Speaker 1: Welcome to Go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio as a stand
Speaker 1: up comedian, of which I am not. I tried. It's hilarious.
Speaker 1: I've been your fan forever. Hey, you know I should
Speaker 1: say right now, I'm married, so I'm off the table.
Speaker 1: We can do weekends. Get your bullshit detector and get
Speaker 1: it honed. Are you mad about something? Go out and
Speaker 1: seek people who are mad about related things, and also
Speaker 1: listen to them if part of what they're mad about
Speaker 1: is you. You actually look for those little colonels of hope. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's that's a good stuff. I think it is
Speaker 1: a good stuff, and I think we need a good stuff.
Speaker 1: Always Welcome to Go ask Allie. I'm Ali Wentworth and
Speaker 1: this season I'm digging into everything I can get my
Speaker 1: hands on. I'm just peeling back the layers and getting dirty.
Speaker 1: And speaking of getting dirty, this episode is about couple envy.
Speaker 1: I think everyone's experienced it at one weight in their life.
Speaker 1: I remember I was living in Los Angeles. I was
Speaker 1: a single young girl driving her Ford Fiesta and I
Speaker 1: had these friends that were married and they were considered
Speaker 1: quote unquote the golden couple. They were both successful actors,
Speaker 1: and they lived in a fabulous house, and they had
Speaker 1: the perfect rescue dogs, and everything they did I thought
Speaker 1: was perfect. They're so in love, they balanced each other out.
Speaker 1: They exude success in every sense of the word. And
Speaker 1: idolized them. And I remember when they got divorced, it
Speaker 1: shook everybody because we all thought they're the golden couple.
Speaker 1: How could they be getting divorced. That's who we compared
Speaker 1: everything too. So I'm sort of fascinated with this idea
Speaker 1: of couple envy, and I have a perfect guest to
Speaker 1: discuss this with me. His name is Dr Joshua Coleman.
Speaker 1: Joshua Coleman is a psychologist, off third and Senior Fellow
Speaker 1: with the Council and Contemporary Families, a non partisan organization
Speaker 1: dedicated to providing the press in public with the latest
Speaker 1: research about American families. Dr Coleman has appeared on numerous
Speaker 1: news programs and TV shows ranging from Sesame Street to
Speaker 1: He's written for The New York Times, The Atlantic, Psychology Today,
Speaker 1: Huffington Post, and Yes many more. Dr Coleman is the
Speaker 1: author of four books, including the Rules of Estrangement, Why
Speaker 1: Adult Children Cut Ties, and how to heal the conflict. Hello.
Speaker 1: Dr Coleman, Hello, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1: You know, I discovered you because I read the Atlantic
Speaker 1: magazine and I read an article you wrote about couple envy,
Speaker 1: which I've always found a very fascinating subject because I
Speaker 1: think everybody's had a version of that, you know, where
Speaker 1: there's been another couple in their life that they think,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, they have everything, They're so perfect, they're
Speaker 1: so happy. The people that I've sort of had those
Speaker 1: experiences with all ended up getting divorced. And it is
Speaker 1: the people that that when they were dating, I went, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a nightmare. They've been married for a hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty years. So right, So talk to me just
Speaker 1: a little bit about couple envy in psychological terms and
Speaker 1: things that you deal with. Sure, I think it's human nature.
Speaker 1: I think we all look at other couples both to
Speaker 1: measure how we fit in. Humans are very status conscious.
Speaker 1: So part of our status is, you know, did I
Speaker 1: marry the right person? Should I be in a better relationship?
Speaker 1: And I still I settle? Could I be even happier?
Speaker 1: So one of the ways that we make that determination
Speaker 1: was by looking at other couples and seeing how they
Speaker 1: do it. But as there's so many things that are
Speaker 1: part of our human nature, they could also create enormous unhappiness.
Speaker 1: They can cause us to idealize, to your point, couples
Speaker 1: that really shouldn't be idea as to a kind of
Speaker 1: presenting themselves in a more idealized fashion than it really exists.
Speaker 1: It can also perpet you wait, a myth about romantic
Speaker 1: relationships that you know, if you just get the right person,
Speaker 1: it's all going to work out well, and hides the
Speaker 1: fact that most really all long term relationships have periods
Speaker 1: of crisis and despair even and and so the problem
Speaker 1: with idealizing other couples is that you're not really seeing
Speaker 1: the real them. It's like looking at an Instagram post. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that that's sort of our culture in general.
Speaker 1: We perpetuate these romantic comedies and romantic movies, and you know,
Speaker 1: romantic novels sell probably bigger than any other book in
Speaker 1: the world. I'm just making that up right, But I
Speaker 1: just want to sound smart. But um, but my point
Speaker 1: is we love romance, particularly are on the French too,
Speaker 1: but we love romance, and so it's very easy to
Speaker 1: get sucked into that hole of like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: what it should look like like, you said, And so
Speaker 1: my husband sitting on the couch eating potato chips, he
Speaker 1: doesn't look like you. Grant. You know, you start to
Speaker 1: and I correct me if I wrong. I think what
Speaker 1: we do then is not look at our relationship as
Speaker 1: a whole, but we start nitpicking our partner. He's not
Speaker 1: good enough, he's not sexy enough, he's not smart enough. Right.
