Speaker 1: We're entering a stage now where people are buying bitcoin.
Speaker 1: They don't even know they're buying it. I don't even
Speaker 1: know that the underlying asset that's driving the performance is bitcoin.
Speaker 1: That creates a levering within the system itself that is
Speaker 1: kind of invisible.
Speaker 2: You recently had tweeted that there's a few new public
Speaker 2: companies announcing bitcoin treasuries every week.
Speaker 3: Soon it'll be every day.
Speaker 2: It's but how you think about like the public companies
Speaker 2: as a bitcoin treasury versus like a strategy type company.
Speaker 1: You meet the buyer where they are, and you sell
Speaker 1: them bitcoin in whatever form or fashion they need to
Speaker 1: be able to buy. Every product that sailor's spinning out
Speaker 1: could be rebuilt and repackaged for every domestic capital market
Speaker 1: wherever there's captured liquidity. What these products are going to
Speaker 1: have buyers? When I think about what a bitcoin treasury
Speaker 1: company is, in my mind, is the new form of
Speaker 1: a bitcoin exchange. Because you're creating a vehicle for people
Speaker 1: to get exposure to bitcoin.
Speaker 2: What is one thing that you could say tell the
Speaker 2: world why bitcoin matters not as a currency, but as
Speaker 2: a revolution. You've predicted that bitcoin could hit a million
Speaker 2: dollars during Trump's presidency, and.
Speaker 3: That sounds insane for most people.
Speaker 2: So what would you say that you see about bitcoin
Speaker 2: that most people are missing.
Speaker 1: Well, you know the million dollar price tag comes because
Speaker 1: that's the if you comp against another asset, it's gold.
Speaker 1: So you know, bitcoin is digital gold. Gold is the
Speaker 1: is the comp and to be at gold bitcoin period
Speaker 1: is a million dollars a bitcoin. I mean, gold's had
Speaker 1: a nice runs. It started I think at at six
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars a bitcoin, but after this
Speaker 1: gold run, now it's a million of bitcoin. You know.
Speaker 1: I think bitcoin's better than gold in every possible from
Speaker 1: every possible metric. I mean, it's more scarce, it's more divisible,
Speaker 1: it can be transported over the internet, it has you know,
Speaker 1: no security costs. You know, it's better in every way,
Speaker 1: and so it should be like, I think a million
Speaker 1: dollars is the floor value of bitcoin when you think
Speaker 1: about it purely from a fundamental perspective, and you know,
Speaker 1: adding the element of I think it can happen in
Speaker 1: the next four years. You know, I could very easily
Speaker 1: see it not happening the next four years. So I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that's like the the most likely outcome. But
Speaker 1: you know, I see a series of factors that have
Speaker 1: built up that have created like a you know, a
Speaker 1: slow motion avalanche that's happening. And I think that as
Speaker 1: the year goes on, this is going to pick up
Speaker 1: speed and you know where it stops. You know, I
Speaker 1: think there's enough buyers in the market, and enough buyers
Speaker 1: that are watching the market that have deep enough liquidity
Speaker 1: and size that they could take this thing all the
Speaker 1: way to a million bucks. And and you know, when
Speaker 1: you start looking at sovereign spying bitcoin, which is happening
Speaker 1: already right now, and you throw in, okay, a couple
Speaker 1: of g twenty countries doing it, the price can just
Speaker 1: can just run really really quickly. And so I think
Speaker 1: it is it is very much within the possibility that
Speaker 1: with the next four years we see gold bitcoin parody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree at Bitcoin Meana in December, I gave
Speaker 2: the closing keynote there and broke down where I think
Speaker 2: it's in twenty thirty, twenty forty, and twenty fifty, using
Speaker 2: sort of basically inflation debasement and sort of math on
Speaker 2: how it takes from gold and other assets. And so
Speaker 2: certainly there's an easy, easy case, a very conservative case
Speaker 2: in my opinion, that we get there.
Speaker 3: And I saw, I'm sure you did.
Speaker 2: Kathy wood Arc put out maybe now two point five
Speaker 2: million in play for twenty thirty, so I don't know
Speaker 2: if you saw that was a couple of days ago,
Speaker 2: a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm still I'm still the old guard
Speaker 1: that believes in like the four year cycle, and I
Speaker 1: see the four year cycle changing, so I'm I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that it's an exact four years, but like, I
Speaker 1: still believe in the cycles of bitcoin, you know, the
Speaker 1: the you know, I feel like you need the bear
Speaker 1: markets with the bull markets. There's that there's a relationship
Speaker 1: between the two, and you don't want to just have
Speaker 1: like too long of a period where nothing like kind
Speaker 1: of let's say it's like a fire cleaning out like
Speaker 1: brush from a forest. Do you want that? Yeah, But
Speaker 1: I definitely see this cycle lasting longer. I think the
Speaker 1: buyers that are coming in are much more sophisticated. I
Speaker 1: think that they deploy capital in a different way than
Speaker 1: than what how retail deploys it. And I think that like, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think if we get to a million bucks, there's
Speaker 1: no reason we can't go well beyond a million bucks. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The bigger question to me is kind of like, what's
Speaker 1: the threshold that we cross where bitcoin becomes too big
Speaker 1: to fail? Where you know, a crash of bitcoin actually
Speaker 1: would result in a financial systemic financial issue for the
Speaker 1: for the global markets, and at that point in time,
Speaker 1: then there's only one direction for bitcoin to go, Like,
Speaker 1: once we become too big to fail, there's only up
Speaker 1: into the right. And so I feel like we're we
Speaker 1: approach that point. You know, at a million bucks, you're
Speaker 1: talking about bitcoin being worth basically us GDP, So you know,
Speaker 1: at two million bucks you can't just lose a us
Speaker 1: GDP and and the global economy be okay. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's where you sort of think that level
Speaker 2: is at a at a million bucks twenty one train
Speaker 2: market cap is sort of that escape velocity too big
Speaker 2: to fail sort of moment or.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think it could be low more
Speaker 1: than that. I think it could be lower than that,
Speaker 1: But you know, at that, at that level or somewhere
Speaker 1: near that, it starts to get damn close. I mean
Speaker 1: you're talking I think like commercial real estate is like
Speaker 1: thirty trillion. So yeah, twenty one trillion dollar dollar mark
Speaker 1: cap is pretty pretty serious asset.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it also depends on how much Wall Street
Speaker 2: is allocated to it, maybe how levered up they are
Speaker 2: against it, because you know, we've seen maybe just recently
Speaker 2: in the last couple of weeks where sort of some
Speaker 2: of these hedge funds we're sort of leaning on the
Speaker 2: Trumpe administration like hey, like you got to help us
Speaker 2: out here. We're getting like unwound. And so maybe it's
Speaker 2: not even a trillion, Maybe it's just some of the
Speaker 2: black rock et cetera. They are setting up some of
Speaker 2: these funds. Maybe it gets so over levered.
