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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've

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Speaker 1: never told you. We have a special update Classic today

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Speaker 1: because I am joined by my friend Samantha. Hello, Samantha's

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Speaker 1: helping me out for this one. Um, as listeners, I

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Speaker 1: hope you know. A couple of weeks ago, I had

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Speaker 1: my friends saw him on the show to do an

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Speaker 1: episode all about Asian American identity, and as part of

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Speaker 1: that episode, we talked about the stereotypes around Madama, Butterfly

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Speaker 1: and Missagan and um, all those stereotypes, all those works

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Speaker 1: of art that helped make the stereotype of kind of

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Speaker 1: the dainty Asian doll, like the submissive Asian doll, and

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Speaker 1: it helped make this Asian fetish a thing. And that

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Speaker 1: is something you and I have talked about. For Samantha,

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Speaker 1: because you are also Asian and have run into exactly

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Speaker 1: so I am Korean, and of course every and all

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Speaker 1: most first question is where are you? And remember it's

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Speaker 1: what are you in? Which I'm like what, and like no,

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Speaker 1: where are you from? And because I'm also adopted, I'll

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Speaker 1: make the say Ella j Georgia and they're like no,

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Speaker 1: but where your parents from? Which is even better because

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Speaker 1: I'm like they're also from La j Georgia, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: where were you originally? What's your ethnicity? Which ends up

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Speaker 1: being like a four part conversation just trying to mess

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Speaker 1: with them. But in the dating world, in the Asian

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Speaker 1: fetish world, I've also been called a stay down the

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Speaker 1: street China girl, um, Japanese girl, hey you um. Growing up,

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Speaker 1: I was called China doll. Um. I've been called the

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Speaker 1: yellow persuasion yes, yell, and then they'll say something about

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Speaker 1: that along those lines as a way of endearing endearment,

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Speaker 1: I guess um, which always like I don't really want

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Speaker 1: to ever be called yellow, so thanks so um. I

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Speaker 1: know I've gotten weird requests to dress up as things.

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Speaker 1: I've also gotten the request to be like a dominatux

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Speaker 1: and I think that has something to do with like

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Speaker 1: the tiger mom ideas right, the dragon lady for sure um,

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Speaker 1: as well as I've gotten all of the I think

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Speaker 1: Asian girls are hot. I had one guy who actually

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Speaker 1: was Asian as well, telling me that he's always tried

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Speaker 1: to go after Asian girls, but they don't like him.

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Speaker 1: They only like white girl white boys. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: that was his introduction to me by the way online

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Speaker 1: day and I was like, yeah, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: respond to that. Not sure how they only like white

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Speaker 1: boys like Asian girls only like white that's what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, um, my day, white boys. But it's

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Speaker 1: not because I only like white boys, because it was

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Speaker 1: just a weird phenomenon. Um. I also, yeah, I get

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Speaker 1: the request of being tied up and being the slave. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, Asian fetishes that happens a lot increase me

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Speaker 1: out and it does prevent me from dating a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. Oh yeah, I can see that. I think

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Speaker 1: that is completely Yeah, I've been hearing your stories about

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Speaker 1: this for a while, and then because you and I

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Speaker 1: also talked about the fact that I don't go to

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Speaker 1: things like dragon Con because of the anime world essentially,

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Speaker 1: and not that that's all that dragon Con is, but

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Speaker 1: that's what you know, I think of, as well as

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Speaker 1: the fact, like I stopped listening to Weezer because of

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Speaker 1: his obsession. This is really kind of creepy when you

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Speaker 1: start thinking about what he's referencing. Pinkerton from miss It

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Speaker 1: was just bad. And I was like, I don't, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't want I don't want to be recognized. Was

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Speaker 1: this right? I don't know, people have types and such,

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Speaker 1: but it's just a whole different level of obsession. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we we had a whole discussion about it, and

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Speaker 1: so I thought, UM, to bring you on for this

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Speaker 1: this update would be would be prudent, would be a

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Speaker 1: good thing because in that episode that I talked about

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Speaker 1: with Son and we we touched on these things, but

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Speaker 1: we didn't really get to go into them too much.

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Speaker 1: So in this classic episode, UM, you'll get to learn

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Speaker 1: more about the Hollywood stereotyping of Asian women. Right, so enjoy.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff MOM Never Told You from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline we on Stuff I

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Speaker 1: Never Told You have talked about the spicy Latina stereotype,

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Speaker 1: the pocon to his princess Native American women stereotype, exoticizing

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Speaker 1: women of color, and now today we're going to dig

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Speaker 1: into stereotypes about Asian women and particularly East Asian women. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is, there's there's not just unfortunately one

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Speaker 1: Asian lady stereotype to zero in on for this episode,

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Speaker 1: but the ones that we are going to dive into

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Speaker 1: should be pretty familiar to a lot of our listeners.

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Speaker 1: The idea of the dainty, submissive geisha or the diminutive

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Speaker 1: China doll, the angry sexualized dragon lady, or the overbearing

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Speaker 1: tiger mom. So all of these your type should be

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Speaker 1: pretty familiar to our listeners. We've touched on a couple

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Speaker 1: of them in the podcast before, but we're really going

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Speaker 1: to zero in on the fetishization of East Asian women. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the phrase it comes up a lot to talk

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Speaker 1: about that kind of fetishization, particularly within American culture, with

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Speaker 1: the idea of white men especially being particularly drawn to

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Speaker 1: East Asian women, is the whole yellow fever so called phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: And I realized that that is not the nicest way

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Speaker 1: to put it. It's an uncomfortable phrase to even say

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, Caroline, but that is I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: what it's called. For better or for worse. I mean

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Speaker 1: it gets at the slur and sort of the creating

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Speaker 1: a monolith out of all of these women. It's the

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Speaker 1: same thing as exotic sizing women of color. It's just

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Speaker 1: a different brand of that. And that exoticization of non

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Speaker 1: white populations is definitely nothing new and in terms of

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Speaker 1: the topic at hand today, well, we've been doing it

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Speaker 1: since about the time of Marco Polo. Yeah, I mean essentially,

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Speaker 1: once there was Western contact with the Far East, the

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Speaker 1: orient started to develop that that mystical quality, and then

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Speaker 1: all of this gendering started to happen, not only of

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Speaker 1: obviously like the women and men and like drawing you know,