Speaker 1: It's almost like we wish that we could kind of
Speaker 1: just combine all the qualities of our best friends spouses
Speaker 1: are our best friends, and combine them into one perfect partner,
Speaker 1: and you know, the realities You might envy some other
Speaker 1: couple that, oh, they're so adventurous together, they last so
Speaker 1: well together. If I was somebody like that, I'd be happier.
Speaker 1: And maybe you could be with somebody who's funnier or sexier,
Speaker 1: or more intellectual or any of those things. But then
Speaker 1: you'd also have to leave the things that your partner
Speaker 1: currently does contribute to the relationship. So I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of ways that we can quickly forget all
Speaker 1: the assets of the positive qualities that our partner brings
Speaker 1: to our lives. Have you spoken to a lot of
Speaker 1: couples who one of them maybe went off it had
Speaker 1: an affair, but came back because of this reason. They
Speaker 1: thought that this woman or this man was gonna make
Speaker 1: it all better, and it's you know, in the superfici
Speaker 1: a level will be what I've been dreaming of, and
Speaker 1: then they realize, oh my gosh, this person is not
Speaker 1: she is horrible gas and she doesn't read the New
Speaker 1: York Times and whatever it is right or you know,
Speaker 1: even even more telling is that's really high percentage of
Speaker 1: people who leave their marriages for their romantic love interests
Speaker 1: in their context of an affair, even a long term affair.
Speaker 1: Most of those marriages and in divorce because part of
Speaker 1: the value of an affair is to get the prolonged
Speaker 1: energy of the romantic because you're not dealing with reality.
Speaker 1: You can have the best of the other person, but
Speaker 1: you're not having to raise kids with them, or talk
Speaker 1: about budgeting or you know, bills or housework any of
Speaker 1: the other things that create ongoing stress and relationship. So
Speaker 1: it's really easy to imagine that if I just find
Speaker 1: the right person, and part of that is really our
Speaker 1: own denial and naivety about how much how much our
Speaker 1: own personalities, our own impatience or character flaws or anger
Speaker 1: issues or whatever our inadequacies are, how we contribute to
Speaker 1: our own unhappiness with that. Yeah, I wouldn't know what
Speaker 1: that is, because I would so good. Our spouses aren't
Speaker 1: here to defend themselves. Um. You know, I I think
Speaker 1: about before I was married, and I was married late
Speaker 1: in my mid thirties, I dated what I idealized, meaning
Speaker 1: I dated the French director, I dated the British actor,
Speaker 1: And so when I finally met my husband, I knew
Speaker 1: what that was, you know what I mean, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't meet people in my life and I go, God,
Speaker 1: I wonder what that would have been like. And I
Speaker 1: wonder if people who have not had a lot of
Speaker 1: experiences or dated a variety of people, if they got
Speaker 1: into a relationship so early on that they have a
Speaker 1: tendency to idealize other relationships more because they don't have
Speaker 1: any reference. Absolutely and statistically, the younger you are when
Speaker 1: you marry, the more probable the likelihood is of your
Speaker 1: getting divorced. So the later you marry, and there's other
Speaker 1: things as well, the later you marry, the more educated
Speaker 1: you are. The more financially successful you are, the better
Speaker 1: the chances are of your having a longer term successful marriage.
Speaker 1: But but you're absolutely right that not having kind of
Speaker 1: a pool of people to compare the relationship to in
Speaker 1: your partner too is really problematic. I mean, I was
Speaker 1: married and divorced in my twenties, and I met my
Speaker 1: second and current wife have many years in my mid thirties,
Speaker 1: and it was helpful to say, you didn't say my
Speaker 1: final wife, my final wife, I'm I'm going to go
Speaker 1: on right my final thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that prompt. So,
Speaker 1: but having that experience of having been divorced, particularly having
Speaker 1: been divorced with a child, which I wouldn't wish anybody,
Speaker 1: and then getting remarried and having more children, that also
Speaker 1: provides a certain kind of sobriety about what real life
Speaker 1: looks like. And so having all those years prior to
Speaker 1: my second encourage and forever marriage did provide me with
Speaker 1: kind of a pool of people to to compare it
Speaker 1: to in ways that was has been really useful over
Speaker 1: the years. Yeah, I think that when you're young, not
Speaker 1: only do you maybe idealized potential partners, but when you're young,
Speaker 1: you do idealize what you think a relationship is going
Speaker 1: to look like. You want it to be the fairytale version,
Speaker 1: you know, And so people get shocked and astounded when
Speaker 1: they realized that, oh that he doesn't pick up his clothes,
Speaker 1: or he does this, or he does that. And then
Speaker 1: I think they throw in the towel too early because
Speaker 1: of that, because of this kind of couple envy and
Speaker 1: idealism when it comes to what a marriage is supposed
Speaker 1: to look like. Now, I think that's absolutely right. You know,
Speaker 1: therapists talk about the three stages of marriage versus infatuation,
Speaker 1: which is really what the whole rom com novel and
Speaker 1: movies predicated upon. You just meet the right person and
Speaker 1: everything just works. Then there's a period of disillusion which
Speaker 1: happens after the period of infatuation, whereas off for you're
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, this person isn't perfect. You both
Speaker 1: stop being so perfect for the other. You start your
Speaker 1: own character flaws reveal, uh, their character flaws revealed. Conflict occurs,
Speaker 1: and you either get good at managing conflict and working
Speaker 1: through the conflict or you break up. And if you
Speaker 1: don't break up and you learn how to work through
Speaker 1: the conflict and learn how to grieve that this is
Speaker 1: not going to be the perfect prince charming and princess marriage,
Speaker 1: that that conflict and difficulties is just part of the picture.
