5: traumatic incidents and they felt longer lasting and much safer

2140
02:01:57,040 --> 02:01:59,920
Speaker 5: than relationships built during crisis.

2141
02:02:00,040 --> 02:02:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think, you know, I mean, I think,

2142
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:05,360
Speaker 3: like I think that's just sort of important along those

2143
02:02:05,440 --> 02:02:10,040
Speaker 3: lines to remember is that like like building relationships, there's

2144
02:02:10,080 --> 02:02:12,520
Speaker 3: a decent extent to which that's just all organizing is.

2145
02:02:13,520 --> 02:02:13,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2146
02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's it's not all organizing is, but

2147
02:02:16,000 --> 02:02:17,760
Speaker 3: it's it's a really important part of it. And the

2148
02:02:17,960 --> 02:02:20,360
Speaker 3: way that people are able to do this, especially in

2149
02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:23,360
Speaker 3: the wake of a bunch of like, you know, i mean,

2150
02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:25,960
Speaker 3: really sort of traumatic and horrible experiences people went through,

2151
02:02:26,120 --> 02:02:29,440
Speaker 3: Like yeah, glad we have a better way to do this.

2152
02:02:31,000 --> 02:02:36,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like, stuff like this is essentially well of some

2153
02:02:36,480 --> 02:02:38,560
Speaker 9: of the only things that give me a sense of

2154
02:02:38,600 --> 02:02:42,280
Speaker 9: optimism for the future, because those who know me know

2155
02:02:42,440 --> 02:02:47,920
Speaker 9: I tend to be a very pessimistic person. I don't

2156
02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:53,080
Speaker 9: look at current events, to put it concisely, and say, oh, wow,

2157
02:02:53,320 --> 02:02:55,240
Speaker 9: things are going pretty topsy turvy out there.

2158
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:57,160
Speaker 4: I'm so.

2159
02:02:57,920 --> 02:03:00,720
Speaker 9: But when we have stuff like this going on that's

2160
02:03:02,080 --> 02:03:07,200
Speaker 9: just built at the level of, hey, where people trying

2161
02:03:07,320 --> 02:03:14,120
Speaker 9: to make things better and prevent the chaos from the

2162
02:03:14,200 --> 02:03:19,040
Speaker 9: outside world and the world around us from just consuming everything,

2163
02:03:19,280 --> 02:03:23,400
Speaker 9: It's like it gives a nice sense of community and

2164
02:03:23,440 --> 02:03:25,080
Speaker 9: a nice sense of hey, we're not alone in this,

2165
02:03:25,360 --> 02:03:29,360
Speaker 9: and that maybe tomorrow things will be a little bit

2166
02:03:29,400 --> 02:03:30,360
Speaker 9: better than they were today.

2167
02:03:31,040 --> 02:03:35,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's especially important in my opinion. I the first

2168
02:03:35,680 --> 02:03:38,800
Speaker 5: gathering I was not living in a city as I

2169
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:41,640
Speaker 5: do now. I was livingd in not a city that

2170
02:03:43,040 --> 02:03:44,680
Speaker 5: people in big cities would call a city.

2171
02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:48,200
Speaker 3: I was in Nebraska, and I was gonna make a

2172
02:03:48,320 --> 02:03:58,280
Speaker 3: joke about Davenport or something, and that's kind of favorite Daport. Yeah.

2173
02:03:58,400 --> 02:04:03,240
Speaker 5: So being able to meet other rural organizers in various places,

2174
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:07,120
Speaker 5: especially honestly the Appalachia region, which I did not realize

2175
02:04:07,720 --> 02:04:13,800
Speaker 5: was so related in their struggles, was important because no

2176
02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:17,520
Speaker 5: matter how much I wanted to network, it wasn't really

2177
02:04:17,560 --> 02:04:20,800
Speaker 5: that opportunity as much as there is in cities. And

2178
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:25,120
Speaker 5: in cities there's a doesn't mean you're necessarily meeting more

2179
02:04:25,200 --> 02:04:28,280
Speaker 5: people or people that you necessarily would like to organize with.

2180
02:04:30,080 --> 02:04:34,440
Speaker 5: There's just there's often more need and not necessarily more anarchists.

2181
02:04:35,080 --> 02:04:38,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I mean, you know, it's something that

2182
02:04:38,480 --> 02:04:42,680
Speaker 3: we've talked about before, but we've basically built it. Well okay,

2183
02:04:42,720 --> 02:04:45,360
Speaker 3: well I say we didn't really build this, but the

2184
02:04:45,360 --> 02:04:47,960
Speaker 3: whole story we lived in the social system that we

2185
02:04:48,080 --> 02:04:50,800
Speaker 3: live in has been built sort of very specifically and

2186
02:04:50,920 --> 02:04:54,440
Speaker 3: very deliberately to isolate people. And yeah, and you know,

2187
02:04:55,440 --> 02:04:58,040
Speaker 3: the sort of functions in different ways depending on sort

2188
02:04:58,040 --> 02:05:03,520
Speaker 3: of geography and regional stuff. But yeah, like I think

2189
02:05:03,560 --> 02:05:05,560
Speaker 3: I think this is you know, an important tool to

2190
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:08,680
Speaker 3: sort of break that and to bring people together and

2191
02:05:08,760 --> 02:05:12,280
Speaker 3: to bring like I don't know, like I think I

2192
02:05:12,320 --> 02:05:14,080
Speaker 3: think like another part of this we haven't talked about

2193
02:05:14,080 --> 02:05:17,520
Speaker 3: as much as like just like really incredible things happen

2194
02:05:17,600 --> 02:05:22,160
Speaker 3: when you bring people together from struggles that like turn

2195
02:05:22,240 --> 02:05:27,160
Speaker 3: out to be very similar, but like aren't like aren't

2196
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,520
Speaker 3: usually involved with each other, Like aren't you sort of

2197
02:05:30,600 --> 02:05:34,440
Speaker 3: like not like I haven't been able to sort of

2198
02:05:34,520 --> 02:05:37,120
Speaker 3: like link up before. You get very sort of like

2199
02:05:38,040 --> 02:05:39,720
Speaker 3: I don't know, you get a lot of really interesting

2200
02:05:40,720 --> 02:05:43,200
Speaker 3: sort of like ideas and strategic stuff from it.

2201
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:46,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like.

2202
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:54,320
Speaker 9: One thing that I've noticed, especially and because I've done

2203
02:05:54,440 --> 02:06:00,360
Speaker 9: a lot of small town rule organizing, is that you

2204
02:06:00,440 --> 02:06:05,880
Speaker 9: can kind of easily develop like very isolated communities and

2205
02:06:06,120 --> 02:06:13,600
Speaker 9: isolated radical cultures and like specific regions. And it's not

2206
02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:16,600
Speaker 9: a great pitfall to fall into because you miss out

2207
02:06:16,680 --> 02:06:18,840
Speaker 9: on law of developments that might happen else sort of

2208
02:06:19,000 --> 02:06:21,120
Speaker 9: nice out a lot of other things that might happening

2209
02:06:22,200 --> 02:06:26,640
Speaker 9: in other regions, and even beyond just regions, going into

2210
02:06:27,000 --> 02:06:36,640
Speaker 9: specific intersectional issues like different different organizers who might focus

2211
02:06:36,640 --> 02:06:43,640
Speaker 9: specifically on racism versus corphobia, versus ableism. There's all things

2212
02:06:43,680 --> 02:06:47,760
Speaker 9: to learn from each other. Yeah, there's all interconnectedness, and

2213
02:06:47,800 --> 02:06:51,880
Speaker 9: when you tie that into interconnectedness of different regions, there's

2214
02:06:52,000 --> 02:06:53,720
Speaker 9: just a big need for things to be kind of

2215
02:06:53,840 --> 02:06:57,720
Speaker 9: like a large web of connectivity instead of just you know,

2216
02:06:58,560 --> 02:07:04,760
Speaker 9: oh things are kept separate and now we're stuck developing

2217
02:07:04,800 --> 02:07:05,280
Speaker 9: on a road.

2218
02:07:05,520 --> 02:07:09,360
Speaker 3: And that's that's another fun Yeah, and you know what,

2219
02:07:09,680 --> 02:07:13,000
Speaker 3: I guess circling the sort of back around to the

2220
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:16,879
Speaker 3: specific event. The thing that y'all are doing to combat

2221
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:20,320
Speaker 3: this is the is the Dual Power Gathering Midwest. So

2222
02:07:20,400 --> 02:07:23,480
Speaker 3: I wanted to talk a little bit about like, well, okay,

2223
02:07:23,920 --> 02:07:26,520
Speaker 3: when is this happening and also what are the plans

2224
02:07:26,560 --> 02:07:28,920
Speaker 3: so far for what it's going to look like and

2225
02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:31,120
Speaker 3: what people are going to be doing.

2226
02:07:32,200 --> 02:07:37,720
Speaker 5: So it's August seventeenth through twentieth, and this year is

2227
02:07:37,760 --> 02:07:42,400
Speaker 5: going to be pretty similar to last year. And you

2228
02:07:42,520 --> 02:07:46,480
Speaker 5: can also look at Dual Power West, which had their

2229
02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:49,960
Speaker 5: gathering earlier this summer. There's a good if you go

2230
02:07:50,040 --> 02:07:54,440
Speaker 5: to Sabo Media I think it's Sabomedia dot no blogs

2231
02:07:55,480 --> 02:07:59,560
Speaker 5: dot org or whatever. The no blogs addresses. You can

2232
02:07:59,600 --> 02:08:03,080
Speaker 5: look it up. They did a good report back on

2233
02:08:03,320 --> 02:08:07,840
Speaker 5: how that went, and we'll also have a documentary if

2234
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:08,680
Speaker 5: people want to learn more.

2235
02:08:08,840 --> 02:08:11,640
Speaker 3: Sorry, that's sidetracked, but we'll put links to that in

2236
02:08:11,640 --> 02:08:12,080
Speaker 3: the description.

2237
02:08:13,040 --> 02:08:15,400
Speaker 9: So right now we're soliciting a lot of people to

2238
02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:17,640
Speaker 9: come and bring what they have to offer to the table.

2239
02:08:18,120 --> 02:08:19,880
Speaker 2: We are.

2240
02:08:21,800 --> 02:08:25,720
Speaker 9: In the end stages of setting everything up and getting

2241
02:08:25,720 --> 02:08:29,960
Speaker 9: everything connected, and part of that is we want people

2242
02:08:30,200 --> 02:08:33,320
Speaker 9: to bring over what they want to share, you know, skills,

2243
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:37,720
Speaker 9: they want to share cool things they've learned about leftist history,

2244
02:08:38,520 --> 02:08:41,480
Speaker 9: things that are important to know for modern day society,

2245
02:08:42,560 --> 02:08:47,240
Speaker 9: intersectional issues, discussions, basically anything that people could think of

2246
02:08:47,320 --> 02:08:51,360
Speaker 9: that might be worthwhile. Come on over, bring it in.

2247
02:08:51,560 --> 02:08:53,760
Speaker 9: We'd love to talk to people and hear more about it.

2248
02:08:54,920 --> 02:08:58,800
Speaker 9: So in terms of specific so we might have planned

2249
02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:02,960
Speaker 9: at is where we're currently at. We're aiming for it

2250
02:09:03,080 --> 02:09:07,600
Speaker 9: to be like last year in that it's a skill

2251
02:09:07,680 --> 02:09:10,600
Speaker 9: share event and a discussion. It's, like I said, of

2252
02:09:10,640 --> 02:09:17,480
Speaker 9: discussions and just a way for people to share what

2253
02:09:17,560 --> 02:09:20,760
Speaker 9: they know with each other. And a few of us

2254
02:09:20,880 --> 02:09:23,120
Speaker 9: currently involved, you know, we all have our own ideas.

2255
02:09:23,240 --> 02:09:28,880
Speaker 9: I personally want to talk about unions and kind of

2256
02:09:29,280 --> 02:09:35,560
Speaker 9: be like, hey, unionize your workplace, but that's more so

2257
02:09:35,800 --> 02:09:38,280
Speaker 9: just me, and that it could be up to anyone,

2258
02:09:38,600 --> 02:09:40,280
Speaker 9: but what they want to do, kind of building off

2259
02:09:40,520 --> 02:09:45,520
Speaker 9: the Young conference model. It's if people want it, and

2260
02:09:46,200 --> 02:09:49,320
Speaker 9: you know, it's not like how to be a fascist

2261
02:09:49,440 --> 02:09:51,680
Speaker 9: one on one, then it's welcome.

2262
02:09:52,280 --> 02:09:55,440
Speaker 5: Some things we predict that will happen at the gathering

2263
02:09:55,840 --> 02:09:59,320
Speaker 5: will probably be circles on trans healthcare and abortion care

2264
02:09:59,720 --> 02:10:02,520
Speaker 5: give in recent events, well it doesn't even it's not

2265
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:09,760
Speaker 5: really recent feeling anymore. But that plus, I think much

2266
02:10:09,840 --> 02:10:16,760
Speaker 5: more community defense is coming up because of those and

2267
02:10:17,320 --> 02:10:22,240
Speaker 5: I think as always there's all the DIY folks who

2268
02:10:22,320 --> 02:10:26,480
Speaker 5: come in last year pretty cool and I might overemphasize

2269
02:10:26,520 --> 02:10:29,720
Speaker 5: how much that's a part because I'm also one of

2270
02:10:29,760 --> 02:10:33,320
Speaker 5: those DIY people. It's a problem and an addiction at

2271
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:38,520
Speaker 5: this point, but like you know, people who wanted to

2272
02:10:38,640 --> 02:10:43,640
Speaker 5: just build their own car, it's cool stuff. Yeah. The

2273
02:10:44,640 --> 02:10:50,720
Speaker 5: the random expertise of people coming was wonderful, and that

2274
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:54,040
Speaker 5: all came together in ways I don't think anyone could

2275
02:10:54,040 --> 02:10:58,760
Speaker 5: have predicted, like literally the showing how to use batteries

2276
02:10:58,920 --> 02:11:03,560
Speaker 5: and how to like in a correct way chaining them education.

2277
02:11:03,760 --> 02:11:08,080
Speaker 5: I have an engineering degree. A lot of this stuff

2278
02:11:08,200 --> 02:11:09,880
Speaker 5: was so new to me in a very good way,

2279
02:11:12,120 --> 02:11:18,440
Speaker 5: and I hope that similar people come back. We can

2280
02:11:18,520 --> 02:11:24,800
Speaker 5: never predict. Leftists are wild. You never know if they're

2281
02:11:24,840 --> 02:11:27,160
Speaker 5: going to take to something. If we don't even know

2282
02:11:27,200 --> 02:11:30,400
Speaker 5: if certain people liked it because they just dropped off

2283
02:11:30,440 --> 02:11:34,840
Speaker 5: the map because they were, you know, just walking to

2284
02:11:35,040 --> 02:11:43,640
Speaker 5: Denver or something after the gathering. But I think the

2285
02:11:43,760 --> 02:11:53,240
Speaker 5: gathering is our focus has been on getting people to network,

2286
02:11:54,320 --> 02:11:58,760
Speaker 5: and so I think what we've planned besides food, which

2287
02:12:01,200 --> 02:12:03,720
Speaker 5: I think we can talk about in a second, is

2288
02:12:05,480 --> 02:12:09,200
Speaker 5: just making sure people come away with the relationships we've

2289
02:12:09,240 --> 02:12:13,400
Speaker 5: talked so much about already, and trying to give people

2290
02:12:13,480 --> 02:12:18,360
Speaker 5: the opportunities explicitly to socialize, because we also know that

2291
02:12:19,440 --> 02:12:26,640
Speaker 5: people tend to be not veries friendly when approached in

2292
02:12:26,800 --> 02:12:30,320
Speaker 5: maybe every day organizing, even though you say they should be. Maybe,

2293
02:12:30,480 --> 02:12:35,080
Speaker 5: but life stressful, and I don't blame people, So we're

2294
02:12:35,120 --> 02:12:39,760
Speaker 5: trying to make it a very friendly environment for talking

2295
02:12:39,880 --> 02:12:43,960
Speaker 5: to other people and trying to maybe make that the

2296
02:12:44,080 --> 02:12:47,080
Speaker 5: only other structured thing in the day besides meals.

2297
02:12:49,040 --> 02:12:50,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I guess I should also say that, like,

2298
02:12:51,240 --> 02:12:53,320
Speaker 3: if you can do something cool and you want to

2299
02:12:53,400 --> 02:12:56,280
Speaker 3: go show people that, I mean something cool. You should

2300
02:12:56,320 --> 02:12:58,280
Speaker 3: in fact do this because it rips.

2301
02:13:00,200 --> 02:13:09,320
Speaker 9: Please, yes, just for me, like, please come and show

2302
02:13:09,440 --> 02:13:13,520
Speaker 9: us some cool stuff, like there is so much opportunity

2303
02:13:13,600 --> 02:13:14,560
Speaker 9: for amazing things.

