Speaker 1: This is from Stacy Abram's book Lead from the Outside,
Speaker 1: call its Success, Leadership, Confidence, or any of a dozen descriptions.
Speaker 1: What we're in pursuit of is power, the power to
Speaker 1: control our lives, to change our fates, and to win
Speaker 1: what some have been raised to take for granted. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the podcast That's all about the Voice, which means
Speaker 1: it's all about power, Who has it, how we get it,
Speaker 1: how we sound when we have it. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: samaraw Ba, and this is permission to speak, where we
Speaker 1: can throw all our best ideas about how to get
Speaker 1: ourselves heard into the pot and start. Today's guest is
Speaker 1: Mina Harris. She is the founder and CEO of the
Speaker 1: Fun Nominal Woman Action campaign that's like a little more
Speaker 1: than a dieser company. It's basically a movement at this
Speaker 1: point that connects so many of us, as well as
Speaker 1: one that shines a light on and raises funds for
Speaker 1: all kinds of important social causes, from Families Belong Together
Speaker 1: which helped with the crisis of the border, to hire heights,
Speaker 1: and organization that supports women of color and leadership. I
Speaker 1: wanted to have Mina on because she has worked in
Speaker 1: so many rooms that are hard to get into. She
Speaker 1: graduated from Harvard Law School. She's worked in tech, in corporate,
Speaker 1: in the social justice space. She did youth vote organizing
Speaker 1: for Barack Obama's campaign and OH eight, and she's also
Speaker 1: worked on her aunt, Kamala's campaigns for Attorney General of California,
Speaker 1: as well as her senate and residential runs. We talked
Speaker 1: about how to handle intimidating spaces, how to not suck
Speaker 1: at meetings, how to speak up and how to not,
Speaker 1: and what it takes to center our stories for ourselves
Speaker 1: and for our kids. This is mina mina Hi being here,
Speaker 1: think here doesn't even mean anything anymore. Thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us remotely. It's great to hear your voice, still
Speaker 1: feeling that connection, but yeah, it's kind of a weird time. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm really struck by how many different industries you've worked
Speaker 1: in or are working in, from corporate to law to
Speaker 1: politics to tech, and how they sort of all run
Speaker 1: on meetings. So I'd love to dive in here first
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, our listeners and all of
Speaker 1: us thinking about how we're using our voice literally and metaphorically,
Speaker 1: like what what actually happens? What have you found is
Speaker 1: first of all, what's like, what's like meeting mina? Like?
Speaker 1: What what's your style? You know what I mean? What
Speaker 1: you hate? What do you like? What you know? It's
Speaker 1: a strong word, but like what really doesn't work? Oh
Speaker 1: my god, well I will use the word hate. I
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like a full on meme now, but
Speaker 1: you know, meetings that should have been emails like I
Speaker 1: So to answer your question meeting mina, it's funny, you know,
Speaker 1: I think actually my meeting style is different in different contexts.
Speaker 1: I would say that, And I think this goes to
Speaker 1: probably what a lot of what we'll talk about right
Speaker 1: in terms of how you use your voice in different settings.
Speaker 1: But I would say sort of in the corporate professional space,
Speaker 1: it's very direct. It's like about business. It's about like efficiency,
Speaker 1: like let's get this done right, to the point of
Speaker 1: um not having uh, you know, unnecessary meetings that could
Speaker 1: have been handled via email. UM, so much more sort
Speaker 1: of you know, I guess about business, maybe even a
Speaker 1: little bit more formal in that way. And I think
Speaker 1: probably that comes more from my corporate law background than
Speaker 1: it does tech, because tech is I think much more
Speaker 1: UM can be much more sort of casual, and then
Speaker 1: on the flip side, I think with phenomenal Um, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's interesting. I guess I do think that
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit less formal. I think in part
Speaker 1: because the nature of the work is just so different, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of external partners, a lot
Speaker 1: of it is creative, so a lot of it is
Speaker 1: like brainstorming and um kind of working through different issues
Speaker 1: and how we're going to talk about them, learning about them.
Speaker 1: So I think that that one is a little bit
Speaker 1: more kind of like me, and maybe there's a little
Speaker 1: bit more you know, humor, and it's a little feels
Speaker 1: more maybe like closely connected in terms of the teams
Speaker 1: that I work with. So yeah, there's definitely a difference.
Speaker 1: But I would say that the professional sort of meeting
Speaker 1: MINA corporate MINA is definitely kind of more about business.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like that also is related to the
Speaker 1: actual makeup of who's in those meetings in terms of
Speaker 1: gender and age or is it not that and it's
Speaker 1: much more about the actual like industry. I think it's
Speaker 1: more about the standards that I hold for myself. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess if I'm to think about that, I probably
Speaker 1: carried over, Yes, some of that from the corporate law context,
Speaker 1: where it's much more you know, formal and buttoned up
Speaker 1: and um, you know, you're presenting to a client or
Speaker 1: you know, presenting to a partner, to a boss, and
Speaker 1: it's sort of much more um maybe pressure to feel
Speaker 1: like you need to you know, perform and impress. I'm
Speaker 1: not at all things that's a good thing. I also
Speaker 1: feel like it's not a bad thing. Like I think
Speaker 1: it's too easy for us to be like we should
Speaker 1: always just be casual. But really there's a reason that
Speaker 1: we read a room and you know, react accordingly exactly,
Speaker 1: and it's been one of the biggest I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, things that I've learned and adjusted to going
Speaker 1: from you know, big law into tech, which is tech
Speaker 1: is much more informal in many different ways. And part
Speaker 1: of it is, as you said, reading the room, it's
Speaker 1: adapting to different cultures, right, and and work styles. And
Speaker 1: when you think about leadership, know within a company and outside,
Speaker 1: it's sort of like you have to think about do
Speaker 1: you want to be that type of leader that adapts
Speaker 1: to different cultures from work styles or are you the
Speaker 1: type of leader that's like I don't care. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do what I want to do. And you can guess,
Speaker 1: you know, I I have opinions on sort of who's
Speaker 1: more effective, but I think that's what it comes down to, right,
Speaker 1: Are you being effective? Are you communicating in a way
Speaker 1: where you are developing you know, influence and followership and
Speaker 1: buy in? Right? I think that's that's what it comes
Speaker 1: down to. And and people feeling invested and passionate and
Speaker 1: what you're doing. And I think that's key, right anything
Speaker 1: being successful. And I absolutely see that with you know,
Speaker 1: phenomenal woman, where you know, I think you cannot miss
Speaker 1: my passion and enthusiasm for that, and um it's about,
Speaker 1: you know, how do you get others to feel that
Speaker 1: right and to feel moved by that, um so that
Speaker 1: they're just as invested. And I will say that there
Speaker 1: have been moments where I have found I felt frustrated
Speaker 1: right where there are work styles that I preferred from
Speaker 1: corporate law and ways of sort of doing business and
Speaker 1: doing work that are simply just not the norm. And
Speaker 1: I've had to figure out, you know, how do I
Speaker 1: adapt to them in a way where I can still
Speaker 1: be successful in terms of like having to okay, so
Speaker 1: we need to soften here, and we need to actually
Speaker 1: like have a chat about however body is before we
Speaker 1: can get into business. When really I'd like to get
Speaker 1: into business. That's totally one of them. Totally one of them.
