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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Sunday, August thirty first, and

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Speaker 2: listen everybody, it's Labor Day weekend. We hope you're having

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Speaker 2: a wonderful one. Thank you for being with us. I'm

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Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker, joined of course by analyst Body Movin. Courtney

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Speaker 2: Armstrong will be joining us later in the show, but

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Speaker 2: right now we also have Joseph Scott Morgan who's jumping

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Speaker 2: in our very favorite forensics expert, also the host of

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Speaker 2: Body Bags, and he and Body are going to really

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Speaker 2: unpack the forensics in one of those cases that we've

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Speaker 2: all been following for so long, the Delphi murders back

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Speaker 2: in the news again.

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Speaker 3: Really important documentary Red just came out.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys had to check to

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Speaker 2: see it, and it really does shed light on this

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Speaker 2: recent guilt conviction in the case. So the Delphi murders

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Speaker 2: is something that Body has been living and breathing so

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Speaker 2: closely for so many years, baddie, do you want to

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Speaker 2: catch us up a little bit on just the broad

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Speaker 2: strokes of this hideous case.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of broad strokes, So this

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Speaker 3: is going to take a little bit of setting up.

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Speaker 3: This happened in Delphi, Indiana. This was in February of

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, so you have to put yourself back eight

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Speaker 3: years ago. I'm on Facebook, and you know, I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling,

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Speaker 3: looking at the cute pictures of the cats and stuff.

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Speaker 3: And there's an advertisement for a Facebook group and it's

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Speaker 3: called catch the Snapchat Killer. And I, you know, immediate, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm in, let's go look at this. This is right

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Speaker 3: up my alley EO, exactly right. It was I think

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Speaker 3: February seventeenth. I think it was twenty seventeen that I

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Speaker 3: saw this group. I joined this group and there was

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Speaker 3: a photo and audio and the photo was like this

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Speaker 3: really blurry guy all right, And all we knew is

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Speaker 3: that there were two dead little girls thirteen and fourteen,

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Speaker 3: Abigail Williams and Liberty German, out of Delphi, Indiana, and

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Speaker 3: this photo of this guy. And we heard these words

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Speaker 3: guys down the hill, or actually I think at first

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Speaker 3: it was just down the hill and that's all. We

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Speaker 3: had this really blurry photo. But I was all in, right,

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Speaker 3: this is exactly what I'm in for. So a little

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Speaker 3: bit of background. This was February twenty seventeen. It was

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Speaker 3: unseasonably warm in Delphi, and Delphi is a really small town, right,

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Speaker 3: like three thousand people, three thousand people out there. It's

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Speaker 3: very small. Everybody knows everybody, and it's unseasonably warm. The

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Speaker 3: girls have the day off from school because they're like

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Speaker 3: catching up on a snow day, and they decide to

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Speaker 3: go to the park and take photos, you know, along

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Speaker 3: the trail, you know, get some cute pictures for their

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Speaker 3: Snapchat and Instagram stories and whatnot. So they go to

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Speaker 3: the trails and you know, they had their sister drop

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Speaker 3: them off, Liberty's Libby. Her dad was going to pick

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Speaker 3: them up at three thirty. Everything was arranged and by

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Speaker 3: the way, this was very normal.

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Speaker 2: This was nothing outside of the normal other than this

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Speaker 2: random day off from.

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Speaker 3: School, right, completely normal. So Kelsey, who is Libby's sister,

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Speaker 3: drops them off at the Monan high Bridge Trail. The

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Speaker 3: trailhead at about one thirty five pm. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: partially wooded. It's got an old elevated like wooden train bridge,

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Speaker 3: and it's kind of spooky, but it's kind of like

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Speaker 3: a place where people go and take photos and look

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Speaker 3: at fish and you know, it's a really beautiful place.

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Speaker 3: So they get dropped off about one thirty at approximately

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Speaker 3: two oh seven, So about a half an hour later,

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Speaker 3: Libby posts a snapchat photo of Abby walking across the

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Speaker 3: bridge and an empty photo of the bridge, and so

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Speaker 3: those get posted to her snapchat around two o seven. Well,

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Speaker 3: shortly after that snapchat post, Libby's phone captured something else,

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Speaker 3: something that you know, really know what he was expecting,

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Speaker 3: and it was video and audio of a man approaching

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Speaker 3: the girls on this bridge. And this is where, you know,

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Speaker 3: things take a really menacing turn. And again we get

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Speaker 3: this audio guys down the hill. Now we're at the

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Speaker 3: time we don't believe that he's directing the girls down

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Speaker 3: the hill where they had met their unfortunate demise. And

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Speaker 3: to that end, he.

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Speaker 2: Becomes kind of known as bridge guy. Right, this is

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Speaker 2: like kind of makes worldwide news at that point, very blurry.

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Speaker 2: He seems a little on the older side. I mean again,

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Speaker 2: blurry lurking. It does appear that he's like lurking over

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Speaker 2: this bridge. It kind of reminded me of like stand

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Speaker 2: By Me, the movie stand By Me, where they're running

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Speaker 2: across that bridge. You know, picture that it's beautiful, but

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Speaker 2: it's populated, it's a commonplace to go.

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Speaker 3: This is not right completely remote. So that's around two

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Speaker 3: thirty around. Okay, So three point fifteen comes and goes.

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Speaker 3: The Libby's dad comes, can't find them. He's making phone calls.

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Speaker 3: He's calling you know them, He's calling Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 3: He's calling Kelsey, Libby's sister. He's calling girls Wears girls.

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Speaker 3: While around five point thirty, the police are finally contacted

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Speaker 3: that they can't find the girls, and a search ensues

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Speaker 3: until around midnight. Around noon the next day, February fourteenth,

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Speaker 3: two volunteers found the girl's body on a private property

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Speaker 3: about a half a mile from the bridge across the

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Speaker 3: Deer Creek, and you know, the case was very quickly

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Speaker 3: deemed a double homicide. Early police statements confirmed that evidence

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Speaker 3: found at the scene, including the audio and video on

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Speaker 3: Libby's phone, suggested that the girls had been kind of

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Speaker 3: confronted and led to that location. Investigators initially withheld a

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Speaker 3: lot of details in this case, but it did launch

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Speaker 3: what would be one of the most publicized murder investigations

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Speaker 3: in small town US history.

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Speaker 2: And outsider looking at that time, this is every human's

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Speaker 2: worst nightmare. Again, these are a thirteen year old, fourteen

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Speaker 2: year old. They're best best friends. They're just going out

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Speaker 2: to spend the day outdoors. You know, everything everyone's getting

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Speaker 2: in courage to do. Get off your phones, get off

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Speaker 2: your iPads, get off you know, not playing games, get outside, right,

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Speaker 2: nothing uncommon. We saw the interview with Libby's sister who

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Speaker 2: dropped them off, and she just you know, gave them

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Speaker 2: their sweatshirts, made sure they had them, and off they

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Speaker 2: went to kind of play right school. So the idea

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Speaker 2: that they're being missed, or potentially I should say, the

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Speaker 2: idea that they're being led down this hill into what,

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Speaker 2: you know, we we find out to be pretty harrowing circumstances.

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Speaker 3: Remember, they're on these train tracks, right, They're on these

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Speaker 3: train tracks, and they're elevated. It's very high up, you know,

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Speaker 3: And they were found down this hill and across the river.

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Speaker 3: So they were literally led down a hill and that's

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Speaker 3: the audio that we heard for the really the only

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Speaker 3: audio we had for almost seven years. We didn't get

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Speaker 3: the full Bridge Guy video is what we're gonna call it.

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Speaker 3: There was a video that Libby had taken with her phone,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't get the full video until the case

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Speaker 3: was totally adjudicated, which it has been now. Pretty short video. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so the girls were found around noon on the fourteenth,

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Speaker 3: and then of course it turns into a crime scene.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well listen just the real time of it. You know,

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Speaker 2: the girls are discovered, you know, and they've met an

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Speaker 2: untimely death. It's Valentine's Day, right, imagine that we could

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Speaker 2: all probably picture where we were on that Valentine's Day now,

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Speaker 2: and you know, their scene did say a lot.

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Speaker 3: It did, and it was an unusual scene. So Libby,

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Speaker 3: she was completely nude, and she had obvious and you

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Speaker 3: could see her wounds. She had blood on her hands

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Speaker 3: and blood on her neck and some blood on the

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Speaker 3: bottom of her feet. And Abby was wearing Libby's clothes

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Speaker 3: and major her wounds weren't so obvious, and mainly I

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Speaker 3: think because she was clothed and they had kind of

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Speaker 3: like been covered with some sticks. You know, long branches,

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Speaker 3: possibly to obscure the view from the river, you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of camouflage them a little bit. But what's interesting

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Speaker 3: about this is that even Abby's shoes were on. She

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Speaker 3: had her shoes, but she had Libby's jeans and sweatshirt on.

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Speaker 3: It's very unusual. And again Libby is totally naked.

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Speaker 2: And what that would imply, and again, Joseph welcome jump in,

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Speaker 2: is really that you know, not only did these young

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Speaker 2: women and again these are some graphic details, so you know, listener, beware,

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Speaker 2: and we'll get through them as quickly as possible. But

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Speaker 2: you know they had been undressed and redressed and placed.

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Speaker 2: And that video that you speak of where some man

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Speaker 2: says Hill, we all probably have heard it. It's really

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Speaker 2: haunting when you realize those are the very very last second.

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Speaker 2: So more on that later.

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Speaker 5: With just I think that it's important to understand the

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Speaker 5: scope of this thing because compared to a dwelling, like

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Speaker 5: a structure that you work with crom scene in, you're

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Speaker 5: very contained, right, You're bordered by walls. I know that

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Speaker 5: sounds very obvious, but this is a completely different kind

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Speaker 5: of animal. One of the investigators described the taped off

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Speaker 5: area as being the size of a football field. Just

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Speaker 5: let that sink in a little bit, because this is

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Speaker 5: an old adage in forensic so that you can never

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Speaker 5: expand the tape, you can only contract the tape. So

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Speaker 5: some of that can be explained by the idea that

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Speaker 5: wide net catches more fish, and so you set up

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Speaker 5: the perimeter in a very broad manner. But to me,

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Speaker 5: it's also saying they don't really know where things are.

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Speaker 5: They know that concentrically. They've got these two beautiful young

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Speaker 5: girls that have to say that they've been brutalized is

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Speaker 5: an understatement. And the thing about it is this is

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Speaker 5: one of those places you don't wind up by accident. Body.