2304
02:13:15,800 --> 02:13:18,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess you know, speaking of amazing things, Yeah,

2305
02:13:18,400 --> 02:13:21,320
Speaker 3: we should talk about food a little bit because you know,

2306
02:13:21,840 --> 02:13:24,480
Speaker 3: food important part of all human societies.

2307
02:13:27,000 --> 02:13:32,560
Speaker 9: So for food, we're aiming for it to be petered.

2308
02:13:32,680 --> 02:13:41,440
Speaker 9: Vegan food from local restaurants along with various cooked meals

2309
02:13:41,520 --> 02:13:45,240
Speaker 9: as well is what we're kind of shooting for. So

2310
02:13:46,760 --> 02:13:51,200
Speaker 9: we're going to be covering three meals a day breakfast, lunch,

2311
02:13:51,240 --> 02:13:56,520
Speaker 9: and dinner, and aiming to have enough to cover everyone

2312
02:13:56,760 --> 02:13:59,480
Speaker 9: for the three days of the gathering.

2313
02:14:00,360 --> 02:14:04,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and if food we have doesn't work, we also

2314
02:14:04,440 --> 02:14:07,000
Speaker 5: have plans to make sure that we can accommodate people.

2315
02:14:07,280 --> 02:14:10,040
Speaker 5: This is not far from other It's not like out

2316
02:14:10,080 --> 02:14:12,640
Speaker 5: in the middle of nowhere. We'll be able to access

2317
02:14:13,400 --> 02:14:19,360
Speaker 5: various stores and stuff. A lot of the gatherings would

2318
02:14:20,080 --> 02:14:24,800
Speaker 5: rely on the typical way of just having I don't know,

2319
02:14:25,440 --> 02:14:28,560
Speaker 5: some gatherings just have the food happen. They just say, well,

2320
02:14:29,000 --> 02:14:33,360
Speaker 5: foods on the group and that's fun and all, but

2321
02:14:33,560 --> 02:14:35,600
Speaker 5: we also want to ensure.

2322
02:14:35,240 --> 02:14:38,960
Speaker 3: That there is food and that there's like vegan for people,

2323
02:14:38,960 --> 02:14:43,440
Speaker 3: which is absolutely yeah, and stuff like that. Do you

2324
02:14:43,520 --> 02:14:45,240
Speaker 3: do you have anything else that you want to talk

2325
02:14:45,240 --> 02:14:47,560
Speaker 3: about about the event before we close out.

2326
02:14:48,760 --> 02:14:48,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2327
02:14:49,080 --> 02:14:52,360
Speaker 9: I'll just say too that we are aiming for this

2328
02:14:52,480 --> 02:14:56,400
Speaker 9: event to be accessible to folk with disabilities, folks with children,

2329
02:14:58,920 --> 02:15:01,680
Speaker 9: essentially to anyone and everyone would be interested if we

2330
02:15:01,680 --> 02:15:05,080
Speaker 9: want to be accessible. On our website we talk a

2331
02:15:05,120 --> 02:15:08,240
Speaker 9: bit more in detail about the specific ways in which

2332
02:15:08,320 --> 02:15:13,800
Speaker 9: the site itself is divisibility accessible, and we also invite

2333
02:15:13,880 --> 02:15:18,720
Speaker 9: folk to if there's any suggestions, concerns, anything of the

2334
02:15:18,840 --> 02:15:21,400
Speaker 9: sort for how we can make this more accessible for people,

2335
02:15:21,520 --> 02:15:24,560
Speaker 9: more welcoming, more open. We invite people to come and

2336
02:15:24,600 --> 02:15:29,600
Speaker 9: let us know. We're still learning and still trying to

2337
02:15:29,680 --> 02:15:34,240
Speaker 9: do this better. So anything we can improve upon, please

2338
02:15:34,320 --> 02:15:37,200
Speaker 9: let us know, because we want to do right by folk.

2339
02:15:38,000 --> 02:15:40,920
Speaker 5: And on the note of families and kids, youth are

2340
02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:46,600
Speaker 5: absolutely welcome. We have some families in well, some parents

2341
02:15:46,640 --> 02:15:51,640
Speaker 5: specifically in the organizing right now. We hope we want

2342
02:15:51,720 --> 02:15:53,960
Speaker 5: kids to be able to be as involved as they

2343
02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:58,840
Speaker 5: want to be. Last year, I think that it ended

2344
02:15:58,920 --> 02:16:00,840
Speaker 5: up working out with the kids that were there, and

2345
02:16:00,960 --> 02:16:03,760
Speaker 5: they're amazing and you can see that in the documentary too,

2346
02:16:05,440 --> 02:16:09,400
Speaker 5: but we want to make sure that's something we actually

2347
02:16:09,480 --> 02:16:12,600
Speaker 5: plan for this time, to make sure that they don't

2348
02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:15,760
Speaker 5: feel excluded and also that parents are able to fully participate.

2349
02:16:17,280 --> 02:16:19,600
Speaker 5: And yet you can see more on our website which

2350
02:16:19,680 --> 02:16:21,600
Speaker 5: is Dpgmidwest dot org.

2351
02:16:23,320 --> 02:16:25,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we'll have links to that in the description too.

2352
02:16:26,400 --> 02:16:28,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, and on there you'll see linked is our open

2353
02:16:28,920 --> 02:16:31,760
Speaker 5: collective where if you go there you can There's a

2354
02:16:31,840 --> 02:16:35,760
Speaker 5: variety of options on there which might be overwhelming. There's

2355
02:16:35,800 --> 02:16:38,840
Speaker 5: a donation option if you can't come but would like

2356
02:16:38,920 --> 02:16:42,640
Speaker 5: to donate, and then there's tickets they don't you can

2357
02:16:43,200 --> 02:16:47,440
Speaker 5: use pseudonyms. It's pretty anonymous. It's fine and you don't

2358
02:16:47,520 --> 02:16:52,840
Speaker 5: have to pay necessarily, but there's a suggested donation listed

2359
02:16:52,920 --> 02:16:54,960
Speaker 5: on there so that we are able to afford the

2360
02:16:55,000 --> 02:17:01,560
Speaker 5: campsite and people don't have to pay too much upfront. Two. Uh,

2361
02:17:02,400 --> 02:17:05,120
Speaker 5: by the by the campsite, I guess rent the campsite

2362
02:17:05,840 --> 02:17:09,320
Speaker 5: for the days and get food and stuff, and then

2363
02:17:09,320 --> 02:17:13,720
Speaker 5: there's options to get reserve a spot in a cabin

2364
02:17:14,240 --> 02:17:16,960
Speaker 5: if there's still spots left. We don't need to have

2365
02:17:17,040 --> 02:17:19,039
Speaker 5: a reservation, but we're trying to make sure that it's

2366
02:17:19,760 --> 02:17:24,400
Speaker 5: that we're prioritizing people with those access needs. And of

2367
02:17:24,520 --> 02:17:27,720
Speaker 5: course our emails also listed on both the Open Collective

2368
02:17:28,000 --> 02:17:30,960
Speaker 5: and the website, so that'll probably be the main source

2369
02:17:32,320 --> 02:17:38,200
Speaker 5: for info. We also have a collective account.

2370
02:17:37,879 --> 02:17:44,200
Speaker 3: Despite the problems. Right now, learn offseck do that people,

2371
02:17:44,959 --> 02:17:47,800
Speaker 3: It's good, you will go far.

2372
02:17:51,760 --> 02:17:57,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. God, I'm thinking about making a tumbler because what's happening.

2373
02:17:58,240 --> 02:18:04,400
Speaker 5: But the Yeah, it's also at DPG Midwest at collect

2374
02:18:04,760 --> 02:18:05,959
Speaker 5: the Social.

2375
02:18:06,879 --> 02:18:09,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and once again, this is running from August seventeenth

2376
02:18:09,840 --> 02:18:12,800
Speaker 3: to the twentieth, and yeah it sounds interesting. Go sign

2377
02:18:12,879 --> 02:18:17,720
Speaker 3: up and yeah, yeah, thank you to so much for

2378
02:18:17,840 --> 02:18:22,840
Speaker 3: joining us. Why am I saying us? Sorry, I just

2379
02:18:22,959 --> 02:18:25,119
Speaker 3: I just reflectively do the US. And then I'm like, wait,

2380
02:18:25,200 --> 02:18:28,680
Speaker 3: hold on, hold on, there's the Royal WE and the

2381
02:18:28,760 --> 02:18:35,920
Speaker 3: Anarchist US. Yeah, and I'm I'm I'm excited. I don't know.

2382
02:18:36,240 --> 02:18:38,440
Speaker 3: I may be there, I may not be. It depends

2383
02:18:38,560 --> 02:18:40,680
Speaker 3: on a bunch of scheduling stuff that I have very

2384
02:18:40,680 --> 02:18:46,480
Speaker 3: little control over. But yeah, other people should go. It's

2385
02:18:46,560 --> 02:18:48,760
Speaker 3: going to be a good event. And yeah, thank you

2386
02:18:48,800 --> 02:18:53,600
Speaker 3: to again, thank you, thank you. Yeah, and this has

2387
02:18:53,640 --> 02:18:56,360
Speaker 3: been it can happen here. You can find us in

2388
02:18:56,920 --> 02:18:59,640
Speaker 3: the usual places if they still exist by the time

2389
02:18:59,680 --> 02:19:02,520
Speaker 3: that's eppen so it comes out. Oh yeah, we now

2390
02:19:02,600 --> 02:19:04,760
Speaker 3: have the cooler Zone media thing. If you don't want

2391
02:19:04,800 --> 02:19:08,160
Speaker 3: to listen to the Reagan ads or like, I don't know,

2392
02:19:08,240 --> 02:19:11,280
Speaker 3: a bunch of other ads for podcasts or whatever weird

2393
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:13,600
Speaker 3: things playing right now. I think I've been getting casino

2394
02:19:13,720 --> 02:19:17,440
Speaker 3: ads lately, which is kind of interesting. But if you

2395
02:19:17,440 --> 02:19:20,039
Speaker 3: don't listen to that, we have a subscription service from

2396
02:19:20,040 --> 02:19:23,440
Speaker 3: Apple that you can buy, and then you don't want

2397
02:19:23,440 --> 02:19:26,320
Speaker 3: to have ads for all of our shows. We're working.

2398
02:19:26,360 --> 02:19:29,600
Speaker 3: We're still working on the Android one that hopefully will

2399
02:19:29,600 --> 02:19:33,959
Speaker 3: be happening soon. But that's anoverything that's we're doing. We're

2400
02:19:34,000 --> 02:19:37,440
Speaker 3: doing our best. We're not we unfortunately are not Apple,

2401
02:19:38,640 --> 02:19:40,720
Speaker 3: Like we don't own all of the stuff, so we

2402
02:19:40,879 --> 02:19:42,560
Speaker 3: have to do a bunch of stuff to work through it.

2403
02:19:42,760 --> 02:19:46,720
Speaker 3: But yeah, go go out into the world, build dual

2404
02:19:46,800 --> 02:19:49,640
Speaker 3: power and have a good time while you do it.

2405
02:20:06,080 --> 02:20:09,480
Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to another episode of It Could Happen

2406
02:20:09,560 --> 02:20:16,440
Speaker 4: Here with your guest host Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. Today,

2407
02:20:16,440 --> 02:20:21,120
Speaker 4: I'm joined by Mia and I'm looking to discuss a

2408
02:20:21,280 --> 02:20:24,280
Speaker 4: topic that I brought up in passing in a previous episode,

2409
02:20:24,720 --> 02:20:28,640
Speaker 4: that being the idea of conviviality, and the episode in

2410
02:20:28,720 --> 02:20:35,320
Speaker 4: question being in my podcast on the Growth. So when

2411
02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:39,760
Speaker 4: I first stumbled upon this concept of conviviality, I thought

2412
02:20:39,800 --> 02:20:44,720
Speaker 4: it was just you know, one of those exciting, fluffy

2413
02:20:46,760 --> 02:20:50,960
Speaker 4: aged prop buzzwords, right, something you you throw into you know,

2414
02:20:51,040 --> 02:20:56,680
Speaker 4: your your propaganda, your conversations, your descriptions of a better world.

2415
02:20:56,760 --> 02:20:58,920
Speaker 4: You like, Oh, I would love to live in a

2416
02:20:58,959 --> 02:21:02,080
Speaker 4: world it's more convened on these different things. Convivial being

2417
02:21:02,160 --> 02:21:05,400
Speaker 4: defined in the Dictionary as the quality of being friendly

2418
02:21:05,600 --> 02:21:06,160
Speaker 4: and lively.

2419
02:21:06,360 --> 02:21:06,480
Speaker 6: Right.

2420
02:21:07,760 --> 02:21:14,240
Speaker 4: Synonyms include amiability, affability, continuality, et cetera, et cetera. I

2421
02:21:14,280 --> 02:21:16,119
Speaker 4: didn't come here to be a thesaurus. I came here

2422
02:21:16,160 --> 02:21:19,680
Speaker 4: to talk about the deeper meanings behind these things. Right. So,

2423
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:24,520
Speaker 4: in such in this world, in this term up in

2424
02:21:24,640 --> 02:21:27,480
Speaker 4: more depth, I ended up going down this rabbit hole,

2425
02:21:27,720 --> 02:21:30,320
Speaker 4: and I discovered there's a whole history to the term

2426
02:21:31,040 --> 02:21:33,840
Speaker 4: that spans. I mean, I mean, I'm not going as

2427
02:21:33,920 --> 02:21:36,880
Speaker 4: far back as its Latin origins, right, I mean, we

2428
02:21:36,959 --> 02:21:42,800
Speaker 4: could talk about the French and their loan words making

2429
02:21:42,840 --> 02:21:45,840
Speaker 4: their way into the English language. We could talk about

2430
02:21:46,040 --> 02:21:51,600
Speaker 4: the Spanish concept of contivencia being interpreted literally as living

2431
02:21:51,640 --> 02:21:56,240
Speaker 4: in the company of others, or in one particular context,

2432
02:21:56,640 --> 02:21:59,400
Speaker 4: such as in Spain between the eighteenth and fifteenth centuries,

2433
02:22:00,160 --> 02:22:04,320
Speaker 4: describing the peaceful co existence between different religious groups. But

2434
02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:07,920
Speaker 4: I'm not going that far back. I'm sticking to the

2435
02:22:09,920 --> 02:22:14,720
Speaker 4: history of the term, from ivan Ilich to the de

2436
02:22:14,920 --> 02:22:19,840
Speaker 4: growth movement to the conviviality manifestos that have come out

2437
02:22:20,560 --> 02:22:26,240
Speaker 4: of online and offline discussions, academic and nonacademic discussions of

2438
02:22:26,520 --> 02:22:30,640
Speaker 4: this idea of conviviality. Now, I gave a sort of

2439
02:22:30,720 --> 02:22:33,720
Speaker 4: a basic dictionary definition before, but I want to go

2440
02:22:34,560 --> 02:22:40,400
Speaker 4: a bit deeper, right, So what is conviviality exactly? Conviviality

2441
02:22:40,760 --> 02:22:44,760
Speaker 4: is about creating a fun and friendly atmosphere where people

2442
02:22:44,800 --> 02:22:47,160
Speaker 4: can come together and have a great time. That's it

2443
02:22:47,240 --> 02:22:49,840
Speaker 4: in this essence, right, It's that feeling you get when

2444
02:22:49,840 --> 02:22:54,280
Speaker 4: you're surrounded by lively conversations and laughter and a sense

2445
02:22:54,280 --> 02:22:57,520
Speaker 4: of celebration. You know, those moments where everyone's enjoying each

2446
02:22:57,520 --> 02:23:01,600
Speaker 4: other's company and it's a real sense of camaraderie. I

2447
02:23:01,720 --> 02:23:09,000
Speaker 4: think using conviviality as a barometer is really helpful in

2448
02:23:10,560 --> 02:23:15,360
Speaker 4: organizing situations. Right, If you're in an environment where you

2449
02:23:15,520 --> 02:23:19,080
Speaker 4: are organized and where you're doing practice and you're not

2450
02:23:19,280 --> 02:23:24,200
Speaker 4: picking up those convivial vibes, it may be a sign

2451
02:23:24,360 --> 02:23:28,960
Speaker 4: that there's some toxicity in the mix there. I'm not

2452
02:23:29,120 --> 02:23:35,840
Speaker 4: saying that the work of activism has to be a

2453
02:23:35,920 --> 02:23:38,640
Speaker 4: trip to amusement park, right, It doesn't have to be

2454
02:23:38,680 --> 02:23:42,440
Speaker 4: a carnival, but I think there does need to be

2455
02:23:42,560 --> 02:23:45,360
Speaker 4: for sortidarity to exist. I think there should have some

2456
02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:50,680
Speaker 4: level of camaraderie and conviviality in the atmosphere. So you

2457
02:23:50,720 --> 02:23:54,200
Speaker 4: can think of conviviality as the spirit of hospitality and

2458
02:23:54,400 --> 02:23:57,040
Speaker 4: warth Right. It's like when you gather with your friends

2459
02:23:57,120 --> 02:23:59,480
Speaker 4: or when you have those family occasions and bring it

2460
02:23:59,480 --> 02:24:05,320
Speaker 4: around together. Even in workplace, you know, when union workers

2461
02:24:05,440 --> 02:24:08,560
Speaker 4: get along really well and you're organizing to create this

2462
02:24:08,720 --> 02:24:10,920
Speaker 4: union and you're going to take down your boss. It's

2463
02:24:11,000 --> 02:24:16,280
Speaker 4: a fun time, right, And so how do we get

2464
02:24:16,320 --> 02:24:21,680
Speaker 4: from this, you know, sort of seemingly simple, sociable idea

2465
02:24:21,959 --> 02:24:24,720
Speaker 4: of living and enjoying life in the company of others,

2466
02:24:25,200 --> 02:24:28,920
Speaker 4: making people feel welcome and included. How do we move

2467
02:24:28,959 --> 02:24:32,880
Speaker 4: from that idea this conviviality is a vital part of

2468
02:24:32,959 --> 02:24:38,040
Speaker 4: human interaction, to conviviality in a more political context. How

2469
02:24:38,080 --> 02:24:40,800
Speaker 4: do we go from just talking about social connections and

2470
02:24:41,280 --> 02:24:47,039
Speaker 4: adding meaning to our lives and enjoying festivities and shift

2471
02:24:47,720 --> 02:24:52,200
Speaker 4: to conversations about the social and political stay of the world.