Speaker 1: As a as a type A, I hear that and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I see you, which is not to say
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I'm also like a wildly friendly human
Speaker 1: who wants to know about people. But you know that's
Speaker 1: when it's like, let's do that over drinks exactly. And
Speaker 1: I think part of it is just you know, generational
Speaker 1: frankly too. I mean that's also culture, of course, but
Speaker 1: I definitely, you know, kind of grew up and was
Speaker 1: schooled in, you know, the thought that like you're not
Speaker 1: you're not going to work to make friends, You're going
Speaker 1: to work to do work, right, And it's just, you know,
Speaker 1: the culture is different in different places. And I think
Speaker 1: as well, like I said, in the corporate law on sex,
Speaker 1: there's a very clear kind of separation between those two spaces, um,
Speaker 1: you know, happy hour versus like when you're at work
Speaker 1: and in meetings. And I think part of it, I mean,
Speaker 1: just to be very um you know, to like really
Speaker 1: break it down. Part of it is that you're literally
Speaker 1: on a billable hour, right, like minutes are dollars right
Speaker 1: when you're in a corporate law context, so you really
Speaker 1: don't want to be wasting, you know, time when you're
Speaker 1: on the clock doing things that are are not contributing
Speaker 1: to the work. So but you know, again, I think
Speaker 1: it's something that I've definitely learned and I think has
Speaker 1: made me probably I hope, more of an effective leader,
Speaker 1: where it does go a long way to just stop
Speaker 1: and say, hey, how are how are you right? Like
Speaker 1: how is your weekend? Or how are your kids? Um? Again,
Speaker 1: to your point, like, I'm such a I'm a very warm,
Speaker 1: you know person, I'm very interested in other people and
Speaker 1: and want to know how their kids and lives are.
Speaker 1: But I've traditionally sort of reserved that for a certain
Speaker 1: time and space. And I think that the lines are
Speaker 1: a little bit more you know, blurred in tech for example. Well,
Speaker 1: and I would also argue that there's like a little
Speaker 1: bit of a false dichotomy that we might be sort
Speaker 1: of accidentally falling into, because I also think there's something
Speaker 1: about I don't know, when you're entirely in a corporate
Speaker 1: or legal context, and you're really just like solving a
Speaker 1: problem and moving on. But if you're actually working with
Speaker 1: people that you work with like on a regular basis
Speaker 1: and you have a shared history, there can be something
Speaker 1: that feels very friend like in actually doing the work
Speaker 1: together and caring together about a thing about you know,
Speaker 1: solving this thing that's in front of us. So it's
Speaker 1: not just like we're cold when we do the work
Speaker 1: and we're warm when we talk about our lives. You know,
Speaker 1: there's like this really gorgeous, nebulous space that we often
Speaker 1: are in with our with our real collaborators where we're
Speaker 1: not talking about our our lives outside of the room,
Speaker 1: and yet we're bringing ourselves. Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And I think again it depends on the context and
Speaker 1: the nature of the work. I find that that comes
Speaker 1: out a lot more in the work that we do
Speaker 1: with um Phenomenal, because it's about you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff that we're doing is talking about issues
Speaker 1: that impact human lives in you know, serious ways, and
Speaker 1: there's more emotion, there's more you know, sort of getting
Speaker 1: in touch with the the issues and empathy and on
Speaker 1: all that stuff. And I think to your point, there
Speaker 1: are ways in which you know, we it's important to
Speaker 1: bring those perspectives into the room, even when more formal
Speaker 1: corporate context. Right, if you're talking about really sort of
Speaker 1: being creative and doing interesting work and allowing the team
Speaker 1: sort of the space to connect in a way that's
Speaker 1: gonna lead to better work, I think, you know, it's
Speaker 1: just funny. I've seen it. I've also seen it go
Speaker 1: kind of like off a deep end where um, it's
Speaker 1: like you it's it's a little bit too much, right,
Speaker 1: And so I think part of it too is you
Speaker 1: have to establish the boundaries. You have to establish sort
Speaker 1: of the standards and the culture so that it doesn't
Speaker 1: sort of get away from you, Right. I mean that's
Speaker 1: part of leadership for sure. Exactly exactly, not necessarily saying
Speaker 1: out loud. You know, we can talk about our home
Speaker 1: lives for five minutes and then let's switch. That sounds
Speaker 1: like a little too much, but you know something, by modeling,
Speaker 1: you know exactly exactly. Okay, So to back up real fast,
Speaker 1: you worked at Facebook, at Slack, at an international law
Speaker 1: firm like you're talking about. You worked on the campaign
Speaker 1: for Barrock as well as for Kamala. I want to
Speaker 1: know about like what makes you intimidated? Wow, what makes
Speaker 1: me intimidated? You've been in so many rooms, right, I
Speaker 1: mean we're talking a little bit about reading those rooms
Speaker 1: and no one when to speak up. I've come to
Speaker 1: just in my own sort of like self awareness and journey.
Speaker 1: I think that the moments when I've been most intimidated
Speaker 1: are when I feel like I don't know enough or
Speaker 1: no everything right. And I experienced it, I think, really
Speaker 1: um intensely for the first time in law school, where
Speaker 1: you know, it's new material. It's just it's a totally
Speaker 1: new world. And I wasn't one of those people who
Speaker 1: came in sort of theyre had a lot of classmates
Speaker 1: that you know, had like done pre law and we're
Speaker 1: like really kind of acted demic, you know, in like
Speaker 1: legal um space before coming to law school, and I
Speaker 1: think we're kind of much more immersed in it. But
Speaker 1: I felt like there were the moments, you know, in
Speaker 1: class where and you can't know everything. I think that's
Speaker 1: part of like the understanding of the journey. But I
Speaker 1: think those are the moments where I felt intimidated, where
Speaker 1: it's like I didn't know everything perfectly, I didn't have
Speaker 1: sort of full expert, you know, knowledge of a certain issue,
Speaker 1: and therefore felt intimidated about you know, speaking to those things,
Speaker 1: whether it was like a case in class or you know,
Speaker 1: in political context and uh, you know, some sort of
Speaker 1: policy issue. And then maybe perhaps the intimidation also came
Speaker 1: from being surrounded by people who I did perceive as
Speaker 1: sort of you know, knowing that stuff and being really
Speaker 1: you know, accomplished or or knowledgeable. Right at my law
Speaker 1: firm as an example, I mean, it was one of
Speaker 1: the most formative professional experiences for me, in part because
Speaker 1: I was just surrounded by some of the most brilliant
Speaker 1: people I've ever met in my life. Right, Um, so,
Speaker 1: I think there's obviously an intersection there of of of
Speaker 1: confidence to right. And I think part of that in
Speaker 1: my own journey is is knowing what you don't know
Speaker 1: and being okay with that and being able to say,
Speaker 1: you know, depending on the context. You know, I need
Speaker 1: to look into this more. But here's what I do know,
Speaker 1: and here's how I would just want to a based
Speaker 1: on what I do know, rather than maybe in those
Speaker 1: instances choosing not to speak at all, right, just acknowledging
Speaker 1: the limitations and still you know, offering contributions based on
Speaker 1: what you do know, um, and I think that's obviously
Speaker 1: better than and then not you know, and then staying silent,
Speaker 1: which I've definitely done before. I did it a lot
Speaker 1: in law school. I sort of just chose, um not
Speaker 1: to to speak up as much as I probably would have,
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to make mistakes. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to seem, you know, not as knowledgeable. Yeah, oh my god,
Speaker 1: there's so much there. There's so much. There's a lot
Speaker 1: like like I mean, first of all, just just it's
Speaker 1: okay to not speak up sometimes, you know, like absolutely
Speaker 1: for so many of us, especially when we're feeling like
Speaker 1: we have to prove ourselves, which is all of us
Speaker 1: all the time. Not really, but like you know, they're
Speaker 1: they're that's that's like such a universal experience for people. Um,
Speaker 1: this sort of like take me seriously, and to know
Speaker 1: that there is a strength in in you know, quietly
Speaker 1: observing and sort of collecting your thoughts which we sometimes forget,
Speaker 1: and also knowing what you're talking about when you talk, right,
Speaker 1: Like there's definitely something to that as well, right, But
Speaker 1: also like it's so hard to because like there's so
Speaker 1: much leniency with white men when it comes to that,
Speaker 1: like they can think they're thoughts out loud as they
Speaker 1: have them, and they may not even end in a
Speaker 1: particularly useful place. Absolutely, yeah, but they're having them out,
Speaker 1: you know, and I don't I is that something we
Speaker 1: should be aiming for. I don't know. I like the
Speaker 1: freedom of it, right, No, I think I mean it's
Speaker 1: a balance, right, I think. Yeah. Historically, you know, white
Speaker 1: men have been accustomed to to to speaking when they
Speaker 1: want to speak um, regardless of how knowledgeable they may be,
Speaker 1: and I think we all can learn from that, perhaps,
Speaker 1: But I also think it's important to acknowledge that historically
Speaker 1: they've been rewarded for it, right, and that is not
Speaker 1: the case for women, or in particular for women of color.