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Speaker 5: You did an excellent job of describing this train trestle,

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Speaker 5: because this thing is harrowing. But here's the other piece

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Speaker 5: of this. You were talking about the height. This is

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Speaker 5: not like you're going to a nation monument and you've

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Speaker 5: got steps you're going to descend. We're talking about a

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Speaker 5: slick hill that is literally twenty feet in height. If

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Speaker 5: you don't know what twenty feet means, that means two stories.

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Speaker 5: And there is a subject, a grown man that is

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Speaker 5: apparently coaxing them down and I got to tell you

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Speaker 5: all along, I've always felt as though that the image

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Speaker 5: of that blurry image of him coming across a bridge,

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Speaker 5: he has his hand in his pocket, and there's been

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Speaker 5: some talks of firearms that sort of thing. Just think

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Speaker 5: if you were these two and these are not older teens.

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Speaker 5: These are young teen girls that are just kind of

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Speaker 5: finding their way and they're just hanging out and some

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Speaker 5: old creepy man comes along and it's telling them to

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Speaker 5: go down the hill. And this is a word I

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Speaker 5: love to use in this case, and I've used it

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Speaker 5: many times, is the word menacing. And there's actually laws

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Speaker 5: out there in certain jurisdictions about menacing. You can menace people,

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Speaker 5: And menacing gives you that idea that it's just this

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Speaker 5: overt threat and he could just merely out of his pocket,

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Speaker 5: pull the weapon and show it to them. I'd be terrified.

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Speaker 5: How much more so these young women.

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Speaker 3: And in the full video that has since been released,

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Speaker 3: the girls are very compliant, wouldn't you.

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Speaker 4: Very own God?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you're right on the money. They are compliant. That

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Speaker 5: in no way is I'm not imputing in counting the

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Speaker 5: way I got to tell you this about Delphi in

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Speaker 5: rural areas, which I have primarily lived most of my life.

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Speaker 5: One of the ways you measure a town in rural

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Speaker 5: areas is how closest walmart as rural as this place

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Speaker 5: is so rural that the occupants of Delphi, it's you

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Speaker 5: had to travel almost twenty six miles just to get

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Speaker 5: to the closest walmart, and they're walmarts everywhere. That's why

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Speaker 5: I say, that's a big clue to me. That's a

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Speaker 5: huge clue as an investigator, because your field is very

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Speaker 5: narrow at this point.

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Speaker 2: And also, Joseph, to add to that, this bridge you're

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Speaker 2: talking about that the girls are being led down a

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Speaker 2: hill from that would kind of make them trapped, right,

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Speaker 2: So if you're a perpetrator who maybe wants to do

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Speaker 2: something scary, you know, here are these two young girls

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Speaker 2: crossing this little bridge.

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Speaker 3: There's nowhere to run. You bring up such a good point, Stephanie,

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Speaker 3: because at the one end of the bridge where you

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Speaker 3: enter is where the trailhead is, and then at the

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Speaker 3: other end of the bridge, you're literally trapped. It's a

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Speaker 3: home like, you can't just walk through there, it's private property.

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Speaker 3: The only way to go down to get off the

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Speaker 3: bridge is to either go down or to go back

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Speaker 3: across it.

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Speaker 5: I got to tell you, if you're thinking about this

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Speaker 5: from the perspective of like the military, if you were

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Speaker 5: going to set up an ambush, this is what's referred

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Speaker 5: to as a choke point, Like you have no option

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Speaker 5: to go left or right. Everything narrows down. You're familiar

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Speaker 5: with the terrain, This terrain is some of the most

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Speaker 5: daunting terrain. You can even begin to imagine. What's your

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Speaker 5: option here? You're going to do what he says to do?

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Speaker 5: Are you going to throw yourself off the bridge? You

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Speaker 5: know that's you can try to run past him. But

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Speaker 5: if he presents a weapon or he's menacing, yeah, are

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Speaker 5: you going to do that? Even I mean as a child,

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Speaker 5: are you going.

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Speaker 3: To do that?

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Speaker 5: I got to tell you your default position is going

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Speaker 5: to be to obey. And that's what they did.

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Speaker 3: You know in the video and the photo that we

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Speaker 3: did receive over the course of the last seven or

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Speaker 3: eight years, it was long opine that he had a

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Speaker 3: gun in his pocket. Again, this video is very blurry.

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Speaker 3: You can't really see anything, but a lot of people

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Speaker 3: said that they could make an outline in the jacket

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Speaker 3: pocket of the guy, the bridge guy. So what's interesting

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Speaker 3: is that they did find that in between the two

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Speaker 3: girls where they ended up resting between the girl's bodies

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Speaker 3: near their feet, there was an unspent forty caliber bullet

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Speaker 3: and it forensically matched to a six hour Pee two,

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Speaker 3: which is now owned by the suspect, which is very interesting.

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Speaker 3: So this I don't know how to go to this

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Speaker 3: or For six years there was no arrest made in

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Speaker 3: this case. Then one day, all of a sudden, at

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Speaker 3: the near Halloween, we get, oh my gosh, there's been

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Speaker 3: an arrest in Delphi and it's this guy nobody has

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Speaker 3: ever heard of. And his name was Richard Allen. And

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Speaker 3: he wasn't on any of this sluice that we're sussing

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Speaker 3: everybody out. It wasn't on anybody's radar. He works at

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Speaker 3: the local CBS. He's a kind of an unassuming guy,

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Speaker 3: very surprised that this has happened. And what they did

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Speaker 3: was Richard Allen self reported that he was on the

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Speaker 3: trails that day because again they had this video right like,

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Speaker 3: we're looking for this guy. So he self reported and

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Speaker 3: everybody was giving tips like, oh, I was there, I

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Speaker 3: saw this. Yeah, the terrain this was the weather.

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Speaker 6: All.

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Speaker 2: That's a good citizen who actually calls into a tip line.

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Speaker 3: So he does wife. He told his wife, hey, I

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Speaker 3: was at the trailhead today, like and those girls have

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Speaker 3: gone missing. And she's like, you've got a call. So

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Speaker 3: he calls and he meets with a conservation officer and

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Speaker 3: you know, the conservation officer looks at his phone, takes

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Speaker 3: a statement. He says, I was there during this time.

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Speaker 3: And then six years go by and he's arrested. Six

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Speaker 3: years six years.

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Speaker 2: Hold, I thought we're going to continue this conversation. So

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Speaker 2: the Delphi murders were unpacking the forensics with Joseph Scott

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Speaker 2: Morgan and you know, again this is Boddy's case.

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Speaker 3: That's so close to her heart. So stay with us.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. Happy Labor Day weekend, everybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm here with crime analyst Body Movin and our very

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Speaker 2: owned forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and host of the

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Speaker 2: podcast Body Bags.

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Speaker 3: And listen, please trigger alert.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about a really sensitive topic, the Delphi murders,

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Speaker 2: and listen. There was an arrest by Richard Allen. That's

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Speaker 2: the part in the case we just are at. Now, body,

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Speaker 2: do you want to pick it up there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So everybody's wondering, what do they have against Richard Allen?

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Speaker 3: What is the case against Richard Allen? And we get

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Speaker 3: like a really really short PCA from the Delphi Police Department.

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Speaker 2: What's a PCA stand for probable cost Evidavid And it's

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Speaker 2: basically what the police are telling the judge and you

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Speaker 2: know this in DA.

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Speaker 3: Basically, this is the evidence we have against the suspect.

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Speaker 3: Can we go ahead and arrest them? And it's just

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Speaker 3: the evidence, not all the evidence. Obviously, they're not going

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Speaker 3: to put everything in there. It's just enough to get

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Speaker 3: somebody arrested.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it's important because again, without it, you are not

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Speaker 2: entering anybody's living space or frankly looking for more evidence.

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Speaker 3: So in this PCA, we learned that there was a

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Speaker 3: forty caliber bullet at the scene the crime. And we

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Speaker 3: didn't know this before. We didn't know, you know, the

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Speaker 3: girls were not shot. The girls were killed with a

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Speaker 3: blade of some kind. That's all we know. And we

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Speaker 3: don't even really know that, by the way, we don't

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Speaker 3: officially know that, but we do know that. The only

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Speaker 3: reason we know that is because the funeral home told

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Speaker 3: the families they would have to wear scarves. So it's

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Speaker 3: the only reason we knew that they even had a blade.

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Speaker 3: After six years, we didn't really know the cause of death.

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Speaker 3: There was a massive gag order in this case.

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Speaker 2: Our hearts are so with the families too, on all

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Speaker 2: fronts because it's a sadistic case.

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Speaker 3: So they found this bullet. Then we learned in the

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Speaker 3: PCA they found this bullet, well, they found the card. Basically,

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Speaker 3: a volunteer with the police department was going through like

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Speaker 3: all the Delphi tips and she ran across one that

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Speaker 3: had Richard Allen's name on it and saw, oh, they

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Speaker 3: need to follow up with this guy. And so they

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Speaker 3: followed up with him, and they got a search warrant

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Speaker 3: to his house and they found that he had a

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Speaker 3: forty caliber gun and they linked the.

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Speaker 2: Two and there was also a footprint, right, so didn't

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Speaker 2: they have a footprint and also.

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Speaker 3: The same shoe size or grid. Yeah, he admitted to

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Speaker 3: being there. He said he was there. They had a footprint. Bridge.

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Speaker 3: I actually don't know about this footprint, to be fair.

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Speaker 2: The way point though, even if they did, whether they

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Speaker 2: did or didn't have this footprint, it is no big

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Speaker 2: deal because he was there by his own admission.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he said he was there. So they found a

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Speaker 3: lot of DNA too, by the way, they found a

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Speaker 3: lot of DNA and the girls, but none of it

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Speaker 3: matched anybody. They matched each other because again Libby, you know,

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Speaker 3: was nude and Abby was wearing Libby's clothes, So of

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Speaker 3: course they're going to have DNA. You know, Abby's going

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Speaker 3: to have Libby DNA on her and they found unknown

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Speaker 3: male DNA. None of it matches Richard Allen, So.

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Speaker 2: Joseph, what do you make of that? Obviously the terrain

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Speaker 2: was very specific. It was February, so you know, authorities

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Speaker 2: have said since then that that didn't help in terms

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Speaker 2: of evidence and DNA findings, like none of it matched

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Speaker 2: the accused now convicted killer.

