WEBVTT - The New Pornographers 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.156 --> 0:00:22.756 The New Pornographers have never been easy to pin down. 0:00:23.156 --> 0:00:25.556 Since forming in Vancouver in the late nineties, the band 0:00:25.556 --> 0:00:28.036 became one of the defining acts of the Canadian indie 0:00:28.116 --> 0:00:30.716 rock explosion, the part of a scene that also produced 0:00:30.796 --> 0:00:34.036 Nico Case Destroyer and a generation of artists who seemed 0:00:34.076 --> 0:00:38.876 to operate entirely outside the commercial mainstream. Co founders Carl 0:00:38.956 --> 0:00:41.676 Newman and Katherine Calder have spent more than two decades 0:00:41.716 --> 0:00:45.876 making records that are densely layered, relentlessly melodic, and somehow 0:00:45.916 --> 0:00:50.076 both euphoork and melancholic at the same time. Their latest album, 0:00:50.156 --> 0:00:52.796 The Former Site Of draws on a different kind of 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:56.076 raw material. Part of it came from a friend's terminal 0:00:56.156 --> 0:00:58.476 illness in the weight of watching someone you love recking 0:00:58.476 --> 0:01:01.476 with time running out. Part of it came from something 0:01:01.516 --> 0:01:04.956 more unexpected, the last remaining payphone in New York City, 0:01:05.196 --> 0:01:07.716 which became a kind of anchor image for the record, 0:01:07.876 --> 0:01:11.116 a physical object standing in for everything we hold on 0:01:11.196 --> 0:01:15.916 to after it stops being useful. On today's episode, Bruce 0:01:15.956 --> 0:01:18.396 headlam sits down with Carl Newman and Katherine call There 0:01:18.436 --> 0:01:21.156 to talk about what their new album came from. What 0:01:21.196 --> 0:01:23.716 it's like to make something beautiful out of grief, and 0:01:23.756 --> 0:01:26.476 how the Canadian music scene that shaped them still runs 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:33.476 through everything they do. This is Broken Record, real musicians, 0:01:33.716 --> 0:01:41.956 real conversations. Here's Bruce Headlam with Carl Newman and Catherine 0:01:41.996 --> 0:01:44.556 call There. Head over to YouTube dot com slash Broken 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:46.436 Record Podcast if you want to see the video. 0:01:48.196 --> 0:01:50.916 So tell me first of all about the name of 0:01:50.956 --> 0:01:53.556 the new album and explain that to me. The former 0:01:53.636 --> 0:01:55.156 site of well this is I. 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:56.996 Have a great answer. I have a great answer. It's 0:01:57.076 --> 0:02:00.116 kind of a long answer. Living in upstate New York, 0:02:00.956 --> 0:02:04.636 I would drive past the reservoirs they you know, which 0:02:04.716 --> 0:02:06.996 is where in New York City water comes from the 0:02:07.356 --> 0:02:10.676 Kren Reservoir, the nearby the one near us ya Choken 0:02:10.796 --> 0:02:13.396 Reservoir has a sign next to it that says the 0:02:13.436 --> 0:02:16.636 former site of West Hurley. And when I saw that sign, 0:02:16.676 --> 0:02:19.116 I was kind of fascinated, like what happened to West Hurley? 0:02:19.156 --> 0:02:22.116 And I started looking into the history, and around like 0:02:22.236 --> 0:02:26.316 nineteen oh five, New York decided, you know, we need 0:02:26.316 --> 0:02:30.556 these areas for the reservoirs. So they they got towns 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:34.236 to just uproot and leave, and they said, we'll buy 0:02:34.236 --> 0:02:36.076 your property. But if you won't sell it to us, 0:02:36.076 --> 0:02:37.636 well we're going to take it anyway, so you might 0:02:37.676 --> 0:02:42.436 as well sell it to us. So parts of the 0:02:42.436 --> 0:02:45.276 towns just got raised, and then anything they wanted to say, 0:02:45.476 --> 0:02:49.076 they put the cars on wagons or sorry the they 0:02:49.156 --> 0:02:51.276 put the buildings