Speaker 1: But and even if it's not the funds that get levered,
Speaker 1: I mean, we're entering a stage now where people are
Speaker 1: buying bitcoin they don't even know they're buying it, which
Speaker 1: is a very interesting phenomenon. I think it's it's exciting,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a you know, depressingly like probably
Speaker 1: how this plays out because most people just don't care,
Speaker 1: but you know, people are. You know, if you own
Speaker 1: have a retirement account and your your retirement account is
Speaker 1: buying you know, the biggest indexes in the world let's
Speaker 1: say it's buying Nasdaq one hundred. Now you are a
Speaker 1: shareholder of micro Strategy without even without even knowing, and
Speaker 1: you know, my micro strategy is using you know, your
Speaker 1: your shareholder equity to buy bitcoin, so you have exposure,
Speaker 1: and so you're gonna get a statement when micro Strategy
Speaker 1: hundred x's you're gonna get a statement. It's like, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: you're my IRA is performing really well, like my pension
Speaker 1: fund is booming, and so I'm gonna go out. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna spend more money. I might go get a beach house,
Speaker 1: I might go get a mortgage. You know, I I
Speaker 1: do change my behavior because I'm looking at how well
Speaker 1: I'm performing. I don't even know that the underlying asset
Speaker 1: that's driving the performance is bitcoin. Yeah, and so that's
Speaker 1: that creates a levering within the system itself that is
Speaker 1: kind of invisible.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And we've seen Larry Fink from Black Rocks say that
Speaker 2: they're gonna start recommending to like all their advisor networks
Speaker 2: to start allocating to it. So then all those people
Speaker 2: that use advisors will be allocated into it as well,
Speaker 2: and they won't even know it. We're sort of at
Speaker 2: that point in that game theory competitive land where the
Speaker 2: advisors are going to have to do that if they
Speaker 2: want to remain competitive.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and and and I think they've already rolled
Speaker 1: it out in their in their modern portfolio product. I
Speaker 1: mean the uh yeah, I mean I I agree. Like
Speaker 1: I feel like the the the things that need to
Speaker 1: happen to make this outcome occur have already happened. Like
Speaker 1: what now is just like the gravitational momentum of this
Speaker 1: avalanche building as it goes down the mountain. But like
Speaker 1: the I feel like it, there's there's no doubt that
Speaker 1: it makes it to the bottom of the mountain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, so.
Speaker 2: Tell me, tell me let's go back to the four
Speaker 2: year cycle, because that's something that gets talked about quite often.
Speaker 2: I remember last cycle when sailors saying all your models
Speaker 2: were broken, and then of course then.
Speaker 3: The cycle came and hit.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: But I think to the point that you're making with
Speaker 2: all the institutional adoptions, specifically a lot of the the
Speaker 2: ETFs and whatnot, a lot of that bitcoin goes into
Speaker 2: deep dark cold storage, right, and they're not really cyclical buyers.
Speaker 2: Is that kind of what you're thinking, I mean, do
Speaker 2: you do you think do you think the volatility just
Speaker 2: dampens down or maybe the four year cycle sort of
Speaker 2: ends and we started to just kind of ramp right
Speaker 2: through it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question, and I don't know, like
Speaker 1: and I and I think it's definitely interesting that we
Speaker 1: are in you know, uh, you know, it's nice when
Speaker 1: our when our preconceived notions of bitcoin are challenged. And
Speaker 1: so we had a lot of cycles that looked exactly
Speaker 1: like each other, and you start getting kind of too
Speaker 1: locked into a certain perspective and now like, okay, this
Speaker 1: the cycle is playing out differently, without a doubt, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of just the the the buyers
Speaker 1: are different. You know, I think there's two phenomenon that
Speaker 1: are happening. One is, you know, if you're going to
Speaker 1: go buy unless you're sailor if you're going to go
Speaker 1: buy a few billion dollars a bitcoin or one hundred
Speaker 1: billion dollars a bitcoin, you're going to implement an acquisition
Speaker 1: program that takes place over time, and you're going to
Speaker 1: be basically dcing effectively at a really big level over
Speaker 1: a long period of time. And so I think like
Speaker 1: that that makes liquidity flow into the system in a
Speaker 1: in a much more progrect like slow and intentional way
Speaker 1: rather than just like you're yoloing in two. I think
Speaker 1: like there's a bigger and bigger amount of of bitcoin
Speaker 1: that is being owned by UH indexes, mutual funds, you know,
Speaker 1: general strategies that are market cap weighted, and they're going
Speaker 1: to be rebalancing their portfolios regularly. And so you're going
Speaker 1: to have a rebalancing effect as you see outperformance from
Speaker 1: from bitcoin both two bitcoin's benefit and also against bitcoin
Speaker 1: as is, people rotate out. And so I think that
Speaker 1: that rebalancing is going to have a a a healthy
Speaker 1: kind of moderating effect in terms of the rate of change.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know.
Speaker 1: In terms of like does the volatility come down or not.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, like, you know, I see so
Speaker 1: many products being created that are these like income based
Speaker 1: products where effectively, like you're shorting volatility and that like
Speaker 1: that where the income is being drived from and you know,
Speaker 1: you know, running a covered call strategy or something like that,
Speaker 1: and and and like uh that that and of itself
Speaker 1: will dampen volatility until it doesn't and then it'll amplify volatility.
Speaker 3: Like you know, something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's like uh uh exactly, you're just
Speaker 1: like moving the the the tail fat tail events like
Speaker 1: further out into the tail, but they still happen. So
Speaker 1: I don't know if we're really like, uh, reducing volatility
Speaker 1: over the long term, or if we're just like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, uh trading less volatility today for more volatility tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would probably say less volatility, right because as
Speaker 2: the ASCID gets bigger, a one trillion dollar asset is
Speaker 2: much harder to move than five hundred and a half
Speaker 2: half a trillion, and and and so forth. And so
Speaker 2: then you mentioned some of these big like allocators who
Speaker 2: are like rebalancing, so they're selling at the top rebalancing.