2472
02:24:52,320 --> 02:24:59,600
Speaker 4: Right now, Right, there's this one particular guy who's kind

2473
02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:03,800
Speaker 4: of respons reponsible for this, A guy I personally like

2474
02:25:03,879 --> 02:25:07,879
Speaker 4: to call the illest, that being the one and only

2475
02:25:08,520 --> 02:25:15,160
Speaker 4: Australian philosopher, social critic and Catholic priest Ivan Elch Over

2476
02:25:15,200 --> 02:25:17,840
Speaker 4: the course, it was nearly eighty years of life since

2477
02:25:18,000 --> 02:25:25,560
Speaker 4: nineteen twenty six. This multi hyphenate, I think that's the

2478
02:25:25,600 --> 02:25:27,000
Speaker 4: tam where you use people who have a lot of

2479
02:25:27,040 --> 02:25:36,200
Speaker 4: different titles. Right, This multi hyphenate from Vienna, Italy had

2480
02:25:36,320 --> 02:25:40,040
Speaker 4: a significant impact on a bunch of fields, you know,

2481
02:25:40,120 --> 02:25:44,560
Speaker 4: from education to medicines, technology to social justice. I know

2482
02:25:44,720 --> 02:25:46,600
Speaker 4: his name because he came up a lot when I

2483
02:25:46,680 --> 02:25:50,760
Speaker 4: was doing research on unschool and te school and and

2484
02:25:50,920 --> 02:25:54,039
Speaker 4: just the education system as a whole. But apparently he's

2485
02:25:54,040 --> 02:25:56,880
Speaker 4: done a lot more than just that. He's challenged. He's

2486
02:25:57,080 --> 02:26:01,640
Speaker 4: challenged conventional thinking in all sort fields, and he's questioned

2487
02:26:01,680 --> 02:26:08,040
Speaker 4: the inherent assumptions and structures of modern society. Evans, and

2488
02:26:08,240 --> 02:26:09,960
Speaker 4: I hope he doesn't mind that I call me I Van,

2489
02:26:11,680 --> 02:26:17,000
Speaker 4: because I don't know if I'm pronouncing his German name correctly, right,

2490
02:26:17,360 --> 02:26:20,120
Speaker 4: his German lasting correctly, So just call him Ivan. He

2491
02:26:20,160 --> 02:26:24,600
Speaker 4: probably wouldn't mind, because he's dead. But Evan's intellectual journey

2492
02:26:24,879 --> 02:26:27,560
Speaker 4: took him through a bunch of different paths. Right. He

2493
02:26:27,640 --> 02:26:31,800
Speaker 4: studied theology and philosophy and eventually became a priest, and

2494
02:26:31,879 --> 02:26:33,560
Speaker 4: he lived and worked in different parts of the world,

2495
02:26:33,600 --> 02:26:37,160
Speaker 4: including Latin America, where he witnessed firsthand the effects of

2496
02:26:37,240 --> 02:26:41,119
Speaker 4: development projects and the power dynamics between developed and developing nations,

2497
02:26:41,720 --> 02:26:46,440
Speaker 4: and those experiences deeply influenced his critical perspective on the

2498
02:26:46,520 --> 02:26:51,440
Speaker 4: modern industrialized world. He also became a very prolific author,

2499
02:26:51,640 --> 02:26:55,440
Speaker 4: known for his thought provoking and often controversial writings such

2500
02:26:55,480 --> 02:26:58,520
Speaker 4: as The School and Society, which he published nineteen seventy one,

2501
02:26:59,120 --> 02:27:03,800
Speaker 4: Tools for Comality published nineteen seventy three, and Medical Nemesis,

2502
02:27:03,959 --> 02:27:07,400
Speaker 4: published in nineteen seventy six, and in these books he

2503
02:27:07,560 --> 02:27:12,800
Speaker 4: challenged established institutions and systems offered alternative visions that emphasized

2504
02:27:12,840 --> 02:27:20,000
Speaker 4: individual autonomy, community engagement, and wait for it, convivial relationships

2505
02:27:21,920 --> 02:27:27,000
Speaker 4: ilicious or evans critique of education systems contributed to development

2506
02:27:27,080 --> 02:27:30,800
Speaker 4: of altunative educational approaches such as homeschooling, on schooling, and

2507
02:27:31,000 --> 02:27:35,480
Speaker 4: learners centered education. His examination of the medical establishment sparked

2508
02:27:35,520 --> 02:27:38,880
Speaker 4: discussions on patient empowerment and the need for a more

2509
02:27:38,959 --> 02:27:42,320
Speaker 4: participatory model of healthcare, something I would like to discuss

2510
02:27:42,520 --> 02:27:47,320
Speaker 4: in a future episode, though I would like to find

2511
02:27:47,400 --> 02:27:52,360
Speaker 4: someone in the disability justice space to have that discussion with,

2512
02:27:52,560 --> 02:27:58,600
Speaker 4: because that is an area of experiential ignorance for me. Yes,

2513
02:27:58,680 --> 02:28:02,800
Speaker 4: So if anybody has a suggestions, I'd appreciate it. But

2514
02:28:03,040 --> 02:28:07,400
Speaker 4: Evan's legacy, right, it extends far beyond his lifetime, as

2515
02:28:07,440 --> 02:28:11,480
Speaker 4: it's clear he has elasting impact on critical theory, on

2516
02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:15,560
Speaker 4: social philosophy, and the quest for a more just and

2517
02:28:15,840 --> 02:28:19,040
Speaker 4: humane world. And I'm gassed up the guy a lot,

2518
02:28:19,120 --> 02:28:21,480
Speaker 4: and I'm sure he has some flaws that someone will

2519
02:28:21,560 --> 02:28:24,920
Speaker 4: no doubt inform me about and I have not read

2520
02:28:24,959 --> 02:28:29,320
Speaker 4: all of it. Yeah, he does go. He did go

2521
02:28:29,440 --> 02:28:31,720
Speaker 4: sign the Catholic Change byb being a priest, I se right,

2522
02:28:31,879 --> 02:28:34,560
Speaker 4: So I'm sure he has his flaws, and I have

2523
02:28:34,680 --> 02:28:36,640
Speaker 4: not read all of his literature. I haven't even read

2524
02:28:37,000 --> 02:28:41,800
Speaker 4: Medical Nemesis yet. But in Tools of Conviviality in particular,

2525
02:28:42,000 --> 02:28:46,000
Speaker 4: I want to discuss his perspective on conviviality and its

2526
02:28:46,120 --> 02:28:49,879
Speaker 4: role in society. Right in the book, he expresses these

2527
02:28:50,000 --> 02:28:54,320
Speaker 4: deep concerns about the negative effects of modern institutions and systems,

2528
02:28:55,040 --> 02:28:58,199
Speaker 4: and he argued that they often hindered personal freedom, autonomy,

2529
02:28:58,240 --> 02:29:01,359
Speaker 4: and human flourishing. He believes many of our social structures

2530
02:29:01,440 --> 02:29:05,000
Speaker 4: had become oppressive as they dictated not only how we

2531
02:29:05,080 --> 02:29:10,880
Speaker 4: should live, learn, and interact, but also how we saw

2532
02:29:10,920 --> 02:29:15,360
Speaker 4: ourselves as people. He argued that our systems had become

2533
02:29:15,680 --> 02:29:22,040
Speaker 4: highly centralized, reliant on professional expertise and complex technologies that

2534
02:29:22,240 --> 02:29:27,160
Speaker 4: limited individual agency and self determination. Now, one could be

2535
02:29:28,480 --> 02:29:31,040
Speaker 4: bad faith, I suppose and say that, Oh, is he

2536
02:29:31,240 --> 02:29:36,400
Speaker 4: saying that Ivan was anti complex technology? Is he some

2537
02:29:36,640 --> 02:29:41,680
Speaker 4: sort of popular culture vasadization of Luodites or something. But

2538
02:29:43,440 --> 02:29:46,880
Speaker 4: his concern was not necessarily on the technology itself and

2539
02:29:46,920 --> 02:29:50,280
Speaker 4: the complex dat of technology, but more so how that

2540
02:29:50,480 --> 02:29:55,240
Speaker 4: technology slotted into the structured society as a whole. Right,

2541
02:29:55,800 --> 02:29:59,400
Speaker 4: his concern was about how these elite professional groups had

2542
02:29:59,520 --> 02:30:06,199
Speaker 4: established called a radical monopoly over fundamental human activities including health, agriculture,

2543
02:30:06,360 --> 02:30:10,920
Speaker 4: home building, and learning. And this monopoly, it's monopoly is

2544
02:30:10,920 --> 02:30:14,440
Speaker 4: criticized and all the technology, but the monopoly, according to Ivan,

2545
02:30:14,959 --> 02:30:19,520
Speaker 4: had led to a detrimental war and subsistence that deprived

2546
02:30:20,080 --> 02:30:24,080
Speaker 4: formerly pasant societies of the essential skills and know how.

2547
02:30:25,240 --> 02:30:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, like I feel like that's a

2548
02:30:26,680 --> 02:30:30,160
Speaker 3: pretty I think I think it's pretty hard to.

2549
02:30:31,800 --> 02:30:32,680
Speaker 4: Like tour that line.

2550
02:30:33,400 --> 02:30:35,920
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if I think, like I think

2551
02:30:35,959 --> 02:30:38,760
Speaker 3: specifically that line of agriculture is pretty hard to like

2552
02:30:39,560 --> 02:30:41,920
Speaker 3: not fought, like, not agree with if you look at

2553
02:30:41,959 --> 02:30:45,199
Speaker 3: the effects that the Green Revolution had on other people

2554
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:48,320
Speaker 3: who do agriculture. Oh yeah, sure, Yeah, I mean and

2555
02:30:48,440 --> 02:30:51,440
Speaker 3: I think this goes to it, like this falls in

2556
02:30:51,560 --> 02:30:54,360
Speaker 3: with the sort of like you know, like the sort

2557
02:30:54,360 --> 02:30:56,680
Speaker 3: of social technological aspect of it. Of like the fact

2558
02:30:56,680 --> 02:30:58,600
Speaker 3: that this was combined with this massive sort of social

2559
02:30:58,640 --> 02:31:03,280
Speaker 3: technological push to you know, dry farmers into debt, you know,

2560
02:31:03,400 --> 02:31:05,320
Speaker 3: so they could afford the inputs for this stuff, and

2561
02:31:05,440 --> 02:31:07,520
Speaker 3: what it did to sort of what it did to

2562
02:31:07,520 --> 02:31:10,200
Speaker 3: the actual farming communities and what it did to people's livelihoods.

2563
02:31:10,440 --> 02:31:12,680
Speaker 3: And you know the way that like a lot of

2564
02:31:12,720 --> 02:31:14,960
Speaker 3: this was just the sort of smoke screen for like

2565
02:31:15,080 --> 02:31:18,160
Speaker 3: consolidation of major landowners, et cetera, et cetera. Like I think,

2566
02:31:18,640 --> 02:31:21,720
Speaker 3: I think he's pretty on the right point.

2567
02:31:22,040 --> 02:31:24,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, For those who don't know, by the way,

2568
02:31:24,920 --> 02:31:28,280
Speaker 4: the Green Revolution refers to a period of technological advance

2569
02:31:28,360 --> 02:31:31,240
Speaker 4: moments and agricultural strategies that took place during the mid

2570
02:31:31,360 --> 02:31:35,280
Speaker 4: twentieth century, primarily in developing countries. It aimed to increase

2571
02:31:35,320 --> 02:31:39,640
Speaker 4: agricultural productivity and food production to the adoption of high

2572
02:31:39,720 --> 02:31:43,840
Speaker 4: yielding crop varieties, increased use of fertilizers, pesticides, and modern

2573
02:31:43,879 --> 02:31:47,240
Speaker 4: farming techniques. And the Green Revolution is basically responsible for

2574
02:31:47,280 --> 02:31:51,280
Speaker 4: a lot of the most damaging practices that we see

2575
02:31:51,320 --> 02:31:55,879
Speaker 4: in agriculture today, right from the heavy reliance on chemical

2576
02:31:55,920 --> 02:31:59,240
Speaker 4: inputs like fertilizers and pesticides, which leads to you know,

2577
02:32:00,000 --> 02:32:03,400
Speaker 4: soil degradation with war's a pollution lost by diversity, you know,

2578
02:32:03,480 --> 02:32:07,720
Speaker 4: the emphasis on monocultures and replacements of traditional crop varieties

2579
02:32:07,800 --> 02:32:11,280
Speaker 4: of high yielding ones that reduced agrobi diversity and led

2580
02:32:11,320 --> 02:32:16,480
Speaker 4: to diseases proliferate in between certain species, intensive farming practices

2581
02:32:16,800 --> 02:32:21,280
Speaker 4: that could not be kept up with by small scale farmers,

2582
02:32:22,440 --> 02:32:27,400
Speaker 4: like Mio was saying, the consolidation of land and the

2583
02:32:27,480 --> 02:32:31,600
Speaker 4: ability to manage that land into these acribusiness corporations and

2584
02:32:32,000 --> 02:32:33,000
Speaker 4: major landowners.

2585
02:32:33,959 --> 02:32:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's worth emphasizing that this was

2586
02:32:36,800 --> 02:32:39,560
Speaker 3: very explicitly see anti communist thing. I mean, the State

2587
02:32:39,600 --> 02:32:43,160
Speaker 3: Department's like actual explicit line was a great revolution to

2588
02:32:43,160 --> 02:32:46,040
Speaker 3: stop a bread revolution. So like a big part of

2589
02:32:46,120 --> 02:32:50,640
Speaker 3: what this was about was like stopping land reform from happening,

2590
02:32:51,440 --> 02:32:53,400
Speaker 3: which right, yeah, is incredibly bleak.

2591
02:32:54,760 --> 02:32:58,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and now it's the dominant practice globally and it's

2592
02:32:58,200 --> 02:33:02,200
Speaker 4: having detrimental impacts globally the end. Yeah, and I mean

2593
02:33:02,360 --> 02:33:04,480
Speaker 4: some of those some of them are going to be

2594
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:07,040
Speaker 4: dead very soon. Yeah, the rest of us have to

2595
02:33:07,040 --> 02:33:13,840
Speaker 4: suffer the consequences story of my life, yeap, which.

2596
02:33:15,320 --> 02:33:19,640
Speaker 3: Is right. Yeah. You think that's sort of wild about

2597
02:33:19,680 --> 02:33:21,560
Speaker 3: it too, is that like the countries that did land

2598
02:33:21,600 --> 02:33:25,879
Speaker 3: reform like developed better capitalist economies and the ones who didn't.

2599
02:33:26,440 --> 02:33:31,840
Speaker 4: But yeah, you know, like yeah, yay, the better doing copless.

2600
02:33:32,240 --> 02:33:34,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I mean and like yeah, it's like they're

2601
02:33:34,480 --> 02:33:37,440
Speaker 3: they're better. It turns out doing land reform actually does

2602
02:33:37,560 --> 02:33:42,200
Speaker 3: help both like non capitalist and capitalist economies. But unfortunately

2603
02:33:42,240 --> 02:33:44,920
Speaker 3: the green revolutionary people, the revolution people like already even

2604
02:33:45,640 --> 02:33:48,480
Speaker 3: like people who care about the efficiency of capitalism, they

2605
02:33:48,520 --> 02:33:50,840
Speaker 3: care about like the power of the land owning class.

