WEBVTT - Meena Harris 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.600 This is from Stacy Abram's book Lead from the Outside, 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:09.920 call its Success, Leadership, Confidence, or any of a dozen descriptions. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.040 What we're in pursuit of is power, the power to 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.439 control our lives, to change our fates, and to win 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:27.760 what some have been raised to take for granted. Welcome 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:30.720 to the podcast That's all about the Voice, which means 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.360 it's all about power, Who has it, how we get it, 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.440 how we sound when we have it. I'm your host, 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.280 samaraw Ba, and this is permission to speak, where we 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:42.600 can throw all our best ideas about how to get 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:56.480 ourselves heard into the pot and start. Today's guest is 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.720 Mina Harris. She is the founder and CEO of the 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.200 Fun Nominal Woman Action campaign that's like a little more 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:05.679 than a dieser company. It's basically a movement at this 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.679 point that connects so many of us, as well as 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.800 one that shines a light on and raises funds for 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.320 all kinds of important social causes, from Families Belong Together 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.920 which helped with the crisis of the border, to hire heights, 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.000 and organization that supports women of color and leadership. I 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.040 wanted to have Mina on because she has worked in 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.720 so many rooms that are hard to get into. She 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.800 graduated from Harvard Law School. She's worked in tech, in corporate, 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:36.559 in the social justice space. She did youth vote organizing 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.480 for Barack Obama's campaign and OH eight, and she's also 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.600 worked on her aunt, Kamala's campaigns for Attorney General of California, 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:49.240 as well as her senate and residential runs. We talked 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:54.480 about how to handle intimidating spaces, how to not suck 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.600 at meetings, how to speak up and how to not, 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.559 and what it takes to center our stories for ourselves 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:14.280 and for our kids. This is mina mina Hi being here, 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:17.400 think here doesn't even mean anything anymore. Thank you for 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.080 joining us remotely. It's great to hear your voice, still 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:25.919 feeling that connection, but yeah, it's kind of a weird time. Um. 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.640 I'm really struck by how many different industries you've worked 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.359 in or are working in, from corporate to law to 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:35.000 politics to tech, and how they sort of all run 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.520 on meetings. So I'd love to dive in here first 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.040 in terms of, you know, our listeners and all of 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.440 us thinking about how we're using our voice literally and metaphorically, 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:51.680 like what what actually happens? What have you found is 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.720 first of all, what's like, what's like meeting mina? Like? 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.920 What what's your style? You know what I mean? What 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.120 you hate? What do you like? What you know? It's 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.119 a strong word, but like what really doesn't work? Oh 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.400 my god, well I will use the word hate. I 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.720 I mean, it's like a full on meme now, but 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.080 you know, meetings that should have been emails like I 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.200 So to answer your question meeting mina, it's funny, you know, 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.360 I think actually my meeting style is different in different contexts. 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.320 I would say that, And I think this goes to 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.160 probably what a lot of what we'll talk about right 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.239 in terms of how you use your voice in different settings. 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.720 But I would say sort of in the corporate professional space, 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:33.680 it's very direct. It's like about business. It's about like efficiency, 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.480 like let's get this done right, to the point of 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.360 um not having uh, you know, unnecessary meetings that could 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.200 have been handled via email. UM, so much more sort 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.120 of you know, I guess about business, maybe even a 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.360 little bit more formal in that way. And I think 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.560 probably that comes more from my corporate law background than 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:54.600 it does tech, because tech is I think much more 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.560 UM can be much more sort of casual, and then 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:01.200 on the flip side, I think with phenomenal Um, I 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:03.560 don't know, it's interesting. I guess I do think that 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.080 I'm a little bit less formal. I think in part 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.600 because the nature of the work is just so different, right, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.480 I mean, there's a lot of external partners, a lot 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.160 of it is creative, so a lot of it is 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.239 like brainstorming and um kind of working through different issues 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:21.279 and how we're going to talk about them, learning about them. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.120 So I think that that one is a little bit 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.560 more kind of like me, and maybe there's a little 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.719 bit more you know, humor, and it's a little feels 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.200 more maybe like closely connected in terms of the teams 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.880 that I work with. So yeah, there's definitely a difference. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.800 But I would say that the professional sort of meeting 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:41.760 MINA corporate MINA is definitely kind of more about business. 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.560 Do you feel like that also is related to the 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.200 actual makeup of who's in those meetings in terms of 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.360 gender and age or is it not that and it's 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.600 much more about the actual like industry. I think it's 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:59.360 more about the standards that I hold for myself. I mean, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.880 I guess if I'm to think about that, I probably 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:06.640 carried over, Yes, some of that from the corporate law context, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.560 where it's much more you know, formal and buttoned up 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.480 and um, you know, you're presenting to a client or 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.120 you know, presenting to a partner, to a boss, and 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.039 it's sort of much more um maybe pressure to feel 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:23.560 like you need to you know, perform and impress. I'm 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.760 not at all things that's a good thing. I also 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:27.440 feel like it's not a bad thing. Like I think 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.040 it's too easy for us to be like we should 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.000 always just be casual. But really there's a reason that 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:37.880 we read a room and you know, react accordingly exactly, 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:39.719 and it's been one of the biggest I would say, 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.239 you know, things that I've learned and adjusted to going 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.640 from you know, big law into tech, which is tech 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:51.120 is much more informal in many different ways. And part 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:52.840 of it is, as you said, reading the room, it's 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:57.720 adapting to different cultures, right, and and work styles. And 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.920 when you think about leadership, know within a company and outside, 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:03.760 it's sort of like you have to think about do 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:05.480 you want to be that type of leader that adapts 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.960 to different cultures from work styles or are you the 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:09.599 type of leader that's like I don't care. I'm gonna 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:11.680 do what I want to do. And you can guess, 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:13.560 you know, I I have opinions on sort of who's 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.680 more effective, but I think that's what it comes down to, right, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.800 Are you being effective? Are you communicating in a way 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.760 where you are developing you know, influence and followership and 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:24.760 buy in? Right? I think that's that's what it comes 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.919 down to. And and people feeling invested and passionate and 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:30.880 what you're doing. And I think that's key, right anything 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.599 being successful. And I absolutely see that with you know, 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.799 phenomenal woman, where you know, I think you cannot miss 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.000 my passion and enthusiasm for that, and um it's about, 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.760 you know, how do you get others to feel that 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.280 right and to feel moved by that, um so that 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.760 they're just as invested. And I will say that there 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.440 have been moments where I have found I felt frustrated 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.080 right where there are work styles that I preferred from 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.680 corporate law and ways of sort of doing business and 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.120 doing work that are simply just not the norm. And 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:02.919 I've had to figure out, you know, how do I 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:04.479 adapt to them in a way where I can still 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:09.440 be successful in terms of like having to okay, so 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:11.600 we need to soften here, and we need to actually 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.600 like have a chat about however body is before we 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.280 can get into business. When really I'd like to get 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.720 into business. That's totally one of them. Totally one of them. 