Speaker 1: Then you go on too mature love, which really incorporates
Speaker 1: that that your partner isn't perfect, that they have flaws
Speaker 1: just like everybody else does, but so do you, and
Speaker 1: all an enormous value can come from that. One of
Speaker 1: the things I noticed, particularly now with social media is
Speaker 1: this kind of obsession with the perfect couple. And what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is, you know, you'll see a
Speaker 1: celebrity couple on social media and fans will hashtag goals,
Speaker 1: you know, all that kind of stuff. And even to
Speaker 1: myself and my husband, a few people have said, during
Speaker 1: the course of our marriage, which is past twenty years now,
Speaker 1: um oh, I just you know, I just want to
Speaker 1: have a marriage like yours, And I go, don't say that,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And it's not it's not
Speaker 1: a slight to my husband, but it's like, no, it's
Speaker 1: we're sitting at a dinner in a really nice French
Speaker 1: restaurant and we're holding each other's hand because we're in
Speaker 1: a good mood, you know, but this is don't let
Speaker 1: this fool you. But I make a joke about it
Speaker 1: all the time, and because I don't like people to
Speaker 1: look at us through that lens at all, you know,
Speaker 1: because then I think are reperpetuating something that isn't true
Speaker 1: right now, I think we do a disservice to other
Speaker 1: couples if you do perpetuate the myth that you have
Speaker 1: it all together. I mean, my wife and have a
Speaker 1: very strong marriage, and that they were numerous times in
Speaker 1: the early years of our raising children that we came
Speaker 1: very close to breaking up, and it was really only
Speaker 1: because neither of us wanted to be divorced parents that
Speaker 1: we hung there, and then we eventually figured out how
Speaker 1: to work it out. And now we have a really
Speaker 1: strong marriage, Which doesn't mean we never fight and we're
Speaker 1: free of conflict. It just means that that the significant
Speaker 1: issues that really were incredibly challenging in the first part
Speaker 1: of the marriage are far less challenging and more in
Speaker 1: hand at this point. Yeah. I was thinking earlier today
Speaker 1: about magazine sales and how kind of corporate America feeds
Speaker 1: on this notion, And I was thinking about years ago
Speaker 1: when Brad Pitt was doing this movie with Angelina Jolie
Speaker 1: and his marriage with Jennifer Aniston broke up, and I
Speaker 1: remember reading that that triangle sold more magazines in the
Speaker 1: history of magazines, and I even remember people were discussing
Speaker 1: it like they knew them, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like I can't believe he left jan they were perfect
Speaker 1: and you know, or of course he left Jen look
Speaker 1: at her, you know. And I remember thinking, this is ludicrous.
Speaker 1: We're having discussions about people we don't know. But the
Speaker 1: next layer of that is is, wait a minute. They
Speaker 1: encompass what I thought was the perfect relationship, and so
Speaker 1: if they're not together, then what does that say about mine?
Speaker 1: Right exactly? It makes sure worried that yours is more fragile.
Speaker 1: There's an interesting study done about about that. NT show
Speaker 1: that you can conclude positive things or negative things about
Speaker 1: a couple that's either doing better or worse than you.
Speaker 1: If a couple is doing better than you, if your
Speaker 1: state of mind is well, we can aspire to that
Speaker 1: we could be even better. Or you could look at
Speaker 1: a couple is worse than doing worse than you and think, well,
Speaker 1: thank god, we're not them. So it really depends a
Speaker 1: lot on your mindset and kind of how you're thinking
Speaker 1: about your own relationship and where you want to go
Speaker 1: with it. But one of the things I want to
Speaker 1: emphasize is that some people just aren't happy with anybody.
Speaker 1: I mean, I see this a lot in my practice.
Speaker 1: They're just they're not going to be happy with anybody
Speaker 1: because they're either to hurt from their own childhood issues,
Speaker 1: they've been too disappointed in life their expectations about what
Speaker 1: somebody else can reasonably repair from their own childhood hurts
Speaker 1: and traumas, and so they end up sending away perfectly
Speaker 1: good partners or not valuing all the great ways that
Speaker 1: their partner does contribute to their lives. Yes, I have
Speaker 1: a few friends like that. Who you know, People say, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you set her up? She's beautiful, she's smart,
Speaker 1: she's successful, And I go, yeah, that's great on paper,
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. So, I mean the on paper stuff never
Speaker 1: never works. In my opinion, No, it doesn't work. And
Speaker 1: that's that's the problem with the early part of the infatuation.