Speaker 1: Um that they are sort of given that presumptive you know,
Speaker 1: um credibility or power or you know, assumption that they
Speaker 1: know what the hell they're talking about. If they don't write,
Speaker 1: if they end up saying something that doesn't make any sense,
Speaker 1: people will think I probably didn't get it right. I
Speaker 1: think was it Michelle Obama? There's a quote or I
Speaker 1: think maybe it's from her book Tour, but I think
Speaker 1: there's a similar question and she said something to the
Speaker 1: effect of it was basically like, once you finally get
Speaker 1: in those rooms, you realize that, like they're not that smart. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just as smart as you are. And I think
Speaker 1: that was definitely my journey with law school. I would
Speaker 1: say it kind of I really kind of gained that,
Speaker 1: you know, real confidence, and you know, the intimidation was
Speaker 1: happening less and less when I was at my law
Speaker 1: firm practicing because I was like, you know what, I do,
Speaker 1: know what the hell I'm talking about, And I'm advising
Speaker 1: you know, major clients and they're taking my advice and
Speaker 1: it's going well, and like, you know, it's like what
Speaker 1: else is there? Right like and obviously there's some validation
Speaker 1: there and there's um, you know again back to the
Speaker 1: leadership conversation. Part of that was like having a really
Speaker 1: great boss who gave me that autonomy and gave me
Speaker 1: that confidence and you know, so there's so many pieces
Speaker 1: to this, but I do think that part of it
Speaker 1: is like, you know, recognizing what you don't know, being
Speaker 1: confident in the things that you do, and being willing,
Speaker 1: uh you know, to speak up when they're sort of
Speaker 1: that in between space of not entirely knowing, but like
Speaker 1: still having you know, something to share. But then also
Speaker 1: to your point of not you know, taking up space
Speaker 1: when you don't need to, and when somebody else who
Speaker 1: may be more more knowledgeable, should be the one speaking,
Speaker 1: especially if it's not a white man, right, because we
Speaker 1: know that most often those voices are diminished. Um, there's
Speaker 1: this whole concept of the shine theory. Yes, I was
Speaker 1: just talking about that. Yep. I was just thinking because right,
Speaker 1: because part of the solution obviously is having leaders in
Speaker 1: any context that are you know, just historically outside of power.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the point of this podcast, Like how
Speaker 1: do we how do we just call ourselves the next
Speaker 1: generation of leaders? And that's that, um. But also, yeah,
Speaker 1: part of it is about our allies along the way
Speaker 1: can help those those moments, help help us feel like
Speaker 1: we can speak up in those moments and that will
Speaker 1: be supported. It's not just like us versus the world exactly,
Speaker 1: and that there are ways that each of us can
Speaker 1: quote unquote speak up that is not for ourselves, that
Speaker 1: could be right in the service of others or in
Speaker 1: this you know, shine theory, which is developed by um
Speaker 1: I mean not too so. She's the host of the
Speaker 1: Call Your Girlfriend podcast, And the whole concept is that
Speaker 1: when you shine, I shine, and therefore, if I'm helping
Speaker 1: you to shine, I'm helping me to shine, I'm helping
Speaker 1: all of us right to shine. There's this amazing story, Um,
Speaker 1: I think it was Obama White House female staffers that
Speaker 1: opted this technique where if one woman, you know, said
Speaker 1: something in a meeting that was predominantly men, the other
Speaker 1: woman would would repeat what she said and said, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I really agree with what so and so said. Um,
Speaker 1: I think it's a really good point, and continuously like
Speaker 1: give each other credit, right because they knew that as
Speaker 1: they were building each other up, that was emphasizing it
Speaker 1: to everybody else who was listening, which you know obviously
Speaker 1: means that for one like, men could not take credit
Speaker 1: for the ideas. There's this um it's like a meme,
Speaker 1: right like you, uh, you say something and it goes
Speaker 1: a woman says something and it goes like ignored, and
Speaker 1: then the man like five minutes later repeats in it.
Speaker 1: And that's a great idea. Nobody's ever said. That's like,
Speaker 1: we know, I just said that, Can I get some backup? Right?
Speaker 1: And then and then then your allies are like, yes,
Speaker 1: preparing for this moment, and actually what you're saying is
Speaker 1: also so valuable. Whenever whenever I think of shine theory,
Speaker 1: I think about it from the point of view of
Speaker 1: the person who's who's you know, sort of sharing the
Speaker 1: scary idea into the meeting. But when you also help
Speaker 1: me remember is that it's also from the point of
Speaker 1: view of those allies, and that is a way to
Speaker 1: build up our our like you know, meeting confidence is
Speaker 1: to say that to just practice saying what Mina just
Speaker 1: said was so great. I just want to make sure
Speaker 1: everybody heard that, you know, I mean, can we just
Speaker 1: how how amazing does that make you feel when you're
Speaker 1: in a meeting, especially if you may already be feeling intimidated,
Speaker 1: when somebody you know validates you and someone says, you know,
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. I love that idea. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. I mean, we should all do that with
Speaker 1: each other anyway. I mean, we absolutely should, and that's
Speaker 1: the whole concept. And I think if you just right
Speaker 1: now put yourself in a meeting when somebody says that
Speaker 1: to you, it's like, Wow, that felt so good, thank you,
Speaker 1: And I just had this you know, burst of confidence
Speaker 1: to um, you know, continue with my idea, to continue
Speaker 1: sharing that and I think just putting yourself in the
Speaker 1: shoes of that person and knowing how good that feels like.