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:23.520 As a as a type A, I hear that and 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.160 I'm like, I see you, which is not to say 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:31.560 I mean, obviously I'm also like a wildly friendly human 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.080 who wants to know about people. But you know that's 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.120 when it's like, let's do that over drinks exactly. And 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.280 I think part of it is just you know, generational 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.720 frankly too. I mean that's also culture, of course, but 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.760 I definitely, you know, kind of grew up and was 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.760 schooled in, you know, the thought that like you're not 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:52.600 you're not going to work to make friends, You're going 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.560 to work to do work, right, And it's just, you know, 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.880 the culture is different in different places. And I think 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.160 as well, like I said, in the corporate law on sex, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:05.840 there's a very clear kind of separation between those two spaces, um, 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.800 you know, happy hour versus like when you're at work 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:10.960 and in meetings. And I think part of it, I mean, 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.480 just to be very um you know, to like really 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.320 break it down. Part of it is that you're literally 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.120 on a billable hour, right, like minutes are dollars right 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.680 when you're in a corporate law context, so you really 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.600 don't want to be wasting, you know, time when you're 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.000 on the clock doing things that are are not contributing 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:28.840 to the work. So but you know, again, I think 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.160 it's something that I've definitely learned and I think has 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.600 made me probably I hope, more of an effective leader, 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.880 where it does go a long way to just stop 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:38.640 and say, hey, how are how are you right? Like 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.480 how is your weekend? Or how are your kids? Um? Again, 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.360 to your point, like, I'm such a I'm a very warm, 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.520 you know person, I'm very interested in other people and 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.680 and want to know how their kids and lives are. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.000 But I've traditionally sort of reserved that for a certain 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.160 time and space. And I think that the lines are 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.520 a little bit more you know, blurred in tech for example. Well, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.000 and I would also argue that there's like a little 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.200 bit of a false dichotomy that we might be sort 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.040 of accidentally falling into, because I also think there's something 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.200 about I don't know, when you're entirely in a corporate 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.640 or legal context, and you're really just like solving a 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.120 problem and moving on. But if you're actually working with 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.680 people that you work with like on a regular basis 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.079 and you have a shared history, there can be something 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.480 that feels very friend like in actually doing the work 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.560 together and caring together about a thing about you know, 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.000 solving this thing that's in front of us. So it's 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:29.920 not just like we're cold when we do the work 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.040 and we're warm when we talk about our lives. You know, 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.960 there's like this really gorgeous, nebulous space that we often 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.040 are in with our with our real collaborators where we're 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.280 not talking about our our lives outside of the room, 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.040 and yet we're bringing ourselves. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:45.559 And I think again it depends on the context and 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.720 the nature of the work. I find that that comes 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.600 out a lot more in the work that we do 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.440 with um Phenomenal, because it's about you know, a lot 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.480 of the stuff that we're doing is talking about issues 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.280 that impact human lives in you know, serious ways, and 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.240 there's more emotion, there's more you know, sort of getting 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.320 in touch with the the issues and empathy and on 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.839 all that stuff. And I think to your point, there 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.199 are ways in which you know, we it's important to 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.920 bring those perspectives into the room, even when more formal 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.560 corporate context. Right, if you're talking about really sort of 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.640 being creative and doing interesting work and allowing the team 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:20.679 sort of the space to connect in a way that's 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.000 gonna lead to better work, I think, you know, it's 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.160 just funny. I've seen it. I've also seen it go 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.320 kind of like off a deep end where um, it's 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.520 like you it's it's a little bit too much, right, 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:32.720 And so I think part of it too is you 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.559 have to establish the boundaries. You have to establish sort 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.000 of the standards and the culture so that it doesn't 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.760 sort of get away from you, Right. I mean that's 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:45.680 part of leadership for sure. Exactly exactly, not necessarily saying 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.600 out loud. You know, we can talk about our home 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.479 lives for five minutes and then let's switch. That sounds 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.559 like a little too much, but you know something, by modeling, 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.439 you know exactly exactly. Okay, So to back up real fast, 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:04.200 you worked at Facebook, at Slack, at an international law 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.319 firm like you're talking about. You worked on the campaign 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.080 for Barrock as well as for Kamala. I want to 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:16.760 know about like what makes you intimidated? Wow, what makes 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.800 me intimidated? You've been in so many rooms, right, I 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.199 mean we're talking a little bit about reading those rooms 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.320 and no one when to speak up. I've come to 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:31.120 just in my own sort of like self awareness and journey. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.200 I think that the moments when I've been most intimidated 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:39.520 are when I feel like I don't know enough or 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:43.760 no everything right. And I experienced it, I think, really 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.480 um intensely for the first time in law school, where 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.000 you know, it's new material. It's just it's a totally 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.160 new world. And I wasn't one of those people who 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.920 came in sort of theyre had a lot of classmates 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.040 that you know, had like done pre law and we're 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.080 like really kind of acted demic, you know, in like 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.679 legal um space before coming to law school, and I 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.640 think we're kind of much more immersed in it. But 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:07.720 I felt like there were the moments, you know, in 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.400 class where and you can't know everything. I think that's 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.920 part of like the understanding of the journey. But I 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:14.960 think those are the moments where I felt intimidated, where 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.560 it's like I didn't know everything perfectly, I didn't have 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.160 sort of full expert, you know, knowledge of a certain issue, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:26.240 and therefore felt intimidated about you know, speaking to those things, 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.960 whether it was like a case in class or you know, 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.640 in political context and uh, you know, some sort of 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.920 policy issue. And then maybe perhaps the intimidation also came 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.800 from being surrounded by people who I did perceive as 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.319 sort of you know, knowing that stuff and being really 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:46.280 you know, accomplished or or knowledgeable. Right at my law 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:47.800 firm as an example, I mean, it was one of 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.000 the most formative professional experiences for me, in part because 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.760 I was just surrounded by some of the most brilliant 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.680 people I've ever met in my life. Right, Um, so, 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.120 I think there's obviously an intersection there of of of 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.760 confidence to right. And I think part of that in 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:04.839 my own journey is is knowing what you don't know 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.359 