2606
02:33:51,280 --> 02:33:53,480
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and I mean that I don't know if

2607
02:33:53,520 --> 02:33:55,000
Speaker 4: this is a saying, but I might make it a

2608
02:33:55,120 --> 02:33:58,080
Speaker 4: say in I think socialists are beat are doing copitless

2609
02:33:58,120 --> 02:33:58,879
Speaker 4: and then copless.

2610
02:33:58,920 --> 02:34:04,040
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean the entire is this is the

2611
02:34:04,200 --> 02:34:07,280
Speaker 3: entire story of China, right, It's like, yeah, like Marc's

2612
02:34:07,360 --> 02:34:10,120
Speaker 3: Leninism is a really really efficient way to turn a

2613
02:34:10,160 --> 02:34:12,119
Speaker 3: feudal economy into a capitalist economy.

2614
02:34:13,000 --> 02:34:16,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, if I was in charge of capitalism, I

2615
02:34:17,160 --> 02:34:19,080
Speaker 4: was going to make sure that the people at the

2616
02:34:19,120 --> 02:34:23,560
Speaker 4: bottom class brought into the system. Who will see and yeah,

2617
02:34:24,000 --> 02:34:27,200
Speaker 4: propaganding education is a part of it, but also you

2618
02:34:27,280 --> 02:34:30,199
Speaker 4: want to make sure they're not vulnerable to being radicalized.

2619
02:34:30,520 --> 02:34:32,000
Speaker 4: The best way to do that is to ensure the

2620
02:34:32,160 --> 02:34:39,279
Speaker 4: basic needs are met. Yeah, but you know, even arguing

2621
02:34:39,400 --> 02:34:44,440
Speaker 4: that will have some people, uh, misinformed, I would say,

2622
02:34:44,520 --> 02:34:49,920
Speaker 4: but well intentioned labeling you a socialist, Like I think

2623
02:34:50,000 --> 02:34:54,199
Speaker 4: people should have good things. Oh you're dirty red comedy

2624
02:34:54,320 --> 02:34:57,760
Speaker 4: you but you know it's it's just well, it's just

2625
02:34:57,840 --> 02:35:01,960
Speaker 4: literally wealthier capitalism. But apparently that's too much for a

2626
02:35:02,000 --> 02:35:05,560
Speaker 4: lot of capitalists. Apparently. I mean literally, the reason we

2627
02:35:05,640 --> 02:35:10,720
Speaker 4: have welfare capitalism is because socialists forward for it in

2628
02:35:10,760 --> 02:35:13,879
Speaker 4: the early twentieth century and early to mid twentieth century.

2629
02:35:13,959 --> 02:35:16,720
Speaker 4: So you know, we have socialists to thank for everything, basically.

2630
02:35:17,840 --> 02:35:21,840
Speaker 4: But I'm getting off track, right, So, like I was saying,

2631
02:35:22,120 --> 02:35:26,480
Speaker 4: this monopoly, this radical monopoly over fundamental human activities, that's

2632
02:35:26,600 --> 02:35:30,560
Speaker 4: a detrimental war and subsistence that are deprived peasant societies

2633
02:35:30,840 --> 02:35:34,880
Speaker 4: of the essential skills and know how, instead of promoting

2634
02:35:35,000 --> 02:35:39,840
Speaker 4: human flourishing, all this economic development ended up feeding into

2635
02:35:39,920 --> 02:35:45,600
Speaker 4: what Yvane has termed modernized poverty. And it's something I

2636
02:35:45,680 --> 02:35:49,360
Speaker 4: think about often, right, this idea of the poor back

2637
02:35:49,440 --> 02:35:52,680
Speaker 4: then versus the poor now, right, And of course it

2638
02:35:52,720 --> 02:35:55,880
Speaker 4: depends on which society you're talking about, which time period

2639
02:35:55,879 --> 02:36:01,880
Speaker 4: you're talking about. But let's just pick some random like

2640
02:36:02,200 --> 02:36:07,400
Speaker 4: historic poor person. Right, Let's just say, I don't know,

2641
02:36:07,600 --> 02:36:14,640
Speaker 4: generic civilization, A. This person is poor, right, They after work,

2642
02:36:15,040 --> 02:36:19,360
Speaker 4: they have to work the land, backbreaking toil. Sometimes raiders

2643
02:36:19,400 --> 02:36:21,040
Speaker 4: would roll it and be like, oh, we're going to

2644
02:36:21,080 --> 02:36:23,600
Speaker 4: take your stuff now, and then they would like ride

2645
02:36:23,600 --> 02:36:26,920
Speaker 4: their horses away and probably I don't know, dab on

2646
02:36:27,040 --> 02:36:30,920
Speaker 4: you or whatever, or the raiders will roll in, they'll

2647
02:36:30,959 --> 02:36:32,640
Speaker 4: take your stuff and then they'll be like, oh, I

2648
02:36:32,720 --> 02:36:35,039
Speaker 4: want to stay, and then now you have to pay

2649
02:36:35,120 --> 02:36:36,920
Speaker 4: taxes to me every year. And you know, that's how

2650
02:36:37,040 --> 02:36:42,280
Speaker 4: a lot of states were created. But whether it's you know,

2651
02:36:42,360 --> 02:36:47,960
Speaker 4: nomadic warlords or settled warlords, at least you had a house.

2652
02:36:48,959 --> 02:36:51,320
Speaker 4: At least you had a community. At least you had

2653
02:36:51,360 --> 02:36:54,120
Speaker 4: the ability to grow your own food, even though a

2654
02:36:54,200 --> 02:37:00,560
Speaker 4: lot of that food was being taxed. And you know,

2655
02:37:01,200 --> 02:37:03,600
Speaker 4: at least you had certain skills that you could use

2656
02:37:03,640 --> 02:37:08,400
Speaker 4: to sustain yourself. Right. Compare that to modern poverty, where

2657
02:37:08,440 --> 02:37:12,600
Speaker 4: you have this large swath of people who are dependent,

2658
02:37:13,280 --> 02:37:16,840
Speaker 4: who are mechanical parts in a system that they cannot

2659
02:37:16,920 --> 02:37:22,120
Speaker 4: fully understand, comprehend and control for themselves. With this, you know,

2660
02:37:22,320 --> 02:37:27,280
Speaker 4: whole industrial revolution, where you take this process of making

2661
02:37:27,320 --> 02:37:30,000
Speaker 4: a chair, for example, and you break it up into

2662
02:37:30,000 --> 02:37:32,600
Speaker 4: a bunch of different steps, and each person that step, well,

2663
02:37:32,640 --> 02:37:34,000
Speaker 4: you knows how to do one thing, but they don't

2664
02:37:34,040 --> 02:37:39,000
Speaker 4: have to do the entire thing right. Like the poor

2665
02:37:39,080 --> 02:37:41,959
Speaker 4: today versus the poor of yesteryear, the latter still had

2666
02:37:42,040 --> 02:37:44,720
Speaker 4: these skills for subsistence, and many of today is poor,

2667
02:37:45,160 --> 02:37:47,800
Speaker 4: particularly the urban poor, because I know the rural poor,

2668
02:37:47,959 --> 02:37:52,680
Speaker 4: a lot of them still sustain themselves, still practice you know,

2669
02:37:53,680 --> 02:37:56,840
Speaker 4: sustem subsistence farming and that kind of thing, but particularly

2670
02:37:56,879 --> 02:37:59,000
Speaker 4: the urban poor, they don't even have like a lot

2671
02:37:59,000 --> 02:38:01,800
Speaker 4: of those skills to rely on to even sustain themselves

2672
02:38:01,840 --> 02:38:06,840
Speaker 4: in that level. For the urbanists in the audience, you

2673
02:38:06,959 --> 02:38:09,800
Speaker 4: might appreciate the Devan also talks about the dominance of

2674
02:38:10,000 --> 02:38:13,360
Speaker 4: cars and how they've created this radical monopoly over land

2675
02:38:13,840 --> 02:38:17,000
Speaker 4: sitting out urban environments into the domain of cars, which

2676
02:38:17,040 --> 02:38:21,080
Speaker 4: not only compromises the environment for pedestrians and cyclists, but

2677
02:38:21,200 --> 02:38:27,280
Speaker 4: also disrupts our innate mobility as human beings. Stephen takes

2678
02:38:27,280 --> 02:38:31,959
Speaker 4: it a step further right. And this particular opinion, opinion

2679
02:38:32,040 --> 02:38:34,960
Speaker 4: of his is a bit shaky for me, so something

2680
02:38:34,959 --> 02:38:37,000
Speaker 4: I've been let in stewing my brain a little bit more.

2681
02:38:38,240 --> 02:38:42,080
Speaker 4: But let me just read the quote. The radical monopoly

2682
02:38:42,320 --> 02:38:47,920
Speaker 4: cars establish is destructive in a special way. Cars create distance.

2683
02:38:48,560 --> 02:38:52,920
Speaker 4: Speedy vehicles of all kinds render space, scarce. They drive

2684
02:38:53,080 --> 02:38:57,280
Speaker 4: wedges of highways into populated areas and the next door

2685
02:38:57,480 --> 02:39:00,560
Speaker 4: tolls on the bridge over the remoteness between people that

2686
02:39:00,760 --> 02:39:05,080
Speaker 4: was manufactured for their sake. This monopoly overland tour in

2687
02:39:05,240 --> 02:39:09,360
Speaker 4: space into cough fodder. It destroys the environment for feet

2688
02:39:09,480 --> 02:39:12,840
Speaker 4: and bicycles, even if polices and buses could run as

2689
02:39:12,959 --> 02:39:16,200
Speaker 4: non pollutant, even if planes and buses could run as

2690
02:39:16,280 --> 02:39:21,200
Speaker 4: non pollutant, non deplice in public services, they're inhuman velocities,

2691
02:39:21,560 --> 02:39:24,879
Speaker 4: wo degrade mans inned mobility and force him to spend

2692
02:39:24,959 --> 02:39:28,640
Speaker 4: more time for the sake of travel. I'm sure he

2693
02:39:28,640 --> 02:39:31,000
Speaker 4: could pick up on why that particular opinion is a

2694
02:39:31,040 --> 02:39:33,959
Speaker 4: bit shaky, right, Yeah, it's not just anti car. He's

2695
02:39:34,040 --> 02:39:35,920
Speaker 4: also a bit anti fleen and bus.

2696
02:39:37,360 --> 02:39:40,840
Speaker 3: To be fair, I'm also anti bus, but like planes,

2697
02:39:41,000 --> 02:39:43,280
Speaker 3: I don't know, like, are they great for the environment?

2698
02:39:43,400 --> 02:39:43,440
Speaker 5: No?

2699
02:39:43,800 --> 02:39:47,279
Speaker 3: Do you sometimes need to go to another continent? Yes?

2700
02:39:48,959 --> 02:39:53,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so he is. He probably reads like

2701
02:39:54,760 --> 02:39:58,240
Speaker 4: r slash f cars and he's like, uh, y'all, don't

2702
02:39:58,240 --> 02:39:58,720
Speaker 4: take it far.

2703
02:39:58,840 --> 02:40:01,279
Speaker 3: You know, you guys are filming models.

2704
02:40:04,160 --> 02:40:09,800
Speaker 4: Liberals. But yeah, so, I highly recommend reading the actual

2705
02:40:09,840 --> 02:40:12,560
Speaker 4: book and full for further insight and context, and I

2706
02:40:12,640 --> 02:40:14,400
Speaker 4: do want to dig into his thoughts on it further

2707
02:40:14,440 --> 02:40:18,360
Speaker 4: in the future, but you know, food for thought. Let

2708
02:40:18,400 --> 02:40:25,879
Speaker 4: me know what you think of those inhuman velocities. But anyway,

2709
02:40:27,240 --> 02:40:30,760
Speaker 4: memes aside, I think the benefit of Evan's critique of

2710
02:40:30,840 --> 02:40:35,080
Speaker 4: the radical monopoly is that it provides a different perspective, right.

2711
02:40:35,320 --> 02:40:39,320
Speaker 4: It sheds light on the negative consequences of excessive specialization,

2712
02:40:39,879 --> 02:40:43,760
Speaker 4: technocratic control, and the prioritization of speed and efficiency over

2713
02:40:43,879 --> 02:40:48,400
Speaker 4: human well being. Zoeb on YouTube actually has a really

2714
02:40:48,480 --> 02:40:52,240
Speaker 4: great video and the idea of efficiency as this ultimate

2715
02:40:52,360 --> 02:40:55,840
Speaker 4: moral good, so I recommend checking that out, especially since

2716
02:40:55,879 --> 02:40:59,320
Speaker 4: the standard narrative that we are utterly bombarded by is

2717
02:40:59,400 --> 02:41:01,840
Speaker 4: that all these things are uncontroversially good.

2718
02:41:02,360 --> 02:41:02,520
Speaker 6: Right.

2719
02:41:03,120 --> 02:41:06,480
Speaker 4: What I appreciate about Yvan and his ideas is that

2720
02:41:06,720 --> 02:41:11,520
Speaker 4: they challenge us to reconsider our relationship with systems, tools,

2721
02:41:11,840 --> 02:41:17,039
Speaker 4: and institutions, and he encourages us to strive for more

2722
02:41:17,120 --> 02:41:22,000
Speaker 4: balanced and confivial society. And what does that convivial society

2723
02:41:22,080 --> 02:41:27,560
Speaker 4: look like to him? Well, let's continue. Ivan's solution argues

2724
02:41:27,600 --> 02:41:30,920
Speaker 4: for the developments of new, accessible and user friendly instruments

2725
02:41:31,240 --> 02:41:34,480
Speaker 4: that would allow average citizens to regain practical knowledge and

2726
02:41:34,600 --> 02:41:37,440
Speaker 4: reclaim control over their lives, as well as resist the

2727
02:41:37,480 --> 02:41:42,000
Speaker 4: domination of specialized elites. That's why Ivan Ilich's book Tools

2728
02:41:42,040 --> 02:41:49,040
Speaker 4: for Conviviality is sponsored by Skills. All right, I know

2729
02:41:49,120 --> 02:41:53,760
Speaker 4: that's a bad joke. Yvan believed that society should be

2730
02:41:54,120 --> 02:41:58,520
Speaker 4: organized to save the needs and aspirations of individuals, rather

2731
02:41:58,640 --> 02:42:03,680
Speaker 4: than creating systems that their potential and autronomy. And so

2732
02:42:03,840 --> 02:42:09,360
Speaker 4: for Yvan conviviality. Here we are back to the original topic.

2733
02:42:09,840 --> 02:42:14,120
Speaker 4: Conviviality represented a society in which individuals had the power

2734
02:42:14,240 --> 02:42:18,160
Speaker 4: to shape their own lives, free from excessive dependence on

2735
02:42:18,320 --> 02:42:22,920
Speaker 4: institutionalized systems. He envisioned a will people had access to

2736
02:42:23,080 --> 02:42:29,040
Speaker 4: convivial tools, simple user friendly technologies that empowered them to

2737
02:42:29,120 --> 02:42:33,480
Speaker 4: take control of their own destinies. For example, the dominant

2738
02:42:33,560 --> 02:42:37,320
Speaker 4: education system separates learners from the real world and disempowers them.

2739
02:42:38,040 --> 02:42:41,680
Speaker 4: Yvan advocates for more self directed and community based education,

2740
02:42:42,200 --> 02:42:45,480
Speaker 4: where people could pursue knowledge and skills according to their

2741
02:42:45,520 --> 02:42:50,560
Speaker 4: own interests and needs. Van also critiques the over reliance

2742
02:42:50,640 --> 02:42:53,360
Speaker 4: on medical professionals and call for a shift towards a

2743
02:42:53,400 --> 02:42:57,240
Speaker 4: more participatory model of healthcare that gives individuals access to

2744
02:42:57,280 --> 02:43:00,760
Speaker 4: information and resources that allow them to actively participate in

2745
02:43:00,800 --> 02:43:04,000
Speaker 4: their own health decisions rather than be in these passive

2746
02:43:04,040 --> 02:43:10,040
Speaker 4: recipients of medical interventions. In transportation systems, he also advocates

2747
02:43:10,040 --> 02:43:14,200
Speaker 4: for more human skill and community oriented transportation alternatives. He

2748
02:43:14,360 --> 02:43:17,840
Speaker 4: envisions neighborhoods designed for walking and biking, which would foster

2749
02:43:17,959 --> 02:43:23,240
Speaker 4: social interactions and reduce the environmental impact of excessive motorized transport.