Speaker 1: As everybody's on best behavior, they're consciously and unconsciously kind
Speaker 1: of tailoring their own personalities to what that other person needs.
Speaker 1: You know, the person said, oh, my last boyfriend never
Speaker 1: communicated about their feelings. The guys probably going to communicate
Speaker 1: a lot about his feelings, even if he's not a
Speaker 1: great communicator. But once that period of idealization and infatuation
Speaker 1: whereas off, then the real self emerges and then it's
Speaker 1: a different story. So those are kind of infatuation addicts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as soon as that juice is run out, they kind
Speaker 1: of move on to the next thing. Exactly. Yeah, they're done.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think many marriages when that that
Speaker 1: kind of infatuation phases over, they go, oh, I guess
Speaker 1: we're not in love anymore because my arm pits aren't sweating,
Speaker 1: my heart isn't beating hard. But that's really just because
Speaker 1: it's turning into mature love. If it has all the
Speaker 1: scaffolding it needs and it's time for a short break, great,
Speaker 1: let's get back to it one of the things, and
Speaker 1: tell me what you think about this. One of the
Speaker 1: things I've learned in my old age is that women
Speaker 1: have a tendency now that we let our guard down,
Speaker 1: we're really honest with each other. And I found that
Speaker 1: to be incredibly therapeutic, not only for me, but for
Speaker 1: the other women. Um so, I I know that you've
Speaker 1: talked about when groups of people have gotten together, Like
Speaker 1: if you had a bunch of married couples that got
Speaker 1: together and started really discussing why they look at other
Speaker 1: people and are envious, they start to realize, oh, this
Speaker 1: is common. Correct, absolutely, And that's what's valuable about having
Speaker 1: close friends that you can confide in. And I heard
Speaker 1: my wife the other day on the phone comparing notes
Speaker 1: with one of her best friends about who had the
Speaker 1: sloppiest husband. I was like, I thought, one, that's therapeutic
Speaker 1: for you, dear, but but it actually is good for
Speaker 1: the marriage because you know, they can they can kind
Speaker 1: of bond around that they can see that they're not
Speaker 1: alone in it, and you know, for friends and said, oh,
Speaker 1: my husband's just so neat, he's perfect in every way.
Speaker 1: I mean, she would have probably come home and been
Speaker 1: mad at me. And so having close friends that you
Speaker 1: can confide in here with their trials and tribulations are
Speaker 1: is really really important and useful. Yeah, because you you
Speaker 1: find yourself saying you think that's bad dot dot dot
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And also I think what you something you
Speaker 1: wrote once was that otherwise if everybody puts on this facade,
Speaker 1: you come um and weaponize it towards your mate because
Speaker 1: you're not connected the way they are or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: you're not sexual enough, you're not fun enough, you're not
Speaker 1: adventurous enough, if you're not communicative enough like my best
Speaker 1: friend's husband or wife is. And if you would only
Speaker 1: be like that, I would be happy. And yeah, that
Speaker 1: can really be a serious problem. But people do use that,
Speaker 1: they do weaponize it. They do. I mean, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: guilty of it. I've said to my husband, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you know what so and so did. He took her
Speaker 1: to Paris for her birthday. That's amazing. Anyway, thank you
Speaker 1: for the card. Um. And I actually found that with
Speaker 1: my daughters. There was one Mother's Day years ago when
Speaker 1: they were young. Um, it was Mother's Day and nothing happened.
Speaker 1: It was a non day. And I finally told my
Speaker 1: husband aside, and I said, it's Mother's Day, but you're
Speaker 1: the one that has to show them. And I don't
Speaker 1: care about Mother's Day. What I want to teach them
Speaker 1: is to think about others to give, you know, And
Speaker 1: I said they should write me a card or paint
Speaker 1: me a picture or something, and he didn't realize it
Speaker 1: was sort of his responsibility, and they ran to CBS.
Speaker 1: I got a carnation and some post it's that said
Speaker 1: I love you, mommy, and you're golden. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: realized that I had two choices. I could be really
Speaker 1: angry at him and the kids and mope around and
Speaker 1: say like, you know, it's Mother's Day and you know
Speaker 1: Sarah got two dozen roses and and her kids brought
Speaker 1: her breakfast in bed. Or I can say, hey, this
Speaker 1: has been a big family fail, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: explain to you why so that next Mother's Day we're
Speaker 1: not gonna have this problem. And it was very effective.
Speaker 1: That's good, and I think it's a good way to
Speaker 1: use kind of these um comparisons. Is a teachable moment
Speaker 1: and sort of assume good intentions in your partner and
Speaker 1: not treated as some huge character flower character fail and
Speaker 1: their parton show them that what's meaningful to you about
Speaker 1: it and using non critical language. And it sounds like
Speaker 1: you did a good job of of doing that. And
Speaker 1: he was able to respond. I mean, he didn't go
Speaker 1: all the way, but he went far enough for you
Speaker 1: to feel like he was taking it seriously. He went
Speaker 1: to CBS, which was nice, that's pretty far. Well, it's
Speaker 1: a mile. Um. But I found that in my marriage
Speaker 1: it is the communication because I found many times that
Speaker 1: my husband would say I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1: I was scared, you know. So every year now my birthday,
Speaker 1: he'll say, what do you want for your birthday? Because
Speaker 1: I don't want to make a mistake, so just tell me.