Speaker 1: That's just so easy, um. And part of it is
Speaker 1: you know again, it's it's um a listening technique, right,
Speaker 1: Like back to the leadership being effective, you know, right,
Speaker 1: this is something that we can all be doing, not
Speaker 1: only to lift up others, but to just like do
Speaker 1: better work. M Yeah. Absolutely, And also what a lovely
Speaker 1: gift to just be able to be the person who
Speaker 1: says I just want to shine a light on what
Speaker 1: that person said. As a unit of communication. We're often
Speaker 1: thinking about units of communication in terms of like I
Speaker 1: have to give this speech or I have to do
Speaker 1: this difficult conversation. But to think of it as the
Speaker 1: like gifts that we can give that we where we
Speaker 1: don't really have any agenda of our own except for
Speaker 1: like for the sisterhood as a whole. Exactly. It's a
Speaker 1: really nice reminder and it's also so easy. It's like
Speaker 1: the easiest thing you can possibly right. Well, so this
Speaker 1: is like a natural segue because Phenomenal Woman feels a
Speaker 1: little bit like the T shirt version of shine theory.
Speaker 1: Now that I think about it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I heard you say somewhere that what's great about these shirts?
Speaker 1: And for anybody listening who doesn't know, which is like
Speaker 1: six people in the whole world. Um, you know, you
Speaker 1: you should probably tell the story about me. But this,
Speaker 1: I know, this came out of the election. Um, and
Speaker 1: you thought it would only last for like a month
Speaker 1: or something, right, Yeah, no, that I mean, you got
Speaker 1: it right. I wanted to just jump immediately to as
Speaker 1: you said, it's like almost shine theory and the T
Speaker 1: shirt version. I love that. Which is one of the
Speaker 1: most just extraordinary amazing things about it was when we
Speaker 1: first launched the campaign, which is on International Women's Day,
Speaker 1: and as you said, it was to raise money for
Speaker 1: women's organizations, and all of these women were posting pictures
Speaker 1: in their T shirts, right, and imagine this was like
Speaker 1: the first time ever that people were like wearing the
Speaker 1: shirt and putting it out on social and the reactions
Speaker 1: were just, oh my god, it was amazing, just like
Speaker 1: the self love right to put it out there, and
Speaker 1: then all of the comments of people like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you are phenomenal, Like I'm phenomenal, We're phenomenal. It just
Speaker 1: became this like huge love fest of like you know,
Speaker 1: self affirmation unit, the affirmation all these people lifting each
Speaker 1: other up, and I think it was just it was extraordinary,
Speaker 1: you know, as you said, it's like somebody to put
Speaker 1: that out there is sending a message like I'm I'm
Speaker 1: willing to, you know, lift myself up and have the
Speaker 1: confidence to put this out in the world. And it
Speaker 1: was clearly inspiring that in other people, not only to
Speaker 1: build up that person and say like, fun, yeah, you
Speaker 1: are phenomenal, but also like wait a second, I want
Speaker 1: to wear that shirt because I'm phenomenal too. And you know,
Speaker 1: like people would send me photos where they, you know,
Speaker 1: were like at their local coffee shop and they ran
Speaker 1: into a woman who they didn't know who's like wearing
Speaker 1: the T shirt and then you know, they take a
Speaker 1: photo and send it to me and would think that
Speaker 1: they were best friends. But it becomes this little you know,
Speaker 1: like club of just like self love and treaty love,
Speaker 1: where you know, you see people and you're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, right, we're all phenomenal. While part of the
Speaker 1: same God that's so gorgeous, were part of the same tribe. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. You said once that it
Speaker 1: makes it easy for women to make a powerful statement.
Speaker 1: And I think that we know about the powerful statement
Speaker 1: we know about women, but the making it easy part
Speaker 1: cannot cannot be overstated. Right. We just need these like gentle,
Speaker 1: gentle ways that we can work on speaking up for
Speaker 1: ourselves totally. And it's you know, it's about meeting people
Speaker 1: where they are, and that it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: this big leap of you know, whatever is that thing
Speaker 1: that intimidates you, Right, it can be something so small
Speaker 1: and uh nevertheless meaningful. And some of the most inspiring
Speaker 1: moments for me have been, um, women talking about it
Speaker 1: like it's armor, right, that they derive power and strength
Speaker 1: from it, ranging from wearing it to meetings. Right that
Speaker 1: we're like a big important meeting where they were you know,
Speaker 1: giving a presentation or otherwise UM felt sort of you know,
Speaker 1: intimidated and wanted to go in with confidence. I've had
Speaker 1: other women you know, send me photos when they wore it, um,
Speaker 1: while they were giving birth, when they were going into labor, right, Um,
Speaker 1: and like this idea that it's almost this you know,
Speaker 1: like you derive superpowers from it. It's like this cape
Speaker 1: or this you know armor. I just love that. And
Speaker 1: I think part of it too, you know, around this
Speaker 1: conversation around sort of your individual voice and speaking up
Speaker 1: and what that means for each person is that is
Speaker 1: much that is universal, right, and that women are phenomenal,
Speaker 1: and um, we we deserve everything in the world and
Speaker 1: to speak up and and to be heard. But it
Speaker 1: also has such unique meeting for individual people on any
Speaker 1: given day. Right. So one day it made me have
Speaker 1: the phenomenal mother shirt and you feel like you've been
Speaker 1: a shitty mom all week and you just need to
Speaker 1: put that on to remind yourself, Right, I have that one.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what you're talking, but you know,
Speaker 1: there's others that I had a deadline to meet and
Speaker 1: I had to just like jam and you know, get
Speaker 1: this done and did an all nighter and I wore
Speaker 1: my fucking shirt and I did it right, and I
Speaker 1: feel so good and I just had to put it
Speaker 1: on because I have to accomplish this a big thing.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's just it's so small, um, and but
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really beautiful and meaningful. What's beautiful What
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say is that it's outward and inward. Yes. Yes,
Speaker 1: I came across when I was when I was thinking
Speaker 1: about talking with you, I was rereading Presence, the Amy
Speaker 1: Cutty book, and she said this line that and you
Speaker 1: think of this, She said, sometimes there's a during life,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes there's a process that involves fitting our
Speaker 1: true self to the situation or role that we're in
Speaker 1: by choosing which core values and traits to render visible.
Speaker 1: I love that, right, It's such an the whole idea,
Speaker 1: I mean what partly what she's saying is that we
Speaker 1: do have to sort of like you know, fit ourselves
Speaker 1: into these weird situations and not bring parts of ourselves
Speaker 1: into the room that would be you know, whatever taken wrong.