on wagons, and it took them away. 0:02:51.836 --> 0:02:52.196 And so. 0:02:55.236 --> 0:02:58.396 I was I was fascinated by the idea, and I 0:02:58.436 --> 0:03:01.916 wrote the song the Former Site of about that, which is, 0:03:02.956 --> 0:03:07.276 you know, about a church, about a preacher who decides 0:03:07.956 --> 0:03:09.916 he's going to stay with the church. It's like, I'm 0:03:09.956 --> 0:03:12.436 just gonna and the water is rising around him and 0:03:12.476 --> 0:03:14.596 he's sitting on the roof and he's about to die 0:03:14.676 --> 0:03:19.756 because he's going to be flooded. And I thought that 0:03:19.916 --> 0:03:24.236 was an interesting little story to try and tell. And 0:03:25.476 --> 0:03:28.836 I also I also thought, like with all the changes 0:03:28.956 --> 0:03:32.556 the bands have gone has gone through through the years, 0:03:33.236 --> 0:03:35.716 to call our record the former site of and on 0:03:35.756 --> 0:03:38.676 the record it basically reads us the former site of 0:03:38.716 --> 0:03:40.116 the New Pornographers. 0:03:40.396 --> 0:03:42.356 I thought I thought it was a. 0:03:42.356 --> 0:03:47.516 Kind of you know, it was a slight slightly slightly ironic, 0:03:47.596 --> 0:03:51.956 but an element of truth there about you know, various 0:03:51.996 --> 0:03:54.316 things that have changed through the years, good and bad, 0:03:54.996 --> 0:03:59.236 and and also just my my urge to always want 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:03.236 to change, you know, like I want I want the 0:04:03.236 --> 0:04:09.676 pornographers to be something different. But the the weird ps 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:14.236 to that story, that is, we just played WDST, a 0:04:14.356 --> 0:04:18.356 radio station outside of Woodstock, and it's in a church, 0:04:19.956 --> 0:04:23.436 and I found out right before we started playing that 0:04:24.436 --> 0:04:27.476 it was a church that had actually been moved from 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:28.196 West Hurley. 0:04:28.556 --> 0:04:28.796 Wow. 0:04:28.956 --> 0:04:33.756 So it was essentially we were playing we were playing 0:04:33.756 --> 0:04:36.796 this song about the church in West Hurley inside that 0:04:36.956 --> 0:04:40.916 actual church that used to be in West Hurley, which 0:04:40.956 --> 0:04:42.436 I thought was kind of mind blowing. 0:04:42.876 --> 0:04:45.556 Yeah, for people like me who bought your first album 0:04:45.556 --> 0:04:47.916 when it came out and been following you along, tell 0:04:47.956 --> 0:04:52.716 me what's changed in your songwriting between those early days 0:04:53.196 --> 0:04:56.636 and this new album. 0:04:57.276 --> 0:05:00.516 Well, I mean, I know what's changed in my songwriting 0:05:00.516 --> 0:05:03.076 in the last few years. I think I decided to 0:05:03.116 --> 0:05:09.076 write very narrative songs on this album, or a lot 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:14.236 a lot more narrative songs, songs that were clear, not 0:05:14.276 --> 0:05:17.316 like I'm trying to write Glory Days by Springsteen or anything, 0:05:17.356 --> 0:05:19.436 but I just wanted songs that were a little clearer. 0:05:19.596 --> 0:05:22.916 I think I think if i've if I was trying 0:05:22.916 --> 0:05:25.916 to write like anyone. I'd say Leonard Cohen, you know, 0:05:26.076 --> 0:05:31.636 like the the pictures he paints in like Suzanne or 0:05:31.716 --> 0:05:35.796 Sisters of Mercy, which is a kind of high thing 0:05:35.876 --> 0:05:38.116 to shoot for. But you got to shoot for something high, 0:05:38.636 --> 0:05:43.276 and so that's different to me. And also I'm I 0:05:43.316 --> 0:05:46.676 know how to I never used to know anything about engineering. 