WEBVTT - The Pro Palestine Movement Two Years After Genocide 0:00:01.639 --> 0:00:04.960 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.440 Hello everyone, this is Dana al Kurd for It could 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:12.160 happen here. I'm a professor and analyst of Palestinian and 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.640 air politics, and today we're joined by Ahmed Moore, who 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.800 is the twenty twenty five Foundation for Middle East Peace Fellow. 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:23.800 He's also an author, an activist, just very very involved 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.400 in the Palestinian space and on the question of Palstini liberation. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.200 So I've invited Ahma today to discuss with us what 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.560 we can understand about pro Palestine organizing in the past 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:40.320 two years in comparison to prior to October seventh, twenty 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.159 twenty three, and think kind of analytically about where we 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.640 can go from here. We're recording this on November fifth, 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.680 twenty twenty five. We had a very interesting night last 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.080 night whereas Ahran Mandani was named the mayor of New 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.320 York City and a lot of think pieces since about 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.400 how this means nothing and actually it means everything and 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.760 Lapro Palstine movement is winning, it's really not winning enough, 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.839 et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, we're in an interesting 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.440 moment in American politics. I think the Palestine question is 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:11.800 obviously very very relevant. 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:13.039 So yeah, I met. 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:14.480 Welcome to the podcast. 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:16.400 Thank you, Donna. It's pleasure to be here. 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:17.120 All right. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.960 So maybe we can start with kind of an introduction 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.160 to yourself. You can tell us about your experience as 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.080 an activist, as an organizer. 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:26.520 Sure, yes, as a researcher. 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:27.080 Yeah. 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.320 So I was born in resident Palestine and Gaza and 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.000 Ralphah and my family moved here when I was a 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.440 kid and became naturalized so American citizen when I was 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:38.080 ten years old. 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.080 So that was in the mid nineties. 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.440 And you know, went to college right after nine to eleven, 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.680 and like lots of people, was galvanized around that experience. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:49.160 I think that was a pier. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:51.840 Was so a journalist both in Bede Lutin and Cairo, 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.600 and often you'd meet American journalists roughly of my generation, 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.560 and all of them would indicate that, you know, I 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.280 became engaged around the Middle EA because of nine to eleven. 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.160 I think nine to eleven was four our generation, a 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.160 big learning opportunity for people. The global war on terror, 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.799 the war in Iraq galvanized a lot of the left 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.040 and I'm thinking now of. 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:16.919 Move on dot org. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:18.880 And so this is really the environment that I grew 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:23.680 up in today. I mostly work with The Guardian with 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.040 the Nation mostly right about Palistige, Israel and American foreign policy. 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:28.880 And as you mentioned, I'm a fellow at the Foundation 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:34.200 for Middle East Peace, where I host a podcast, Occupied Thoughts, 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.960 where we spend a lot of time thinking through policy 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:41.760 matters related to Palisigan. I have ideas about things have changed, 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.200 but that's just a quick introduction to me and my work. 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.399 No, thank you, we're approximately the same age. I won't 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:54.079 tell you exactly how often, but yeah, I just am 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.720 reflecting so much these days on how much the War 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:02.359 on Terror was a formative moment politically for our generation, 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:07.040 and its interaction with the Palestinian issue. I think that's 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:10.399 starting to really be understood more widely. I think maybe 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.079 it was more fringe or like a very select kind 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.760 of understanding of the left would have that kind of 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:17.799 analysis for sure. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:19.840 Just to put a fine point on it, I mean 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.600 that was the I would say generational awareness that we've 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.280 been lied to. We've been lied to by Dick Cheney, 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.440 George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, all of that cohort those people. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.280 You can see how that's rebounded today in Maine with 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:36.000 Graham Plattner, somebody who fought two or three tours and 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:41.880 then subsequently worked as a mercenary with Blackwater was radicalized, 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.160 I would say through that experience when he was watching 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:48.440 these happy, go lucky diplomats swimming in pools in a 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:54.040 diplomatic compound, when just outside a savage war was being 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.960 waged or an insurgency. So I would say that, you know, 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.400 Palestine is so deeply into woven. Palestine is a long 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.200 history of having been lied to for people here in 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.080 the United States. Domestically that came to a head around 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.720 the Iraq War. We werelied into that war. And I 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:14.320 think you saw, you saw the way that the Biden 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.560 administration particularly stuck with the playbook and alienated huge numbers 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.200 of voters in twenty twenty four. So Palestine is kind 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.560 of indispensaled understanding how our elites in the United States 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:33.680 have been captured by special interests, by corporatist interests, and 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.760 we're beginning to see that, I think rebound in meaningful ways. 