Speaker 1: And that's a whole thing and there's so much intersectionality
Speaker 1: to be discussed there. But also when we're talking about
Speaker 1: what our core values are with the things we don't
Speaker 1: want to leave behind our when we go into those rights,
Speaker 1: the idea of how we render that visible, you know,
Speaker 1: literally visible by wearing it on a shirt is also
Speaker 1: just a reminder of like, yeah, and I can bring
Speaker 1: some of that with me. I can bring the fact
Speaker 1: that I'm a mother into this, you know, professional context,
Speaker 1: and not apologize for normalize it. In fact, you know,
Speaker 1: I can bring you know, some aspect of my culture
Speaker 1: that is not what the dominant culture is, and rather
Speaker 1: than apologizing it for it, knowing that it's you know whatever,
Speaker 1: it's a strength. It's one of the reasons I was
Speaker 1: asked into this room. Exactly. Yeah. I think it makes
Speaker 1: me think almost of like there's a difference between assimilating
Speaker 1: and adapting, and I think that to me, I feel
Speaker 1: like adapting when we talk about adopting to a culture
Speaker 1: or I just feels like there's more intentionality and choice
Speaker 1: to decide which pieces you want to make more visible
Speaker 1: while you know, being effective, right, Whereas I feel like
Speaker 1: that's beautiful and it also ties in with what you're
Speaker 1: talking about earlier about leadership in in a really specific way. Exactly. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right
Speaker 1: back after this. Okay, so we're back below. Um, I
Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about this totally one
Speaker 1: of the kind of experience that you had growing up
Speaker 1: with the grandma you had and the mom had and
Speaker 1: the aunt you have. I mean, I guess I'm wondering
Speaker 1: like what you observed in how they communicated in different contexts.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's some of the stuff that we've been
Speaker 1: talking about, but when you were sort of first aware
Speaker 1: of and what you've taken with you in terms of
Speaker 1: this sort of you know, specifically moving through private and
Speaker 1: public spheres and also this legal versus not because all
Speaker 1: of you guys have had this experience and it really
Speaker 1: does something to someone, right in a not bad way,
Speaker 1: but it is these like you're really aware I think
Speaker 1: of modes. You know. It's funny, I don't think I
Speaker 1: became aware of it now that you're talking about it. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think I became aware of it until I
Speaker 1: myself was in a corporate context, in part because like
Speaker 1: nobody else in my family ever had been really in
Speaker 1: corporate context, right, Like my grandmother was a researcher and scientists.
Speaker 1: My you know, my aunt was um, you know, in
Speaker 1: public service, right, and was in politics. My mom was
Speaker 1: also a public interest lawyer. Right. And So now that
Speaker 1: I'm kind of thinking back to like, what did I
Speaker 1: see in terms of different modes? I frankly, I feel
Speaker 1: like the I really saw, for the most part, one mode,
Speaker 1: which was more of the kind of like activist you know,
Speaker 1: speak up, shout, you know, speak your mind, fight the power,
Speaker 1: right like bang down the door. I mean for sure,
Speaker 1: from my my mom and my grandma. I guess I
Speaker 1: suppose in some ways in that formulation, you know, I
Speaker 1: saw through Kamala, my aunt, UM, you know, doing it
Speaker 1: more from the inside. But nevertheless, you know, she was
Speaker 1: she chose to do the work that she did from
Speaker 1: the perspective of you know, fighting for communities UM that
Speaker 1: don't often get you know, act sus to those institutions
Speaker 1: to be heard or to be you know protected, which
Speaker 1: is to say that you know, it was about criminal
Speaker 1: justice reform and racial justice, um, just as it was
Speaker 1: from my mom. They were just doing it sort of
Speaker 1: from two different, uh spaces. But nevertheless, I felt like
Speaker 1: for all of them it was still very strong. But
Speaker 1: I think when you're talking about simply you know, using
Speaker 1: your voice, it was really kind of frankly, this one
Speaker 1: mode of being strong and powerful and speaking up and
Speaker 1: not being afraid to do that. Whereas I think this
Speaker 1: you know, kind of corporate stuff or even you know,
Speaker 1: there's all this stuff around like code switching. I don't
Speaker 1: think that I really appreciated that until I was experiencing
Speaker 1: it myself. You mentioned code switching. Is it something that
Speaker 1: you think about? Yeah? Absolutely, I think that when it
Speaker 1: comes to you know, your own culture and personal you know,
Speaker 1: culture and norms that may be different from you know,
Speaker 1: the space that you're in, which is more likely than
Speaker 1: not going to be you know, predominantly white space. Especially
Speaker 1: we're talking about corporate and masculine. Let's just throw it
Speaker 1: all in, you know, absolutely, Yeah, I mean, you're you're
Speaker 1: going to have to do that um or or I
Speaker 1: should put another way. I mean, this whole conversation is
Speaker 1: about I guess I suppose like choosing to do that
Speaker 1: or or not. Well. Part of the reason that I'm
Speaker 1: always talking about how to use your voice to get
Speaker 1: what you want, you know, I'm I'm using that phrase
Speaker 1: deliberately because it's really not about there being a right
Speaker 1: and a wrong way, or like a sort of morally
Speaker 1: better or morally worse way. It really is practical, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would like us to all feel like
Speaker 1: we live in a world where we can bring whatever
Speaker 1: feels culturally honest to us into the space. But you know,
Speaker 1: we don't always live in that world, and maybe it's
Speaker 1: our opportunity or responsibility to change the spaces that we're
Speaker 1: in once we have a little power, but it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily our responsibility on our way up. It's risky. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that that's the part that is really hard,
Speaker 1: That people feel that they need to hide certain parts
Speaker 1: of themselves or speak in a way that is not
Speaker 1: natural for them or what have you, in order to succeed,
Speaker 1: and there's fear and insecurity attached to it. Well, that's
Speaker 1: what I mean that that they should have the responsibility
Speaker 1: lifted if it's about safety or about you know, literally
Speaker 1: your job is on the line. You are not the
Speaker 1: person who needs to be, you know, making a political
Speaker 1: statement about this. My version of this, which is totally
Speaker 1: like a to C, but it's a it's an analogy
Speaker 1: that it feels right to me is when I'm working
Speaker 1: on a TV show and I'm surrounded by like, no
Speaker 1: people who have children, I should say, no women of
Speaker 1: childbearing years, because twelve hour days on a TV show
Speaker 1: you kind of can't unless you have like a really
Speaker 1: really wild set of you know, childcare solutions exactly. And
Speaker 1: so then there's me and you know, often there's like
Speaker 1: women who are younger than me who don't have kids yet,
Speaker 1: who don't know how they possibly could, and also still
Speaker 1: work in this industry, you know. And so in that context,
Speaker 1: when I do feel like I do have a corner
Speaker 1: of power that I can stand in, then I fucking
Speaker 1: love to talk about my kid, And not because I'm
Speaker 1: talking about it because like, oh my god, I'm not mom,
Speaker 1: but because I'm normalizing that ship. Exactly. It's my responsibility
Speaker 1: in a way that feels satisfying, not in a way
Speaker 1: that feels heavy, you know, right, right, right right, And
Speaker 1: as you said that, it feels safe, and it's not
Speaker 1: going to affect my job. It's only going to affect
Speaker 1: the next generation and how they how they think about
Speaker 1: their own you know, freedom. But yeah, that's not the
Speaker 1: same in every context. And will I necessarily bring my
Speaker 1: kid up in a job interview, and I know it's
Speaker 1: some like, you know, older guy who's going to be
Speaker 1: judging me for mentioning my kid because it's gonna have
Speaker 1: some implication for whether or not I would be focused
Speaker 1: on my job. No, it is my responsibility to take
Speaker 1: care of myself in that context, you know, right, which
Speaker 1: is sort of like the sad truth right. I think
Speaker 1: we're all working towards a world in which we don't
Speaker 1: have to do that, but it is the reality. It's
Speaker 1: sort of you know, what we aspire to versus like
Speaker 1: what we currently have to deal with and just be
Speaker 1: real about. Yeah. Yeah, I had this really interesting experience.