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Speaker 1: stereotypes about the type of people they were, but even

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Speaker 1: gendering the entire geography. Because this whole issue of Western

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Speaker 1: fetishization when it comes to East Asia is really a

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Speaker 1: story of imperialism. And this was something that Patricia Park

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Speaker 1: laid out really well over in Rich Magazine in an

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Speaker 1: article called the Madam Butterfly Effect. Um. And like you said, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: it does go back to Marco Polo's thirteenth century jaunt

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Speaker 1: to China, that the whole development of the Silk Road,

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Speaker 1: and once they're started to be those exchanges of goods

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Speaker 1: and stories brought back from the East, right, just like

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Speaker 1: things that people in the West had never seen before,

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Speaker 1: whether that was spices or fabrics or just you know, um,

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Speaker 1: human beings that we considered to be so insanely different

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Speaker 1: from ourselves. Um. But It's interesting when you do look

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Speaker 1: at that gender aspect because East Asia as sort of

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Speaker 1: a whole has been historically feminized in the eyes of

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Speaker 1: the West, sort of as a reaction against its formidable strength.

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Speaker 1: We could not come in and take over, essentially, we

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Speaker 1: couldn't come in and be the boss, and so we

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Speaker 1: ended up fetishizing entire groups of people and claiming the

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Speaker 1: women for our own, us being the West and typically

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Speaker 1: Western men. Yeah, and and this pathological fetishization is called orientalism,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately it is an occidental or Western attempt to

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Speaker 1: masculinize itself and cement global dominance. And you see this

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Speaker 1: fetishization of East Asian women happening, uh, particularly peaking at

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Speaker 1: different times when on the flip side of that, a

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Speaker 1: cultural castration of Asian men happens. And we're not gonna

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Speaker 1: have time to get into that on the podcast today,

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Speaker 1: but just kind of keeping the back of your mind,

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Speaker 1: how while all these women were being sort of elevated

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Speaker 1: and sexualized, we were doing the opposite to Asian men

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But things really began to

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Speaker 1: fetishize in Earnest and Caroline, if we had a dollar

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Speaker 1: already for the number of times we said fetish a

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Speaker 1: version of fetish in this podcast. We could buy a

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Speaker 1: sandwich perfect you're speaking my language. But yeah, so it

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Speaker 1: began an earnest So in the eighteen forties, after the

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Speaker 1: Opium Wars opened up British access to China, and this

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Speaker 1: was something that Patricia Park talked to Kim Brand about,

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Speaker 1: who is an associate professor of Japanese history and an

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Speaker 1: author as well. Yeah, because suddenly you have these buttoned

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Speaker 1: up Victorian men as she calls them, uh, confronted with

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Speaker 1: the image of the Japanese geisha. This is a culture

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Speaker 1: that had previously been closed to the West. They had

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Speaker 1: kicked the white people out, they were sick of them

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Speaker 1: trying to make a buck with through trading, and so

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Speaker 1: Japanese culture had been pretty closed to westerners for a

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Speaker 1: long time. Um, but once you have white guys returning

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Speaker 1: to Japan, to China, to this whole region, they're sort

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Speaker 1: of blown away at what they're seeing, especially when they

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Speaker 1: are confronted with the women around them. Yeah. So all

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Speaker 1: of this leads up to the eighties seven publication of

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Speaker 1: the book that's set off this whole thing. Even still

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Speaker 1: today we're seeing echoes of it in this entire concept

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Speaker 1: of yellow fever. So in that year a French writer

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Speaker 1: named Pierre Loadi publishes Madame chryssant him pardon my poor

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Speaker 1: French pronunciation, uh, And it is a massive hit, and

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Speaker 1: the whole plot line will probably sound a little bit familiar.

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Speaker 1: It's about this French naval officer who travels to Nagasaki

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Speaker 1: and has an affair with his quote unquote temporary bride,

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Speaker 1: Chrissant Him, who's one of many delightfully diminutive, doll like

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Speaker 1: women he discovers in Japan. And this whole tale is

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Speaker 1: a huge, huge hit. There dozens of reprints and translations

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Speaker 1: out of the gate, and it is considered the seminal

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Speaker 1: text that created the Western idea of East Asian women.

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Speaker 1: So thanks a lot, Pierre. Yeah. I mean this is

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Speaker 1: part of the trend of white guys shaping how we

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Speaker 1: view Asian women as a whole, where we get this

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Speaker 1: whole idea, this whole stereotype of all Asian women being small,

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Speaker 1: dainty wayfish women who are able to satisfy you sexually

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Speaker 1: in ways that you've never dreamed of before. And meanwhile, though,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to note this is just one

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Speaker 1: of many of Lodi's tales of exploiting foreign women that

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Speaker 1: he encounters. So like traveling the world writing variations on

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Speaker 1: Madam Kreisan tem just in different countries, like oh well,

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Speaker 1: now I'm going to exploit this country's women and this

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Speaker 1: region's women over here, shaping all of them into these

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Speaker 1: perfect little submissive dolls. So he's basically the original globe

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Speaker 1: trotting bro who comes home with so many stories you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't believe the women. Men you gotta get over there,

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Speaker 1: that's right. And just like with those people, I would

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Speaker 1: imagine that not all of his tales of conquest or true. No, seriously,

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Speaker 1: it's true. Man, I'm telling you, she lives in Canada.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't know it was crazy. But Lody's success in

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Speaker 1: this whole story inspires another guy named John Luther Long,

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Speaker 1: who writes a short story a lot of listeners have

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Speaker 1: probably heard of called Madame Butterfly, So now I don't

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Speaker 1: have to try to mispronounce quez antem um and Madame

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Speaker 1: Butterfly is all about a dude named Lieutenant Benjamin Franklin

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Speaker 1: Pinkerton and his temporary Asian bride shows your son who

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Speaker 1: has his baby, who is then named Trouble, and then

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Speaker 1: spoiler alert, she kills herself. Well, I think actually in

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Speaker 1: the short story, uh, they generously allow her to just

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Speaker 1: attempt to kill herself and then she gets to live

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Speaker 1: out like a troubled and miserable existence with her child

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Speaker 1: from then on out. But it's not until we get

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Speaker 1: the Piccini opera of Madern Butterfly, which I believe is

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Speaker 1: when that character kills herself. But she's like, oh you

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Speaker 1: know what, audience is love? She well, right, because then,

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Speaker 1: so not only do you have the dainty, submissive, sexually

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Speaker 1: satisfying woman, but you throw in some self sacrifice into

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Speaker 1: all of that to make her like the perfect lady

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Speaker 1: martyr figure for a white guy. Yeah, a woman who

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Speaker 1: is so in love with you that when she can't

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Speaker 1: have you, she kills herself. Hello, what a dream gal um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Madama Butterfly premiered in nineteen o four and remains one

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Speaker 1: of the most performed operas in the US and abroad.