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Speaker 3: Is that common?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean to be able to find unknown or

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Speaker 5: know unmatched DNA of any kind. The thing that makes

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Speaker 5: this kind of peculiar, though, is the fact that it's

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Speaker 5: not like you're in a dwelling. You know, if you're

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Speaker 5: in a dwelling where you've got multiple people living in

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Speaker 5: a dwelling, you would expect DNA deposition from a variety

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Speaker 5: of sources. Okay, but if you're out in a wooded area,

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Speaker 5: depending upon where they're collecting it from. Now, if it's

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Speaker 5: coming off of the bodies, which I would imagine it

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Speaker 5: was probably off clothing, that can point you in a

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Speaker 5: very specific direction. I really wonder how rigorous they were

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Speaker 5: about the genetic testing. I'm a big fan now of

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Speaker 5: forensic genetic genealogy. I wonder if that's something that they

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Speaker 5: could revisit at this point, because back then, even though

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Speaker 5: it was a concept, it was not in pract just

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Speaker 5: like it is now. I mean, we're hearing cases every

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Speaker 5: single day now. I'd like to see if there were

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Speaker 5: because there are people out there that have suggested there

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Speaker 5: may have been other people. And just for peace of mind,

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Speaker 5: if I could back up just a little bit and

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Speaker 5: say something about the unspent cartridge that was out there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I definitely want to get into the unspent cartridge.

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Speaker 5: It's very interesting, it is, and it's a specific round.

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Speaker 5: It was a Smith and Wesson forty col. Forty col

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Speaker 5: is not real, real common. It's common, but it's not

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Speaker 5: like nine millimeter the line line share. People that carry concealed. Okay,

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Speaker 5: I know that there will be debates over me saying this,

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Speaker 5: but line's share of people that carry concealed are going

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Speaker 5: to carry nine milimeters. It's one of the most prevalent. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: there you go. It's one of the most prevalent handgun

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Speaker 5: calibers out there. But I have kept and you can't

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Speaker 5: see this, my colleagues here can but I've kept this

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Speaker 5: on my desk all of these years covering this case.

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Speaker 5: And this is a forty caliber Smith and Wesson.

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Speaker 2: Maybe an inch big, right, So what you're holding up bullet, it's,

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Speaker 2: you know, just a standard bullet, and it's probably the

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Speaker 2: size of the tip of your thumb.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's but it's actually more

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Speaker 5: robust than say a non milimeter okay, a bit larger.

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Speaker 5: The rub with this is that they used a unique

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Speaker 5: it's not unique, but it's not as satisfying for people

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Speaker 5: as say, a true ballistic test. When you run, yeah,

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Speaker 5: when you run around down a barrel, a barrel with

401
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Speaker 5: the lands and grooves in the barrel has a very

402
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Speaker 5: specific ballistic fingerprint.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Because again it's important to remember this bullet was not fired.

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Speaker 3: This is fun spent bullet, it's not the jacket, it's

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Speaker 3: the bullet itself.

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Speaker 5: Yes, so you've got the anatomy of this. The top

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Speaker 5: part is actually the projectile that's seeded in here. The

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Speaker 5: bottom part is the casing, and the entirety makes the

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Speaker 5: bullet okay, And then down here you've got propellant, and

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Speaker 5: then you have the primer cap down to the bottom

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Speaker 5: that has primary element in it. That's a bit different chemically. Anyway,

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Speaker 5: when they did the examination, when they collected Richard Allen's

414
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Speaker 5: forty cow, they take it to the State Crime Lab,

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Speaker 5: maybe even that FBI, I'm unclear, but the Ballistic Section

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Speaker 5: Indiana State Crime Lab would be perfectly suited to do this.

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Speaker 5: They would take the same round, not the one that

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Speaker 5: they're going to admit into evidence, but they're going to

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Speaker 5: take the same round, probably multiple times, place it in

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Speaker 5: to the barrel, into the tube, and they're going to

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Speaker 5: rack it multiple times with each individual, like they may

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Speaker 5: run ten through there to see if they can replicate

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Speaker 5: what are referred to as extractor and ejector marks on here.

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Speaker 5: And they run up the side and on the base

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Speaker 5: of the round. So when the mechanism grabs it, this

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Speaker 5: is soft metal. This is like brass, So if you've

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Speaker 5: ever had brass around your house, you know that it's

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Speaker 5: not like steel. So it leaves little marks, and those

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Speaker 5: marks can be tied back to a specific weapon, but

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Speaker 5: they are not as specific as the projectile being fired

431
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 5: and going down the barrel as it's spinning, that leaves

432
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 5: a very specific ballistic fingerprint. So this is where you

433
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 5: know a lot of people took exception to this bit

434
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 5: of evidence that it's collected seen. I think it's a

435
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 5: key piece because it goes back to what I'd mentioned

436
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 5: earlier about menacing. How many movies have we seen where

437
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 5: somebody's out on the street and all they do is

438
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 5: present a weapon, and they just demonstrated it happens in

439
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 5: real life. Yeah, it happens in real life too. People

440
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 5: are menaced with weapons. Hey, I'm backing off. How much

441
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 5: more so? You get two young girls down and it's

442
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 5: down in a hole essentially, let's face it. You get

443
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 5: them down there and all of a sudden you rack

444
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 5: that round and you're in such a height and this

445
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 5: is on me, I'll say this right here, and right now,

446
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 5: you're in such a high in state of sexual desire

447
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 5: in this perverted manner toward these little girls that guess

448
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 5: what you forget? You stick the weapon back in your pocket,

449
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 5: but you leave this racked round on the ground and

450
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 5: stuff to your point, making it difficult. Remember we're still

451
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 5: in February, and there's that drop of leaves that have

452
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 5: taken place just a few months back. The ground here

453
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 5: is just.

454
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: Covered and they'll damp and yeah.

455
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 5: Damp and mossy, I say, mossy, kind of mulchy feeling.

456
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 5: It's got that smell that you smell out in the woods.

457
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 5: I'm not going to say it's dumb luck. I think

458
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 5: that to my way of thinking, I think they probably

459
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 5: ran over this entire area with a metal detector because

460
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 5: these rounds, they're so heavy and so dense intact, they

461
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 5: will literally move, gravity will pull them. If it's laying

462
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 5: on a leaf, it'll roll down and go beneath other leaves.

463
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 5: So you have to run a metal detector to see

464
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 5: the things that can't be seen with the unaided eye.

465
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: So can I just ask one thing just to reset

466
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: are discovered? I mean tragically. Their clothes have obviously been

467
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: taken off and rearranged. One found completely nude, a bullet

468
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: which Joseph Scott Morgan, you're describing this. This bullet is

469
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: found between them. They're in this rough terrain at the

470
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 2: bottom of this hill while they were trying to cross

471
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: a bridge above head. And also, you know again it's

472
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 2: a day later. We know that search was very large,

473
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: per you, Joseph, the size of a football field. Now

474
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 2: add twenty four hours, and we know that there's this

475
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 2: video and audio about forty three seconds worth. It seems

476
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: like there should be easy to find who this guy is,

477
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: right well, and now they're making this arrest. The guy

478
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 2: is a pharmacist, he's working at the pharmacy. He's a

479
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: family man, has kids, his wife.

480
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 3: How could that be by the way he calls in,

481
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: he never left Melphi. He never leaves Delphi, which was

482
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: a little bit of a tell.

483
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: They always had said psychiatrists or a psychoanalyst had said

484
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 2: that perhaps stay they left and kind of rolled into

485
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: the real world and just sort of acclimated back into

486
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: the community. That would track. So, Joseph, back to you,

487
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 2: and I'm sorry to cut you off there. Back to

488
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: the forensics.

489
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 5: No, I was look at I've got to confess body,

490
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 5: and I had a conversation about this, and I don't

491
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 5: know she concurs with it, but this is kind of

492
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 5: my thought. Going back to Alan working at CVS, there

493
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 5: was a story that had floated about when the funerals occurred,

494
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 5: there's only one place in town where you get pictures developed.

495
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 5: I think that's CVS. You know, still getting thirty five's

496
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 5: printed and doing. You know, everybody sees these when you

497
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 5: go into the drugs.

498
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: You know it's a funeral. They're going to get pictures

499
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 3: blown up.

500
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 5: And then he funeral, he allegedly makes the offer to

501
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 5: do everything for free, and this is offered to the family.

502
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 5: I might be misspeaking here. I'm not sure. It may

503
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 5: have been Kelsey directly. And you know the other thing

504
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 5: that I talked about.

505
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 2: The accused Richard Allen, who's working at the CVS.

506
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 5: YE he's a nighttime manager essentially, right.

507
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: So he's volunteering services to the families for the girls funerals, photographs,

508
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: et cetera.

509
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: This is like the worst.

510
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: Wasn't there that movie with Robin Williams about the guy

511
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: used to make the photographs?

512
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's what was that. It was a scary movie.

513
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: I guess very similar.

514
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 5: Well, you know, the thing about it is with the photographs,

515
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 5: you have an insight into people's lives. If you're getting

516
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 5: hard copies when these things are developed, if they're developing

517
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 5: in house, you know, they do. They have the machinery

518
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 5: to do that. You sit there and you can just

519
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 5: flip through it. And who's going to pay Who pays

520
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 5: attention to what the guy in the photo booth does?

521
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 6: Anyway?

522
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 5: And this is the other thing that Body and I

523
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 5: mentioned with one another. If you're looking for intimate details

524
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 5: about people, how much more intimate is it that there

525
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 5: are not too many people in my little town where

526
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 5: I live that know more about me than the Walgreens pharmacist,

527
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 5: because they know everything. They know what kind of medications

528
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 5: you're on, they know what your phone number is, they

529
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 5: know where you live. I mean, how many robocalls do

530
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 5: we get say your prescription is ready?

531
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 7: You know?

532
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 5: And just that's the kind of information that this quiet,

533
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 5: unassuming person, you know, he kind of mels into the background,

534
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 5: and these are And the thing about is that's so

535
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 5: disturbing to me about the scene itself, is that these

536
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 5: are very dark fantasies that he's playing through. I had

537
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 5: a serial killer years ago that used to redress bodies,

538
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 5: turn underwear inside out, to put back on the victims,

539
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 5: the idea that you can treat people like their dolls.

540
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 5: And that's it's horrible that he did to this precious girl,

541
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 5: and that's what he was doing. He completely dehumanized them,

542
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 5: and it's just absolutely heartbreaking.

543
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: It's a hard case. And one thing I'm never going

544
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 3: to forget is during the trial, one of the person

545
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 3: taking the photography of the scene said that Libby, poor Libby,

546
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: who by the way, is nude. You know, she's fourteen

547
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 3: years old at a time when all girls are so

548
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: just self conscious. You know, there's streaks down her eye

549
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 3: and it's like dirt, but there's a clear path of

550
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: clear and he said that those were Libby's tears. It

551
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: cleared a path of and I you know, I'm never

552
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: going to forget that, never forget it's.