Speaker 3: Which then tampers the upside. But then but then they're buying,
Speaker 3: but then they're.
Speaker 2: Buying through the dip, which then keeps the you know,
Speaker 2: the bottom from falling out, And so that volatility just
Speaker 2: starts shrinking probably over time.
Speaker 1: No I I and I agree with that, But you know,
Speaker 1: what you also have is this phenomenon of of bitcoin,
Speaker 1: bitcoin securitization and and bitcoin backed you know, companies effectively
Speaker 1: buying bitcoin and not selling it, right, and and you know,
Speaker 1: if you look at that category, it's it's dominated by
Speaker 1: by micro strategy. But if you look at that category,
Speaker 1: it's like seven hundred and fifty thousand bitcoins or something
Speaker 1: like that are owned by bitcoin treasury companies. You know,
Speaker 1: like project that number forward. Like if you if you
Speaker 1: increase the number of bitcoin treasury companies and you increase
Speaker 1: their time in market, and you increase let's say, their
Speaker 1: ability to uh find additional financing or dilution events because
Speaker 1: the price of bitcoin is going up and that's like
Speaker 1: driving liquidity into these these instruments, then they're going to
Speaker 1: be able to continue to grow an ever increasing rate
Speaker 1: the amount of bitcoin held by those types of vehicles.
Speaker 1: And so you know, if seven hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 1: bitcoins becomes three million bitcoins or four million bitcoins, like
Speaker 1: it's going to cause a massive supply shock, and it's like, well,
Speaker 1: how do you get the bitcoin out of those companies
Speaker 1: once it goes in? And so ultimately, like if if
Speaker 1: the sailors of the world can accumulate too much bitcoin,
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter if people are rebalancing or not.
Speaker 1: There's there's just going to be a massive squeeze on
Speaker 1: the market, and and until those those businesses, until Sailors
Speaker 1: will sell some bitcoin like it, you know, there's no
Speaker 1: solution for it. I mean it's absolute scarce to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And typically you think about price elasticity and there's
Speaker 2: always enough you know, whatever asset to go around at
Speaker 2: the right price. But someone like Sailor probably at no
Speaker 2: price he's selling, and so maybe some of that price
Speaker 2: elasticity doesn't actually work out in some of these some
Speaker 2: of these hands.
Speaker 3: I'm curious how you think about it.
Speaker 2: You recently had tweeted that you there's a few new
Speaker 2: public companies announcing bitcoin treasuries every week.
Speaker 3: Soon it'll be every.
Speaker 2: Day a thousand cash flowing and capital raising public equities
Speaker 2: listed in every market, including in every index, repackaging and
Speaker 2: every wrapper, et cetera, et cetera, every single day. I'm
Speaker 2: curious how you think about And I know Bitcoin magazine
Speaker 2: Pro now has like a tracker where you're tracking like publicly.
Speaker 3: Traded companies that have a bitcoin treasury.
Speaker 2: But how you think about like the public companies, is
Speaker 2: the bitcoin treasury versus like a strategy type company.
Speaker 3: Because the way I think about it is like if
Speaker 3: you're just like putting part of my treasury on bitcoin.
Speaker 2: So what like Apple sitting on billions of dollars, Like,
Speaker 2: what do they have that billions of dollars in?
Speaker 3: Do I really care?
Speaker 2: Does it really affect what their market cap is? And
Speaker 2: so if they decide to put some of that into bitcoin,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's great for bitcoin in a sense where
Speaker 2: it's you know, buying it up, But does it really
Speaker 2: affect Apple? So you know, obviously micro strategy is creating
Speaker 2: financial products out of that, but if Apple does, does
Speaker 2: it really And I guess so that's what I'm thinking
Speaker 2: when it's just a treasury company or is it like
Speaker 2: a treasury strategy for the stock?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think you know, what sailor is doing
Speaker 1: is monetizing volatility, and so you want max volatility, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think for somebody like Apple, where they
Speaker 1: have an underlying business that has a massive enterprise value,
Speaker 1: that's going to mute the volatility of the stock because
Speaker 1: the business is going to be disconnected from the performance
Speaker 1: of the balance sheet. And so you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think it would work as well for a company like Apple,
Speaker 1: But you know, at the end of the day, you know,
Speaker 1: in the in the uh long term, view of the
Speaker 1: terminal value of bitcoin. Bitcoin as the reserve asset of
Speaker 1: the world. One bitcoin is you know, one twenty one
Speaker 1: millionth of of all the world of all. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's you know, like you know, I think apples it
Speaker 1: would be very wise to lock down a couple of
Speaker 1: percentage points of the supply, you know, with their big
Speaker 1: with their bitcoin, But I don't I don't think it
Speaker 1: will have the same effect as it does for for Sailor.
Speaker 1: Sailor is uh, I mean, Sailor is a genius, and
Speaker 1: I mean I'm really interested in seeing like what instruments
Speaker 1: he creates next, and you know, strike and strife. I
Speaker 1: mean I was looking up what other you know, str uh,
Speaker 1: you know, four letter acronyms that he can create, and
Speaker 1: there's quite a few actually, so I already I can
Speaker 1: already predict like a couple that might be coming.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I think you know what he's doing is
Speaker 1: is really introducing new levers to create volatility and to
Speaker 1: tap different different parts of his his cap stack with
Speaker 1: different types of buyers. And like, I think the big
Speaker 1: picture thing that's at Sailor has taught me, which is
Speaker 1: you know, so obvious in retrospect is like like you
Speaker 1: meet the buyer where they are and you sell them
Speaker 1: Bitcoin and whatever form or fashion they need to be able.
Speaker 3: To buy boom, which is like, yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, that's like sales one on one, like you know,
Speaker 1: like sales one on one. So he's really pioneered this,
Speaker 1: and I think he this has so many layers to it.
Speaker 1: He can go so much deeper, and he's really pioneering
Speaker 1: the way. The way I'm approaching these things is much
Speaker 1: more sixty IQ. I'm you know, I don't have the
Speaker 1: strategist mind of Sailor or the brilliance of Sailors. So
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just taking the easiest structures to replicate,
Speaker 1: and I'm spreading them horizontally into other markets rather than
Speaker 1: doing you know, basically scaling vertically into other instruments. And
Speaker 1: so you know, I think like this there's just massive
Speaker 1: expansion of this of this terrain, Like you know, strife
Speaker 1: and strike could be recreated for every other international market
Speaker 1: as well, Like every product that Sailor's spinning out could
Speaker 1: be rebuilt and repackaged for every domestic capital market wherever
Speaker 1: there's captured liquidity. What these products are going to have buyers.