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Speaker 1: And Caroline, is this the moment when when we can

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Speaker 1: take a quick side trip to talk about high school?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Yeah, so I don't understand how I

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Speaker 1: got through so many, so many of my years. Um

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Speaker 1: without putting these two pieces together. I guess it's just

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Speaker 1: because I'm not a Puccini fan girl like maybe I

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Speaker 1: should be. But as I was researching and reading for

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Speaker 1: this episode, I was seeing the named Pinkerton, Pinkerton Pinkerton.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that was one of my most favorite

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Speaker 1: albums in high school, the beloved second release of Wheezer.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, of course I realized listening to

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Speaker 1: it approximately one ba jillion times, that he is seeing

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Speaker 1: about Checho San and all this stuff. But I never

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Speaker 1: put two and two together, and it sort of blew

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Speaker 1: my mind too. I can't believe in the number of

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Speaker 1: times that I listened to that record growing up, and

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Speaker 1: even as a college student, that I didn't I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize that that's the connection. And I this whole time,

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Speaker 1: I had just been thinking Rivers Cuomo is just some

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Speaker 1: sort of like creep with yellow fever fetishization of Asian women.

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Speaker 1: And it's no that I'm necessarily wrong, but I was

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Speaker 1: trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, thinking, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: he just really likes Puccini, or he really likes Madam Butterfly,

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Speaker 1: like that's great, right, that's cultured emo. That's not really emo.

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Speaker 1: Don't send me your letters clarifying why Weezer is not EMO, please. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: so I did a little googling. I wanted to better

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Speaker 1: understand the connection there between Weezer and Madam Butterfly. But basically,

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Speaker 1: in this Rolling Stone interview that I read with Rivers Cuomo,

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Speaker 1: he goes on and on about how in listening to

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Speaker 1: Madam Butterfly over and over again, he becomes fascinated with

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Speaker 1: the character, with her character, and at the same time

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Speaker 1: became infatuated with that type of girl that's in the opera.

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Speaker 1: And he says that he identifies with the Pinkerton character

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Speaker 1: because he's basically like the rock star of his day.

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Speaker 1: He goes from port to port picking up ladies. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, oh, I guess okay, considering the

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Speaker 1: popularity of Weezer, all right, Rivers Cuomo, you are tortured Pinkerton.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's why he entered his celibacy phase for a while. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it was it was just surprising again that it

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Speaker 1: somehow took this long. Thank you stuff, Mom never told

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Speaker 1: you for putting the pieces together. And it's also interesting

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Speaker 1: to to really just keep in mind that these stereotypes

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Speaker 1: and this fetishization led to a hundred years plus of

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Speaker 1: this self sacrificing storyline, because then all of this Madam

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Speaker 1: Butterfly business inspired Miss Saigon, which is basically the same

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Speaker 1: story but told about a Vietnamese woman rather than a

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Speaker 1: Japanese woman. Yeah, and if we move forward in our timeline,

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Speaker 1: well hot back from Weezer, but forward from Puccini, when

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Speaker 1: we're in the twentieth century, we have the emergence of

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Speaker 1: a new sexualized stereotype, the dragon lady. And this is

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Speaker 1: the cunning femme fatal foil to the China doll slash

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Speaker 1: lotus flower. And the term was coined in the nineteen thirties. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was used to describe Empress Dowager c ch as

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Speaker 1: she was slanderously portrayed in British historian Hugh Trevor Roper's

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Speaker 1: completely false account of his affair with her. Among other things,

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Speaker 1: this guy claimed that the Empress had an oversized clitterists,

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Speaker 1: so good for him, just slut shaming women that he

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Speaker 1: never actually had any sort of contact with. Well, and

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Speaker 1: that reflects how these stereotypes do tend to meander down

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Speaker 1: to vulver anatomy. And yes, vulver is an adjective. It's

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Speaker 1: all awkward to say, but it does exist. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: just it's just one of many that are vulver related. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and have to do with size and assumptions about size.

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Speaker 1: And that's something too, echoing back to our podcast on

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Speaker 1: big butts and the fetishization, particularly of women of color

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Speaker 1: and with the story of Sarki Bartman and all of

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Speaker 1: that fascination um as well with or I shouldn't say fascination,

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Speaker 1: but even just dark obsession with this idea that Native

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Speaker 1: African women had different sized volvots compared to white women

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Speaker 1: as well. So all sorts of just horrible types of

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Speaker 1: things like that going on. Um. And one person that

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Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about in terms of the portrayals

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Speaker 1: of the stereotypes in Hollywood once we move from literature

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Speaker 1: and into film. In early Hollywood, one of the only

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Speaker 1: Asian American actresses that you saw on the sill of

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Speaker 1: her screen was a woman named Anna May Wong, and

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Speaker 1: our cultural treatment of Asian women is so much reflected

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Speaker 1: in her career. Yeah, and this really echoes the career

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Speaker 1: paths of a lot of black actresses during this time too,

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Speaker 1: who were often shuttled off into roles as maids, housekeepers,

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Speaker 1: and the like. UM. Anime Wong, for instance, appeared in

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Speaker 1: sixty films, always though as some type of slave, temptress, prostitute,

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Speaker 1: or doomed lover. There was always some sort of subservient

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Speaker 1: sexuality and sexual tension going on. And we wanted to

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Speaker 1: spend a little time talking about her biography and experience

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Speaker 1: in Hollywood because to me, at least, it was so

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Speaker 1: informative of how these stereotypes really took root and manifested

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Speaker 1: in the United States. And I highly recommend listeners that

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Speaker 1: you read the BuzzFeed piece about this, written by the

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Speaker 1: Fantastic and Helen Peterson, who has also been on the

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Speaker 1: podcast UM. She wrote a great piece about Anime Wong

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Speaker 1: and it is a recommended read. And Wong was a

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Speaker 1: Chinese American actress born in l a in nineteen o five.

