1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Here's what we're doing today, Ready, but do we 2 00:00:22,316 --> 00:00:24,676 Speaker 1: do it? I'm going to do an episode of revisionist 3 00:00:24,716 --> 00:00:29,476 Speaker 1: History in which I you know, I'm obsessed with hiring. 4 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:32,436 Speaker 1: I've always been obsessed with that. So what I'm doing 5 00:00:32,516 --> 00:00:34,876 Speaker 1: is I'm interviewing all the people I ever hired, and 6 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 1: you you're the first person I hired. 7 00:00:38,996 --> 00:00:41,596 Speaker 2: And wear that badge pretty proudly. I'll tell you what. 8 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:48,596 Speaker 1: Stacy Kailish my first assistant. I'd never had an assistant before, 9 00:00:48,996 --> 00:00:52,796 Speaker 1: but maybe fifteen years ago, right after publishing my second book, Blink, 10 00:00:53,036 --> 00:00:55,996 Speaker 1: I realized I was spending all my time answering emails 11 00:00:56,316 --> 00:01:00,076 Speaker 1: and booking travel instead of writing, so I decided I 12 00:01:00,116 --> 00:01:05,956 Speaker 1: needed some help. I didn't remember the circumstances under which 13 00:01:06,676 --> 00:01:08,356 Speaker 1: you came to work for me, so I thought I 14 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:12,436 Speaker 1: would just ask you remind me again how I found you. 15 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 1: A big theme of what follows is that I have 16 00:01:16,436 --> 00:01:20,836 Speaker 1: no memory, names, faces, dates. I basically forget everything. A 17 00:01:20,956 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 1: normal person doesn't have to do research on their own life, 18 00:01:24,036 --> 00:01:25,556 Speaker 1: but I'm afraid I do. 19 00:01:26,916 --> 00:01:32,796 Speaker 2: Okay, so I have some funny, funny memories around the 20 00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:38,396 Speaker 2: whole hiring situation. So you've found me? How it happened 21 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:43,116 Speaker 2: was I had just finished grad school and was looking 22 00:01:43,116 --> 00:01:43,756 Speaker 2: for a job. 23 00:01:44,476 --> 00:01:48,276 Speaker 1: Stacy knew someone who knew someone who had an assistant 24 00:01:48,396 --> 00:01:51,636 Speaker 1: who knew me, or something like that. Very complicated. Anyway, 25 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:54,636 Speaker 1: I got Stacy's name and just emailed her out of 26 00:01:54,676 --> 00:01:56,116 Speaker 1: the blue. 27 00:01:56,636 --> 00:01:58,356 Speaker 2: You're like, you don't know me, but I'm looking for 28 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:00,796 Speaker 2: an assistant, you know, would you be interested? 29 00:02:01,476 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 1: We met the next day for coffee. 30 00:02:03,556 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 2: We chatted for literally, I'm gonna say, all of thirty minutes. 31 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:10,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so, yeah, we were you. 32 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:13,956 Speaker 2: Were going to you were traveling to South Africa. All 33 00:02:13,996 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 2: we spoke about of what I can remember is you 34 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:20,036 Speaker 2: had said, oh, you have an accent. You have an accent. 35 00:02:20,076 --> 00:02:21,996 Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, I was born in South Africa and then, 36 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:24,156 Speaker 2: you know, moved to Australia. They're like, oh, I'm going 37 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:27,596 Speaker 2: to South Africa for business or you know, for Europe 38 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:30,116 Speaker 2: speaking engagements. The next day and so I think for 39 00:02:30,156 --> 00:02:33,876 Speaker 2: about twenty minutes, all we talked about was like recommendations 40 00:02:33,876 --> 00:02:35,116 Speaker 2: of what you should do in South Africa. 41 00:02:35,556 --> 00:02:39,076 Speaker 1: That pretty much I think was it's a rigorous job. 42 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:42,596 Speaker 2: Rigorous, like, yes, you really vetted me through and through 43 00:02:43,316 --> 00:02:46,396 Speaker 2: my knowledge, where best to eat in South Africa. So 44 00:02:46,436 --> 00:02:51,236 Speaker 2: we talked about that, and I remember hilariously being very 45 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:54,596 Speaker 2: concerned because I just got in a nose ring, and 46 00:02:54,636 --> 00:02:57,116 Speaker 2: I remember thinking, oh, I don't know, you know, is 47 00:02:57,156 --> 00:02:59,556 Speaker 2: he going to like should I take the nose ring 48 00:02:59,596 --> 00:03:01,596 Speaker 2: out for the interview? Will he notice? 49 00:03:01,676 --> 00:03:01,956 Speaker 3: Is this? 50 00:03:02,476 --> 00:03:02,636 Speaker 4: You know? 51 00:03:03,796 --> 00:03:06,996 Speaker 2: Is it proper or professional of me? And I literally 52 00:03:07,036 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 2: remember like maybe six months to a year later, when 53 00:03:10,276 --> 00:03:12,356 Speaker 2: I was obviously had been working for you all that time, 54 00:03:12,636 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 2: and I said to you something about like did you 55 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:17,196 Speaker 2: ever notice that or something about my nose ring came out? 56 00:03:17,196 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 2: You're like, Oh, I didn't even know you had one. 57 00:03:20,516 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 2: But I agonized, I'm aware that to keep this nose 58 00:03:23,276 --> 00:03:26,556 Speaker 2: ring in or not for fear that it would you know, 59 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 2: I don't know if it would be a bad look. 60 00:03:28,636 --> 00:03:31,756 Speaker 2: And you did not for like the entire year, the 61 00:03:31,796 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 2: first year that I worked for you, did not even 62 00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:35,116 Speaker 2: notice that I had a nose ring. 63 00:03:37,076 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 1: I didn't notice then, I don't remember. Now this is 64 00:03:40,196 --> 00:03:46,076 Speaker 1: getting off to a bad start. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. 65 00:03:46,556 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 1: You're listening to my podcast about Things Overlooked and Misunderstood. 66 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: In this episode, I turned the unflinching analytic gaze that 67 00:03:56,676 --> 00:04:07,236 Speaker 1: is revisionist history upon myself. Let us use as our 68 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:11,436 Speaker 1: text via mortal lines for the New Testament Matthew seven, 69 00:04:11,756 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 1: verse five, Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out 70 00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:25,036 Speaker 1: of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly 71 00:04:25,076 --> 00:04:36,916 Speaker 1: to cast out the moat out of thy brother's eye. 72 00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:40,156 Speaker 2: You had emailed me and we'd met the next morning 73 00:04:40,156 --> 00:04:43,076 Speaker 2: because you were leaving, I think shortly after that for 74 00:04:43,156 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 2: South Africa. We spoke for about thirty minutes, twenty twenty 75 00:04:47,476 --> 00:04:50,516 Speaker 2: five of which was about South Africa, and then you 76 00:04:50,676 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 2: left and you said to me, he said, okay, great. 