2750
02:43:24,040 --> 02:43:28,760
Speaker 4: In essence, Evan viewed conviviality as a transformative concept that

2751
02:43:28,879 --> 02:43:32,600
Speaker 4: aimed to restore individual agency and personal connections and a

2752
02:43:32,680 --> 02:43:38,039
Speaker 4: sense of empowerment in society. He challenged the prevalance structures

2753
02:43:38,160 --> 02:43:42,359
Speaker 4: and systems that limited human potential and proposed more participatory,

2754
02:43:42,720 --> 02:43:46,680
Speaker 4: community driven alternatives, and to this day, his ideas continue

2755
02:43:46,720 --> 02:43:50,240
Speaker 4: to inspire discussions on how we can create a convivial

2756
02:43:50,320 --> 02:43:55,120
Speaker 4: society that values human relationships, self determination, and a shared

2757
02:43:55,120 --> 02:43:59,720
Speaker 4: responsibility for shaping our own lives. What I found particularly

2758
02:43:59,760 --> 02:44:03,400
Speaker 4: in in researching this was learned that the book's vision

2759
02:44:03,480 --> 02:44:06,440
Speaker 4: of tools that would be developed maintained by a community

2760
02:44:06,480 --> 02:44:10,440
Speaker 4: of users that actually had significant influence on the first

2761
02:44:10,480 --> 02:44:16,359
Speaker 4: developers the personal computer mind blowing I know most notably

2762
02:44:16,480 --> 02:44:20,200
Speaker 4: one of the create first developers of the PC, Lee

2763
02:44:20,280 --> 02:44:26,480
Speaker 4: Felt Felsenstein, Lee Felsenstein, he and several others were just

2764
02:44:27,320 --> 02:44:31,480
Speaker 4: were inspired by this idea within the book, because we

2765
02:44:31,480 --> 02:44:36,440
Speaker 4: remember Ivana's righting this before the internet, and they go

2766
02:44:36,560 --> 02:44:38,760
Speaker 4: and they take this idea, and then they make the internet,

2767
02:44:39,200 --> 02:44:42,120
Speaker 4: or they make the personal computer, because computers existed prior

2768
02:44:42,160 --> 02:44:45,240
Speaker 4: to the personal computer, but they weren't as accessible, they

2769
02:44:45,280 --> 02:44:49,080
Speaker 4: weren't a tool of conviviality, whereas the personal computer of

2770
02:44:49,120 --> 02:44:54,199
Speaker 4: today is. And I just think that's beautiful and amazing.

2771
02:44:55,120 --> 02:44:58,440
Speaker 4: But Ivan's ideas did more than just, you know, shape

2772
02:44:58,480 --> 02:45:02,040
Speaker 4: the course of human history. He also would shape the

2773
02:45:02,120 --> 02:45:07,280
Speaker 4: creation of confivulist movement. In twenty ten, eight years after

2774
02:45:07,520 --> 02:45:10,800
Speaker 4: Ivan died and thirty seven years after Yvan published Tools

2775
02:45:10,800 --> 02:45:17,560
Speaker 4: for Conviviality, Raymond de Boiver published Confivialism, a philosophical Manifesto,

2776
02:45:18,200 --> 02:45:21,720
Speaker 4: and in it, Barvert begins by discussing the key theme

2777
02:45:21,959 --> 02:45:24,800
Speaker 4: in Michael Polland's books The Botany of Desire, which is

2778
02:45:24,879 --> 02:45:28,160
Speaker 4: a creage read by the way, and The Omnivores Dilemma,

2779
02:45:28,320 --> 02:45:31,120
Speaker 4: which I haven't read yet, But the key theme is

2780
02:45:31,640 --> 02:45:32,280
Speaker 4: co evolution.

2781
02:45:32,879 --> 02:45:33,039
Speaker 3: Right.

2782
02:45:33,480 --> 02:45:38,480
Speaker 4: The first book humorously suggests that plants manipulate humans to coevolve,

2783
02:45:38,600 --> 02:45:41,080
Speaker 4: with them taking care of their needs in exchange for

2784
02:45:41,200 --> 02:45:45,320
Speaker 4: nutrition or beauty, and the second book, The Omnivoe Dilemma,

2785
02:45:46,000 --> 02:45:50,440
Speaker 4: the importance of interconnected components for vibrant pharm is emphasized,

2786
02:45:50,520 --> 02:45:53,200
Speaker 4: with Korn serving as an example of a plant that

2787
02:45:53,320 --> 02:45:58,920
Speaker 4: relies on humans for survival. Bavert proposes that focusing on

2788
02:45:59,040 --> 02:46:03,920
Speaker 4: the prefix co in co evolution could have philosophical implications

2789
02:46:03,959 --> 02:46:11,440
Speaker 4: similar to William James's emphasis on the preposition with by

2790
02:46:11,720 --> 02:46:14,640
Speaker 4: you know. Examining the significance of these prepositions co com

2791
02:46:14,879 --> 02:46:18,199
Speaker 4: con or coal as well as sin, the author argues

2792
02:46:18,280 --> 02:46:23,520
Speaker 4: for a philosophy that recognizes omnipresent interconnection. Michael Polland's books

2793
02:46:23,600 --> 02:46:27,800
Speaker 4: do this well in the context of food, but Waver

2794
02:46:28,000 --> 02:46:34,480
Speaker 4: wants to take this The implications of this uh taken

2795
02:46:34,560 --> 02:46:41,320
Speaker 4: preposition seriously into rearrangement the philosophy itself, and now we're getting,

2796
02:46:41,640 --> 02:46:46,080
Speaker 4: you know, kind of heavy, right, As Quavert argues, philosophers

2797
02:46:46,120 --> 02:46:52,000
Speaker 4: have often neglected the significance of interconnected relationships, while farmers

2798
02:46:52,080 --> 02:46:55,040
Speaker 4: recognize the importance of interconnectedness. You know how things like

2799
02:46:55,200 --> 02:47:00,000
Speaker 4: land and water and stuff all work together. Modern philosophy,

2800
02:47:00,080 --> 02:47:02,879
Speaker 4: on the other hand, according to Bova, since the Renaissance

2801
02:47:03,360 --> 02:47:06,640
Speaker 4: has been focused on these self standing and independent entities,

2802
02:47:07,200 --> 02:47:10,720
Speaker 4: not interconnected entities. And I don't know how true this

2803
02:47:10,959 --> 02:47:16,360
Speaker 4: is because I'm not I didn't study philosophy. I'm just

2804
02:47:17,440 --> 02:47:24,280
Speaker 4: communicating Varveir's arguments here, right. And so the idea of

2805
02:47:24,840 --> 02:47:31,199
Speaker 4: autonomy in modern philosophy, according to Barva, seem to exclude

2806
02:47:31,240 --> 02:47:37,600
Speaker 4: the with factor in existence, relegating relations and interconnections to

2807
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:43,279
Speaker 4: a secondary role. So Whatver is saying is that philosophy

2808
02:47:43,360 --> 02:47:46,560
Speaker 4: is sort on this foundation that we are autonomous and

2809
02:47:46,640 --> 02:47:50,520
Speaker 4: self sufficient first, right, and then everything else comes after.

2810
02:47:52,840 --> 02:47:53,000
Speaker 7: You know.

2811
02:47:53,720 --> 02:47:59,240
Speaker 4: Rousseau, for example, portrayed an idyllic existence where connections independencies

2812
02:47:59,280 --> 02:48:04,320
Speaker 4: with viewers the impositions. You know, we went from being

2813
02:48:04,400 --> 02:48:09,560
Speaker 4: autonomous to being stuck in this whoever inter dependencies, and

2814
02:48:09,680 --> 02:48:14,280
Speaker 4: then as a result coming out to that, the philosophical

2815
02:48:14,879 --> 02:48:21,040
Speaker 4: idea of liberation for some ended up returning for some

2816
02:48:21,840 --> 02:48:26,160
Speaker 4: meant to return into this original state of authenticity and

2817
02:48:26,280 --> 02:48:32,720
Speaker 4: disengagement from connections. The concept of freedom itself became something

2818
02:48:32,800 --> 02:48:41,800
Speaker 4: that was anti interdependency, and so the focus shifted away

2819
02:48:41,840 --> 02:48:47,480
Speaker 4: from this idea of humans being inherently interdependent. But then

2820
02:48:47,600 --> 02:48:51,440
Speaker 4: this alternative point of view came about, right, And this

2821
02:48:51,520 --> 02:48:55,120
Speaker 4: shift coincided with the introduction of the term symbiosis and biology,

2822
02:48:55,520 --> 02:48:57,920
Speaker 4: which combined the Greek word for life with the preposition

2823
02:48:58,120 --> 02:49:03,199
Speaker 4: with and the concept of sympiosis found its way eventually

2824
02:49:03,240 --> 02:49:08,359
Speaker 4: into everyday language and discourse. So that's the Greek term symbiosis.

2825
02:49:09,160 --> 02:49:12,400
Speaker 4: Let me go to the Latin term conviviality, meaning with living,

2826
02:49:13,560 --> 02:49:17,480
Speaker 4: and that long predated you know, science and philosophy used

2827
02:49:17,480 --> 02:49:23,760
Speaker 4: to describe just ordinary experiences. And so to avoid getting

2828
02:49:23,840 --> 02:49:29,320
Speaker 4: lost into the philosopher's favorite past time of you know,

2829
02:49:29,720 --> 02:49:34,960
Speaker 4: navigating various words and all their package to bort a

2830
02:49:35,040 --> 02:49:42,240
Speaker 4: downed simplicity, Boivert is seeking to ask what a conviviloust

2831
02:49:42,360 --> 02:49:46,240
Speaker 4: turn in philosophy might look like and what changes in

2832
02:49:46,280 --> 02:49:50,360
Speaker 4: philosophy might be taken place. For one, he's concerned with

2833
02:49:50,440 --> 02:49:57,480
Speaker 4: how embracing convivialism might change our understanding of metaphysics.

2834
02:49:58,959 --> 02:49:59,080
Speaker 9: Right.

2835
02:50:00,040 --> 02:50:07,240
Speaker 4: By embracing this metaphors of existence as about the relation

2836
02:50:07,480 --> 02:50:12,320
Speaker 4: and conjunction between components, about the interplane interconnectedness of various elements,

2837
02:50:12,560 --> 02:50:16,840
Speaker 4: rather than about a collection of separate units, you end

2838
02:50:16,959 --> 02:50:23,480
Speaker 4: up going from this position of isolation to this position

2839
02:50:23,879 --> 02:50:29,480
Speaker 4: of profound interrelation, and then you begin to focus on

2840
02:50:30,280 --> 02:50:40,000
Speaker 4: the interactions between people rather than just the experiences within people.

2841
02:50:41,760 --> 02:50:44,760
Speaker 4: In the sphere of philosophical anthropology, while Vera argues that

2842
02:50:45,000 --> 02:50:49,560
Speaker 4: are contrivial to and would mean redefining humanity, you know,

2843
02:50:49,640 --> 02:50:52,800
Speaker 4: taking this concept that you know, we're not just these

2844
02:50:52,840 --> 02:50:56,840
Speaker 4: purely logical and calculating beings. We are Homo sapiens. And

2845
02:50:57,040 --> 02:50:59,879
Speaker 4: the term sapiens is derived from the Latin word for taste,

2846
02:51:00,480 --> 02:51:05,240
Speaker 4: which highlights the human capacity to constantly try and test,

2847
02:51:06,080 --> 02:51:10,600
Speaker 4: to constantly experiments, to actually participate in interactions with our surroundings.

2848
02:51:13,480 --> 02:51:17,600
Speaker 4: So in this cond of your turn, we return to

2849
02:51:19,680 --> 02:51:26,200
Speaker 4: the original definition of the name we gave ourselves right

2850
02:51:26,840 --> 02:51:34,000
Speaker 4: as taste does as flexible, educable, subject to investigation and improvement,

2851
02:51:35,400 --> 02:51:38,400
Speaker 4: constantly testing and experiment and then seeing what is best

2852
02:51:38,480 --> 02:51:46,400
Speaker 4: in specific contexts. Seeing that taste as sapiens, as homo sapiens,

2853
02:51:46,920 --> 02:51:54,160
Speaker 4: taste is inherently pluralistic because there is no universe cell taste.

2854
02:51:54,720 --> 02:51:57,680
Speaker 4: There is no single taste that is like, oh, this

2855
02:51:57,920 --> 02:51:59,959
Speaker 4: is the taste. Everybody must have cared to this taste.

2856
02:52:00,440 --> 02:52:03,360
Speaker 4: Everybody has a different taste. We talk about that when

2857
02:52:03,440 --> 02:52:07,800
Speaker 4: we talk about taste, and I think the implications are

2858
02:52:07,959 --> 02:52:12,880
Speaker 4: particularly profound when we bring it into the preferative, this

2859
02:52:12,920 --> 02:52:19,120
Speaker 4: sphere of profriative politics. Right whereas tasters as experimenters, we

2860
02:52:19,240 --> 02:52:23,880
Speaker 4: are looking for ways to prefigure new social relations and

2861
02:52:23,920 --> 02:52:28,680
Speaker 4: institutions and relationships and structures and systems for the future

2862
02:52:28,760 --> 02:52:31,200
Speaker 4: in the here now, and that requires tastes, and that

2863
02:52:31,280 --> 02:52:35,560
Speaker 4: requires experimentation. That requires an acceptance of pluralism, because everyone

2864
02:52:35,600 --> 02:52:37,480
Speaker 4: has a different taste, and everyone's going to bring something

2865
02:52:37,560 --> 02:52:42,600
Speaker 4: different to the table, and that's beautiful. And then also

2866
02:52:42,640 --> 02:52:46,520
Speaker 4: in the field of epistemology, the confribulist perspective challenges the

2867
02:52:46,560 --> 02:52:50,760
Speaker 4: opposition between subject and object to understand reality, rejects the

2868
02:52:50,840 --> 02:52:53,400
Speaker 4: idea of the mind as a mere mirror reflecting reality

2869
02:52:54,000 --> 02:52:58,600
Speaker 4: or project imposts and conceptual schemes onto reality. Because confivialism

2870
02:52:58,720 --> 02:53:05,720
Speaker 4: is about how the intermediaries, the facility to interactions, how

2871
02:53:05,840 --> 02:53:09,040
Speaker 4: they affect the way that we perceive and reflect on

2872
02:53:09,200 --> 02:53:13,520
Speaker 4: reality itself. It also requires us to let go of

2873
02:53:13,640 --> 02:53:19,640
Speaker 4: this subject object dichotomy in our pursuit of knowledge and understanding,

2874
02:53:19,720 --> 02:53:24,879
Speaker 4: which itself has implications on even the field of science.

2875
02:53:25,120 --> 02:53:30,160
Speaker 4: Because you know, the idea of the scientists and the

2876
02:53:30,240 --> 02:53:38,440
Speaker 4: popular imagination is you know the subject who is whatever

2877
02:53:38,560 --> 02:53:43,959
Speaker 4: that scientist is studying, that is the object. But contrivialism

2878
02:53:45,000 --> 02:53:48,520
Speaker 4: caused us to pause and reflect on how that subject,

2879
02:53:48,640 --> 02:53:53,720
Speaker 4: that object, and how intermediary is between them affect their

2880
02:53:53,800 --> 02:53:58,360
Speaker 4: perception of each other, affect the subject, the scientist's ability

2881
02:53:58,360 --> 02:54:02,400
Speaker 4: to pursue knowledge and understanding the objects if the object

2882
02:54:02,480 --> 02:54:05,440
Speaker 4: is a pooston to do the same. And finally, Baver

2883
02:54:05,640 --> 02:54:11,280
Speaker 4: digs into the rigid division between nature and culture and

2884
02:54:11,400 --> 02:54:17,320
Speaker 4: how the convivilous perspective challenges that. The continuous interactions and

2885
02:54:17,400 --> 02:54:30,119
Speaker 4: transformations that occur in existence makes it problematic to consider

2886
02:54:30,520 --> 02:54:35,360
Speaker 4: the divisions between human societies, between human societies and the

2887
02:54:35,440 --> 02:54:41,000
Speaker 4: ecosystems that surround them as fundamental aspects of existence. Right,

2888
02:54:41,800 --> 02:54:49,119
Speaker 4: the boundary between nature and culture is one that constantly blues.

2889
02:54:49,200 --> 02:54:54,320
Speaker 4: It is difficult to place, particularly when there's an embrace

2890
02:54:54,560 --> 02:54:59,400
Speaker 4: by certain cultures of that interconnectedness and interdependence between their

2891
02:54:59,480 --> 02:55:03,080
Speaker 4: culture and the nature that surrounds them. And then when

2892
02:55:03,200 --> 02:55:07,720
Speaker 4: you see that blurring of lines between culture and nature,

2893
02:55:08,360 --> 02:55:12,879
Speaker 4: you might also recognize a blurring of lines between human

2894
02:55:13,120 --> 02:55:16,320
Speaker 4: and non human In the context of community, the idea

2895
02:55:16,320 --> 02:55:23,960
Speaker 4: of community being exclusively human domain becomes less apt, I suppose,

2896
02:55:25,400 --> 02:55:30,760
Speaker 4: as it recognize the way that non humans influence and

2897
02:55:30,920 --> 02:55:36,560
Speaker 4: effect and engage and interact with humans in this you know, collectivity.