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Speaker 1: And even the fact that she was born in the

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Speaker 1: United States was something that Hollywood tabloids because could never

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Speaker 1: really wrap their minds around, like, I know she looks Chinese,

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Speaker 1: but surprised she was actually born here. Yeah, And I now,

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Speaker 1: like all of the articles about Anime Wong put every

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Speaker 1: modern fashion spread that discusses Asian inspired fashion and stark

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Speaker 1: relief because because I don't know if the headline East

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Speaker 1: meets West sort of originates in terms of pop culture

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Speaker 1: use originates with Anime Wong articles, But holy crap, like

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Speaker 1: that seems like they couldn't write anything else. They were

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Speaker 1: so everybody's minds were blown that this is an American

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Speaker 1: woman born in America in case you were wondering, um

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Speaker 1: who didn't speak with an accent, and they just couldn't

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Speaker 1: get over the like the discrepancy there. Yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: the treatment of Asians at the time that she was

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Speaker 1: born is very much reminiscent of what we talked about

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Speaker 1: in our Spicy Latina's episode exploring how those anti Mexican

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Speaker 1: in particular stereotypes really started to creep in at this time, because,

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Speaker 1: as Anne Helen Peterson lays out, in the nineteenth century,

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Speaker 1: the first mostly male Chinese laborers start coming to the US,

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Speaker 1: and then in two you have something called the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Exclusion Act, barring their entry to the country because they

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Speaker 1: were believed to be immoral, unhealthy, and a threat to

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Speaker 1: our fabric of society. So this is the environment where

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Speaker 1: things are happening. And there was also a lot of

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Speaker 1: discomfort too with the fact that a lot of Asian women,

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Speaker 1: because of these kinds of US policies, were not allowed

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Speaker 1: to come into the United States as well. There were

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Speaker 1: fears that they would bring over things like STDs. So

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Speaker 1: you have these communities of mostly Asian men that white people. Similarly,

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Speaker 1: we're like, oh, what's going on over there. That's not right.

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Speaker 1: There are new women. But at the same time, they

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Speaker 1: judged their women as being immoral too, so there was

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Speaker 1: it was just a mess to begin with. And here's

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Speaker 1: Anime Wong who grows up in l a and decides

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Speaker 1: to be an actress. Yeah, so she starts appearing as

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Speaker 1: an extra and a few films being shot in Chinatown.

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Speaker 1: When she's like fourteen, she gets her dad's permission, and

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Speaker 1: he only lets her go if she is constantly supervised

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Speaker 1: in chaperon by a bunch of big dudes. But she

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Speaker 1: began acting full time in nineteen twenty one, with her

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Speaker 1: big break coming in ninety two's The Toll of the Sea,

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Speaker 1: which is basically another take on the Madam Butterfly storyline,

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Speaker 1: and of course her character's name is Lotus flower Um.

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Speaker 1: But despite the fact that she's a great beauty and

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Speaker 1: a great actress, she's got this passion for acting. The

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Speaker 1: racism of the day kept her from everything from attending

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Speaker 1: Hollywood parties to even kissing her white co stars on screen,

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Speaker 1: thanks to things like California's anti missigenation law. She also

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Speaker 1: was super afraid to be caught with any white co

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Speaker 1: stars out and about. In the same way that celebrities today,

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Speaker 1: if their photos taken and they're together, everybody automatically assumes

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Speaker 1: their dating or sleeping together whatever. Celebrities back then, especially

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Speaker 1: celebrities of color, were also subject to all of these assumptions,

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Speaker 1: and so she was quoted as saying that she had

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Speaker 1: to cut off a bunch of love affairs because she

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Speaker 1: was so worried that one or both of them would

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Speaker 1: get person only hurt or that professionally hurt. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so this is similarly reflected in the roles that she's offered,

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Speaker 1: because she could only ever play either a more sympathetic

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Speaker 1: character who has to kill herself like a cho Cho

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Speaker 1: San because her exotic love is doomed, and also ps

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Speaker 1: they can't show them kissing, so it's not like they

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Speaker 1: can really have a romance blossom, or she would play

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Speaker 1: a dragon lady temptress who tries to thwart romance between

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Speaker 1: two lily white leads. So not exactly uh much of

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Speaker 1: a arrange. She was, you know, at liberty to explore,

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Speaker 1: but the Tabloyd's loved her. This was one thing that

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Speaker 1: Peterson noted that, unlike say black actresses of the day,

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Speaker 1: who would not have gotten any coverage at all, because

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Speaker 1: Animey Wong was lighter skinned and still exotic in the

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Speaker 1: fact that she just wasn't black, they could still talk

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Speaker 1: about her. She would never make the cover of him

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Speaker 1: a magazine, but oh she made for just such tantalizing

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Speaker 1: content as we would say in the Internet age today, right.

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Speaker 1: And one of the descriptors that they tended to use

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Speaker 1: for really Asian people in general, but definitely for anime

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Speaker 1: Wong as well, is talking about her ancient race. There's

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Speaker 1: always this discussion by white media back then and I

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Speaker 1: don't know maybe today about the ancient races of Asia,

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Speaker 1: as if we have somehow excavated from some block of ice,

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Speaker 1: like entire groups of people who have just been around

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Speaker 1: alive for centuries, giving them like the dinosaur treatment almost

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Speaker 1: but yeah, so along those same lines, one of the

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Speaker 1: fan magazines of the time said that she reminds us

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Speaker 1: of cruel and intricate intrigues and at the same time

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Speaker 1: of crooned Chinese lullabies. She brings to the screen the

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Speaker 1: rare comprehension and the mysterious colors of her ivory skinned race.

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Speaker 1: Who so, considering that climate, it's not terribly surprising that

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Speaker 1: she never really broke through America's outsized racism to become

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Speaker 1: an A List, unlike one of her gal pals, Marlena Dietrich,

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Speaker 1: who she befriended when she moved to Europe where things

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00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: were a bit more liberal, and she was even passed

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Speaker 1: over at certain times for Chinese character lead roles that

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Speaker 1: were instead cast with white ladies. For instance, in two

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Speaker 1: Madam Butterfly, the movie started Carrie Grant as Pinkerton, which

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Speaker 1: that broke my heart a little bit because yes, did

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Speaker 1: I have a childhood crush on Carrie Grant? For sure? Totally.