77 00:04:53,756 --> 00:04:55,676 Speaker 2: You know, I got a couple more people to interview, 78 00:04:56,356 --> 00:04:58,076 Speaker 2: and so I guess I'll be in touch when I'm 79 00:04:58,116 --> 00:04:59,796 Speaker 2: back for my travel in like two weeks or so. 80 00:04:59,876 --> 00:05:02,716 Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, you know, good to meet you, And 81 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:04,916 Speaker 2: being kind of nervous you left, I thought, oh god, 82 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:06,476 Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to wait now for two weeks to 83 00:05:06,516 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 2: find out and about I'm gonna say. Ten to fifteen 84 00:05:10,236 --> 00:05:15,716 Speaker 2: minutes later, my phone rang and I answered it and 85 00:05:15,756 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 2: you're like, hey, it's Malcolm again. 86 00:05:18,996 --> 00:05:19,556 Speaker 5: So listen. 87 00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:22,396 Speaker 2: You seem nice enough. Why don't you just come by 88 00:05:22,476 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 2: and start tomorrow. 89 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:29,956 Speaker 1: It's just like. It was like the least professional hiring 90 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:32,516 Speaker 1: story I ever heard in my life. 91 00:05:33,276 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 2: And the funniest thing as well, is I was like, 92 00:05:36,036 --> 00:05:39,756 Speaker 2: this must have been like a blink moment for him. 93 00:05:39,836 --> 00:05:42,516 Speaker 2: I mean, you had just finished writing Blink. That's when 94 00:05:42,516 --> 00:05:44,796 Speaker 2: I'd started with you, like two thousand and five, right 95 00:05:44,836 --> 00:05:47,996 Speaker 2: after that book. And I remember laughing with you again 96 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:51,556 Speaker 2: a few months later, well into you know, the job, 97 00:05:51,676 --> 00:05:54,916 Speaker 2: and saying to you, you know when you hired me, Yo, 98 00:05:55,436 --> 00:05:58,676 Speaker 2: you didn't really met me much. Was it like a 99 00:05:58,716 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 2: blink moment? 100 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:01,196 Speaker 1: You just knew and you said to me. 101 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 2: Nah, I just couldn't be bothered going through any more interviews, 102 00:06:06,436 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 2: and you seem nice enough. That was seem nice. I 103 00:06:09,836 --> 00:06:11,476 Speaker 2: just didn't feel like interviewing anyone else. 104 00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 1: As I've stated, I remember none of this, but it 105 00:06:17,156 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 1: all seems a little strange, doesn't it. I was about 106 00:06:20,236 --> 00:06:25,396 Speaker 1: to hand Stacy access to all of my business, credit cards, mail, 107 00:06:25,636 --> 00:06:29,396 Speaker 1: media requests. I would soon make her my main intermediary 108 00:06:29,716 --> 00:06:33,156 Speaker 1: with the entire outside world. Did I appear to have 109 00:06:33,196 --> 00:06:34,036 Speaker 1: read your resume? 110 00:06:35,876 --> 00:06:38,036 Speaker 2: Um skimmed? 111 00:06:38,436 --> 00:06:38,956 Speaker 6: Maybe? 112 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:40,956 Speaker 1: Did I ask you? Do you rememory if I asked 113 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:44,636 Speaker 1: you any questions about your schooling? No, did you have 114 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:47,276 Speaker 1: any previous work experience that was relevant? 115 00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:53,156 Speaker 2: I had interned and worked at Frontline, but I mean 116 00:06:53,196 --> 00:06:55,276 Speaker 2: that's more documentary. 117 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:55,716 Speaker 3: It is not really. 118 00:06:55,796 --> 00:06:56,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was on my resume. 119 00:06:57,276 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 7: You obviously didn't. 120 00:06:59,956 --> 00:07:03,316 Speaker 1: Who knew Frontline? Well that's impressive. If I'd done that, 121 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:05,436 Speaker 1: I might might have hired you in ten minutes. And 122 00:07:05,476 --> 00:07:09,916 Speaker 1: it's posted twenty five Now. My first defense reaction to 123 00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:12,996 Speaker 1: what Stacy was telling me was this was my first hire. 124 00:07:13,236 --> 00:07:17,636 Speaker 1: What did I know? Then she reminded me of someone else. 125 00:07:18,236 --> 00:07:20,196 Speaker 2: Do you still work with the Buttnick? 126 00:07:22,636 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'd forgotten that story, the Buttnick Don Budnick. 127 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:32,076 Speaker 1: Even though I've barely gotten started here. This requires a digression. 128 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:34,876 Speaker 5: Well that's a fun story from my end. 129 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 7: Well, I'd just like you to I'd like to tell it. 130 00:07:39,076 --> 00:07:40,636 Speaker 7: What year was this? 131 00:07:41,996 --> 00:07:42,276 Speaker 3: Five? 132 00:07:43,036 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 7: How can you remember that? 133 00:07:45,116 --> 00:07:50,396 Speaker 5: Because I'm a savant, the blink had just hit the shelves. 134 00:07:50,996 --> 00:07:53,556 Speaker 1: Blink in case you hadn't picked up on it is 135 00:07:53,596 --> 00:07:57,476 Speaker 1: about the power of first impressions. Don had just read 136 00:07:57,516 --> 00:07:58,556 Speaker 1: it and liked it. 137 00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 5: So anyway, one day I was I was out for lunch, 138 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:04,756 Speaker 5: or I went to the bank or something, and I'm 139 00:08:04,756 --> 00:08:08,436 Speaker 5: walking back to my office and there and there you are. 140 00:08:08,916 --> 00:08:11,916 Speaker 5: I see me walking down the street in the opposite 141 00:08:11,996 --> 00:08:15,436 Speaker 5: direction of me, and I knew immediately who you were. 142 00:08:15,436 --> 00:08:17,356 Speaker 5: But I couldn't think of your name. Couldn't think of 143 00:08:17,396 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 5: your name, couldn't think of your name. You passed me by. 144 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:23,676 Speaker 5: I turn, I opened my mouth, I yelled out, hey, Malcolm, 145 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:28,836 Speaker 5: but I didn't know your name. I just yelled out, hey, Malcolm, Yeah, 146 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 5: just like in the book blink. And you stopped and 147 00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:34,916 Speaker 5: you turned around. And I seemed like a nice enough guy, 148 00:08:35,236 --> 00:08:38,276 Speaker 5: and you picked up on my energy of being excited 149 00:08:38,276 --> 00:08:39,996 Speaker 5: by the book. So we were standing on the street 150 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:42,756 Speaker 5: talking for a while and I said, gee, I would 151 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 5: love it if you would autograph my book for me. 152 00:08:45,756 --> 00:08:47,956 Speaker 5: And then it dawned on me. We were around the 153 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:51,436 Speaker 5: corner from my office, so I said, you know what, 154 00:08:51,476 --> 00:08:54,156 Speaker 5: We're around the corner from my office. And you came 155 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:57,316 Speaker 5: up to my office. You still didn't know my name, 156 00:08:57,396 --> 00:08:59,236 Speaker 5: you didn't know who I was. I was just a 157 00:08:59,316 --> 00:09:01,356 Speaker 5: nice guy in the street. And you come up to 158 00:09:01,396 --> 00:09:04,676 Speaker 5: my office and were sitting there talking, and that's when 159 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:07,436 Speaker 5: you notice things on my desk and you see the 160 00:09:07,436 --> 00:09:12,156 Speaker 5: initial CPA, and you say to me, oh, you're an accountant. 