Speaker 1: It was about a year ago. I was interviewing John Thompson,
Speaker 1: who was at you know, IBM Forever and I believe
Speaker 1: was uh like vice president they're right, like very high up,
Speaker 1: and Stacy Brown Philpott who's the CEO of task Rabbit,
Speaker 1: and Stacy was talking about how John was, you know,
Speaker 1: an inspiration for her. He was a model for her
Speaker 1: in terms of what she like the next generation of
Speaker 1: what she wanted to achieve in her career. And having
Speaker 1: them both on stage talking about you know, things like
Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion and how do you show up in
Speaker 1: the workplace as your authentic self was really quite a
Speaker 1: moment for me where John said, you know, he showed
Speaker 1: up at IBM with his with his frow and his jeans,
Speaker 1: and everybody there was you know, clean cut, and they
Speaker 1: had suits in briefcases, and so he cut his frow
Speaker 1: and he put on a suit, and I was just
Speaker 1: sitting there like, oh my god, like wow, but of
Speaker 1: course he did, right, Like, of course he did. And
Speaker 1: Stacy's sitting on the stage with you know, Dreads, right
Speaker 1: and she's the CEO of you know, a major company,
Speaker 1: and it was just this amazing kind of moment of recognizing,
Speaker 1: you know, how how far we've come in some ways
Speaker 1: that Stacy is now able to feel confident in wearing
Speaker 1: you know, her natural hair to work in a way
Speaker 1: that John Thompson was not. But just that there's sort
Speaker 1: of still reality and what he experienced, right, which is
Speaker 1: and I'm sure Stacy experiences it to which that you know,
Speaker 1: she can show up with her natural hair. But I'm
Speaker 1: sure that's not without a cost in some instances for her.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's not. It's certainly not without thought of,
Speaker 1: you know, how it might be received. But she made
Speaker 1: that choice in and doing so makes it obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: she's setting that tone right from leadership down that that
Speaker 1: is something that is accepted and celebrated. I mean, my god,
Speaker 1: we like, let's be clear. You know, in California, we
Speaker 1: just passed a law that text you know, natural error
Speaker 1: from discrimination in the workplace, and the point is that
Speaker 1: we needed a law because there was real discrimination and
Speaker 1: harm that was happening for people in the workplace. And
Speaker 1: when we're in a position of power, when we're able
Speaker 1: to do the hiring or you know, lead a team,
Speaker 1: one of the things we can think about is the
Speaker 1: ways that we can sort of loosen some of those
Speaker 1: you know, or not even necessarily loosened, but just questions
Speaker 1: some of the assumptions that have been handed down to
Speaker 1: us from that older generation that's aging out right and
Speaker 1: and model it yourself right. I think that that is key,
Speaker 1: is that it does feel out and taken, that you're
Speaker 1: actually doing it versus just saying it right. That's that's
Speaker 1: when it really comes down to, like are you actually
Speaker 1: modeling the culture that you're you know, promoting. So, speaking
Speaker 1: of modeling, you have a kid's book coming out, and
Speaker 1: I want to talk about how tell me about this book.
Speaker 1: It's not out yet, it's not out yet, it's coming
Speaker 1: out very soon. It's gonna come out on June two.
Speaker 1: We have a whole pre order campaign right now that's
Speaker 1: really about supporting local bookstores, which was, as we know,
Speaker 1: have been hit pretty hard by this public health crisis.
Speaker 1: And so I'm really proud that we have a whole
Speaker 1: campaign around supporting local bookstores. But yeah, you know, it's
Speaker 1: the whole book is really about everything we're talking about, right,
Speaker 1: It's it's this family I grew up in. It's these
Speaker 1: stories that I heard as a kid about my mom
Speaker 1: and aunt um when they were children, and it's just
Speaker 1: that that they, you know, at at a young age,
Speaker 1: were taught and you know, demonstrated this uh strength and
Speaker 1: speaking up in confidence and in deciding to you know,
Speaker 1: have big, bold ideas and to and to go for
Speaker 1: them and to figure out, you know, how do you
Speaker 1: lean on your community, how do you come together and
Speaker 1: draw strength and numbers to make your voice even more
Speaker 1: powerful when people tell you that you're too small um
Speaker 1: or that you know it can't be done right. It's
Speaker 1: basically everything is shyant theory is what you're saying. Everything
Speaker 1: it all goes back to that. But it's really I
Speaker 1: think what I what has been so fun and meaningful
Speaker 1: is that obviously it's something that is special, you know,
Speaker 1: as I think about raising my own girls in the
Speaker 1: same way and sharing that experience with them of growing
Speaker 1: up in the household that I did, but sharing it
Speaker 1: with people all around the world and little girls around
Speaker 1: the world. Well, I should actually say a little girl's
Speaker 1: only guys, it's for it's for all kids, right, But
Speaker 1: whose stories we sent our matters because you know, exactly
Speaker 1: exactly we know that girls of color and black children
Speaker 1: especially are still woefully underrepresented on bookshelves, and we have
Speaker 1: a lot more work to do there um in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, again representation, whose voices are are elevated, who
Speaker 1: do we listen to? And also, you know, as somebody
Speaker 1: who's raising a white boy, which I think about very seriously,
Speaker 1: I really want to make it clear that he can
Speaker 1: work that muscle every day, that empathy muscle of seeing
Speaker 1: a story about someone who doesn't look like him and
Speaker 1: thinking I get that. I get that absolutely well. We
Speaker 1: also know, you know that when we talk about things
Speaker 1: like you know, cultural norms around sexual harassment and do
Speaker 1: we do we treat girls and women is fully formed
Speaker 1: humans who are capable of saying yes and no, Like
Speaker 1: this is basic stuff, but it starts so young and
Speaker 1: because of a lot of the cultural you know, harmful
Speaker 1: social norms that we have you know, so far kind
Speaker 1: of instilled within kids, like that's what it turns into
Speaker 1: and you can catch that stuff early. You can you
Speaker 1: can really do good early on if you're intentional about it,
Speaker 1: and counteract some of the stuff that we know happens
Speaker 1: later on. Um, which is very basic. Totally. It feels
Speaker 1: in my home, especially like now that my home is
Speaker 1: my entire life, like it's a form of activism when
Speaker 1: you know, we're getting these horrible, horrible messages from from
Speaker 1: you know, from Washington, from the outside, from the people
Speaker 1: that think that they're in power, and just to be
Speaker 1: able to say, like, we're changing the story right now,
Speaker 1: right here tonight at bedtime, Yes, you know exactly, And
Speaker 1: it's interesting, yeah, for you to say we're changing the story.