2898
02:55:38,720 --> 02:55:44,480
Speaker 4: We use terms like community and city and society and

2899
02:55:44,480 --> 02:55:49,440
Speaker 4: stuff to refer to the human aspects of interaction, and

2900
02:55:49,520 --> 02:55:54,400
Speaker 4: we use things like ecosystem and biome to emphasize non

2901
02:55:54,480 --> 02:55:59,680
Speaker 4: human aspects of interaction. But the interactions in humans, animals,

2902
02:56:00,040 --> 02:56:04,199
Speaker 4: and inanimate entity is to not always thought so neatly

2903
02:56:04,440 --> 02:56:10,400
Speaker 4: into that metaphysical description of reality. Of course, we use

2904
02:56:10,440 --> 02:56:13,360
Speaker 4: these divisions for certain specific research purposes. We say, oh,

2905
02:56:13,400 --> 02:56:18,000
Speaker 4: I'm a sociologist, I'm an anthropologist, I'm a biologist and ecologist,

2906
02:56:18,040 --> 02:56:25,000
Speaker 4: et cetera. But we can't forget that convivialism. Conviviality asks

2907
02:56:25,080 --> 02:56:30,160
Speaker 4: us not to forget that those are human impositions that

2908
02:56:31,360 --> 02:56:37,160
Speaker 4: we should not let obscure our ability to make sense

2909
02:56:37,360 --> 02:56:41,720
Speaker 4: of reality as a whole. I know, things got really

2910
02:56:42,440 --> 02:56:46,119
Speaker 4: heavy there. I hope that everything I said made sense.

2911
02:56:47,520 --> 02:56:51,080
Speaker 4: And if you need a breather or some time to

2912
02:56:51,720 --> 02:56:56,640
Speaker 4: pause and reflect further on the implications on this simple

2913
02:56:57,040 --> 02:57:02,160
Speaker 4: cute fun to say a little Latin word conviviality. We're

2914
02:57:02,200 --> 02:57:07,600
Speaker 4: going to take a pause here, but next time you

2915
02:57:07,680 --> 02:57:10,920
Speaker 4: can join us as we discuss how people have gone

2916
02:57:10,959 --> 02:57:18,040
Speaker 4: from this term to urge his ideas two Jourve's philosophical

2917
02:57:18,080 --> 02:57:23,440
Speaker 4: indications to more recent manifestos of the convivial movement and

2918
02:57:23,600 --> 02:57:28,080
Speaker 4: how they can relate to the growth and beyond. You

2919
02:57:28,160 --> 02:57:32,960
Speaker 4: can find me on YouTube dot com slash Andrewism and

2920
02:57:33,160 --> 02:57:35,320
Speaker 4: you can support beyond peach in dot com slash Saint

2921
02:57:35,400 --> 02:57:43,320
Speaker 4: Drew once again, I'm Andrew, joined by Mia and this

2922
02:57:44,480 --> 02:58:04,720
Speaker 4: is it could happen here. Its welcome to Part two

2923
02:58:05,400 --> 02:58:06,959
Speaker 4: of conviviality.

2924
02:58:08,080 --> 02:58:08,480
Speaker 8: What is it?

2925
02:58:09,560 --> 02:58:13,320
Speaker 4: What are people thinking about it? How is this funky

2926
02:58:13,440 --> 02:58:17,119
Speaker 4: Latin would changing and evolving and sitting into an entire movement,

2927
02:58:17,720 --> 02:58:21,879
Speaker 4: and how is it affecting other movements. The last time,

2928
02:58:21,920 --> 02:58:25,959
Speaker 4: we spoke about the idea of conviviality, you know, which

2929
02:58:26,080 --> 02:58:36,400
Speaker 4: is essentially good vibes, fun, happy, chill, cool interactions between

2930
02:58:36,520 --> 02:58:39,640
Speaker 4: people you know, living well together and joint life in

2931
02:58:39,680 --> 02:58:43,000
Speaker 4: the company of others, making sure people are included and

2932
02:58:43,160 --> 02:58:46,000
Speaker 4: welcomed so they can relax and have a great experience.

2933
02:58:47,360 --> 02:58:52,360
Speaker 4: We spoke about the illist multi hyphen it. That is

2934
02:58:52,760 --> 02:58:58,080
Speaker 4: Ivan Ilich. We spoke allut the philosophical foundations that are

2935
02:58:58,120 --> 02:59:02,320
Speaker 4: being built around conviviality, what those implications have been on

2936
02:59:02,440 --> 02:59:07,240
Speaker 4: metaphysics and philosophical anthropology and epistemology and more. And so

2937
02:59:07,360 --> 02:59:10,160
Speaker 4: now we're going to get into the actual movement. So

2938
02:59:10,280 --> 02:59:13,920
Speaker 4: the first manifesto was published by the Center for Global

2939
02:59:14,280 --> 02:59:18,760
Speaker 4: Cooperation Research in twenty fourteen. It discusses some of our

2940
02:59:18,879 --> 02:59:23,039
Speaker 4: current threats, including global warming and its consequences, ecosystem degradation,

2941
02:59:23,320 --> 02:59:27,920
Speaker 4: nuclear disaster risk, resource case ty, poverty, well disparities, political disintegration,

2942
02:59:28,400 --> 02:59:32,200
Speaker 4: instate conflicts, terrorism and security, criminal networks, influencers, specultive of

2943
02:59:32,240 --> 02:59:36,480
Speaker 4: financial politics, blah blah blah blah blah. You know, you

2944
02:59:36,560 --> 02:59:39,800
Speaker 4: know the drill. If you're in this space, everything sucks.

2945
02:59:39,920 --> 02:59:42,119
Speaker 4: It could happen here. That's the name of the show,

2946
02:59:43,520 --> 02:59:48,480
Speaker 4: et cetera. The central challenges that we could drive ourselves

2947
02:59:48,520 --> 02:59:51,120
Speaker 4: the extinction right now, and if we don't turn this

2948
02:59:51,240 --> 02:59:53,680
Speaker 4: car around, and we could take most of the world

2949
02:59:53,760 --> 02:59:57,440
Speaker 4: with us. This particular manifesto, which is asking four basic

2950
02:59:57,800 --> 03:00:03,560
Speaker 4: questions and their considerations and what we should consider about them.

2951
03:00:04,480 --> 03:00:11,720
Speaker 4: Right For one, for moral question, what may individuals legitimately

2952
03:00:11,800 --> 03:00:15,200
Speaker 4: aspire to and where must they draw the line? And

2953
03:00:15,560 --> 03:00:19,800
Speaker 4: the Manifesto answers with considering that every individual has a

2954
03:00:19,920 --> 03:00:24,040
Speaker 4: legitimate aspiration to be treated with equal dignity, to have

2955
03:00:24,240 --> 03:00:26,840
Speaker 4: access to the necessary material conditions for their vision of

2956
03:00:26,879 --> 03:00:30,920
Speaker 4: a good life or considering other's perspectives, and participate meaningfully

2957
03:00:31,000 --> 03:00:35,360
Speaker 4: in political life and decision making. However, individuals must also

2958
03:00:35,440 --> 03:00:41,000
Speaker 4: avoid exceed inbounds and succumb in to this infantile desire

2959
03:00:41,160 --> 03:00:45,760
Speaker 4: for power and control, which jeopardizes social cohesion and the

2960
03:00:45,840 --> 03:00:50,240
Speaker 4: principle of common humanity. What that means is that we

2961
03:00:50,400 --> 03:00:56,000
Speaker 4: need to actively be combatant corruption, refusing to engage in

2962
03:00:56,120 --> 03:01:00,440
Speaker 4: actions that compromise police and values for personal gain, posing

2963
03:01:00,440 --> 03:01:05,959
Speaker 4: the corruption others to the extent of wuntabilities encourage fighting hierarchy.

2964
03:01:06,040 --> 03:01:08,760
Speaker 4: I mean to manifesto doesn't say a thing about fighting hierarchy,

2965
03:01:08,840 --> 03:01:11,120
Speaker 4: which I think is a fall to the manifesto. But

2966
03:01:11,240 --> 03:01:13,520
Speaker 4: I think for ANATICI is reading it, the implications are

2967
03:01:13,560 --> 03:01:15,280
Speaker 4: pretty clear. And that's what I have to do with

2968
03:01:15,320 --> 03:01:17,280
Speaker 4: a lot of stuff I read, you know, like read

2969
03:01:17,360 --> 03:01:20,920
Speaker 4: between the lines and pick up the points that the

2970
03:01:21,000 --> 03:01:25,560
Speaker 4: author missed. And so that's the moral consideration right, What

2971
03:01:25,760 --> 03:01:28,320
Speaker 4: should we aspire to? Where must we draw the line?

2972
03:01:28,680 --> 03:01:31,120
Speaker 4: We aspire to being true with equal dignity, have an

2973
03:01:31,200 --> 03:01:34,680
Speaker 4: access to decision making power, having a good life by

2974
03:01:34,720 --> 03:01:38,680
Speaker 4: having access to material conditions met, and we try to

2975
03:01:38,879 --> 03:01:43,120
Speaker 4: avoid exceeding boundaries our social boundaries, and we should try

2976
03:01:43,200 --> 03:01:48,800
Speaker 4: to avoid exceeding social boundaries related to hierarchy and control

2977
03:01:49,280 --> 03:01:55,760
Speaker 4: and power. The second question is political. It asks us

2978
03:01:56,240 --> 03:02:01,520
Speaker 4: which are the legitimate political communities. So the manifesto argues

2979
03:02:01,560 --> 03:02:03,680
Speaker 4: that the establishment of a single wild state in their

2980
03:02:03,720 --> 03:02:07,040
Speaker 4: future is unlikely and the political organization will continue to

2981
03:02:07,040 --> 03:02:09,880
Speaker 4: be based on the plurality of states, and that I

2982
03:02:10,000 --> 03:02:14,320
Speaker 4: think demonstrates the limitations of this manifesto's imagination are configurable.

2983
03:02:14,360 --> 03:02:18,880
Speaker 4: This well, that's what happens when you have this clearly

2984
03:02:19,000 --> 03:02:23,279
Speaker 4: radical idea and you try to squeeze the radical idea

2985
03:02:23,840 --> 03:02:29,320
Speaker 4: into a fundamentally unradical and statistical idea as nation states.

2986
03:02:32,000 --> 03:02:36,000
Speaker 4: But let me not excessively editorialized. I'm just presenting this

2987
03:02:36,200 --> 03:02:39,800
Speaker 4: movement and what its proponents have been arguing. Right, according

2988
03:02:39,840 --> 03:02:44,640
Speaker 4: to their perspective, states and political institutions are considered legitimate

2989
03:02:44,800 --> 03:02:50,120
Speaker 4: only if they uphold principles such as common humanity, common sociality, individuation,

2990
03:02:50,840 --> 03:02:56,240
Speaker 4: and managed conflict. To me, that's wishful thinking. But I

2991
03:02:56,400 --> 03:03:01,400
Speaker 4: digress legitimate states, and it pains me to even say this.

2992
03:03:01,680 --> 03:03:06,520
Speaker 4: But again, just communicating, just communicating what the manifesto argues.

2993
03:03:07,080 --> 03:03:11,240
Speaker 4: The legitimate states extend rights beyond civil and political rights,

2994
03:03:11,520 --> 03:03:16,720
Speaker 4: encompass economic, social, cultural, and environmental rights. They ensure a

2995
03:03:16,879 --> 03:03:20,640
Speaker 4: minimum income for the poorest citizens, while also implemented a

2996
03:03:20,800 --> 03:03:25,520
Speaker 4: maximum income to prevent excessive wealth accumulation. The legitimate states

2997
03:03:25,640 --> 03:03:29,360
Speaker 4: maintain a balance between private, common, collective and public goods

2998
03:03:29,760 --> 03:03:33,920
Speaker 4: and promote associational activities within a global civil society. They

2999
03:03:34,000 --> 03:03:37,640
Speaker 4: view digital networks as cools, as tools for democratization and

3000
03:03:37,760 --> 03:03:41,320
Speaker 4: treat them as commons foster and openness, free access and

3001
03:03:41,440 --> 03:03:49,000
Speaker 4: partiality and sharing. And they also revive the tradition of

3002
03:03:49,040 --> 03:03:53,560
Speaker 4: public service and prioritize the preservation of existing common goods

3003
03:03:54,080 --> 03:03:56,640
Speaker 4: while promoting the developments of new common goods for the

3004
03:03:56,680 --> 03:04:05,160
Speaker 4: benefit of humanity. Again, it goes without saying I take

3005
03:04:05,280 --> 03:04:08,120
Speaker 4: issue with this investment in states. I think a lot

3006
03:04:08,200 --> 03:04:12,440
Speaker 4: of their goals are noble, if not if they were

3007
03:04:12,520 --> 03:04:15,400
Speaker 4: not so tied down with this investment in this state structure.

3008
03:04:17,680 --> 03:04:21,920
Speaker 4: Because from an anarchist perspective, many of these ideas are

3009
03:04:21,920 --> 03:04:28,160
Speaker 4: not compatible with the structure of a state. And even theoretically,

3010
03:04:28,320 --> 03:04:32,560
Speaker 4: even hypothetically, if a state would implement all these changes

3011
03:04:33,800 --> 03:04:38,680
Speaker 4: where people had full participerty involvement and decision making, where

3012
03:04:38,959 --> 03:04:45,640
Speaker 4: the where the hierarchies were flattened, and where everyone had

3013
03:04:45,680 --> 03:04:48,200
Speaker 4: free access and open access and their commons and all

3014
03:04:48,240 --> 03:04:53,879
Speaker 4: this laddida some anarchists, not every but some anarchists wouldn't

3015
03:04:54,120 --> 03:04:59,560
Speaker 4: even consider that to be a state anymore. But that's

3016
03:04:59,600 --> 03:05:03,120
Speaker 4: just getting the weeds of anarchist discourse and we're moving on.

3017
03:05:04,600 --> 03:05:08,400
Speaker 4: The third question that the Manifesto ask is an ecological question,

3018
03:05:08,920 --> 03:05:12,960
Speaker 4: which is what we may take from nature and which

3019
03:05:13,040 --> 03:05:17,040
Speaker 4: is what we must take from nature? Which is what

3020
03:05:17,280 --> 03:05:21,640
Speaker 4: we may take from nature and what we must give back?

3021
03:05:23,200 --> 03:05:26,280
Speaker 4: And the Manifesto asks us to consider that human beings

3022
03:05:26,320 --> 03:05:29,640
Speaker 4: should no longer see themselves as owners and masters of nature,

3023
03:05:29,959 --> 03:05:33,920
Speaker 4: but rather interconnected with it. Right to ensure ecological justice

3024
03:05:34,000 --> 03:05:37,760
Speaker 4: and preserve a well managed natural heritage for future generations,

3025
03:05:38,200 --> 03:05:41,520
Speaker 4: humans us establish a relationship with nature based on giving

3026
03:05:41,640 --> 03:05:45,760
Speaker 4: back as much or more than they take. The Manifesto

3027
03:05:45,879 --> 03:05:49,120
Speaker 4: argues that the level of material prosperity that can be

3028
03:05:49,240 --> 03:05:53,080
Speaker 4: sustainably extended to the entire planet is roughly comparable to

3029
03:05:53,120 --> 03:05:56,120
Speaker 4: the average wealth of the wealthiest countries in the nineteen seventies,

3030
03:05:56,720 --> 03:05:59,760
Speaker 4: and that wealthier nations must be the responsibility to reduce

3031
03:05:59,800 --> 03:06:03,800
Speaker 4: the demand on nature relative to nineteen seventy standards, even

3032
03:06:03,840 --> 03:06:07,400
Speaker 4: as they maintain their current quality of life. Priorities of

3033
03:06:07,560 --> 03:06:11,600
Speaker 4: this Manifesto include reducing to two emissions, emphasize and renewable

3034
03:06:11,680 --> 03:06:16,120
Speaker 4: energy sources over nuclear and fossil fuels, and shifting away

3035
03:06:16,160 --> 03:06:20,760
Speaker 4: from viewing animals as mare resources for industry. The principles

3036
03:06:20,800 --> 03:06:25,400
Speaker 4: of gift and interdependence should thus guide relationships with animals

3037
03:06:25,520 --> 03:06:29,680
Speaker 4: and the earth as a whole. Lastly, the first Manifesto

3038
03:06:30,720 --> 03:06:33,280
Speaker 4: leaves us with an economic question, which is how much

3039
03:06:33,360 --> 03:06:36,640
Speaker 4: material wealth we may reproduce and how should we go

3040
03:06:36,760 --> 03:06:39,080
Speaker 4: about producing it? If we had to remain true to

3041
03:06:39,120 --> 03:06:43,440
Speaker 4: the answers given to the moral, political, and ecological questions,

3042
03:06:44,760 --> 03:06:48,520
Speaker 4: Manifesto asks us to consider there's no proven connection between

3043
03:06:48,640 --> 03:06:52,480
Speaker 4: monetary or material wealth and happiness, which promotes the need

3044
03:06:52,600 --> 03:06:57,000
Speaker 4: then to explore alternative forms of prosperity beyond economic growth.