161 00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:14,996 Speaker 5: I said, yeah, I'm an accountant. And you said, gee, 162 00:09:15,436 --> 00:09:18,196 Speaker 5: I'm really not that happy with the accountants I'm using 163 00:09:18,276 --> 00:09:24,996 Speaker 5: right now? Can I hire you? And I was a 164 00:09:24,996 --> 00:09:29,076 Speaker 5: little excited and dumbfounded at the same time, and I said, 165 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 5: slow down, I said, I said, we'll make an appointment. Well, 166 00:09:35,036 --> 00:09:38,636 Speaker 5: sit and we'll talk about what your situation is and 167 00:09:38,676 --> 00:09:41,156 Speaker 5: what kind of advice I could possibly give you, and 168 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 5: then you'll figure out if you want to hire me 169 00:09:44,196 --> 00:09:46,116 Speaker 5: or not. And you said no, no, I want to 170 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:49,036 Speaker 5: hire and I said, no, we're going to We're do 171 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:51,556 Speaker 5: this right. We're not going to do this impulsively. And 172 00:09:51,556 --> 00:09:53,636 Speaker 5: eventually you came to my office and I gave you 173 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:55,636 Speaker 5: a consultation and you hired me. 174 00:09:56,316 --> 00:10:00,476 Speaker 1: So a perfect stranger, short guy, red hair, runs up 175 00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:04,556 Speaker 1: to me on Madison Avenue, Malcolm Malcolm, and five minutes later, 176 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:07,196 Speaker 1: I'm trying to hire him to handle all of my 177 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: most sensitive affairs. Who am I? 178 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:15,836 Speaker 7: So you wouldn't let me. I was like, I want 179 00:10:15,876 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 7: to hire you, but you wouldn't let me. 180 00:10:17,356 --> 00:10:22,476 Speaker 5: I wouldn't let you yet because I wanted to have 181 00:10:22,636 --> 00:10:26,556 Speaker 5: a serious conversation where where I gave you a consultation 182 00:10:26,836 --> 00:10:30,596 Speaker 5: and I discussed what planning ideas I had for you. 183 00:10:31,316 --> 00:10:35,156 Speaker 5: I wanted to make sure that you made your decision 184 00:10:35,276 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 5: not based on impulse, but based on some knowledge and 185 00:10:42,116 --> 00:10:45,876 Speaker 5: trust and confidence that I knew what I was talking about. 186 00:10:46,276 --> 00:10:48,996 Speaker 7: But I had just told you that the reason I 187 00:10:48,996 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 7: didn't like my old account was they never had any 188 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:53,876 Speaker 7: conversation with me other I didn't know any about accounting. 189 00:10:54,356 --> 00:10:56,396 Speaker 7: So how can I How can I have an intelligent 190 00:10:56,436 --> 00:10:59,516 Speaker 7: conversation with you about whether you should be my account 191 00:10:59,556 --> 00:11:01,796 Speaker 7: if I have never had any intelligent conversation with an 192 00:11:01,836 --> 00:11:03,156 Speaker 7: account but thou whether it should. 193 00:11:02,916 --> 00:11:06,156 Speaker 5: Be my accountant precisely, And it goes around and around 194 00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 5: and around whatever. 195 00:11:07,956 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: This is getting embarrassed, all right? Now comes the part 196 00:11:13,036 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 1: where I try and defend myself. In every season of 197 00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:19,796 Speaker 1: Revisionist History, I fall in love with someone I interview. 198 00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:24,076 Speaker 1: Last season it was Tony Gebli, the T connoisseur, who 199 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:27,796 Speaker 1: accused me of being a T bro meaning Tony for 200 00:11:27,876 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 1: reasons I don't entirely understand, made me very happy. The 201 00:11:31,716 --> 00:11:35,356 Speaker 1: season before that, it was Casey Bowles, the musician from Nashville, 202 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:37,956 Speaker 1: who sang a song that brings me to tears every 203 00:11:37,956 --> 00:11:38,676 Speaker 1: time I hear it. 204 00:11:39,196 --> 00:11:42,036 Speaker 7: She grew up playing cowgirl. 205 00:11:43,396 --> 00:11:51,436 Speaker 1: In a ROTWN dreams GC holl kac I b O 206 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 1: l l s when this is over look her up. 207 00:11:58,596 --> 00:12:01,636 Speaker 1: This season, the interview that surprised me the most was 208 00:12:01,676 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 1: with someone named Adam Kronkrite. I talked about him in 209 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: the episode on democratic Lotteries. Adam has made it his 210 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 1: life's work to convince grade school kids to choose their 211 00:12:11,636 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 1: student council governments by picking names out of a hat. Actually, 212 00:12:16,196 --> 00:12:19,556 Speaker 1: since Adam works in Bolivia by picking father beans out 213 00:12:19,556 --> 00:12:23,076 Speaker 1: of a clay pot, can I ask you for your question? Yeah, 214 00:12:23,116 --> 00:12:27,316 Speaker 1: that's Adam. After we talked, he seemed slightly mystified about 215 00:12:27,316 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 1: why I had emailed him one day out of the blue. 216 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:33,516 Speaker 1: So how do you find out about lottery selection like 217 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:36,236 Speaker 1: democratic lottery concerts? I was just interested. I've always been 218 00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:43,036 Speaker 1: interested in lotteries, and I just was rooting around online 219 00:12:43,036 --> 00:12:45,796 Speaker 1: and I ran across the work you were doing. I mean, 220 00:12:45,836 --> 00:12:47,956 Speaker 1: it's as simple as I was sitting in my coffee 221 00:12:47,956 --> 00:12:50,716 Speaker 1: shop over there. That was the day I contacted you. 222 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:55,276 Speaker 1: I was like, this is really interesting and it's totally random. 223 00:12:56,316 --> 00:13:00,036 Speaker 1: Now there's a very important distinction with this whole lottery thing. 224 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:09,636 Speaker 1: It's between agnosticism and nihilism. Agnosticism is about indifference. It's 225 00:13:09,716 --> 00:13:15,996 Speaker 1: an elaborate gallic shrug. The agnostic would say, the reason 226 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:19,356 Speaker 1: to choose people randomly for positions of leadership is that 227 00:13:19,436 --> 00:13:23,236 Speaker 1: basically anyone can do the job. The army in wartime 228 00:13:23,516 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 1: has an agnostic position. Their belief is they can take 229 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:29,916 Speaker 1: almost any able bodied person and turn them into a 230 00:13:29,956 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 1: reasonably effective soldier. But that's not Adam kronk Wright's position. 231 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:38,316 Speaker 1: He absolutely thinks that there are good leaders and bad leaders, 232 00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:41,076 Speaker 1: and not everyone is cut out to be student council president. 