Speaker 1: I mean, part of what inspired me to do the
Speaker 1: book is that I spent a lot of time as
Speaker 1: a new mom, my first kid, literally changing the story,
Speaker 1: changing he to her, coloring the skin in the character's breath,
Speaker 1: you know, and I sort of you know, when you
Speaker 1: talk about activism, part of it is just deciding like
Speaker 1: I'm going to go go out there and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go do it. And that's what I did. I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to write the damn book myself because I'm
Speaker 1: not seeing it, and I want my girls to have that,
Speaker 1: you know, and in that way too, I think that
Speaker 1: there's so much of what what it's about that again
Speaker 1: is basic, but that really adults can take away I
Speaker 1: think big lessons from that too. Right. I've spent the
Speaker 1: last three years through Phenomenal talking to many adult women
Speaker 1: who are saying, you know, what can I do? How
Speaker 1: do I show up? How do I speak up right?
Speaker 1: How do I use my voice in a way that
Speaker 1: is meaningful and impactful? And it really comes down to
Speaker 1: basic stuff, um that you know. I don't want to
Speaker 1: downplay how hard it can be, right, but if you're
Speaker 1: if you're kind of actively pursuing it and thinking about it,
Speaker 1: you can do it yourself. You can read your kids
Speaker 1: that way, and it can be something that just becomes
Speaker 1: second nature. Right, And that is absolutely how I was
Speaker 1: raised and something I wanted to share with other people. Completely.
Speaker 1: It's completely and I think you're right. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: can feel really intimidating when people say, like, you know,
Speaker 1: speak up whatever, stand up for yourself. But if you're
Speaker 1: thinking about like the incremental steps, if you're thinking about
Speaker 1: like I can change the pronoun for my kid or
Speaker 1: then or you know what we're talking about earlier, like
Speaker 1: from the shine theory, from the point of view of
Speaker 1: the person who's doing that, Like, I just want to
Speaker 1: point out what me and It just said. You know,
Speaker 1: those are these like little ways that we can like
Speaker 1: literally make our bodies get used to what's standing up
Speaker 1: for ourselves. Feels like exactly. Okay, last question before the break.
Speaker 1: Any comments people have made about your voice that you
Speaker 1: wish you could unhear but you can't. We've had a
Speaker 1: lot of conversation about the corporate context and how much
Speaker 1: it can harm all of us. But I think there's
Speaker 1: also um points during that journey that I can uh
Speaker 1: point to you that I felt like it wasn't necessarily
Speaker 1: that I um that I was being like silenced, but
Speaker 1: there were moments where I felt like I was pushed
Speaker 1: to question my voice or change my voice. And in particular,
Speaker 1: there was a tech company that I was working at
Speaker 1: in one of my male coworkers said, you know, like
Speaker 1: you're very direct and that can be off putting to people,
Speaker 1: and you know, right, like, I feel like we've all
Speaker 1: heard this before right at this point, but the kicker
Speaker 1: was he said, you know, I would recommend that you
Speaker 1: put more exclamation points and emojis in your communications to
Speaker 1: make people feel more comfortable. And I was just like,
Speaker 1: are you fucking kidding me? Like you want me to
Speaker 1: add more exclamation Like did you seriously to say that
Speaker 1: to me? And my first thought was, you know, wow,
Speaker 1: would he say that to a guy? Right? But you
Speaker 1: know it was also back to kind of the original conversation.
Speaker 1: It was a moment of for me learning to adapt
Speaker 1: to different you know, work environments. Did I put more
Speaker 1: exclamation points in my communications like get out of here?
Speaker 1: But you know, there were other ways that I thought
Speaker 1: about quote unquote like softening right, because it was it
Speaker 1: was clearly a place where that was valued and that
Speaker 1: was needed. And so I think the lesson for me
Speaker 1: is being able to understand when somebody's like bullshit and
Speaker 1: literally trying to silence you, versus being able to draw
Speaker 1: out you know what could be constructive like feedback. Right.
Speaker 1: It's the email equivalent of smile more. Oh, absolutely, no question.
Speaker 1: I mean like literally used literally use like smiley face emojis?
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? I mean? It's also it's also
Speaker 1: what a what a what a story? To underline the
Speaker 1: fact that like you know, in many ways this feels
Speaker 1: like a losing battle because for as many people as
Speaker 1: you know, will be listening to that and and see
Speaker 1: themselves in that situation, there's all the people who have
Speaker 1: been made fun of for the exclamation points in the
Speaker 1: emoji because it's it's quote unquote undermine exactly. And in particular,
Speaker 1: you know, you hear women talk about that. That makes
Speaker 1: people think that they're not professional. Like it's just it's
Speaker 1: like lose, lose, right, like you can't when it's also
Speaker 1: like the vocal equivalent. Is this this idea of like
Speaker 1: should you lower your voice in order to be taken
Speaker 1: seriously like pitch wise, you know which I mean. There's
Speaker 1: like this classic you know, Margaret Thatcher in the seventies
Speaker 1: was went to us, you know, like a theater coach
Speaker 1: who who taught her to speak lower, and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden it worked and she ran all of England,
Speaker 1: you know, and then and then and then the you know,
Speaker 1: other side of it is that a lot of us
Speaker 1: have learned how to do some version of talking higher
Speaker 1: or up speak or whatever in order to get what
Speaker 1: we want in other contexts where we can all read
Speaker 1: the room and tell that like a little bit of unintimidating,
Speaker 1: don't worry, I'm fine, is going to get us what
Speaker 1: we want more. And you know, there are benefits to
Speaker 1: both their drawbacks. But it's like we have so many
Speaker 1: more tools at our disposal then we sometimes think we do.
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously there's just a lot of emotional
Speaker 1: ship wrapped up in that. But if we can you know,
Speaker 1: what you said about finding the aspect of it that's
Speaker 1: constructive is probably really useful for people. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: obviously we can just like shout sexism, or we can
Speaker 1: say every single one of us needs to adapt to
Speaker 1: every room we're in if we want to, you know,
Speaker 1: get what we can the most out of that room,
Speaker 1: right exactly, And it's deciding. I mean that back to
Speaker 1: that quote you gave at the beginning, or right at
Speaker 1: the beginning, you know what parts you want to make visible,
Speaker 1: right and what's not negotiable. I mean that's also what
Speaker 1: we're talking about, exactly exactly exactly, call call call the
Speaker 1: bullshit when you see it and decide, you know what
Speaker 1: you're going to take from it to better yourself so
Speaker 1: that you are more effective, not so that other people
Speaker 1: are more accepting of you because of their own insecurities
Speaker 1: or issues or bias, c s or whatever. Yeah, like,
Speaker 1: are you just enabling their ship or are you actually
Speaker 1: helping yourself and helping them? And then it's a team
Speaker 1: effort and you can convince yourself of that aspect of it,
Speaker 1: and then you know what, when you have a little
Speaker 1: bit more power, loosen it a little exactly is all
Speaker 1: the stuff? Is all the real stuff. And we're not
Speaker 1: even talking about how to like actually breaks the class ceiling,
Speaker 1: but we also are we actually as Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: like and also like like ourselves at the end of
Speaker 1: the day and like, Okay, we're gonna take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then we're gonna come back and find out
Speaker 1: whose voice you've brought in for us to listen to. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're back, So, Mina, who have you brought in for us?
Speaker 1: I have brought in She's sitting right here next to me,
Speaker 1: just kidding. I wish social distancing, social distancing in my dreams.
Speaker 1: Um Alicia Garza, who is a dear friend of mine.