553
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 5: An indication of pain response and when you see that,

554
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 5: you know that. And I've always held this that this

555
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 5: was a torturous death, that this was not a quick death.

556
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 5: And even the forensic pathologists that did did these autopsies

557
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 5: states that on the stand that these were not immediate deaths,

558
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 5: that they would have lingered for a period of time,

559
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 5: there was an awareness of what was happening to them,

560
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 5: staring up either at him or to that sky and

561
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 5: the trees above them, and this is the last thing

562
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 5: they're going to see.

563
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 3: And we know that true be true based on the

564
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: blood pattern. You know, in the woods there's pools of

565
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: blood and by the way, it's all Libby's blood. There's

566
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: pools of blood, and we know that she walked through

567
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 3: her own blood because her blood is on the bottom

568
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: of her feet. So she gets her throat slashed, your

569
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: first thing is going to be to grab it, right,

570
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 3: So that's what she does, and that's why her hands

571
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: are bloody. And then she's stumbling. She grabs a tree,

572
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: and that's where the f tree comes. We're going to

573
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: talk about that in a second. She grabs a tree,

574
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: she's stumbling and walking through her own blood where she

575
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 3: and then she finally comes to rest is she sits

576
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 3: down and she's pooling more and then finally lays to rest.

577
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: So we know we know it took a minute. Abby.

578
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: We're not one hundred percent sure on I don't think,

579
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: but Libby definitely definitely suffered. It's hard to talk about.

580
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 3: It's a little kid.

581
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: These are two beautiful little kids, two beautiful girls. And again,

582
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: you know what comes next is also pretty compelling because

583
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: there have been Richard Allen's family says he's innocent, bottom line, right,

584
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: So we want to kind of unpack that. Despite the

585
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: fact that he is arrested and goes to trial and

586
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: is found guilty, some have suspected that there was maybe

587
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 2: a cult involved that was operating in the area. So

588
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: stick with us. This is true crime tonight.

589
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more.

590
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

591
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: true crime all the time, and we're talking about the

592
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: Delphi murders and the tragedy in Delphi, Indiana. And Joseph

593
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: and Body have been following this case so closely from

594
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: day one. It's sensitive, Body continues, Sorry to have to

595
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: cut you off earlier.

596
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: Now it's fine. So in October twenty twenty two, Richard

597
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: Allen was arrested and charged with the murder of Abby

598
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 3: Williams and Liddy Jermyan. After the case had gone unsolved

599
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: four years five six years after their death, a suspect

600
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: was finally apprehended in charge with the murder of thirteen

601
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 3: and fourteen year old. Upon his arrest, the forty eight

602
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 3: year old pharmacy technician husband and father pled not guilty,

603
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: but nearly two years later, Richard Allen was sentenced to

604
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty years of prison as he was

605
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 3: found guilty of these murders. A tip that I spoke

606
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: about earlier, that Alan had submitted himself back in twenty

607
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 3: seventeen admitting he had been on the trail that day

608
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 3: of the murders, was rediscovered in twenty twenty two by

609
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: a volunteer who was kind of like organizing case files.

610
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: And during that twenty twenty two search of Richard Allen's home,

611
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: police located that sig Sawyer P two twenty six pistol,

612
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: which forensic analysis tied to the unspent forty caliber rounds

613
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: left at the scene. Again, this is not a fired bullet,

614
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: but they matched that gun to that bullet austriations from

615
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 3: racking it, which is what they are opining that Richard

616
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 3: Allen had done in a menacing way to kind of

617
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: threaten the girls and to get them to be compliant.

618
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: So here's the thing. Richard Allen was not in County

619
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: jail while he waited trial, Richard Allen was sent to

620
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: the Westville Correctional Facility, which is a prison. So he's

621
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: technically an innocent man, but he's being held in a

622
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: prison and why how how is that possible? And wasn't

623
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: he in solitary confinement? Yeah, it was a safekeeping order

624
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: they I believe they said it was due to protect him,

625
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 3: because again, this is like a child killer, you guys, right,

626
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: Like they've got to put him in like protective custody.

627
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: And they didn't have the facilities in Delphi, Indiana to

628
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: take care of this. So he was sent to the

629
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: Westville Correctional Facility and he was put in solitary confinement.

630
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 3: And while he was in solitary confinement, he started acting

631
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 3: kind of crazy. All right, I don't know how else

632
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 3: to say it. He started acting kind of like he

633
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: was losing his marbles. On top of that, he started

634
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 3: confessing to the crimes and he would say things like

635
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: I did it, I killed Abby and Libby. He would

636
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 3: confess to his psychologist, who I've got a lot to

637
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 3: say about I've got a lot of really negative things

638
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 3: to say about her. He confessed to his wife, and

639
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 3: he confessed to his mother. Now his psychologist. Guys, doctor

640
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 3: Walla is a true crime fan and she's in all

641
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: the Delphi discussion groups. By the way, it's that about

642
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 3: this case.

643
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: Wow, So again the person who's the analyst who's analyzing

644
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: his mental health and ability to be at trial.

645
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 3: By the way, I have no skin in this game.

646
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: I'm just surprised that anybody can be put into solitary

647
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: confinement while waiting for trial because it's intended to make

648
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: you crazy.

649
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: It's intended to do that, right. So now you've got

650
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: people in myself included, who by the way, want nothing

651
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 3: but for the person who did this to be put

652
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: in jail for the rest of their life. But now

653
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 3: you've got people questioning things because of all this crap.

654
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: You know, I'm a believer in law enforcement. I believe

655
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: in the system. I don't like having questions about somebody's

656
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 3: guilt or innocence, you know what I mean. I don't

657
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: like it at all. I like to be cum convinced.

658
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 3: And the situation surrounding Richard Allen's incarceration and what they

659
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: basically did to him while he was incarcerated in prison

660
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: makes me kind of question if those confessions are actually

661
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 3: valid or if they are the ramblings of a crazy person.

662
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: Because he was on Haldall and he was on all

663
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 3: these they put him on all kinds of crap. Then

664
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 3: he got doctor Walla, who's you know, his psychologist, his confidant,

665
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 3: going into Gary Hughes, investigates Frickin' channel talking about the

666
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 3: Delphi case all night. I just don't like it. I

667
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: don't like it at all. It doesn't sit right with me.

668
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,439
Speaker 2: And by the way, you're not alone on that. There's

669
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 2: been a ton of chatter on all sides of this case.

670
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: On the one hand, of course, everyone wants justice for

671
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 2: these two beautiful girls and their families have been through

672
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: excruciating pain. And on the other that's pretty uncustomary. So, yes,

673
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: he has the same gun apparently in his home that

674
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: that very common bullet was found in between the bodies. Yes,

675
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: there's a shoe print that apparently, you know, fits his

676
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: size and the type of schu grid he had. And

677
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: by his own admission, because he called in to tip

678
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: off the police just to say, hey, yeah, I was

679
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: in the area at the time, he's kind of basically

680
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: calling in a tip as a good samaritan. Now years later,

681
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: fast forward, that ends up being something being held against him,

682
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: and then he confesses in various ways while in protective custody.

683
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: Also he was in solitary confinement.

684
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: Right, and then don't forget over the course of the

685
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: six years that you know, this investigation was, you know,

686
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 3: happening before arrest was made. We received four different sketches

687
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 3: and they all look different. None of them look like

688
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 3: Richard Allen, not a single one. They all look different.

689
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 3: One's an old man, one's a skinny young man, one's

690
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 3: just a young man. I mean, they are wildly different.

691
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 3: But every time I bring up, I don't know if

692
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 3: Richard Allen did this or not. Here's what I'm told.

693
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: Richard Allen admitted to being on the trail that day.

694
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 3: Richard Allen is Bridge guy, Bridge Guy killed the girls.

695
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: That's what I get told. Like almost like sit down

696
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: and shut up.

697
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 2: Body, interesting because they don't nobody really wants to kind

698
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: of revisit this. But his family is standing by his

699
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: side and claiming that there was other circumstances in and

700
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: around the area, potentially a cult that was operating nearby.

701
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: We don't have to super get into this, but there

702
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: there was this allegation that there's a cult, an odinous cult,

703
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: and that means that maybe there was some sacrificial stuff

704
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: going on. Perhaps the branches and some of the leaves

705
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: and things that were discarded on their bodies when they

706
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: were found, maybe that was linked. Maybe some of these

707
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: pools of blood that body you described so scarily or

708
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: in such scary detail from Libby's body, like the hurry

709
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 2: on the tree, et cetera.

710
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: They thought it was like a ruin. One of the

711
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: Todd click he's an investigator with the Indiana State. He

712
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 3: kind of thought, you know, maybe this kind of looks

713
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: like the everything's kind of staged, is what he thought.

714
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: And they called in a professor from Purdue that like

715
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 3: has knowledge about these cults. And in the area of

716
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 3: Delphi they have this Vinlanders cult, which is this motorcycle

717
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 3: gang that is an Odinist. Now again, normal people practicing

718
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 3: Norse paganism are not bad people, but it's been hijacked

719
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 3: by these white supremacists, this this Odinists cult, these Norse symbols,

720
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 3: you know, symbols and whatnot, And Todd Klick kind of

721
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: thought that, you know, maybe these Vinlanders might be involved. Well,

722
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: turns out one of the Vinlanders, son is dating Abby.

723
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: I mean, that is pretty harrowing detail. It's kind of

724
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: compelling to what it says. What does that mean to you?

725
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: So what is that?

726
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: What do you make of that? Do you think there's

727
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: any validity to that, Joseph? Do you think that has merit?

728
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 5: Well, this is the thing because it's not just the

729
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 5: one percenters. I'm assuming that that's what they are that

730
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 5: are involved in this. Their supposition has been that there's

731
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 5: an entire collection of these individuals that work at this prison.

732
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: So well they admitted. By the way, since you bring

733
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 3: that up, Richard Allen said that he was being threatened

734
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: by prison guards wearing odin patches. Okay, because okay, and

735
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 3: everyone's like, yeah, okay whatever. Nope, next document release we have.

736
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 3: Guess what we have the warden admitting, yeah, his guards

737
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 3: are wearing odin patches. So Richard Allen is saying, I

738
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: confess because I'm under thread at the prison. I'm going crazy.

739
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 3: Now you've got these odin patched prison guards, you know,

740
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: signing affidavit said yeah, they wear patches in prison.

741
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: It was.

742
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that would be allowed relative to an official uniform

743
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 5: because in those uniformed environments like that, they're very specific

744
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 5: how you're supposed to dress and listen. The thing about

745
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 5: prison and is that everything in prison, no matter how

746
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 5: passive it is, mean something. And you know, all you

747
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 5: have to look at tats, You look at the way

748
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 5: sign languages done, people behave. There's certain ways ways you walk,

749
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 5: there's certain ways you talk, who you talk to, what

750
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 5: you do. That's, you know, to me, that was interesting.