233 00:13:41,676 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: He just doesn't believe that the systems we currently use 234 00:13:44,476 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 1: are any good, so he says, why bother just pull 235 00:13:48,236 --> 00:13:51,556 Speaker 1: a name out of a hat. Now Adam would argue 236 00:13:51,676 --> 00:13:55,556 Speaker 1: that's in the interests of a fair system, but let's 237 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: be clear, he's a nihilist. He does not look at 238 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 1: the vast apparatus of democratic selection, honed and perfected over 239 00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:07,156 Speaker 1: many centuries and shrug. That's what the agnostic would do. No, 240 00:14:07,716 --> 00:14:11,076 Speaker 1: he looks at those elaborates rtuals and he rolls his eyes. 241 00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:15,956 Speaker 1: He says, give me a break. That's my position too. 242 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:18,356 Speaker 1: When it comes to Hiring. I look at all the 243 00:14:18,396 --> 00:14:22,116 Speaker 1: folklore and ritual around predicting how well people will perform, 244 00:14:22,356 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 1: and I say, give me a break. I am an 245 00:14:25,596 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 1: eye roller, not a shrugger. I am a nihilist, and 246 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: my task in this episode of revisionist history is to 247 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:44,396 Speaker 1: convince you to be a nihilist too. The patron saint 248 00:14:44,516 --> 00:14:48,996 Speaker 1: of Hiring Nihilism, without question, was the author and educator 249 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:53,316 Speaker 1: Lawrence Peter. All of us in the Hiring nihilist community 250 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:54,836 Speaker 1: worship at his feed. 251 00:14:59,836 --> 00:15:02,636 Speaker 4: When I was a boy, I used to believe my 252 00:15:02,756 --> 00:15:05,756 Speaker 4: parents and believe my teachers, and that you should have 253 00:15:05,836 --> 00:15:08,156 Speaker 4: respect for your elders and betters, and that the men 254 00:15:08,276 --> 00:15:09,876 Speaker 4: upstairs what they were doing. 255 00:15:10,356 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 1: That's Peter. He was a Canadian, as am I, of course, 256 00:15:14,116 --> 00:15:16,916 Speaker 1: And I don't know if you remember from the Lottery episode, 257 00:15:16,996 --> 00:15:21,276 Speaker 1: but Adam Kronkwright went to university in Canada. The nihilist 258 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:25,836 Speaker 1: strain runs deep in the land of the Frozen Prairie anyway. 259 00:15:26,236 --> 00:15:30,196 Speaker 1: Lawrence Peter was a great afhorist, famous for saying things 260 00:15:30,276 --> 00:15:33,156 Speaker 1: like the noblest of all dogs is the hot dog. 261 00:15:33,516 --> 00:15:36,476 Speaker 1: It feeds the hand that bites it. He was also 262 00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:40,036 Speaker 1: deeply involved in something called the Kinetic Sculpture Race in 263 00:15:40,156 --> 00:15:44,436 Speaker 1: Humboldt County, California, which is really hard to explain, except 264 00:15:44,476 --> 00:15:46,716 Speaker 1: to say that it's kind of like the Triathlon of 265 00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:50,676 Speaker 1: the art world, involving sculptures on wheels that are required 266 00:15:50,676 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 1: to perform certain feats. Peter famously proposed a special prize 267 00:15:56,076 --> 00:15:59,356 Speaker 1: called the Golden Dinosaur Award, to be given to the 268 00:15:59,356 --> 00:16:03,316 Speaker 1: first machine to break down immediately after the start, which 269 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 1: if you knew Lawrence Peter, you would recognize as being 270 00:16:07,036 --> 00:16:12,196 Speaker 1: very Lawrence Peter. Because his professional obsession was with incompetence. 271 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 1: He had a connoisseur's eye for it. 272 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 4: And as I looked around me, I saw a sign 273 00:16:19,956 --> 00:16:24,716 Speaker 4: on the door that said emergency exit authorized personnel only. 274 00:16:25,156 --> 00:16:29,156 Speaker 4: I wondered who'd written that, But then later I saw 275 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:33,636 Speaker 4: another scien It said emergency exit not to be used 276 00:16:33,756 --> 00:16:35,556 Speaker 4: under any circumstances. 277 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 1: Lawrence Peter formulated one of the most famous laws in 278 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:42,756 Speaker 1: social science. He called it the Peter principle. 279 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:48,956 Speaker 4: The Peter principal states very simply that in any hierarchy, 280 00:16:49,356 --> 00:16:53,476 Speaker 4: an employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence. 281 00:16:53,876 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 4: That's where he stays. 282 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:02,796 Speaker 1: People get promoted based on a prediction about their ability 283 00:17:02,796 --> 00:17:05,396 Speaker 1: to handle the next job on the hierarchy, and they 284 00:17:05,476 --> 00:17:08,356 Speaker 1: keep rising until the prediction is wrong. 285 00:17:09,276 --> 00:17:16,036 Speaker 4: You see, in any organization where competence is essentially eligibility 286 00:17:16,076 --> 00:17:20,796 Speaker 4: for promotion and incompetence is a bar to promotion. Wherever 287 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:23,876 Speaker 4: those rules apply, people who rise to the level of 288 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:26,076 Speaker 4: incompetence and tend to stay there. 289 00:17:27,316 --> 00:17:30,476 Speaker 1: Lawrence Peter wrote a book called Peter Principle in nineteen 290 00:17:30,516 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 1: sixty nine, and it is delightful, exactly in a Lawrence 291 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:36,916 Speaker 1: Peter sort of way, like he has a whole riff 292 00:17:36,996 --> 00:17:39,956 Speaker 1: on the special case of someone who is incompetent or 293 00:17:40,036 --> 00:17:47,036 Speaker 1: promoted anyway kicked upstairs a movie calls percussive sublimation, or 294 00:17:47,076 --> 00:17:50,236 Speaker 1: the case when an incompetent person is moved out of 295 00:17:50,316 --> 00:17:53,556 Speaker 1: the way but given a long job title as compensation. 296 00:17:54,476 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 1: Peter called that a lateral arabesque. Now chances are you've 297 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:02,996 Speaker 1: heard of the Peter principle. I'm guessing as a kind 298 00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: of joke. Haha, that's why my boss is so bad. 299 00:18:06,596 --> 00:18:15,636 Speaker 1: But it's not a joke. Allow me to direct you 300 00:18:15,676 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 1: to the work of a fellow member of the Hiring 301 00:18:18,116 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 1: Nihilist Club, Alan Benson economist at the University of Minnesota. 302 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:26,636 Speaker 1: While he was doing his doctorate at MIT, he got 303 00:18:26,676 --> 00:18:28,276 Speaker 1: bitten by the Peter principal. 304 00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:32,836 Speaker 8: Bug I started to go to sales management conferences, and 305 00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:35,156 Speaker 8: I found that there was this adage that the best 306 00:18:35,196 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 8: sales person doesn't necessarily make the best manager. But then 307 00:18:39,076 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 8: people would laugh and say, but we do it anyway, 308 00:18:41,916 --> 00:18:43,396 Speaker 8: and I wanted to find out why. 309 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:47,476 Speaker 1: The great advantage of using salespeople to validate the Peter principle, 310 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:51,516 Speaker 1: Benson realizes is that you can measure performance really easily. 