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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can't protect anything. First thing I want to talk about,

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Speaker 1: honest is a thought of us day because I was

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Speaker 1: on the airplane. There's a dude next to me who

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Speaker 1: wants a beer, but he only wants to beer. Like

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Speaker 1: it's provisional on what beer they have. Okay, sounds like me, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but what is the world coming to. It's like like

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Speaker 1: people like I want a beer, okay, that you decide

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Speaker 1: you want to beer, and it's it's like if you

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Speaker 1: decide you want to beer, it's like you decide you

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Speaker 1: want to beer absent what beer is available, and then

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Speaker 1: you would hone in on now that I'm now that

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Speaker 1: I've just side that I want this beer, which I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have. I want to know what ones I

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Speaker 1: can choose from. But this guy was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I really want a beer. It depends on

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Speaker 1: what beers I can get. And your dead is like

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Speaker 1: driving around somewhere and you're like, man, I love to

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Speaker 1: have a cup of coffee. I'm like, there's a Conico

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Speaker 1: right there, and you're like, yeah, you know, gass Asian coffee.

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Speaker 1: Let's look for a Starbucks. Let's go so far. You

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Speaker 1: can't because he's on an airplane. He can't go look elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: It would be like knee waking up in the morning

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Speaker 1: in a remote area with one gas station and me saying,

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Speaker 1: my god, do I want a cup of coffee? And

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Speaker 1: you're saying the only coffee you could possibly have is

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Speaker 1: from Bob's gas station. To me say like, never mind,

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Speaker 1: I don't want a coffee no way. It's like the world.

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Speaker 1: It's like something's got to give with this beer situation. Yeah. See,

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Speaker 1: for me, it really watered down a cup of coffee anymore.

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Speaker 1: There's certain breakfast joints I don't go to because I

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Speaker 1: got really watered down coffee. So I would not have

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Speaker 1: a cup of coffee rather than not have one at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't, Okay, come on, please in your camp. Yeah no.

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Speaker 1: The other day, in fact, we were, um, we're out

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Speaker 1: in a small town in Montana. We're out specifically for

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Speaker 1: bear hunting, and um, I was like, I want a

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Speaker 1: cup of coffee. The hotel we stayed at, awful Coffee,

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Speaker 1: went to another place awful Coffee. I went to three

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Speaker 1: places awful coffee. Didn't drink any of it, about three cups.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna touch it. Yep. And the first thing

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Speaker 1: I said on the third place, I said, can you

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Speaker 1: make me a good cup of coffee? He's like yeah,

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Speaker 1: he goes back there pours a huge, tall cup of

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Speaker 1: coffee that tastes like cardboard walked out. Can't do it.

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Speaker 1: I'm in that camp. So if you're in a restaurant

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Speaker 1: and you're like, man, a beard sound good for dinner

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Speaker 1: with dinner and then they're like, yeah, you take a

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Speaker 1: look at the menu. If they're like and if all

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Speaker 1: they have is I don't know your you know, beard choices.

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Speaker 1: But let's just say all they have like the big

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Speaker 1: giant macro bruise and would you say, I'll pass? And

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Speaker 1: how cocktail glass of wine? I'll pass because they made

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Speaker 1: too many of those. They made too big of a

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Speaker 1: container of that beer. No, it's the flavor, bro it's

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Speaker 1: carl No, nothing, it's it's so ridiculous, man, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I guess there's times where, you know, for example, I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about working outside on a real hot day the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, all right, so I'm thinking, you know,

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Speaker 1: like biling. Hey, al right, you're out throwing bails and

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Speaker 1: you're sweaty and dirty and you got you got hay

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Speaker 1: and like every crevice of your body and your clothing

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Speaker 1: and like, man, a brew at the end of this

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Speaker 1: day would be like heaven, you know, I could go

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Speaker 1: for one. Uh, in that circumstance, you pull out like

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to name brands, but any brand my

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Speaker 1: least favorite beer, if it's cold and you're like, here

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Speaker 1: you go, I'm gonna I'm gonna be very grateful for that.

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Speaker 1: On the flip side, there are times where it's like

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Speaker 1: I could go for a beer if there's the right beer,

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Speaker 1: the right beer, and if it's not there, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: good without. So I don't have a strong opinion. I

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Speaker 1: think it's more contextual, and I'd say on the airplane,

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Speaker 1: you're kind of a captive audience, and depending on what

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Speaker 1: kind of day you've had, maybe you're in Camp A

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Speaker 1: or maybe you're in Camp BE. That is why I

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Speaker 1: was reserving my contribution here. Okay, On a somewhat related note,

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Speaker 1: I have multiple times, I have multiple times said that

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Speaker 1: I wanted that a great name for a bar would

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Speaker 1: be the Wet spot. Turns out that a lot of

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Speaker 1: guys rolled in, and there are already multiple wet spots

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Speaker 1: around the country. There's a wet spot bar at mile

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Speaker 1: marker on the Highway forty nine and North Dakota, and

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Speaker 1: there's a wet spot Barron, Texas. So I know what

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Speaker 1: the moral of that story is. You might go check

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Speaker 1: him out. You might have to go check him out.

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Speaker 1: And just because you have a good idea and you

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Speaker 1: think it was yours, oftentimes it's not. Um pete munich

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Speaker 1: are you are? You? Can you guys talk about your

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Speaker 1: new thing you're making you guess still be all like

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Speaker 1: a squirrelly about it? No, we can talk about a

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Speaker 1: couple of things, talking about tent. Yeah, okay, so now

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Speaker 1: you can say that because for a long time you've

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Speaker 1: been like like tippy toey No, not a tent. Oh,

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Speaker 1: there's there's other things tippy toe about now, but you've tiptoed.

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Speaker 1: You've like now tippy toe about but you've tiptoed. You're

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Speaker 1: not tiptoey about how you guys are gonna make a

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Speaker 1: new tent. Correct tent is available for preorder right now

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Speaker 1: and there's shipping in a month. There on the way,

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Speaker 1: so genuine stone glacier tent. Tell me, um, tell me

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Speaker 1: what's awesome about? When were you last on with us

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Speaker 1: A long time ago? No, no, not too long a

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Speaker 1: year ago with Roscoe, because then you guys will be

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Speaker 1: in tiptoey. You were like, let's just say it might

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Speaker 1: be a thing to put in a backpack. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of things on the drawing table right now that

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Speaker 1: go in a backpack and out of a backpack. Do

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Speaker 1: you have to be tiptoey or not? Um about a

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Speaker 1: couple of things. Yeah, we're not. We're there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of irons in the fire, some things on the drawing

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Speaker 1: board that we're not publicly talking about yet. But the

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Speaker 1: tent is uh is ready to go. What's awesome about

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Speaker 1: the tent? Strength to weight ratio, super lightweight tent and

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Speaker 1: super strong um generously sized two man four season tent.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure everybody in this room spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time in a tent and being in a small

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Speaker 1: one not too much fun. So it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: generously sized genuine two man tent. Dual vestibules, big vestibules.

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Speaker 1: Four pounds four rounds is minimum trail weight? Was it

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Speaker 1: way like all in four pounds? Tell bounces sub five

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Speaker 1: pound four season tent and uh when it's all scrunched

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Speaker 1: up like how big? Is it pretty typical looking tent stuff?

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Speaker 1: Sack mm hmmm. I don't know. It's acting like he's

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Speaker 1: hold a loaf of bread right now. Yeah, big loaf

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Speaker 1: of bread. But there's only one and if I was

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Speaker 1: you guys, i'd give one to me. Yeah you got

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Speaker 1: you got one comment? Okay? Um, but people can go

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Speaker 1: on and order it right now. Do you feel that

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Speaker 1: when you look at you, like, wow, it's different than

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Speaker 1: most tense Yeah. There's a couple of things I really

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Speaker 1: like about it. Um, I'm six ft two. Most people

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Speaker 1: are home with their tall guys too, so I do

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Speaker 1: genuinely like the size of the tent um. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of canopy space. When you sit up in it,

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Speaker 1: You're not crowded by nylon. There's a bit of space

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Speaker 1: around your head that helps with condensation and moisture. It's

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Speaker 1: a light color nylon. I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: in Hilliberg tense. Hilliberg's are notoriously dark green nylon, which

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Speaker 1: can create a bit of like a dark cave vibe

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Speaker 1: on day seven of a bit of a terrarium inside

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Speaker 1: area like a hothouse. Yep. So we have white and

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Speaker 1: gray nylons which a lot of natural light comes through.

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Speaker 1: Stuff I didn't think about before I was using this tent,

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Speaker 1: but it actually makes a really big difference. Um as

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Speaker 1: far as just can't mark. That's a good point that

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Speaker 1: I never thought of. Is I thought of, like how

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Speaker 1: much the dark ones can just like you're going there

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the day to grab something, You're like,

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Speaker 1: you know, because like what what happens inside there? But

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Speaker 1: I never thought about light transmission. Yeah, you spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time in a tent on some of these hunts,

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Speaker 1: and it's important be comfortable in there. So yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: a length is key for longer people because when you

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Speaker 1: get in there and you sleep bag is touching the

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Speaker 1: end of that tent, may you wake up with wet cold,

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Speaker 1: your feet are wet, and your hat's wet. Right, So

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Speaker 1: it's got a nice garage on it. What do you

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Speaker 1: mean vestibule, Yeah, super big vestibules, And I love them

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Speaker 1: because when your backpack hunting and you have a rifle

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Speaker 1: backpack boots, vestibules are super important, and having a generously

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Speaker 1: sized one that all of your stuff can comfortably fit

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Speaker 1: in is really nice to have and not where you

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Speaker 1: craming in there and the fabrics laying on it all

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Speaker 1: correct usual last year on your sheep hunt. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: been using it for about a year now. Yep, put

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Speaker 1: a lot of miles on it. These ten is pretty pricey.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing five, don't. They're cheaper than we were not

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Speaker 1: allowed to use that word. It's less expensive than Pete

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Speaker 1: went off the competition. Pete went off the went wild

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Speaker 1: there And I'm not allowed to use a couple of adjectives.

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Speaker 1: It's the hue glacier that's one of them. That's a

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Speaker 1: good one not to use. Um, you were just out

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Speaker 1: bear hunting with the buddy years can can? I can

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Speaker 1: I talk? I'm not gonna give away your spot, but

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Speaker 1: we used to do endless amounts of that. Is it

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Speaker 1: fair to say? You guys are out hike and closed

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Speaker 1: logging roads? Correct? And when they unclosed logging roads, we

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Speaker 1: just walk mild I mean miles of those things. But

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Speaker 1: it works right because when they stabilize those picture if

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Speaker 1: you will in your mind's eye, listener a logging road.

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Speaker 1: It's like a two track through the woods, through the

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Speaker 1: mountains and where it switched backs up hills. Uh, you

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Speaker 1: have an erosion issue, can have an erosion issue along

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Speaker 1: some of these things. And so they grade out, they

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Speaker 1: grade out the banks, and they go to stabilize the

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Speaker 1: banks with certain types of vegetation. And one of the

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Speaker 1: types of vegetation that they stabilize a lot of the

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Speaker 1: banks with as a grass called smooth brown grass. And

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Speaker 1: when that comes up in the spring, it's just like

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Speaker 1: what the doctor ordered for bears. They love it. You

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Speaker 1: find their ships and it's just as like greasy. It's

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Speaker 1: like black grease. Picture taking a ball of grass and

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Speaker 1: then dipping it in the thickest, nastiest black grease. And

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Speaker 1: those are the droppings you find because when they come

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Speaker 1: out of hibernation or eating all that grass to sort

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Speaker 1: of get their digestive system cleared out. Yeah, I'm telling

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Speaker 1: Carlos like a something he doesn't lovest, right, Yeah, you are,

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Speaker 1: you are. And they love that smooth brown brass. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And we've talked, you know, about the adaptability of their diet,

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Speaker 1: how they have this kind of menu that shifts over

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Speaker 1: the course of the year, and that initial boost in

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Speaker 1: productivity that comes with the spring is something not unique

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Speaker 1: to American black bears either. Um, the work I did

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Speaker 1: with Asiatic black bears the same kind of thing. They

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Speaker 1: get that early flush of really nutrient rich spring forage

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Speaker 1: in the form of vegge. And for people who don't

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Speaker 1: spend a lot of time thinking about bears or around bears,

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Speaker 1: you know, you you kind of picture the classic like

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Speaker 1: bear on the stream bank eating a fish or something

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Speaker 1: like that, But you don't envision a bear that's almost

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Speaker 1: in like col mode, just grazing, just sitting there like

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Speaker 1: like a college, just taking mouthful after mouthful of that grass.

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Speaker 1: People have ideas of bears, Like the idea that people

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Speaker 1: have of bears is like something usually that happens to

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Speaker 1: the bear now and then like yes, now and then

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Speaker 1: that bear catches the salmon. Well, that bear does a

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Speaker 1: lot of it's walking in the woods eating vegetation. Uh

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Speaker 1: So the bear you got, like I would say, over

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Speaker 1: the years, we had a walking clothes which were called

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Speaker 1: walking closers, probably a ratio of I bet we walked

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Speaker 1: a hundred miles of closers per bear that we got.

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Speaker 1: Though you would know the spots of the bears used

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Speaker 1: oftentimes to be like they're coming down because they're coming

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Speaker 1: out of the snow and they're coming down drainages. So

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Speaker 1: you'd find concentrations of like they're following drainages down where

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Speaker 1: those drainages would have to be like a culvert going

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Speaker 1: over the road, and the would be like a bunch

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Speaker 1: of stabilized areas, and then you find grass patch and

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Speaker 1: then you'd find droppings on one of those in the

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Speaker 1: next year that be like droppings there, And there's like

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Speaker 1: certain spots they go. How many miles did you guys

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Speaker 1: walk to find one bear? About half of one? Really? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we shot this is right away. Yeah, we got pretty

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Speaker 1: lucky that night. We hunted. I hunting bears pretty much

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Speaker 1: every day in bear season, and we we knew where

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Speaker 1: we were going. We were going to a good spot.

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Speaker 1: And uh we started our hike down the closed road

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Speaker 1: and I was telling you earlier that there were morals

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Speaker 1: growing in the road and that was a good indicator

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Speaker 1: that no one had been out. Yeah, it's really good spot.

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Speaker 1: Put it in the show notes. He was picked a

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Speaker 1: couple of Morrel's walking out throad like nobody's been up here.

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Speaker 1: That's a good sign. And then the cats started. Oh

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Speaker 1: so you knew there. It was just blanketed on the

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Speaker 1: I mean you couldn't. You couldn't walk thirty yards without

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Speaker 1: finding a pile of bear scat. And so you just

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Speaker 1: have this feeling like, well, there, there are there here,

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Speaker 1: They're definitely there's definitely a bear or more within a

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Speaker 1: short distance of us. And yeah, I just came around

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Speaker 1: one of the first turns in the road. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: made an eventually made like a conscious decision to stop

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Speaker 1: hunting closers two boring. I just felt like we weren't

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Speaker 1: like really learning anything, weren't really learning anything, and then

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Speaker 1: started hunting avalanche slides and other kind of stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say that's my preferred method as well, to

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Speaker 1: hunt them in the mountains and avalanche slides and play

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Speaker 1: the spot in stock game. Did you notice how we'll

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Speaker 1: move on from that for a minute. You know what

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Speaker 1: I've never asked you about, Michelle. I just noticed, can

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Speaker 1: I ask you about what's on your wrist? Like take

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Speaker 1: a left turns out that means no, not well kind

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Speaker 1: of symbolically in a way, Um, it's a broken arrow,

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Speaker 1: it's a brand of a ranch. I was really young

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Speaker 1: when I did this. It's a brand of a ranch

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Speaker 1: that kind of signified my transition out of northern California.

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Speaker 1: I left my life and my career there and was like,

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Speaker 1: I want to go Berienced Wyoming, So moved to Wyoming.

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Speaker 1: Side Unseen worked at this ranch, had an amazing Yeah

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Speaker 1: it's um. That was their original brand from nineteen o two.

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Speaker 1: It was the second oldest dude ranch in the country,

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Speaker 1: and it was just kind of a big life shift moment.

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Speaker 1: And you know, why didn't you brand the brand right? Maybe? Um? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: no real answer for that one, but yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a little misperceived and left turn, but kind of symbolic right,

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Speaker 1: super left, super right wing and the sharp left. Did

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Speaker 1: you notice how I used the word squirrely earlier? I did? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I missus. The guy actually wrote in to clarify a

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Speaker 1: point about he had a couple of points who wanted

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Speaker 1: to clarify. Um. Two are just observations that you can

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Speaker 1: feel free to comment on. One is that he says,

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Speaker 1: I'm missing an important distinction between squirrely and western. Mean,

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Speaker 1: when someone says things got pretty western or thing he's

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Speaker 1: got squirrely. Okay, I was arguing that there's sort of

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Speaker 1: one and the same. He's saying absolutely not. He says

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Speaker 1: Western is distinct and that it implies a sense of

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Speaker 1: physical danger or even violence, and squirrely lacks this. Says,

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Speaker 1: squirrely simply means movements or actions that are erratic or

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Speaker 1: without obvious direction. Western is more sinister. For example, the

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Speaker 1: arrow has shot squirrel, he's using in the sentence, the

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Speaker 1: arrow has shot squirrelly ever since Johanna has stepped on it.

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Speaker 1: Versus things at the Dirty Shame Saloon got a little

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Speaker 1: Western when Cal made a pass at that logger's girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: She says, as a writer, you should know that there

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Speaker 1: is a nuance here that you need to be aware of.

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Speaker 1: I think you hit the nail on the head. I

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Speaker 1: think the the element of the chance of physical danger

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Speaker 1: is what makes things western. If I was in a

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Speaker 1: bar and the next I said, man, things got a

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Speaker 1: little squirrel in that bar, you wouldn't think that. I'm no,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really doesn't work. It doesn't mean that someone

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Speaker 1: got no fight broke out, No, yeah, just got squirrely.

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Speaker 1: Another point he has is he thinks, oh you know

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Speaker 1: what I forgot? This has ben long you know, Ben Long,

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Speaker 1: you know um. Ben Long also says he thinks that

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Speaker 1: the use of the phrase grand slam beyond baseball came

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Speaker 1: from a guy like grand slam and hunting stuff like

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Speaker 1: the turkey Grand slam, sheep sheep grand slam. Um was

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Speaker 1: really the only too like really recognized, no, really recognized.