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's what I was trying to understand.
Speaker 2: So when you say, you know, when you talk about
Speaker 2: all these public companies and announcing bitcoin treasury programs, it's
Speaker 2: not the apples of the world that have a bunch
Speaker 2: of big treasury and they're allocating some to bitcoin. It's
Speaker 2: other companies that are actually bringing some bitcoin products to market,
Speaker 2: but not maybe in so much in the US markets
Speaker 2: because maybe a lot of that's already sort of taken.
Speaker 2: But how do we launch that in Japan or India
Speaker 2: or Brazil or something like that.
Speaker 3: Is that kind of maybe more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was really combining the two. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I see both of them as complimentary to each other,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think they are fundamentally different. You know,
Speaker 1: I think that there is room, though in the US,
Speaker 1: for there to be multiple micro strategies. I think even
Speaker 1: Sailor says, you know, there's there's ten companies that are
Speaker 1: going to be trillion dollar companies, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: one hundred companies that are going to be one hundred
Speaker 1: billion dollar companies, and there's a thousand that are going
Speaker 1: to be ten billion, and you know, so on and
Speaker 1: so forth. And you know, when I look at when
Speaker 1: I think about what a bitcoin treasury company is, in
Speaker 1: my mind, it's it's the it's the new form of
Speaker 1: a of a of a bitcoin exchange, you know, like
Speaker 1: that's effectively what you're what you're doing, is you're creating
Speaker 1: a vehicle for people to get exposure to bitcoin. And
Speaker 1: rather than having a connect your bank account and go
Speaker 1: through KYC and you know, blah blah blah blah blah
Speaker 1: fund your account, instead like you just take a brokerage
Speaker 1: account and you go buy this instrument and boom, now
Speaker 1: you have exposure to bitcoin. And you know, so, like
Speaker 1: how many bitcoin exchanges can the United States support?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: More than one?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: You know, like every one of these businesses they have
Speaker 1: their own network to go to, their own customer base,
Speaker 1: their own way to market the product that they're Like,
Speaker 1: each of these is going to have their incremental differences,
Speaker 1: and so I think there's space for many players to compete,
Speaker 1: and I think competition is really healthy and all of
Speaker 1: them win together by you know, any of them succeeding.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, that's the good thing about wealth. It's not
Speaker 3: a zero some game. Right.
Speaker 2: The more wealth that's created, the more wealth we have,
Speaker 2: And I guess if you think about sort of like
Speaker 2: sailor already creating three different products off of it, I mean,
Speaker 2: then you just extrapolate that. I mean, there's potentially infinite
Speaker 2: amount of products that could be created with more creative.
Speaker 3: Correct kind of like that correct.
Speaker 1: It's like I mean, it's it's it's a new asset class,
Speaker 1: and it's like it will balloon in size, and every
Speaker 1: new innovative product that's created, you're gonna have one hundred
Speaker 1: investment bankers figuring out how to clone the product and
Speaker 1: repackage it and sell it into different market Yeah. And
Speaker 1: so like this is gonna be a gold rush of
Speaker 1: just securitization of new instruments and and and accessing new markets.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One thing I took away when I left the Abu
Speaker 2: Dhabi event Bitcoin Mina, was like Bitcoin's coming for every
Speaker 2: area of finance, just completely every area of finance. And
Speaker 2: I used to be in creative financing. I had my
Speaker 2: finance learner's license here in California and we did like
Speaker 2: invoice factoring and per sort of financing and first trusteed,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And all of a sudden, my creative financing
Speaker 2: mind started thinking about all these different financial products, lending
Speaker 2: products mostly that bitcoin can slip into, and I know
Speaker 2: there's several that are already underway and some I'm working
Speaker 2: on as well. And so I mean it's really infinite,
Speaker 2: right as far as the mind can imagine these things,
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, we just have more idea, more and
Speaker 2: more more ways.
Speaker 1: We're cannibalizing the capital markets and we we are, we are.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is how bigcoin takes over. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is the thing, like, this is how it takes over.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's not that we overnight shut down
Speaker 1: and cast out the institutions that rule the world today.
Speaker 1: It's that we force the institutions to engage in this
Speaker 1: new economy, this new market. And if they don't, then
Speaker 1: then then we will and it'll be it'll be forced
Speaker 1: upon them. And so you know, it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's very interesting to watch. It's very interesting to watch.
Speaker 1: It's exciting.
Speaker 3: Oh it's super exciting. What a time to be alive.
Speaker 2: And we're we're literally alive for history you made, you know,
Speaker 2: And as someone who makes a lot of content, and
Speaker 2: I love to reference history because it's so insightful for us.
Speaker 2: And there's these big dates, the nineteen forty four Breton
Speaker 2: Woods Agreement, you know, nineteen thirteen and nineteen forty four
Speaker 2: Applausa cord in nineteen eighty five, seventy one mix and
Speaker 2: off the gold stands like these key dates, and I
Speaker 2: feel like we're like in one of those dates right now, right, Yeah, No.
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like the the ultimate story that's
Speaker 1: playing out here is like have you seen this this
Speaker 1: I'm blanking on the guy's name, Luke, Luke Grohman. I
Speaker 1: think it's Luke Groman, Yeah, Luca and the Triffan's Dilimma.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a meme that's just like gaining
Speaker 1: mind share. And you know, I have yet to hear
Speaker 1: someone from the let's say, prevailing geopolitical order explained to
Speaker 1: me like like the solution to that dilemma. And you know,
Speaker 1: really the in state of it is like we need
Speaker 1: the dollar to free float against a neutral asset, Like
Speaker 1: that's that's the end state of that. And so that's
Speaker 1: how we solve this this trade deficit issue. That's how
Speaker 1: we solve for you know, the industrialization of our economy,
Speaker 1: that's how we solve the megabig problems that have to
Speaker 1: get resolved. And you know, when we get to that state,
Speaker 1: then it's like okay. Now bitcoin is the most widely accepted,
Speaker 1: most liquid instrument in the world, and it is the
Speaker 1: neutral asset that every currency will float against. And like now,
Speaker 1: bitcoin underpins the entire global financial and monetary system.
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Speaker 1: I can tell you one with certainty that the Triven's
Speaker 1: dilemma and that that worldview on on Basically, the burden
Speaker 1: of carrying dollar reserve status is something that our military
Speaker 1: industrial complex, our defense complex is becoming ever more aware of.