Speaker 1: And I don't say, what do you mean, I don't
Speaker 1: want anything? Stop it. He goes, you do want stuff?
Speaker 1: And please don't make me guess, Please don't put me
Speaker 1: through this. But um, I want to go back to
Speaker 1: the talking with the friends because he is not my
Speaker 1: best friend. And I think in marriage it's okay to
Speaker 1: say my mate is not my best friend, because I
Speaker 1: used to see it in movies like oh my god,
Speaker 1: he's my best we're best friends. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't I think we're best friends, you know. And
Speaker 1: I realized that because a lot of the stuff that
Speaker 1: me and my girlfriends like to chew on, my husband doesn't.
Speaker 1: If somebody's getting a divorce, I want to talk about
Speaker 1: that for three days straight. Why why are they get
Speaker 1: a divorced whereas my husband's like, oh, that's so sad,
Speaker 1: and that's it. So I realized, oh, why put that
Speaker 1: pressure on my partner when there are people that will
Speaker 1: chew on this for three days with me. You know,
Speaker 1: my female and male friends are providing such a great service.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of times people say what kind
Speaker 1: of marital advice do you have, and I say, don't
Speaker 1: go into marriage thinking oh, this is my everything. I
Speaker 1: don't need anybody else, because you're really setting them up
Speaker 1: for a fall. Yeah. I think this idea that that
Speaker 1: one partner should be able to fulfill all of your needs,
Speaker 1: your intellectual needs, you need for humor, for play, for adventure,
Speaker 1: for venting, for compassion. It really Britain's marriage and that's
Speaker 1: why people who have more friends tend to do that
Speaker 1: are in marriage. You're not expecting that person to fulfill
Speaker 1: every need. The interesting thing that is that for most
Speaker 1: and men, their wives or romantic partners are their best friend,
Speaker 1: if not their only friend. And so sometimes I hear
Speaker 1: women complaining about the fact that kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: can you kind of get some other friends and I'm
Speaker 1: not the only person that you're talking to or leaning on.
Speaker 1: But women do tend to have many more friends, and
Speaker 1: I think it's really important for both men and women
Speaker 1: to talk about their relationships with other people. That is
Speaker 1: a common thing. I hear that the men don't have
Speaker 1: enough friends. It is, Yeah, it's it's interesting. I once
Speaker 1: said to my husband, if you came home and caught
Speaker 1: me in bed with anybody, what would your first reaction be, Like?
Speaker 1: Who would you call? Meaning who do you consider your
Speaker 1: best friend? He said, I would call one of your
Speaker 1: friends and say, what the hell is going on? And
Speaker 1: I said, okay. So I do notice that a lot
Speaker 1: like my friends will say, you know, can't you do
Speaker 1: something with somebody else, male or female just to get
Speaker 1: some friends? Right? Yeah, just don't lean on me so much.
Speaker 1: So much I think for a minute has to do
Speaker 1: with ideals around masculinity that I think a lot of
Speaker 1: men still sadly have a problem being vulnerable and talking
Speaker 1: to their friends about their fears or their anxieties, the
Speaker 1: ways they feel like they're failing in life or you know,
Speaker 1: things aren't going well, and so they feel like their
Speaker 1: wives are going to be more sensitive to it, so
Speaker 1: they were inclined to confide in them. But I think
Speaker 1: men who can do that. UM, just they're just happier,
Speaker 1: They just feel more resilient because they just get more support.
Speaker 1: And they also see again the same thing that we're
Speaker 1: talking about, that these issues are just part of human nature.
Speaker 1: There is no perfect person in perfect marriage out there,
Speaker 1: and aspiring to that's going to really make for an
Speaker 1: unhappy life. I'm gonna turn the page now and talk
Speaker 1: about sex because I want to, um, because I think
Speaker 1: obviously it's an integral part of a relationship, but I
Speaker 1: think there's sex envy too when it comes to a couple, definitely.
Speaker 1: And I experienced something years ago. I was with a
Speaker 1: bunch of people having dinner and somebody said, how often
Speaker 1: do you and your husband have sex? And I thought
Speaker 1: about it and I said, I don't like four times
Speaker 1: a week, maybe more for on vacation. And this was
Speaker 1: women I was with. They all kind of gasped and
Speaker 1: they got they did, and they got really angry at me.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, oh my god, amazing, It was like
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And I
Speaker 1: was like, no, why is that is that good? And
Speaker 1: I thought, oh god, I shouldn't talk about this, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And I was not bragging. And
Speaker 1: from that day on we still get teased by these people,
Speaker 1: are you gonna go up sex? You know? And I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean borderline bullied, And I thought, wow, what are
Speaker 1: they imagining? I'm like, it doesn't mean that we're strapped
Speaker 1: to a swing with a bowl of frosting and some feathers,
Speaker 1: but it But it was interesting to me that I
Speaker 1: saw how angry people got at the idea that they
Speaker 1: were not having as much sex. So what do you
Speaker 1: see with couples when it comes to sex envy? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right. I think good question I
Speaker 1: often get from couples is are we having enough sex?