0:05:47.716 --> 0:05:50.156 I used to stand behind John Collins, our bass player, 0:05:50.196 --> 0:05:51.236 and say do this, do this? 0:05:51.276 --> 0:05:54.396 Can you make it? Do this? And and now I 0:05:54.396 --> 0:05:56.716 can do a lot of that stuff on my own. 0:05:58.476 --> 0:06:02.036 Which I love because it means like I can, you know, 0:06:02.156 --> 0:06:04.636 any given day, I can just go to my studio 0:06:04.676 --> 0:06:08.556 space and just work for a couple hours and engineer, 0:06:08.636 --> 0:06:14.396 and like, I can do everything now except play instruments. Well, 0:06:14.516 --> 0:06:16.996 but it's rock and roll music, so I can get 0:06:17.036 --> 0:06:19.716 away with not doing that. And plus I have other 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:21.276 people that can play instruments. Well. 0:06:23.276 --> 0:06:27.476 That's interesting because this album, to me was the writing 0:06:27.516 --> 0:06:29.356 felt different, not on every song, but. 0:06:29.356 --> 0:06:31.716 Oh to me, it feels very different. Yeah. 0:06:31.796 --> 0:06:35.036 But you know, the I think of your songs, you know, 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:42.396 particularly on your big albums like Real Bruisers or Morse Code, 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:46.836 they're very linear songs. They start with a big hook, 0:06:46.996 --> 0:06:50.156 they go to you know, verse chorus, middle eight, They're 0:06:50.196 --> 0:06:53.716 often quite different. This one felt like it was built differently, 0:06:53.956 --> 0:06:55.956 Like it was built in layers. Almost. 0:06:57.076 --> 0:06:58.556 Yeah, I think that. 0:06:58.796 --> 0:07:02.436 I mean, I like, I don't. I wouldn't call it 0:07:02.476 --> 0:07:06.236 a concept album, but I think I wanted it to 0:07:06.236 --> 0:07:10.076 all fit together. I wanted it to I wanted to 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:13.516 have a similar feel. I wanted it lyrically and have 0:07:13.596 --> 0:07:16.196 a similar feel. I mean, even to the extent that 0:07:16.276 --> 0:07:20.756 the final song, the former site of like name checks 0:07:21.676 --> 0:07:25.636 characters from the previous songs, like I just wanted to have, 0:07:27.076 --> 0:07:28.756 you know, I think I've said to people I wanted 0:07:28.756 --> 0:07:30.356 it to feel a little bit like a little book 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:33.796 of short stories. But that feels like a slightly pretentious 0:07:33.836 --> 0:07:38.716 thing to say. But that's I guess you gotta. 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:41.716 Shoot for maximum, you know, pretense. 0:07:41.996 --> 0:07:47.036 It's a very pretentious thing. Yes, that's what makes it work. Yes, well, 0:07:47.116 --> 0:07:49.796 some of you. Some of these songs reminded me of 0:07:50.996 --> 0:07:56.476 particular short stories. The I want to get the title right, 0:07:56.676 --> 0:07:59.276 and I always write these things down. Wish you could 0:07:59.316 --> 0:08:01.156 see me. I'm killing it. Tell me about that song. 0:08:02.636 --> 0:08:06.276 I mean that one is essentially just something very real 0:08:06.916 --> 0:08:11.356 that happened and I think I just fictionalized slightly, and 0:08:11.436 --> 0:08:14.036 it was both of my parents have passed away, and 0:08:14.196 --> 0:08:17.596 a few years ago I was at the flower store 0:08:17.636 --> 0:08:22.916 and you're the graveyard, the cemetery, and I was buying 0:08:22.996 --> 0:08:26.876 flowers and I got this really nice, you know, bouquet 0:08:26.876 --> 0:08:28.636 from my mom, and then I was looking for my dad, 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:31.356 and I started thinking, like, he didn't care about flowers, 0:08:32.556 --> 0:08:33.916 you know, so I bought him. 0:08:34.596 --> 0:08:37.916 I bought him like flowers and were quite as nice as. 0:08:37.716 --> 0:08:41.676 My mom's, because I just thought like he he doesn't care, 0:08:42.116 --> 0:08:43.676 like my dad would be like, no, what are you 0:08:43.996 --> 0:08:46.516 spending flowers? You know, why would you spend forty dollars 0:08:46.516 --> 