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Speaker 1: But it's a dear one. Yeah, I want to start

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Speaker 1: a squirrel grand slam. I want to talk about the

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Speaker 1: world the words squirrely, just real quick here because your

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Speaker 1: way back on that. Just go ahead there with me.

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Speaker 1: But when you're meandering through a nice grow oaks, you

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Speaker 1: might be like, man, looks looking pretty Yeah, if someone

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Speaker 1: says that to me, I don't think that things that

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Speaker 1: someone's gonna come up and sucker punched me in the

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Speaker 1: side of the face. I think that, uh yeah, just

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Speaker 1: make it sure we're covering the applications of these could

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Speaker 1: be down in the area and be like, it looks

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Speaker 1: very western down here, meaning that it evokes the West,

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Speaker 1: so grand sol Fritz of the Boone and Crockett Club

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Speaker 1: used grant that he thinks the earliest used to grand

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Speaker 1: slam for hunting. Boone and Crocket Club. He used to

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Speaker 1: describe the fort to described to killing the four varieties

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Speaker 1: of North American wild sheep recognized by BNC records, but

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Speaker 1: which are doll sheep, stone sheep, rocky, mountain, bighorn, desert

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Speaker 1: bighorn um. It's said that he later regretted coining the phrase,

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Speaker 1: and Ben Long editorializes here and he says, I think

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Speaker 1: that if he were alive today, he would regret it

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Speaker 1: even more. I don't know about that, because like as

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Speaker 1: a proud turkey slam holder, I can never remember what

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Speaker 1: kind of slam I had, slam holder, why do you

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Speaker 1: think he would regret he doesn't. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why Ben. I don't know why Ben Long

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Speaker 1: fields that Grand sol Fritz would regret it today. He

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Speaker 1: must be referring to why he regretted in the first place,

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Speaker 1: because I think that he feels that we guess on

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Speaker 1: my part would be a guess would be that it

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Speaker 1: would be like it's like the golf if occation of hunting.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. There's a strong argument to be made that

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Speaker 1: a lot of conservation dollars are raised for wild cheap

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Speaker 1: conservation because this grand slam exists and it's something obtainable

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Speaker 1: that these affluent guys can go after Without the Grand Slam,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there would be as much interest in

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Speaker 1: collecting all four of these species and subsequently raising all

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Speaker 1: this money for conservation. Yeah, there's some dinky heart of

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Speaker 1: my brain that knowing that, um you know, uh, knowing

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Speaker 1: that were I to go to Guatemala or southern Yucatan

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Speaker 1: Peninsula and go out in the jungle there and find

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Speaker 1: an oscillated turkey, knowing that that would make me a

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Speaker 1: World Slam turkey holder, like that that that idea of

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Speaker 1: resting my head somewhere I was like and added benefit

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Speaker 1: would be that I would become a I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: I'm almost half joking, but I'm not. And I think

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Speaker 1: that the squirrel Slam is interesting because I don't think

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Speaker 1: people I think it would help promote the squirrel because

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Speaker 1: I don't think people realize how many damn squirrels there are.

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Speaker 1: Who would you include in this squirrel Slam. I'd put

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Speaker 1: a pine squirrel in there. I'd put a gray squirrel

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Speaker 1: in there, eastern and western with color phases. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I would put a black face, black face

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Speaker 1: gray squirrel in their eastern Western gray squirrel black phase fox.

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Speaker 1: Put the fox squirrel in there. You can't put the

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Speaker 1: del marv a squirrel, right, Abert. I would put a

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Speaker 1: it's in there, damn sure. True would be all the

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Speaker 1: tree squirrels because it's not e s. It's not an

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Speaker 1: e s, a listed species anymore. But it's far from being.

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Speaker 1: It's far. It's it's recovered, beyond threatened. But it's it's

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Speaker 1: not a there's not honible numbers of you know how

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Speaker 1: you get a mountain goat slam shoot one. It's both

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Speaker 1: grand superan world. Right. Um, he's got a question though, well,

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Speaker 1: listening to the show, Oh it's cool. So he's listening

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Speaker 1: to the show and cooking what he describes as a

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Speaker 1: freezer fossil. There was some pronged warm meat that had

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Speaker 1: been a bottom of this freezer for quite some time,

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Speaker 1: maybe less than a decade, maybe not any tips for

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Speaker 1: cooking freezer fossils. Is there a point which freezer fossils

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Speaker 1: should be discarded? There's it's like my input on that.

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Speaker 1: It's like that's something should really try to avoid having happened.

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Speaker 1: Your brother would say no, my brother would eat it.

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Speaker 1: I would eat it. I guess it somehow became unwrapped,

383
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Speaker 1: and it became unwrapped, and slowly um just turned to

384
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Speaker 1: like that white freezer burn, freezer burn, and it yeah,

385
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Speaker 1: just you're kind of like you you're it's sort of

386
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Speaker 1: becomes uh, it sort of becomes freeze driving over time.

387
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Speaker 1: I've had six year old elk though that you when

388
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Speaker 1: we served it, you couldn't tell. It's amazing. That's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons I kind of quit putting dates. I

390
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Speaker 1: don't usually date it sucks, I was remember anyways, Like

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Speaker 1: I kind of like know what it is and how

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Speaker 1: it looked, and you know, just like the idiosyncrasies of

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Speaker 1: the marker used and the animal. I just kind of

394
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Speaker 1: have a sense. The reason like to put dates on

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Speaker 1: it is not only my wife always seeing the dates,

396
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Speaker 1: because if it's two thousand seventeen somethings two thousand fifteen, Like,

397
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Speaker 1: why invite the scrutiny. There's no difference. She's not gonna know,

398
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: but in never she's gonna look like, right, that seems odd.

399
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Speaker 1: So I don't even put dates on that. And I

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Speaker 1: don't need to hear about it or have anyone noticed

401
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: about it because there's no difference anyway. So why like

402
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: open it up to discussion. It's like a thing that

403
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: happens in marriage. I think if you start doing those

404
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: things like like, it just isn't worth my time explaining it,

405
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: Like why even why even invite the question? There's nothing

406
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 1: to hide, but why invite the scrutiny. I'm still gonna

407
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: keep dating. Yeah, there's lots just like it in my

408
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: head to know that last year's meets going out, new

409
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: fresh meats coming in, yea. But I still do the

410
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: same thing. But I do it. Here's the other things.

411
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: I have two freezers, so when it's in my garage freezer,

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Speaker 1: it's on standby, it's not in the run. If it's

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen freezer, then everyone that knows everyone knows

414
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Speaker 1: that that's what you're supposed to eat. Only I go

415
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Speaker 1: down into the main freezer and I constantly move stuff

416
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Speaker 1: into the running. So I'm sort of sequencing it anyway.

417
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: But the minute I put dates on there, people are

418
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Speaker 1: gonna go in there and they're gonna see dates and

419
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: shy away from dates that they feel to be outdated.

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Speaker 1: Good strategy, you follow me um quick news tidbit or

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Speaker 1: if Carl has anything to say about this, you're talking Wyoming. Mhmm,

422
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Speaker 1: chrisly Bears Wyoming. I was guessing that's where you're going

423
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: because that's so fresh. Okay, No, what are you talking about?

424
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: But we can talk about that. They voted on it,

425
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: just they tags you're coming up. They're still doing the

426
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: one female quota though, right, I've got the details. I

427
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: can pull that up while you ask the other question. No,

428
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: this isn't a question. This is just a news thing

429
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: that that's interesting. So the Interior Department UM under Secretary

430
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 1: Zinchie kind of making a cool move where they are

431
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: opening up more than two forty eight thousand acres two

432
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing that were previously unavailable for hunting and fishing.

433
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: So this has taken like thirty units of the National

434
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: Wildlife Refuge System acreages in twenty two states are going

435
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: to be expanded to allow hunting and fishing access. So

436
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 1: it brings the number of refugees, the number of refuges

437
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: open to public hunting to three seventy seven and the

438
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: number of refugees available for public fishing to three and twelve,

439
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 1: which is cool, increasing hunting and fishing opportunities in the

440
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: refuge system. What's interesting about that, maybe it's just it's

441
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: got to be a function of the opportunities available. But

442
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: I was expecting the fishing opportunity to be higher than

443
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: the hunting opportunity when you started going down that pack.

444
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: When I was talking to my brother who's a federal

445
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: who works at a federal land management agency, he was

446
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: he that was the first thing he It was like,

447
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: how could there be that are on the same wave

448
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: and I and I thought, well, maybe just has to

449
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: do with like availability kind of land. Yeah, especially in

450
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: the dry West, you know, there's not a lot of availability.

451
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: But again, you think of refuges, right, and maybe this

452
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: is just a Midwestern bias. I think waterfowl. I associate

453
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: the idea of a refuge being kind of a wet well.

454
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: Their symbol is the Canada goose right on for the system,

455
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: I thought, or what was the bird on a Michelle?

456
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: What's the bird on a The National Wildlife Refuge was

457
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: their icon. It's a Canada goose, right Yeah, sure that

458
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: was a swan or something. It's one of it too.

459
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: It's a long neck. It's a sweet logo. So I

460
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 1: got a flat back last night. Hopefully it's either way

461
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: that I think. Hopefully that's a Canada goose. Right, it's Canada. Um.

462
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: What's cool about um the proposal? Right now? The status

463
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: is folks can actually weigh in on it. Um. Well,

464
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: what we actually have an article up on the mediator

465
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: dot com period and folks can go to the link

466
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: that we're linking out to you, put in the docket

467
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: number and voice their public support. Sweet, and I'll just

468
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: give you a couple of quick quick stats on this

469
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: development in Wyoming. So if we've got it right, Idaho

470
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: also plans to have a hunt, but it's for basically

471
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: Idaho is having a symbolic thing where they're exercising their

472
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: their exercising their management. Yes, in Montana, my understanding is

473
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: kind of sitting back and waiting, knowing it's a contentious top. Yeah,

474
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: I think that I think that they're reluctant to step

475
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: into the reluctant to step into the into the fray,

476
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: into the fray. Wyoming, on the other hand, can I

477
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: real quick? So uh, I'm trying to think of how

478
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: deep I want to go on this. At the time

479
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: of European contact that there were you know, you had

480
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: grizzly bears ranged from I don't know, like roughly the Meridian,

481
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit west hand from Meridian, so range

482
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: from portions of the Great Plains all the way to

483
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 1: the Pacific Coast. UH. They were from through habitat destruction, poisoning, um,

484
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: unregulated slaughter, conflicts with sheep grazing, cattle grazing, every bad

485
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: thing that could happen to a species. They were eliminated

486
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: across the bulk of their range and existed only in

487
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: a few wilderness strongholds in Wyoming, Montana. UM. They were

488
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: when the Endangered Species Act came into play. When President

489
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon signed in the sign the Endangered Species Act.

490
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: In the law UH, the grizzly bears listed in the

491
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: lower forty eight the grizzly bears listed at as an

492
00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: endangered species. UM. Later manager wildlife managers kind of hit

493
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: on this idea that we would instead of looking at

494
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: the grizzly across the entirety of it of its historic range,

495
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: we would identify distinct population segments and sort of manage

496
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 1: bears according to these habitat pieces that could possibly hold bears.

497
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: Because bears and humans are grizzly bear, particularly grizzly bears

498
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: and humans come into conflict, and so there's a lot

499
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: of areas where we're never gonna have them, like Golden Gate. Uh,

500
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: Golden Gate Park in San Francisco is grizzly bear country.

501
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: It will not We will not be able to recover

502
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: grizzlies in Golden Gate Park. We will not be able

503
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: to recover grizzlies in downtown San Francisco. So we look

504
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: at like where can we recover grizzlies? Where do we

505
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: have populations? Now, we create these distinct population segments, and

506
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: what we later realize, what later came to be, is

507
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: that you could declare certain population segments as recovered and

508
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: removed them from Endangered Species Act protection and then shift

509
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: your focus on recovering other populations um that that still

510
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: need assistance. So if anyone of the follows the news

511
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: on grizzly bears, it wasn't too long ago. The Greater

512
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: what's called the g y E or Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem,

513
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: which is a chunk of land the size of Indiana,

514
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: UM that population segment of grizzly bears were delisted because

515
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: they had reached recovery objectives. You know, twelve years ago

516
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: or more years ago, they released they hit recovery objectives.

517
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: So long time ago people look at what would it

518
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: looked like to recover bears in this area, and we

519
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: came up with ideas of how many, how many females,

520
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: total numbers of bears, all kinds of things. We hit

521
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: that point. So then the US Fish and Wildlife Service

522
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: that was in charge of managing the bears are recommended

523
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: that the bears be delisted and handed back to state management.

524
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: And so now the states that have the states that

525
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: are within the g I, which would be small portions

526
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: of uh small portion of Idaho, Chunka, Montana, pretty big Chunka, Wyoming,

527
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: now have the legal authority and legal right to manage

528
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: the bears as a c fit. And they are going

529
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: to are toying with the idea, some more than others,

530
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: of allowing a very limited hunting opportunities for these bears,

531
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: particularly with with kind of the focus of it being

532
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: um focusing efforts on areas where you would be like

533
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: reducing conflict between the bears and livestock, but still with

534
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: still with the recovery objective of growing bear populations in

535
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: other areas so that you do listen the greater also

536
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: an ecosystem for instance, doesn't mean anything with to do

537
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: with current management practices of bears, and like the Cabinet

538
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: Act Northern Cascades, I don't know. So with all that said, Carl,

539
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: yeah you cooled all that. I'm cool with all that.

540
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, this is one of those

541
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: issues that is going to evoke strong emotions in the

542
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: non hunting public. But it really is a glowing success

543
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: story when you have that transition of the management of

544
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: a listed species result in the removal of said species

545
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: from protection under es A, and have that management returned

546
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: to the state, and it's being driven by the scientific

547
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: information that justifies the decision to delist. Um. Whether you're

548
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: somebody who is a okay with having grizzly bears hunted

549
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: or not, you have to acknowledge that there's a conservation

550
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: success story to be told here. And also, I think

551
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: a story that warrants some morning, you know, the fact

552
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: that we had historically so much more robust populations in

553
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: such a such a massive distribution spatially. You know, I

554
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in New Mexico's where I

555
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: live now. Historically a lot of my favorite places in

556
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: New Mexico to hunt and fish were grizzly habitat and

557
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: they are not there now. Um. Whether or not they'd

558
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: ever return is an interesting thing to debate and philosophies about.

559
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: But um per personally, I hope so yeah, I share that.

560
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: You know, I've been spent a lot of time in

561
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: the HeLa lately. I just had a great nine day

562
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: family trip chasing turkeys down in the HeLa. And Um,

563
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: I was reading this book Black Range Tales that covers

564
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: a lot of history of the Southwest, and it wasn't

565
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: that long ago. You're talking like the eighteen sixties eighteen seventies,

566
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: and these miners and market hunters who were living in

567
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: that country are bumping in. They call them silver tips.

568
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: That was the terminology. You know. They had this um

569
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: coloration kind of the silver tip guard heres um. And

570
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: it was an animal. You know, the conflict was very real,

571
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: and it's an animal that understandably you know, it's struck

572
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: fear in the heart of these miners. But Um, I

573
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: share your perception about something missing from the experience when

574
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: you know that animal that historically existed on landscape is

575
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: no longer there. Um. But I also acknowledge my attitude

576
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 1: about you know, having my my wife and her friend

577
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: um out turkey hunting together in that landscape with grizzlies,

578
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: I might feel a little bit differently about it, you know,

579
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: understand on their own. I understand those fears, and I

580
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: think there's many people who would agree that we should

581
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: recover the bears an all suitable habitat. The details most

582
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: everyone I hang out with would say like, yeah, man,

583
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: I agree we should recover grizzlies and all suitable habitat.

584
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: And then the minute where things would start to fall apart,

585
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: what I would say is like, okay, let's all define

586
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: suitable habitat. So in my back well, you know, but

587
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 1: but even uh. And this was like another surprise move,

588
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 1: a surprise move. Uh. Interior Secretary Zincy came to Seattle

589
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: and announced his support for recovering grizzly bears in the

590
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: Northern Cascades, which was surprised to me, but not as

591
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: surprising if probably was the cattle ranchers up there. I

592
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 1: thought it was like, I'm all for it, man, um,

593
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: so I'm I'm all There's like I have like a

594
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: dual pronged approach in thinking about grizzlies. I'd like to

595
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: see grizzies recovered in suitable habitat, and once the recovery

596
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: objectives are met, I like to see them delisted in

597
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: the hand of the state management and some people that

598
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: can't get all these ideas in their heads at once.

599
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: But I'm playing like I'm thinking about it in the

600
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: terms of I'm thinking about it in terms of like

601
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: the long game of where I think things should settle out.

602
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: And to your point, this definition of suitable habitat, I

603
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: think there's there's a really relevant nexus here with respect

604
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: to the the upcoming hunts both in ho in Wyoming Um.

605
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: Thinking about suitable habitat in the context of social acceptance

606
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: and having the ability to target hunting pressure in places

607
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: that are prone to conflict with the species, I think

608
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: is one of those management tools that will pave the

609
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: way towards social acceptance and having more places on the

610
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: landscape where we can strike that balance between your kind

611
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: of approach of this definition of ecological suitable habitat social

612
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: suitable habitat. I think hunting has the potential to be

613
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: a really critical ingredient in that mix and all of

614
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: creating social acceptance because because for people who are living

615
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: in these locations and whose lives are impacted by these things.

616
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: They're experiencing it very differently than you are from say,

617
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: Golden Gate Park totally. And you're talking about the opportunity

618
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: to manage any very surgical, precise fashion. Right, It's not

619
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: like you're gonna have a whole bunch of tags available

620
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: and a bunch of people out on the land escape.

621
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: You're gonna be able to issue tags and target hunting

622
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: pressure in a way that is very focused in places

623
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: that are prone to that kind of conflict. So I

624
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: think there's you know, there's a real tension and a

625
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: lot of these natural resources management issues um between what

626
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: the public would like to see in the places where

627
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: they're actually directly interacting with the animal versus what the

628
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: public would like to see happen from AFAR and the

629
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: ability for local managers to be able to make decisions

630
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: that address the concerns of the local constituents who have

631
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: to coexist with that species day in and day out.