Speaker 1: We only have sex once a month? Is that bad?
Speaker 1: You know, we used to have a lot in the beginning,
Speaker 1: we're not having it a lot now. Does that mean
Speaker 1: we're on a bad path? That are romances ending? And
Speaker 1: you know, my opinion about it as a couple of
Speaker 1: therapists is that it's really an issue of how happy
Speaker 1: are you. I don't think that there's really any ideal.
Speaker 1: I worked with couples and have friends who are couples
Speaker 1: who hardly ever have sex, but they have a great
Speaker 1: marriages and they're both perfectly happy with that, and that's
Speaker 1: not an issue that's probably not as common. I think
Speaker 1: more commonly, one person really wants to have it, the
Speaker 1: other one doesn't, and so they kind of accommodate that
Speaker 1: or accept it. Um. But I think most people have
Speaker 1: no idea how much sex other people are having, so
Speaker 1: they have these often I think inflated ideas of how
Speaker 1: much sex other couples are having, and it can be
Speaker 1: something that's really weaponized and it's a problem. Yeah, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not it's not fifty shades of gray over here.
Speaker 1: But um, and so what what what do you say
Speaker 1: to the couples that sort of complain about that If
Speaker 1: they're both in sync, it works, right? Is it? Is
Speaker 1: it a question of there's one person that feels like
Speaker 1: they're not getting enough or they're getting too much? You know?
Speaker 1: I always think of the Woody Allen movie Annie Hall,
Speaker 1: when there's a split screen and the therapist say to
Speaker 1: each of them, how much sex are you having? And
Speaker 1: she says all the time, and he says hardly. Ever,
Speaker 1: so it was three times a week exactly. Um. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean if if the couple is talking about it,
Speaker 1: then the issue is sort of For the person who
Speaker 1: is feeling rejected sexually or frustrated, Do they worry that
Speaker 1: they're unattractive? Do they feel unlove? Do they feel hurt?
Speaker 1: How do they translate those feelings into the marriage? Do
Speaker 1: they get angry? Do they get critical? Do they withdraw?
Speaker 1: For the person who's not being sexual. Is it an
Speaker 1: expression of a desire for more distance or boundaries or
Speaker 1: maybe it's just ang and hormones and of writing are
Speaker 1: the ways that low sexual desire can manifest, So it
Speaker 1: has to be part of an overall approach that's kind
Speaker 1: of comprehensive to what's going on in the sexual life
Speaker 1: of the couple. I think um, I think in movies
Speaker 1: and television and books, particular comedies, when you get to
Speaker 1: be a certain age, the joke is, you know, we're
Speaker 1: in like long night shirts and night hats, you know,
Speaker 1: and like there's no sex anymore. But you know, now
Speaker 1: we're living much longer, so our sex lives need to
Speaker 1: sustain themselves. So would you ever advise any of your
Speaker 1: couple of patients if somebody is feeling like they're not
Speaker 1: getting as much sexual satisfaction as they like, do you
Speaker 1: ever say to the other person, do you just got
Speaker 1: to step it up. You may not be in the mood,
Speaker 1: but you'll end up having it okay time. Um, I
Speaker 1: mean it's harder as a male therapist. Typically it's more
Speaker 1: of the woman in the couple that has a lower
Speaker 1: sexual desire than the guides. So we're cominly, I see
Speaker 1: that there's an issue. So it's it's I have to
Speaker 1: be sort of more mindful and thoughtful as a male
Speaker 1: therapists to say, well, just do it, you know, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's but yes, I yes, so so it's more
Speaker 1: alike helping her think about what kind of the advantages
Speaker 1: and the disadvantages. I mean, once it's clear that it's
Speaker 1: not an expression of some other underlying complaint about the person,
Speaker 1: it's clear that it's not and it's just a matter
Speaker 1: of desire. Sometimes it's a matter of education that for
Speaker 1: women in particular, kind of the ambient desire that a
Speaker 1: lot of men continue to have, uh you know, well
Speaker 1: into their forties and fifties, a lot of women describe
Speaker 1: not particularly having that and actually needing to have sex
Speaker 1: to restimulate that desire. SAW sometimes talk about some of
Speaker 1: that research and some of those ideas and see if
Speaker 1: there's ways to to think about it in a more
Speaker 1: to your point and more kind of a practical strategic point, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, if your partner is that much happier if
Speaker 1: you do have sex with that much uny happier if
Speaker 1: you don't, maybe you can think about it in a
Speaker 1: more kind of strategic way rather than purely making it
Speaker 1: about win of desire. Right, we'll be right back, and
Speaker 1: we're back. I'm going to now turn the page two.