0:08:49.396 getting me flowers? Get those ones that are on sale. 0:08:49.756 --> 0:08:51.676 And and then. 0:08:51.676 --> 0:08:53.556 That just made it just made me think about how 0:08:53.556 --> 0:08:55.836 we talk I guess how we talked to the dead, 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:57.996 which is even a line one of one of the 0:08:58.076 --> 0:08:59.676 last lines in the Former Sight of. 0:09:01.156 --> 0:09:03.036 We find our own ways to talk to the dead. 0:09:04.316 --> 0:09:08.916 And then from there I started thinking about you know, 0:09:08.956 --> 0:09:10.996 it was a song, It was a song about that, 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:16.636 but then it became more about this person who's who 0:09:17.156 --> 0:09:22.636 has spent so long buying flowers for his parents' graves 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:25.876 that he knows a lot about flowers now, and he 0:09:25.916 --> 0:09:27.676 can and he can tell you, and he can tell 0:09:27.676 --> 0:09:32.316 you about flower arranging. So there there's something kind of darkly, 0:09:33.116 --> 0:09:35.876 darkly comic in there, but it's also meant to. 0:09:35.836 --> 0:09:37.956 Be kind of a knife to the gut. 0:09:38.116 --> 0:09:38.316 You know. 0:09:38.476 --> 0:09:41.316 It's one of the few songs I think I've ever written. 0:09:41.396 --> 0:09:43.756 I almost like made myself cry writing it. 0:09:45.596 --> 0:09:48.436 And it's also the line like I wish you could 0:09:48.436 --> 0:09:50.316 see me I'm killing it is a little. 0:09:50.076 --> 0:09:54.836 Like like I'm not exactly sure what I meant, you know, 0:09:55.916 --> 0:10:01.796 Like it means both I wish you could see everything 0:10:01.836 --> 0:10:04.756 I've done, but it also it also means. 0:10:05.956 --> 0:10:09.076 I'm kind of you know, I don't think I'm killing it. 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:11.316 M M, I give you some help. 0:10:13.556 --> 0:10:16.596 But yeah, what came across to me was the narrator 0:10:16.676 --> 0:10:20.236 felt a little foolish, a little overwhelmed. 0:10:21.116 --> 0:10:23.396 Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, I think, I think 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:28.956 there's that. But yeah, that was yeah that I felt 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:30.756 very happy about that, that song. 0:10:31.276 --> 0:10:33.716 You know what it reminded me of, And now that 0:10:33.796 --> 0:10:35.356 I know the origin of the song has nothing to 0:10:35.396 --> 0:10:39.196 do with it. The James Joyce story. Araby, do you 0:10:39.196 --> 0:10:39.756 know that story? 0:10:39.796 --> 0:10:39.956 No? 0:10:39.956 --> 0:10:43.276 No, Oh, it's in Dubliner's it's a kid who goes 0:10:43.396 --> 0:10:45.596 to a little fair to buy a present for this 0:10:45.676 --> 0:10:50.116 girly lins and it's he's overwhelmed. It's getting dark, the 0:10:50.156 --> 0:10:52.876 fair is closing and he can't buy anything, and he 0:10:53.036 --> 0:10:56.956 just there's this terrible line at the end when he 0:10:56.996 --> 0:11:00.356 feels like, I think a creature, a creature derided by vanity. 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:03.076 I think is the line, and just kind of that 0:11:03.196 --> 0:11:04.676 sense of being a little overwhelmed. 0:11:05.476 --> 0:11:08.316 That's I think. I think, I think there is that. 0:11:08.636 --> 0:11:13.916 I think there is that that element of it. Yeah, 0:11:13.956 --> 0:11:17.236 because that ultimately I didn't I don't know anything about flowers, 0:11:17.436 --> 0:11:20.236 you know, but uh but I guess this character I 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:22.996 was trying to write kind of kind of does. 0:11:23.916 --> 0:11:28.436 Did writing more narratively Did that change the melody writing 0:11:28.476 --> 0:11:28.716 at all? 0:11:29.756 --> 0:11:31.996 It did? We were just talking about that last night. 