and being okay with that and being able to say, 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.400 you know, depending on the context. You know, I need 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.320 to look into this more. But here's what I do know, 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:13.720 and here's how I would just want to a based 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.839 on what I do know, rather than maybe in those 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.080 instances choosing not to speak at all, right, just acknowledging 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.880 the limitations and still you know, offering contributions based on 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.240 what you do know, um, and I think that's obviously 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.400 better than and then not you know, and then staying silent, 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.959 which I've definitely done before. I did it a lot 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.719 in law school. I sort of just chose, um not 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.120 to to speak up as much as I probably would have, 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.520 because I didn't want to make mistakes. I didn't want 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:45.000 to seem, you know, not as knowledgeable. Yeah, oh my god, 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.160 there's so much there. There's so much. There's a lot 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.600 like like I mean, first of all, just just it's 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.920 okay to not speak up sometimes, you know, like absolutely 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.599 for so many of us, especially when we're feeling like 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.720 we have to prove ourselves, which is all of us 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.760 all the time. Not really, but like you know, they're 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.680 they're that's that's like such a universal experience for people. Um, 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.040 this sort of like take me seriously, and to know 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.240 that there is a strength in in you know, quietly 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.240 observing and sort of collecting your thoughts which we sometimes forget, 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.240 and also knowing what you're talking about when you talk, right, 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:21.040 Like there's definitely something to that as well, right, But 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.800 also like it's so hard to because like there's so 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.040 much leniency with white men when it comes to that, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.040 like they can think they're thoughts out loud as they 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.800 have them, and they may not even end in a 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:37.440 particularly useful place. Absolutely, yeah, but they're having them out, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.880 you know, and I don't I is that something we 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:41.800 should be aiming for. I don't know. I like the 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.120 freedom of it, right, No, I think I mean it's 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.760 a balance, right, I think. Yeah. Historically, you know, white 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.160 men have been accustomed to to to speaking when they 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.800 want to speak um, regardless of how knowledgeable they may be, 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.040 and I think we all can learn from that, perhaps, 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.000 But I also think it's important to acknowledge that historically 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.280 they've been rewarded for it, right, and that is not 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.480 the case for women, or in particular for women of color. 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.720 Um that they are sort of given that presumptive you know, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:16.000 um credibility or power or you know, assumption that they 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.520 know what the hell they're talking about. If they don't write, 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.760 if they end up saying something that doesn't make any sense, 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.840 people will think I probably didn't get it right. I 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.320 think was it Michelle Obama? There's a quote or I 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.640 think maybe it's from her book Tour, but I think 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.360 there's a similar question and she said something to the 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.120 effect of it was basically like, once you finally get 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:41.640 in those rooms, you realize that, like they're not that smart. Yeah, 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:43.920 I'm just as smart as you are. And I think 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.920 that was definitely my journey with law school. I would 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.720 say it kind of I really kind of gained that, 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.600 you know, real confidence, and you know, the intimidation was 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.640 happening less and less when I was at my law 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.560 firm practicing because I was like, you know what, I do, 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.880 know what the hell I'm talking about, And I'm advising 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.960 you know, major clients and they're taking my advice and 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.520 it's going well, and like, you know, it's like what 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.359 else is there? Right like and obviously there's some validation 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.440 there and there's um, you know again back to the 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.080 leadership conversation. Part of that was like having a really 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.560 great boss who gave me that autonomy and gave me 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.480 that confidence and you know, so there's so many pieces 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.880 to this, but I do think that part of it 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.200 is like, you know, recognizing what you don't know, being 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.280 confident in the things that you do, and being willing, 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.160 uh you know, to speak up when they're sort of 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.080 that in between space of not entirely knowing, but like 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.040 still having you know, something to share. But then also 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.680 to your point of not you know, taking up space 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.040 when you don't need to, and when somebody else who 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.240 may be more more knowledgeable, should be the one speaking, 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.880 especially if it's not a white man, right, because we 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.360 know that most often those voices are diminished. Um, there's 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.400 this whole concept of the shine theory. Yes, I was 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.440 just talking about that. Yep. I was just thinking because right, 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.000 because part of the solution obviously is having leaders in 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.720 any context that are you know, just historically outside of power. 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:10.639 I mean, that's the point of this podcast, Like how 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.120 do we how do we just call ourselves the next 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.960 generation of leaders? And that's that, um. But also, yeah, 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.320 part of it is about our allies along the way 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.919 can help those those moments, help help us feel like 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.160 we can speak up in those moments and that will 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.600 be supported. It's not just like us versus the world exactly, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.879 and that there are ways that each of us can 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.480 quote unquote speak up that is not for ourselves, that 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.000 could be right in the service of others or in 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.359 this you know, shine theory, which is developed by um 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.240 I mean not too so. She's the host of the 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.479 Call Your Girlfriend podcast, And the whole concept is that 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.439 when you shine, I shine, and therefore, if I'm helping 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.720 you to shine, I'm helping me to shine, I'm helping 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.480 all of us right to shine. There's this amazing story, Um, 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.600 I think it was Obama White House female staffers that 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.080 opted this technique where if one woman, you know, said 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.280 something in a meeting that was predominantly men, the other 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.240 woman would would repeat what she said and said, oh, 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.000 you know, I really agree with what so and so said. Um, 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.720 I think it's a really good point, and continuously like 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.719 give each other credit, right because they knew that as 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:19.680 they were building each other up, that was emphasizing it 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.360 to everybody else who was listening, which you know obviously 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.160 means that for one like, men could not take credit 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.200 for the ideas. There's this um it's like a meme, 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.320 right like you, uh, you say something and it goes 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.359 a woman says something and it goes like ignored, and 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.919 then the man like five minutes later repeats in it. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.080 And that's a great idea. Nobody's ever said. That's like, 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.160 we know, I just said that, Can I get some backup? Right? 