311 00:18:51,996 --> 00:18:56,076 Speaker 1: It's not like assessing the performance of engineers or politicians. No, 312 00:18:56,356 --> 00:18:59,196 Speaker 1: it's super straightforward. You just look at how many sales 313 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:02,196 Speaker 1: the salesperson has made. And it's also easy to measure 314 00:19:02,196 --> 00:19:05,076 Speaker 1: how good a sales manager is. You just add up 315 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:08,516 Speaker 1: the sales of the salespeople the manager's managing. So Alan 316 00:19:08,556 --> 00:19:11,956 Speaker 1: Benson's a tech company that sells one of those software 317 00:19:11,996 --> 00:19:16,596 Speaker 1: platforms for sales organizations, kind of like salesforce dot com, 318 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:19,916 Speaker 1: and he gets access to all of their customer's data. 319 00:19:20,476 --> 00:19:25,196 Speaker 1: Four hundred firms, one hundred thousand salespeople. The first thing 320 00:19:25,236 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 1: he finds is a confirmation of the famous eighty twenty 321 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:32,356 Speaker 1: rule that twenty percent of the salespeople are responsible for 322 00:19:32,516 --> 00:19:36,236 Speaker 1: eighty percent of the sales across the board. It's not 323 00:19:36,396 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 1: that we don't know who is a good salesperson. We 324 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:44,556 Speaker 1: definitely know some people are really good. Second thing, he 325 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:47,636 Speaker 1: finds that those superstars get rewarded. 326 00:19:48,236 --> 00:19:51,676 Speaker 8: What we found in the data is that top salespeople 327 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:54,716 Speaker 8: are far far more likely to be promoted into sales 328 00:19:54,756 --> 00:19:58,356 Speaker 8: management than people who are outside of that top twenty 329 00:19:58,356 --> 00:20:01,076 Speaker 8: percent or who aren't the best person on the team. 330 00:20:01,556 --> 00:20:04,956 Speaker 1: Of course, that makes sense. You give the stars a promotion. 331 00:20:05,356 --> 00:20:09,796 Speaker 1: That's what everyone does. Okay, Now it gets interesting. What 332 00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:13,356 Speaker 1: happens when those stars take over as manager. 333 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:17,356 Speaker 8: Their salespeople than salespeople who they manage. Their performances becomes 334 00:20:17,396 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 8: worse under them than it was under their prior managers. 335 00:20:21,476 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 1: The stars get promoted, and they're terrible managers. How terrible, 336 00:20:25,396 --> 00:20:29,876 Speaker 1: really terrible. Benson looked at an alternate promotion scenario where 337 00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:33,636 Speaker 1: companies decide to promote not the stars but the salespeople 338 00:20:33,636 --> 00:20:36,956 Speaker 1: who are good at collaborating, nice, friendly people who work 339 00:20:36,996 --> 00:20:40,356 Speaker 1: well with others, and teams managed by the friendly people 340 00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 1: do thirty percent better than the teams managed by the 341 00:20:43,556 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 1: superstars thirty percent. That's huge. Now, you might say, what 342 00:20:48,756 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 1: does this have to do with nihilism? This is just 343 00:20:51,276 --> 00:20:55,316 Speaker 1: an argument for promoting friendly people over superstars. That's not 344 00:20:55,396 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: eye rolling or even shrugging. Well, I haven't told you 345 00:20:58,956 --> 00:21:03,956 Speaker 1: about Benson's last finding, because Benson found a fatal flaw 346 00:21:04,156 --> 00:21:07,316 Speaker 1: in the alternate promoting scenario, the one that seems to 347 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:12,196 Speaker 1: work thirty percent better, which is this, if you promote 348 00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:16,276 Speaker 1: the friendly salespeople over the top salespeople, then the top 349 00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:20,916 Speaker 1: salespeople get upset, so upset that their performance suffers and 350 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,756 Speaker 1: they aren't so top anymore. The whole thing is so 351 00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:29,436 Speaker 1: magnificently perverse, isn't it. All Your sales come from the 352 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:32,716 Speaker 1: same small group of people who expect to be promoted 353 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:36,116 Speaker 1: as a reward for their excellence. But if you promote 354 00:21:36,116 --> 00:21:38,916 Speaker 1: them out of sales, what you get in return is 355 00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:42,036 Speaker 1: a lousy manager. And if you don't promote them and 356 00:21:42,116 --> 00:21:44,836 Speaker 1: you pass them over in favor of some warm and 357 00:21:44,956 --> 00:21:49,996 Speaker 1: fuzzy into personal woos, the top performers will pout and 358 00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:53,916 Speaker 1: stop trying. So what are you supposed to do? You 359 00:21:53,916 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 1: could pay the superstars more and more and give them 360 00:21:56,516 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 1: fancier titles in the maneuver Lawrence Peter called the lateral Arabesque. 361 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:04,516 Speaker 1: But you've still insulted them by passing them over for 362 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 1: the friendly wooss. Another idea that some Peter Princes theorists 363 00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 1: have floated is lotteries they end up where Adam Kronkwright 364 00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:16,356 Speaker 1: ended up, put everyone's name in a hat and promote 365 00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,876 Speaker 1: the winner. I mean, why not, But then why have 366 00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:23,036 Speaker 1: a boss at all? The concept of a boss is 367 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 1: that a boss knows more than the people they're bossing. 368 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:29,316 Speaker 1: There's even a school of thought in the upper reaches 369 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:32,996 Speaker 1: of Peter principal world that the best solution is just 370 00:22:33,076 --> 00:22:38,276 Speaker 1: to man up, forget everything else, and deliberately promote the incompetent, 371 00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:41,556 Speaker 1: because this way you won't lose one of your superstars 372 00:22:41,556 --> 00:22:44,636 Speaker 1: by turning them into a lowsy manager. You'll just transfer 373 00:22:44,836 --> 00:22:49,516 Speaker 1: an incompetent person from their present position of incompetence to 374 00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:54,516 Speaker 1: another position of incompetence upstairs somewhere, where they will occupy 375 00:22:54,556 --> 00:22:58,316 Speaker 1: a position which, according to the Peter principle, was bound 376 00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:01,996 Speaker 1: to be occupied by an incompetent person sooner or later. Anyway, 377 00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:09,756 Speaker 1: did you follow that Peter principle, theorizing gets very meta, 378 00:23:10,556 --> 00:23:14,636 Speaker 1: very quickly, which is why most people would rather console 379 00:23:14,676 --> 00:23:19,436 Speaker 1: themselves with the soothing banalities of merit and prediction and hierarchy. 380 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 1: Only a select few are willing to face the truth. 381 00:23:25,476 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 1: And who are those brave and lonely heretics, the nihilists, 382 00:23:31,036 --> 00:23:33,716 Speaker 1: people like me who look at the world with a 383 00:23:33,796 --> 00:23:38,916 Speaker 1: cold and unflinching eye and say, under the circumstances, why 384 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:42,796 Speaker 1: bother to learn the first thing about any new perspective? 385 00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 1: Job candidate, Things went well with my first hire, Stacy, 386 00:23:54,476 --> 00:23:57,836 Speaker 1: but eventually Stacy needed to move on, and so I 387 00:23:57,876 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 1: had to go through the whole process all over again 388 00:24:01,276 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 1: with Sarah. 