0:11:34.356 --> 0:11:39.916 I think I just became less precious about melody or 0:11:39.996 --> 0:11:43.476 like like I would write a melody and then when 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:46.636 the melody met the lyrics, when the melody met the lyrics, 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:51.436 and when they both met performance, like whatever I had 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:53.116 to change to make it feel better. 0:11:52.996 --> 0:11:53.436 I would. 0:11:55.236 --> 0:11:56.676 Is that different for you before you came? 0:11:57.156 --> 0:11:58.756 Yeah, I think I I think I as used to 0:11:58.756 --> 0:12:01.316 think like, this is this is the melody I wrote, 0:12:01.316 --> 0:12:04.036 and sometimes it'd be like it's hard to sing. It's like, well, 0:12:04.716 --> 0:12:06.956 you know, I guess I will go into falsetto and 0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:09.716 sing it, you know, like like I I would bend 0:12:09.716 --> 0:12:13.196 around whatever the melody was in this one, and maybe 0:12:13.316 --> 0:12:17.036 on the last one as well, and then the one 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:18.836 before that. I think I think about a few years ago, 0:12:18.916 --> 0:12:23.276 I started thinking, just changed the melody and just sing 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:26.676 what feels good. The first song I remember doing that 0:12:26.756 --> 0:12:30.756 on was a song called falling down the Stairs of 0:12:30.796 --> 0:12:34.476 Your Smile from Morse Code to Break Lights. I remember 0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:40.236 I wasn't sure about it and then I just I 0:12:40.316 --> 0:12:42.676 just sang. I just sang it again. I just wanted 0:12:42.676 --> 0:12:44.596 to find it. Yeah, because I remember that I wanted 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:47.356 to drop it. I was in her her husband call 0:12:47.476 --> 0:12:51.796 and mixed it and I remember saying like this isn't 0:12:51.796 --> 0:12:53.916 working on to drop in him turning around, going this 0:12:53.996 --> 0:12:56.436 is the best song on the record, and I said, okay, 0:12:56.436 --> 0:12:58.956 well I guess I should finish it, and yeah, and 0:12:58.996 --> 0:13:01.036 I just I just I just sang it until I 0:13:01.196 --> 0:13:04.276 found something that felt good singing, and I thought, and 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:06.436 then that really worked. It became like the single and 0:13:06.476 --> 0:13:08.396 I think it was the best song on the record, 0:13:08.476 --> 0:13:14.356 and and I think I carried that into continue as 0:13:14.356 --> 0:13:16.876 a guest. And on this record, I mean, there's an 0:13:16.916 --> 0:13:20.596 infinite amount of melodies. I mean it's nice, it's maddening, 0:13:21.236 --> 0:13:23.396 but it's just there are. 0:13:23.276 --> 0:13:26.316 So many melodies, Like why not change the melody? It's like. 0:13:28.916 --> 0:13:32.236 Before, were you, uh we a writer who just got 0:13:32.276 --> 0:13:34.596 the harmony down for the song and then pulled the 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:35.396 melody out of that. 0:13:37.836 --> 0:13:41.076 I don't know. I think it usually started with a melody. 0:13:41.636 --> 0:13:44.356 Really yeah, It's like. 0:13:42.676 --> 0:13:48.756 Like chords and a melody are or sometimes I would 0:13:48.756 --> 0:13:53.316 just kind of sing something just like into my into 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:57.356 my phone, into my voice notes, and and then I'd 0:13:57.356 --> 0:13:59.436 go and play the chords, Go what are the chords 0:13:59.436 --> 0:14:02.716 of this? Sometimes I hate to find out what the 0:14:02.796 --> 0:14:06.716 chords are. Sometimes it ruins it really. Sometimes you think 0:14:06.756 --> 0:14:09.596 you've come up with something really interesting. It's like, oh, 0:14:09.636 --> 0:14:13.276 the chords are G, C and D. That's so boring. 