3045
03:06:58,320 --> 03:07:00,680
Speaker 4: As you can see early on, we're making those connections

3046
03:07:00,760 --> 03:07:02,960
Speaker 4: to the idea of de growth. More on that later,

3047
03:07:04,160 --> 03:07:07,200
Speaker 4: And so this cause for a plural economy that balances

3048
03:07:07,280 --> 03:07:10,440
Speaker 4: the market, the public sector, and social solidarity economy based

3049
03:07:10,480 --> 03:07:14,760
Speaker 4: on the nature of goods and services involved. Again their perspective,

3050
03:07:14,959 --> 03:07:20,760
Speaker 4: but while the markets and profitability are legitimate, they must

3051
03:07:20,840 --> 03:07:26,520
Speaker 4: align with principles of common humanity, social cohesion, and ecological considerations.

3052
03:07:28,360 --> 03:07:33,000
Speaker 4: And by addressing the issues of the financial economy such

3053
03:07:33,040 --> 03:07:37,840
Speaker 4: as renterrorism and speculation through strict regulation, oversight, market restrictions

3054
03:07:37,879 --> 03:07:41,040
Speaker 4: and elimination of tax events, humanity can tap into a

3055
03:07:41,120 --> 03:07:45,080
Speaker 4: broader spectrum of riches beyond economic and material wealth, including

3056
03:07:45,120 --> 03:07:49,560
Speaker 4: fulfillment derived from duty, solidarity, enjoyment, and creativity inferious domains,

3057
03:07:50,879 --> 03:07:54,760
Speaker 4: which of course highlights the importance of creativity and meaningful

3058
03:07:54,800 --> 03:07:59,560
Speaker 4: relationships with others as an essential component of a prosperous society,

3059
03:08:00,120 --> 03:08:06,120
Speaker 4: even if not materially or monetarily prosperous. The manifestor goes

3060
03:08:06,160 --> 03:08:09,240
Speaker 4: on to define confrivulism, the term that they use to

3061
03:08:09,320 --> 03:08:13,520
Speaker 4: describe all those elements and existing systems of belief that

3062
03:08:13,680 --> 03:08:17,560
Speaker 4: help us identify principles for enabling human beings simultaneously to

3063
03:08:17,600 --> 03:08:20,879
Speaker 4: compete and cooperate with one another with a shared concern

3064
03:08:21,280 --> 03:08:24,199
Speaker 4: to safeguard the world and the full knowledge the reformed

3065
03:08:24,280 --> 03:08:28,160
Speaker 4: part of that world and that its natural resources are finite.

3066
03:08:30,879 --> 03:08:33,440
Speaker 4: When it comes to convivialism, it's crucial for us to

3067
03:08:33,480 --> 03:08:37,440
Speaker 4: hold on certain principles that can guide us imagine conflict,

3068
03:08:37,840 --> 03:08:41,560
Speaker 4: prioritizeing cooperation while being mindful of the limitations posed by

3069
03:08:41,640 --> 03:08:46,800
Speaker 4: scarce resources, recognizing respect not to interviewpoints and doctrines, opening

3070
03:08:46,879 --> 03:08:49,840
Speaker 4: the door to engage in dialogue and praise to his perspectives,

3071
03:08:49,920 --> 03:08:53,120
Speaker 4: and being open to question it and growth. All of

3072
03:08:53,200 --> 03:08:56,920
Speaker 4: that this manifesto sees as essential to the idea of confibulism.

3073
03:08:58,080 --> 03:09:02,760
Speaker 4: It even goes on to propose convivialist policies, right, you know,

3074
03:09:02,840 --> 03:09:08,760
Speaker 4: the minimum maximum income, protecting natural resources through various reforms

3075
03:09:08,920 --> 03:09:19,440
Speaker 4: and regulations, tackling unemployments, promoting reduced working hours, supporting the

3076
03:09:19,560 --> 03:09:23,400
Speaker 4: growth of the Associationists economy. Of course, I feel that's

3077
03:09:23,400 --> 03:09:29,960
Speaker 4: where the manifesto falls short, But I do appreciate they

3078
03:09:30,000 --> 03:09:32,680
Speaker 4: had some of the ideas that it introduces or that

3079
03:09:32,800 --> 03:09:37,400
Speaker 4: it expounds upon. I mean, I'd appreciate all of the

3080
03:09:37,600 --> 03:09:41,800
Speaker 4: answers to the questions that itself that it raises. But

3081
03:09:41,879 --> 03:09:45,120
Speaker 4: I appreciated raising those questions, even if I might have

3082
03:09:45,240 --> 03:09:50,480
Speaker 4: slightly different answers to them. The thesis of this manifesto

3083
03:09:50,600 --> 03:09:52,400
Speaker 4: seems to be that a different kind of will is

3084
03:09:52,440 --> 03:09:56,520
Speaker 4: not just possible, but crucial and urgently necessary. I don't

3085
03:09:56,680 --> 03:10:01,120
Speaker 4: like that it doesn't call out capitalism sufficiently or really

3086
03:10:01,200 --> 03:10:01,560
Speaker 4: at all.

3087
03:10:02,240 --> 03:10:04,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems to have an overly cozy relationship with

3088
03:10:04,640 --> 03:10:05,440
Speaker 3: the state, too.

3089
03:10:05,440 --> 03:10:09,200
Speaker 4: Which is yeah, yeah, greatest not cool.

3090
03:10:09,600 --> 03:10:10,440
Speaker 3: They do say.

3091
03:10:11,840 --> 03:10:16,800
Speaker 4: Quote, there will clearly be as many, perhaps conflicting permutations

3092
03:10:16,840 --> 03:10:23,879
Speaker 4: of convivialism as there are of Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, liberalism, socialism, communism,

3093
03:10:23,920 --> 03:10:28,039
Speaker 4: et cetera, not least because convivialism in no way invalidates

3094
03:10:28,120 --> 03:10:33,840
Speaker 4: these So fair enough, in a sense, I appreciate that

3095
03:10:33,920 --> 03:10:38,880
Speaker 4: they can accept that their particular interpretation is not the

3096
03:10:38,959 --> 03:10:41,640
Speaker 4: only one that there can be. I'm sure by this

3097
03:10:41,800 --> 03:10:46,400
Speaker 4: particular passage they mean that there will be socialist orientations

3098
03:10:46,440 --> 03:10:51,199
Speaker 4: of convivialism and liberal orientations of convivialism, and Christian orientations

3099
03:10:51,200 --> 03:10:54,959
Speaker 4: of convivialism and et cetera, because they don't see convivialism

3100
03:10:55,080 --> 03:10:58,000
Speaker 4: as incompatible with any of them. I think I might

3101
03:10:58,080 --> 03:11:03,119
Speaker 4: take some issue with I guess not refining contribualism further.

3102
03:11:03,680 --> 03:11:08,400
Speaker 4: I appreciate that they themselves didn't refine it, because you know,

3103
03:11:08,440 --> 03:11:14,080
Speaker 4: they're clearly quite liberal, but I think that contribualism as

3104
03:11:14,080 --> 03:11:21,000
Speaker 4: an idea is something at least we uh distilled further.

3105
03:11:22,320 --> 03:11:25,760
Speaker 4: Because when you have this sort of free for all,

3106
03:11:27,280 --> 03:11:31,360
Speaker 4: everybody and everything goes approach to the ideology, I think

3107
03:11:31,400 --> 03:11:35,200
Speaker 4: it opens up a lot of room for states and

3108
03:11:35,360 --> 03:11:38,240
Speaker 4: corporations and ngus to kind of slip in there and

3109
03:11:38,400 --> 03:11:41,320
Speaker 4: be like, oh, look at us, we are going to

3110
03:11:41,440 --> 03:11:47,880
Speaker 4: add confriviunism to our constitution and that kind of thing.

3111
03:11:47,920 --> 03:11:51,120
Speaker 4: It's like then they go and everyone applause and like wow,

3112
03:11:52,200 --> 03:11:56,760
Speaker 4: xyz government just added contribualism to their constitution. Three chairs

3113
03:11:56,800 --> 03:11:57,039
Speaker 4: for them.

3114
03:11:57,080 --> 03:11:57,360
Speaker 2: And then the.

3115
03:11:57,400 --> 03:11:59,879
Speaker 4: Government just continues doing what it usually was doing before

3116
03:12:00,080 --> 03:12:02,080
Speaker 4: it added convicuim to its constitution.

3117
03:12:03,720 --> 03:12:03,880
Speaker 5: You know.

3118
03:12:03,959 --> 03:12:06,120
Speaker 4: It's like with the whole I spoke about in my

3119
03:12:06,520 --> 03:12:10,080
Speaker 4: vere podcast episode. Yeah, it's kind of like a situation

3120
03:12:10,280 --> 03:12:14,920
Speaker 4: yasunni it t right. Ecadorian government was like, we are

3121
03:12:15,000 --> 03:12:17,400
Speaker 4: going to protect this forest. We're not going to drill

3122
03:12:17,520 --> 03:12:20,520
Speaker 4: for oil in this forest, even though it has a

3123
03:12:20,600 --> 03:12:24,680
Speaker 4: bunch of oil in this forest, over six billion dollars

3124
03:12:24,720 --> 03:12:26,280
Speaker 4: with oil in this forest. We're just going to ask

3125
03:12:26,360 --> 03:12:29,320
Speaker 4: the international community for like three point six billion of

3126
03:12:29,480 --> 03:12:35,120
Speaker 4: that oil, and once you'll pay that, we're not going

3127
03:12:35,200 --> 03:12:36,920
Speaker 4: to drill the oil. And we want to set this

3128
03:12:37,080 --> 03:12:39,720
Speaker 4: precedent for other countries to follow, and YadA YadA, and

3129
03:12:39,840 --> 03:12:44,840
Speaker 4: we added to our constitution and all our cash money. Right,

3130
03:12:44,959 --> 03:12:49,480
Speaker 4: but then they got like two hundred million dollars worth

3131
03:12:49,520 --> 03:12:51,840
Speaker 4: of pledges, and then they were like, actually, you know,

3132
03:12:51,920 --> 03:12:53,520
Speaker 4: we're still going to do it even though we didn't

3133
03:12:53,520 --> 03:12:55,680
Speaker 4: get all the money. And then related they're like, nah,

3134
03:12:55,879 --> 03:12:57,680
Speaker 4: we're not going to do it anymore. And then a

3135
03:12:57,720 --> 03:13:00,520
Speaker 4: couple of years after that they started drilling in the

3136
03:13:01,400 --> 03:13:03,600
Speaker 4: National Park, and a couple of years after that, yeah,

3137
03:13:03,920 --> 03:13:06,800
Speaker 4: they started drilling even for the even closer to indigenous

3138
03:13:06,879 --> 03:13:10,200
Speaker 4: territories within the park. So you know, that's like I

3139
03:13:10,600 --> 03:13:15,880
Speaker 4: caught up in the fluffy words of states and corporations.

3140
03:13:15,240 --> 03:13:17,039
Speaker 3: And yeah, there was a there's a there's a version

3141
03:13:17,040 --> 03:13:19,000
Speaker 3: of this that happen in Bolivia where they did like

3142
03:13:19,040 --> 03:13:21,800
Speaker 3: a very similar thing. And then within half a decade, uh,

3143
03:13:22,280 --> 03:13:25,040
Speaker 3: like riot police were storming the offices of like of

3144
03:13:25,160 --> 03:13:27,400
Speaker 3: one of the giant like indigious confederations.

3145
03:13:27,760 --> 03:13:33,400
Speaker 4: So it's you know, yeah, I mean keep in mind,

3146
03:13:34,080 --> 03:13:36,360
Speaker 4: a lot of what states do, a lot of politicians too,

3147
03:13:36,520 --> 03:13:39,360
Speaker 4: is just pr right, And I think a lot of

3148
03:13:39,400 --> 03:13:41,400
Speaker 4: people are able to recognize that when it's happened in

3149
03:13:41,440 --> 03:13:47,039
Speaker 4: their own country, but due to ignorance perhaps of other countries,

3150
03:13:47,800 --> 03:13:49,600
Speaker 4: they see a politician doing the same thing in another

3151
03:13:49,640 --> 03:13:52,080
Speaker 4: country and they're like, wow, why can't we be more

3152
03:13:52,200 --> 03:13:55,199
Speaker 4: like them? And it's like, well, yeah, it to be fair,

3153
03:13:55,280 --> 03:13:57,800
Speaker 4: you know, there are politicians and governments that are doing

3154
03:13:57,920 --> 03:14:00,920
Speaker 4: better than other politicians and governments, and I'm not gonna

3155
03:14:01,000 --> 03:14:02,240
Speaker 4: like blind my eye to that.

3156
03:14:03,080 --> 03:14:03,160
Speaker 5: But.

3157
03:14:05,400 --> 03:14:08,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, at the end of the day, there's

3158
03:14:08,040 --> 03:14:12,520
Speaker 4: still politicians, there's still governments. They're still doing their pr

3159
03:14:12,959 --> 03:14:15,520
Speaker 4: putting out their best image, put on the best foot forward,

3160
03:14:15,680 --> 03:14:18,720
Speaker 4: to hold on to whatever poet they have.

3161
03:14:20,360 --> 03:14:23,959
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and with both Ecuador and Bolivia too, it's like, well, okay,

3162
03:14:24,000 --> 03:14:26,240
Speaker 3: if if you want your politicians to have pr like that,

3163
03:14:26,520 --> 03:14:29,200
Speaker 3: like you two can block every single road and your

3164
03:14:29,240 --> 03:14:31,039
Speaker 3: country start starving your capital out.

3165
03:14:31,080 --> 03:14:31,160
Speaker 9: Like.

3166
03:14:35,320 --> 03:14:40,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the politicians do not descend from the heavens.

3167
03:14:40,120 --> 03:14:44,080
Speaker 3: They are the product of a combination of material conditions

3168
03:14:44,120 --> 03:14:47,279
Speaker 3: and social forces, so get better social forces.

3169
03:14:48,640 --> 03:14:54,800
Speaker 4: Exactly exactly, that's that's the that's how it elevates a

3170
03:14:54,840 --> 03:14:57,959
Speaker 4: pitch for anarchism. By the way, but I did say

3171
03:14:58,000 --> 03:15:00,440
Speaker 4: they were two manifestos, right, So what about the second

3172
03:15:00,640 --> 03:15:06,760
Speaker 4: manifesto right, Contributist Manifesto number two published by the Convivialist

3173
03:15:06,879 --> 03:15:14,520
Speaker 4: International in twenty twenty recent and they define Confiviualism as

3174
03:15:14,600 --> 03:15:19,440
Speaker 4: a comprehensive philosophy that encompasses humanist, civic and political principles

3175
03:15:19,520 --> 03:15:22,360
Speaker 4: aimed at foster and harmonia scooling systems in the modern era,

3176
03:15:23,240 --> 03:15:26,960
Speaker 4: emphasize and the importance of living together and outlining normative

3177
03:15:27,000 --> 03:15:34,800
Speaker 4: principles to guide that enteval second Manifesto of Convivialism emphasizes

3178
03:15:34,840 --> 03:15:38,480
Speaker 4: the need for a new political philosophy to challenge neoliberalism

3179
03:15:38,560 --> 03:15:45,800
Speaker 4: and address global issues. Pause. This idea of is something

3180
03:15:45,840 --> 03:15:50,080
Speaker 4: that you see a lot, particularly in that sort of

3181
03:15:50,240 --> 03:15:57,200
Speaker 4: engio space. Right, A lot of not radical organizations and

3182
03:15:57,320 --> 03:16:02,879
Speaker 4: movements will speak about challenging in newliberalism. And he could

3183
03:16:03,000 --> 03:16:06,879
Speaker 4: usually tell because they specify new liberalism, they don't say capitalism.

3184
03:16:07,440 --> 03:16:10,840
Speaker 4: They're not anti capitalists. They're just anti neoliberalism, which in

3185
03:16:10,920 --> 03:16:13,560
Speaker 4: itself is not u radical because new liberalism in itself

3186
03:16:13,680 --> 03:16:17,320
Speaker 4: is just a recent permutation of capitalism.