389 00:24:02,676 --> 00:24:08,316 Speaker 6: Basically, we didn't talk about anything professional at all. As 390 00:24:08,356 --> 00:24:11,396 Speaker 6: I recall it, it was a little bit about family 391 00:24:11,716 --> 00:24:15,036 Speaker 6: and that I was half American, and that I could 392 00:24:15,196 --> 00:24:17,116 Speaker 6: you know that I knew the fifty states of America 393 00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 6: in alphabetical order. 394 00:24:18,836 --> 00:24:22,676 Speaker 1: That's Sarah remembering my second ever job in review. 395 00:24:23,276 --> 00:24:25,956 Speaker 6: And you taught me a Yiddish word. 396 00:24:26,356 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 1: I taught you a Yiddish word. 397 00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:31,836 Speaker 6: Well, you wanted to know if I knew about the 398 00:24:32,756 --> 00:24:34,836 Speaker 6: A word. Maybe you had just had just learned it. 399 00:24:34,876 --> 00:24:37,156 Speaker 6: I don't know, but it's the word that is the 400 00:24:37,236 --> 00:24:41,436 Speaker 6: kind of the opposite directional flow of nahus. So nahas 401 00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 6: being like the joy that your children give you, and 402 00:24:43,996 --> 00:24:47,956 Speaker 6: this word being ucus, Yeah, the one that you give them. 403 00:24:48,036 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, nas and yus. I had just given. I 404 00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: given a speech to like some Jewish organization in Boston, 405 00:25:00,076 --> 00:25:02,556 Speaker 1: and of course I'm not Jewish, so I was filled 406 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 1: with anxiety, and so I said, well, I have to 407 00:25:05,156 --> 00:25:08,236 Speaker 1: impress them early on. And so I began my speech 408 00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:13,596 Speaker 1: by with something about the distinction between yuchus and nucus. 409 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:20,236 Speaker 1: It was nacus us, right, yeah, So there I was 410 00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:28,836 Speaker 1: schooling you Jewish person well about Yiddish. I hired Sarah 411 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:32,316 Speaker 1: by email the same afternoon we met. She was another 412 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:35,356 Speaker 1: recent college graduate. I didn't really bring up the job 413 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:38,676 Speaker 1: description during the interview because by that point I wasn't 414 00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:41,836 Speaker 1: really sure what my current assistant was up to. I mean, 415 00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 1: how would I know? Her job was to do things 416 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:46,196 Speaker 1: so that I didn't have to do them. So if 417 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:48,436 Speaker 1: I knew what she was doing, she wouldn't be doing 418 00:25:48,436 --> 00:25:53,156 Speaker 1: her job, would she. So Stacy briefed Sarah about practical 419 00:25:53,236 --> 00:25:54,716 Speaker 1: things and much more. 420 00:25:54,836 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 6: Apparently because now I remember that the two pieces of 421 00:25:58,716 --> 00:26:01,236 Speaker 6: advice that she kind of impressed upon me, like tablets 422 00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:06,076 Speaker 6: were respect his privacy, and be nice to his parents. 423 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 1: As it turned out, Sarah was exceedingly to my parents. 424 00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 1: My father thought you just were the bee's knees. He 425 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:16,836 Speaker 1: was like, you were his favorite. You were absolutely his favorite. 426 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:19,916 Speaker 6: I think I told you that strange and wonderful dinner 427 00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:22,996 Speaker 6: that I had just with the two of them, with your. 428 00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 7: Mom and dad. 429 00:26:23,956 --> 00:26:25,396 Speaker 1: What happened? What happened? 430 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:29,436 Speaker 6: Oh, not just that. It was when it was I know, 431 00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:31,596 Speaker 6: New Yorker Festival and you were flying off and I 432 00:26:31,676 --> 00:26:33,396 Speaker 6: just went to see if they needed anything, and I 433 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:34,836 Speaker 6: went to see if they were okay, and they asked 434 00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:37,916 Speaker 6: if I wanted to join them for dinner, And no 435 00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:40,196 Speaker 6: one had told me what you're supposed to do in 436 00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:42,196 Speaker 6: a moment like that, like are you supposed to go 437 00:26:42,236 --> 00:26:44,556 Speaker 6: for dinner with your boss's parents? Are you're absolutely not 438 00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:48,596 Speaker 6: supposed to go for dinner with your boss's parents. So 439 00:26:49,476 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 6: I did and they were just so they were so 440 00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:57,156 Speaker 6: kind to me, Malcolm, and just like very warm and interesting. 441 00:26:57,236 --> 00:26:58,916 Speaker 6: And that was that. That was the time I think 442 00:26:58,956 --> 00:27:01,076 Speaker 6: I wrote you about it. It was when they asked 443 00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:03,676 Speaker 6: the way to ask if we wanted pepper on our soup, 444 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:05,516 Speaker 6: and I just said yes because I thought that's what 445 00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:07,396 Speaker 6: you're supposed to say. And your dad said, I don't know, 446 00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:12,156 Speaker 6: I haven't tried it yet. And it was just it 447 00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:14,196 Speaker 6: just it was like it was brilliant to me that 448 00:27:14,236 --> 00:27:16,476 Speaker 6: you could just I guess it was like he was 449 00:27:16,476 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 6: being a mathematician or a scientist about his soup. But 450 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:24,516 Speaker 6: it was such a nice Oh, that's so love, love 451 00:27:24,596 --> 00:27:25,156 Speaker 6: that I. 452 00:27:25,156 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 1: Missed my father so much. The soup agnostic says, go ahead, 453 00:27:30,236 --> 00:27:32,716 Speaker 1: put pepper in. It's not going to make much difference 454 00:27:32,756 --> 00:27:36,596 Speaker 1: either way. The soup nihilists says, pepper can make a 455 00:27:36,596 --> 00:27:39,196 Speaker 1: great deal of difference. But it is impossible for me 456 00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:41,396 Speaker 1: to find out whether the waiter is offering me pepper 457 00:27:41,676 --> 00:27:44,916 Speaker 1: because the soup leaves the kitchen deliberately under peppered, or 458 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:48,716 Speaker 1: because the restaurant offers pepper as an amenity regardless of 459 00:27:48,756 --> 00:27:53,036 Speaker 1: the pepperiness of its offerings. Sarah took the nihilist position, 460 00:27:53,636 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 1: as would I. Of course I always get the pepper. 461 00:27:56,396 --> 00:27:59,356 Speaker 1: But Graham Gladwell was not a soup nihilist. He was 462 00:27:59,396 --> 00:28:04,236 Speaker 1: a soup empiricist. He tried the soup then considered the pepper, 463 00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:09,076 Speaker 1: but on all other matters he took the same approach 464 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 1: as I do. What do you think I get it 465 00:28:11,276 --> 00:28:16,316 Speaker 1: from One snowy day when we were going to visit friends, 466 00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:19,516 Speaker 1: my father took an off ramp too fast, skid it 467 00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:22,956 Speaker 1: down the embankment, and landed on the on ramp facing 468 00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:26,396 Speaker 1: a wrong direction, whereupon he drove off the on ramp 469 00:28:26,756 --> 00:28:29,276 Speaker 1: onto a road that none of us had ever seen before. 