Speaker 1: Couples and positivity, meaning you know, we're living longer, so
Speaker 1: our marriages are going to be longer. So from your
Speaker 1: experience as a couple therapists, what are some of the
Speaker 1: things that you not only say to your patients, but
Speaker 1: you would say to me here on the podcast. These
Speaker 1: are things that I think are helpful for any couple
Speaker 1: to sustain a relationship. I think knowing your own character
Speaker 1: flaws is important and to work on them. So, for example,
Speaker 1: one of my character flaws is I tend to be
Speaker 1: kind of more impatient and quick to anger, and so
Speaker 1: over the years had to really learn how to manage
Speaker 1: that to not say the first thing that comes to
Speaker 1: to my mind, my wife does something that was really
Speaker 1: irritating or are frustrating, and to learn how to communicate
Speaker 1: in a productive, non critical, non blaming, non shaming language.
Speaker 1: You know. The marital researcher John Gottman talks about the
Speaker 1: importance of avoiding harsh startups, so conversations in the way
Speaker 1: that they begin. So if you want to talk to
Speaker 1: your partner about something that's really important to you, do
Speaker 1: it when you're in an emotional place where you can
Speaker 1: say it in a kindly, loving, affectionate way. That's hugely
Speaker 1: important being appreciative. It's so easy and long term relationships
Speaker 1: to lose sight of all the ways that your partner
Speaker 1: is contributing to your life in a positive way. So
Speaker 1: I think daily appreciations they don't have to be anything
Speaker 1: to do amazing, just daily things that you like, love, admire,
Speaker 1: or appreciate in your partner an others. To know their psychology.
Speaker 1: If your partners somebody who's very easily rejected or really
Speaker 1: easily feels criticized or guilt tripped, to be mindful of that.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that you say things that bother you. Yes,
Speaker 1: So for example, if your partners really sensitive, very fearful
Speaker 1: of rechection, you can't necessarily completely protect them from that. Like,
Speaker 1: let's say every time you go out with your friends
Speaker 1: your partner feels rejected. It doesn't mean you have to
Speaker 1: stop going out with your friends, in fact, it would
Speaker 1: probably be a mistake to do it, but it may
Speaker 1: mean that you have to spend a little bit of
Speaker 1: extra time empathizing with why your partner feels that way,
Speaker 1: either when you're leaving or when you're coming back, and
Speaker 1: not suggesting that somebody engage in some super long drawn
Speaker 1: out thing, because that would be unfair to ask a
Speaker 1: one's partner, but to just be mindful of how your
Speaker 1: behavior really impacts that person. Similarly, if your partner really
Speaker 1: feels easily criticized, that doesn't mean that you can't have
Speaker 1: any complaints, but it may mean that you have to
Speaker 1: to preface your complainants with a bunch of positives that
Speaker 1: you know. I think you're a great partner, I think
Speaker 1: you're a great parent. However, this is something that's been
Speaker 1: bothering me. Put it into eye statements. You know, when
Speaker 1: you do X, I feel why rather than you're such
Speaker 1: a selfish, terrible person. I think that's a very it's
Speaker 1: an important point, but I think some couples are too
Speaker 1: conflict avoidant, and marriages can end, and long term relationships
Speaker 1: can end from a death by a thousand cuts by
Speaker 1: people not saying enough of what bothers them. So I
Speaker 1: really encourage part of what I do is a couple
Speaker 1: of therapists. Let's just get it all out on the table.
Speaker 1: I will help you say it attack the way, but
Speaker 1: I want you to be as bluntly honest as you
Speaker 1: can possibly be, because those are usually the reasons that
Speaker 1: marriages end. Is because people aren't being direct enough about
Speaker 1: what they dislike or want the other partner to change.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that the partner is going to change,
Speaker 1: but at least it's out into the open. It provides
Speaker 1: an opportunity. And finally, and related to that, is that
Speaker 1: I think good relationships require fifty self interest or self
Speaker 1: centeredness and total dedication to their partner. And if you're
Speaker 1: too self centered, then you'll burn out your partner. But
Speaker 1: if you're too selfless, bring yourself out. So I think
Speaker 1: a good balance at both of those are critically important.
Speaker 1: You know, I remember a few years ago the New
Speaker 1: York Times ran a piece about what you were saying
Speaker 1: about appreciation and they said for seven days. Each day,
Speaker 1: you know, do this thing, and one was hold your
Speaker 1: partner's hand. The second day was say one nice thing
Speaker 1: to them. And my husband and I did it just
Speaker 1: for fun. I mean it was the smallest things, but
Speaker 1: it actually worked. And you forget when you've been married
Speaker 1: for a long time to take your partner's hand or
Speaker 1: to kiss them for no reason, right, And so sometimes
Speaker 1: it comes down to the smallest, most fundamental things that
Speaker 1: you lose sight of over time. So absolutely, yeah, the
Speaker 1: smallest seemingly inconsequential things can actually have a lot of
Speaker 1: power and a lot of value and a lot of meaning.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you might think, oh, they well, they know
Speaker 1: they know I love them, they know I think I'm attractive, whatever,
Speaker 1: but they actually might not. And even if they do know,
Speaker 1: it still feels good. It's just an expression of affection,
Speaker 1: which who doesn't want that some level. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: even sexually. Again, we're not going to bring back the
Speaker 1: swing and the feathers, but there is something to even
Speaker 1: mixing that up in in a tiniest way, you know.