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:41.719 And of course, congratulations is Ron Mundani done a wonderful job. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.440 He ran an extraordinary campaign. I question, though, whether the 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.960 campaign could have been successful without the awakening that occurred 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:50.440 through two. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:51.240 Years of genocide. 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.839 And what I mean by that specifically is so many 0:04:54.880 --> 0:05:00.679 of the taboos that had been enforced around identity, around 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.440 good politics in America were dispensed with because those taboos 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.560 were employed to suppress opposition to genocide. 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.200 Yeah. No, I think you're right on the money on that. 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.719 I mean, in some ways, the MAGA movement in Donald 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:19.240 Trump also capitalized on the lies of the war on 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.800 Terror too. I mean, despite the incoherence of the MAGA movement, 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.159 like that was part of a rebuke of the neocons. 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.320 But of course the left is, especially after two years 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:34.200 of unspeakable genocide. I think it has led to just 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:39.240 an articulation of how much the American foreign policy in 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.320 the Middle East is. You mentioned boomerang. That's an imperial 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.680 boomerang that is impacting American politics. It's also highlighted how 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.320 much the elite and public opinion is bifurcated on this. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.280 Palatin has become an issue of democracy. I don't want 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.360 to put words in your mouth, but that's what I 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:54.839 would say. 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.240 No, I think that's correct. I agree with that. 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.200 I mean, so Palestine went from being specifically Palestine, from 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.839 being a niche issue when I was in college post 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.560 colonial studies. Majors knew about Palestine and could integrate Palestine 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.880 into an understanding of life in America to being really 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.000 part of the American story today, and I think it's 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.920 apt to describe it that way. The experience of watching 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.599 a genocide unfold for two years has been radicalizing for many, 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.680 but it's also been enlightening in that the first question 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.960 was why is this happening? The second question is why 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.560 can't we stop it? Okay, Israel's an independent country, we 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:33.840 can't control them. 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:36.280 Fine, why are we still supporting this? 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.720 And ultimately you end up going down that rabbit hole 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:41.919 and arriving at what is this Israel lobby? 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:43.120 What is this special interest? 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.600 And so I think the degree of complicity, the way 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.159 in which the Biden administration blew so much smoke, the 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.719 way in which both sides of the Aisle engaged in 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:58.159 genocide and cheered the genocide, really has caused the Palestine 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.840 issue to become deeply interwoven with the experience of being 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.560 American today. And I don't think that's an overstatement, and 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.440 I think concretely it means that you need an answer 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.000 to the question, Well, if you can't stand up to genocide, 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.320 if you can't stand up for defenseless children in Palestine, 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:14.760 and if you're going to lie to me about it, 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:16.960 why would I expect you to stand up for anything 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.760 meaningful as it relates to my standard of living, Say, 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.280 I'm a working class person. And so it's become this 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.520 litmus test at least on the left, and I think 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.440 you're seeing a similar dynamic playout on the right, but 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.960 for totally different reasons. Right, And it's been extraordinary to 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:32.760 behold because I think so many of us who've been 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:37.120 in this issue for so long, we've been marking our 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.720 progress in incrementalist terms, and then suddenly things have broken 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.160 wide open and the world has changed very very quickly. 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:45.400 Yeah. 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.240 From my vantage point in American academia, I mean, they 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.880 might have had personal feelings about Israel Palestine, they may 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.400 have had sympathies, but so few people would ever talk 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.240 about the erasure of Palestine in the academy, or the 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:06.040 impact of censorship and attacks on academic freedom. But now 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.960 because the Palaestinan issue is being used as this cudgel 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.720 to attack higher education, like you're just a normal Joshmo 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.360 like math professor you're gonna have to care, and you do. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.240 And we're seeing this very much with the mobilization of 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.040 the American Association of University Professors, that is not a 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:28.000 Middle East specific organization whatsoever, but they recognize the linkages 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.440 between these issues, so in the ways that Palestine is 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:35.080 interwoven with but also has impacted so many of our 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:39.280 current realities and the policies that we're facing by the 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.400 Trump administration and the Bye administration before them. Yeah, I 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:55.040 think it's very clear to a lot of people. So 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.319 that actually brings me to one of the main questions 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.679 that I wanted to ask you, is, aside from kind 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:04.319 of the increased awareness and the taboos that have been 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.800 broken around the discussion of Palestine and its integration in 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.200 American foreign policy and American domestic policy, what are some 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:16.000 other ways that you think since the genocide began that 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.520 pro Palestine organizing has changed. 