470 00:28:30,796 --> 00:28:33,716 Speaker 1: And then he announced, Oh, this is the way I 471 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:38,836 Speaker 1: wanted to go all along. Did he mean that? Yes, 472 00:28:38,916 --> 00:28:42,156 Speaker 1: he did. He believed that if you were on a 473 00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:45,316 Speaker 1: road for whatever reason, then that's the road you should take. 474 00:28:45,876 --> 00:28:49,836 Speaker 1: If an accountant appears before you hire the accountant, if 475 00:28:49,876 --> 00:28:54,396 Speaker 1: Stacy seems nice, hire Stacy. That is the way Gladwells think. 476 00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:58,916 Speaker 1: This is in fact the subject of my eulogy from 477 00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:01,516 Speaker 1: my father at his funeral a few years ago, which 478 00:29:01,596 --> 00:29:05,316 Speaker 1: was one of those funerals that wasn't exactly funereal in 479 00:29:05,356 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: a sense that there was so much Graham Glable in 480 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:09,756 Speaker 1: the air that about halfway through we are forgot we 481 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:12,956 Speaker 1: were supposed to be grieving. For my part, I got 482 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:14,636 Speaker 1: up and spoke about all the ways in which my 483 00:29:14,676 --> 00:29:18,156 Speaker 1: father would have objected to his own funeral. This has 484 00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:21,996 Speaker 1: been a meticulously planned service so far. My father did 485 00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:25,836 Speaker 1: not believe in planning anything. The only reason anything in 486 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:29,716 Speaker 1: my life's my father's life was planned was because, in 487 00:29:29,756 --> 00:29:35,996 Speaker 1: a spectacularly fortunate failure of due diligence, he married my mother. 488 00:29:39,116 --> 00:29:42,436 Speaker 1: Then I talked about one of my heroes, Albert O. Hirshman, 489 00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:45,996 Speaker 1: who is the true godfather of my kind of nihilism, 490 00:29:46,116 --> 00:29:50,276 Speaker 1: even more than Laurence Peter. Hirshman was an economist and 491 00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:53,516 Speaker 1: one of the towering intellectuals of the twentieth century. He 492 00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:55,796 Speaker 1: helped save the lives of countless Jews in the Second 493 00:29:55,796 --> 00:29:59,716 Speaker 1: World War. Later, he traveled to exotic lands. He was 494 00:29:59,756 --> 00:30:03,116 Speaker 1: a man of action as well as words. His guiding 495 00:30:03,156 --> 00:30:07,396 Speaker 1: principle was always that Hamlet was wrong, and by that 496 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:12,196 Speaker 1: he meant that Hamlet was someone whose doubts made him 497 00:30:12,196 --> 00:30:16,516 Speaker 1: incapable of acting right. Hamlet was frozen. To be or 498 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:19,756 Speaker 1: not to be, that's the question. But Hershman's point was 499 00:30:19,796 --> 00:30:23,156 Speaker 1: that Hamlet had it backwards. That your doubts should free you, 500 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:27,996 Speaker 1: because once you've accepted that you don't know what happens next, 501 00:30:28,516 --> 00:30:31,796 Speaker 1: that you can't predict or plan everything in your life. 502 00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 1: Then you're free to act because what's holding you back? 503 00:30:37,396 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 1: What is there to be afraid of if you've given 504 00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 1: up on the illusion of knowing what could possibly happen. 505 00:30:44,076 --> 00:30:47,116 Speaker 1: I love Hirshman because he reminds me of my father. 506 00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:52,436 Speaker 1: I think my father thought that Hamlet was wrong. He 507 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:55,756 Speaker 1: believed in God even though no mathematical proof exists of 508 00:30:55,836 --> 00:31:00,516 Speaker 1: God's existence. Doubt did not compromise his faith. It was 509 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:04,636 Speaker 1: what gave him freedom to believe. He married my mother 510 00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:08,076 Speaker 1: even though the world told him not to do that. 511 00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:11,956 Speaker 1: He went on walks without knowing where he would end up. 512 00:31:12,356 --> 00:31:14,356 Speaker 1: He never looked at a map. He would just say, 513 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:17,396 Speaker 1: I'm going to follow my nose. He built a greenhouse 514 00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:22,796 Speaker 1: even though he didn't know anything about carpentry. I remember 515 00:31:22,796 --> 00:31:26,756 Speaker 1: once looking out the window as a child, and I 516 00:31:26,796 --> 00:31:31,116 Speaker 1: saw the cat, the house cat, streaking at top speed 517 00:31:31,116 --> 00:31:35,436 Speaker 1: with his ears back, and following the cat, our dog 518 00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:39,156 Speaker 1: at top speed with his ears back, look of terror 519 00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:45,396 Speaker 1: in his eyes. And then Pappy sprinting at top speed 520 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:46,996 Speaker 1: for the safety of the house, and I thought, what 521 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,716 Speaker 1: on earth? And then I saw this huge swarm of 522 00:31:50,836 --> 00:31:56,396 Speaker 1: angry bees. Happy felt the freedom to be a bee keeper, 523 00:31:57,236 --> 00:32:02,876 Speaker 1: even though he didn't really understand how bees worked. I 524 00:32:02,996 --> 00:32:07,076 Speaker 1: like to think that I learned from the best. Hamlet 525 00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:11,876 Speaker 1: never kept bees, but Hamlet never had any fresh honey. 526 00:32:12,676 --> 00:32:16,356 Speaker 1: I'll stop because if my father thought a speaker had 527 00:32:16,356 --> 00:32:18,196 Speaker 1: gone on too long, he would just get up and leave. 528 00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 1: He would actually be taking a walk. At this point, 529 00:32:31,276 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: my hiring nihilism failed just once. It was with the 530 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:38,836 Speaker 1: assistant who came after, Jane. Jane was Sarah's roommate, whom 531 00:32:38,836 --> 00:32:41,436 Speaker 1: I hired because I liked Sarah, and I thought, under 532 00:32:41,476 --> 00:32:44,556 Speaker 1: the transit of property that if Sarah was great, surely 533 00:32:44,596 --> 00:32:47,076 Speaker 1: that meant that Jane would be great too, because one 534 00:32:47,116 --> 00:32:49,236 Speaker 1: of the odds, Sarah doesn't have good taste in roommates. 535 00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:54,076 Speaker 1: And sure enough, Jane was great. Jane turned out to 536 00:32:54,076 --> 00:32:55,916 Speaker 1: be the kind of person who would plan the D 537 00:32:56,036 --> 00:32:58,956 Speaker 1: Day invasion and then check in with Churchill and Roosevelt 538 00:32:58,996 --> 00:33:01,716 Speaker 1: at five on like a Friday and say, do you 539 00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:05,916 Speaker 1: need anything more from me before the weekend. Anyway, Jane 540 00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:08,916 Speaker 1: wanted to move on, and I hired I'm going to 541 00:33:08,956 --> 00:33:14,796 Speaker 1: call Susan. Susan seemed super nice, but she was not 542 00:33:14,836 --> 00:33:17,796 Speaker 1: a good assistant in a span of just a few weeks. 