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Speaker 1: Mr Blandings built his dream house. Hello, I know someone

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Speaker 1: who can fill that dream bedroom and his Chocho son.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, Sylvia Sidney of course famed white ladies, Yes,

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Speaker 1: famed white lady Sylvia Sydney, and there were all of

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Speaker 1: these magazine spreads at the time, kind of behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes of these films detailing how they transformed white women

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Speaker 1: into Asian characters, which was just a lot of like racist, awful,

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Speaker 1: like here's how we pull her eyes back and put

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Speaker 1: her in yellow face, uh and make her talk with

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Speaker 1: a broken English accent. It was all pretty horrifying. Um,

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Speaker 1: But there was Anne Helen Peterson points out over in

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Speaker 1: that buzzfeedd article a film version of the book The

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Speaker 1: Good Earth, which was not perfect in its depiction of

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Speaker 1: Asian people, but still a little bit better, a little

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Speaker 1: bit more rounded. And so she points out that MGM

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Speaker 1: offered Anime Wong the role of again Lotus, a slinky

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Speaker 1: tea house dancer who seduces the main moral character and

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Speaker 1: becomes his second wife. But Anime Wong actually refused the

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00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: role because at this point she'd been to Europe, she

426
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: saw that it could be better. She saw that her

427
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: friend Marlene Dietrich was getting these great roles. She saw

428
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: that white women were portraying Asian women all all on

429
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: screen everywhere, and so she said, you're asking me with

430
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: Chinese blood to do the only unsympathetic role in a

431
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: picture featuring an all American cast portraying Chinese characters. No thanks,

432
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: So she turned that down and basically stepped back from

433
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: large roles. So by the time we get to World

434
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: War Two, when relationships between say the United States and

435
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: the Japanese become far more complicated, to say the least,

436
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: this relationship is already so disfunctional. We already have these

437
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: ideas firmly ingrained in popular culture. And we're going to

438
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: talk more about World War two and the Lotus flower

439
00:29:51,760 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: revival when we come right back from a quick bread. So,

440
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: once World War two happens and then we're involved in

441
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: the Korean War and in Vietnam, American soldiers and Americans

442
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: in general are put more in contact with Asian cultures

443
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: than really ever before, and they're dealing with them in

444
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: ways that they've never really dealt with them before. And

445
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: of course, unfortunately, one of the ways in which American

446
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: g I s and Asian women are become involved is

447
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: through the sex trade. Yeah, I mean, of course there

448
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: were actual relationships that might have been taking place, but

449
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: there was rampant prostitution that was happening also rape between

450
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: soldiers and local women, and again we return to this

451
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: era of gendering of the East, so sort of refeminizing

452
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: this area of the world, which certainly isn't a coincidence

453
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: because yet again you have this Western power the occident

454
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: like trying to reassert its dominance to be the masculine

455
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: world power. And it's Madam Butterfly all over again culturally,

456
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: with similar stories that we've talked about in the first

457
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: half of the podcast, repackaged repeatedly, only this time with

458
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: more white guys, savior twists, and prostitutes with hearts of gold. Yeah,

459
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: and Kristen put together a list, and I've only seen

460
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: one of the movies on this list, and that's South Pacific,

461
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: which premiered on Broadway in nine. When I was growing up,

462
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: my dad was such a huge like Broadway and musical fans,

463
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: so I've definitely familiar with South Pacific. But in this

464
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: era you also get nineteen fifty seven's Sayinara. In nineteen

465
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: sixty you get the world of Susie Wong, and in

466
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: the eighties we see Miss Saigon, which is set in Vietnam,

467
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: as we already mentioned, but also Old Metal Jacket, which

468
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: coined some more unsavory pop cultural references with the whole

469
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: mesa horny line that we've heard not only from that movie,

470
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: but it got also shuttled into music as well. Yeah,

471
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: and today we still see Hollywood peddling stereotypical roles for

472
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Asian actresses. They're either model minorities, you know, the nerdy

473
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: kid in class, their dragon lady businesswomen. They're sexy kung

474
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: fu masters or non English speaking immigrants running dry cleaners,

475
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: or their prostitutes. And if we move away from the

476
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: big screen to the small screen, television is slightly more

477
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: progressive as it usually is, but just slightly. It's not

478
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: like it's the Land of plenty. Yeah. Of course Grey's

479
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: Anatomy fans will recognize Sandra Oh's name. She she was

480
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: probably my favorite character, definitely was my favorite character on

481
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: Grey's Anatomy back when I used to watch it, and

482
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: her characters existence was certainly not built or shaped around

483
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: her race at all. Um. You also have Lucy Lou,

484
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: who I love too. She went from being sort of

485
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: the resident dragon lady on Ally McBeal to a more

486
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: well rounded character on the show Elementary as Watson, and

487
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: then on Glee you have Jenna Ushkowitz and Hettian Park

488
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: on Hannibal as investigator Beverly Cats, and this was really interesting.

489
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: So um spoiler alert for those of you who are

490
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: not caught up on Hannibal, Park's character was written off

491
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: the show. And I won't tell you how, We'll just

492
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: say that she was written off the show. And there

493
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: was a fan outcry, partially because it is still relatively

494
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: were rare to see Asian women in these more well

495
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: rounded roles. And she took to her blog to personally

496
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: respond to the fan outcry, and it really, you know,

497
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: gets at how this issue is still alive and well

498
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: in Hollywood. So she wrote, quote, I'd rather focus on

499
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: the positive stuff. I got to play this amazing woman

500
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: who didn't have to sleep with anyone or act dum

501
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: and girly or fawn all over some guy to be

502
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: conniving to get people to notice or respect me. And

503
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: she didn't speak broken English or karate chop anyone, not

504
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 1: that I would have minded. Nobody called her dragon lady

505
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: or exotic. Yeah, it's just that whole idea of of

506
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,959
Speaker 1: normalizing diversity and and having TV and film represent our

507
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: everyday experience what we're seeing on the street and so

508
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: not having a character like I was saying with Sandra

509
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: O and Grey's anatomy that's built entirely around someone's Asian nous,

510
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: having an Asian actor or actress be able to play

511
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: just a character on a TV show. Um and Over

512
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: at Salon though, they point out that two particular Orange

513
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: Is the New Black characters aren't as well rounded as