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.560 And then and then then your allies are like, yes, 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.760 preparing for this moment, and actually what you're saying is 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.600 also so valuable. Whenever whenever I think of shine theory, 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:53.359 I think about it from the point of view of 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.800 the person who's who's you know, sort of sharing the 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.520 scary idea into the meeting. But when you also help 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.920 me remember is that it's also from the point of 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.359 view of those allies, and that is a way to 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.760 build up our our like you know, meeting confidence is 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.840 to say that to just practice saying what Mina just 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:12.480 said was so great. I just want to make sure 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.760 everybody heard that, you know, I mean, can we just 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.760 how how amazing does that make you feel when you're 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.440 in a meeting, especially if you may already be feeling intimidated, 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.480 when somebody you know validates you and someone says, you know, 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.680 that's a really good point. I love that idea. Oh 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.520 my god. I mean, we should all do that with 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.960 each other anyway. I mean, we absolutely should, and that's 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.360 the whole concept. And I think if you just right 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.520 now put yourself in a meeting when somebody says that 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:39.560 to you, it's like, Wow, that felt so good, thank you, 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.800 And I just had this you know, burst of confidence 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.399 to um, you know, continue with my idea, to continue 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.200 sharing that and I think just putting yourself in the 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.399 shoes of that person and knowing how good that feels like. 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:53.800 That's just so easy, um. And part of it is 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:57.200 you know again, it's it's um a listening technique, right, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.640 Like back to the leadership being effective, you know, right, 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.239 this is something that we can all be doing, not 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.879 only to lift up others, but to just like do 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:10.040 better work. M Yeah. Absolutely, And also what a lovely 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:12.040 gift to just be able to be the person who 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:13.919 says I just want to shine a light on what 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.000 that person said. As a unit of communication. We're often 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.359 thinking about units of communication in terms of like I 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:20.800 have to give this speech or I have to do 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.280 this difficult conversation. But to think of it as the 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:25.440 like gifts that we can give that we where we 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.159 don't really have any agenda of our own except for 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.919 like for the sisterhood as a whole. Exactly. It's a 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:35.040 really nice reminder and it's also so easy. It's like 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.879 the easiest thing you can possibly right. Well, so this 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.560 is like a natural segue because Phenomenal Woman feels a 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:42.680 little bit like the T shirt version of shine theory. 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.120 Now that I think about it, you know what I mean. 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.280 I heard you say somewhere that what's great about these shirts? 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:52.239 And for anybody listening who doesn't know, which is like 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.240 six people in the whole world. Um, you know, you 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.840 you should probably tell the story about me. But this, 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.960 I know, this came out of the election. Um, and 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:02.960 you thought it would only last for like a month 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.280 or something, right, Yeah, no, that I mean, you got 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.920 it right. I wanted to just jump immediately to as 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:10.639 you said, it's like almost shine theory and the T 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.320 shirt version. I love that. Which is one of the 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:18.200 most just extraordinary amazing things about it was when we 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.479 first launched the campaign, which is on International Women's Day, 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:22.840 and as you said, it was to raise money for 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:27.480 women's organizations, and all of these women were posting pictures 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:29.280 in their T shirts, right, and imagine this was like 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:31.480 the first time ever that people were like wearing the 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:35.399 shirt and putting it out on social and the reactions 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:37.879 were just, oh my god, it was amazing, just like 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:40.679 the self love right to put it out there, and 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.080 then all of the comments of people like, oh my god, 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:47.520 you are phenomenal, Like I'm phenomenal, We're phenomenal. It just 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.840 became this like huge love fest of like you know, 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.600 self affirmation unit, the affirmation all these people lifting each 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.639 other up, and I think it was just it was extraordinary, 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.400 you know, as you said, it's like somebody to put 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.440 that out there is sending a message like I'm I'm 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.800 willing to, you know, lift myself up and have the 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:05.320 confidence to put this out in the world. And it 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.840 was clearly inspiring that in other people, not only to 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.679 build up that person and say like, fun, yeah, you 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:13.640 are phenomenal, but also like wait a second, I want 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.239 to wear that shirt because I'm phenomenal too. And you know, 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:19.240 like people would send me photos where they, you know, 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.800 were like at their local coffee shop and they ran 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.160 into a woman who they didn't know who's like wearing 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:25.879 the T shirt and then you know, they take a 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:27.159 photo and send it to me and would think that 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.840 they were best friends. But it becomes this little you know, 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:33.280 like club of just like self love and treaty love, 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:34.919 where you know, you see people and you're like, oh 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:37.720 my god, right, we're all phenomenal. While part of the 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:42.320 same God that's so gorgeous, were part of the same tribe. Yeah, exactly, 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.320 it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. You said once that it 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:47.680 makes it easy for women to make a powerful statement. 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:50.120 And I think that we know about the powerful statement 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:52.680 we know about women, but the making it easy part 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:58.800 cannot cannot be overstated. Right. We just need these like gentle, 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:00.920 gentle ways that we can work on speaking up for 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:03.879 ourselves totally. And it's you know, it's about meeting people 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:05.560 where they are, and that it doesn't have to be 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.040 this big leap of you know, whatever is that thing 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:12.960 that intimidates you, Right, it can be something so small 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:17.000 and uh nevertheless meaningful. And some of the most inspiring 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.080 moments for me have been, um, women talking about it 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:24.240 like it's armor, right, that they derive power and strength 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:27.760 from it, ranging from wearing it to meetings. Right that 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:30.480 we're like a big important meeting where they were you know, 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:33.760 giving a presentation or otherwise UM felt sort of you know, 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.720 intimidated and wanted to go in with confidence. I've had 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.600 other women you know, send me photos when they wore it, um, 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:43.760 while they were giving birth, when they were going into labor, right, Um, 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.080 and like this idea that it's almost this you know, 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.520 like you derive superpowers from it. It's like this cape 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.240 or this you know armor. I just love that. And 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:54.760 I think part of it too, you know, around this 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.520 conversation around sort of your individual voice and speaking up 0:23:57.520 --> 0:23:59.639 and what that means for each person is that is 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.800 much that is universal, right, and that women are phenomenal, 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:05.800 and um, we we deserve everything in the world and 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.720 to speak up and and to be heard. But it 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:12.320 also has such unique meeting for individual people on any 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.680 given day. Right. So one day it made me have 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:17.719 the phenomenal mother shirt and you feel like you've been 0:24:17.720 --> 0:24:19.200 a shitty mom all week and you just need to 0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:23.600 put that on to remind yourself, Right, I have that one. 0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:28.800 So I don't know what you're talking, but you know, 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:30.879 there's others that I had a deadline to meet and 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.320 I had to just like jam and you know, get 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:35.200 this done and did an all nighter and I wore 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:37.119 my fucking shirt and I did it right, and I 0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.199 feel so good and I just had to put it 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:41.320 on because I have to accomplish this a big thing. 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.919 So yeah, it's just it's so small, um, and but 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:48.280 it's it's it's really beautiful and meaningful. What's beautiful What 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:51.480 I'm hearing you say is that it's outward and inward. Yes. Yes, 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:53.840 I came across when I was when I was thinking 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:57.040 about talking with you, I was rereading Presence, the Amy 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:00.159 Cutty book, and she said this line that and you 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:04.200 think of this, She said, sometimes there's a during life, 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.120 you know, sometimes there's a process that involves fitting our 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:10.320 true self to the situation or role that we're in 0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:14.800 by choosing which core values and traits to render visible. 