632
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the critical elements of being

633
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: able to talk about a broader recovery beyond where they

634
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: currently are and where they currently are. So that being said,

635
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 1: here a couple of details on the Wyoming hunt. Under

636
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: the Wyoming proposal, you've got the potential for up to

637
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: one female and ten male grizzlies killed this fall inside

638
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: the states section of federally designated demographic monitoring area, so

639
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: they'd have a cap at at one female, ten males, well,

640
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: one female, everything ends, that's right, and and that's similar

641
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: to other states where you have UM like in New Mexico,

642
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: for example, most of the units have unlimited hunting opportunity

643
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: up until the quotas met, and it's the hunter's responsibility

644
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: to keep tabs on where we are with respect to

645
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: the the total um cap and also the female cap.

646
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: So if either of those are reached, boom the season closes.

647
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: And then outside of that demographic monitoring area there's the

648
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: potential for another twelve grizzlies to be taken, and those

649
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: could be male or female. So they're being really careful,

650
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: very very conservative hunt inside that designated portion and then

651
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,919
Speaker 1: beyond that, which again this would be the area where

652
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: the bears are starting to expand out beyond kind of

653
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: that core prime habitat, i e. The places where there's

654
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: more likelihood for conflict with humans. Those places you've got

655
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: more flexibility, so a similar number of bears twelve bears,

656
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: but they could be male or female. So that's the

657
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: plan in the season is set to start September one,

658
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: and you know, again getting back to the different values

659
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: that people have around wildlife. UM, I don't see it

660
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: as being unreasonable for somebody who lives far far away

661
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: from Montana two have some consternation about it hunt like

662
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: this happening. No, it's not surprising to me. I think

663
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: there's a there's a ton of perspectives on it that

664
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: are all not surprising to me. Um. And I think

665
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 1: that if you're like completely removed from it, you might

666
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: look and just if you're completely removed from it and

667
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: you just know the bear from looking at calendars and

668
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: stuff and and and social media pictures and you don't

669
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: you don't have like three hours to go take a

670
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: look at like the history of this whole thing. Absolutely

671
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: you're gonna it can be like what Yeah, And that's

672
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: why I think that's why I think the biggest talking

673
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: point here if if if people have an opportunity to

674
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: communicate one thing to someone who will listen to him

675
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: for ten seconds, it's that the reason these hunts are

676
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: being opened up is a conservation success story. The species

677
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: has rebounded, at least in this small portion of its

678
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: historic range to the point that the states are able

679
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: to manage it guided by sound population ecology, and they're

680
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: going to be able to have a sustainable hunt that

681
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: helps address some of these conflict concerns. But there's not

682
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: anybody who works for these state agencies who's not passionate

683
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: about the recovery of the species. I mean, you're not

684
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: gonna find a commissioner for the Wyoming Department of Game

685
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: and Fish who doesn't think it's cool that grizzly bears

686
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 1: are delisted and recovered to the point that they can

687
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: have a hunt, a sustainable hunt. So I personally have

688
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: a lot of admiration for the professionals that work at

689
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: these state game and phish agencies. And I know, based

690
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: on all the personal friends that I have who work

691
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: for these agencies, that they come at this work with

692
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 1: a really strong conservation ethic and passion for the resource. Um.

693
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: So I view this, this delisting and opportunity to hunt

694
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: as um evidence of a really cool story that I

695
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: hope we can replicate us we're on the landscape. Yeah, man,

696
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: I've spent a ton of time around grizzlies, love being

697
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 1: around them, have had mix ups with them, have never

698
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: killed one. I'm not gonna apply from one of the tags,

699
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: but applaud, applaud the work and effort that's gone into this,

700
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: and applaud the path they're taken on it, and uh

701
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: wishing the best of luck on it. And and I

702
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: hope it goes well. I have concerns about how this

703
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 1: might play out, but hopefully my concerns won't be found.

704
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: And you pointed out an interesting thing, like and I

705
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: think this thing people struggle with. It's like, but they're

706
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: not recovered across the entirety of the range. Well, you

707
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: know what I'm sorry with neither our elk. Elk are

708
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: still absent from their historic range. But no one's running

709
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: around saying like, hey man, we don't have uh, you know,

710
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: a healthy herd of elk in Iowa. How in the

711
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: world are you hunt them in Colorado? It's absurd. Yeah,

712
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: elk used to exist across Like if you look at

713
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 1: a map of the US, it was all elk country,

714
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: excluding like the Florida, probably the Florida Peninsula, probably parts

715
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: of Maine. Elk. We're everywhere. We've recovered some chunks, and

716
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: we hunt elk in those chunks, and we're still simultaneously

717
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: trying to work to put them back on the ground

718
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: in all the places that they belong. And I'll point

719
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: out that the people who are doing this are hunters.

720
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: New Jersey cat ladies are not doing a ton of

721
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: work to put elk back in Iowa. Right. Uh? What

722
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: what kind of things you guys make a pete the tent?

723
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: You can't. It's all the rest of it's all the

724
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 1: rest of it's all secret. Huh. I suppose it matters

725
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: when when the podcast is gonna be posted. Um, give

726
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: a little hinty hint some No, we're gonna rush some

727
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: technical performance pieces of gear that you put on your

728
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: body to touch your skin or not. You know, it

729
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: might touch your boots. It might it might touch your boots.

730
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: It just might touch your boots. Does it cover your

731
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: ankles bigger than a bread box? It's about a loaf

732
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: of bread and it has to do with your ankles.

733
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: That's uh, that's one of the irons in the fire. Okay,

734
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: here's something someone wrote in UM. I like this guy

735
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: right off the bat because he said he listened to

736
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: seventy episodes of the podcast in a month's insane must

737
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: do a lot of driving. Now. He takes great with

738
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: a number of people who have come on the podcast,

739
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: and I think what he's thinking about is Pat Durkin,

740
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: are good? Are our good friend? The lovely Pat Durkin,

741
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: who argues that he draws the question like just what okay?

742
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: He says how Pat Durkin, who he doesn't name by name,

743
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: is always saying that coyotes don't kill many deer. I

744
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: think what Pat was saying is that coyotes are probably

745
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: not having a very dramatic impact on total dear numbers. Right,

746
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: he's saying they don't kill deer, But I think he's saying,

747
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: like when you look at dear numbers, so like numbers

748
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 1: of adult deer on the ground, um that kyles don't

749
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: seem to be having as dramatic of an impact on

750
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: dear numbers as some people like the claim. But this

751
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: guy goes on to have some pretty compelling anecdotal evidence

752
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: where he says he has but he knows about a

753
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: couple of coyote dens. He mounts some trail cams on

754
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 1: these kyote dens, he's got two trail cams posted up

755
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: over two different kyote dens, and last year alone, he

756
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: caught images of coyotes dragging in thirty nine different fonts.

757
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: So he's having a hard time believing. Um, he's having

758
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: a hard time reconciling that with the idea that they're

759
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: not impacting local populations. I feel like it would be

760
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: nice to have Pat here to kind of defend whatever

761
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: it is he did or didn't say. And I would

762
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: not ordinarily speak for Pat Durkin, but I will speak

763
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: for Pat Durkin and saying he certainly did not say

764
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: he doesn't think coyotes kills some deer um coyotes. In

765
00:45:54,960 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: like studies out of Pennsylvania, coyotes and domestic dog are

766
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: the number one killers fawn mortality. Number one fahon mortality

767
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: is kyles and dogs. And the reason you have to

768
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: say that is because when you do a knee cropsy,

769
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: do you say new crops or knee crops? When you

770
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: do a knee crops, he's hard to tell the difference. Yeah,

771
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell it it feels killed by domestic

772
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: dog or yeah, and coyotes. I mean, Pat, everybody at

773
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: this table would agree. Kyotes certainly do kill a fair

774
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: number of fonds and a whole lot of other creators do.

775
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: I mean, in the in the Upper Midwest. This guy

776
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: was from Minnesota, I have that right. But let me

777
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 1: look here, does he say where he's from? I had

778
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: it he was. I had in my head that he

779
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: was in. Uh, he's up on the Canadian border. I'm

780
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: imagining like boundary on northern Minnesota, ninety miles from the

781
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: Canadian border. So yeah, black bears are gonna be killing

782
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: a bounch of fonds too in that country. But a

783
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: couple of points I would make one is you know there,

784
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: this is a species, the white tailed deer is a

785
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: species that has eat that adapted to um withstand very

786
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: strong predation pressure on fawns that occurs in a very

787
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 1: short period of time. So there's this this idea of

788
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: predators swamping. And that's the reason why you know, the

789
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: deer hunting up in that neck of the woods probably

790
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: in late October early November for a couple of weeks

791
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: is really really good because all those does are in

792
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: estrous and all being bred at the same time. That

793
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: translates into a very narrow window of maybe a couple

794
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: of weeks. The same kind of duration of time that

795
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: the rut would last would be the amount of time

796
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: that all those all those pregnancies would be would be

797
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: coming to parturition to birth. And so you have a

798
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: landscape that suddenly has a whole lot of food on

799
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: it in a for a very short window of time,

800
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: and everything is eating those fawns. Coyotes are eating them.

801
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: I mean, one interesting question would be, I'm not doubting

802
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: this guy's story, but if you've got trail cams providing

803
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: pictures of coyotes going to a den with fawns, how

804
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 1: he arrived at the count of the number of fawnds

805
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: he's actually seeing versus pieces of fawns being carried around.

806
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,439
Speaker 1: You know how you come to like there was thirty

807
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: nine fawns through a series of static pictures. I believe

808
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: the guy though, that there's a bunch of fawns getting

809
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: dragged back. The point is you're talking about an animal

810
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: that has evolved to flood the market with lots of

811
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: offspring predators swamping. It's the exact same thing that oak

812
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: trees do when they massed every few years, right there,

813
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: just dumping tons of acorns out all at the same time,

814
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: and the predator in this case would be something like

815
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: squirrels um and over the or deer um and the

816
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: the driver there would be that over the long haul,

817
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: those oak trees or that deer herd is able to

818
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: support a relatively small base of predators by occasionally flooding

819
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 1: the market with offspring, as opposed to trickling out a

820
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: corns or fawns over a longer window. Like like put

821
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: in an extreme Like to put in an extreme sort

822
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: of scenario is imagine you have a let's say you

823
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: have an enclosure, right, just just a picture like the

824
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: idea of predators. You have an enclosure, and then this

825
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: enclosure you put a black bear, and you put ten

826
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: white tailed dos uh and the does all ten of

827
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: those doughs all dropped their fonds on the same day,

828
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: and they're gonna be vulnerable to predation for forty eight hours.

829
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: That black bear is gonna eat one or two in

830
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: that forty eight hour window, and the other eight are

831
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: gonna be by that point up and running around. Now,

832
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: picture that those doughs came in and they spread it

833
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: out so that one had a baby every two weeks,

834
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: probably all those fonds will be dead exactly, so which

835
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: just in this predator swamping is something that takes place

836
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: with like bird nesting colonies. Yeah, so having having those

837
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: those carnival or is consuming some fonts as part of

838
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: the system. Um. You know, another interesting question for the

839
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: guy would be how's his deer hunting ben? Has he

840
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: been able to fill his tags? As you see in

841
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 1: Dear it sounds like you know a guy who's paying

842
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: attention to the local landscape. My guess is he's probably

843
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: a on the upper end of the distribution tail in

844
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: terms of hunter success. Right, he's curious, he's active in

845
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: the outdoors, so he's probably a good hunter. Um. But

846
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: here there's another thing too that you gotta get into it.

847
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: This is, uh, there's there's the idea of like carrying capacity,

848
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: So how many adult deer can the landscape support? And

849
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: oftentimes you're gonna wind up with a somewhat. I mean,

850
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of variabilities and things are happening in

851
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: mass crops and weather and all this stuff. But you're

852
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: gonna have a sort of sense that that that the

853
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: area can support x number of deer through the winter,

854
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: and if and that number is going to stay relatively fixed,

855
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: and you could be losing tons of fawns to coyotes,

856
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 1: but still finding that at the end of their most

857
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: vulnerable stretch of time, so that every year in March

858
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: or every year in April, you're gonna be you have

859
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: that same number of deer have made it through the winter,

860
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 1: and that when you when these fawns are getting killed,

861
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: it's just making room for the next one, because they're

862
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: gonna find there there the bottleneck that they're gonna pass through,

863
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: is they're gonna pass through a bottleneck usually like white

864
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: tails and northern climates are passing through a bottleneck in

865
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: the late winter, and only a certain number going to

866
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: fit through that bottleneck anyway, that's right, And there's usually

867
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: disproportionate mortality for those young of the year, right, So

868
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: those those are the ones that typically have less likelihood

869
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: of passing through that bottleneck. And the ecological term you're

870
00:51:54,680 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: touching on is the idea of compensatory mortality versus additive mortality.

871
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: So the idea that um, if a fawn is killed

872
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: by a coyote in the summer that would have otherwise

873
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: made it through the winter, there's potential for that to

874
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: be an additive source of mortality. But if you say

875
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 1: the coyote wasn't there, you had let me back up,

876
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: I'll simplify it. You've got ten fawns, okay, and only

877
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,399
Speaker 1: five of those fawns are going to make it through

878
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: that bottleneck you're talking about late in the winter. So

879
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 1: there's enough resources for five of them to survive. And

880
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: you have no coyotes in the system. So you have

881
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: five of the ten that die as a result of

882
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: hardship in the wintertime. If you have coyotes there that

883
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: kill those five during the summertime and the other five

884
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: make it through the harsh times of late winter, you

885
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: would say that that's that source of mortality. The five

886
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 1: went to the coyotes was compensated for you had higher

887
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: survival a hundred percent of the remaining individuals. Those five

888
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: individuals made it through winter, as opposed to only fifty

889
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: of those individuals making it through winter. So there's all

890
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: kinds of things that kill fawns. Um the fact that

891
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: they've evolved with these predators, the coyotes and others and

892
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: have these reproductive strategies. And you know, another another um

893
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: form of defense they have is the fact, as you

894
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: touched on, it's not a long window of time that

895
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: they're super susceptible to being killed by coyotes. It's a

896
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: matter of a couple of days that they're able to

897
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: run and be up on their feet. Super success. Super

898
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: success was the word super susceptible. Susceptible Like when you're

899
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: off hunting morals and you find a fawn just laying there. Yeah,

900
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: like that's a pile and stumbled across at at in

901
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: a very narrow window of time, and and you know

902
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: when that's the case, I mean, everything on the landscape

903
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: is fat and happy. The bears are doing really well

904
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: for that narrow window of time. But there aren't too

905
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: many places that come to my mind where you know,

906
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: as a biologist, I'm thinking, man, I'm really concerned about

907
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 1: a lack of abundance and white tail deer. You know,

908
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: I know there's places that the numbers are higher and lower,

909
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: and everybody likes to see deer when they're out there hunting,

910
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: but um recognizing there's going to be some predation on

911
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: the landscape, and the fact that this guy gets to

912
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: see that on his trail cameras, you know, I'd be

913
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: fascinated looking at the pictures and think cool to see

914
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: the coyotes doing their thing. Hopefully I'm still seeing some

915
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 1: some deer in the fall. I guess as this guy is.

916
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: If he's in a situation where the coyotes are able

917
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: to capture that many fawns from that small area, chances

918
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: are there's a heck of a lot of deer kicking

919
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: out fawns. So it doesn't sound like a situation where

920
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: the white tail numbers or something anybody should be really

921
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: worried about. It did man, I was going to roll

922
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 1: through it, man, just play a little. But uh, I'm good.

923
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: I'm good at a place called Stone Glaciers Old, I

924
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: gotta I got a little follow up on this before

925
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: we jump back to pestering Pete. Just I'm not getting

926
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: the kind of answers out of them that want to

927
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 1: get out of them, But go ahead. Talking about this

928
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: brings up this thing that I hear a lot in

929
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: our community about. And it seems like hunters are kind

930
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: of talking about out of both sides of their mouth

931
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: on this one, because at one one Instagram post is

932
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: hunters are such a big part of controlling these populations.

933
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: So there's not too many deer and not too many elk,

934
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: and you know, we're like the ones that are keeping

935
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: all this and check and then out of the other

936
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: side of their mouth, it's and that's why we gotta

937
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: kill all the wolves and coyotes, because if we don't

938
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: manage that population, they're gonna kill off all the deer

939
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: that we're also managing. And so you don't mean to

940
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: tell me that there's some hunters who has some squirrel justification,

941
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: squirreling justification. Yeah, just say you like to go out

942
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: and hunt a bunch um, And yeah, I like to

943
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: hunt a bunch and I hope that there's like maintains,

944
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: like good stable, huntable populations of animals out there. That

945
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: is funny that you're like, no, man, we gott a

946
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: hunt deer because I'll be overpopulated, and we gotta kill

947
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: kyles because they're killing deer. Yeah, totally. And the only

948
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: reason I bring it up is because like I just think,

949
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: like that argument is full of holes. And so if

950
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: if you're also of the group that is like saying like,

951
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, hunting is dying right now, Like it's

952
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: not good to be going out there with arguments that

953
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: don't really hold up. That's right. I've been following some

954
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 1: Australian hunters and they they got the whole other weird

955
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: thing there Elwyes doing. Or they're always saying like, um,

956
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: hey man, this is all non native. We need to

957
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: kill all these animals because they're non native and we're

958
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: doing a great service to the you know, the biota

959
00:56:56,320 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: of Australia by killing all these non native animals. But

960
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: then they're like, damn do I love these animals? This

961
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: is all we eat all the time, love being on

962
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 1: the wild with these animals. But man, we gotta kill

963
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: all these animals. Or they always shoot there like it's

964
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: big males, so they're shooting like stags and bucks because

965
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: we've got to control the animals. Like, if you want

966
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: to control the animals, I don't know if you've taken

967
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: while they biology one on one yet shoot the females.

968
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: If that's really what this is about, shoot females. It

969
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: doesn't do any good for anything in terms of number

970
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: control to kill males. And people are smart, man, you've

971
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: got to be I think authentic in these conversations. There's

972
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong, in my opinion with really liking to

973
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: hunt and havn't it be motivated by a desire to

974
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: be outside getting good food, all that kind of stuff.