0:14:13.836 --> 0:14:18.356 But then it's amazing when you realize, oh, yeah, the 0:14:18.476 --> 0:14:20.996 chords are C minor and A minor. 0:14:21.476 --> 0:14:23.276 That's weird. You know. 0:14:24.316 --> 0:14:28.156 This album also felt a little fewer chords in this album, 0:14:28.156 --> 0:14:32.956 maybe a little less harmonically complex earlier album. 0:14:33.236 --> 0:14:37.236 Yeah, I think that, although there's still when I when 0:14:37.236 --> 0:14:40.436 I play the songs now, there's more chords than I 0:14:40.476 --> 0:14:45.156 think there are, like you know, like for for us, 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:47.236 like a song that doesn't have very many chords is 0:14:47.276 --> 0:14:52.116 six chords, you know, but you know, lou Reid said 0:14:52.156 --> 0:14:57.836 any more than two chords is jazz. So I'm I 0:14:57.876 --> 0:15:00.596 think another thing I've done and tried to do in 0:15:00.636 --> 0:15:04.476 the last decade was just see how much you can 0:15:04.556 --> 0:15:10.516 move around with not very many chords, because you know, 0:15:11.356 --> 0:15:14.836 just like there are infinite amounts of melodies, there are 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:19.396 kind of infinite places you can go within two chords. 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:24.196 Like sometimes I just like the cycle back and forth 0:15:24.276 --> 0:15:27.196 between like G and A just two chords that are 0:15:27.476 --> 0:15:30.396 just a step apart, and there's so much you can do. 0:15:32.156 --> 0:15:34.676 You know, you can write, you can write a hundred 0:15:34.716 --> 0:15:37.756 songs that are different that are just cycling back and 0:15:37.796 --> 0:15:40.996 forth between A G. There's so many things you can change, 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:46.276 the tempo, the way it's syncopated, the melody, just the vibe. 0:15:47.836 --> 0:15:49.356 It's great to hear you say that, because I think 0:15:49.356 --> 0:15:53.476 a lot of musicians fear the opposite, that they only 0:15:53.516 --> 0:15:58.036 know a few chords, there are only twelve notes. Maybe 0:15:58.116 --> 0:16:00.436 it's all been done well. 0:16:01.556 --> 0:16:07.636 I that really annoys me, you know, I think it's 0:16:07.756 --> 0:16:12.196 just laziness, you know. I think if you can't figure 0:16:12.196 --> 0:16:13.996 out how to do it, and you don't want to 0:16:13.996 --> 0:16:15.436 figure out how to do it, I don't know what 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:16.556 to tell you. 0:16:15.916 --> 0:16:16.796 You know. 0:16:17.876 --> 0:16:20.916 Do you work hard at songwriting just something you do 0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:21.396 every day? 0:16:21.676 --> 0:16:23.996 Yeah? I do. I try to. 0:16:24.116 --> 0:16:27.156 I mean I feel like it's part of like I 0:16:27.156 --> 0:16:30.236 think it's part of like, you know, mental health process, 0:16:30.276 --> 0:16:32.036 you know, Like I think I think it's good just 0:16:32.076 --> 0:16:37.436 to to use your brain. You know, like in some 0:16:37.476 --> 0:16:39.796 ways it doesn't feel that dissimilar to going on in 0:16:39.916 --> 0:16:44.436 New York Times spelling bee, you know, like like like 0:16:44.516 --> 0:16:47.316 I'm trying to find an answer, you know, like I've 0:16:47.756 --> 0:16:50.756 but it's a puzzle. It's a puzzle I invented, you know. 0:16:50.916 --> 0:16:53.956 It's it's a it's an amorphis puzzle that I invented. 0:16:53.956 --> 0:16:56.436 And I'm like, how do you solve this puzzle? And like, 0:16:56.516 --> 0:16:57.556 I know there's an answer. 0:16:57.836 --> 0:17:00.636 Yeah. By the way, the panagram today is befouled. Just 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:02.956 want you to know I know that I've already done it. Okay, Well, 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:03.396 there you go. 0:17:03.996 --> 0:17:06.916 Genius by the way, not Queen Bee. But it was 0:17:06.916 --> 0:17:08.076 a pretty easy one today. 