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:18.240 I love that, right, It's such an the whole idea, 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:20.399 I mean what partly what she's saying is that we 0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:22.720 do have to sort of like you know, fit ourselves 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:26.200 into these weird situations and not bring parts of ourselves 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:30.280 into the room that would be you know, whatever taken wrong. 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:33.919 And that's a whole thing and there's so much intersectionality 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:36.680 to be discussed there. But also when we're talking about 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:38.520 what our core values are with the things we don't 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:40.800 want to leave behind our when we go into those rights, 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:44.119 the idea of how we render that visible, you know, 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:46.520 literally visible by wearing it on a shirt is also 0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:48.840 just a reminder of like, yeah, and I can bring 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:50.480 some of that with me. I can bring the fact 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.400 that I'm a mother into this, you know, professional context, 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.359 and not apologize for normalize it. In fact, you know, 0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:59.360 I can bring you know, some aspect of my culture 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:02.080 that is not what the dominant culture is, and rather 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:04.639 than apologizing it for it, knowing that it's you know whatever, 0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:06.359 it's a strength. It's one of the reasons I was 0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:09.520 asked into this room. Exactly. Yeah. I think it makes 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:13.800 me think almost of like there's a difference between assimilating 0:26:13.960 --> 0:26:17.440 and adapting, and I think that to me, I feel 0:26:17.480 --> 0:26:19.960 like adapting when we talk about adopting to a culture 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:25.040 or I just feels like there's more intentionality and choice 0:26:25.359 --> 0:26:29.080 to decide which pieces you want to make more visible 0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:33.199 while you know, being effective, right, Whereas I feel like 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:35.320 that's beautiful and it also ties in with what you're 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:40.200 talking about earlier about leadership in in a really specific way. Exactly. Okay, 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:41.879 we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:55.919 back after this. Okay, so we're back below. Um, I 0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:59.479 want to talk a little bit about this totally one 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:02.080 of the kind of experience that you had growing up 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:04.480 with the grandma you had and the mom had and 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:07.520 the aunt you have. I mean, I guess I'm wondering 0:27:07.560 --> 0:27:13.639 like what you observed in how they communicated in different contexts. 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:15.080 I mean, it's some of the stuff that we've been 0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:18.320 talking about, but when you were sort of first aware 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:21.040 of and what you've taken with you in terms of 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:24.199 this sort of you know, specifically moving through private and 0:27:24.240 --> 0:27:28.119 public spheres and also this legal versus not because all 0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.160 of you guys have had this experience and it really 0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:34.960 does something to someone, right in a not bad way, 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:37.480 but it is these like you're really aware I think 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.000 of modes. You know. It's funny, I don't think I 0:27:41.080 --> 0:27:44.520 became aware of it now that you're talking about it. Like, 0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:47.919 I don't think I became aware of it until I 0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:53.359 myself was in a corporate context, in part because like 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:56.000 nobody else in my family ever had been really in 0:27:56.080 --> 0:28:02.080 corporate context, right, Like my grandmother was a researcher and scientists. 0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:05.800 My you know, my aunt was um, you know, in 0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:10.760 public service, right, and was in politics. My mom was 0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:15.760 also a public interest lawyer. Right. And So now that 0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:17.920 I'm kind of thinking back to like, what did I 0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:20.400 see in terms of different modes? I frankly, I feel 0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:24.639 like the I really saw, for the most part, one mode, 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:27.679 which was more of the kind of like activist you know, 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:32.240 speak up, shout, you know, speak your mind, fight the power, 0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:34.800 right like bang down the door. I mean for sure, 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:37.399 from my my mom and my grandma. I guess I 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:41.160 suppose in some ways in that formulation, you know, I 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:45.719 saw through Kamala, my aunt, UM, you know, doing it 0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:50.800 more from the inside. But nevertheless, you know, she was 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:53.200 she chose to do the work that she did from 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:57.920 the perspective of you know, fighting for communities UM that 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:02.080 don't often get you know, act sus to those institutions 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:05.080 to be heard or to be you know protected, which 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:06.800 is to say that you know, it was about criminal 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:10.000 justice reform and racial justice, um, just as it was 0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:11.760 from my mom. They were just doing it sort of 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:16.080 from two different, uh spaces. But nevertheless, I felt like 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:20.240 for all of them it was still very strong. But 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:22.720 I think when you're talking about simply you know, using 0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:25.480 your voice, it was really kind of frankly, this one 0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:30.080 mode of being strong and powerful and speaking up and 0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:34.920 not being afraid to do that. Whereas I think this 0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:38.520 you know, kind of corporate stuff or even you know, 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:40.760 there's all this stuff around like code switching. I don't 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:44.440 think that I really appreciated that until I was experiencing 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:47.440 it myself. You mentioned code switching. Is it something that 0:29:47.480 --> 0:29:50.880 you think about? Yeah? Absolutely, I think that when it 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:56.280 comes to you know, your own culture and personal you know, 0:29:56.400 --> 0:30:00.080 culture and norms that may be different from you know, 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:02.240 the space that you're in, which is more likely than 0:30:02.360 --> 0:30:06.200 not going to be you know, predominantly white space. Especially 0:30:06.280 --> 0:30:09.320 we're talking about corporate and masculine. Let's just throw it 0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:12.440 all in, you know, absolutely, Yeah, I mean, you're you're 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:15.400 going to have to do that um or or I 0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:17.440 should put another way. I mean, this whole conversation is 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:19.560 about I guess I suppose like choosing to do that 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:22.200 or or not. Well. Part of the reason that I'm 0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:23.880 always talking about how to use your voice to get 0:30:23.920 --> 0:30:26.760 what you want, you know, I'm I'm using that phrase 0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:29.520 deliberately because it's really not about there being a right 0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:31.960 and a wrong way, or like a sort of morally 0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:35.600 better or morally worse way. It really is practical, you know. 0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:38.239 I mean, I would like us to all feel like 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:41.400 we live in a world where we can bring whatever 0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:44.960 feels culturally honest to us into the space. But you know, 0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:48.360 we don't always live in that world, and maybe it's 0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:51.960 our opportunity or responsibility to change the spaces that we're 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:53.840 in once we have a little power, but it's not 0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:57.600 necessarily our responsibility on our way up. It's risky. Yeah, 0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:00.280 I think that that's the part that is really hard, 0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:04.800 That people feel that they need to hide certain parts 0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:06.840 of themselves or speak in a way that is not 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:10.160 natural for them or what have you, in order to succeed, 0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:13.600 and there's fear and insecurity attached to it. Well, that's 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:15.680 what I mean that that they should have the responsibility 0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:19.040 lifted if it's about safety or about you know, literally 0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:20.920 your job is on the line. You are not the 0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:23.480 person who needs to be, you know, making a political 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.440 statement about this. My version of this, which is totally 0:31:26.440 --> 0:31:28.360 like a to C, but it's a it's an analogy 0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:31.200 that it feels right to me is when I'm working 0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:34.480 on a TV show and I'm surrounded by like, no 0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:38.000 people who have children, I should say, no women of 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:41.480 childbearing years, because twelve hour days on a TV show 0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:44.440 you kind of can't unless you have like a really 0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:50.360 really wild set of you know, childcare solutions exactly. And 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:52.800 so then there's me and you know, often there's like 0:31:52.840 --> 0:31:54.400 women who are younger than me who don't have kids yet, 0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:56.080 who don't know how they possibly could, and also still 0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:58.520 work in this industry, you know. And so in that context, 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:00.920 