975
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: But if you're just trying to argue points that are

976
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: all all the holes, somebody who has no affiliation with

977
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: hunting or the outdoors is going to pretty easily start

978
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: picking at this idea of talking on both sides of

979
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: your mouth. And I think, you know, it's a really

980
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: good observation you made. Be honest with respect to the

981
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: predator control versus the key role of hunters. If you

982
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: were to pull every hunter in Americans say, hey, man,

983
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: if we could snap our fingers right now and have

984
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: the full the full cast of of predators back on

985
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: the landscape and have these systems function with natural predator

986
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:35,919
Speaker 1: prey dynamics, no need for human beings to be part

987
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 1: of that equation anymore. It's gonna be wolves and bears

988
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: and lions and coyotes bobcats doing all that work for us.

989
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: We can wipe our hands, We're we're good to go.

990
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 1: How many hunters are gonna be like, oh yeah, all right,

991
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: that's cool. I don't think any of them. So I

992
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: was only doing it to make sure everything was going

993
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: to be the reality, actually hate hunt. I actually hate hunting,

994
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: but I was just very worried about too many deer.

995
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: So this is there's nothing wrong with saying this is

996
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: something you know that we deeply enjoy and we you know,

997
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: identify fundamentally in our our personal identities as being hunters

998
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: and people who are connected to the land and participatory.

999
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: And I would make the argument too that if you

1000
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: want to talk about the full cast of North American

1001
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: predators or global predators, that for many, many years Homo

1002
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: sapiens have been part of that cast of characters, and

1003
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: celebrating that point um and this desire to maintain a

1004
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: connection to who we are fundamentally in our species identity,

1005
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: I think is a much stronger case than saying, well,

1006
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: we've got this job to do and you know, we

1007
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: gotta we gotta make sure there aren't too many deer,

1008
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: and oh yeah, we got gotta make sure there aren't

1009
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: too many predators. It's like, no, man, celebrate the fact

1010
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: that we are maintaining a strong personal connection to the land,

1011
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: a personal connection to our identity. The species that we

1012
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: evolved as would is one of that, you know, one

1013
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: of the key species in that cast of predators. And

1014
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: be able to, you know, to share authentic stories and

1015
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: authentic information about what we do and not try to

1016
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,479
Speaker 1: not try to paint it with some inauthentic brush, because

1017
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: you have to give credit to the people with whom

1018
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: are communicating about this stuff. They're going to be perceptive,

1019
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: They're going to be able to poke holes. And if

1020
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: you're in a thoughtful conversation, my hope would be people

1021
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: are eager to question and pick and ask. And I

1022
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 1: think a lot of our our community of hunters, you know,

1023
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: we point to these kind of tired, um, overused justifications

1024
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: that we maybe haven't put as much thought into. And

1025
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: it's absolutely okay to really enjoy hunting and have that

1026
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: be a primary motivation and not feel like you have

1027
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Is this what we've got this

1028
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: job to do in the ecosystem, because I think, frankly,

1029
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 1: that's one of the weakest arguments that we have. Yeah,

1030
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: but I think it's helpful to point out, though, to

1031
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 1: to to focus on your particular love of the natural world,

1032
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 1: your love of being out of doors, um. Could be

1033
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: your love of hunting for food that you feed to

1034
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: your family, your interactions, um. And it's helpful to point

1035
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 1: out and say, and in addition to all of that,

1036
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: the system that we've developed in this country makes it

1037
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: that my participation in these activities is normally is like

1038
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: enormously productive in terms of land management and funding for

1039
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: wildlife work. Yes, it's it's it's a it's it's a

1040
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: valuable thing to point out. It's not that I don't

1041
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 1: think anyone's gonna say like, I'd have a hard time.

1042
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: As someone said, dude, the only reason I hunt is

1043
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: because when I buy a hunting license, that provides the

1044
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: funding for my state Phishing Game Agency to work on

1045
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: disease issues and enforcement of wildlife regulations and land enhancement projects.

1046
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: That's why I'm out, Because if that was the case,

1047
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 1: you just send the money, You just send them a check. Right.

1048
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: So I guess like, there's what I personally like about this,

1049
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: and you can take pride in the fact that the

1050
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: systems that we've developed over time make it that my

1051
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: participation in the activity is actually productive for the land

1052
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: and the animals. I'm not a problems there's no problem

1053
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: with that at all. What I what I think. What

1054
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: I think shines through though, when you have somebody making

1055
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: a justification like Joannie was talking about where you're saying simultaneously,

1056
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: I need to be able to play a role in

1057
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: helping control the white tailed deer heard for example, and

1058
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: then meanwhile, yeah, we've got these issues with too many coyotes.

1059
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: If we don't manage the coyote numbers, we're not going

1060
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: to have any deer to hunt. Um. That kind of

1061
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: a conversation where holes can be poked. I think that's

1062
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: coming from a place of and and this might frustrate

1063
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: some listeners. I apologize, but thoughtful discourse here. It's a

1064
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: it's a selfish kind of mindset, right, Like I want

1065
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: to have deer on the landscape so that I, as

1066
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: a hunter can get a deer. It's coming from a

1067
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 1: place of I'm totally comfortable centrism. Okay, yeah, but but okay.

1068
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 1: But my argument is the problem is saying like, no,

1069
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: I want there to be deer because I like to

1070
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:20,959
Speaker 1: hunt deer. Yeah, let me finish my my point though,

1071
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: because I I like getting a deer as much as

1072
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: the next guy. But I'm also interested in having that

1073
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: resource available to support other species on the landscape that

1074
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: have evolved there to be part of that system. So

1075
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 1: for me, I want to have deer on the landscape

1076
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: because I like to get a deer. I mean, if

1077
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: there there has not been a year in a long time.

1078
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 1: And this is not some braggadocio about my hunting prowess.

1079
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: I'm not the greatest hunter in the world, but I

1080
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: have a steady I appreciate the kind words. I have

1081
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: a steady supply of hard earned game meat in my freezer,

1082
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: like all of us here at the table, do okay,

1083
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 1: And that's a fundamental element of my identity. If you

1084
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: took that away from me, that would be a major

1085
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: impact to me and my family in terms of our lifestyle,

1086
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 1: how we eat. Um. So I like having a deer

1087
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 1: as much as the next guy, but I would submit

1088
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: to you that on an equal level of appreciation in

1089
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 1: my mind with my own use of that resource, I

1090
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 1: value the fact that that dear herd exists and is

1091
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 1: supporting a whole cast of other awesome animals in that

1092
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: trophic web, that food web. So I this is the

1093
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 1: selfishness that I was touching on. It's not saying I

1094
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: have a problem with somebody saying they really want to

1095
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 1: get a deer. What I have a problem with is

1096
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 1: somebody saying, I feel like I have the corner around

1097
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: the market for deer, and these deer are all here

1098
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: for human beings, and I don't have any tolerant. It's

1099
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: for all these other animals in the landscape that are

1100
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: also working hard two transfer those deer into their calories.

1101
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 1: So I love the idea of sharing my deer hunting

1102
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: spots with the full cast of species that evolved to

1103
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: be part of that system. And if you gave me

1104
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 1: the choice of hunting in a place where I could

1105
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: easily kill a deer every year in the absence of

1106
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: that sharing, or another word would be that competition versus

1107
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: a place where maybe I'd kill a deer every other year,

1108
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 1: but there's this robust community of all these other organisms

1109
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: that depend on each other for their existence, I would take.

1110
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: I would take the latter option. And I think the

1111
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: extreme example of you know, the ease of killing something

1112
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: every year and in the total control you could talk

1113
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: about like a high fenced deer kind of operation where

1114
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: there's no predators, very high likelihood of success, and increasingly artificial. Yeah,

1115
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 1: I'm looking for a situation where you're experiencing the ecosystem

1116
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: and it's full complement of species, and if that comes

1117
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 1: with potential for a lower degree of success in my hunting,

1118
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: so be it, because I would rather have an intact

1119
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: ecosystem in which I can be an active participant, maybe

1120
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 1: with a lower success rate, than a situation where there's

1121
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: a whole pile of deer out there and I'm going

1122
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: to get two bucks and four does every year without

1123
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: a whole lot of work because the system has been

1124
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 1: so manipulated that that opportunity exists. I think that that's

1125
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 1: the thing we've touched on the past is I think

1126
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: that's why I kind of like caution people against assessing

1127
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 1: the health of the lands gate by looking at how

1128
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 1: many deer I have, how many turkeys I have, Because

1129
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: you could go into a property, go into a chunk

1130
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: of ground and scrub it of its bio diversity. In

1131
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 1: scrubbed of like well, you know, Leopold's cogs and wheels,

1132
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:16,760
Speaker 1: right of the natural world. Scrub it all out, and

1133
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: you've got like the right ratio of soybeans to multi

1134
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 1: flora rose, you know, to blow down timber and have

1135
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 1: a ton of deer and all other you've gotten rid

1136
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 1: of all other native much of the other native fauna

1137
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 1: and flora, and you go out like, look it's healthy

1138
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 1: because there's deer here. It's like you could be looking

1139
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 1: at a very unhealthy landscape. It's got a shiploaded deer

1140
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: on it, and it has been another way to measure it.

1141
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: So I agree, like, there's there's nothing you're saying that

1142
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: I think even like borders on like a controversial sentiment.

1143
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I feel like there's an element

1144
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: of our community of hunters that is um overly focused

1145
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: on simple measures of what success looks like did I

1146
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 1: get a deer? Did I not get a deer, as

1147
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 1: opposed to being more considerate of the health of the

1148
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: systems that they are participating in. So, you know, I

1149
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 1: do believe there's an element of our community that's fairly

1150
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 1: self centered and selfish and the idea of scrubbing every

1151
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 1: predator from the landscape so that they could have more dear,

1152
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: which has been something that the hunting community has wrestled

1153
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: with for a hundred plus years. Um, I think that's

1154
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 1: still alive and well in some quarters. And for me personally,

1155
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:49,680
Speaker 1: I'm speaking you know, about my own philosophy here, I

1156
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's flawed, and I think it's

1157
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 1: detrimental to our ability to have thoughtful conversations with the

1158
01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 1: non hunting public about the activity when it's coming from

1159
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 1: a really selfish place. If you're saying, and this is

1160
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 1: getting back to Yanni's observation about um, you know, I'm

1161
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 1: playing this role as a as a deer manager. I'm

1162
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 1: playing this role as a predator manager. I think what

1163
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: starts to come through there is just this idea that

1164
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: the deer are here from me, as opposed to I'm

1165
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: a participant in this system that I treasure, that I cherish,

1166
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 1: and that I know something about. That's a very different conversation.

1167
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 1: And I think that conversation about being an active participant

1168
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 1: in a community that you know something about, and by

1169
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 1: community I mean an ecological community where you're a predator

1170
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,640
Speaker 1: involved in this system that you've come to understand and

1171
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:42,959
Speaker 1: appreciate and cherish. That kind of conversation I think can resonate,

1172
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: should resonate with a whole lot of people who might

1173
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 1: never want to hunt. And the days of us, you know,

1174
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 1: arguing about this stuff from a position of feeling like

1175
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 1: we've got these really strong rights. You know, we exist

1176
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 1: in a democrat out of society, and I think we

1177
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 1: are our ability to continue participating in these activities, maybe

1178
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,879
Speaker 1: not in our generation, but maybe in our grandkids generation.

1179
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 1: It's going to hinge on whether or not we can

1180
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:17,720
Speaker 1: communicate authentically and effectively. And that conversation about being an

1181
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 1: active participant who's immersed in the systems that evolved us

1182
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 1: as a species, I think that's that's an argument, that's

1183
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:26,879
Speaker 1: a set of observations that's going to continue to resonate

1184
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: with the non hunting and hunting public in perpetuity. Whereas

1185
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 1: a conversation about I need to manage the deer so

1186
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 1: they don't get over abundant, I need to manage the

1187
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 1: coyotes so they don't need all my dear, that conversation

1188
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: is gonna gonna fall flat on its face. I'm tracking.

1189
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,719
Speaker 1: I'd like to point out too, very quickly that you know, hunting,

1190
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: the animals that we take as hunters are compensatory, right, yes,

1191
01:10:57,120 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: And in most you know, unless they're really trying to

1192
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: down a population of said, you know, certain animal, where

1193
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 1: they're also they're like, O could kill a bunch of dollars,

1194
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: kill a bunch of this, right, most most of these

1195
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 1: systems we manage so that we're sort of like, not

1196
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: like extra doing extra killing. We're like, if you took

1197
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 1: us out, you roughly have the same population. It's not

1198
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: quite that simplenny. I mean, what drives the establishment of

1199
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 1: quotas is gonna is going to be a combination of

1200
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:35,599
Speaker 1: ecological science and social science. The reality is, in any

1201
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: one of these systems, we could be managing it up

1202
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:43,840
Speaker 1: or down potentially um for more fewer animals. And it's

1203
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: a matter of yeah, making sure it's sustainable, but you

1204
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: could have a sustainable number of animals on the landscape

1205
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 1: that is higher or lower than what we do. So

1206
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 1: not all the hunting associated mortality is going to be

1207
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: compensatory or additive. Yeah, this is something that comes up

1208
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: all the time. Um. And we've talked about a bunch

1209
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 1: of times when people say, like deer overpopulated, it's kind

1210
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: of well by whose measure, right, because it could be

1211
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 1: that oftentimes from a hunter's perspective, they're hardly overpopulated. Like

1212
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 1: I don't see it. A matter of fact, I didn't

1213
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,600
Speaker 1: even get one last year. But from a from the

1214
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: automobile insurance industry might think they're way overpopulated. When you

1215
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: look at how many claims they're handling for deer car collisions.

1216
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 1: Agricultural interests might say they're overpopulated when they're looking at

1217
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:37,160
Speaker 1: orchard damage or people who are losing whole orchard plantings

1218
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:41,680
Speaker 1: two deer, and they might argue that it's overabundant. And

1219
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 1: so I think that they're that the wildlife managers are

1220
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: always needing to manipulate the valve because on one hand,

1221
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 1: they're they're hearing from hunters, we want more deer on

1222
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 1: the landscape, we want hire success rates, and other people,

1223
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,839
Speaker 1: you know, automobile insurance, egg and the host of others.

1224
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 1: In some places, even like the landscaping industry is saying like, man,

1225
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 1: we've got close at valva and and you're you're making

1226
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:10,439
Speaker 1: like constant microadjustments. Yeah, and they're rooted in different value sets.

1227
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:14,640
Speaker 1: And and for me, you know, as somebody who um

1228
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:20,320
Speaker 1: as a trend ecologist and somebody who values a system

1229
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,559
Speaker 1: in which you have all the all the players present

1230
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: and interacting the way they have evolved to interact. Another

1231
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 1: criterion by which you could you could measure deer over

1232
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,440
Speaker 1: abundance would be are there so many deer on the landscape?

1233
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: That they're having a negative effect on other species that

1234
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,640
Speaker 1: are part of that ecosystem, and there are plenty of

1235
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 1: examples where that's been shown to be the case. So

1236
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: like the big drive to lower snow geese numbers has

1237
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 1: as much to do with protecting their habitat Arctic like

1238
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 1: Arctic coastal habitat as it does grain fields in Louisy

1239
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 1: in Texas. And there are places where that's true for

1240
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 1: white tailed deer as well, where um the idea of

1241
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:11,120
Speaker 1: trying to bring deer to meet a particular objective, um

1242
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 1: bring numbers down, is driven by trying to protect other

1243
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 1: elements of that ecosystem. So I think it's the the Canada.

1244
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 1: You as a plant up in northern Wisconsin that historically

1245
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 1: was much more abundant, and it's it's, you know, like

1246
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: candy to the deer in the wintertime, and it's basically

1247
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,680
Speaker 1: been eliminated from much of northern Wisconsin. And the only

1248
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 1: places you have little pockets of it are on the

1249
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: Apostle Islands, where the the deer densities are either zero

1250
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 1: or really low. So there are plenty of examples for

1251
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 1: a variety of species where they're over abundance has resulted

1252
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 1: in major implications to the ecosystem. So you have these

1253
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 1: criteria that are social, like the insurance example, or the

1254
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 1: the farmer trying to grow corn or soybeans, and then

1255
01:14:55,880 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: you have other other criteria that are driven more around ecology.

1256
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 1: And which one of those you put more weight on

1257
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 1: is going to be very subjective, Right, what do you

1258
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 1: care most about? If you're the farmer, you might think

1259
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 1: of deer as rats with antlers, um. And if you're

1260
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 1: a guy who waits all year to have that week

1261
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 1: of deer season and you want to be able to

1262
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: fill X number of tags, you might have a very

1263
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:32,360
Speaker 1: different perception of what too many deer looks like. This

1264
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:37,439
Speaker 1: leads into another question, Pet you cool? What I was

1265
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:41,280
Speaker 1: gonna ask you men for? Um? I just wanta how

1266
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 1: bad your Australian accent was. Let's say you work at

1267
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 1: the place like Stone Glacier. Um, why do companies Why

1268
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: are companies secrety about? Like? What's the argument to be

1269
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 1: secrety about a product you're gonna make sure? Like? What

1270
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 1: are they afraid of? Um? I don't. I think there's

1271
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 1: just a time and a place to kind of to

1272
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 1: lay out the unveiling of it in the hype. Um

1273
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 1: that that hype is valuable and market you want to

1274
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:16,479
Speaker 1: time that correctly, got with the with the delivering of

1275
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: the product. But look, man, when a new Star Wars

1276
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 1: movies coming out, they release trailers. They released trailers for trailers.

1277
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 1: The questions because I had one one time I asked

1278
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: this to a guy who works in apparel. Heugh was,

1279
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 1: explain me, there is when you announce new stuff coming out,

1280
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 1: people will stop buying the currently available stuff because like, well,

1281
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:43,880
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna wait for the new stuff. And then

1282
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 1: you could be in a situation where you're left holding

1283
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 1: sure because they're like, well I was gonna buy a

1284
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, but screw it now, I'm just

1285
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 1: gonna wait for the sweet news you can see like

1286
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 1: in cars. Right. And also, you realize, man, once we

1287
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: told about this bit a new truck, two eighteen trucks

1288
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 1: sales every we just put it off because of waiting

1289
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 1: for the new one. But in the situation like this,

1290
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 1: where company's launching a product they don't currently make, that

1291
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 1: argument doesn't hold water. It's very true. Just think about

1292
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 1: all this. Yeah, I'm taking notes. Um, that's funny because

1293
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:19,720
Speaker 1: I haven't seen you writ anything. You can give me

1294
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 1: a pen when I came in. Ah. Yeah, I think

1295
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:25,719
Speaker 1: it's just the timing of the of the hype. And

1296
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: you know, you don't want people forget about it. You

1297
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,679
Speaker 1: want to tell them about it when they can actually

1298
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 1: buy it or close to it. Yeah, yeah, and not

1299
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 1: just get forgotten and blown away in the wind. Can

1300
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 1: I get one of those blue hoodies? Yeah, we just

1301
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 1: came out with these yesterday. Can you tell people about it?