Speaker 1: And you know, like at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: like the United States military is like, you know, the
Speaker 1: hollowing out of America's industrial base directly affects their ability
Speaker 1: to fight wars and defend the country. And like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, like the institutions I guess that in the
Speaker 1: United States that can actually push for this kind of
Speaker 1: change to occur are acutely aware of what's going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, for sure the military understands the implications
Speaker 2: of all this. I want to take it to the
Speaker 2: next level here. So sort of in this fifty year
Speaker 2: cycle thesis that I use that I use in talks,
Speaker 2: and I talk about how there's these different stages. So
Speaker 2: each fifty year cycle throughout the last three hundred years,
Speaker 2: financial revolutions and financial capitals sort of follow this predictable pattern.
Speaker 2: And stage one is sort of like this eruption and
Speaker 2: that sort of represents like retail, which was sort of
Speaker 2: like this explosion of bitcoin and alt coins. And then
Speaker 2: phase two goes into what's called the frenzy phase, which
Speaker 2: is more sovereign institutions and sovereigns. And so we just
Speaker 2: talked about the institutions and you're, you know, you're saying
Speaker 2: thousands of public companies will be coming in with these
Speaker 2: bitcoin treasury plays.
Speaker 3: But I want to jump to the sovereign level.
Speaker 2: And first I want to hear your story, because from
Speaker 2: the world looking from the outside in, like you seem
Speaker 2: to be the one that went and got Trump and
Speaker 2: like pulled him into the entire market, got to speak
Speaker 2: at the conference, all of that right around the time
Speaker 2: he was getting his ear shot off and all those
Speaker 2: other things, like give us a story on that.
Speaker 1: Oh man, it's a long and it's the longest.
Speaker 3: Even start, Like where did it even start?
Speaker 1: It started, uh in Puerto Rico late night on like
Speaker 1: a Saturday night, sitting around shooting the shit with a
Speaker 1: friend of mine, Tracy, and a couple of our other friends.
Speaker 1: And it started with like, you know, if we could
Speaker 1: just get in front of Trump, like we could pitch
Speaker 1: Trump on bitcoin and get him to like bitcoin. We
Speaker 1: can get him into bitcoin. And then my friend Tracy
Speaker 1: is like, well, I know someone who might be able
Speaker 1: to like get us infront of them, and they're like
Speaker 1: no way, and she's like, yeah, like my sister's godfather
Speaker 1: is Paul Manafort, and Paul Manafort was the campaign chair
Speaker 1: for Trump in the last election and in the twenty
Speaker 1: sixteen election. Maybe he can help us. And so that's
Speaker 1: how it started. And then like it started with you know,
Speaker 1: a phone call to get past Paul's like sniff test,
Speaker 1: and then you know, it was very clear that that
Speaker 1: the Trump team and Trump orbit, you know, had not
Speaker 1: dived deeply into this issue, like they had a service
Speaker 1: level understanding, which is very understandable, but like it's just
Speaker 1: like they hadn't dived into the into detail. And so
Speaker 1: then began like began like a back and forth of
Speaker 1: like like, you know, these are all the reasons why
Speaker 1: it won't work or we can't like you know, why
Speaker 1: we're not doing it now or whatever, and then us
Speaker 1: coming back with like an answer to each one of
Speaker 1: those issues and why it's actually not an issue or
Speaker 1: et cetera. And so like back and forth, back and forth,
Speaker 1: back and forth. Every couple of days were like flipping
Speaker 1: something new to them, and then eventually it was like okay, well,
Speaker 1: so if this could work, what would it what would
Speaker 1: it look like? And so, uh, we assembled like a
Speaker 1: brain trust of people from the industry. This is an
Speaker 1: effort that to actually a lot of people were involved in,
Speaker 1: but we assembled it like a brain trust and we
Speaker 1: kind of tried to like brainstorm ideas of what's like
Speaker 1: an America First agenda and platform that like bitcoin is
Speaker 1: is coherent with and like and authentic to and so
Speaker 1: like then we went back with like, Okay, these are
Speaker 1: all these different ideas of things that we think like
Speaker 1: could work with your platform and and you know that
Speaker 1: the president would like that Trump would like and they
Speaker 1: liked it, and and it you know, actually bitcoin is
Speaker 1: does fit really well within the America First political platform.
Speaker 1: And so you know, I think Trump energy independence really
Speaker 1: resonated with Trump and and energy abundance. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: Trump was the victim of you know, the political politicization
Speaker 1: politicis I can't say that word politicization of our financial
Speaker 1: system and banking system, and so you know, he was
Speaker 1: a victim of money being sees, bank accounts being shut
Speaker 1: and so I think it really resonated with him to
Speaker 1: that that's wrong, that that there needs to be people
Speaker 1: need to have tools to protect themselves from a captured
Speaker 1: financial institutions. And you know, I like, as we kind
Speaker 1: of developed this platform, then like only when it got
Speaker 1: to like the really well developed the Trump way in
Speaker 1: and I think like the key point for him was
Speaker 1: like he came back with the question, is like all right,
Speaker 1: like this is all great, but you know, I like
Speaker 1: the dollar. I'm a fan of the US dollar, and
Speaker 1: every bitcoinner I know tells me that Bitcoin's going to
Speaker 1: destroy the dollar, like like what am I missing here?
Speaker 1: And so our response to that was, you know, the
Speaker 1: United States, building Fort Knox and storing the world's gold
Speaker 1: in the United States did not undermine the power of
Speaker 1: the US dollar. If anything, it enshrined the power and
Speaker 1: value of the US dollar and made the dollar what
Speaker 1: it is today, the reserve currency of the world. And
Speaker 1: that if you want the dollar to remain the reserve
Speaker 1: currency of the world, then we have to have a
Speaker 1: digital Fort Knox, and we need to store the digital gold.
Speaker 1: And that's how we keep the dollar relevant for hundreds
Speaker 1: of years to come. And like then it was like okay,
Speaker 1: I'm interested, and let's meet. And so we went up
Speaker 1: to Trump Tower and and made the case in person.
Speaker 1: And you know, the president is is is a brilliant guy.
Speaker 1: He really is an extraordinary person. And you know, he
Speaker 1: has an intuitive sense of opportunity. I mean, he's he's
Speaker 1: he's an entrepreneur, and you know, he he has many
Speaker 1: people around him that like bitcoin. His his kids like bitcoin.