when I do feel like I do have a corner 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:04.160 of power that I can stand in, then I fucking 0:32:04.280 --> 0:32:06.640 love to talk about my kid, And not because I'm 0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:08.680 talking about it because like, oh my god, I'm not mom, 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:12.560 but because I'm normalizing that ship. Exactly. It's my responsibility 0:32:12.760 --> 0:32:14.800 in a way that feels satisfying, not in a way 0:32:14.840 --> 0:32:17.600 that feels heavy, you know, right, right, right right, And 0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:20.520 as you said that, it feels safe, and it's not 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:22.200 going to affect my job. It's only going to affect 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:24.320 the next generation and how they how they think about 0:32:24.360 --> 0:32:28.160 their own you know, freedom. But yeah, that's not the 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:30.440 same in every context. And will I necessarily bring my 0:32:30.480 --> 0:32:32.240 kid up in a job interview, and I know it's 0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:35.160 some like, you know, older guy who's going to be 0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:37.680 judging me for mentioning my kid because it's gonna have 0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:39.840 some implication for whether or not I would be focused 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:42.240 on my job. No, it is my responsibility to take 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.480 care of myself in that context, you know, right, which 0:32:45.520 --> 0:32:47.200 is sort of like the sad truth right. I think 0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:50.360 we're all working towards a world in which we don't 0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:52.840 have to do that, but it is the reality. It's 0:32:52.840 --> 0:32:54.959 sort of you know, what we aspire to versus like 0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:57.120 what we currently have to deal with and just be 0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:01.600 real about. Yeah. Yeah, I had this really interesting experience. 0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:05.960 It was about a year ago. I was interviewing John Thompson, 0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:11.640 who was at you know, IBM Forever and I believe 0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:15.680 was uh like vice president they're right, like very high up, 0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:20.200 and Stacy Brown Philpott who's the CEO of task Rabbit, 0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:24.440 and Stacy was talking about how John was, you know, 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:26.760 an inspiration for her. He was a model for her 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.080 in terms of what she like the next generation of 0:33:29.120 --> 0:33:31.720 what she wanted to achieve in her career. And having 0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:34.800 them both on stage talking about you know, things like 0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:37.040 diversity and inclusion and how do you show up in 0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:40.800 the workplace as your authentic self was really quite a 0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:44.440 moment for me where John said, you know, he showed 0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:48.200 up at IBM with his with his frow and his jeans, 0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:52.200 and everybody there was you know, clean cut, and they 0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:55.960 had suits in briefcases, and so he cut his frow 0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:58.520 and he put on a suit, and I was just 0:33:58.560 --> 0:34:01.560 sitting there like, oh my god, like wow, but of 0:34:01.600 --> 0:34:04.040 course he did, right, Like, of course he did. And 0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:07.400 Stacy's sitting on the stage with you know, Dreads, right 0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.600 and she's the CEO of you know, a major company, 0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:14.760 and it was just this amazing kind of moment of recognizing, 0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:17.560 you know, how how far we've come in some ways 0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:21.640 that Stacy is now able to feel confident in wearing 0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:23.640 you know, her natural hair to work in a way 0:34:23.680 --> 0:34:27.319 that John Thompson was not. But just that there's sort 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:30.120 of still reality and what he experienced, right, which is 0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:32.719 and I'm sure Stacy experiences it to which that you know, 0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:35.759 she can show up with her natural hair. But I'm 0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:39.160 sure that's not without a cost in some instances for her. 0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:42.000 I'm sure it's not. It's certainly not without thought of, 0:34:42.080 --> 0:34:44.560 you know, how it might be received. But she made 0:34:44.600 --> 0:34:47.759 that choice in and doing so makes it obviously, you know, 0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:51.719 she's setting that tone right from leadership down that that 0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:55.680 is something that is accepted and celebrated. I mean, my god, 0:34:55.719 --> 0:34:58.360 we like, let's be clear. You know, in California, we 0:34:58.480 --> 0:35:02.319 just passed a law that text you know, natural error 0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:04.919 from discrimination in the workplace, and the point is that 0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:09.120 we needed a law because there was real discrimination and 0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:12.600 harm that was happening for people in the workplace. And 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:16.000 when we're in a position of power, when we're able 0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:19.319 to do the hiring or you know, lead a team, 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:21.200 one of the things we can think about is the 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:23.000 ways that we can sort of loosen some of those 0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:26.160 you know, or not even necessarily loosened, but just questions 0:35:26.160 --> 0:35:27.840 some of the assumptions that have been handed down to 0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:31.240 us from that older generation that's aging out right and 0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:33.759 and model it yourself right. I think that that is key, 0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:36.120 is that it does feel out and taken, that you're 0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:39.480 actually doing it versus just saying it right. That's that's 0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:41.200 when it really comes down to, like are you actually 0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:45.480 modeling the culture that you're you know, promoting. So, speaking 0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:48.400 of modeling, you have a kid's book coming out, and 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:52.080 I want to talk about how tell me about this book. 0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:54.879 It's not out yet, it's not out yet, it's coming 0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:57.520 out very soon. It's gonna come out on June two. 0:35:57.719 --> 0:36:00.880 We have a whole pre order campaign right now that's 0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:04.160 really about supporting local bookstores, which was, as we know, 0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:07.960 have been hit pretty hard by this public health crisis. 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:09.879 And so I'm really proud that we have a whole 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:12.879 campaign around supporting local bookstores. But yeah, you know, it's 0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:16.040 the whole book is really about everything we're talking about, right, 0:36:16.040 --> 0:36:18.040 It's it's this family I grew up in. It's these 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:20.719 stories that I heard as a kid about my mom 0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:23.239 and aunt um when they were children, and it's just 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:25.720 that that they, you know, at at a young age, 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:30.360 were taught and you know, demonstrated this uh strength and 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:33.560 speaking up in confidence and in deciding to you know, 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:36.000 have big, bold ideas and to and to go for 0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:38.160 them and to figure out, you know, how do you 0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:41.200 lean on your community, how do you come together and 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:43.480 draw strength and numbers to make your voice even more 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:46.439 powerful when people tell you that you're too small um 0:36:46.560 --> 0:36:49.200 or that you know it can't be done right. It's 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:52.160 basically everything is shyant theory is what you're saying. Everything 0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:56.319 it all goes back to that. But it's really I 0:36:56.320 --> 0:36:59.600 think what I what has been so fun and meaningful 0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:02.239 is that obviously it's something that is special, you know, 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:04.040 as I think about raising my own girls in the 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:07.719 same way and sharing that experience with them of growing 0:37:07.800 --> 0:37:09.600 up in the household that I did, but sharing it 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:12.160 with people all around the world and little girls around 0:37:12.160 --> 0:37:13.759 the world. Well, I should actually say a little girl's 0:37:13.760 --> 0:37:16.040 only guys, it's for it's for all kids, right, But 0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:19.880 whose stories we sent our matters because you know, exactly 0:37:20.239 --> 0:37:23.440 exactly we know that girls of color and black children 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:27.200 especially are still woefully underrepresented on bookshelves, and we have 0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:29.600 a lot more work to do there um in terms of, 0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:33.080 you know, again representation, whose voices are are elevated, who 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:35.879 do we listen to? And also, you know, as somebody 0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:39.120 who's raising a white boy, which I think about very seriously, 0:37:39.600 --> 0:37:41.319 I really want to make it clear that he can 0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:44.800 work that muscle every day, that empathy muscle of seeing 0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:46.400 a story about someone who doesn't look like him and 0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:50.920 thinking I get that. I get that absolutely well. We 0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:54.280 also know, you know that when we talk about things 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:57.960 like you know, cultural norms around sexual harassment and do 0:37:58.040 --> 0:38:01.359 we do we treat girls and women is fully formed 0:38:01.440 --> 0:38:03.920 humans who are capable of saying yes and no, Like 0:38:04.000 --> 0:38:07.680 this is basic stuff, but it starts so young and 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:11.280 because of a lot of the cultural you know, harmful 0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:15.560 social norms that we have you know, so far kind 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:18.560 of instilled within kids, like that's what it turns into 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:22.319 and you can catch that stuff early. You can you 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:25.120 can really do good early on if you're intentional about it, 0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:27.880 and counteract some of the stuff that we know happens 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:31.080 later on. Um, which is very basic. Totally. It feels 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:34.000 in my home, especially like now that my home is 0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:37.640 my entire life, like it's a form of activism when 0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:41.920 you know, we're getting these horrible, horrible messages from from 0:38:41.960 --> 0:38:44.360 you know, from Washington, from the outside, from the people 0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:46.960 that think that they're in power, and just to be 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:48.919 able to say, like, we're changing the story right now, 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:52.759 right here tonight at bedtime, Yes, you know exactly, And 0:38:52.760 --> 0:38:54.680 it's interesting, yeah, for you to say we're changing the story. 