Speaker 1: For instance, like you were saying, if you're a woman
Speaker 1: making the first move that night unexpectedly in a different room,
Speaker 1: or you know, if the kids aren't hard, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: those things actually can go a long way. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I think you're reising an important point that some degree
Speaker 1: of variation and variety really can be the specify. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that every single night or what are
Speaker 1: we going to do differently for having yeah? Oh god, yeah,
Speaker 1: the exhausting Yeah, yeah, I'm out. Yeah, but I think
Speaker 1: you're earlier point that a lot of it's just kind
Speaker 1: of mundane and every day and you know, it's not
Speaker 1: like every time is going to be amazing and incredibly
Speaker 1: exciting and world transforming. It's just sometimes you just have
Speaker 1: sex and it's over and you probably feel closer and great.
Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing is connection, connection, exactly in all
Speaker 1: its various forms. Yes, exactly. I think that's that's a
Speaker 1: really great way of summarizing all of this. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: disconnection can really feel hurtful and alienating. I mean, some
Speaker 1: people people have very different appetites for connection. It's the
Speaker 1: other part. Some people love it and thrive on it.
Speaker 1: Other people want more distance, f more isolation and the like.
Speaker 1: So that's also has to be something that's worked out
Speaker 1: in a couple. But if you disconnect, you lose battery
Speaker 1: and then you've got no power. Okay, So I've asked
Speaker 1: you a million questions. Now it is your time, Dr
Speaker 1: Coleman to ask me anything you want. Okay, you already
Speaker 1: know how many times I have sex a week, so
Speaker 1: you don't can ask that question. And I am impressed
Speaker 1: beyond words. I'm not angry. I'm just impressed. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: curious if you have any kind of a daily habit
Speaker 1: that you do the it maintains your happiness or well
Speaker 1: being or mental health or that kind of thing. That's
Speaker 1: a great question. Um. I have a recent one which
Speaker 1: I discovered during COVID, which was I wasn't really exercising
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. In fact, I was that huge
Speaker 1: statistic that was eating and baking bread every day during COVID. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The funny thing is that most men worked out during COVID.
Speaker 1: They used that time to get in shape. And most women,
Speaker 1: this is real data, just ate themselves today, you know,
Speaker 1: they were just like anyway, So I have this hound dog,
Speaker 1: this rescue dog, and I started walking with him during COVID,
Speaker 1: like two and a half hour walks, which I never
Speaker 1: had that kind of time before, and I found it
Speaker 1: to be so therapeutic, Like for my head, it didn't
Speaker 1: even matter to me that I was maybe losing weight
Speaker 1: or and getting in better shape. I started writing in
Speaker 1: the notes of my iPhone because I would have ideas
Speaker 1: for a TV show or thought or oh I haven't
Speaker 1: touched based with this person. And now I've made it
Speaker 1: part of my routine. I have to get up really early,
Speaker 1: but I do it every day, and when I miss it,
Speaker 1: um it has to be severe weather or I have
Speaker 1: to be somewhere early. I really miss it. And I
Speaker 1: don't miss it again for any kind of in an
Speaker 1: ego way, like oh my god, my ass is getting flabby.
Speaker 1: I miss it because it's the one time a day
Speaker 1: that my head can really breathe, you know, and I'm
Speaker 1: not bombarded by emails and people and kids and everything else.
Speaker 1: So that has been a huge thing. What about for you, No,
Speaker 1: it's the exact same. Yeah, well yeah, I got on
Speaker 1: a daily run for thirty minutes rain of shine, and
Speaker 1: it's the one thing that if I do it, I
Speaker 1: can check the box that you know that that's gonna
Speaker 1: maximize my probability of a good day. It's not going
Speaker 1: to guarantee it, but it's definitely going to increase the
Speaker 1: probability of it. So it's interesting that you have the
Speaker 1: same discovery. Yeah, at least it will start. Well, whatever
Speaker 1: happens to the rest of the day, you know, fate.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Dr Coleman. This has been such
Speaker 1: a pleasure to talk to you about all of this. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you for me too. So I think I'm going
Speaker 1: to quit couple envy to social media because I think
Speaker 1: that when we see a couple and we think, wow,
Speaker 1: they really have it all, it is very curated, just
Speaker 1: like social media, because we are seeing that couple in
Speaker 1: magazines maybe or if we know them, we're seeing them
Speaker 1: at a gathering where they're maybe holding hands or they're
Speaker 1: displaying their quote unquote happy situation. We're not getting to
Speaker 1: see them in a fight. We're not seeing her sleeping
Speaker 1: on the couch because he's snoring. We are not seeing
Speaker 1: her bleaching his underwear for obvious reasons. We're not seeing
Speaker 1: him having to take a walk because she's nagging him consistently.
Speaker 1: We're only seeing this picture perfect scene. So the next
Speaker 1: time you see a couple and you think, oh, hashtag
Speaker 1: couple goals, just remember you are only seeing the beauty,
Speaker 1: you are not seeing the beast. Thank you for listening
Speaker 1: to Go Ask Alli. As always, check out our show notes,
Speaker 1: be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast, and
Speaker 1: follow me on social media on Twitter at Ali e
Speaker 1: Wentworth and on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth. Now.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to ask me a question or suggest
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