514
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: they could be, and those are the characters of So

515
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: So and Chang, that they sort of huge stereotypical, and

516
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: that their backstories either haven't been fleshed out enough or

517
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: that they haven't gotten as much play as some of

518
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: the other characters. Yeah, it seems like Kimiko Glenn's plotline

519
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: playing So So is a little less stereotypical. Like if anything, Um,

520
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: she you know, portrays the mental health realities that can

521
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: be associated with not only well being in prison, but

522
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: also these model minority expectations that you know, do sometimes

523
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: happen within Asian American households. But with Chang Um, up

524
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: until this most recent season, I mean, she was very

525
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: much just a stock character and a little bit of

526
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: comic relief. But I remember watching it, I mean long

527
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: before obviously we were searching for this episode and thinking like, huh, okay,

528
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: that's kind of an outlier. Especially before so so came along,

529
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: she was the only Asian character and rarely spoke Yeah. Well,

530
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: in that Salon article, the writer was like, well, I'm

531
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: not trying to argue for more Asian women in prison, um,

532
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: but the whole underrepresentation of Asian characters in this show

533
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: that takes place in a prison does sort of reflect

534
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 1: the existing stereotype of Asians as the quote unquote model

535
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: minority that they never do anything wrong. They just study

536
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: math and get go grades and get married and go

537
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: on to be model citizens. When even if some people

538
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 1: do think that that model minority stereotype is positive, like hey,

539
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: we're not saying that you break the law, so shouldn't

540
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: you be grateful, it's still squashing entire groups of people

541
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: down to a one dimensional representation that doesn't reflect reality

542
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: absolutely well, and speaking of squashing down a culture to

543
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: not reflect reality, very briefly, this is something that we've

544
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: seen female pop stars in particular pedal out with some

545
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: of their acts. I mean, this is more of a

546
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: bigger conversation about cultural appropriation, but this is also too

547
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: recycling some of these fetishistic images that we've talked about.

548
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: So I feel like the conversation really got started way

549
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: back now in the olden days of two thousand four

550
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: when Gwen Stefani released Love Angel Music Baby, and as

551
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: part of her stick with that, she hired on the

552
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: hard Juko girls posse do not only appear in shows

553
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: and backup dance for her, but just to be her

554
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: posse everywhere, well, to be her accessories. Yeah, I think

555
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: is what a lot of people took issue with, as

556
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 1: you can really claim about any type of cultural appropriation

557
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: or plenty of stuff that musicians do in music videos.

558
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: You know, there have been plenty of people like Miley

559
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: Cyrus and Taylor Swift have been accused of similar things,

560
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: but with African American women. Um but in you also

561
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: have uh Katie Perry at the American Music Awards recycling

562
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: that tired geisha image of the cute, c diminutive, submissive

563
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: woman carrying the little parasol wearing the kimono. Yeah, and

564
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: then it also in two thousand thirteen, Avril Levine's Hello

565
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: Kitty video was very much Japanese school girl. A lot

566
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: of people weren't too happy about that. Her defense was, hey,

567
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: I shouted in Japan and the director was Japanese. I

568
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: love Japanese culture, Which is why a lot of this

569
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: really meanders over more to a conversation about cultural appropriation

570
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: than these kinds of this fetishization that we're talking about,

571
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: but it's still related. It's all part of the same

572
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: ball awact. Yeah, because whether you're fetishizing someone or you're

573
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: appropriating part of their culture, you're still just taking a

574
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: tidbit of information that is oftentimes false or misrepresentative and

575
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: using it to represent entire groups of people. And it's

576
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: definitely something that you see play out when you do

577
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: talk about romantic or sexual relationships and dating and the

578
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: way that people who are accused of having yellow fever

579
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: are talked about. But there's still pervasive stereotyping, especially when

580
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: it comes to relationships between white men and Asian women.

581
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: And I'm not just talking about, you know, fetishization that

582
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: some white dudes might have, particularly for Asian women, but

583
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: I'm talking about from the outside looking into and our

584
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: outside assumptions when we see those couples and the whole

585
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: yellow fever thing of saying, oh, well, he must be

586
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: like that, she must be like that, they're like X

587
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: y Z. Yeah. And Patricia Park in that Bitch article

588
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: that we sited earlier, talks a lot about how everyone

589
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: from comedians to frat boys to whoever, recycles a lot

590
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: of that To borrow a phrase ancient praise of Asian

591
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: women's supposed physical perfection, the fact that they are small

592
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: and petite everywhere. Yeah, this is something too that Karen

593
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: Ang wrote about in also in a Bitch article that

594
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: was published in two thousand called the Yellow Fever Pages,

595
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: and it's cited in so many pieces that talk about

596
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: this um and she wrote the fantasy Asian is intelligent

597
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: yet pliable, mysterious yet ornamental, perpetually pre pubescent, ageless, and petite,

598
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: and she comes from a culture where women traditionally serve men.

599
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: So you know, you package all of that up together

600
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: and you get yellow fever. Meanwhile, too, we have the

601
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: more cultural castration of Asian men in the United States,

602
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: and there is some disturbing evidence of that, especially if

603
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: you look at the sex industry, especially in Southeast Asia

604
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: and and sex tourism being the primary tourist attraction in Thailand. Yeah,

605
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: and then you combine that with the fact that You've

606
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: got all of these websites that are dedicated to matching

607
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: up American men with Asian women, and that's a huge

608
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: market and in and of itself, it's almost like a

609
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: new type of arranged marriage. And then far more casually

610
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: and anecdotally in the United States, there's the kind of

611
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: the off hand suggestion to say Asian girl friends of like, oh,

612
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: you know what, you should date this guy because he

613
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: loves Asian girls. Um and a huge YouTuber, Anna Connor

614
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 1: made a fantastic video about this in which she just said, no, stop, stop,

615
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: shut it down, don't do any of that because it's

616
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: kind of racist and insulting basically. And there, in fact,

617
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: is an entire documentary called Seeing Asian Female about online

618
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: dating specifically to find an Asian bride, and it was

619
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: made by Chinese American documentarian filmmaker Debbie Lum who follows

620
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 1: this guy, you know, as he seeks out a girlfriend,

621
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: um and wife. He wants an Asian wife, and particularly

622
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: a Chinese born woman, and he meets her online. He

623
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: travels to China, she comes back with him, they get married. Yeah,

624
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: this guy, Stephen definitely wasn't portrayed in the best light

625
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: that's a nice way of saying. He was definitely portrayed

626
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: as a creep, and his wife was definitely portrayed as

627
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: someone who was just seeking a visa. So this wasn't

628
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: a glowing representation of white guy meets Asian girl, they

629
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: fall in love. This wasn't sort of a fairy tale story.