1302
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 1: It's a blue hoodie. It's a blue it's a bright

1303
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,880
Speaker 1: blue hoodie, and it has the American flag on my

1304
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 1: chest and the Stone Glacier logo as well. I wear

1305
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 1: this here Stone Glacier shirt because my wife's that it

1306
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 1: makes me look a little younger. Yeah. It's got a yeah,

1307
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 1: which apparently is um something she cares about. Our shadow

1308
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:06,120
Speaker 1: being a shadow lady, the shadow leader issues. That's our

1309
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:10,679
Speaker 1: jersey for a softball team. Don't look like a little

1310
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 1: league player in this some badass mountain hunter man. Our

1311
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:21,720
Speaker 1: softball team name is the Stone Glacier. You crushers. That's good.

1312
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:25,559
Speaker 1: That's a good name. You like not you would, but

1313
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 1: you e w okay, Carl, This is a real doozy,

1314
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 1: the major doozy. All right, and it's long. It's a

1315
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:42,800
Speaker 1: long angry email. Favorite kind a long angry email. And

1316
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 1: I love the guy. He owns the entire collection of

1317
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 1: the Mediator TV show, so he's not a freeloader. Wants

1318
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:55,799
Speaker 1: to point that out. He is critical here where he says, boys,

1319
01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 1: I know you guys generally don't find fault and biologists

1320
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:06,840
Speaker 1: and over the agencies and whatnot. But come on, but

1321
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:10,639
Speaker 1: come on, and you know, I don't know that's that's

1322
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 1: an entirely fair statement. I feel that I can find

1323
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 1: plenty of situations where where I have not been happy

1324
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 1: about something that the government agency has done. For instance, uh,

1325
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 1: the State of New Jersey closing bear season. That's a

1326
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 1: government agency making a move that I think is ridiculous

1327
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:34,720
Speaker 1: and misguided. So we've talked about plenty of times and

1328
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 1: government agencies are screwed up. But here's his here's where

1329
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 1: he here's his angry nous, here's his problem. He's from

1330
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 1: Georgia and he keeps wanting to go up to hunt

1331
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:48,240
Speaker 1: moose and Maine. And he's saying, how they keep counting

1332
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:51,439
Speaker 1: moose and Maine. They're like, oh so Maine's thirty five thousand,

1333
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:56,120
Speaker 1: five square miles huge place. It's got one year, they

1334
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 1: say maybe they got sixty thousand moose in Maine on

1335
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:02,680
Speaker 1: the low end. Then there's account that comes out and

1336
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 1: there's someone that doesn't estimate, maybe we've got seventy five

1337
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:11,080
Speaker 1: thousand moose in Maine. So he's pointing out, man shiploads

1338
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 1: a moose in Maine. But then there's some talk about

1339
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:24,559
Speaker 1: how they're wondering what the increasingly warm weather and Maine

1340
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:27,160
Speaker 1: kind of what kind of impacts it's having on moose,

1341
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:31,120
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of worry about increasingly warm summers

1342
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:35,040
Speaker 1: and what and it's concreasingly warm winters, and they're reducing

1343
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:38,559
Speaker 1: the number of tags available to hunters even though they

1344
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 1: still have apparently quite a lot of moose. Like, how

1345
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:46,200
Speaker 1: in the world he's wondering, could it be that the

1346
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 1: number of tags they're issuing, how could it be as

1347
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:54,479
Speaker 1: low as two thousand, one forty moose tags when you've

1348
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:59,559
Speaker 1: got perhaps seventy five thousand moose. Then the writer does

1349
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 1: something a bit confusing where he starts pointing out that

1350
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 1: the Canadian provinces to the north of Maine have many

1351
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,799
Speaker 1: more moose two hundred twelve thousand, Newfoundland maybe has around

1352
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:16,240
Speaker 1: three thirty thousand. So he's saying, you got all these

1353
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:18,760
Speaker 1: moose all over the place, why isn't Maine killing more.

1354
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:22,240
Speaker 1: I want to dispatch with a couple of that's before

1355
01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:23,559
Speaker 1: we turn it over to Carl and a couple thats

1356
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 1: be one. If you're the moose manager in Maine who

1357
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:31,439
Speaker 1: cares what they have in Newfoundland or New Brunswick, you

1358
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:33,799
Speaker 1: wouldn't say I'm gonna kill all the deer in Iowa

1359
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:37,479
Speaker 1: because Ohio has got a lot of deer, right, So

1360
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:40,720
Speaker 1: that really isn't like a valid point. And not only that,

1361
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 1: but if you look, Maine doesn't manage moose by Maine.

1362
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:48,920
Speaker 1: They manage moose by very like micro chunks of ground,

1363
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:51,599
Speaker 1: so they have, you know, you have districts and regions,

1364
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: and you're making like micro management decisions, sometimes down to

1365
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:59,600
Speaker 1: a single valley. So it doesn't like it's germane to

1366
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:01,679
Speaker 1: be like to talk about how many you're in other places.

1367
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:04,320
Speaker 1: Let's focus on the core of the question. He's sort

1368
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 1: of accusing them of saying they're all worried about climate change,

1369
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 1: so they're saying we can't go kill moose, even though

1370
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:12,720
Speaker 1: it's a ton of moose and they're not letting us

1371
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:17,400
Speaker 1: get at as many. No, Carl, can you speak to

1372
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,679
Speaker 1: what's going on? And it's happening in more places than Maine.

1373
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:27,519
Speaker 1: What's going on with some of the trepidation around what's

1374
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:31,439
Speaker 1: where moose are at, what role hunting is playing with moose?

1375
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,840
Speaker 1: What might be happening to moose? Right? Can you dig

1376
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 1: in totally? And before I before I dig into the

1377
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:42,720
Speaker 1: science side of it, I'm thinking about a strategy for

1378
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 1: trying to get a moose tag. Right, Because you're thinking

1379
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:49,839
Speaker 1: about this guy's strategy, I guess Maine would be awesome.

1380
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,759
Speaker 1: But this is getting back to the beginning of the podcast.

1381
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,599
Speaker 1: We're talking about the idea of having a beer. If

1382
01:22:57,640 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 1: I said you want to go moose hunting, you're gonna say, well,

1383
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:05,760
Speaker 1: only if it's in Maine. Well he can drive. He's

1384
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 1: in Georgia and he can drive main And Pete was

1385
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:10,840
Speaker 1: just telling Pete telling me, tell these guys, tell yeah,

1386
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:12,880
Speaker 1: I I also put in for a moose tag in

1387
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:15,680
Speaker 1: Maine this year. Um for a couple of different reasons. One,

1388
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 1: I really want to go moose hunting a lot like this, Uh,

1389
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 1: this guy that wrote in um Phil Phil, Yeah, it

1390
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: sounds like Phil really wants a moose tag. I do too.

1391
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:29,759
Speaker 1: I have ten bonus points in Montana as a resident

1392
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 1: in the area I put in for my draw, odds

1393
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:34,720
Speaker 1: are still sub four percent. It's like three and a

1394
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 1: half percent chance that I'll draw this tag this year.

1395
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 1: There are no bonus points in Maine. It's very affordable

1396
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:44,240
Speaker 1: to put your name in the hat, and I think

1397
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:47,840
Speaker 1: I have a seven or eight percent chance. So Pete

1398
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:49,840
Speaker 1: would argue that they're still doing a good job on

1399
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 1: giving out opportunity in Maine. I was doing a quick

1400
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:53,800
Speaker 1: math in my head. I'm not real good at math,

1401
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:57,360
Speaker 1: but uh, a little over two thousand tags to sixty

1402
01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:00,200
Speaker 1: thousand moose that seems like somewhere in the ball park

1403
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 1: of what a three or four target objective of harvest.

1404
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 1: That seems pretty normal to me, so I guess it can.

1405
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:14,519
Speaker 1: It can vary. Those percentages can vary widely depending on

1406
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:17,160
Speaker 1: the host of factors, but it's definitely not unusual. I

1407
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 1: think like you would know this. I think with mountain goats,

1408
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 1: I think like in excessive five percent is dangerous, correct, Yeah,

1409
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:27,519
Speaker 1: like Washington manages for a one percent harvest objective of

1410
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 1: mountain goats. Montana manages for four, so different states choose

1411
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:36,080
Speaker 1: different numbers to shoot for. But if moose or anything

1412
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 1: like mountain goats sounds like men on par for the

1413
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:43,760
Speaker 1: course here for Phil, I'm going to criticize the state agency.

1414
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:47,160
Speaker 1: I think, I think I think that the Washington I

1415
01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:49,880
Speaker 1: think at Washington Fishing Game, I think their perspective on

1416
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:52,960
Speaker 1: harvest numbers from mountain goasts is ridiculous. And I think,

1417
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 1: and this is a bowl, I can't back it up,

1418
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 1: but I feel there's kind of a there is a

1419
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:02,800
Speaker 1: there's there's a sentiment there seems that at times be

1420
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 1: a sentiment there um of of not maximizing, of not

1421
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 1: maximizing opportunity. They're kind of like, I guess we gotta

1422
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 1: allow him to do some hunting. Yeah, Yeah, I don't

1423
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 1: think you're alone in that feeling. Because the one percent

1424
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:21,840
Speaker 1: is you know, or whatever it is like to be

1425
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 1: on such the low end of the acceptable spectrum. I

1426
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:27,120
Speaker 1: think there's a great argument, and I've read the argument

1427
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 1: made that like in excess of five percent can get

1428
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:32,639
Speaker 1: dangerous on these on mountain goat populations because the low

1429
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: fecundity high risk of natural disaster. You know that they

1430
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 1: die by accident and avalanches, rock slides, falling. Um. It

1431
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 1: takes a lot to get a mature nanny who's reproductively successful, right,

1432
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 1: I understand all that, So I'm not disparaging the idea

1433
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:53,360
Speaker 1: of applying for a main moose teg. My point is,

1434
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: if he'd even limited himself to the lower forty eight,

1435
01:25:57,400 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 1: he could be thrown in. If his idea is like

1436
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 1: I want to go on a moose hunt, he should

1437
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 1: be applying. I would say anywhere there's an opportunity, and

1438
01:26:06,320 --> 01:26:10,839
Speaker 1: they can't do that much farther to drive from Georgia.

1439
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 1: It's not like Maine is in the backyard. It's not

1440
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 1: like Maine is in the backyard of Georgia. So he

1441
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 1: could be he could be applying eight or nine states. Yeah,

1442
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 1: And I'm coming at this from the standpoint of having

1443
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,799
Speaker 1: just hunted moose in Idaho last year as a non resident.

1444
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:30,960
Speaker 1: As a nonresident and shout out to the state of Idaho.

1445
01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:33,360
Speaker 1: I love the way. I'm sure some people hate it.

1446
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:37,519
Speaker 1: But forcing you to choose one species and then having

1447
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:41,280
Speaker 1: a real likelihood of actually drawn a tag with no

1448
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:44,160
Speaker 1: point system, I think is really cool you want calling

1449
01:26:44,200 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 1: in the bull there? I called in several bulls and

1450
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:51,000
Speaker 1: managed to get one at close range. Yeah, it was

1451
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:54,160
Speaker 1: an awesome hunt, had a great group of friends there.

1452
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 1: It was a once in a lifetime experience, literally, because

1453
01:26:57,280 --> 01:27:00,439
Speaker 1: now I'm you know, prohibited from ever a plan for

1454
01:27:00,479 --> 01:27:03,040
Speaker 1: a bull tag and Idaho again. And you ran into

1455
01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 1: our resident enforcement specialist. I did. The guy called when

1456
01:27:08,040 --> 01:27:10,719
Speaker 1: I got an enforcement and I got an enforcement question.

1457
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: Ic Crawford. Wonderful guy. He actually man. He was kind

1458
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 1: enough to come out and visit camp and register the

1459
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:21,040
Speaker 1: bull for me. But um, the reason I'm bringing up

1460
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,799
Speaker 1: Idaho is can I kind of enough real quick? Sure? Uh?

1461
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 1: Did you did you enjoy? Was the moose meat? Pretty good?

1462
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 1: It's been excellent. I'm still I mean, yeah, you use

1463
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 1: it past past tense is not appropriate here because I'm

1464
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:37,080
Speaker 1: gonna be eating that moose. Did you data or when

1465
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 1: you see moose? You know what that moose was? Yeah? No,

1466
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:42,040
Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about like which moose was this?

1467
01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:46,360
Speaker 1: And my freezer a fossils? There will there will be

1468
01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: no freezer fossils. I agree with Steve's advice on that, um,

1469
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,000
Speaker 1: but I have been very generous too. That's the other

1470
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:53,720
Speaker 1: nice thing about having a moose is being able to

1471
01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:56,720
Speaker 1: dole out some meat. And this is the smallest of

1472
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 1: the subspecies to rights shiris bulls, so but still a

1473
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,040
Speaker 1: very large animal. And my buds who came and joined

1474
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:06,639
Speaker 1: me each left with a cooler full of meat. So

1475
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:10,519
Speaker 1: I'm digressing here, But the point is for this listener,

1476
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,800
Speaker 1: don't limit yourself just the main first start, you're starting

1477
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:16,920
Speaker 1: out with some advice. Yeah, don't limit yourself just to

1478
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:18,760
Speaker 1: Main if you want to go moose hunting and you

1479
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 1: want to drive there, because you could just go buy

1480
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:23,160
Speaker 1: over the counter up in Alaska right and make it happen,

1481
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 1: which is going to be more expensive, more logistically challenging.

1482
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:28,920
Speaker 1: But if you want to hunt moose in the meat

1483
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:33,080
Speaker 1: home is very tough, yes, and not tough. So if

1484
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:34,800
Speaker 1: you want to limit yourself to the lower forty eight,

1485
01:28:34,840 --> 01:28:37,960
Speaker 1: I would point out Maine is not in the backyard

1486
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:41,240
Speaker 1: of Georgia. For a similar distance of driving, you could

1487
01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:43,240
Speaker 1: be going up and and hunting some of those other

1488
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:47,559
Speaker 1: um you know, Northern Rockies States, Northwest States, and and

1489
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:49,920
Speaker 1: if you're lucky enough to draw obviously, the more hats

1490
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:53,000
Speaker 1: you have, your name in the higher the chances. So

1491
01:28:53,120 --> 01:28:56,479
Speaker 1: all that being said, UM, I like it though, all right,

1492
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 1: because you start you know what my dad always said,

1493
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 1: he didn't invent us, don't curse the darkness. Light a candle,

1494
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:06,040
Speaker 1: Light a candle. Nice like to think the old man

1495
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:07,599
Speaker 1: came up with that bound. I think he did. I'd

1496
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:09,679
Speaker 1: like to think that maybe we're lighting a candle here

1497
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:13,280
Speaker 1: and and just lit fills candle. Well, it feels lucky

1498
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:16,920
Speaker 1: enough to draw a tag up in Idaho. I'd be

1499
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:19,639
Speaker 1: happy to chat with him to about the planning there.

1500
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:22,800
Speaker 1: It was a fantastic experience, all right. So what's going

1501
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:26,840
Speaker 1: on with moose? Um? I would I would refute something

1502
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:34,600
Speaker 1: that Steve said where it's not allowed. You made this.

1503
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:37,840
Speaker 1: Don't worry it's it's nothing to major, But you made

1504
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:42,320
Speaker 1: this comment that, Um, what's happening in those more northern

1505
01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:46,800
Speaker 1: provinces is not relevant to what's happening in Maine. But

1506
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:51,960
Speaker 1: in fact it's part of the story because Maine and

1507
01:29:52,120 --> 01:29:55,559
Speaker 1: our other um moose hunning opportunities in the lower forty

1508
01:29:55,640 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 1: eight represent the southern of this species range. So when

1509
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:06,840
Speaker 1: you're in that situation and you're you're talking about hunting

1510
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:12,519
Speaker 1: opportunity at the very fringes of a species distribution. You're

1511
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 1: already kind of starting off on a difficult foot because

1512
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:20,800
Speaker 1: you're talking about hunting an animal that is inherently existing

1513
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:26,639
Speaker 1: at the limits of its capacity to exist. So moose

1514
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:28,720
Speaker 1: are an animal. I'm sorry, But what's the part that

1515
01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 1: I said that's bad? You said, what was happening in

1516
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:34,480
Speaker 1: those in those Canadian provinces. I think you mentioned Newfoundland

1517
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:37,679
Speaker 1: and New Brunswick. It wasn't relevant. You said, just because

1518
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:41,400
Speaker 1: they're killing all the deer and state X, I don't

1519
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:44,080
Speaker 1: need to worry about you know, I'm gonna you said,

1520
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:47,920
Speaker 1: just because the hunting is great in Iowa, I'm gonna

1521
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:50,519
Speaker 1: go ahead and kill all the deer here in whatever state.

1522
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm ok. And I'm saying to set the stage for

1523
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:57,800
Speaker 1: the biology the story here, it's important to recognize that

1524
01:30:57,840 --> 01:31:01,280
Speaker 1: there's a fundamental difference as you oh north for the

1525
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 1: moose into the core of its range. I don't want

1526
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 1: to belabor this, but this isn't That was not what

1527
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:09,280
Speaker 1: I was saying. You Okay, that's true. You said for

1528
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 1: him to say, hey, Maine has sixty thousand moose, they

1529
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 1: should give out more tags in Maine because a neighboring

1530
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:22,400
Speaker 1: Canadian province has three. Okay I was I thought you

1531
01:31:22,439 --> 01:31:26,600
Speaker 1: were saying, in essence, what's happening in those other provinces

1532
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 1: is irrelevant to what's happening here. No, okay, all ahead,

1533
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:34,599
Speaker 1: Well then I'll I apologize for misinterpreting. The point is

1534
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 1: what's happening in those other provinces, thank you, is that

1535
01:31:38,240 --> 01:31:42,280
Speaker 1: they are they represent really kind of the core of

1536
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:45,840
Speaker 1: the of the distribution. That is a place where, for

1537
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:49,240
Speaker 1: a variety of reasons, moose are able to thrive in

1538
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:55,880
Speaker 1: contrast to the southern limits of their range, I e. Maine. Okay,

1539
01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:59,439
Speaker 1: So in Maine, you're talking about an animal that has

1540
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:07,000
Speaker 1: evolved to withstand very cold weather. Um, there's this idea

1541
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:13,160
Speaker 1: um an ecology in species evolution of a thermo and

1542
01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:14,840
Speaker 1: you you talked about this actually with some of your

1543
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 1: buffalo work. But the thermo neutral zone. So if you

1544
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:21,920
Speaker 1: think about being a human being, you know the range

1545
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:24,560
Speaker 1: of temperatures where we can hang out and be pretty comfortable.