0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:56.360 I mean, part of what inspired me to do the 0:38:56.360 --> 0:38:59.440 book is that I spent a lot of time as 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.000 a new mom, my first kid, literally changing the story, 0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:07.120 changing he to her, coloring the skin in the character's breath, 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:10.160 you know, and I sort of you know, when you 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:12.440 talk about activism, part of it is just deciding like 0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:14.680 I'm going to go go out there and I'm gonna 0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:16.040 go do it. And that's what I did. I was like, 0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:17.839 I'm going to write the damn book myself because I'm 0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:21.080 not seeing it, and I want my girls to have that, 0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:24.080 you know, and in that way too, I think that 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:26.800 there's so much of what what it's about that again 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:30.200 is basic, but that really adults can take away I 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:32.360 think big lessons from that too. Right. I've spent the 0:39:32.440 --> 0:39:35.799 last three years through Phenomenal talking to many adult women 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:37.279 who are saying, you know, what can I do? How 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:39.359 do I show up? How do I speak up right? 0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:40.880 How do I use my voice in a way that 0:39:41.000 --> 0:39:44.400 is meaningful and impactful? And it really comes down to 0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:47.160 basic stuff, um that you know. I don't want to 0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:50.439 downplay how hard it can be, right, but if you're 0:39:50.520 --> 0:39:53.520 if you're kind of actively pursuing it and thinking about it, 0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:55.399 you can do it yourself. You can read your kids 0:39:55.400 --> 0:39:57.760 that way, and it can be something that just becomes 0:39:57.760 --> 0:40:00.759 second nature. Right, And that is absolutely how I was 0:40:00.840 --> 0:40:02.880 raised and something I wanted to share with other people. Completely. 0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:04.960 It's completely and I think you're right. I mean, obviously 0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:07.279 can feel really intimidating when people say, like, you know, 0:40:07.440 --> 0:40:10.520 speak up whatever, stand up for yourself. But if you're 0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:13.080 thinking about like the incremental steps, if you're thinking about 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:16.239 like I can change the pronoun for my kid or 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:18.600 then or you know what we're talking about earlier, like 0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:20.520 from the shine theory, from the point of view of 0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:22.520 the person who's doing that, Like, I just want to 0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:24.279 point out what me and It just said. You know, 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:26.120 those are these like little ways that we can like 0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:30.080 literally make our bodies get used to what's standing up 0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:34.960 for ourselves. Feels like exactly. Okay, last question before the break. 0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:38.160 Any comments people have made about your voice that you 0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:40.759 wish you could unhear but you can't. We've had a 0:40:40.760 --> 0:40:45.640 lot of conversation about the corporate context and how much 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:47.680 it can harm all of us. But I think there's 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:52.439 also um points during that journey that I can uh 0:40:52.560 --> 0:40:54.800 point to you that I felt like it wasn't necessarily 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:58.719 that I um that I was being like silenced, but 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.560 there were moments where I felt like I was pushed 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:07.080 to question my voice or change my voice. And in particular, 0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:09.200 there was a tech company that I was working at 0:41:09.200 --> 0:41:12.839 in one of my male coworkers said, you know, like 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:16.360 you're very direct and that can be off putting to people, 0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:20.440 and you know, right, like, I feel like we've all 0:41:20.480 --> 0:41:25.120 heard this before right at this point, but the kicker 0:41:25.560 --> 0:41:28.400 was he said, you know, I would recommend that you 0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:33.120 put more exclamation points and emojis in your communications to 0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:37.960 make people feel more comfortable. And I was just like, 0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:40.719 are you fucking kidding me? Like you want me to 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:42.840 add more exclamation Like did you seriously to say that 0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:45.719 to me? And my first thought was, you know, wow, 0:41:45.719 --> 0:41:49.440 would he say that to a guy? Right? But you 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:52.600 know it was also back to kind of the original conversation. 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:56.400 It was a moment of for me learning to adapt 0:41:56.480 --> 0:41:59.439 to different you know, work environments. Did I put more 0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:02.960 exclamation points in my communications like get out of here? 0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:07.000 But you know, there were other ways that I thought 0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:11.239 about quote unquote like softening right, because it was it 0:42:11.320 --> 0:42:14.279 was clearly a place where that was valued and that 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:17.520 was needed. And so I think the lesson for me 0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:22.840 is being able to understand when somebody's like bullshit and 0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:26.759 literally trying to silence you, versus being able to draw 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:31.040 out you know what could be constructive like feedback. Right. 0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:35.800 It's the email equivalent of smile more. Oh, absolutely, no question. 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:40.240 I mean like literally used literally use like smiley face emojis? 0:42:40.239 --> 0:42:42.600 Are you kidding me? I mean? It's also it's also 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:46.160 what a what a what a story? To underline the 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:48.960 fact that like you know, in many ways this feels 0:42:48.960 --> 0:42:52.279 like a losing battle because for as many people as 0:42:52.560 --> 0:42:55.239 you know, will be listening to that and and see 0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:58.560 themselves in that situation, there's all the people who have 0:42:58.600 --> 0:43:01.799 been made fun of for the exclamation points in the 0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:07.000 emoji because it's it's quote unquote undermine exactly. And in particular, 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:09.799 you know, you hear women talk about that. That makes 0:43:09.840 --> 0:43:12.080 people think that they're not professional. Like it's just it's 0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:16.360 like lose, lose, right, like you can't when it's also 0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:19.759 like the vocal equivalent. Is this this idea of like 0:43:19.760 --> 0:43:21.800 should you lower your voice in order to be taken 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:24.239 seriously like pitch wise, you know which I mean. There's 0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:27.200 like this classic you know, Margaret Thatcher in the seventies 0:43:27.280 --> 0:43:29.959 was went to us, you know, like a theater coach 0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:32.040 who who taught her to speak lower, and then all 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:34.160 of a sudden it worked and she ran all of England, 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:37.960 you know, and then and then and then the you know, 0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:39.799 other side of it is that a lot of us 0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:42.840 have learned how to do some version of talking higher 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:45.200 or up speak or whatever in order to get what 0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:47.880 we want in other contexts where we can all read 0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:51.040 the room and tell that like a little bit of unintimidating, 0:43:51.080 --> 0:43:53.279 don't worry, I'm fine, is going to get us what 0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:56.160 we want more. And you know, there are benefits to 0:43:56.280 --> 0:43:58.680 both their drawbacks. But it's like we have so many 0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:01.960 more tools at our disposal then we sometimes think we do. 0:44:02.200 --> 0:44:04.640 And you know, obviously there's just a lot of emotional 0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:08.319 ship wrapped up in that. But if we can you know, 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:12.040 what you said about finding the aspect of it that's 0:44:12.040 --> 0:44:17.120 constructive is probably really useful for people. I mean, like, 0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:20.839 obviously we can just like shout sexism, or we can 0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:23.640 say every single one of us needs to adapt to 0:44:23.719 --> 0:44:26.239 every room we're in if we want to, you know, 0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:30.400 get what we can the most out of that room, 0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:33.239 right exactly, And it's deciding. I mean that back to 0:44:33.280 --> 0:44:35.640 that quote you gave at the beginning, or right at 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.800 the beginning, you know what parts you want to make visible, 0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:41.440 right and what's not negotiable. I mean that's also what 0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:48.880 we're talking about, exactly exactly exactly, call call call the 0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:51.960 bullshit when you see it and decide, you know what 0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:54.680 you're going to take from it to better yourself so 0:44:54.719 --> 0:44:57.720 that you are more effective, not so that other people 0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:02.120 are more accepting of you because of their own insecurities 0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:05.120 or issues or bias, c s or whatever. Yeah, like, 0:45:05.160 --> 0:45:07.720 are you just enabling their ship or are you actually 0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:10.319 helping yourself and helping them? And then it's a team 0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:12.600 effort and you can convince yourself of that aspect of it, 0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:13.719 and then you know what, when you have a little 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:17.759 bit more power, loosen it a little exactly is all 0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:19.440 the stuff? Is all the real stuff. And we're not 0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:22.200 even talking about how to like actually breaks the class ceiling, 0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:25.880 but we also are we actually as Yeah, it's just 0:45:25.960 --> 0:45:31.719 like and also like like ourselves at the end of 0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:35.200 the day and like, Okay, we're gonna take a quick 0:45:35.239 --> 0:45:37.120 break and then we're gonna come back and find out 0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:48.000 whose voice you've brought in for us to listen to. Okay, 0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:51.080 we're back, So, Mina, who have you brought in for us? 0:45:51.719 --> 0:45:53.880 I have brought in She's sitting right here next to me, 0:45:54.120 --> 0:46:02.000 just kidding. I wish social distancing, social distancing in my dreams. 