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.239 So the biggest thing I've seen is that the analytical 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.840 frame has changed. We used to talk about foreign policy 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.200 adventurers and wars for oil, those kinds of things. Now 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.160 I think the analysis is very correctly focused on empire, 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.720 the way in which resources domestically the real working class 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.280 effort to build a life in the United States is 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.480 subsumed by wars of really imperial overreach. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:47.600 The whole idea of. 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.840 Empire for me was an antiquated one I didn't think 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.520 had a whole lot of relevance today. But I think 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.280 I and many others who may have thought in that 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.440 way missed the point the realities that empires intact. I 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.200 think that awareness that our efforts domestically are deeply, deeply 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.360 intertwined with what's happening what we're doing elsewhere, is important, 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.199 and it's emergent, it's new. When I was in graduate school, 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.200 you would hear people talk about how they're engaged with 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.880 domestic policy, or people talk about their infests in foreign policy, 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.000 and I was mostly interested in foreign policy. But today 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:25.880 to try to draw that differentiation is really meaningless. And 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:27.560 again you see that in the race in New York 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.120 Mom Donnie did run on affordability. He ran on a 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.400 domestic policy program, but equally thirty eight percent I think 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.840 of voters were heavily motivated by his foreign policy interests. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.840 In his foreign policy perspectives, which again from a policy 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.160 point of view, he can't really impact, but nonetheless are 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.439 supported by this idea that our taxes, what we do 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:54.000 domestically is having a huge impact everywhere else in the world, 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:58.040 and that American empires sprawling at a challenge for people 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:02.000 domestically as well. A pure activist point of view, you know, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:07.840 I used to have a real belief in electoral politics 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:14.520 that was shaken deeply through the DNC, through the grassroots effort. 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:19.120 To be heard uncommitted. Yeah, the uncommitted movement precisely. We'll 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:20.040 see where things go. 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.560 I mean, the truth is that, you know, the person 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.960 who is just selected in Jersey is a typical I 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:31.760 believe APAC Democrat, Mike Cheryl. My perspective domestically is that 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.160 we need to be aggressive, We need to be forceful 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:39.120 in calling for a total reconstitution of Democratic Party, no 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.640 half measures, and I think Zarn mndonie did a good 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.240 job of illustrating what that could look like. 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.480 Yeah, I mean, there's always a tension in this very 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.439 money captured system that we have that at certain level 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.160 it doesn't really matter liberal or Republican. 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:53.960 They are captured. 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.640 But I think what the New York City race has 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.240 demonstrated is like that can only go so far. You 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.880 still need some public support, which is why of course 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.000 they're going after gerrymandering and all of that. But yeah, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.760 it's an uphill battle. But I think if this democracy 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.760 is to exist, we are in a better footing than 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.840 we were, you know, on this discussion, I also wondering 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.600 what you think of this characterization, which is that I 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:23.079 think before this genocide, and I don't mean to create 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.360 this binary, but it has been a very transformative event. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:29.600 Before this genocide, I think a lot of Palestinian American 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:35.240 organizing in spaces discussed the issue of Palestine in a 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:40.439 right spaceed approach way, so about human rights, about ending auparthide, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.280 about extending rights, and I think the framing for that 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.439 has also changed. It is really a critique of settler 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:50.840 colonialism and the legitimacy of these nation states. First of all, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:52.760 what do you think of that characterization on my end? 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.240 But also what do you think of the tension then 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:59.760 that poses for the Palestinian national liberation movement that still 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:00.559 wants the state. 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.080 Yeah, you're right. The thing again, the analytic frame has shifted. 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.800 We've gone from a contested conversation around nineteen sixty seven, 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.200 the June War, when Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.560 Gosta from Egypt, Jerusalem as well from Jordan, the Goal 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.800 on Heights, some Syria, and a small siliver of land 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.760 from Lebanon to nineteen forty eight. That's what we talk 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.040 about now, and that's correct, and. 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.200 I think for many Palestinians or Palestinian Americans that has 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.839 always been the starting point of the conversation. But now 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.200 we have the political legitimacy to say, wait a second, 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:39.280 this whole state was founded upon separate and unequal on 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:44.199 Jewish supremacy, on a point of view that we reject 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.760 as Americans and we should reject everywhere in the world. 