630
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: And not surprisingly, Stephen did not love being portrayed as

631
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: this pathetic white guy with a massive fetish. And he

632
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: left this huge comment on the NPR story, which was fascinating. Um.

633
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: But he says that, you know, lightheartedly, he could accept

634
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: the dismissive and negative phrase yellow fever, but he says,

635
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: in reality that sounds far more strange than how I

636
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: view it, like an affliction rather than a preference. But

637
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: you have to keep in mind that he was explicitly

638
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: seeking out Asian women, and that he zeroed in on

639
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: Chinese women after communicating with countless women and realizing that

640
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: he liked the communication style of Chinese women more so

641
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: whatever that means, um well, and even the notion that

642
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: you like the and I don't. Maybe he gets into

643
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: this more in the documentary. I would hope so, because

644
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: as someone Caroline who's spent almost three weeks in China.

645
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: I'm an expert, but the very idea that it's like saying, oh,

646
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: I like how American women, uh communicate where It's like,

647
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: wherever you go, it's going to be a little bit different.

648
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: Regional differences, especially if you go to China, big differences

649
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: depending on where you're going in the country where she

650
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: grew up, what her family dynamic was like. So wait,

651
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: are you saying that, like, women can be different. I'm

652
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: saying people can be different. My god, crazy. But you

653
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: know a lot of people would argue, as Stephen might,

654
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 1: that this is just his preference, the way that somebody

655
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: might like a blonde mate, or somebody else might like

656
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: somebody who's tall, Uh, that this is just a preference. Yeah,

657
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I will be completely honest. I mean, because

658
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: why not, I've only ever dated white guys. It's not

659
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: that I have not dated guys of other ethnicities, because

660
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: I have no but that has been what I've been

661
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: attracted to. So I could see, I can see how

662
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: you can play it both ways of well maybe well

663
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: maybe that's just my biological innate brain, you know, mechanics

664
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,959
Speaker 1: leading me to my Now, you know, blonde, blue eyed

665
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: fiance with a dreamboat. He's like a Kendall. But I

666
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: mean other people would say, well, that's just social influences,

667
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: and so there could definitely be some social influences that

668
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: lead the twice divorced Stephen to see that his son

669
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: had married a Japanese woman, whom he described as very agreeable. Uh,

670
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 1: to then decide, well, I'm going to pursue Asian women.

671
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: I'm just not sure what tap yet. Yeah. Yeah, I

672
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: mean there's kind of no way around it in his case. Um,

673
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: But regardless though of the fact that I think, you know,

674
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: that does exist in in some situations, that does exist. Um.

675
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: There's also two side note, Caroline. One thing that I

676
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 1: wasn't able to find any analysis on on, but jumping

677
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 1: from that, the stereotype, especially the white geek guy being

678
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: extremely attracted to Asian women. There's this whole comic about

679
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: it called Charisma Man. You can google it and it

680
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: sort of sums up the whole thing. So like Rivers Cuoma, Yeah,

681
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: like Rivers Cuomo, Yeah, it gets Caroline just made a

682
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: geek face because it does get to a point with

683
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: that of like, wait, what is what is really going

684
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: on here? What are these dynamics, not just like demonize

685
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: all of you know, anyone in this situation, but just

686
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: wonder what those dynamics are. Well. Sure, especially because um,

687
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: whether you're Asian or whether you have Asian friends or family, Uh,

688
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: you're probably familiar with the horrors that a lot of

689
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 1: Asian women face on dating sites. I mean, yes, yes,

690
00:46:55,400 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: all women hashtag all women do face horrific messages and

691
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: things like that on dating sites. I have was definitely

692
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: the recipient of a few when I used to be

693
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: on Okay, keep it back in the day. Um, but

694
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: Kristen and I have a friend who used to be

695
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: on a couple of dating sites, and the abuse that

696
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: she would suffer from men who were saying horrific things

697
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: that were based purely on her race, purely on her

698
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: Asian nous. I I just don't know, um, how you

699
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: can say that it's not an Asian fetish I just

700
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: like Asian chicks. I mean, it definitely speaks to the

701
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: power of these stereotypes. Going back told Pierre LOADI come on, Pierre,

702
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: and it's unfortunate because when we get out of stereotype

703
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: and fetishization land and into attraction. Bill, you know, you

704
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: have plenty of healthy, real world relationships between Asian women

705
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: and white guys, and because though of all of that

706
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: stereotypical baggage, now they have to deal with assumptions. This

707
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: was something that Victoria Chan wrote about over at Vice,

708
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: basically saying like, you're like, these stereotypes are making my

709
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: relationship unbearable sometimes because of the things people say to me,

710
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: the jokes that I'm expected to endure, and also just

711
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: this assumption that my boyfriend is a creep. Yeah, it

712
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: is that dual awfulness of having to endure casual racism.

713
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: One of the examples that Chan gave was they went

714
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: to her boyfriend's family's place over the summer and they

715
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 1: were going to play beer pong, and people were like, Hey,

716
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: you'll like this. It's just like ping pong. Yeah, your

717
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: your people are familiar with that um which I think

718
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: she was talking about, caused a fight with her and

719
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and he apologized on behalf of the person.

720
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: But so you've already got to deal with the pressures

721
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: of one member of the relationship having to deal with racism,

722
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: whether it's explicit or implicit, or direct or indirect um

723
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: and one not one being as she says the privileged,

724
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: middle class white guy. Um. But then also having to

725
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: deal with assumptions about your relationship like that stinks that

726
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: people are just looking at you and being like Asian

727
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: lady and white guy, your boyfriend must be a creep.