751
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 5: Here's another thing. I always wondered about the forensics of

752
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 5: those branches, trying to understand if they had been tool

753
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 5: marked or not.

754
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 3: Joseph, they left them, you know, they left them there

755
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 3: for three weeks.

756
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: What does that mean exactly if they left them there, well,

757
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: they didn't.

758
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 5: Collect them and bring them in. And these are like,

759
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 5: these branches are overlaying the bodies in a way. I

760
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 5: think you guys use stuff. I think you mentioned camouflage

761
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 5: a little while ago, so it couldn't be seen from above. Okay,

762
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 5: I'll give you marks for that. But I've seen these illustrations.

763
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 5: There's one kind of famously infamously that's out there where

764
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 5: it's a diagram that has been drawn, and these branches

765
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 5: are laying over and people are saying it's almost like

766
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 5: watching somebody do a magic trick with cards. Here, look

767
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 5: at this, you know they're saying, you can see this letter,

768
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 5: you can see this formation and yeah, in the way

769
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 5: the branches are laid there. Yeah, And so why is

770
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 5: there not more evidence of a bunch of people? So

771
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 5: if this is a okay, let's just go with it.

772
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 5: Let's say it's a sacrifice. Let's just say that, why

773
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 5: is no more ground disturbed around this area where you've

774
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 5: got people marching in to witness this, and and why

775
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 5: are they going to do it in broad daylight when

776
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 5: you know that there's Uh, it just seems it seems

777
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 5: as though. And listen the post mortem interval piece to this,

778
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 5: the status of their bodies when they were examined, it

779
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 5: kind of marries up with the time that approximates when

780
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 5: they disappeared. So that's that's a big, big piece to this.

781
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 5: One other thing too, that not much hay has been

782
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 5: made over is the distance between walking distance and direct

783
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 5: walking distance between Richard Allen's house and the location you

784
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 5: can literally walk across. I think it's like two pastures.

785
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 5: Nobody's going to see you. You can approach off of

786
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 5: Logan's property and descend down into this area and never

787
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 5: be seen. You just kind of poof, there's no need

788
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 5: to park a car there' and so you can actually

789
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 5: walk back and forth. So for me, that's always kind

790
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 5: of stacked up in my mind relative to pointing back

791
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 5: to him. And the thing about it is he never left.

792
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 5: As you guys mentioned, he has intimate knowledge of this area,

793
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 5: and the fact that you've got an individual, in my

794
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 5: opinion at least, that's acting out a devious sexual play

795
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 5: in his mind with these young girls that he can

796
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 5: influence and do these things with. You know, all signs

797
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 5: point to him. From my perspective, I think that to

798
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 5: be more satisfied, I'd like to have more connectivity from

799
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 5: a DNA perspective, footprint evidence, all those sorts of things.

800
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 5: But you know, it's a done deal now. Now will

801
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 5: they uncover some sinister group that's actually behind the scene.

802
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 5: I don't know. Maybe they will. I hope they continue

803
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 5: to investigate.

804
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: I do too, and you know, with appeals coming, maybe

805
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 3: they'll have some new evidence to share with us. I

806
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 3: hope they do. One thing about this trial that was

807
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 3: really hard, you guys, is that everything there was a

808
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 3: massive gag order in this like one of the strongest.

809
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,959
Speaker 3: I've even the family's under gag in this case, which

810
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 3: is really unusual. And so when it went to trial,

811
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 3: the only way you could really know what was going

812
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 3: on is it that you were inside the courtroom, because

813
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 3: no media was like, there's no there's no photography, there

814
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 3: was nothing allowed, no audio, nothing. So after each day

815
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 3: everybody would sit around and listen to people who were

816
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: inside the courtroom that day. And depending on who you

817
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 3: listen to, is what you heard. So if you're listening

818
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 3: to a pro defense side of the aisle, you're going

819
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: to get all the bad things to stay did. And

820
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 3: if you're listening to a pro state here about what

821
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: a bad and evil person Richard Allen is. It was

822
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 3: very very interesting because like mass media, like normal media

823
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 3: like that live in whatnot in Indiana were divided really

824
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 3: even the family. Yeah, I mean it's it's been very difficult,

825
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: and so maybe because of that, I've just I'm left

826
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 3: very unsatisfied with this case. Like I just have it

827
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 3: in my head that there's something that's going to convince me,

828
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 3: and listen, it's not important to convince me. I just

829
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 3: want to be convinced. I'm just nosy and I need

830
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: to know what happened.

831
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 5: I think this case, I got to tell you, I

832
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 5: think it's precedent setting in a sense that this is

833
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 5: a perfect example why we do need cameras in the courtroom,

834
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 5: and all of this conspiratorial stuff, all that stuff just

835
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 5: kind of vanishes in the air. And look, you don't

836
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 5: have to show the pictures. We've seen this played out

837
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 5: over and over again. You don't have to show gory pictures.

838
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 5: You can block that out, doesn't have to be seen.

839
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 5: But just to catch what's going on in there and

840
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 5: to understand the tenor of the commonversation is very important

841
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 5: here and so much.

842
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 4: So in this case.

843
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is a shiny example of what happens

844
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 3: in the dark, right, because all this stuff has happened

845
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 3: in the dark, and we have to rely on other

846
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 3: people's stories to tell the American public. And I just

847
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 3: don't like it.

848
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 2: And by the way, it does speak a lot also

849
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 2: to again Libby and Abigail, their families, Our hearts are

850
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: with them. But also how smart she was to be

851
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: able to take her phone and to snapchat something live

852
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 2: at two o seven pm that audio video whatever forty

853
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 2: three seconds that she was able to record was one

854
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: of the most critical pieces of information, right, So I

855
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: would have to imagine this case is going to continue,

856
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: and to your point, body, there's likely appeal after appeal

857
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: after appeal to come. Right now, he's looking at one

858
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty years sixty five per victim claims his

859
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 2: innocence and his wife stands by him.

860
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's insistent that he's innocent. And you know,

861
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 3: she's standing by him. And whether you know right or wrong,

862
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 3: you have to admire that she's not given up on

863
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 3: her husband. And she absolutely does not listen, either she

864
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 3: does not believe it or she is in bad denial.

865
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 3: Joseph any predictions, I know we have to wrap it up, but.

866
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 5: No, it's good. It's gonna Yeah, it's going to go

867
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 5: up on appeal. And I think I'm kind of reinvigorated

868
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 5: by the proposition that new stuff could be introduced, because

869
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 5: in order to form an appeal, you have to bring

870
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 5: forth new substance information. Yeah, what that information will be,

871
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 5: We'll see what else have they uncovered. Do they have

872
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 5: a team that has the ability to uncover stuff? Because

873
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 5: I can tell you there's a lot of attorneys out

874
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 5: there that would love to make their bones on a

875
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 5: case like this, so we'll see what happens during the

876
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 5: course of the appeal.

877
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: Wow, big show listen. Thank you for sticking with us.

878
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: Wishing you a fantastic rest of your holiday weekend. Please

879
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 2: remain safe out there. This is True Crime Tonight. We've

880
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: been talking true crime all the time.

881
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 3: And we will be back soon.

882
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 7: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

883
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 7: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here

884
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 7: with Crime Analyst. Body move in.

885
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: Do not forget.

886
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 7: If you've missed any part of the show, you can

887
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 7: always catch the podcast. Joining us now is the award

888
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 7: winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos. He

889
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 7: is a trusted voice in the radio world. He is

890
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 7: a reserve officer with Miami's police Department, and on his podcast,

891
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 7: he teams up with Cold Case Homicide Unit. He does

892
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 7: that to re examine unsolved murders and give families a

893
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 7: renewed voice.

894
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 6: Enrique, welcome, Thank you so much, Courtney. Congratulations on the

895
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 6: success of this podcast as well.

896
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 4: Well.

897
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 3: Thank you.

898
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 4: We're welcome.

899
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 3: Hoanpefully We're so big as you one day exactly and

900
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 3: is trusted let's add you know and is trusted. You're

901
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 3: very trusted. I went and read all about you and

902
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 3: you are like incredibly trusted in your community, and you

903
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 3: you take that very seriously, and I just I really

904
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 3: wanted to commend you on that real quick.

905
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 4: Thank you.

906
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 6: It's it's a blessing to be able to represent my

907
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 6: community and Latinos that live simultaneously and two two worlds

908
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 6: at the same time, English and Spanish and living you know,

909
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 6: bicultural and doing wearing so many different hats at iHeart

910
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 6: and broadcasting and in law enforcement. It's a ticket with

911
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 6: a great deal of responsibility.

912
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: Well and you will do well. Rique.

913
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 7: So off of that, So you have worked in law enforcement,

914
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 7: can you explain a little bit, because I got to

915
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 7: hear your background on your fantastic podcast, talk to us

916
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 7: about working in law enforcement and also how that shaped

917
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 7: the way.

918
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 3: You approach these cold cases in your podcast.

919
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 6: Sure, so let's start with Cold Case Files Miami. Right,

920
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 6: it's more than just a I would say more than

921
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 6: a just a true crime podcast. It's a it's a

922
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 6: personal mission for me. As a reserve police officer in

923
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 6: the city of Miami. I've seen firsthand the pain that

924
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 6: lingers when when justice is delayed or never comes for

925
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 6: some people unfortunately. You know, I've talked to frustrated detectives

926
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 6: who carry these cases with them for decades, and families

927
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 6: who are still searching for answers. Many of these you know, parents,

928
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 6: especially the mothers, got to applaud them. It's like, Wow,

929
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 6: I've learned so much doing this podcast. They've turned their

930
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 6: grief into into purpose and some of them have created foundations,

931
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 6: community efforts to support other victims and families, and they

932
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 6: keep their loved ones memories alive. And that's probably that's

933
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 6: a lot about what the spirit of this podcast came

934
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 6: about and why I decided.

935
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 4: To do it.

936
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 6: That's exactly why we created Cold Case Fouls Miami in

937
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 6: partnership with a School of Humans, and of course I

938
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 6: Heeartsmicha wul Do a podcast network. So we go beyond

939
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 6: the headlines. We re examine evidence with forensic experts. We

940
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 6: dive into how breakthroughs and fingerprinting in DNA and are

941
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 6: changing the game and evolving, and how it's evolved since

942
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 6: its inception years so many years ago, right and giving

943
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 6: a voice to those whose stories have been left left behind,

944
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 6: so they're not just statistics.