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.720 And so I think that's the first meaningful change that 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.560 I've seen when we talk about Palestine. And then of 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.200 course settled colonialism is built into that analysis. Things get 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.800 a little bit different when you zoom out. Let me 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.880 just talk about domestic I think that when you talk 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:08.079 to people on the left, the universalist argument everybody's created 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.160 equal is very, very powerful and resonant, and it's the 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.520 one that I believe in. But what's happening on the 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.560 right as well is an America first argument, and the 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.680 word protectorate comes up repeatedly. Why are we investing so 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.800 much in a protectorate Tucker Carlston powerfully, I think for 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.280 his audience, and this is probably the most influential commentator 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.320 in the United States to day, but powerfully, you know, said, 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.560 this country has half the size, half the economy the 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:39.040 state of Connecticut. Why have we invested so much political capital, 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.360 so much money and something which is so immaterial, especially 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.520 when it pays a big negative dividend in lots of 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:51.800 different ways. So the nativist argument is meeting the universalist argument. 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.920 But the core analysis around settled in colonialism, around the 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.520 lack of legitimacy for a supremacist state, gives rise to 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:01.400 both of those arguments. 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:02.120 That access to the. 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.920 Substrate, I would say, Palestinians who want to see a 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.680 Palestinian state, and how you're going back to Palestine. I 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.080 don't know what that means today. I've heard perspectives that 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:16.080 availing ourselves of statehood as a legal construct will mean 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.760 that you can now access legal frameworks to pursue justice 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.000 in the courts wherever they may exist. 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:24.920 I hope that's true. Let's see what works out. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:26.520 I think there are people who are trying to take 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.480 Israeli men dual nationals who participated in the genocide to 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.200 court in France, I think by using some of the 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.640 some of the laws that exist between recognized states and 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:40.360 non states, or maybe the UK. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:42.680 Let's see if robber meets road there. 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.920 I support those tactics, but practically, when you're talking about 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:51.680 Palestinian liberation, I don't believe that a state which has 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.600 been colonized out of existence. And you kind of have 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:55.560 to look at a map to see what I mean here, 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.120 but the West Bank is thoroughly colonized. Gaza is still 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.760 occupied by these Raelies and will likely be slowly ethnically 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.600 cleansed over time and not rebuilt. I fail to see 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:09.480 how a state illegal construct is going to yield real 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.600 benefits with the people on the ground now in Palestine. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:18.600 I agree, and I think that the continuation of this framework, 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:20.920 the statehood framework that a lot of our kind of 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.360 political elites in the Palestinian landscape continue to use, and 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.520 a lot of these countries in the global North use, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.640 also to bypass with work that actually needs to be 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:37.160 done after a genocide. It's certainly a distraction in my view, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.600 but it also speaks to the renewal that needs to 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:45.040 happen within Palestinian politics and within the PLO, But that's 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:58.520 a bigger matter. My next question was going to be 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.120 on the Palestine American diaspora. In what ways do you 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:07.679 think the passing American diaspora is alike with people in 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.399 historic Palestine, with other diasporas, and in what ways do 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:12.480 you think that they're unique. 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.080 That's a hard question for me to answer. 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.080 I think the diaspora, in the way that I've interacted 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.720 with people, is diverse. What people have in common is 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.119 a common reference point, the Neca. They have a common 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:30.119 understanding around the illegitimacy of Israel as an ethno state 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.919 which takes Jewish supremacy as its point of departure. But 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.040 it's a very diverse diaspora. I mean, our first Palisian 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.320 American in Congress is Justin Amash, who is on the right. 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:42.920 That's right. I always forget about him. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.440 Yeah, I mean he had relatives who were murdered in 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:49.000 Visa at a church in northern Vesa, which dates back 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:53.240 to I think the eleventh century. So we're diverse diaspora. 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.879 I think the Palisinian diaspora in the United States is integrated, 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.920 it's educated, that's the past for lots of Palestinians around 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:03.359 the world. It's how you get out, it's how you 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.560 build alive. We have a very high literacy rate in Palestine, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:10.800 exceeds ninety nine point five percent. But I think where 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.480 the diaspora hasn't, at least in the United States, done 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.080 as effective a job. And this is kind of the 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.399 natural trajectory I think of diaspora communities generally. I don't 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.919 know that we're as aggressive and organized as we could be. 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.720 And I want to emphasize the word aggressive, the idea 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.119 that we can go out and compete at all levels 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.479 of government, that we can go out and assert our 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.920 understanding of history backed by facts. We should be doing 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.199 more of that, especially when you look kind of across 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.200 the board when it comes to people who are doing 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.840 well in medicine or in business, you know where there's 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.639 been a real career risk for speaking out and for 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.640 being assertive. We can do more now, and we should 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.119 use the leverage gain through two years of genocide, the 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.159 most expensive of access to leverage I can imagine, to 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:04.960 push much harder politically. 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.600 Yeah, that's a very good point. I'm also wondering how 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:14.520 well you think the Palestinian organizing groups and spaces. How 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.800 well integrated are they into other activist issue areas. 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.600 Yeah, I think this is where when I was in college, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.440 I didn't know the word intersectionality. That wasn't a concept 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.520 that really was one that people thought about. You know, 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.600 you would host an event and you would invite your friends, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.960 some of whom would be in the Black students group, 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:34.800 some of whom would be in the Queer students group, 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.879 and just regular left groups. But today I'd say that 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:43.399 activists have a much more complete sense of how you 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:47.000 almost have a social quilt, and a compression on one 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.479 part of it will impact everything else that's related to it, 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.200 and we're all interrelated in that way. I'd say that 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:57.600 the most potent discussions around palestign are coming from left 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:02.280 organizing groups, not exactly Palestinian organizing groups. I think if 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.520 I could offer gentle criticism of Palistine organizers, there's been 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.840 too much and you serviously with uncommitted, too much effort 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:14.400 to ingratiate yourselves to the existing power apparatus to ask 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.879 for a seat at the table. When it's somebody like 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.800 Zoron Mumdani again who demanded a seat at the table 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:26.639 through an unrelenting focus on the issues achieved access to 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.160 a platform, then nobody wanted to seed. And I don't 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:34.600 think that following the rules exactly or being friendly about 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:39.520 accessing platforms within the Democratic parties one yield a huge 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.439 benefit to Palestinian Americans or people here. I'd say the 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.480 most principled organizing is that organizing that's going to win 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.440 and today that comes from non Palestinian groups, and I'm 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.280 okay with that. I don't really think it matters if 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.120 the best argument is coming from somebody whose family comes 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.640 from South Asia through Uganda, or somebody whose family emerges 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.320 from you know, the Ballota refugee camp, that doesn't really 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.560 matter to me. I think just to focus on the 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.120 principles is the most important thing. 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:08.360 Yeah, right right. 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.760 I think we're definitely seeing more of an acceptance of that. 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.399 I agree with the limitations that you referenced. I also 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.879 sometimes do reflect on how matched the discussion is in 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.520 the United States with the discussion in historic Palestine and 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.760 what activists can do to kind of bridge some gaps 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.280 that might emerge. But of course, understanding that we do 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.680 exist in a different political reality and we obviously will 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:33.359 develop different views as a result of that. 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.960 I agree, And look, I mean, nobody needs to be 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:41.760 apologetic about inhabiting a different reality. You know, we don't 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.800 need to defer to a leadership which is divided and 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.639 divided in Palestine and PLO that won't talk to itself. 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:49.639 And there are structural reasons for that, right. 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:51.280 I mean, the Israelis and the Americans have done a 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.800 very effective job in splintering Palaestinine leadership. 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.120 I think we need to think extremely locally. 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.199 There are issues that matter to my community in West Philadelphia, big, 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:05.080 bigger issues across Pennsylvania that impact my life, that impact 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.800 my life as a father of three little girls. So 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:12.399 I think being a member of a community and focusing 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.800 again relentlessly on the principles and the facts that we've 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:19.000 known all along is critical to pushing the conversation on 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.840 Palsign forward and practically today, for me, that means an 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:26.080 arms embargo, it means sanctions, it means a cultural boycott, 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.840 and it means those things unapologetically. Again, those are principal 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:34.000 positions that I can take as an American citizen, a 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:38.360 citizen in a country which has underwritten genocide, has underwritten 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:39.480 apartheid for decades. 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:40.160 Yep. 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:44.840 I think I agree with that analysis. As the author, 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:46.760 which we didn't mention at the beginning, as the author 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:49.760