543 00:33:17,836 --> 00:33:22,956 Speaker 1: She made one air after another, some trivial, some major. Then, 544 00:33:23,356 --> 00:33:24,836 Speaker 1: just as I was about to go out on a 545 00:33:24,836 --> 00:33:28,596 Speaker 1: book tour, she announced she was taking another job, leaving 546 00:33:28,636 --> 00:33:33,396 Speaker 1: me in the lurch. I reprimanded her. She knew it 547 00:33:33,436 --> 00:33:38,596 Speaker 1: wasn't working out. She was upset and apologized. I had 548 00:33:38,636 --> 00:33:41,436 Speaker 1: forgotten about the whole incident until in the course of 549 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:44,396 Speaker 1: my forensic analysis of my hiring history, one of my 550 00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:48,116 Speaker 1: old assistants reminded me. So I searched back to my 551 00:33:48,156 --> 00:33:52,396 Speaker 1: old emails and found this an email from me to Susan. 552 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:58,916 Speaker 1: Dear Susan, please don't beat yourself up. Some people are 553 00:33:58,916 --> 00:34:01,396 Speaker 1: good at this kind of work. Some people are not. 554 00:34:01,996 --> 00:34:04,996 Speaker 1: It has no larger significance. It's like how high you 555 00:34:05,036 --> 00:34:07,876 Speaker 1: can jump, or whether you are good at bowling. You 556 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:10,676 Speaker 1: are probably best for more scholarly pursuits in the end, 557 00:34:10,916 --> 00:34:14,036 Speaker 1: which is not a bad thing. I was probably exactly 558 00:34:14,076 --> 00:34:20,356 Speaker 1: the same way at your age. I kind of can't 559 00:34:20,356 --> 00:34:23,996 Speaker 1: believe I wrote that email. It sounds so sweet and understanding, 560 00:34:24,196 --> 00:34:26,036 Speaker 1: But I'm not sweet and understanding, am I? 561 00:34:26,516 --> 00:34:26,636 Speaker 7: No? 562 00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:30,876 Speaker 1: Not really. What I am is a hiring nihilist, and 563 00:34:30,956 --> 00:34:33,876 Speaker 1: the appearance of graciousness is simply one of the wonderful 564 00:34:33,876 --> 00:34:37,636 Speaker 1: side effects of hiring nihilism, because if you believe that 565 00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:41,236 Speaker 1: nothing in someone's performance in one job predicts their future 566 00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:44,956 Speaker 1: performance in another job, if you believe that the whole 567 00:34:44,996 --> 00:34:48,196 Speaker 1: prediction system when it comes to people is just an 568 00:34:48,196 --> 00:34:52,396 Speaker 1: extravagant exercise in self delusion, then you're free to say 569 00:34:52,436 --> 00:34:55,756 Speaker 1: to Susan, it's okay, the fact that you didn't work 570 00:34:55,756 --> 00:35:00,876 Speaker 1: out as my assistant has no larger significance because it doesn't. 571 00:35:01,356 --> 00:35:04,716 Speaker 1: Life's too short. You need an accountant, You meet an accountant, 572 00:35:04,956 --> 00:35:08,556 Speaker 1: hire the accountant, you meet Stacy, and you cancel all 573 00:35:08,596 --> 00:35:12,316 Speaker 1: your other interviews because you realize, what's the point. The 574 00:35:12,396 --> 00:35:16,716 Speaker 1: nihilist believes that people are mysterious and unpredictable, that life 575 00:35:16,796 --> 00:35:19,436 Speaker 1: is a big crapshoot, and at most of the systems 576 00:35:19,436 --> 00:35:21,796 Speaker 1: we put in place are there just to satisfy our 577 00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:26,196 Speaker 1: illusion that we can see into the future. My email 578 00:35:26,276 --> 00:35:29,476 Speaker 1: went on, I'm sorry I was as harsh as I 579 00:35:29,596 --> 00:35:31,996 Speaker 1: was with you. It's just that this is a rather 580 00:35:32,076 --> 00:35:34,916 Speaker 1: stressful time and I have a million things going on. 581 00:35:35,636 --> 00:35:38,796 Speaker 1: But Jacob, I believe is just the kind of anal 582 00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:44,156 Speaker 1: obsessive detail oriented sort who will serve me well? Smiley face. 583 00:35:44,956 --> 00:35:47,916 Speaker 1: So all's well, that ends well, good luck with your 584 00:35:47,916 --> 00:35:57,156 Speaker 1: next job. I wish you all the best. Am wait Jacob, Yes, 585 00:35:57,836 --> 00:36:02,916 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith Susan's successor. Yeah, that's right. Do you remember 586 00:36:02,956 --> 00:36:04,076 Speaker 1: where the interview was? 587 00:36:04,556 --> 00:36:08,036 Speaker 3: Who's at your place? And I remember that you know me, 588 00:36:08,076 --> 00:36:10,396 Speaker 3: I don't really like dress dress up, but I dressed 589 00:36:10,476 --> 00:36:14,156 Speaker 3: up as much as I do. And I specifically remember 590 00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:16,716 Speaker 3: that you were like, you weren't wearing shoes, and I 591 00:36:16,756 --> 00:36:18,236 Speaker 3: think I had to take off my shoes. 592 00:36:18,916 --> 00:36:21,356 Speaker 1: And do you remember what we talked? 593 00:36:21,396 --> 00:36:25,156 Speaker 3: What I asked you about the obviously, the thing that 594 00:36:25,196 --> 00:36:26,516 Speaker 3: always stuck with me is that you asked if I 595 00:36:26,516 --> 00:36:30,356 Speaker 3: could drive stick shift, which I said yes. That was 596 00:36:30,356 --> 00:36:32,196 Speaker 3: the big one. I remember you asked what my parents did, 597 00:36:32,276 --> 00:36:33,436 Speaker 3: which I thought was a good question. 598 00:36:33,996 --> 00:36:36,756 Speaker 1: I loved the fact that your parents were teachers. Those 599 00:36:36,796 --> 00:36:40,956 Speaker 1: two answers settled it for me. Do you remember how 600 00:36:41,036 --> 00:36:42,196 Speaker 1: long this interview was? 601 00:36:42,476 --> 00:36:45,316 Speaker 3: I remember it was at like one and being out 602 00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:46,556 Speaker 3: of there and it was like one twenty and I 603 00:36:46,596 --> 00:36:48,716 Speaker 3: was like, well, that either went really well or really poorly, 604 00:36:48,716 --> 00:36:52,516 Speaker 3: because it's the fastest job interviewer ever had. And that's 605 00:36:52,556 --> 00:36:55,636 Speaker 3: with like five to seven minutes of just probably small 606 00:36:55,676 --> 00:36:57,276 Speaker 3: talk and kind of getting settled in. 607 00:36:57,796 --> 00:37:01,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are three things in DEARB. Two, you drive stick, 608 00:37:01,836 --> 00:37:04,396 Speaker 1: your parents are teachers. And then you said something, and 609 00:37:04,436 --> 00:37:06,716 Speaker 1: you said, but then I'm so anal that I would 610 00:37:06,756 --> 00:37:09,916 Speaker 1: do something something. I was like, Wait, self, admitting to 611 00:37:09,996 --> 00:37:12,316 Speaker 1: be animals is fantastic. This is exactly what I want. 612 00:37:13,996 --> 00:37:16,276 Speaker 3: It's just funny in retrospect because I don't actually think 613 00:37:16,276 --> 00:37:18,716 Speaker 3: I'm that anal. I think I was playing that up. 614 00:37:19,116 --> 00:37:22,636 Speaker 1: I think I was, yeah, but actually but no, no, See, 615 00:37:23,116 --> 00:37:25,436 Speaker 1: if I might defend myself, I am as interested in 616 00:37:25,556 --> 00:37:28,876 Speaker 1: someone who understands that they need to represent themselves as 617 00:37:28,996 --> 00:37:31,316 Speaker 1: anal as I am in someone who is truly anal. 618 00:37:32,116 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 3: Right, right, yeah, you wouldn't actually want me to be 619 00:37:34,516 --> 00:37:34,876 Speaker 3: so yeah? 620 00:37:35,196 --> 00:37:41,556 Speaker 1: No, And how did Jacob work out well for once 621 00:37:41,636 --> 00:37:50,156 Speaker 1: in your life? Listen to the credits. Revisious History is 622 00:37:50,276 --> 00:37:55,356 Speaker 1: produced by Jacob Smith and me La Belle, with Leaving Gusto, 623 00:37:55,676 --> 00:37:59,676 Speaker 1: Eloise Litton and on A. Naim Our editor is Julia Barton. 624 00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:03,796 Speaker 1: Lawn Williams is our engineer. Fact checking by Beth Johnson. 625 00:38:04,116 --> 00:38:08,436 Speaker 1: Original music by Luis Gara. Special thanks to Carly Migliori, 626 00:38:08,556 --> 00:38:13,596 Speaker 1: Heather Fay, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, and l Hafe Jacob Weissberg. 627 00:38:14,396 --> 00:38:19,116 Speaker 1: Revisionist history is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and 628 00:38:19,316 --> 00:38:21,996 Speaker 1: your resident nihilist, Malcolm glad