0:17:08.156 --> 0:17:09.396 Yeah hard. 0:17:11.036 --> 0:17:13.236 We'll be back with more from the New Pornographers after 0:17:13.276 --> 0:17:13.716 the break. 0:17:17.996 --> 0:17:21.956 So, Catherine, when you saw these songs, could you present 0:17:21.996 --> 0:17:23.076 them to the band? Right? 0:17:23.476 --> 0:17:25.996 Yeah? Yeah, well altogether. 0:17:26.116 --> 0:17:27.756 No, But what did you think? What was what was 0:17:27.756 --> 0:17:32.316 your first reaction and what did you think you could add? 0:17:32.636 --> 0:17:37.516 I don't know, I just I I guess I approached 0:17:37.556 --> 0:17:40.556 these songs when Carl sends them to me with a 0:17:41.996 --> 0:17:45.156 kind of a sense of I'll just do what comes 0:17:45.156 --> 0:17:46.916 to me, and I'll send it back. 0:17:47.156 --> 0:17:48.516 And we'll see how it goes. 0:17:49.316 --> 0:17:51.476 Knowing that, knowing that, you know, I think a lot 0:17:51.476 --> 0:17:55.476 of things are going to change between the time I've 0:17:55.516 --> 0:17:58.196 listened to that version of the song and the final version. 0:17:58.356 --> 0:18:00.876 Because I've been in a band with Carl for over 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:03.596 twenty years now, Yeah, and I know the process and 0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:07.276 the process itself hasn't changed that much. No, like over 0:18:07.316 --> 0:18:09.836 the you know, except from now. You know, I'm more 0:18:09.876 --> 0:18:12.796 able to do things from my own house, which is 0:18:13.116 --> 0:18:18.036 awesome because it means I have more personal control over 0:18:18.076 --> 0:18:21.516 what I'm doing and my knowledge has increased. Like to 0:18:21.556 --> 0:18:23.996 be able to do that kind of like you're you 0:18:23.996 --> 0:18:27.116 were just saying, you know, you can record on your own, 0:18:27.116 --> 0:18:29.316 and now so can I. And that wasn't the case 0:18:29.356 --> 0:18:33.236 when I first joined the band, so so that personally 0:18:33.276 --> 0:18:38.036 has changed. But yeah, I just expect unexpected twists and 0:18:38.076 --> 0:18:41.756 turns and adjust accordingly, and. 0:18:42.156 --> 0:18:44.236 I love it and it usually comes. 0:18:44.956 --> 0:18:47.756 Like I think Catherine and Todd, Fancy and John Collins, 0:18:48.796 --> 0:18:50.116 I mean, I think they all kind of. 0:18:50.076 --> 0:18:50.436 Like know. 0:18:52.556 --> 0:18:55.836 How I work or not, maybe not how I want 0:18:55.836 --> 0:18:58.756 to work, but just how I'm doomed to work. And 0:18:58.996 --> 0:19:01.116 they they will they will always send me like a 0:19:01.156 --> 0:19:04.436 bunch of ideas for a song, Like Fancy never gives 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:06.756 me a full take, like he will play a cool 0:19:06.956 --> 0:19:09.116 guitar part and it only is only in the first 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:13.076 forty five seconds because I think he knows, like, like 0:19:13.116 --> 0:19:16.596 what's the point. Like like if I if I find 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:18.596 something that he did that I totally love, I will 0:19:18.596 --> 0:19:21.236 go back and go, can you do a full take 0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:23.436 of that? And usually I will like paste it up 0:19:23.756 --> 0:19:24.996 and and I'll do that with. 0:19:24.996 --> 0:19:29.436 Something Catherine plays or John plays. I'll just be this is. 0:19:29.396 --> 0:19:33.876 Cool, and sometimes it's sometimes it changes the song. Sometimes 0:19:33.916 --> 0:19:36.436 I'll go like that's the only good thing that keyboard 0:19:36.516 --> 0:19:38.436 thing Catherine did is the only good thing in the song. 0:19:38.876 --> 0:19:41.516 You know, I'll be like the keyboard you got, so 0:19:41.556 --> 0:19:44.276 we got the keyboard and the and the beat, and you. 0:19:44.236 --> 0:19:49.716 Know it's just you know, yeah, they're just you know, 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:50.836 they're like tools. 