Speaker 1: You know, there's lots of libertarians that like bitcoin, that
Speaker 1: are that are in some of those circles, and so
Speaker 1: you know, he he saw this as a vehicle where
Speaker 1: like bitcoin is like the new dal Jones of the
Speaker 1: youngest generation of the young people, and so like to
Speaker 1: integrate this into his platform was also to integrate and
Speaker 1: bring along, you know, the youth in his platform. And
Speaker 1: then as he went out into the market and started
Speaker 1: talking about bitcoin, and he said he had a campaign
Speaker 1: rally where he talked about like we want one hundred
Speaker 1: percent of the bitcoin made in America. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: like like the reaction that he got, he picks up
Speaker 1: on that reaction. And so when he's talking to a
Speaker 1: bunch of people and in the course of a day,
Speaker 1: a lot of them mentioned, hey, I saw what you
Speaker 1: said about bitcoin or crypto, or like my kid told
Speaker 1: me about what you said. YadA, YadA. He has an
Speaker 1: intuitive sense of like picking up on that and like
Speaker 1: doubling down on it. And so it was a very
Speaker 1: interesting process of seeing him like this, this like give
Speaker 1: and take process of him like taking a step forward
Speaker 1: and then the market reacting in a positive way and
Speaker 1: then him kind of taking another step forward. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it was it was really quite like quite quite the
Speaker 1: roller coast. I mean, there's way more detail of things
Speaker 1: that happened along the way I can go into, but
Speaker 1: ultimately it culminated with him giving a speech at Nashville,
Speaker 1: and uh, that speech was a very i mean a
Speaker 1: true a historic historic speech and uh, you know, from
Speaker 1: like from when he gave that speech, he left the
Speaker 1: conference and he like he walked into the conference and
Speaker 1: it was very much like nervous of how the crowd
Speaker 1: would respond to him. He had just done the Libertarian convention,
Speaker 1: which was not a nice audience at all, and you
Speaker 1: know there was people doing and stuff classic libertarians. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but like he was he was a little bit you know,
Speaker 1: had some anxiety. And then when he got the reaction
Speaker 1: that he got he left, he was like, dude, these
Speaker 1: people love me. I love this. I love you know,
Speaker 1: like this is like, you know, I've been on this
Speaker 1: and so you know, it's been his words a love
Speaker 1: fest ever since. And you know, I think in terms
Speaker 1: of like what he's delivered as president in his first
Speaker 1: hundred days, which I think just happened maybe today or
Speaker 1: this week, he's delivered on almost everything he said he
Speaker 1: would deliver on. Like there's a few things that are
Speaker 1: still in flight and process, but you know, everything from
Speaker 1: you know Sabe uh, freeing Ross Olbrigg, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: ending the broker rules that the IRS put in place.
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, firing Gensler.
Speaker 1: I Gary Ginsler. He took care of that one before
Speaker 1: he even got into into office, you know, putting in
Speaker 1: place a bitcoin friendly cabinet, uh, completely changing the SEC's attitude,
Speaker 1: rolling back the litigation against all of the American bitcoin firms,
Speaker 1: signing into signing an executive order to establish a strategic
Speaker 1: bitcoin reserve. I mean, like, dude, like just one of
Speaker 1: these would have been incredible, and he's He's delivered, and
Speaker 1: so you know, I I at this point in time,
Speaker 1: I feel a deep, an immense amount of respect and
Speaker 1: gratitude for what he's done. And you know now I
Speaker 1: feel like, uh, regardless of how terrorist worked out good
Speaker 1: or bad whatever. I'm writer died Trump because he's delivered
Speaker 1: for us and and you know, he delivered for Ross,
Speaker 1: and I like a lot of people were like, he's
Speaker 1: not deliver for Roster. There's no ways going to do
Speaker 1: it once he gets elected, you know. And then every
Speaker 1: hour that take by when he was elected, because he
Speaker 1: said he'd do a day one, people are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been three hours, he hasn't been out. And then
Speaker 1: first first twenty six hours he got it done. So
Speaker 1: really it was a lot of work, but it was
Speaker 1: an incredible thing to be a part of, and it
Speaker 1: was worth every dollar and every ounce of sweat.
Speaker 3: Amazing story. Thanks for telling us that.
Speaker 2: I love how you talked about It's what you said earlier,
Speaker 2: like meeting people where they are, So you sort of
Speaker 2: understood what was important to Trump and then you fed
Speaker 2: him those things along the way and let him sort
Speaker 2: of discover and take more. And one thing I get
Speaker 2: asked all the time, and I'm sure you've heard ten
Speaker 2: thousand times or more ten million times, is like, you know,
Speaker 2: how do we orange fill people? And it's like, well,
Speaker 2: it's that you find out where they are. What's the
Speaker 2: one thing that they're concerned with, and then how do
Speaker 2: we match that one benefit and then let them take
Speaker 2: on more.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I mean that's you know, it's not
Speaker 1: that complicated. People make it so much more complicated than that.
Speaker 1: It's like you don't have to like fit into like
Speaker 1: an army uniform and put on like an orange suit
Speaker 1: and go out there and like believe in all the doctrine.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, what are the things that matter
Speaker 1: to you, What are the problems that you have in
Speaker 1: your life? How does bitcoin affect those things? Why is
Speaker 1: it better for you if the bitcoin vision plays out?
Speaker 1: That's how you bring people along.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious what you think. I mean, I agree
Speaker 2: and love all that stuff, But I'm curious because there's
Speaker 2: plenty of people that have been saying online on Twitter
Speaker 2: on x you know, oh yeah, sucking up to the
Speaker 2: central banks to buy your coin. Oh yeah, the government
Speaker 2: to buy your coin kind of thing, and that someone
Speaker 2: like you who's been in it, you know since the
Speaker 2: early early early days, the early stipherpunk days. I mean,
Speaker 2: how's your view on that.
Speaker 1: So we're not sucking up to anyone, like we're we're
Speaker 1: not begging them for the position that we have, Like
Speaker 1: we've taken the position that we have through sheer will
Speaker 1: and entrepreneurship and building bitcoin into an asset that got
Speaker 1: so big that they're they have to reckon with us.