Speaker 1: She's the co founder of Black Lives Matter and is
Speaker 1: the founder of Black Futures Lab, And it's just one
Speaker 1: of the most extraordinary people. I know. Yes, I'm so
Speaker 1: glad you brought her in. I've been just like relishing,
Speaker 1: going back and listening to a bunch of her stuff.
Speaker 1: I pulled a little a little something here, Okay, here's Alicia.
Speaker 1: I simultaneously feel grateful and exhausted. Um and tender. Tender
Speaker 1: is the word I would use. Um, But I'm very
Speaker 1: fortunate to have squad that has my back and um.
Speaker 1: One of the blessings of having been an organizer for
Speaker 1: almost twenty years is that I am never allowed to
Speaker 1: forget where I come from ever ever. Ah Me, She's
Speaker 1: such She's such a lesson in how to be in
Speaker 1: the middle of your thoughts in front of a crowd.
Speaker 1: Exactly what she said is sort of who I mean.
Speaker 1: It's she's like, it's she's tender. She there's something so
Speaker 1: calming about her and almost there's like this teacher quality
Speaker 1: to her sometimes right, like a patient kind almost like
Speaker 1: protective teacher who has your back, but who's also brilliant.
Speaker 1: And it's just like you just want them to keep
Speaker 1: talking at you, right, and just like keep talking totally.
Speaker 1: There's this moment she says at the end that's like right,
Speaker 1: and she does it a lot in this whole thing
Speaker 1: where it's like it's a it's a it's a real
Speaker 1: check in with this room full of hundreds of people.
Speaker 1: This is a this is at a University of Chicago, um, like,
Speaker 1: you know whatever, some academic uh discussion, and it's an
Speaker 1: answer to a question from the audience. But she's like
Speaker 1: whenever she says that, right, she's not seating the floor,
Speaker 1: she's not saying I'm done. She's just like she's so
Speaker 1: she's so a new you know, you know her personally,
Speaker 1: it sounds like this is this is just I mean,
Speaker 1: I can tell, but it sounds like this is real.
Speaker 1: But she's just like so in possession of herself absolutely
Speaker 1: and being able to do that in front of an audience,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, as she says it in that
Speaker 1: little clip, which is partly why I like that clip,
Speaker 1: the sort of lifelong community organizing, you know, I get
Speaker 1: the impression, and it's beautiful to see her in front
Speaker 1: of a crowd, not just in a you know, commencement
Speaker 1: address or a rally type of context, but something like this.
Speaker 1: It's sort of gentler. Uh, She's sort of like it's
Speaker 1: the same thing of I'm me and you're you, but
Speaker 1: actually we're us that I think all of us can
Speaker 1: learn from. Yeah, it's just sort of like total exactly acceptance,
Speaker 1: and you just feel like wrapped in a blanket when
Speaker 1: she talks. There's a there's an inclusivity, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1: She's also like talking about really tough things and not
Speaker 1: necessarily saying like, you know, we're all the same, but
Speaker 1: there's a place from us and a lightness because of
Speaker 1: that inclusivity. I feel like, because she's saying, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean exactly, and she really draws you in.
Speaker 1: Oh it's I came across the Martin Luther King quote
Speaker 1: recently that made me think of her. He said, a
Speaker 1: genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus, but a
Speaker 1: molder of consensus. Absolutely. Yeah, Like people don't even know
Speaker 1: that they're being kind of drawn into I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's right. That doesn't that sounds doesn't sound right,
Speaker 1: that sounds manipulative. But like, you know, it's like it's
Speaker 1: like before you know it, you're like, well, obviously what
Speaker 1: she said makes sense, right, obviously, right, right, Well, And
Speaker 1: there's it's work, it's your molding. It's a process, right,
Speaker 1: it's not just like talking at people from the audience.
Speaker 1: It feels like that exactly right, right. And also I
Speaker 1: will say, you know, partly what she's talking about, but
Speaker 1: partly literally her voice in that in that clip I
Speaker 1: pick sounds really tired, you know. But I also think
Speaker 1: that sometimes we think that we have to um like this,
Speaker 1: this perfect polished voice, and she's a fantastic example that
Speaker 1: like polish is not the thing man, you know, absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard doing the work she's doing is hard, being
Speaker 1: that connected, being that engaged, not not into it. But
Speaker 1: it costs, as you said, it costs something. Yeah, there's labor,
Speaker 1: emotional labor. Yeah, right, there's something. So you know that
Speaker 1: thing we all know, but we have to sort of
Speaker 1: figure out how to do of vulnerable actually is powerful.
Speaker 1: She's really like doing with her actual voice exactly. And
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think we're all of us
Speaker 1: are getting probably more comfortable with that now in terms
Speaker 1: of this moment that we're in right something, this crisis,
Speaker 1: this emergency, and everybody is experiencing something in some way,
Speaker 1: and UM to pretend otherwise is you know, it's going
Speaker 1: to be very obviously you're pretending. Yeah, exactly, and it's
Speaker 1: just not gonna you know, resonate with people. That's right,
Speaker 1: That's right, And thank you for mentioning that, because it's
Speaker 1: you know, obviously present for all of us right now
Speaker 1: for this conversation, for everything, you know, for trying to
Speaker 1: keep our kids on the other side of the door,
Speaker 1: you know, for whatever exactly the little things, um that
Speaker 1: we have to do, like hiding in our own houses. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really think that honesty, especially when it comes to
Speaker 1: our vulnerability or however we want to however we want
Speaker 1: to think about the stuff that's that's feeling hard for us,
Speaker 1: is a real strength right now because it is a connector.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, to to to think, to act
Speaker 1: otherwise is disconnecting in this time when like we all
Speaker 1: just we all just near like so learning for connection,
Speaker 1: whether it's because people are living you know, at home alone,
Speaker 1: or whether we're just trying to say, like high high
Speaker 1: world out there, are you feeling what I'm feeling, And
Speaker 1: the fact that we can, like all in the entire
Speaker 1: world say yes is such a moment we should ride
Speaker 1: and not try to fight, you know, right, Yeah, absolutely, Well,
Speaker 1: on that note, thanks for writing writing writing it with me,
Speaker 1: I mean this is such a delight. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: I love that you joined me in the virtual space
Speaker 1: that is the podcast. Thank you to Mina for joining me.
Speaker 1: You can find out more about her in the show
Speaker 1: notes or on our website Permission to Speak pod dot com.
Speaker 1: Please also go to the site if you have any
Speaker 1: awesome quotes or any questions you want to submit for
Speaker 1: my next mail dig episode. What is getting in the
Speaker 1: way of your voice? I always want to know? Also
Speaker 1: feel free to send d M s or voicemail moos
Speaker 1: to our Instagram at Permission to Speak Pod, where we're
Speaker 1: posting a bunch and join the community. Thanks as well
Speaker 1: to Sophie Lichterman and the team at I Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: my family and cohort and all of you. We're recording
Speaker 1: this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land
Speaker 1: that used to belong to the Tongva indigenous tribe, and
Speaker 1: you can visit us D A C dot us to
Speaker 1: learn more about honoring native land. Permission to Speak is
Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radio and Double Vision Executive
Speaker 1: produced by Katherine Burt Canton and Mark ten For more
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