1546
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:29,360
Speaker 1: Let's say it the lower limit is maybe fifty degrees

1547
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:34,080
Speaker 1: and you know, you could ask a human um a

1548
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:38,519
Speaker 1: biologist who who studies people, physiologist, you could ask what

1549
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:41,120
Speaker 1: the what the actual numbers are. But let's say it's

1550
01:32:41,160 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: fifty degrees. Yeah, if you get below that, you start shivering, right,

1551
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:49,280
Speaker 1: and that shivering comes with an energetic cost. And on

1552
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: the upper limit, when do you start getting uncomfortable? What

1553
01:32:52,080 --> 01:32:56,040
Speaker 1: do you say? You're a better man than I am. Damn,

1554
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:01,200
Speaker 1: he's durable. So I started, I start breaking a sweat

1555
01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:05,160
Speaker 1: if I'm just hanging out, let's say whatever, you get

1556
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:08,840
Speaker 1: the idea. So, whether you're trying to keep yourself warm

1557
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:12,160
Speaker 1: through shivering, or trying to cool yourself off through sweating

1558
01:33:12,160 --> 01:33:15,680
Speaker 1: in our case, or if you can't sweat, panting some

1559
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:19,639
Speaker 1: sort of um physiological response to either heat or cool yourself,

1560
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:22,919
Speaker 1: those things come at a cost. So there's this envelope

1561
01:33:23,360 --> 01:33:28,880
Speaker 1: where you can exist without any energetic cost associated with

1562
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 1: addressing an uncomfortable temperature. Yeah, you know, and you're talking

1563
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:35,240
Speaker 1: for the Buffalo. I remember you writing that. You know,

1564
01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:37,840
Speaker 1: it's some absurd like you can crank them down. They

1565
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 1: couldn't find it. So yeah, in my book American, that's

1566
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:42,640
Speaker 1: about the study they did where they took a like

1567
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:44,719
Speaker 1: a whole stein or just some running the mill cow.

1568
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:49,160
Speaker 1: They took a Tibetan yak. I think they had a

1569
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:55,400
Speaker 1: Scottish highland some variety like Scottish Highland cow in a

1570
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:58,519
Speaker 1: buffalo and they put them in these shipping containers with

1571
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:01,520
Speaker 1: monitors on to see and they had like a metabolic

1572
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:07,840
Speaker 1: increase related to the temperature so basically that it will

1573
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:11,360
Speaker 1: start to shiver or start to expend energy to keep warm.

1574
01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 1: And they hit it like very quickly with the regular cow.

1575
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:17,479
Speaker 1: Um how mare what it was twenty degrees or whatever

1576
01:34:17,479 --> 01:34:20,639
Speaker 1: the hell was like like surprisingly like still surprisingly warm,

1577
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,240
Speaker 1: and he hit it with a regular cow. And then

1578
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:26,800
Speaker 1: I think the Scottish Highland cattle, the Scottish Highland cow

1579
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 1: tapped out. The Tibetan yak might have tapped out at

1580
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 1: negative thirty and they couldn't get they could never get

1581
01:34:35,280 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 1: the container cold enough to tap it out. They couldn't

1582
01:34:37,439 --> 01:34:39,479
Speaker 1: tap it out of the buffalo. Yeah, And it might

1583
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:40,680
Speaker 1: have tried, like I don't know, I don't know if

1584
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:43,320
Speaker 1: they got to negative seventy, but they couldn't find the

1585
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:45,960
Speaker 1: point when it had a metabolic increase for dated to cold,

1586
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:51,880
Speaker 1: meaning some bits cold tolerant as are moose, they're very

1587
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:55,720
Speaker 1: cold tolerant. And can I tell no quick story, Yeah, sure, man,

1588
01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:59,960
Speaker 1: this is your gig baby. So cold tolerant, so cold

1589
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:02,960
Speaker 1: toller that there was a there was trying to do

1590
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 1: some account on a buffalo herd in Canada, and they're

1591
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:10,559
Speaker 1: out in the winter and they were using thermal imaging

1592
01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 1: to find the animals. They could never find them because

1593
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:16,120
Speaker 1: they're so well insulated. One day a guy noticed, when

1594
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:18,439
Speaker 1: he's looking at the images, how he sees these little

1595
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:24,160
Speaker 1: teeny crescent these little teeny black crescent shapes that didn't

1596
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:27,080
Speaker 1: make sense. And what he later realized was the horn

1597
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:31,280
Speaker 1: is their belly. That when one's laying on its side

1598
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:34,200
Speaker 1: and it's belly hair is exposed, you would now and

1599
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:36,920
Speaker 1: then hit a little bit of its belly, but it's

1600
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:40,519
Speaker 1: so well insulated that you're not picking up warmth off

1601
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 1: of his back. It's a great a great story and

1602
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:49,559
Speaker 1: a great example of how a given animal can be

1603
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 1: so well adapted to, uh, you know, a very cold envelope.

1604
01:35:55,960 --> 01:36:02,400
Speaker 1: All right. So moose like the buffalo are well adapted

1605
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:08,679
Speaker 1: to withstands some extremely cold temperatures. But it doesn't take

1606
01:36:09,800 --> 01:36:14,240
Speaker 1: particularly warm temperatures for them to need to start regulating

1607
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,719
Speaker 1: their body heat down, which is one of the reasons

1608
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,759
Speaker 1: that in the summertime, in addition to their being plenty

1609
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:25,280
Speaker 1: of good forage in aquatic habitats, you see moose in

1610
01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:29,800
Speaker 1: the water like all day. They're there to escape insects,

1611
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:34,559
Speaker 1: they're there to access really rich food supplies, and they're

1612
01:36:34,560 --> 01:36:37,840
Speaker 1: also there to cool down. So the issue of keeping

1613
01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:39,800
Speaker 1: cool in the summer for a moose is a way

1614
01:36:39,840 --> 01:36:42,599
Speaker 1: bigger deal than the issue of keeping warm in the winter.

1615
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:45,280
Speaker 1: So in a place like Maine, throughout the southern extent

1616
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:52,000
Speaker 1: of their range, and as we have climate warming and

1617
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:57,840
Speaker 1: temperature envelopes shifting north, it gets increasingly difficult for moose

1618
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:00,679
Speaker 1: to thermal regulate in the summer. At the lower extend

1619
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:06,120
Speaker 1: of their range. There's a a very real cost to

1620
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:11,400
Speaker 1: their fitness associated with those warmer temperatures in the summer,

1621
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:14,360
Speaker 1: a longer summer season. But that's just the beginning of

1622
01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:19,360
Speaker 1: the story, because there are a number of other complex

1623
01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 1: interactions occurring on the landscape associated with relatively mild winters

1624
01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:30,000
Speaker 1: relatively warm summers that planned this as well. And part

1625
01:37:30,040 --> 01:37:34,679
Speaker 1: of the story here is with warmer winters milder winters,

1626
01:37:35,479 --> 01:37:40,960
Speaker 1: um the ticks do much better at over wintering. So

1627
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:44,160
Speaker 1: there are there are a number of examples of kind

1628
01:37:44,160 --> 01:37:49,920
Speaker 1: of natural biological processes that can really ramp up in

1629
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:54,040
Speaker 1: the absence of super cold winters, ticks being one another.

1630
01:37:54,040 --> 01:37:58,679
Speaker 1: One is um the example of some of these pine

1631
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:02,160
Speaker 1: beetle infestation in the West, where it takes a really

1632
01:38:02,200 --> 01:38:04,000
Speaker 1: cold winter to kill off the larvae, and in the

1633
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: absence of a cold winter for a few years, you

1634
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:10,720
Speaker 1: end up with these huge insect outbreaks, these huge insect epidemics.

1635
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:18,760
Speaker 1: And another example would be um relatively warm falls and

1636
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 1: springs and wetter weather resulting in more episodic hemorrhagic disease

1637
01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:30,559
Speaker 1: outbreaks in white tail deer e h D. So changes

1638
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:34,240
Speaker 1: in weather associated with our climate can have major impacts

1639
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:37,680
Speaker 1: to wildlife and habitat look in those cases, it just

1640
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:43,000
Speaker 1: doesn't get cold enough, doesn't Yes, And with the moose

1641
01:38:43,040 --> 01:38:45,719
Speaker 1: population in Maine, part of the story is these these

1642
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:49,600
Speaker 1: tick loads getting to be so severe than portions of

1643
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:54,400
Speaker 1: the state. They're clearly having a major impact on the

1644
01:38:54,479 --> 01:38:59,200
Speaker 1: survivorship of moose. So not only is it harder for

1645
01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:03,559
Speaker 1: them to last through warmer summers, but then they're they're

1646
01:39:03,560 --> 01:39:07,120
Speaker 1: added on with this heavy load of ticks. But the

1647
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 1: story doesn't end there either, as these as these warmer,

1648
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:15,760
Speaker 1: milder conditions continue to shift north. Another trend is that

1649
01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:20,479
Speaker 1: you have increasing overlap between white tailed deer and moose.

1650
01:39:21,120 --> 01:39:26,240
Speaker 1: The deer dew relatively well. Really cold, gnarly winters are

1651
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:29,960
Speaker 1: much harder for white tails to withstand than for moose

1652
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:35,360
Speaker 1: to withstand, and there's limited evidence to suggest that there's

1653
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:40,040
Speaker 1: direct competition for forage between the two species. Um Some

1654
01:39:40,080 --> 01:39:44,960
Speaker 1: folks think maybe dear are a significant direct competitor with

1655
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:49,000
Speaker 1: moose for forage. Other folks think maybe not. But one

1656
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:51,639
Speaker 1: thing that the white tails do bring with them are

1657
01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:56,919
Speaker 1: these meningeal worms, so another parasite story. And the species

1658
01:39:57,040 --> 01:40:01,720
Speaker 1: name of the maningeal worm is peril of strugilous teneous.

1659
01:40:02,160 --> 01:40:05,479
Speaker 1: So given that that's such a mouthful, you can understand

1660
01:40:05,560 --> 01:40:07,759
Speaker 1: why they like to refer to him as ningel worms.

1661
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:13,719
Speaker 1: And them ninjis are these three layers that wrap around

1662
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:19,200
Speaker 1: the brain and spinal cord of all mammals. And if

1663
01:40:19,200 --> 01:40:21,040
Speaker 1: you ever have heard of anybody going in to get

1664
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:26,320
Speaker 1: like a cerebro spinal fluid tap, that fluid exists between

1665
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:28,960
Speaker 1: a couple of these ma ningel layers, and the whole

1666
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:33,040
Speaker 1: system exists to provide kind of a a shield, like

1667
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:36,120
Speaker 1: a layer of protection and cushioning around these really important

1668
01:40:36,439 --> 01:40:40,680
Speaker 1: spinal marriage Spinal meningitis will come from the same word. Yes, yes,

1669
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:43,879
Speaker 1: So meningitis just means the swelling of the ma ninji's,

1670
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 1: these three layers. So in white tailed deer, this worm,

1671
01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:56,040
Speaker 1: it has a super fascinating um life cycle. And I'll

1672
01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:59,839
Speaker 1: start with the adults laying eggs in the me ninji's

1673
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 1: in these these layers that wrap around the brain and

1674
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:08,440
Speaker 1: the spinal cord. So the adults ladies eggs, the eggs

1675
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:11,559
Speaker 1: on the deer's nostrils. No, so we'll start with an

1676
01:41:11,560 --> 01:41:16,599
Speaker 1: infected and infected white tailed deer with adults that start,

1677
01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:18,920
Speaker 1: and we'll come back around to it. So we'll talk

1678
01:41:18,960 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 1: about the mode of exposure. I'll let you do it,

1679
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:24,040
Speaker 1: but I don't agree. Okay, where do you want to start.

1680
01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:28,880
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it that way. I would start with

1681
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:31,800
Speaker 1: the introduction, all right, But I'm just telling what, dude,

1682
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:36,320
Speaker 1: I'll go with you. So, imagine a white tailed deer

1683
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:40,639
Speaker 1: is walking through the woods, dicking around in the woods,

1684
01:41:41,040 --> 01:41:46,320
Speaker 1: cruising along and whirling around. Yeah, it comes upon a

1685
01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:51,919
Speaker 1: a tuft of it's preferred browse pick a pick a species.

1686
01:41:51,960 --> 01:41:55,439
Speaker 1: What do you want to be eaten? Man? See that

1687
01:41:55,479 --> 01:41:57,840
Speaker 1: footage of a deer eating eggs out of a bird nest.

1688
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:03,519
Speaker 1: Pick something, Pick something, pick something more? Yeah, I can't

1689
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:08,360
Speaker 1: pick little baby birds? Uh? Comes across it desized to

1690
01:42:09,400 --> 01:42:12,880
Speaker 1: um can pick a mushroom? Sure? Okay, size of Eta

1691
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:16,360
Speaker 1: Morrell Okay. So this deer comes upon black or white

1692
01:42:16,360 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 1: morele Morchella canicus okay, Morchella canicus. And as it lowers

1693
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:28,000
Speaker 1: its muzzle to nibble upon the head of this morale

1694
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:33,439
Speaker 1: inadvertently without even knowing it has done, so, it happens

1695
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:35,920
Speaker 1: to consume a gastropod. Do you want it to be

1696
01:42:35,960 --> 01:42:40,080
Speaker 1: a snail or a slug because it could be either snail? Okay?

1697
01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:43,600
Speaker 1: So this this two year old dough, which this is

1698
01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:45,439
Speaker 1: making a lot of sense because you find those things

1699
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 1: and Morrel's yes, you do. And it's an interesting part

1700
01:42:49,160 --> 01:42:50,840
Speaker 1: of the story to in terms of the distribution of

1701
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:53,439
Speaker 1: this disease. And I'll come to that. So this two

1702
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:58,760
Speaker 1: year old white tail dough nibbles down on this morale

1703
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 1: mushroom and then is up consuming, inadvertently and unbeknownced to itself,

1704
01:43:03,840 --> 01:43:09,479
Speaker 1: a snail. Okay. That snail is infected, and I will

1705
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:13,080
Speaker 1: come back around to how the snail got infected. But

1706
01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:16,559
Speaker 1: the deer, Yeah, because we're talking about the cycles, right,

1707
01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:19,000
Speaker 1: So you can jump into that circle anywhere along the way.

1708
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:24,840
Speaker 1: So the deer ingests the snail. The snail has an

1709
01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:31,120
Speaker 1: advanced larval phase of this worm living inside of itself,

1710
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:36,719
Speaker 1: inside of it, yes, which it has contracted by eating

1711
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:40,240
Speaker 1: the mucus on a fecal pellet from a different deer.

1712
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:43,639
Speaker 1: I'll come back around to that pellet. Why you wanted

1713
01:43:43,680 --> 01:43:45,760
Speaker 1: to start where you wanted to Start's confusing, but I

1714
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:51,080
Speaker 1: think I'm good. One thing about the listenership of this

1715
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:53,920
Speaker 1: digital radio program is they're a pretty savvy bunch, so

1716
01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:55,559
Speaker 1: they'll be able to they'll be able to track this.

1717
01:43:56,720 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 1: So the dough has consumed omed the snail. Upon doing so,

1718
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:16,080
Speaker 1: the larval phase of the worm is consumed, ends up

1719
01:44:16,080 --> 01:44:21,599
Speaker 1: in the stomach, matures makes it into the stomach wall.

1720
01:44:23,080 --> 01:44:27,719
Speaker 1: From the stomach wall travels to the central nervous system.

1721
01:44:27,920 --> 01:44:32,880
Speaker 1: The blood stream through the bloodstream makes it too. In

1722
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:36,720
Speaker 1: white tailed deer, the meningel tissues the layers around the

1723
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:40,439
Speaker 1: brain and the spinal cord, where it then proceeds to

1724
01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:49,480
Speaker 1: lay eggs. Those eggs hatch into stage one larvae, dislodge

1725
01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:57,680
Speaker 1: travel to the lungs, where they are then coughed up

1726
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:04,439
Speaker 1: by the deer and ingested into the stomach. Wow, at

1727
01:45:04,479 --> 01:45:09,800
Speaker 1: which point in the stomach they are defecated and end

1728
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:14,680
Speaker 1: up in the mucus where a snail or slug consumes

1729
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:18,120
Speaker 1: the mucus that is infected with the larvae. That's another

1730
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:21,200
Speaker 1: thing you see. No, then snails on snails and slugs

1731
01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:25,000
Speaker 1: on snails on droppings. Yeah, they eat that that mucus

1732
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:29,479
Speaker 1: which can be infected. So you have this cycle of

1733
01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:38,280
Speaker 1: adult worm two long too digestive track, two feces, mucus

1734
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 1: two gastropods, snails or slugs consuming it to those snails

1735
01:45:44,040 --> 01:45:51,800
Speaker 1: or slugs than being eaten inadvertently by other servants other ungulates.

1736
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:56,639
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about this worm, though, is that white

1737
01:45:56,640 --> 01:46:03,880
Speaker 1: tailed deer are uniquely able to carry the carry the

1738
01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:11,000
Speaker 1: infection without having really negative consequences associated. So even even

1739
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:14,960
Speaker 1: other deer species, of course, which the moose is one,

1740
01:46:15,360 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 1: but mule deer, moose, caribou all have the potential for

1741
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:30,640
Speaker 1: this infestation. This infection, this parasitism two go beyond the

1742
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:35,640
Speaker 1: maningel layers and actually have the infection end up in

1743
01:46:37,040 --> 01:46:41,960
Speaker 1: their brain tissue. So in white tailed deer the worm

1744
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:46,280
Speaker 1: is limited to existing in the maningeal tissue. In these

1745
01:46:46,280 --> 01:46:49,280
Speaker 1: other species it can end up in the brain and

1746
01:46:50,280 --> 01:46:55,200
Speaker 1: have a major impact, including causing potentially mortality. Is it

1747
01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:58,080
Speaker 1: is it reasonable to assume here that white tailed deer

1748
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:01,120
Speaker 1: have been exposed to this for very very long time.