728
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: Something's twisted. Well, and she brought up to the assumptions that, well,

729
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: she must be ashamed of her heritage or she's just

730
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, why doesn't she want to be with an

731
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: Asian guy? What does she think is wrong with with

732
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: with those guys? Um, Which again is unfortunate because these

733
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: relationships exist. I mean, if we look at marriage, as

734
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: of of Asian newlywed's in the US partnered up outside

735
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: of their race. And this is coming from the Pew Center,

736
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: thirty seven percent of Asian women married someone who is

737
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: an Asian and compared to six of Asian men. So

738
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: these couplings are like totally common, you know, but so

739
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: unfortunately weighed down with this baggage which so unfortunately just

740
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: relates back to imperialism and the occident just being gross jerks. Yeah,

741
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: it was sort of crazy to put it all in

742
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: the perspective that so many of the stereotypes that we

743
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: culturally hold about Asian women in general come from just

744
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: some white guys who went into a previously pretty insular,

745
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: closed society and wrote books or plays or operas about it.

746
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: And uh so that's that's what we think of Asian women.

747
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. And what do we do then, Caroline,

748
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: what can we the change starts with us to change start? Yeah,

749
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: just like that Michael Jackson song, Yes, podcasters in the mirror.

750
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: So one thing though, that we can do on an

751
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: individual level to make life a little bit easier with

752
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 1: all this stuff is stop the questions of but where

753
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: are you really from? Oh no, no, no no, no, I

754
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: know that you were born in the United States. I

755
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: mean where are you really from? Yeah? Because then all

756
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: that does is echo back to those articles about Anime

757
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: Wong who people were like, wait wait wait, wait wait wait,

758
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 1: you're Chinese, but you're also American, but you're born here.

759
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,359
Speaker 1: Why don't you even accent? Where are you from? Where

760
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 1: you really from? Because all of this really just amounts

761
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: to a giant pile of other ing. And while you

762
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: might think, oh, I don't perpetuate these kinds of stereotypes,

763
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: it there are more of those microaggressions. We could say

764
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: that we can all probably pay closer attention to and

765
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: seriously friends. If you have a single Asian friend that

766
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,479
Speaker 1: you want to hook up, don't don't suggest the guy

767
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: who exclusively dates Asian girls, you know, like, don't don't

768
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 1: try to, don't pull that whole thing. Yeah, yeah, because

769
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: then that just makes you feel or makes your friend

770
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: feel like, uh, she's just another another widget in a

771
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 1: collection of things. Like if you were to say, Caroline,

772
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 1: I've got this this guy for you, Uh, he's really

773
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: into short girls, the only dates girls with bangs, you'll

774
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: have a lot to talk about. Yeah, hairstyling and tall shoes. Um.

775
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, that just that just enforces that nobody could

776
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: be possibly interested in you for you and your personality.

777
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: But that's something about you physically or culturally is the biggest,

778
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: most important part of you. Well, I'm really curious to Caroline,

779
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: to hear from listeners who might experience these kinds of

780
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: stereotypes unfortunately in their relationships or in how they're treated

781
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: in their dating experiences. Um, whether they might be like

782
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 1: a white guy who has has been interested in, or

783
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: dated or married to an Asian woman or vice versa. Um,

784
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you what are your thoughts

785
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: on this kind of stereotyping or is this just something

786
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: that you can block out and just completely disregard as

787
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: nonsensical because a lot of it really is mom stuff.

788
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: At how Stuffworks dot Com is our email address. You

789
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or message

790
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 1: us on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

791
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So I have a

792
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: letter here from Christina. She says, I just wanted to

793
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: say hi and tell you how much I enjoy your podcasts.

794
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: I've been listening for a few years. You make mowing

795
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: the grass and running fun. Oh wow, mowing the grass

796
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: one okay, she says, as a woman who's consistently worked

797
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: in non traditional types of jobs, I love the girl

798
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: power feeling I get from listening to your topics. I

799
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: think there has been some progress and attitudes towards women

800
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: in male dominated professions, but there's still so far to go.

801
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: I've been a military police officer in the Army, a

802
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: civilian city police officer, and now I work in the

803
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,879
Speaker 1: firearms industry. If I had a dollar for every time

804
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: a customer calls in and assumes I'm the receptionist or

805
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: asks for someone who can answer a technical question, as

806
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 1: if there is no way I would know anything about

807
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 1: those scary things that oh bang, I could retire tomorrow.

808
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,399
Speaker 1: My co workers are all male, and no one ever

809
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: calls and assumes they cannot assist them. I've even had

810
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: several occasions where I've been told straight up that they

811
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: want to speak to a man. Most of the time,

812
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: I'm happy to just surprise them by showing that I do,

813
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: in fact, I know my stuff. I hope you guys

814
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: have a great week and keep up the awesome podcasting. Well,

815
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: thanks Christine, I keep up the awesome listening and knowing

816
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 1: things about those scary things that go bang. Well. I

817
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: gotta let her here from Abby and she writes, I'm

818
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 1: an a gender and work sociology class at the University

819
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: of Georgia right now, in which my professor has so

820
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: graciously exposed my classmates and I to your podcast. For

821
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: the short summer course, we've been required to listen to

822
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 1: seven of your podcasts, but seven has simply not been

823
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: enough for someone like me who was so interested in

824
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: educating myself on gender type issues. Side note, we give

825
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: that professor an a plus. That's so cool. We're part

826
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: of a syllabu scareline. In recently listening to your podcast

827
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: on Bio Ratier, I found myself getting excited and somewhat

828
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 1: sad at how true everything you were saying was. As

829
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: a by slash pan woman in a hetero relationship, I

830
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: find my queer status being questioned all the time. I

831
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: recently faced some complications in my relationship where I admittedly

832
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: cheated on my significant other with a woman. I felt terrible,

833
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 1: But when all of my friends found out afterward about

834
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: how much of it told the instance had taken on

835
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: my relationship, I ran into my favorite question, you only

836
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 1: hooked up with a woman, so why does it matter?

837
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: People were insistent that I had I cheated with a man,

838
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: my significant other would have every right to be heartbroken,

839
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,280
Speaker 1: but since it was only with a woman, he was overreacting.

840
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: Some people even dared suggest that my significant other should

841
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: have only been upset because he wasn't able to watch

842
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 1: the interaction. You can imagine how invalidating this was to

843
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: both my sexuality and to his emotions. This also touches

844
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: on your mention of female bisexuality being more accepted. I

845
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: think it's important to note that true female bisexuality is

846
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: not actually accepted at all. Instead, it's a hyper sexualized

847
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 1: idea of girl on girl physical contact we so often

848
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: see in porn that's truly accepted. I hope for one

849
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