Speaker 1: You know, So like this is not a ah. Bitcoin
Speaker 1: has not changed one ounce. The technology has not changed
Speaker 1: one line of code, has not changed since before Trump
Speaker 1: liked bitcoin to after Trump liked bitcoin. And you know,
Speaker 1: like the the the inevitability of bitcoin is such that
Speaker 1: you know, eventually every government on the planet is gonna
Speaker 1: have to hold bitcoin, every central bank on the plane
Speaker 1: is gonna have to hold bitcoin, Every financial institution is
Speaker 1: gonna have to support bitcoin, and if they don't, they're
Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna go bye bye. So like that's that's
Speaker 1: that's not us losing and succumbing to the system. That's
Speaker 1: us eating the system and the system having to become
Speaker 1: part of part of our system. So you know, I, I,
Speaker 1: you know, I understand that it's weird to be used
Speaker 1: to occupying Wall Street and now you know, instead of
Speaker 1: occupying Wall Street in front of the building, we're occupying
Speaker 1: you know, the building. Yeah, but like this is the
Speaker 1: process of us eating the world and eventually bitcoiners are
Speaker 1: going to become the people in the institutions that have
Speaker 1: to build the society we want to see. We can't
Speaker 1: just complain about the society as it is. We actually
Speaker 1: have to go and create the alternative system. And like
Speaker 1: that's what we're doing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was always going to be that way.
Speaker 2: I mean, how do you take over the world without
Speaker 2: getting to every highest office there is? Right, But I
Speaker 2: love what you said. It wasn't like, you know, Bitcoin
Speaker 2: became O fact compliant or something like that in order
Speaker 2: for Trump to endorse it, Like he just took it
Speaker 2: as it was.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a super key piece there. So
Speaker 3: let's talk about game theory.
Speaker 1: He did take it, like he didn't just take it
Speaker 1: because it was like him being charitable. He took it
Speaker 1: because it was it was the right move to make,
Speaker 1: because we earned it. Like there are there's one hundred
Speaker 1: million of US in America, seventy million of US in
Speaker 1: America that own this asset. It's a multi trillion dollar asset.
Speaker 1: If those things were not true, it wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 1: So it's like we we earned the seat at the table,
Speaker 1: and then he wants to play ball with us as
Speaker 1: as a peer, you know, as a movement because of
Speaker 1: the power that we've been able to build and wield effectively.
Speaker 1: Any respects that, and so yeah, I mean it's it's
Speaker 1: it's nothing was given to Bitcoin, you know, like we
Speaker 1: everything that Bitcoin has, Bitcoin Bitcoin had to earn.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So jumping into the game theory piece, because like
Speaker 2: we saw, you know, El Salvador come along, a sovereign
Speaker 2: nation come along to Bitcoin a few years ago, but
Speaker 2: they're not like a really big influential nation, you know,
Speaker 2: if you will, right, But now we have the leader
Speaker 2: of the free world, you know, the US dollar, the
Speaker 2: United States government, et cetera, openly embracing it, and not
Speaker 2: just that like Trump publicly declaring that, you know, the
Speaker 2: US should be a strategic Bitcoin will reserve, but a superpower,
Speaker 2: if you will.
Speaker 3: And so I'm curious in the talks that you've.
Speaker 2: Had how that influence starts to play out in game theory.
Speaker 2: And I saw, you know, before we started recording, I
Speaker 2: mentioned that I you know, in Abu Dhabi, we are
Speaker 2: there a few months ago, and you were so busy
Speaker 2: running around with all the chiks that I ain't really
Speaker 2: get to catch up with you.
Speaker 3: But it's like the capital of capital. So I know
Speaker 3: you've been in those those rooms. What is the game theory? Like,
Speaker 3: now that the US and Trump have made that declaration.
Speaker 1: There's there's nations all over the world that are either
Speaker 1: active getting active in the market, have already gotten active,
Speaker 1: like just started to get active, or are in the
Speaker 1: process of getting active, or are studying and will get
Speaker 1: active over the course of the year. And so you know,
Speaker 1: and like nation state buy in. You know, capital it
Speaker 1: comes in many different shapes and forms. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's not just like hey, we're gonna go out onto
Speaker 1: coinbase and we're gonna hammer spot bitcoin. You know, after
Speaker 1: that conference, it was it was revealed that some of
Speaker 1: the sovereign wealth funds in Abu Dabi that you know
Speaker 1: are not that are not you know, directly the central bank,
Speaker 1: but they are sovereign money had bought bitcoin through the
Speaker 1: Black rock etf They've bought bitcoin through different funds, and
Speaker 1: then those funds have exposure to bitcoin. You know. A
Speaker 1: great analogy or example would be like this deal that
Speaker 1: just happened with Cantor and soft Bank, cant Or, soft
Speaker 1: Bank and Tether that happened last week. Okay, well, soft
Speaker 1: Bank put in a billion dollars. Whose money is that?
Speaker 1: Where to SoftBank GI their money? Oh, soft bank is
Speaker 1: back by Saudi, So that's Saldi money wrapped in a
Speaker 1: in a Japanese you know, corporate that's then deploying it
Speaker 1: into a US securitized bitcoin structure. Yeah, so like that's
Speaker 1: sober money. So like the money is flowing. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: just in the same way that bitcoin carries career risk
Speaker 1: for someone pushing it internally at their company, It carries
Speaker 1: career risk for central bankers, it carries career risk for politicians,
Speaker 1: it carries career risk for kings, and so you know,
Speaker 1: there is a a step by step process that people
Speaker 1: go through so that they are they are being appropriate
Speaker 1: and respectful, uh, and and how they go about embracing
Speaker 1: this technology, and that they're doing it in a way
Speaker 1: that they have consensus or at least enough consensus amongst
Speaker 1: their peers and amongst the other kind of power structures
Speaker 1: within within their their their government. But without a doubt
Speaker 1: it's happening. And I would say, you know, the phases
Speaker 1: of adoption, Like right now, if I had a guess,
Speaker 1: there's probably fifty nation states globally that are that are
Speaker 1: actively mining bitcoin in one hundred megawatt plus size, and
Speaker 1: you know some that have been talked about, many that
Speaker 1: are not talked about or not not public. That's kind
Speaker 1: of like the the let's say, lowest friction way through
Speaker 1: the door for a government. You know, like there's one
Speaker 1: government that well well known that you know they're turning
Speaker 1: on right now four hundred megawatts of power to use
Speaker 1: for bitcoin mining. And you know this is like their
Speaker 1: first fora well, like as these facilities get up and running,
Speaker 1: their next challenge is gonna be what happens with the bitcoin?
Speaker 1: What do we do with the bitcoin that we mind? Like, uh,
Speaker 1: who's responsible for collecting it, who's responsible for auditing it,
Speaker 1: who's responsible for liquidating it? You know, are are are
Speaker 1: we gonna have a custody provider? What custody provider are
Speaker 1: we gonna pick? We're gonna build our own custody provider.