1749
01:47:01,760 --> 01:47:05,120
Speaker 1: And what's interesting and this this gets to the common

1750
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:08,799
Speaker 1: earlier about you know, seeing a snail or a slug

1751
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:12,200
Speaker 1: on a pile um. That's something I think you see

1752
01:47:12,280 --> 01:47:14,559
Speaker 1: quite a bit when you're in the east. You know,

1753
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:19,800
Speaker 1: these relatively moist forests. This is not an issue that

1754
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:23,920
Speaker 1: we see west of the Great Plains. So this is

1755
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:28,000
Speaker 1: something that in moose populations in Minnesota and Maine has

1756
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:32,120
Speaker 1: been a big issue, but not so much west. And

1757
01:47:32,160 --> 01:47:37,080
Speaker 1: it's thought that those grassland biomes that exist between kind

1758
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:39,799
Speaker 1: of the eastern moose populations in the western moose population

1759
01:47:39,880 --> 01:47:42,799
Speaker 1: serve as a barrier for the spread of this disease.

1760
01:47:43,120 --> 01:47:46,400
Speaker 1: The arid landscapes, right, and those arid landscapes it's poor

1761
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:52,599
Speaker 1: habitat for gastropods, right, So as white tailed deer expand

1762
01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:57,519
Speaker 1: their range northward, they bring with them this worm that

1763
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 1: has the potential to have a very different effect on

1764
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:03,919
Speaker 1: moose than it has on deer. And you could understand

1765
01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:07,759
Speaker 1: moose that are out there foraging, consuming vegetation, and also

1766
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:14,080
Speaker 1: potentially gastropods, there's plenty of opportunity for dear to infect moose.

1767
01:48:15,200 --> 01:48:19,280
Speaker 1: So again getting back to the idea of climate and

1768
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 1: how how changes even if it's a matter of like

1769
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:26,559
Speaker 1: a one year that's particularly warm or dry, and this

1770
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:29,360
Speaker 1: is why there's so much complexity in the system. If

1771
01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:31,200
Speaker 1: you have a hot and dry year, you know that

1772
01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:34,400
Speaker 1: that might be a worse year for gaster pods. If

1773
01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:36,439
Speaker 1: it's hot and dry, snails and slugs aren't going to

1774
01:48:36,479 --> 01:48:39,760
Speaker 1: be doing as as well. But if you have a

1775
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:47,720
Speaker 1: relatively long window of non snow time, that's gonna be

1776
01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:52,719
Speaker 1: a longer window of potential infection when those gaster pods

1777
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:56,560
Speaker 1: can be active. So you have changes in the distribution

1778
01:48:56,600 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 1: of white tail deer, you have changes in the web

1779
01:49:00,080 --> 01:49:03,000
Speaker 1: they're in the climate that have the potential to impact

1780
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:07,439
Speaker 1: the activity and window of exposure opportunity. Through the life

1781
01:49:07,479 --> 01:49:14,439
Speaker 1: history of snails and slugs, you have these thermoregulatory considerations

1782
01:49:14,479 --> 01:49:16,559
Speaker 1: that the species is already existing kind of at the

1783
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:20,600
Speaker 1: limit of its range, its ability to deal with those conditions,

1784
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:25,639
Speaker 1: you have the ticks, and so there's no one answer, right.

1785
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:30,240
Speaker 1: It's a very complex story, but it gets back to

1786
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:36,040
Speaker 1: the topic of compensatory versus additive mortality. One thing is

1787
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:39,679
Speaker 1: for sure, and it is that the decline of moose

1788
01:49:40,360 --> 01:49:43,240
Speaker 1: at the lower limit of their range is not happening

1789
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:47,679
Speaker 1: as a result of hunting. It's happening independent of hunting.

1790
01:49:48,600 --> 01:49:52,839
Speaker 1: But it's very hard for wildlife managers to justify issuing

1791
01:49:52,880 --> 01:49:57,080
Speaker 1: a lot of tags to hunt a population that's in decline.

1792
01:49:58,040 --> 01:50:00,200
Speaker 1: And in another one of the states being affected by

1793
01:50:00,200 --> 01:50:04,280
Speaker 1: these dynamics, the state of Minnesota, which has a very

1794
01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:08,280
Speaker 1: rich history of moose hunting. Um they made the tough

1795
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:12,559
Speaker 1: call in two thousand thirteen to completely stop their moose hunt,

1796
01:50:13,720 --> 01:50:16,640
Speaker 1: and it's some of these same drivers. My understanding is

1797
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:19,120
Speaker 1: in in Maine it's much more of the ticks are

1798
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:22,080
Speaker 1: a way bigger deal. But this story about the ninel

1799
01:50:22,160 --> 01:50:25,160
Speaker 1: worms in the northward expansion of white tailed deer, that's

1800
01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:28,080
Speaker 1: something in in Minnesota that goes back to nineteen twelve

1801
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:30,320
Speaker 1: was the first year that they were really starting to

1802
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:32,400
Speaker 1: try to figure out we've got these declines and moose

1803
01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:35,040
Speaker 1: what's going on. A lot of research has been done

1804
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:39,800
Speaker 1: in Minnesota around these white tail moose interactions. But that's

1805
01:50:39,800 --> 01:50:43,640
Speaker 1: an example where UM in the state of Minnesota, they

1806
01:50:44,280 --> 01:50:48,799
Speaker 1: ran a population viability assessment a few years ago basically

1807
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:54,240
Speaker 1: looking at recruitment and mortality of the moose population, and

1808
01:50:54,280 --> 01:50:56,880
Speaker 1: their projections for the state of Minnesota that it's were

1809
01:50:56,920 --> 01:51:00,200
Speaker 1: that it is possible within the next fifty years they

1810
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:03,799
Speaker 1: might not have moose in Minnesota anymore in the absence

1811
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:11,400
Speaker 1: of any further hunting. So totally appreciate Phil's excitement about

1812
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:16,800
Speaker 1: hunting moose, and having now punched my card as a

1813
01:51:16,800 --> 01:51:20,280
Speaker 1: bona fide moose hunter, I would strongly encourage him to

1814
01:51:20,280 --> 01:51:26,280
Speaker 1: explore possibilities. But these questions, UM, they might seem really

1815
01:51:26,360 --> 01:51:29,200
Speaker 1: simple on their surface. Why won't the state of minister

1816
01:51:29,400 --> 01:51:31,679
Speaker 1: Why won't the state of Maine issue more moose tags?

1817
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:33,519
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to draw a moose tag. And

1818
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:37,360
Speaker 1: then you start getting into the complexities of the system

1819
01:51:37,439 --> 01:51:43,680
Speaker 1: and the specialized evolutionary traits of the moose with this

1820
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:47,559
Speaker 1: disease ecology layered over it, and a changing climate and

1821
01:51:47,600 --> 01:51:50,760
Speaker 1: distribution in white tails layered over it, and what I

1822
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:53,679
Speaker 1: take away from that are a couple of things. One,

1823
01:51:54,280 --> 01:52:00,280
Speaker 1: these management decisions are very complex and difficult. Two, there's

1824
01:52:00,400 --> 01:52:04,920
Speaker 1: huge value in having wildlife professionals on the landscape looking

1825
01:52:04,920 --> 01:52:06,519
Speaker 1: into this stuff, trying to figure out what's going on,

1826
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:13,000
Speaker 1: and then applying that science to management decisions. And one

1827
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:18,599
Speaker 1: other point I'd share is there are other issues, other

1828
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:22,880
Speaker 1: interests being considered in the issuance of tags. That moose

1829
01:52:22,920 --> 01:52:27,960
Speaker 1: population is also UM, something that plenty of other recreational

1830
01:52:28,040 --> 01:52:31,120
Speaker 1: users appreciate and want to see on the landscape. And

1831
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:34,479
Speaker 1: when a state is deciding how many tags to issue,

1832
01:52:34,960 --> 01:52:38,160
Speaker 1: they're taking into consideration providing hunting opportunity. They're also taking

1833
01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:43,679
Speaker 1: into consideration UM, wildlife viewing, and all the other folks

1834
01:52:43,680 --> 01:52:47,080
Speaker 1: that want to be UM involved in the conversation. In

1835
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:56,960
Speaker 1: some states are more UM, more geared towards providing maximized

1836
01:52:57,000 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 1: hunting opportunity. Other states, like what you are saying for

1837
01:53:00,520 --> 01:53:04,320
Speaker 1: the state of Washington, maybe they're trying to balance a

1838
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:08,120
Speaker 1: variety of public values when they're coming to these wildlife

1839
01:53:08,560 --> 01:53:14,439
Speaker 1: UM management decisions in terms of issuing tag allocations. So

1840
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:17,000
Speaker 1: if you're sitting there in the chair of the biologist,

1841
01:53:17,040 --> 01:53:19,080
Speaker 1: whose job it is to say, all right, we are

1842
01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:21,439
Speaker 1: going to issue X number of tags this year, and

1843
01:53:21,479 --> 01:53:25,960
Speaker 1: you've got the social considerations, you've got the disease considerations,

1844
01:53:26,479 --> 01:53:29,680
Speaker 1: You've got all this information at your disposal. It's a

1845
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:34,200
Speaker 1: tough chair to sit in. I think that where someone

1846
01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:39,639
Speaker 1: would wind up becoming frustrated is if you were looking at, well,

1847
01:53:39,680 --> 01:53:44,080
Speaker 1: we don't have a population problem right now, but we're

1848
01:53:44,120 --> 01:53:51,400
Speaker 1: concerned about what climate issues might mean in the future. Therefore,

1849
01:53:51,439 --> 01:53:54,720
Speaker 1: we're gonna throttle back hunting because we have a big

1850
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:57,160
Speaker 1: question mark about what's going on ahead. I think that

1851
01:53:57,160 --> 01:54:00,800
Speaker 1: people could look at that, you get frustrated, so and

1852
01:54:00,840 --> 01:54:02,479
Speaker 1: they could look at it and get frustrated to and

1853
01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:06,400
Speaker 1: in the social consideration thing, where you might where a

1854
01:54:06,439 --> 01:54:08,240
Speaker 1: state might be like, you know what, We're gonna start

1855
01:54:08,280 --> 01:54:11,760
Speaker 1: paying more attention to people who identify as a wildlife

1856
01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:15,960
Speaker 1: viewer and make sure that they're having more opportunity and

1857
01:54:16,120 --> 01:54:20,880
Speaker 1: shift away from a user group that we used to Yeah,

1858
01:54:21,080 --> 01:54:23,320
Speaker 1: like I used to put emphasis on and I could

1859
01:54:23,320 --> 01:54:26,120
Speaker 1: see getting like really frustrated with that. Yeah, I can't

1860
01:54:26,120 --> 01:54:29,599
Speaker 1: to Another piece of the story that we didn't talk

1861
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:32,480
Speaker 1: about is some of the ongoing research that they've done,

1862
01:54:33,160 --> 01:54:36,520
Speaker 1: and one of the more recent moose studies that occurred

1863
01:54:36,640 --> 01:54:40,640
Speaker 1: in Maine, they had very high mortality among a number

1864
01:54:40,640 --> 01:54:45,640
Speaker 1: of colored individuals, thirty of seventy, thirty of seventy. And

1865
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:50,760
Speaker 1: that's a gross simplification of the study. You've got some

1866
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:52,440
Speaker 1: information in front of you, but I'm just I'm just

1867
01:54:52,480 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 1: pulling us some filth. Yeah, so Phil knows about the study.

1868
01:54:55,920 --> 01:54:59,320
Speaker 1: So if you have indicators like that, you know they're

1869
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:03,000
Speaker 1: investing money and research, They're they're tracking the population. He

1870
01:55:03,040 --> 01:55:09,000
Speaker 1: provided some of the historical data and context in his email. UM,

1871
01:55:09,160 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 1: they have information at their disposal that leads them to

1872
01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:14,600
Speaker 1: believe this is a this is a population that is

1873
01:55:14,640 --> 01:55:17,520
Speaker 1: in decline. They're trying to get to the bottom of

1874
01:55:17,600 --> 01:55:20,720
Speaker 1: what the management options are. But it's not it's not

1875
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:24,040
Speaker 1: like they're just thinking, well down the line, this might

1876
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:27,200
Speaker 1: be an issue, so we're gonna make a very conservative

1877
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:33,440
Speaker 1: management call today. They believe there's a need to act today,

1878
01:55:33,600 --> 01:55:36,080
Speaker 1: and they're issuing tags based on the information they have

1879
01:55:36,120 --> 01:55:40,120
Speaker 1: at their disposal. I absolutely agree with you that, UM,

1880
01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:44,320
Speaker 1: it would be a source of frustration if they were

1881
01:55:44,320 --> 01:55:49,320
Speaker 1: taking an overly conservative UM. Management call now thinking there's

1882
01:55:49,360 --> 01:55:52,840
Speaker 1: this long term climate trajectory that they're trying to be

1883
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:56,360
Speaker 1: responsive to. That's not the case. They've got an issue

1884
01:55:56,400 --> 01:55:59,080
Speaker 1: with declining moose. They've got an issue with high mortality.

1885
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:02,560
Speaker 1: There were about hunting being a source of additive mortality

1886
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:06,720
Speaker 1: to that population, very similar to the call in Minnesota

1887
01:56:07,400 --> 01:56:10,080
Speaker 1: to close the hunt. Could they have a few tags

1888
01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:14,360
Speaker 1: being issued in Minnesota? Probably so, But at what point

1889
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 1: do you make the call that you've got enough concern,

1890
01:56:20,840 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 1: sufficient concern about the decline that you need to take action.

1891
01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:27,880
Speaker 1: So I think the throttling back of tags, I certainly

1892
01:56:27,920 --> 01:56:33,160
Speaker 1: would not UM second guests any of my counterparts there

1893
01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:34,440
Speaker 1: in the state who are looking at the day to

1894
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:36,520
Speaker 1: day in and day out and investing time in those

1895
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:41,760
Speaker 1: surveys and having all that information, all that science. UM

1896
01:56:41,800 --> 01:56:44,360
Speaker 1: it really puts people on good footing to be able

1897
01:56:44,360 --> 01:56:47,040
Speaker 1: to make well informed decisions. And getting back to something

1898
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:50,640
Speaker 1: you said earlier about UM the funding and how you know,

1899
01:56:50,680 --> 01:56:52,920
Speaker 1: we should be quick to tell out the fact that

1900
01:56:53,080 --> 01:56:56,640
Speaker 1: hunters and fisher fishermen, in their license dollars are going

1901
01:56:56,680 --> 01:56:59,680
Speaker 1: to do all this good habit at work. We wouldn't

1902
01:56:59,720 --> 01:57:03,120
Speaker 1: have any of these studies occurring in the absence of

1903
01:57:03,120 --> 01:57:06,160
Speaker 1: support from the hunting and fishing community. Either. It's not

1904
01:57:06,280 --> 01:57:09,920
Speaker 1: just money going to support law enforcement and habits at work,

1905
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:14,840
Speaker 1: it's providing all this scientific information that underpins these management decisions.

1906
01:57:15,640 --> 01:57:19,440
Speaker 1: So when you've got such a complicated life history story

1907
01:57:19,480 --> 01:57:23,360
Speaker 1: as this ninel worm, think about how much research went

1908
01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:26,360
Speaker 1: into picking that apart and understanding what the dynamics are,

1909
01:57:26,760 --> 01:57:28,640
Speaker 1: just so you can have information in your hands to

1910
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:31,480
Speaker 1: start to talk about what your management options are. Imagine

1911
01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 1: if you're trying to make a management decision about this

1912
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:36,560
Speaker 1: and you don't understand these nuances about the ecology of

1913
01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:39,560
Speaker 1: what's happening on the landscape. So I come away with

1914
01:57:39,920 --> 01:57:46,320
Speaker 1: just a lot of gratitude and um appreciation for how

1915
01:57:46,520 --> 01:57:50,680
Speaker 1: fundamentally difficult some of these management decisions are. As opposed

1916
01:57:50,720 --> 01:57:54,640
Speaker 1: to a desire to cast stones. I think it's helpful

1917
01:57:54,680 --> 01:57:57,480
Speaker 1: too for someone who starts to think, like, man, I'm

1918
01:57:57,480 --> 01:58:02,880
Speaker 1: starting to detect a TI hunting bias in my state

1919
01:58:02,920 --> 01:58:05,360
Speaker 1: Fish and Game agency. If you if you feel that,

1920
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:07,440
Speaker 1: I think you should probably go and try to find

1921
01:58:07,720 --> 01:58:13,320
Speaker 1: where it's a theme that you're seeing occurring across a

1922
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:17,520
Speaker 1: bunch of different wildlife resources. So if you find that

1923
01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:22,440
Speaker 1: deer tags going through the roof, no real change, no dramatic,

1924
01:58:22,760 --> 01:58:28,200
Speaker 1: inexplicable change, and bear tag numbers, that's a great suggestion.

1925
01:58:28,280 --> 01:58:31,480
Speaker 1: Turkey season is still long, water foul season is still long.

1926
01:58:31,880 --> 01:58:35,080
Speaker 1: Fish trees are still right. But there's this one anomaly, Like, man,

1927
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:37,120
Speaker 1: they're really cutting back on moose. You probably look at

1928
01:58:37,160 --> 01:58:40,000
Speaker 1: that and but like this is probably about moose. I

1929
01:58:40,040 --> 01:58:42,400
Speaker 1: think that's a fair assessment and not seeing some like

1930
01:58:42,560 --> 01:58:44,560
Speaker 1: general thing where they're generally being like, you know what,

1931
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:46,919
Speaker 1: let's try to get fewer hunters out of the landscape.