3187
03:16:17,800 --> 03:16:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I should point out, like they're as bad

3188
03:16:21,879 --> 03:16:25,440
Speaker 3: as neoliberalism is, like there are forms of capitalism that

3189
03:16:25,480 --> 03:16:28,840
Speaker 3: are worse than it. So yeah, yeah, you know, see

3190
03:16:29,080 --> 03:16:34,880
Speaker 3: see as evidence world War two. Uh yeah, yeah, just

3191
03:16:34,959 --> 03:16:38,640
Speaker 3: why I just wanted to put that on the record. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

3192
03:16:38,760 --> 03:16:39,039
Speaker 3: but just.

3193
03:16:39,760 --> 03:16:44,240
Speaker 4: Just for the sake of people's own ability to scrutinize

3194
03:16:44,320 --> 03:16:49,760
Speaker 4: information and scrutinized movements. It's an interesting trick of the

3195
03:16:49,879 --> 03:16:53,960
Speaker 4: language because by rallying against newliberalism, they're able to like

3196
03:16:54,080 --> 03:16:56,600
Speaker 4: bring in all of the anti capitalist people into the

3197
03:16:56,680 --> 03:17:02,880
Speaker 4: mix and draw from that crowd. But a lot of

3198
03:17:02,920 --> 03:17:08,480
Speaker 4: these movements are not themselves anti capitalists. And you know,

3199
03:17:08,560 --> 03:17:11,760
Speaker 4: if you want something more than a nicer capitalism, that

3200
03:17:11,920 --> 03:17:14,280
Speaker 4: is something to keep in mind. Even if you and

3201
03:17:14,560 --> 03:17:16,600
Speaker 4: even if you know you take part in the movement,

3202
03:17:17,680 --> 03:17:20,720
Speaker 4: nothing wrong with that, still something to keep in mind.

3203
03:17:22,680 --> 03:17:25,480
Speaker 4: So the Second Manifesto, it also highlights the interconnectedness of

3204
03:17:25,560 --> 03:17:30,600
Speaker 4: young people's concerns about climate change and environmental degradation. Talks

3205
03:17:30,600 --> 03:17:33,360
Speaker 4: about the struggles of those seeking freedom from dictatorships or

3206
03:17:33,440 --> 03:17:38,000
Speaker 4: those being forced to migrate, and it aims to offer

3207
03:17:38,120 --> 03:17:41,560
Speaker 4: an alternative vision for a post neoliberal world where promoting

3208
03:17:41,720 --> 03:17:48,040
Speaker 4: shared values and a sense of agency. Furious intellectuals, activists,

3209
03:17:48,120 --> 03:17:51,240
Speaker 4: rights and artists so all committed to this collective project

3210
03:17:51,680 --> 03:17:54,760
Speaker 4: with the aim of creating this globally shared vision for

3211
03:17:54,800 --> 03:18:02,240
Speaker 4: the future that is more inclusive and more participatory. The manifesto,

3212
03:18:02,320 --> 03:18:09,000
Speaker 4: the second manifesto, like the first one, talks about the

3213
03:18:09,560 --> 03:18:13,400
Speaker 4: post World War two growth in principles like human rights

3214
03:18:14,800 --> 03:18:18,280
Speaker 4: and the shift in capitalism towards speculative and rent air practices.

3215
03:18:19,240 --> 03:18:24,600
Speaker 4: Talks about the decline of liberal democracies and the rise

3216
03:18:24,840 --> 03:18:30,600
Speaker 4: of illiberal democriturs, and it speaks about resentment growing from

3217
03:18:30,720 --> 03:18:39,640
Speaker 4: pastical domination and radical movements including Al Qaeda, reflecting that animosity. Again,

3218
03:18:39,720 --> 03:18:43,720
Speaker 4: like the previous manifesto, talks about ecological threats like global

3219
03:18:43,760 --> 03:18:50,120
Speaker 4: warming and air pollution, oceanic pollution and accumulation of plastic waste,

3220
03:18:50,240 --> 03:18:57,040
Speaker 4: nuclear disasters, weekends, ecosystems rise and employment, job displacement, wealth inequality,

3221
03:18:58,240 --> 03:19:02,600
Speaker 4: lack of regulation for transnational company is, political fragmentation, and terrorism.

3222
03:19:03,800 --> 03:19:08,760
Speaker 4: All that fun stuff and this time the second Manifesto

3223
03:19:10,040 --> 03:19:15,400
Speaker 4: outlines five principles to form the basis of policies or

3224
03:19:15,480 --> 03:19:24,040
Speaker 4: ethics or organizational actions. Right common naturality, common humanity, common sociality,

3225
03:19:24,920 --> 03:19:32,200
Speaker 4: legitimate individuation, and creative opposition. These principles emphasize one the

3226
03:19:32,280 --> 03:19:37,160
Speaker 4: interconnectedness of humans with nature to the importance of respecting

3227
03:19:37,200 --> 03:19:41,200
Speaker 4: the shared humanity of all individuals, three the value of

3228
03:19:41,320 --> 03:19:45,280
Speaker 4: social relationships for the need for individuals to develop the

3229
03:19:45,320 --> 03:19:49,760
Speaker 4: individuality or respecting others, and five the recognition of peaceful

3230
03:19:49,920 --> 03:19:54,680
Speaker 4: rivalry for the common good. These principles are meant to

3231
03:19:54,720 --> 03:20:02,560
Speaker 4: be guided by the imperative of hubrist control, which promotes

3232
03:20:02,760 --> 03:20:07,560
Speaker 4: cooperation and prevents the desire for power and excess. The

3233
03:20:07,680 --> 03:20:10,480
Speaker 4: manifesto all symphasizes the importance of balance and these principles

3234
03:20:10,520 --> 03:20:15,440
Speaker 4: to avoid their potential negative consequences. One of the things

3235
03:20:15,480 --> 03:20:19,320
Speaker 4: that the Manifesto is really trying to get at in particular,

3236
03:20:19,520 --> 03:20:24,040
Speaker 4: and the reason that it even establishes this imperative for

3237
03:20:24,200 --> 03:20:30,960
Speaker 4: hubrist control, is because it argues that ideologies focus primarily

3238
03:20:31,000 --> 03:20:34,680
Speaker 4: on satisfying material needs and overlook the crucial role of

3239
03:20:34,760 --> 03:20:39,000
Speaker 4: recognition and desire, and that by reducing politics of the

3240
03:20:39,120 --> 03:20:43,200
Speaker 4: fulfillment of needs. Ideologies fail to address the problem of

3241
03:20:43,400 --> 03:20:46,960
Speaker 4: limiting the desire for power and control. To me, it

3242
03:20:47,080 --> 03:20:50,400
Speaker 4: just seems like the people who wrote this manifesto aren't

3243
03:20:50,400 --> 03:20:58,720
Speaker 4: familiar with anarchism and anarchism's centuries long confrontation with power,

3244
03:20:58,920 --> 03:21:03,280
Speaker 4: control and the desire for it that has altered the

3245
03:21:03,400 --> 03:21:09,480
Speaker 4: course of very various human societies. Right I digress. Manifestoo

3246
03:21:09,520 --> 03:21:14,360
Speaker 4: instead points to religions as playing the historical role of

3247
03:21:14,520 --> 03:21:21,720
Speaker 4: trying to curb our desire for power and control. That

3248
03:21:21,920 --> 03:21:24,760
Speaker 4: seems to me like a very poor argument considering the

3249
03:21:24,840 --> 03:21:29,120
Speaker 4: history of religion. But the point that the manifestoro is

3250
03:21:29,120 --> 03:21:32,600
Speaker 4: trying to make is that modern democratic discourses struggle to

3251
03:21:32,680 --> 03:21:37,080
Speaker 4: restrain limitless desire and often reproduce the humors that they

3252
03:21:37,120 --> 03:21:42,519
Speaker 4: aim to combat, and so the role of a contributist

3253
03:21:42,600 --> 03:21:47,440
Speaker 4: movement then should be in part on persuading individuals to

3254
03:21:47,520 --> 03:21:54,440
Speaker 4: renounce the desire for dominance and reinforce the principles of

3255
03:21:54,520 --> 03:22:03,760
Speaker 4: common humanity, sociality, naturality in legitimate interviewation and create opposition. Again,

3256
03:22:04,000 --> 03:22:06,440
Speaker 4: I don't think that the direction people are taking conviviulalism

3257
03:22:06,560 --> 03:22:08,680
Speaker 4: is rotically enough, because I think it leaves room for

3258
03:22:08,720 --> 03:22:12,000
Speaker 4: it to fall into existing structures. I mean, the manifest

3259
03:22:12,080 --> 03:22:16,520
Speaker 4: even talks about creating a convivialist party to reignite hopen

3260
03:22:16,600 --> 03:22:17,600
Speaker 4: liberal democracy.

3261
03:22:18,240 --> 03:22:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I also want to just point out the

3262
03:22:20,760 --> 03:22:21,240
Speaker 3: sort of like.

3263
03:22:23,200 --> 03:22:23,760
Speaker 4: Just how.

3264
03:22:25,879 --> 03:22:29,760
Speaker 3: How weak of a position it is to you know,

3265
03:22:30,160 --> 03:22:33,359
Speaker 3: have one of your goals be just to convince individual

3266
03:22:33,480 --> 03:22:36,960
Speaker 3: people to want less power. Like I think that's just

3267
03:22:38,240 --> 03:22:41,879
Speaker 3: just sort of boldly anti structural as a present prescription.

3268
03:22:43,640 --> 03:22:47,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I mean, I guess that's something that I've

3269
03:22:47,879 --> 03:22:53,960
Speaker 4: come to expect from Sid millieuse, right, a lack of

3270
03:22:54,080 --> 03:23:00,760
Speaker 4: engagement with structural domination and how struct just inform how

3271
03:23:00,879 --> 03:23:07,760
Speaker 4: individuals behave you know, like, yes, individuals act within structures,

3272
03:23:07,879 --> 03:23:11,640
Speaker 4: but I think people have asked your underestimate structural incentives,

3273
03:23:11,959 --> 03:23:15,200
Speaker 4: Like it's not just about oh, if you get rid

3274
03:23:15,240 --> 03:23:17,280
Speaker 4: of this bad person from a position of power, but

3275
03:23:17,440 --> 03:23:19,160
Speaker 4: this good person in a position of power, and everything

3276
03:23:19,160 --> 03:23:23,680
Speaker 4: will be hunky dory. Like nah, there's still there's still

3277
03:23:23,800 --> 03:23:26,160
Speaker 4: like you still haven't confronted the way that that structure,

3278
03:23:26,680 --> 03:23:32,280
Speaker 4: that position incentivizes certain behavior. But like I said before,

3279
03:23:32,600 --> 03:23:35,080
Speaker 4: I'm an anarchist. I take what I like, I leave

3280
03:23:35,120 --> 03:23:37,760
Speaker 4: what I don't They're also say, a manifest with the

3281
03:23:37,840 --> 03:23:42,520
Speaker 4: confivilism belongs to nobody. So I've decided that, you know,

3282
03:23:42,600 --> 03:23:44,960
Speaker 4: my version of confiviulism is not going to be this

3283
03:23:46,640 --> 03:23:54,080
Speaker 4: water down, watercress salad kind of pathy, weak limpristed take on,

3284
03:23:55,200 --> 03:24:02,720
Speaker 4: you know, world alter and structural change. Lastly, I didn't

3285
03:24:02,720 --> 03:24:05,640
Speaker 4: want to touch on because I could say I would.

3286
03:24:06,800 --> 03:24:09,080
Speaker 4: The significant role that conviviality is played in the de

3287
03:24:09,240 --> 03:24:13,800
Speaker 4: growth movement, particularly highlighted in texts like The Growth of

3288
03:24:13,959 --> 03:24:20,720
Speaker 4: Vocabulary for a New Era inspired by Evan's ideas conviviality

3289
03:24:20,760 --> 03:24:23,360
Speaker 4: and the growth has referred to me nature society that

3290
03:24:23,560 --> 03:24:28,720
Speaker 4: values joyful sobriety, responsible consumption, and the use of limited

3291
03:24:28,760 --> 03:24:33,480
Speaker 4: tools that are emmanspiratory and responsor to human needs. The

3292
03:24:33,600 --> 03:24:37,400
Speaker 4: ideas that Ivan outlined and tools of conviviality which I

3293
03:24:37,440 --> 03:24:39,440
Speaker 4: spoke on in the first part of this two parter

3294
03:24:41,560 --> 03:24:43,920
Speaker 4: is considered part of the intellectual roots of the growth

3295
03:24:44,000 --> 03:24:48,160
Speaker 4: as an idea itself, and conviviality is often discussed in

3296
03:24:48,280 --> 03:24:55,480
Speaker 4: relation to technologies, including digital technologies, and how technology is

3297
03:24:55,560 --> 03:25:01,800
Speaker 4: suitable to a de growth society must be convivial. One

3298
03:25:01,879 --> 03:25:08,039
Speaker 4: particular tool has been developed for self assessment political education

3299
03:25:08,160 --> 03:25:10,880
Speaker 4: and researcher and I with confivial principles, and that is

3300
03:25:10,959 --> 03:25:17,160
Speaker 4: the matrix for contrivial technology or MCT, and the matrix

3301
03:25:17,240 --> 03:25:22,600
Speaker 4: for convivial technology is to go through a very basic definition,

3302
03:25:26,760 --> 03:25:31,640
Speaker 4: a normative schema that Forster's discussion concerning de growth technologies

3303
03:25:32,160 --> 03:25:37,480
Speaker 4: in context of political education them city is meant first

3304
03:25:37,640 --> 03:25:46,959
Speaker 4: to reflect on the dimensions of the materials we use

3305
03:25:47,000 --> 03:25:50,000
Speaker 4: in technology is and how we produce the technologies, how

3306
03:25:50,080 --> 03:25:53,480
Speaker 4: we use the technologies, how technologies fit into the infrastructure,

3307
03:25:54,600 --> 03:26:04,400
Speaker 4: how accessible they are, how interactive they are with the environment,

3308
03:26:05,040 --> 03:26:11,120
Speaker 4: how adaptable they are and change in circumstances, and much more,

3309
03:26:11,760 --> 03:26:16,520
Speaker 4: how appropriate they are and much more. But beyond the MSCT,

3310
03:26:16,800 --> 03:26:18,840
Speaker 4: conviviality is are also being used in the de growth

3311
03:26:18,920 --> 03:26:25,600
Speaker 4: space to describe public spaces, goods, conservation movements, and even humans.

3312
03:26:25,800 --> 03:26:31,280
Speaker 4: Within the growth literature, transitioning to a convivial society is

3313
03:26:31,320 --> 03:26:34,320
Speaker 4: considered to be one of the core objectives of the

3314
03:26:34,400 --> 03:26:37,240
Speaker 4: de growth movement, one of the core shifts that needs

3315
03:26:37,240 --> 03:26:42,520
Speaker 4: to take place us for us to de grow as

3316
03:26:43,000 --> 03:26:46,400
Speaker 4: a society. And so that's all in short of it.

3317
03:26:47,480 --> 03:26:53,320
Speaker 4: The convivialist manifesto convivialism and contriviality, as ideas how they've

3318
03:26:54,120 --> 03:26:57,359
Speaker 4: changed and been adapted, and how people have been building

3319
03:26:57,520 --> 03:27:02,359
Speaker 4: on the ideas therein in the sphere of philosophy and politics,

3320
03:27:02,760 --> 03:27:07,720
Speaker 4: education and technology and more food for thought. I hope

3321
03:27:07,720 --> 03:27:12,600
Speaker 4: you appreciated this briefly exploration, as I like to say

3322
03:27:12,600 --> 03:27:15,360
Speaker 4: at the end of my videos, and I consider it

3323
03:27:15,440 --> 03:27:19,960
Speaker 4: particularly aptaining the context of conviviality and convivial technology. Is

3324
03:27:20,920 --> 03:27:23,640
Speaker 4: all power to all the people. Once again, you could

3325
03:27:23,800 --> 03:27:27,880
Speaker 4: find me Andrew on YouTube dot com slash andeurism and

3326
03:27:28,000 --> 03:27:31,400
Speaker 4: support me on feature dot com slash saying true and

3327
03:27:32,640 --> 03:27:37,800
Speaker 4: as usual this has been It could happen here, where

3328
03:27:38,200 --> 03:27:40,879
Speaker 4: things happen, we talk about stuff. Peace.

3329
03:27:44,240 --> 03:27:47,360
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3330
03:27:47,480 --> 03:27:49,320
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3331
03:27:49,959 --> 03:27:52,280
Speaker 3: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3332
03:27:52,560 --> 03:27:55,199
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3333
03:27:55,240 --> 03:27:57,440
Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

3334
03:27:57,520 --> 03:28:01,360
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or every listen to podcasts. You

3335
03:28:01,440 --> 03:28:03,840
Speaker 3: can find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly

3336
03:28:04,160 --> 03:28:06,520
Speaker 3: at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

3337
03:28:06,720 --> 03:28:07,520
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening,