1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, this is Dana al Kurd for It could 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 2: happen here. I'm a professor and analyst of Palestinian and 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: air politics, and today we're joined by Ahmed Moore, who 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 2: is the twenty twenty five Foundation for Middle East Peace Fellow. 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 2: He's also an author, an activist, just very very involved 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: in the Palestinian space and on the question of Palstini liberation. 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: So I've invited Ahma today to discuss with us what 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 2: we can understand about pro Palestine organizing in the past 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: two years in comparison to prior to October seventh, twenty 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: twenty three, and think kind of analytically about where we 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: can go from here. We're recording this on November fifth, 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. We had a very interesting night last 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: night whereas Ahran Mandani was named the mayor of New 15 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: York City and a lot of think pieces since about 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: how this means nothing and actually it means everything and 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: Lapro Palstine movement is winning, it's really not winning enough, 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, we're in an interesting 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 2: moment in American politics. I think the Palestine question is 20 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: obviously very very relevant. 21 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 3: So yeah, I met. 22 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast. 23 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 3: Thank you, Donna. It's pleasure to be here. 24 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: All right. 25 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 2: So maybe we can start with kind of an introduction 26 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: to yourself. You can tell us about your experience as 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: an activist, as an organizer. 28 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: Sure, yes, as a researcher. 29 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 30 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 4: So I was born in resident Palestine and Gaza and 31 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 4: Ralphah and my family moved here when I was a 32 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 4: kid and became naturalized so American citizen when I was 33 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 4: ten years old. 34 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: So that was in the mid nineties. 35 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 4: And you know, went to college right after nine to eleven, 36 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 4: and like lots of people, was galvanized around that experience. 37 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 3: I think that was a pier. 38 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 4: Was so a journalist both in Bede Lutin and Cairo, 39 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 4: and often you'd meet American journalists roughly of my generation, 40 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 4: and all of them would indicate that, you know, I 41 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 4: became engaged around the Middle EA because of nine to eleven. 42 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 4: I think nine to eleven was four our generation, a 43 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 4: big learning opportunity for people. The global war on terror, 44 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 4: the war in Iraq galvanized a lot of the left 45 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 4: and I'm thinking now of. 46 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 3: Move on dot org. 47 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 4: And so this is really the environment that I grew 48 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 4: up in today. I mostly work with The Guardian with 49 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 4: the Nation mostly right about Palistige, Israel and American foreign policy. 50 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 4: And as you mentioned, I'm a fellow at the Foundation 51 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 4: for Middle East Peace, where I host a podcast, Occupied Thoughts, 52 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 4: where we spend a lot of time thinking through policy 53 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 4: matters related to Palisigan. I have ideas about things have changed, 54 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 4: but that's just a quick introduction to me and my work. 55 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,399 Speaker 2: No, thank you, we're approximately the same age. I won't 56 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: tell you exactly how often, but yeah, I just am 57 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: reflecting so much these days on how much the War 58 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 2: on Terror was a formative moment politically for our generation, 59 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: and its interaction with the Palestinian issue. I think that's 60 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 2: starting to really be understood more widely. I think maybe 61 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: it was more fringe or like a very select kind 62 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: of understanding of the left would have that kind of 63 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 2: analysis for sure. 64 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 4: Just to put a fine point on it, I mean 65 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 4: that was the I would say generational awareness that we've 66 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 4: been lied to. We've been lied to by Dick Cheney, 67 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 4: George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, all of that cohort those people. 68 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 4: You can see how that's rebounded today in Maine with 69 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 4: Graham Plattner, somebody who fought two or three tours and 70 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 4: then subsequently worked as a mercenary with Blackwater was radicalized, 71 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 4: I would say through that experience when he was watching 72 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 4: these happy, go lucky diplomats swimming in pools in a 73 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 4: diplomatic compound, when just outside a savage war was being 74 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 4: waged or an insurgency. So I would say that, you know, 75 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 4: Palestine is so deeply into woven. Palestine is a long 76 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 4: history of having been lied to for people here in 77 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 4: the United States. Domestically that came to a head around 78 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 4: the Iraq War. We werelied into that war. And I 79 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 4: think you saw, you saw the way that the Biden 80 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 4: administration particularly stuck with the playbook and alienated huge numbers 81 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 4: of voters in twenty twenty four. So Palestine is kind 82 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 4: of indispensaled understanding how our elites in the United States 83 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 4: have been captured by special interests, by corporatist interests, and 84 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 4: we're beginning to see that, I think rebound in meaningful ways. 85 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 4: And of course, congratulations is Ron Mundani done a wonderful job. 86 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 4: He ran an extraordinary campaign. I question, though, whether the 87 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 4: campaign could have been successful without the awakening that occurred 88 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 4: through two. 89 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 3: Years of genocide. 90 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 4: And what I mean by that specifically is so many 91 00:04:54,880 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 4: of the taboos that had been enforced around identity, around 92 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 4: good politics in America were dispensed with because those taboos 93 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 4: were employed to suppress opposition to genocide. 94 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think you're right on the money on that. 95 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: I mean, in some ways, the MAGA movement in Donald 96 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: Trump also capitalized on the lies of the war on 97 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: Terror too. I mean, despite the incoherence of the MAGA movement, 98 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: like that was part of a rebuke of the neocons. 99 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: But of course the left is, especially after two years 100 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: of unspeakable genocide. I think it has led to just 101 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: an articulation of how much the American foreign policy in 102 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: the Middle East is. You mentioned boomerang. That's an imperial 103 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: boomerang that is impacting American politics. It's also highlighted how 104 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: much the elite and public opinion is bifurcated on this. 105 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 2: Palatin has become an issue of democracy. I don't want 106 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 2: to put words in your mouth, but that's what I 107 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: would say. 108 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: No, I think that's correct. I agree with that. 109 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 4: I mean, so Palestine went from being specifically Palestine, from 110 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 4: being a niche issue when I was in college post 111 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 4: colonial studies. Majors knew about Palestine and could integrate Palestine 112 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 4: into an understanding of life in America to being really 113 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 4: part of the American story today, and I think it's 114 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 4: apt to describe it that way. The experience of watching 115 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 4: a genocide unfold for two years has been radicalizing for many, 116 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 4: but it's also been enlightening in that the first question 117 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 4: was why is this happening? The second question is why 118 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 4: can't we stop it? Okay, Israel's an independent country, we 119 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 4: can't control them. 120 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 3: Fine, why are we still supporting this? 121 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 4: And ultimately you end up going down that rabbit hole 122 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 4: and arriving at what is this Israel lobby? 123 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: What is this special interest? 124 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 4: And so I think the degree of complicity, the way 125 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 4: in which the Biden administration blew so much smoke, the 126 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 4: way in which both sides of the Aisle engaged in 127 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 4: genocide and cheered the genocide, really has caused the Palestine 128 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 4: issue to become deeply interwoven with the experience of being 129 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 4: American today. And I don't think that's an overstatement, and 130 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 4: I think concretely it means that you need an answer 131 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 4: to the question, Well, if you can't stand up to genocide, 132 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 4: if you can't stand up for defenseless children in Palestine, 133 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 4: and if you're going to lie to me about it, 134 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 4: why would I expect you to stand up for anything 135 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 4: meaningful as it relates to my standard of living, Say, 136 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 4: I'm a working class person. And so it's become this 137 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 4: litmus test at least on the left, and I think 138 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 4: you're seeing a similar dynamic playout on the right, but 139 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 4: for totally different reasons. Right, And it's been extraordinary to 140 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 4: behold because I think so many of us who've been 141 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 4: in this issue for so long, we've been marking our 142 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 4: progress in incrementalist terms, and then suddenly things have broken 143 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 4: wide open and the world has changed very very quickly. 144 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 145 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: From my vantage point in American academia, I mean, they 146 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: might have had personal feelings about Israel Palestine, they may 147 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 2: have had sympathies, but so few people would ever talk 148 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: about the erasure of Palestine in the academy, or the 149 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: impact of censorship and attacks on academic freedom. But now 150 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: because the Palaestinan issue is being used as this cudgel 151 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: to attack higher education, like you're just a normal Joshmo 152 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: like math professor you're gonna have to care, and you do. 153 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: And we're seeing this very much with the mobilization of 154 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: the American Association of University Professors, that is not a 155 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: Middle East specific organization whatsoever, but they recognize the linkages 156 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: between these issues, so in the ways that Palestine is 157 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: interwoven with but also has impacted so many of our 158 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: current realities and the policies that we're facing by the 159 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: Trump administration and the Bye administration before them. Yeah, I 160 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: think it's very clear to a lot of people. So 161 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 2: that actually brings me to one of the main questions 162 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: that I wanted to ask you, is, aside from kind 163 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 2: of the increased awareness and the taboos that have been 164 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: broken around the discussion of Palestine and its integration in 165 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: American foreign policy and American domestic policy, what are some 166 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: other ways that you think since the genocide began that 167 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: pro Palestine organizing has changed. 168 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,239 Speaker 4: So the biggest thing I've seen is that the analytical 169 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 4: frame has changed. We used to talk about foreign policy 170 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 4: adventurers and wars for oil, those kinds of things. Now 171 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 4: I think the analysis is very correctly focused on empire, 172 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 4: the way in which resources domestically the real working class 173 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 4: effort to build a life in the United States is 174 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 4: subsumed by wars of really imperial overreach. 175 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: The whole idea of. 176 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 4: Empire for me was an antiquated one I didn't think 177 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 4: had a whole lot of relevance today. But I think 178 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 4: I and many others who may have thought in that 179 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 4: way missed the point the realities that empires intact. I 180 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 4: think that awareness that our efforts domestically are deeply, deeply 181 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: intertwined with what's happening what we're doing elsewhere, is important, 182 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 4: and it's emergent, it's new. When I was in graduate school, 183 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 4: you would hear people talk about how they're engaged with 184 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 4: domestic policy, or people talk about their infests in foreign policy, 185 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 4: and I was mostly interested in foreign policy. But today 186 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 4: to try to draw that differentiation is really meaningless. And 187 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 4: again you see that in the race in New York 188 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 4: Mom Donnie did run on affordability. He ran on a 189 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 4: domestic policy program, but equally thirty eight percent I think 190 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 4: of voters were heavily motivated by his foreign policy interests. 191 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 4: In his foreign policy perspectives, which again from a policy 192 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 4: point of view, he can't really impact, but nonetheless are 193 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 4: supported by this idea that our taxes, what we do 194 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 4: domestically is having a huge impact everywhere else in the world, 195 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 4: and that American empires sprawling at a challenge for people 196 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 4: domestically as well. A pure activist point of view, you know, 197 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 4: I used to have a real belief in electoral politics 198 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 4: that was shaken deeply through the DNC, through the grassroots effort. 199 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: To be heard uncommitted. Yeah, the uncommitted movement precisely. We'll 200 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 3: see where things go. 201 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 4: I mean, the truth is that, you know, the person 202 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 4: who is just selected in Jersey is a typical I 203 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 4: believe APAC Democrat, Mike Cheryl. My perspective domestically is that 204 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 4: we need to be aggressive, We need to be forceful 205 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 4: in calling for a total reconstitution of Democratic Party, no 206 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 4: half measures, and I think Zarn mndonie did a good 207 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 4: job of illustrating what that could look like. 208 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's always a tension in this very 209 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: money captured system that we have that at certain level 210 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter liberal or Republican. 211 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 3: They are captured. 212 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: But I think what the New York City race has 213 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: demonstrated is like that can only go so far. You 214 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: still need some public support, which is why of course 215 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: they're going after gerrymandering and all of that. But yeah, 216 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: it's an uphill battle. But I think if this democracy 217 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: is to exist, we are in a better footing than 218 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: we were, you know, on this discussion, I also wondering 219 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: what you think of this characterization, which is that I 220 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 2: think before this genocide, and I don't mean to create 221 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: this binary, but it has been a very transformative event. 222 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: Before this genocide, I think a lot of Palestinian American 223 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 2: organizing in spaces discussed the issue of Palestine in a 224 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 2: right spaceed approach way, so about human rights, about ending auparthide, 225 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: about extending rights, and I think the framing for that 226 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: has also changed. It is really a critique of settler 227 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 2: colonialism and the legitimacy of these nation states. First of all, 228 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: what do you think of that characterization on my end? 229 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: But also what do you think of the tension then 230 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: that poses for the Palestinian national liberation movement that still 231 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 2: wants the state. 232 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right. The thing again, the analytic frame has shifted. 233 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 3: We've gone from a contested conversation around nineteen sixty seven, 234 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 3: the June War, when Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan, 235 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 3: Gosta from Egypt, Jerusalem as well from Jordan, the Goal 236 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: on Heights, some Syria, and a small siliver of land 237 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: from Lebanon to nineteen forty eight. That's what we talk 238 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 3: about now, and that's correct, and. 239 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 4: I think for many Palestinians or Palestinian Americans that has 240 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 4: always been the starting point of the conversation. But now 241 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 4: we have the political legitimacy to say, wait a second, 242 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 4: this whole state was founded upon separate and unequal on 243 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 4: Jewish supremacy, on a point of view that we reject 244 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 4: as Americans and we should reject everywhere in the world. 245 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 4: And so I think that's the first meaningful change that 246 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 4: I've seen when we talk about Palestine. And then of 247 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 4: course settled colonialism is built into that analysis. Things get 248 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 4: a little bit different when you zoom out. Let me 249 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 4: just talk about domestic I think that when you talk 250 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 4: to people on the left, the universalist argument everybody's created 251 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 4: equal is very, very powerful and resonant, and it's the 252 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 4: one that I believe in. But what's happening on the 253 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 4: right as well is an America first argument, and the 254 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 4: word protectorate comes up repeatedly. Why are we investing so 255 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 4: much in a protectorate Tucker Carlston powerfully, I think for 256 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 4: his audience, and this is probably the most influential commentator 257 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: in the United States to day, but powerfully, you know, said, 258 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 4: this country has half the size, half the economy the 259 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 4: state of Connecticut. Why have we invested so much political capital, 260 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 4: so much money and something which is so immaterial, especially 261 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 4: when it pays a big negative dividend in lots of 262 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 4: different ways. So the nativist argument is meeting the universalist argument. 263 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 4: But the core analysis around settled in colonialism, around the 264 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 4: lack of legitimacy for a supremacist state, gives rise to 265 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 4: both of those arguments. 266 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: That access to the. 267 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 4: Substrate, I would say, Palestinians who want to see a 268 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 4: Palestinian state, and how you're going back to Palestine. I 269 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 4: don't know what that means today. I've heard perspectives that 270 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: availing ourselves of statehood as a legal construct will mean 271 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 4: that you can now access legal frameworks to pursue justice 272 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 4: in the courts wherever they may exist. 273 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: I hope that's true. Let's see what works out. 274 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 4: I think there are people who are trying to take 275 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 4: Israeli men dual nationals who participated in the genocide to 276 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 4: court in France, I think by using some of the 277 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 4: some of the laws that exist between recognized states and 278 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 4: non states, or maybe the UK. 279 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 3: Let's see if robber meets road there. 280 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 4: I support those tactics, but practically, when you're talking about 281 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 4: Palestinian liberation, I don't believe that a state which has 282 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: been colonized out of existence. And you kind of have 283 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 4: to look at a map to see what I mean here, 284 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 4: but the West Bank is thoroughly colonized. Gaza is still 285 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 4: occupied by these Raelies and will likely be slowly ethnically 286 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 4: cleansed over time and not rebuilt. I fail to see 287 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 4: how a state illegal construct is going to yield real 288 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 4: benefits with the people on the ground now in Palestine. 289 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: I agree, and I think that the continuation of this framework, 290 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: the statehood framework that a lot of our kind of 291 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: political elites in the Palestinian landscape continue to use, and 292 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: a lot of these countries in the global North use, 293 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: also to bypass with work that actually needs to be 294 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: done after a genocide. It's certainly a distraction in my view, 295 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: but it also speaks to the renewal that needs to 296 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: happen within Palestinian politics and within the PLO, But that's 297 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: a bigger matter. My next question was going to be 298 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: on the Palestine American diaspora. In what ways do you 299 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 2: think the passing American diaspora is alike with people in 300 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 2: historic Palestine, with other diasporas, and in what ways do 301 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: you think that they're unique. 302 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: That's a hard question for me to answer. 303 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 4: I think the diaspora, in the way that I've interacted 304 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 4: with people, is diverse. What people have in common is 305 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 4: a common reference point, the Neca. They have a common 306 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 4: understanding around the illegitimacy of Israel as an ethno state 307 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 4: which takes Jewish supremacy as its point of departure. But 308 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: it's a very diverse diaspora. I mean, our first Palisian 309 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 4: American in Congress is Justin Amash, who is on the right. 310 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: That's right. I always forget about him. 311 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he had relatives who were murdered in 312 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 4: Visa at a church in northern Vesa, which dates back 313 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 4: to I think the eleventh century. So we're diverse diaspora. 314 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 4: I think the Palisinian diaspora in the United States is integrated, 315 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 4: it's educated, that's the past for lots of Palestinians around 316 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 4: the world. It's how you get out, it's how you 317 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 4: build alive. We have a very high literacy rate in Palestine, 318 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 4: exceeds ninety nine point five percent. But I think where 319 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 4: the diaspora hasn't, at least in the United States, done 320 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 4: as effective a job. And this is kind of the 321 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 4: natural trajectory I think of diaspora communities generally. I don't 322 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 4: know that we're as aggressive and organized as we could be. 323 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 4: And I want to emphasize the word aggressive, the idea 324 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 4: that we can go out and compete at all levels 325 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 4: of government, that we can go out and assert our 326 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 4: understanding of history backed by facts. We should be doing 327 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 4: more of that, especially when you look kind of across 328 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 4: the board when it comes to people who are doing 329 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 4: well in medicine or in business, you know where there's 330 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 4: been a real career risk for speaking out and for 331 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 4: being assertive. We can do more now, and we should 332 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 4: use the leverage gain through two years of genocide, the 333 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 4: most expensive of access to leverage I can imagine, to 334 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 4: push much harder politically. 335 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very good point. I'm also wondering how 336 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: well you think the Palestinian organizing groups and spaces. How 337 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: well integrated are they into other activist issue areas. 338 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is where when I was in college, 339 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 4: I didn't know the word intersectionality. That wasn't a concept 340 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 4: that really was one that people thought about. You know, 341 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 4: you would host an event and you would invite your friends, 342 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 4: some of whom would be in the Black students group, 343 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 4: some of whom would be in the Queer students group, 344 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 4: and just regular left groups. But today I'd say that 345 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 4: activists have a much more complete sense of how you 346 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 4: almost have a social quilt, and a compression on one 347 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 4: part of it will impact everything else that's related to it, 348 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 4: and we're all interrelated in that way. I'd say that 349 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 4: the most potent discussions around palestign are coming from left 350 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 4: organizing groups, not exactly Palestinian organizing groups. I think if 351 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 4: I could offer gentle criticism of Palistine organizers, there's been 352 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 4: too much and you serviously with uncommitted, too much effort 353 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 4: to ingratiate yourselves to the existing power apparatus to ask 354 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 4: for a seat at the table. When it's somebody like 355 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 4: Zoron Mumdani again who demanded a seat at the table 356 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 4: through an unrelenting focus on the issues achieved access to 357 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 4: a platform, then nobody wanted to seed. And I don't 358 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 4: think that following the rules exactly or being friendly about 359 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 4: accessing platforms within the Democratic parties one yield a huge 360 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 4: benefit to Palestinian Americans or people here. I'd say the 361 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 4: most principled organizing is that organizing that's going to win 362 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 4: and today that comes from non Palestinian groups, and I'm 363 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 4: okay with that. I don't really think it matters if 364 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 4: the best argument is coming from somebody whose family comes 365 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 4: from South Asia through Uganda, or somebody whose family emerges 366 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 4: from you know, the Ballota refugee camp, that doesn't really 367 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 4: matter to me. I think just to focus on the 368 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 4: principles is the most important thing. 369 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, right right. 370 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: I think we're definitely seeing more of an acceptance of that. 371 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: I agree with the limitations that you referenced. I also 372 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: sometimes do reflect on how matched the discussion is in 373 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: the United States with the discussion in historic Palestine and 374 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: what activists can do to kind of bridge some gaps 375 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: that might emerge. But of course, understanding that we do 376 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 2: exist in a different political reality and we obviously will 377 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 2: develop different views as a result of that. 378 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 4: I agree, And look, I mean, nobody needs to be 379 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 4: apologetic about inhabiting a different reality. You know, we don't 380 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 4: need to defer to a leadership which is divided and 381 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 4: divided in Palestine and PLO that won't talk to itself. 382 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 3: And there are structural reasons for that, right. 383 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 4: I mean, the Israelis and the Americans have done a 384 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 4: very effective job in splintering Palaestinine leadership. 385 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 3: I think we need to think extremely locally. 386 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 4: There are issues that matter to my community in West Philadelphia, big, 387 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 4: bigger issues across Pennsylvania that impact my life, that impact 388 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 4: my life as a father of three little girls. So 389 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 4: I think being a member of a community and focusing 390 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 4: again relentlessly on the principles and the facts that we've 391 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 4: known all along is critical to pushing the conversation on 392 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 4: Palsign forward and practically today, for me, that means an 393 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 4: arms embargo, it means sanctions, it means a cultural boycott, 394 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 4: and it means those things unapologetically. Again, those are principal 395 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 4: positions that I can take as an American citizen, a 396 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 4: citizen in a country which has underwritten genocide, has underwritten 397 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 4: apartheid for decades. 398 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 3: Yep. 399 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: I think I agree with that analysis. As the author, 400 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: which we didn't mention at the beginning, as the author 401 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: one of the co authors of After Zionism with Anthony Lonstein, 402 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: I'm going to pose a difficult question for you now, 403 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: I'm just joking, not that you have to answer it fully, 404 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: but where do you think we go from here? Where 405 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: do you think the pro palsign movement goes from here? 406 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: And if you can reflect in your answer on where 407 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 2: we've stalled as well. 408 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I used to believe in one state for 409 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 4: everybody with equal rights. Today I think the writing is 410 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 4: on the wall for the Palestinians in Palestine. The ethnic 411 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 4: cleansing of Palestine is proceeding the fact that has been 412 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 4: utterly destroyed, utterly destroyed. There are no universities, no schools, 413 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 4: no really functioning hospitals. The basic infrastructure required for the 414 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 4: maintenance of life doesn't exist there anymore. That's part of 415 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 4: why it's a genocide. We've got to take that reality 416 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 4: into account. The Palestinians and Liza, the Palestinians and Palestine 417 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 4: generally have the right to pursue life. They have a 418 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 4: right to an education, they have a right to self actualization, 419 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 4: and many of them, when they can, they're going to leave. 420 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 4: That's the ethnic cleansing program, that's the idea behind the 421 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 4: mass destruction of Palestine. The Israelis have succeeded in that regard. 422 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 4: I would say, we need to be mindful of that. 423 00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 3: We need to be aware of that. 424 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 4: What I think will happen ultimately is that you'll end 425 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 4: up with some rump community of Palestinians in Palestine who 426 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 4: are eventually when in arms embargoes enacted. And I hope 427 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 4: it's within our lifetimes when the sanctions are enacted, when 428 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 4: Israel is forced to become a normal country with equal 429 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 4: rights for all, will continue to exist in that space. 430 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, I can't predict, nobody can 431 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 4: really predict what's certainty, what's going to happen. But the 432 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 4: kinds of pressure required to cause Israel to become a 433 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 4: de radicalized, normal society will take time to produce. And 434 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 4: in the interim, the writing is on the wall for 435 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 4: the Palatinians in Palestine, and I think that's the saddust 436 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 4: for me. Part of all this, the continuity of Palacinian 437 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 4: life and Palestine is not guaranteed. You know, the overwhelming 438 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 4: force of the state exists in one place, and that's 439 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 4: in Israel. 440 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I when a lot of people talk 441 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 2: positively about the developments of the past two years. Of course, 442 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 2: you want to feel hope. You want to highlight how 443 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 2: the discussion has changed here in America, how politics is 444 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: moving forward. You want to have some pathway. But we 445 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 2: never were able to prevent that genocide. Nothing we did 446 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 2: in any avenue. All of us have, you know, different 447 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: positionalities engaged with different actors, like, none of it actually 448 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: stopped that, and that is a very hard pill to swallow. 449 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 3: I hope. 450 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: I've always been hoping that at least that will allow 451 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 2: us to get to the place of self reflection about 452 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: what radical solutions look like in the aftermath of this 453 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 2: kind of disaster. And yeah, I hope that's that's where 454 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 2: we go from here on my end. Yeah, thank you 455 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 2: so much, Ahmad. This has been a really enriching discussion, 456 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: and I think that the listeners will benefit from this 457 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 2: overarching view of propalacine activism and it's uh, it's intersections 458 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: with everything we're seeing unfold. So thank you so much again. 459 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 3: Thank you Donna, It's been a huge pleasure. 460 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 461 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 462 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 463 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 464 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen Here, listed directly 465 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.