0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:05.400 Um Alicia Garza, who is a dear friend of mine. 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:09.319 She's the co founder of Black Lives Matter and is 0:46:09.400 --> 0:46:12.480 the founder of Black Futures Lab, And it's just one 0:46:12.520 --> 0:46:15.719 of the most extraordinary people. I know. Yes, I'm so 0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:18.480 glad you brought her in. I've been just like relishing, 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:20.800 going back and listening to a bunch of her stuff. 0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:24.800 I pulled a little a little something here, Okay, here's Alicia. 0:46:25.120 --> 0:46:33.360 I simultaneously feel grateful and exhausted. Um and tender. Tender 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:36.000 is the word I would use. Um, But I'm very 0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:40.879 fortunate to have squad that has my back and um. 0:46:40.960 --> 0:46:43.680 One of the blessings of having been an organizer for 0:46:43.719 --> 0:46:47.600 almost twenty years is that I am never allowed to 0:46:47.760 --> 0:46:55.160 forget where I come from ever ever. Ah Me, She's 0:46:55.600 --> 0:47:00.840 such She's such a lesson in how to be in 0:47:00.880 --> 0:47:03.600 the middle of your thoughts in front of a crowd. 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:07.960 Exactly what she said is sort of who I mean. 0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:11.719 It's she's like, it's she's tender. She there's something so 0:47:11.840 --> 0:47:16.040 calming about her and almost there's like this teacher quality 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:19.600 to her sometimes right, like a patient kind almost like 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:24.640 protective teacher who has your back, but who's also brilliant. 0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:26.640 And it's just like you just want them to keep 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:30.640 talking at you, right, and just like keep talking totally. 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:33.080 There's this moment she says at the end that's like right, 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:35.279 and she does it a lot in this whole thing 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:37.719 where it's like it's a it's a it's a real 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:40.320 check in with this room full of hundreds of people. 0:47:40.400 --> 0:47:44.120 This is a this is at a University of Chicago, um, like, 0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:48.920 you know whatever, some academic uh discussion, and it's an 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:52.120 answer to a question from the audience. But she's like 0:47:52.400 --> 0:47:56.480 whenever she says that, right, she's not seating the floor, 0:47:56.600 --> 0:48:00.560 she's not saying I'm done. She's just like she's so 0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:03.160 she's so a new you know, you know her personally, 0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:05.080 it sounds like this is this is just I mean, 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:07.719 I can tell, but it sounds like this is real. 0:48:07.800 --> 0:48:11.279 But she's just like so in possession of herself absolutely 0:48:11.320 --> 0:48:13.440 and being able to do that in front of an audience, 0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:14.920 you know, I mean, as she says it in that 0:48:15.000 --> 0:48:17.080 little clip, which is partly why I like that clip, 0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:21.759 the sort of lifelong community organizing, you know, I get 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:24.359 the impression, and it's beautiful to see her in front 0:48:24.360 --> 0:48:26.719 of a crowd, not just in a you know, commencement 0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:29.319 address or a rally type of context, but something like this. 0:48:29.400 --> 0:48:34.279 It's sort of gentler. Uh, She's sort of like it's 0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:37.719 the same thing of I'm me and you're you, but 0:48:37.840 --> 0:48:41.960 actually we're us that I think all of us can 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:46.520 learn from. Yeah, it's just sort of like total exactly acceptance, 0:48:46.760 --> 0:48:50.200 and you just feel like wrapped in a blanket when 0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:56.200 she talks. There's a there's an inclusivity, that's what I mean. 0:48:56.239 --> 0:48:58.879 She's also like talking about really tough things and not 0:48:58.920 --> 0:49:02.080 necessarily saying like, you know, we're all the same, but 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:04.600 there's a place from us and a lightness because of 0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:06.799 that inclusivity. I feel like, because she's saying, you know 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:09.560 what I mean exactly, and she really draws you in. 0:49:10.760 --> 0:49:13.800 Oh it's I came across the Martin Luther King quote 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:16.520 recently that made me think of her. He said, a 0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:19.200 genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus, but a 0:49:19.280 --> 0:49:24.839 molder of consensus. Absolutely. Yeah, Like people don't even know 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:27.320 that they're being kind of drawn into I don't know 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:29.279 if that's right. That doesn't that sounds doesn't sound right, 0:49:29.280 --> 0:49:31.759 that sounds manipulative. But like, you know, it's like it's 0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.480 like before you know it, you're like, well, obviously what 0:49:34.600 --> 0:49:38.640 she said makes sense, right, obviously, right, right, Well, And 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:41.960 there's it's work, it's your molding. It's a process, right, 0:49:42.000 --> 0:49:44.840 it's not just like talking at people from the audience. 0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:50.120 It feels like that exactly right, right. And also I 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:52.200 will say, you know, partly what she's talking about, but 0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:54.759 partly literally her voice in that in that clip I 0:49:54.800 --> 0:49:58.399 pick sounds really tired, you know. But I also think 0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:00.920 that sometimes we think that we have to um like this, 0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:05.400 this perfect polished voice, and she's a fantastic example that 0:50:05.520 --> 0:50:10.000 like polish is not the thing man, you know, absolutely, Yeah, 0:50:10.239 --> 0:50:13.160 it's hard doing the work she's doing is hard, being 0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:16.920 that connected, being that engaged, not not into it. But 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:20.640 it costs, as you said, it costs something. Yeah, there's labor, 0:50:20.840 --> 0:50:24.960 emotional labor. Yeah, right, there's something. So you know that 0:50:25.000 --> 0:50:26.840 thing we all know, but we have to sort of 0:50:26.880 --> 0:50:30.000 figure out how to do of vulnerable actually is powerful. 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:33.840 She's really like doing with her actual voice exactly. And 0:50:33.880 --> 0:50:35.640 I think, you know, I think we're all of us 0:50:35.680 --> 0:50:38.399 are getting probably more comfortable with that now in terms 0:50:38.440 --> 0:50:42.320 of this moment that we're in right something, this crisis, 0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:47.880 this emergency, and everybody is experiencing something in some way, 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:52.360 and UM to pretend otherwise is you know, it's going 0:50:52.400 --> 0:50:55.520 to be very obviously you're pretending. Yeah, exactly, and it's 0:50:55.560 --> 0:50:58.200 just not gonna you know, resonate with people. That's right, 0:50:58.320 --> 0:51:00.319 That's right, And thank you for mentioning that, because it's 0:51:00.440 --> 0:51:02.719 you know, obviously present for all of us right now 0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:05.840 for this conversation, for everything, you know, for trying to 0:51:05.960 --> 0:51:07.800 keep our kids on the other side of the door, 0:51:07.840 --> 0:51:13.839 you know, for whatever exactly the little things, um that 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:16.319 we have to do, like hiding in our own houses. Yeah, 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:18.920 I really think that honesty, especially when it comes to 0:51:19.080 --> 0:51:21.359 our vulnerability or however we want to however we want 0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:24.200 to think about the stuff that's that's feeling hard for us, 0:51:24.680 --> 0:51:26.839 is a real strength right now because it is a connector. 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:29.120 I mean, you know, to to to think, to act 0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:32.600 otherwise is disconnecting in this time when like we all 0:51:32.640 --> 0:51:34.960 just we all just near like so learning for connection, 0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:37.560 whether it's because people are living you know, at home alone, 0:51:38.080 --> 0:51:40.480 or whether we're just trying to say, like high high 0:51:40.560 --> 0:51:42.799 world out there, are you feeling what I'm feeling, And 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:45.040 the fact that we can, like all in the entire 0:51:45.200 --> 0:51:48.319 world say yes is such a moment we should ride 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:52.040 and not try to fight, you know, right, Yeah, absolutely, Well, 0:51:52.040 --> 0:51:55.920 on that note, thanks for writing writing writing it with me, 0:51:57.440 --> 0:52:00.680 I mean this is such a delight. Yeah, thank you. 0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:04.480 I love that you joined me in the virtual space 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:10.480 that is the podcast. Thank you to Mina for joining me. 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:12.160 You can find out more about her in the show 0:52:12.200 --> 0:52:15.200 notes or on our website Permission to Speak pod dot com. 0:52:15.239 --> 0:52:17.000 Please also go to the site if you have any 0:52:17.000 --> 0:52:20.239 awesome quotes or any questions you want to submit for 0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:23.239 my next mail dig episode. What is getting in the 0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:26.000 way of your voice? I always want to know? Also 0:52:26.080 --> 0:52:28.000 feel free to send d M s or voicemail moos 0:52:28.040 --> 0:52:30.480 to our Instagram at Permission to Speak Pod, where we're 0:52:30.520 --> 0:52:34.279 posting a bunch and join the community. Thanks as well 0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:36.440 to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I Heart Radio, 0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:41.120 my family and cohort and all of you. We're recording 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:45.480 this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:48.200 that used to belong to the Tongva indigenous tribe, and 0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:50.800 you can visit us D A C dot us to 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:54.680 learn more about honoring native land. Permission to Speak is 0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:57.759 a production of My Heart Radio and Double Vision Executive 0:52:57.760 --> 0:53:00.799 produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark ten For more 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:03.600 podcasts from My Heart Radio, listen on the I Heart 0:53:03.640 --> 0:53:07.280 Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:09.000 H