Speaker 1: Like these are all like the next step consequences of
Speaker 1: the initial decision that you have to figure out, and
Speaker 1: then before you know it, it's like, oh, well this
Speaker 1: this country has just built out their bitcoin program. You know,
Speaker 1: now now they have all their chosen vendors to work with.
Speaker 1: Now they have their chosen delegates within the government who
Speaker 1: are responsible for the outcomes, and so like, once you
Speaker 1: have that infrastructure developed, then it's like the next step becomes, Hey,
Speaker 1: you know what, we don't have as much bitcoin as
Speaker 1: we wish we had. Let's get the central bank plugged
Speaker 1: into that thing and let's start. Let's start, let's start
Speaker 1: running our own open market operations to get some more
Speaker 1: of that. And so it's this like step by step process,
Speaker 1: but it's happening, and you already have government at the
Speaker 1: Let's get our teams into the market and start acquiring
Speaker 1: this stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's great that you lay it out like that.
Speaker 2: You know, someone like you have have been around a
Speaker 2: really long time. I've been around, not as long as
Speaker 2: you've been a long time as well, and I've built
Speaker 2: a lot of businesses, so I tend to be able
Speaker 2: to think longer.
Speaker 3: But the one problem I see for most people is
Speaker 3: they just think.
Speaker 2: So short term, and it's like, you know, why isn't
Speaker 2: this moving the market up already?
Speaker 3: I saw the news yesterday, right, But it's like, man,
Speaker 3: you don't just bring governments and sovereigns in. It takes time.
Speaker 2: As you laid out very well, like the step by
Speaker 2: step sort of incremental process that it takes to even
Speaker 2: get in. So is this something that you know takes
Speaker 2: these next three four years or it's probably more.
Speaker 3: Of just like the continued gradual sort of Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, it's like it's like the corporate adoption. It's the
Speaker 1: same dynamic playing out. It's like, Okay, first there was one,
Speaker 1: and then there was two, and then there was five,
Speaker 1: and then there was ten, and then there was one hundred,
Speaker 1: and now there's two hundred, and then in a year
Speaker 1: there'll be a thousand, right, you know, And so it
Speaker 1: is it is a continuous march, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: definitely going to be a degree of like there's definitely
Speaker 1: nation state competition and so like you know, right now,
Speaker 1: most on the corporate adoption side, most people can ignore
Speaker 1: micro strategy. But like the first like mag seven stock
Speaker 1: that buys bitcoin, like the other seven are buying bitcoin
Speaker 1: right away, and you know, the first G twenty country
Speaker 1: that buys bitcoin and and is public about it or
Speaker 1: is you know, people can identify it outside of the US,
Speaker 1: but yeah, outside of the UK, no, but the US
Speaker 1: hasn't bought yet. I mean the like as soon as
Speaker 1: the US start is it becomes active in the market,
Speaker 1: the second G twenty country is going to be going
Speaker 1: to be days behind. And so you know, the even
Speaker 1: in the United States, like I can tell you, like
Speaker 1: there's the people a strategic Bitcoin reserve, and the program
Speaker 1: for the US to go out and acquire more bitcoin
Speaker 1: is a priority to make happen, and there are people
Speaker 1: who are tasked with making it happen, and it is
Speaker 1: there they are actively working on this, this this challenge.
Speaker 1: It takes time to do these things right, Like it
Speaker 1: takes time, like even if you wanted to go full speed,
Speaker 1: it takes months and months and months. It's not like
Speaker 1: the same as just like you setting up a coin
Speaker 1: base account, you know, and and and getting to work.
Speaker 1: So these things take time. And you know, I anticipate
Speaker 1: personally that you're going to see the US get active
Speaker 1: in the market this year. And I think that you know,
Speaker 1: every other country. I mean, as I travel places, I'm
Speaker 1: asked one hundred percent of the time, what is America's
Speaker 1: bitcoin policy? You know, what is the plan with the
Speaker 1: strategic Bitcoin reserve? Is America buying bitcoin? And like every
Speaker 1: country wants to know that, So you know, the attention
Speaker 1: is there, the activity is there, and then you know,
Speaker 1: the urgency is what's developing, and and the urgency only
Speaker 1: comes when you feel a sense of competition.
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, zoom out, zoom out. It's extremely bullish. It's
Speaker 3: all in play, it's all in process, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. The wheel it's and.
Speaker 3: The wheels are emotion.
Speaker 2: And you know, the one thing I just add to
Speaker 2: what you're saying is like, obviously corporations take a long
Speaker 2: time to change their mandates and shareholders and all that.
Speaker 2: The government obviously takes longer, but once those wheels are
Speaker 2: in motion, they don't just easily stop either.
Speaker 1: Correct, it works both, It works both ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think that's a good place to wrap
Speaker 2: it up. Let's just have you leave us with something.
Speaker 2: Since you've been in bitcoin, building in bitcoin for so long,
Speaker 2: I didn't even get into the media company.
Speaker 3: That's something I was interested in as I'm in the
Speaker 3: media as well. But building in the space for a
Speaker 3: long time.
Speaker 2: I mean, you've probably convinced a million skeptics about it,
Speaker 2: you got the US President on board. What is one
Speaker 2: thing that you could say, uh, tell the world why
Speaker 2: bitcoin matters not as a currency but as a revolution.
Speaker 1: You know, I think fundamentally it is it is the
Speaker 1: separation of money in state, and is the removal of
Speaker 1: the unchecked, unfettered power of nations to compel their people
Speaker 1: to do things by access and control of the money.
Speaker 1: Like that is the fundamental premise of this whole thing.
Speaker 1: And when we separate money and the state, we create
Speaker 1: a consensual society. And every part of our society has
Speaker 1: the capacity to grow in a way that it can't
Speaker 1: when it's being malformed via centralized control. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: I think the way to unshackle humanity is through unshackling
Speaker 1: control over the money that rules us.
Speaker 3: Love it, separate money in state, and that's why. All right, David,
Speaker 3: that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Anything I want to shout out obviously, bitcoin conference next month,
Speaker 2: bitcoin magazine, anything else, Yeah, man.
Speaker 1: Just buy some bitcoin.
Speaker 3: Bitcoin, all right, all.
Speaker 1: Right, and thank you.
Speaker 3: Mark.
Speaker 1: Enjoyed being on