945
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 4: These are these These stories are about people.

946
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 6: Sons, daughters whose lives were stolen tragically, senselessly. Many of

947
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 6: these cases, some people out there still may know something

948
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 6: that can help solve them.

949
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 4: Right.

950
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 6: So it's like a sense of responsibility beyond the badge,

951
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 6: beyond my.

952
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 4: Work as a reserve officer.

953
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 6: I'm a former full time police officer, left police work

954
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 6: to do broadcasting. I live in these two awesome worlds,

955
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 6: so I get how can I really do something for

956
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 6: these victims in these families.

957
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: And especially a really unique position, right like you are

958
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 3: living in both worlds. I've never met anybody that's done

959
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 3: that before, and I think it's I'm going off script here.

960
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 3: I think that's really cool. I think that is really, really,

961
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 3: really cool because you're able to get national attention on

962
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 3: cases while also speaking the language of law enforcement. Right,

963
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 3: that is a really unique position, and you wield it well.

964
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 3: I think this is your crime. Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm

965
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: Body Moven and right now we're joined by the award

966
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 3: winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos, and

967
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 3: we want to hear from you. Give us a call

968
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 3: at eighty eight eight thirty one crime and leave us

969
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 3: a voicemail or hit us up on the talkbacks using

970
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app to No, you just.

971
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 6: Described very well the spirit of why I do it

972
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 6: and why I try to use my platforms in a

973
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 6: positive way. Right, So, speaking to my experience as a

974
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 6: police officer, that has definitely been critical about who I am.

975
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 6: I was a police explorer as a young man, then

976
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 6: became a police dispatcher, then into the police academy, then

977
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 6: into police work, and then I bumped into broadcasting kind

978
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 6: of by accident. So I do two things that I'm

979
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 6: absolutely absolutely passionate about and that I love doing, and

980
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 6: again that it's critical, and I use my platform again

981
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 6: do something positive. So, you know, going back to law enforcement, Yeah,

982
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 6: I've been through the crappy parts of it.

983
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 4: I've stood over dead bodies.

984
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 6: I've interviewed devastated witnesses and been part of that the

985
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 6: pursuit to bring killers to justice. I've also had to

986
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 6: you know, knock on doors and deliver the horrible news,

987
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,919
Speaker 6: the worst possible news to families that their loved ones

988
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 6: aren't aren't coming home.

989
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 4: I've done that, I've been that.

990
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 6: I've had to do that since I was a young

991
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 6: police officer at the age of nineteen, fresh out of

992
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 6: the police academy. That kind of trauma, I would say,

993
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 6: doesn't it doesn't fade, you know. It gives me a

994
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 6: very very real understanding of the pain that these families

995
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 6: and investigators carry. So when I revisit cases like our

996
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 6: episode one, which was sixteen year old Brian Herrera who

997
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 6: was killed in broad daylight, he was shot and killed

998
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 6: in the streets of Miami years ago for his cell phone,

999
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 6: or Joyce Sapp who was a beloved woman was murdered

1000
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 6: in Liberty City here in Miami, and.

1001
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 7: Talk about Episode one just really quick, absolutely because that

1002
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 7: it staggered me, just the senselessness, like you said, it was,

1003
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 7: you know, over a cell phone that he pointed out

1004
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 7: it wasn't even connected to you, couldn't even make a

1005
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 7: phone call.

1006
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 3: It was so he could play games.

1007
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 7: And he was an a student and go riding his

1008
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 7: bike to his friend's house to do his homework over Christmas.

1009
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 7: So sad, devastating, But I also I think everything you

1010
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 7: were speaking about before, your experience in dealing with families

1011
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 7: who have lost the most important people in their lives,

1012
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 7: it gives you the pathos to tell the stories in

1013
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 7: a really compassionate way and really highlight because his mother

1014
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 7: what a force of nature and handing out the photos.

1015
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 7: Can you talk about the importance that victim's family members

1016
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 7: can play as cases go on.

1017
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 6: One hundred percent of specifically with episode one with Brian

1018
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 6: her Ever, the sixteen year old that was shot and

1019
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 6: killed for his cell phone. It was horrible because like

1020
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 6: it was Christmas time, right, and he had a younger,

1021
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 6: younger sister that still lives today, but she was too

1022
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 6: young than to understand what was going on with her

1023
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 6: with their brother who had just been murdered. Christmas was approaching,

1024
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 6: so sand is still coming. Hearing Brian's mom tell that story,

1025
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 6: how devastated, how heartbreaking that was that they were dealing

1026
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 6: with the murder of their son at this very same time,

1027
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 6: having to deal with Christmas and trying to keep Brian's

1028
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 6: younger sister, their young youngest daughter shielded from all this

1029
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 6: negative negativity and new life. And the connection is very real,

1030
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 6: not just for the family, but also you know, have

1031
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 6: a colleague of mine, a former Miami police officer, that

1032
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 6: heard the episode and he called me right away when

1033
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 6: episode one dropped about Brian her Era, and he remembered

1034
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 6: everything he told me.

1035
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 4: And I think I was on the scene. I remember

1036
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 4: seeing Brian shot.

1037
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 6: I helped coordinate with the fire rescue to get him

1038
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 6: transport and all that kind of stuff. That gave me

1039
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 6: the chills. It was a reminder that these cases still

1040
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 6: live in the memories of the people who were there,

1041
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 6: the law enforcement officers, the first responders, more especially the families.

1042
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 6: Right when it comes to the parents who've lost children

1043
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 6: to violence, that I would say, they want closure, right

1044
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 6: and they deserve it.

1045
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 4: I think we can all agree there.

1046
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 6: You know, imagine losing your child in this descript and

1047
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 6: this herndous story that we just laid out. In episode five,

1048
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 6: I talked to a very strong woman named Tangala Sears,

1049
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,919
Speaker 6: and she was never getting clear answers after her son

1050
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 6: was murdered, so she turned her pain into purpose. She

1051
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 6: founded an organization here in Florida called Parents of Murdered Children.

1052
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 6: There's another woman named Lawrence Webb in episode two. Well,

1053
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 6: Lawrence was murdered when she was thirty two. This was

1054
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 6: in twenty thirteen. Her case lingered in limbo despite a

1055
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 6: known suspect, so they knew who the guy was, but

1056
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 6: they didn't have enough evidence to charge them.

1057
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 4: So imagine living with that trauma too. It's like, we

1058
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 4: got it.

1059
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 6: They're pressuring the police departments, they're pressuring the state attorney's office.

1060
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 6: These families are forced to live in a suspended state

1061
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 6: of grief. Yeah, they want to know why, They want

1062
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 6: to know who, and they want to know, you know,

1063
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 6: to know that the system didn't forget about them, that

1064
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 6: the system didn't forget about their loved one.

1065
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 7: Was she the mother and that was also quite another

1066
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 7: absolute powerhouse of a human with her resolve to just

1067
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,320
Speaker 7: keep calling and making sure that people did not forget

1068
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 7: and calling and calling. I think another thing that your

1069
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 7: series does really well, that Cold Case Files Miami does

1070
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 7: really well is also while telling the personal stories, you

1071
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 7: also give listeners some knowledge of sort of legalities. I

1072
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 7: think it was episode two where an officer is speaking about, well,

1073
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 7: we have enough suspicion that we can arrest someone, but

1074
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 7: then you have to go to the prosecutors and they

1075
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 7: have a different standard. And that's just the reality, and

1076
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 7: you know, sometimes it's I don't know, there's a lot

1077
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 7: of obstacles to get to final justice.

1078
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 4: One hundred percent.

1079
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, episode two with Laurent's a Web, the thirty two

1080
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 6: year old that was shot in twenty thirteen, So a

1081
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,280
Speaker 6: suspect had emerged right within days, but formal charges didn't

1082
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 6: follow for like five years afterwards. So we explore in

1083
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 6: this episode, you know why justice was delayed and if

1084
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 6: the case can still hold up in court. And that's

1085
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 6: another big problem with with these with these cases, you know,

1086
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 6: they go for a long time unsolved. These cases collect

1087
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 6: dust on the detectives, sometimes retire, they move on to

1088
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 6: other units. The witnesses aren't so clear about what they saw,

1089
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 6: they don't remember their memory you.

1090
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 4: Know, fades. So those are all that factors in absolutely

1091
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 4: how much.

1092
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 3: Has the advancements in forensics helped bring new hope to

1093
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 3: old cases that you've experienced.

1094
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 6: This has got to be one of my favorite episodes,

1095
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 6: which is episode three, because I talk with Miami Daye

1096
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 6: County State Attorney Catherine Fernandez Rundel. So I'll give you

1097
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 6: a little background on Kathy and why I'm so proud

1098
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 6: of her and what is and what she's done in

1099
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 6: Miami Dade County. So, Kathy's been the state attorney for

1100
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 6: Miami Dade County for thirty years.

1101
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 4: She's the first.

1102
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 6: Cuban American and Hispanic woman to ever hold that role

1103
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 6: in the state of Florida. So really, yeah, she's led

1104
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 6: one of the She's led one of the largest prosecutor

1105
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 6: offices in the country it's Miami Dade County for over

1106
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 6: thirty years, and has been a pioneer in criminal justice reform.

1107
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 4: Truly, she's a powerhouse.

1108
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 6: She's created specialized courts for domestic violence, for mental health,

1109
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 6: which we know finally is getting the attention that it

1110
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 6: deserves now these days for our vets. She's very respected

1111
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 6: and it was great to sit down and talk with her.

1112
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 6: She told me something and I'll never forget, you know.

1113
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 6: She said, the truth always rises, and she meant that

1114
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 6: literally because there's the case that she made reference to

1115
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 6: as a mister Bates, a man who had gone missing

1116
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 6: after a hurricane hit here in South Florida. The floodwaters

1117
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 6: unearthed this this briefcase, and inside was mister Bates's body.

1118
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 6: So that's wild, right. So the discovery led to the

1119
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 6: reopening of his case and the conviction of a former

1120
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 6: business partner for his murder. So cases like that are

1121
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 6: now solvable because how far forensic science has come. One

1122
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 6: major turning point, of course, was in two thousand and one,

1123
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 6: the year the Human Younome Project released its first full

1124
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 6: draft of the Human DNA Map, right, and that changed everything.

1125
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 6: It gave scientists and law enforcement the tool to analyze

1126
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 6: partial DNA samples with a precision that simply didn't exist before.

1127
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 6: So since two thousand and one, i'd say two thousand

1128
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 6: and one was the year DNA moved from the.

1129
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 4: Lab to the streets.