0:19:52.276 --> 0:19:54.556 What was the song on this album that underwent the 0:19:54.556 --> 0:19:59.436 biggest transformation once people got their parts back to you? 0:19:59.596 --> 0:20:04.796 I have no idea. I cannot remember. 0:20:06.836 --> 0:20:12.156 It's it's I think it's always It's like it's it 0:20:12.236 --> 0:20:14.196 goes on for so long and I'm always like working 0:20:14.236 --> 0:20:18.316 on things, and you know, they don't remember, you know, I'm. 0:20:18.196 --> 0:20:19.516 Sure maybe Spooky Action. 0:20:21.156 --> 0:20:24.516 Spooky Action went. Yeah, that went through a big transformation. Actually, 0:20:24.596 --> 0:20:31.796 that that one, that one definitely did. Yes, I'm glad 0:20:31.796 --> 0:20:32.596 you caught that one. 0:20:34.076 --> 0:20:35.036 I remember that. 0:20:35.036 --> 0:20:37.156 That That one felt like it was like it was 0:20:37.236 --> 0:20:42.556 hard to get it like it was a lot of 0:20:42.596 --> 0:20:45.756 things happening, but it was it was hard to to 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:50.436 make it smooth and and interesting. And sometimes you get 0:20:50.436 --> 0:20:52.716 to a point where you have too many ideas. At 0:20:52.716 --> 0:20:54.316 the end of an album, I feel like there's a 0:20:54.316 --> 0:20:54.996 lot of muting. 0:20:56.076 --> 0:21:01.316 You're taking things out. Yeah, do you do that more? Now? 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:05.516 This album felt a little area or a little less yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:21:05.516 --> 0:21:10.476 a little less heavy, complicated and some of your other records. 0:21:11.156 --> 0:21:13.836 Yeah, but but I think ironically, I think that kind 0:21:13.836 --> 0:21:16.516 of makes it a little more, a little more complicated, 0:21:16.556 --> 0:21:21.236 you know. I think it's uh, it's just less less noisy. Well, 0:21:21.236 --> 0:21:23.796 one thing I one thing I've thought about in the 0:21:23.836 --> 0:21:26.996 last few years, which might be the most obvious thing 0:21:27.116 --> 0:21:30.956 in the world, but I just learned it, or I 0:21:30.956 --> 0:21:32.876 don't know if it's something I can say I learned, 0:21:32.876 --> 0:21:35.036 but it's it's it's a theory I have, and it 0:21:35.116 --> 0:21:39.636 is that if something cannot be the loudest thing in the. 0:21:39.596 --> 0:21:41.356 Mix, it shouldn't be in there. 0:21:42.796 --> 0:21:46.516 Wow, like like because so many times through the years 0:21:46.556 --> 0:21:48.676 have been like, oh this part. 0:21:48.516 --> 0:21:52.436 Is cool, but oh it's not. It's too loud, you know, 0:21:52.556 --> 0:21:53.196 like pull. 0:21:53.036 --> 0:21:55.436 It down and you know, and you're burying things. And 0:21:55.676 --> 0:22:00.116 I just thought, no, if if it can't be the 0:22:00.156 --> 0:22:03.556 loudest thing, it shouldn't be there, you know, if if 0:22:03.636 --> 0:22:06.636 something if yeah, if something's going to bother you, if 0:22:06.636 --> 0:22:09.556 it's too loud, and it's to me it seems seemingly 0:22:09.596 --> 0:22:12.556 obvious now like, yeah, it probably shouldn't be in the mix, 0:22:13.156 --> 0:22:17.076 And that's helpful. To me, because when you listen to 0:22:17.116 --> 0:22:20.716 an album on different stereos, it always sounds different, or 0:22:20.796 --> 0:22:23.516 if you listen to like the album playing in the 0:22:23.556 --> 0:22:26.356 next room, it sounds different. So on this record, I 0:22:26.356 --> 0:22:28.836 feel like I've eliminated that because now I listen to 0:22:28.876 --> 0:22:30.716 it and I go, well, that sounds louder and that 0:22:30.796 --> 0:22:31.476 sounds quieter. 0:22:31.596 --> 0:22:32.316