1130
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 6: It turned cold cases into solvable cases, victims into identities,

1131
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 6: and suspicion into scientifically backed proof. And Kathy really dives

1132
00:59:55,960 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 6: into how all this has changed. She explains, how, you know,

1133
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 6: the advancements and fingerprint technology and DNA databases like COTIS,

1134
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 6: you know, the combined DNA index system that we're seeing

1135
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 6: justice catch up with with time. I'd say COTIS alone

1136
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 6: has assisted over half a million, you know, investigations, many

1137
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 6: involving decades old evidence. And it's a reminder of science

1138
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 6: can give families something they haven't had in a long time.

1139
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 4: Which is hope. Right.

1140
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 3: I love that you have such a wide range of

1141
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 3: cases that you talk about, and you look into some

1142
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 3: that are totally cold and been cold for decades and

1143
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 3: some that have gone to trial or like that are

1144
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 3: completely closed, but that there's doubts about. Right, Like the

1145
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 3: episode led by detectives Zachary Scott, What can you tell

1146
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 3: us about that?

1147
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 5: Well?

1148
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 6: With Zachary Scott is very interesting because this was a

1149
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 6: gentleman that lived in Brazil and this guy was a

1150
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 6: wife abuser. There's evidence of it to the point where

1151
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 6: he shot his wife. There's thoughts that his wife, the

1152
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 6: family member put a hit out on him. He disappeared

1153
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 6: for a while. But the tie with Brazil. In South

1154
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 6: Florida was really fascinating.

1155
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 4: Right.

1156
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 6: There was two women murdered here in two different jurisdictions

1157
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 6: in South Florida, one in Broward County and that's where

1158
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,439
Speaker 6: detective Zachary Scott works, and another one in the City

1159
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 6: of Miami where I'm a reserve City of Miami police officer.

1160
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 4: But there were similarities in the case.

1161
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 6: They had found the bodies, they had DNA, but they

1162
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 6: couldn't match it to anybody. Make a short story long,

1163
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 6: This was fascinating this whole episode because this detective was

1164
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 6: able to connect the dots between his officers in Broward County.

1165
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 6: The police officers in the city of Miami and law

1166
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 6: enforcement in Brazil get the Brazilian.

1167
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 4: Authorities to cooperate for the first time in history.

1168
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 6: They thought this man had faked his death when they

1169
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 6: thought that this was the man, but they needed his

1170
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 6: DNA to confirm that the match on the two women

1171
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 6: in Florida. They actually got the DNA from his daughter,

1172
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 6: who cooperated with the Brazilian authorities. It was fascinating and

1173
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 6: he goes into this whole investigation that spanned countries in

1174
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 6: decades before finally unveiling and being able to really pin

1175
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 6: these two murders on this woman. It's fascinating to get

1176
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 6: this detective to open up and tell me. When I

1177
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 6: asked him, do you think there were more women that

1178
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,440
Speaker 6: were murdered? I said, He says absolutely. He was addicted

1179
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 6: to street workers. It was confirmed that these women in

1180
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 6: Florida were sex workers. The argument that he got into

1181
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 6: his wife where he shot her in Brazil was over

1182
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 6: his involvement with prostitutes.

1183
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 3: Coming up more with the award winning hosts of Cold

1184
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 3: Case Files Miami Enrique Santos, keep it right here True

1185
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight.

1186
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 7: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

1187
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 7: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with

1188
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 7: crime analyst Body move in. We are back with award

1189
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 7: winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santo's Welcome

1190
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 7: back in Rique.

1191
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being here and for all

1192
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 3: the incredible work you're doing with Cold Case Files Miami.

1193
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 3: I mean it's hard enough to work with agencies in

1194
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 3: other counties, yes, let alone another country. I mean, that's

1195
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,439
Speaker 3: pretty that's pretty great at him that he was able

1196
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 3: to pull that off.

1197
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 6: It gets more fascinating because he was able to use

1198
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 6: case law to prove to Brazil a case that had

1199
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 6: happened just prior, or a couple of years prior, where

1200
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 6: they actually, for the first time ever, the court system

1201
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 6: in Cuba convicted somebody for a crime that happened in

1202
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 6: the United States. So that's set precedent. There was case law.

1203
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 6: They used that as an example, and they used that

1204
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 6: to convince the Brazilian authorities to cooperate. It truly fascinating.

1205
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, it really was a very very cool listen and

1206
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 7: it almost felt like like you're eavesdropping on the two

1207
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 7: of you sort of talking it out. It was a

1208
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 7: different and it was a different vibe slightly than the

1209
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 7: other episodes in which I've really enjoyed sort of Buddy

1210
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 7: and I were talking about earlier, just the you're on

1211
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 7: a ride with all.

1212
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 3: Of these episodes.

1213
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 4: Thank you, Courtney.

1214
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 7: What is kind of a two part question, how do

1215
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 7: you choose your cases?

1216
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 3: And also what's one case that's really sort of really

1217
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 3: stuck with you?

1218
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 6: So in the selection of these cases has been really

1219
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 6: organic kind of how they come about. I have family members,

1220
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 6: lifetime friends, ex coworkers, still partners on the police department

1221
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 6: who are tied to a lot of these cases. A

1222
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 6: lot of that, there's a lot of them. There's information

1223
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 6: where they might have leads, so and we don't want

1224
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 6: to ruin anything. They don't want to ruin a case

1225
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 6: or the chances of where they're you know, they're right

1226
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 6: on the tail of somebody, and so we don't want

1227
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 6: to talk about it because it's almost right at the

1228
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 6: you know, the borderline of getting of getting solved. So

1229
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 6: that really dictated of how much information of unsolved cases

1230
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 6: we were to put out. And then I said to

1231
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:10,439
Speaker 6: the team, and collectively we said, why don't we talk

1232
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 6: about the success story too? Not just what I mean

1233
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 6: this podcast series would be successful if we're able to

1234
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 6: bring closure to some of these families. Number One, humanize

1235
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 6: these people and they remind people that what the toll

1236
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 6: is of all this violence, and its fascinating, heartbreaking, by

1237
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 6: the same time inspiring to hear these family members destroyed,

1238
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 6: their lives totally shattered, how they've put themselves together, and

1239
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 6: how many of them are now helping other families move

1240
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 6: forward through the organizations, through other support groups, even just

1241
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 6: telling their story to me and participating in this podcast.

1242
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 3: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Body Moven

1243
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 3: and we are joined tonight by the award winning host

1244
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 3: of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos. Want to hear

1245
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 3: from you, hit us up on the talkbacks on the

1246
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app. You know, it's one thing, that's one thing

1247
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 3: I really struggle with, is I get to attach to

1248
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 3: people and their story. How do you balance this emotional

1249
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 3: weight of all these stories that you're covering while still

1250
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 3: doing your job as a journalist and storyteller. How do

1251
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 3: you how do you manage because I'm personally struggling.

1252
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 6: Well, I let me tell you there's no manual right

1253
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 6: for this, and you've got experiences because you've done You've

1254
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 6: done great work. And congrats on your series on on

1255
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 6: Netflix for doing what's right.

1256
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 4: Look how much you stirred up a lot, but you.

1257
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 3: Did it for the right reasons, right if you have

1258
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 3: a good heart I think you know, and good intentions. Right,

1259
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 3: But don't you feel like do you do? You struggle

1260
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 3: with the emotional toll because you are taking on a

1261
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 3: big like when somebody is full of hope. Yeah, and

1262
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 3: you're you know, taking that on. That's a that's a

1263
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 3: big burden for your self for sure.

1264
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 6: As cops, you know, you're training the police academy to

1265
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 6: stay detached. I would say arms distance when you're when

1266
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 6: you're when you're involved in these cases, don't you know?

1267
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 6: But when you're telling the story of someone like Brian her,

1268
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 6: you can't help but feel it. It's real. I mean

1269
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 6: you're listening to their mother. It's the story and of

1270
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 6: the sister and how they had to continue on going

1271
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 6: the life, their life goes on and so they have

1272
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 6: to celebrate Christmas the same week that they're burying their son.

1273
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 6: There there there's you know, there these there are these

1274
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,720
Speaker 6: cases that there you feel the true weight of it

1275
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 6: and the real human loss, and I've learned to compartmentalize.

1276
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 6: I'd say the best I can, but but I won't

1277
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 6: pretend it doesn't take a toll. It absolutely takes a toll.

1278
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 6: And that in the one episode where we dive into

1279
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 6: there's one where we dive into the emotional cost for

1280
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 6: first responders, episode five with Tangilias Sears, and we touch

1281
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 6: on this and the truth is, listen, LA enforcement has

1282
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 6: some of the highest suicide and alcoholism rates any profession.

1283
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 6: More officers, as a matter of fact, die die by

1284
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 6: suicide than in the line of duty. You would think

1285
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 6: it's different right now with so much police officers right now,

1286
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 6: but yeah, more officers die in the United States by

1287
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 6: suicide than in the line of duty.

1288
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 4: And that the numbers prove that.

1289
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 6: And that's why I supported organizations like Bleeding Blue. These

1290
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:20,719
Speaker 6: are two Miami Dade County sheriffs and deputies. They're brothers,

1291
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:24,799
Speaker 6: friends of mine, and they formed this nonprofit. They're doing

1292
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:30,280
Speaker 6: this amazing work organizing peer support groups, counseling resources, and

1293
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 6: conferences to help first responders. When I graduated the Police

1294
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 6: Academy when I was nineteen, there was a block on

1295
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 6: you know, a mental health. The psyche is there if

1296
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 6: you need to talk to them after a shooting or

1297
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 6: after a critical incident. But the truth of it is

1298
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 6: that not too many people follow up on that.

1299
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 4: It was at that.

1300
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 6: Time kind of looked down upon, not just for police,

1301
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 6: but also for fire and rescue first responders.

1302
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 3: You know, it seems like weaker or something like that.

1303
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 3: They think like, oh, something's wrong with him or her,

1304
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 3: like they need psych like they're weak, they're not strong

1305
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 3: as unfortunately, sendings to them. Oh that's horrible. I think

1306
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 3: that's a society thing though too. I think society was

1307
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 3: doing all that unfortunately.

1308
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then think also if you're if you're a

1309
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 6: police officer and you're just seen a traumatic event, it's

1310
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 6: not the nine typical nine to five job right.

1311
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 4: Right where you know, Hey, honey, how was how was

1312
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 4: work today?

1313
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 6: Oh? So and so got a new promotion and I

1314
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 6: got a new office and everything went fine. No, I

1315
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 6: just a police officer comes home, you know, they take

1316
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,599
Speaker 6: their bulletproof vest off and hang up their duty belt,

1317
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 6: and they're trying to not remember that person that they

1318
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 6: did CPR on, that that passed away, the kid that

1319
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 6: they pulled out of a pool, that they didn't make it.

1320
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 6: You know, someone that was stabbed to death, or a

1321
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 6: gunshot victim, or somebody you know in real bad shape

1322
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 6: in a car accident. These are all real emotions. So

1323
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 6: we need more of these conversations and like the ones

1324
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 6: we're having right now, to explain that these are these

1325
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 6: are real traumas, and that the first responders have a

1326
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,599
Speaker 6: very very they carry a lot.

1327
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, they did well, and just like victims are real

1328
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 3: people and we need to humanize them, so are the cops, right,

1329
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 3: the cops that are experiencing this. I just watched a

1330
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 3: body cam footage of I think it was out of Baltimore,

1331
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 3: and it was a couple of cops pulled this woman

1332
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:21,759
Speaker 3: over and in her trunk in a suitcase for two children.

1333
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 3: And when they discovered this, these cops broke down. I

1334
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 3: mean it was and they were very upset, and it

1335
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:32,719
Speaker 3: really humanized I don't know why I didn't think about

1336
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:35,879
Speaker 3: cops as being, you know, having these kinds of problems,

1337
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 3: but they were horrified and so sad. They were babies,

1338
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 3: you know, And so I mean it is important to

1339
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:46,440
Speaker 3: remember that police officers and law enforcement and first responders

1340
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 3: are human and they have to witness the most horrific

1341
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 3: thing on the worst day possible for someone, and we

1342
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 3: need to be a little bit nicer to cops, even

1343
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 3: though I don't want to be to.

1344
01:10:58,240 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 4: The nice ones.

1345
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 6: We do will say and be totally transparent and honest

1346
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 6: that you know, there's people that shouldn't be wearing their.

1347
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,799
Speaker 3: Right it's in every profession, right, Like in every profession,

1348
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,920
Speaker 3: people probably shouldn't be doing those jobs. But in the

1349
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 3: case of like cops, though, they wield a lot of power,

1350
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 3: so there's a bad power dynamic with those bad people.

1351
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 3: But hopefully those are a farm few between.

1352
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:22,880
Speaker 6: They are majority of officer men and women in the

1353
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 6: United States. Are they do it for the right reasons?

1354
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 6: I agree, and they're true professionals.

1355
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,799
Speaker 7: And I think just off of what you said, body

1356
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 7: of being, you know, surprised to see and break down.

1357
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 7: I think it is also because so many of us,

1358
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 7: myself included, you know, we grew up and it's almost

1359
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:45,760
Speaker 7: like policemen when women.

1360
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 3: Fire men and women.

1361
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 7: Are superheroes and you just hold them in that and

1362
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 7: then you think, you know, you don't actually think of, oh,

1363
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 7: these are human beings and they need to actually deal

1364
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 7: with these emotions as well, so, Enrique, I believe you've

1365
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,639
Speaker 7: called Cold Case Files Miami a mission.

1366
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1367
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 3: Is there an impact that you hope this podcast has?

1368
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 4: For sure?

1369
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:12,320
Speaker 6: Again, listen, if we can solve just on one cold

1370
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 6: case or get one step closer to justice, I feel

1371
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 6: like it was all worth it. But beyond solving crimes,

1372
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 6: I hope that this podcast helps. Like we just spoke

1373
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 6: about humanizing the victims, humanizing the players that are involved,

1374
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 6: that the public understands that police officers want these things,

1375
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 6: these cases solve just as much as the victims do,

1376
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 6: and it's very frustrating for them too when they hit,

1377
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 6: you know, legal crossroads, when they hit a brick wall,

1378
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 6: when they don't get people to cooperate for whatever the

1379
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 6: reasons are. And there are many reasons why people won't

1380
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,640
Speaker 6: come forward and don't want to cooperate, But people like

1381
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 6: Joyce sapin episode four, a community leader like Lauren's Webb

1382
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 6: again in episode two, who just just begun rebuilding his life,

1383
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 6: or like the three women murdered in the early two

1384
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 6: thousands stories Detective Zachary Scott that we spoke about and

1385
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 6: that he helped us revisit in episode six, they were

1386
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:14,479
Speaker 6: more than victims. These were daughters, neighbors, professional students, people

1387
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:16,840
Speaker 6: just like you and I, right like us, and their

1388
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,679
Speaker 6: stories deserve to be heard, remembered, and these victims deserve

1389
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 6: to be to be honored. So I feel that we're

1390
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 6: honoring them in telling their stories.

1391
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, as a listener, I couldn't agree more. Absolutely.

1392
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 7: You know, it feels important what you're talking about in

1393
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 7: the stories you're telling.

1394
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 6: And I'm proud. I don't know if this happens to you,

1395
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 6: to you do. Two, when you listen to your podcast,

1396
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 6: you don't listen, Okay, you sound like me and my

1397
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 6: radio show.

1398
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:44,720
Speaker 4: I try not to listen.

1399
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 6: I don't like listening to my voice, and I get

1400
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 6: really picky, and then why would Yeah, so I overthink things.

1401
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 6: But when I listened to this final product, I've actually

1402
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 6: the first one, of course I heard, was was episode

1403
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:00,600
Speaker 6: one with Brian Herr. But I was so proud of

1404
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 6: of our team at iHeart and a School of Humans

1405
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 6: because they really transported. They did it such an excellent job,

1406
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:12,679
Speaker 6: mixing in the stories and investigating and helping me find

1407
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:16,679
Speaker 6: the victims, family members and the detectives involved.

1408
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,320
Speaker 4: They did a phenomenal job. I'm proud of the work

1409
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 4: that we've done.

1410
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 3: You should be. I mean, like you said, are very

1411
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 3: well rounded. Even just one is monumental and a closure

1412
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 3: for this family. Like you said, I think I've used

1413
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 3: this term before too. They're living in suspended animation, like

1414
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 3: their life is completely on hold. Right. I had a

1415
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:40,599
Speaker 3: cousin that went missing for twenty one years, and you know,

1416
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 3: my aunt was one hundred percent suspended animation her whole life,

1417
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 3: well not her whole life, but a big portion of

1418
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 3: her life.

1419
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 4: How'd she deal with that?

1420
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:53,160
Speaker 3: She drank? But yeah, I mean it's you know, she's

1421
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 3: gone now, bless her, but you know it's horrific. So

1422
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 3: just just one family and that in the a butterfly

1423
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 3: effect that has, you know, outward to you know, extended

1424
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 3: family and even coworkers and friends and neighbors. You're changing

1425
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 3: so many lives by just solving one of those cases.

1426
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:16,839
Speaker 3: So hats off to you. I mean that, I really.

1427
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you, thank you know what.

1428
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 6: To me, I say, hats off to the investigators, to

1429
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 6: the family who keeps knocking on doors, and to all

1430
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 6: the people that that opened up and that shared their

1431
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 6: their stories of their their loved ones with us.

1432
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 3: Wow, Enrica. What can listeners do if they recognize something?

1433
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:36,720
Speaker 7: If they have information about a featured case in your podcast?

1434
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 3: What's actionable?

1435
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 6: Well, if something you hear in the podcast, you know sparks,

1436
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 6: sparks some memory, or you know someone who might have

1437
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 6: seen something or say something, say something I would say,

1438
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:52,200
Speaker 6: you know, speak up, contact your local police department, or

1439
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 6: if you prefer to stay anonymous, you can reach out

1440
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 6: to crime stoppers. There's the national hotline one eight sixty

1441
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 6: six four seven one tip where you can visit crime

1442
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 6: Stoppers three oh five dot com.

1443
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:05,719
Speaker 4: No details too small?

1444
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:09,759
Speaker 6: Something you think that is totally insignificant, not important, could

1445
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 6: be that one missing piece that brings me.

1446
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 3: And it might be just such a small detail that

1447
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 3: ties that loop. Right. I always tell people the details,

1448
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 3: the devils in the details, The details matter. The tiniest,

1449
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:25,599
Speaker 3: most insignificant thing can make that makes sense, That that

1450
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 3: tip you got ten years ago makes sense.

1451
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,799
Speaker 6: And that one little tip could bring peace to a family,

1452
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:32,840
Speaker 6: right that's been waiting far too long.

1453
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 3: Right, Wow, well, thank you so much, Thank you.

1454
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 7: Absolutely anything else, Enrique. We've held you hostage and wes

1455
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:45,200
Speaker 7: your time. But is there anything else? Listeners?

1456
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:48,799
Speaker 3: Sho know where to find you, where to listen to you, anything.

1457
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:52,719
Speaker 6: Absolutely, thanks again, congratulations on true crime Tonight.

1458
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 4: I'm a fan.

1459
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 6: I host a nationally syndicated Spanish show out of Miami

1460
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 6: across the country. We broadcast from two ninety four point

1461
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 6: nine FM in Miami. I also host On the Move

1462
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 6: with Drique Santos that runs nationally on iHeartRadio from coast

1463
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 6: to coast on Saturday evenings. I'm probably hosting Miami Cold

1464
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:15,560
Speaker 6: Case Files. I've got a little bit of backlash, like

1465
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:19,799
Speaker 6: you're giving Miami a bad light with this podcast. Miami

1466
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 6: isn't just beaches in nightlife. We're a lot of fun

1467
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 6: Miami and the three h five is home to me.

1468
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 6: I love it. It's a Miami is a city of secrets,

1469
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 6: cultures colliding, and the stories buried beneath the heat. Cold

1470
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:33,920
Speaker 6: Case Files Miami, we were digging deep into the side

1471
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 6: of Miami. You don't see your coworker post it on

1472
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 6: Instagram or on TikTok and bikini on the on the

1473
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 6: beach sipping Pinacola.

1474
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:43,680
Speaker 4: But these are true stories.

1475
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 6: Involving true people, and hopefully we're able to bring some

1476
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 6: closure to much needed closure to these families that there's family.

1477
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,759
Speaker 6: Their lives have been turned upside down by no choice

1478
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 6: of theirs, by these violent, horrific events.

1479
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 3: I'm so honored to meet you, like for real, I'm

1480
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 3: not even the same, so honored. Thank you so much

1481
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:04,320
Speaker 3: for being here and for all the incredible work you're

1482
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:06,800
Speaker 3: doing with Cold Case Files Miami. You can listen to

1483
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 3: the podcast wherever you get your shows, and if you

1484
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 3: have info on a case, don't hesitate to speak up,

1485
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 3: keep it here on True Crime Tonight. Be safe and

1486
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 3: be well and have a good one. Thank you, good night,

1487
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:19,080
Speaker 3: good night.