1932
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:49,680
Speaker 1: But anyway we can think of and will manipulate data

1933
01:58:49,720 --> 01:58:53,880
Speaker 1: and use you know, hypothetical scenarios that could occur in

1934
01:58:53,880 --> 01:58:59,320
Speaker 1: the future as a justification to throttle back hunter participation. Um,

1935
01:58:59,560 --> 01:59:02,080
Speaker 1: you gotta get a big picture. And that's in contrast

1936
01:59:02,120 --> 01:59:05,960
Speaker 1: to a statewide bear hunting closure or a statewide lion

1937
01:59:06,040 --> 01:59:08,360
Speaker 1: hunting closure that's not at all rooted in any kind

1938
01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:10,280
Speaker 1: of science. Yeah, well, you know what, Maine, I'm sure

1939
01:59:10,280 --> 01:59:12,040
Speaker 1: you followed this. There was a they try to do

1940
01:59:12,080 --> 01:59:16,360
Speaker 1: a referendum to ban uh baiting and the hounds for bears,

1941
01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:19,040
Speaker 1: which would basically make you know, a lot of hunting

1942
01:59:19,080 --> 01:59:22,680
Speaker 1: mane very difficult and it got soundly defeat defeated by

1943
01:59:22,720 --> 01:59:25,720
Speaker 1: the voting public. So there you even have. You still

1944
01:59:25,800 --> 01:59:33,120
Speaker 1: have a strongly pro hunting, yeah, voting population in Maine,

1945
01:59:33,360 --> 01:59:38,839
Speaker 1: like they trounced that thing, that initiative referendum. So hopefully

1946
01:59:38,920 --> 01:59:42,360
Speaker 1: that story helps a bit. But dude, if this guy

1947
01:59:42,360 --> 01:59:44,840
Speaker 1: listened to seventy podcasts a one month, I'm having to

1948
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:46,840
Speaker 1: think he's gonna get to this and and and find

1949
01:59:46,880 --> 01:59:53,120
Speaker 1: where we addresses concerns. Hopefill draws his tag, Fee's gonna

1950
01:59:53,200 --> 01:59:54,680
Speaker 1: run into him and put in for I at home. Man,

1951
01:59:54,680 --> 01:59:56,600
Speaker 1: when Pete draws, is gonna have some other guys come

1952
01:59:56,640 --> 01:59:58,200
Speaker 1: in and like blow out his area and be like

1953
01:59:58,240 --> 02:00:02,080
Speaker 1: you na mean? Phil? Is it a quick question? Can

1954
02:00:02,280 --> 02:00:06,240
Speaker 1: those miningel worms transmit to humans? There is not any

1955
02:00:06,320 --> 02:00:09,600
Speaker 1: evidence in the literature I've come upon that um indicates

1956
02:00:09,600 --> 02:00:11,160
Speaker 1: that to be the case. But there is a host

1957
02:00:11,200 --> 02:00:14,880
Speaker 1: of other species I talked about mule, deer, elk, caribou, um,

1958
02:00:15,160 --> 02:00:17,920
Speaker 1: domestic sheep, and goats, And then your bro might be

1959
02:00:17,920 --> 02:00:20,760
Speaker 1: interested to notice, Steve, but llamas and alpacas can also

1960
02:00:20,840 --> 02:00:24,360
Speaker 1: be infected with miningel worm. I didn't want to have

1961
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:28,640
Speaker 1: to think about quitting any more. Else. Yeah, well you

1962
02:00:28,720 --> 02:00:33,120
Speaker 1: are you eating him raw? I mean I have sounded

1963
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:40,240
Speaker 1: very trigger gnosis like parasites swimming around in you can

1964
02:00:40,280 --> 02:00:42,160
Speaker 1: I give a couple of points just to just to

1965
02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:44,120
Speaker 1: add a little bit, a couple of points that came

1966
02:00:44,160 --> 02:00:46,000
Speaker 1: from at our net when I put this moose question

1967
02:00:46,040 --> 02:00:47,720
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, he had a couple of good points.

1968
02:00:48,160 --> 02:00:52,000
Speaker 1: He usually does, so he has He bullet points out

1969
02:00:52,080 --> 02:00:55,560
Speaker 1: a few things to think about here. Um. He points

1970
02:00:55,600 --> 02:00:59,960
Speaker 1: out that residents always have top priority for special trophy animals,

1971
02:01:01,120 --> 02:01:03,440
Speaker 1: and in Maine only ten percent of the tags for

1972
02:01:03,480 --> 02:01:06,440
Speaker 1: each of the four management units. So Maine divides this

1973
02:01:06,520 --> 02:01:11,200
Speaker 1: moves up into four management units. Only ten percent even

1974
02:01:11,200 --> 02:01:15,280
Speaker 1: go to non residents. So he goes on to say

1975
02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:18,760
Speaker 1: that a non residents odds stay proportionately the same as

1976
02:01:18,800 --> 02:01:22,800
Speaker 1: everyone else and vary with how many Georgia and other

1977
02:01:22,840 --> 02:01:27,320
Speaker 1: nonresident guys are applying for any given tag. Um. He

1978
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:31,120
Speaker 1: says that people in Maine are inherently conditioned to having

1979
02:01:31,160 --> 02:01:36,560
Speaker 1: a very conservative number of hunting tags. Uh, I mean,

1980
02:01:36,600 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 1: they'd like to play it safe, and proposed increases in

1981
02:01:40,760 --> 02:01:45,000
Speaker 1: tag allocations are often met with considerable pushback. He says

1982
02:01:45,000 --> 02:01:49,520
Speaker 1: there's a cultural social aspect here that a person from

1983
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:54,600
Speaker 1: Georgia may not fully appreciate um because apparently a few

1984
02:01:54,640 --> 02:01:57,360
Speaker 1: years ago the department did get more aggressive and issued

1985
02:01:57,400 --> 02:02:01,400
Speaker 1: more tags, more moose tags, and happened to coincide with

1986
02:02:01,440 --> 02:02:05,000
Speaker 1: one of the big tick outbreaks that resulted and higher

1987
02:02:05,000 --> 02:02:08,920
Speaker 1: than expected mortality. It was a double whammy, if you will,

1988
02:02:09,320 --> 02:02:11,120
Speaker 1: and they took a lot of ship from the public.

1989
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:16,480
Speaker 1: He also says, in the last ten years, they've perfected

1990
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:22,360
Speaker 1: better survey methods, data and modeling approaches, and they're probably

1991
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:27,480
Speaker 1: operating now on better population estimates than they were operating

1992
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:31,880
Speaker 1: on in past years. So they may have had assumptions

1993
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:35,000
Speaker 1: about how many moves they had that were different than

1994
02:02:35,040 --> 02:02:38,080
Speaker 1: what they're now thinking is true. And if you're shooting

1995
02:02:38,120 --> 02:02:41,720
Speaker 1: for those certain percentages, you're going to see a lowering

1996
02:02:41,760 --> 02:02:46,600
Speaker 1: just because you're operating on better information. He also goes

1997
02:02:46,640 --> 02:02:49,400
Speaker 1: down and say this where tick outbreaks have had the

1998
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:53,800
Speaker 1: highest impact, the department would like to kill more animals

1999
02:02:53,840 --> 02:02:57,879
Speaker 1: to reduce densities. But as you might guess, the public

2000
02:02:58,000 --> 02:03:01,840
Speaker 1: doesn't get that too well, meaning they're gonna say you

2001
02:03:01,880 --> 02:03:05,640
Speaker 1: want to kill more moose who are already dying from ticks,

2002
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:11,000
Speaker 1: and they're gonna push back on this good stuff, man,

2003
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:18,760
Speaker 1: deadly edly. Um uh, I didn't even get to the

2004
02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:23,480
Speaker 1: main thing I wanted to talk about. Man, what was that?

2005
02:03:24,000 --> 02:03:27,640
Speaker 1: We've covered some ground, dude, Oh my god? What it

2006
02:03:27,680 --> 02:03:31,920
Speaker 1: maybe I want to talk about? Was the Okay, ny,

2007
02:03:31,960 --> 02:03:33,880
Speaker 1: how long we've been talking here. We've been going for

2008
02:03:33,920 --> 02:03:36,240
Speaker 1: a while. We could do one more at all if

2009
02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:37,760
Speaker 1: you can do it in ten minutes. This is my

2010
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:42,800
Speaker 1: concluding thought. We have over the months, got many, many

2011
02:03:42,800 --> 02:03:46,080
Speaker 1: requests for comment about an issue that's going on in

2012
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:50,560
Speaker 1: Alaska that's been generating a ton of headlines here in

2013
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:52,760
Speaker 1: the lower forty eight in the national medium. It has

2014
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:58,800
Speaker 1: to do with something that's happened with certain hunting practices

2015
02:03:58,960 --> 02:04:05,960
Speaker 1: being banned on certain lands in Alaska. UM. To give

2016
02:04:05,960 --> 02:04:12,480
Speaker 1: you a little bit of background, Uh, states manage their

2017
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:16,120
Speaker 1: own wildlife, and with exceptions of if something is protected

2018
02:04:16,160 --> 02:04:19,960
Speaker 1: under the Endangered Species Act or it has federal oversight

2019
02:04:19,960 --> 02:04:24,600
Speaker 1: because it's migratory and actually moves very fluidly across geopolitical boundaries,

2020
02:04:25,080 --> 02:04:27,160
Speaker 1: right then the federal government was going to provide some

2021
02:04:27,200 --> 02:04:31,360
Speaker 1: management oversight so that one state is inadvertently screwing another

2022
02:04:31,400 --> 02:04:34,920
Speaker 1: state over, meaning you kill all the ducks. Let's just

2023
02:04:34,960 --> 02:04:38,160
Speaker 1: say you were to kill all the ducks in Alaska, Well,

2024
02:04:38,200 --> 02:04:40,440
Speaker 1: a dude in Texas is gonna have, you know, or

2025
02:04:40,520 --> 02:04:45,120
Speaker 1: a dude down in the you know, the valley in California.

2026
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:48,000
Speaker 1: You've just screwed that guy over. So there's some insulation

2027
02:04:48,120 --> 02:04:50,760
Speaker 1: from one state making a bad move on migratory stuff. NASA,

2028
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:53,000
Speaker 1: we might have federal oversight, but generally if things aren't

2029
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:56,040
Speaker 1: you know, another example like marine mammals, there's a Federal

2030
02:04:56,080 --> 02:04:59,440
Speaker 1: Marine Mammal Protection Act, but generally the state manages on

2031
02:04:59,520 --> 02:05:03,720
Speaker 1: wildlife as it sees fit um. In two thousand fifteen,

2032
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:09,960
Speaker 1: during the Obama administration, there was a ruling that came

2033
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:14,840
Speaker 1: through the Interior Department at the time that eliminated certain

2034
02:05:15,200 --> 02:05:19,040
Speaker 1: management tools or certain things that the State of Alaska

2035
02:05:19,080 --> 02:05:22,920
Speaker 1: at times allowed, and they limited their ability. They eliminated

2036
02:05:22,960 --> 02:05:27,879
Speaker 1: the state's ability to use certain management tools on federal

2037
02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:35,360
Speaker 1: preserve land in Alaska. This did not affect the remainder

2038
02:05:35,400 --> 02:05:39,320
Speaker 1: of the state. So about thirteen percent of Alaska is

2039
02:05:39,640 --> 02:05:44,680
Speaker 1: federal preserve and they said, on this thirteen percent of Alaska,

2040
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:48,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna eliminate such things as the ability to um

2041
02:05:48,240 --> 02:05:52,040
Speaker 1: shoot caribou from a boat, so you'd use a boat

2042
02:05:52,120 --> 02:05:55,520
Speaker 1: to go shoot a swimming cariboo. Um, that you would

2043
02:05:55,560 --> 02:06:00,280
Speaker 1: be able to use dogs or bait for hunting bears,

2044
02:06:01,480 --> 02:06:06,080
Speaker 1: that you would have wolf and bear seasons that were

2045
02:06:06,160 --> 02:06:12,680
Speaker 1: opened during spring like denning and calving and pup raising

2046
02:06:12,680 --> 02:06:18,280
Speaker 1: times of year. This was like deeply unpopular with the

2047
02:06:18,320 --> 02:06:24,120
Speaker 1: Alaska Department Fishing Game because it would be similar to

2048
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:27,240
Speaker 1: let's say you have a city like let's let's say

2049
02:06:27,320 --> 02:06:29,320
Speaker 1: take New York and they have all their traffic laws

2050
02:06:29,320 --> 02:06:32,080
Speaker 1: and their traffic laws work very well. No one can

2051
02:06:32,120 --> 02:06:34,160
Speaker 1: look and say, man, your traffic laws are screwed up.

2052
02:06:34,200 --> 02:06:37,120
Speaker 1: But we're gonna do something. If a road passes by

2053
02:06:37,160 --> 02:06:39,760
Speaker 1: a federal building, We're gonna give you a different set

2054
02:06:39,800 --> 02:06:41,800
Speaker 1: of traffic laws that we would like you to enforce.

2055
02:06:42,240 --> 02:06:43,880
Speaker 1: It's not based on the fact that there's a problem

2056
02:06:43,920 --> 02:06:47,520
Speaker 1: with your traffic laws, just we've decided that we think,

2057
02:06:48,360 --> 02:06:51,520
Speaker 1: um that a few things should be different. That you

2058
02:06:51,560 --> 02:06:56,400
Speaker 1: should drive on the uh left side of the road

2059
02:06:57,000 --> 02:06:59,280
Speaker 1: if you're passing federal property, and we'd like you to

2060
02:06:59,320 --> 02:07:01,760
Speaker 1: go in and have the little discrepancies on your landscape

2061
02:07:01,800 --> 02:07:06,200
Speaker 1: these management discrepancies with how you're handling traffic and the

2062
02:07:06,280 --> 02:07:10,960
Speaker 1: police there might be like, uh, one was the problem.

2063
02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:13,480
Speaker 1: You're not showing us, you're not demonstrating that we've done

2064
02:07:13,520 --> 02:07:17,280
Speaker 1: something wrong. You're making our jobs much more complicated. It's

2065
02:07:17,320 --> 02:07:20,520
Speaker 1: more complicated for the public to understand what's going on.

2066
02:07:21,000 --> 02:07:24,320
Speaker 1: So we just generally don't like the fact that you're

2067
02:07:24,360 --> 02:07:29,600
Speaker 1: inserting yourself here in this way. Um, and it created

2068
02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:33,440
Speaker 1: some real like states rights federal rights issues. So now

2069
02:07:33,800 --> 02:07:37,760
Speaker 1: the State Department, I'm sorry, Now the Interior Department is

2070
02:07:37,840 --> 02:07:43,000
Speaker 1: moving to correct this and they're setting the regulations back

2071
02:07:43,160 --> 02:07:46,600
Speaker 1: to the way they were prior to this earlier law

2072
02:07:46,640 --> 02:07:50,600
Speaker 1: that went into place in making it that the state

2073
02:07:50,640 --> 02:07:54,280
Speaker 1: can manage wildlife as it sees fit on federal preserves

2074
02:07:54,320 --> 02:07:56,960
Speaker 1: as they had always done except for this narrow window

2075
02:07:57,040 --> 02:08:00,320
Speaker 1: of time of three years when they weren't able to

2076
02:08:00,320 --> 02:08:05,360
Speaker 1: do certain practices of the state. As the way it's

2077
02:08:05,440 --> 02:08:10,040
Speaker 1: covered though, and the media is it's like they're changing

2078
02:08:10,080 --> 02:08:14,640
Speaker 1: the laws so that people can now go dig cubs

2079
02:08:14,680 --> 02:08:19,320
Speaker 1: out of the den and kill them. Okay, where does

2080
02:08:19,360 --> 02:08:21,440
Speaker 1: that come from? When someone says that, what are they

2081
02:08:21,480 --> 02:08:23,400
Speaker 1: talking about? What they're talking about is this. There are

2082
02:08:23,400 --> 02:08:27,640
Speaker 1: some areas in Alaska where they have a lot of

2083
02:08:27,720 --> 02:08:30,600
Speaker 1: black bears. Let's say they have tons of black bears,

2084
02:08:31,200 --> 02:08:34,280
Speaker 1: not a lot of harvest upset black bears, and for

2085
02:08:34,400 --> 02:08:37,280
Speaker 1: management's sake, they just say that there's no close season

2086
02:08:37,320 --> 02:08:41,400
Speaker 1: on black bears. A person is allowed to black bears

2087
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:45,760
Speaker 1: a year, no close season. Someone might look at that

2088
02:08:45,840 --> 02:08:49,040
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, if that's the case, I suppose

2089
02:08:49,160 --> 02:08:52,680
Speaker 1: that means you could go dig a bear out of

2090
02:08:52,680 --> 02:08:55,520
Speaker 1: its den and kill it. But does that mean that

2091
02:08:55,600 --> 02:09:00,520
Speaker 1: anyone actually does this? Already right now, seven percent of

2092
02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:03,920
Speaker 1: Alaska is already open to people pulling cubs out of

2093
02:09:03,960 --> 02:09:06,720
Speaker 1: dens and killing them. I can't think of a single

2094
02:09:06,960 --> 02:09:12,240
Speaker 1: instance where this has happened outside of the Koyakuk and

2095
02:09:12,600 --> 02:09:16,760
Speaker 1: Native Alaskan group, an indigenous group who resides along the

2096
02:09:16,840 --> 02:09:20,880
Speaker 1: Yukon and Koyukon rivers. They traditionally hunt bears in the

2097
02:09:20,920 --> 02:09:23,080
Speaker 1: winter by digging them out of Den's a practice that

2098
02:09:23,120 --> 02:09:26,760
Speaker 1: they have engaged in for thousands of years. That's how

2099
02:09:26,800 --> 02:09:28,720
Speaker 1: they hunt. Now, if you're the kind of person who

2100
02:09:28,720 --> 02:09:31,640
Speaker 1: likes the sort of cultural imperialism that would come in

2101
02:09:31,680 --> 02:09:33,880
Speaker 1: and tell an indigenous group of people who has acted

2102
02:09:33,920 --> 02:09:35,760
Speaker 1: a certain way for many thousands of years and live

2103
02:09:35,800 --> 02:09:39,200
Speaker 1: in harmony with its environment. That they've got it all wrong,

2104
02:09:39,720 --> 02:09:43,200
Speaker 1: that they're not sportsmanlike because they have a traditional use

2105
02:09:43,320 --> 02:09:45,400
Speaker 1: practice of eating bear met in the winter that they

2106
02:09:45,400 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 1: pull out of den's, then go ahead and be that

2107
02:09:47,280 --> 02:09:49,840
Speaker 1: kind of guy. But as far as what goes on

2108
02:09:50,080 --> 02:09:54,440
Speaker 1: with regular hunters, like people who are operating under sport

2109
02:09:54,480 --> 02:09:58,560
Speaker 1: hunting licenses, it is not a practice to dig cubs

2110
02:09:58,640 --> 02:10:01,200
Speaker 1: out of their dens and kill them. There's no like need,

2111
02:10:01,400 --> 02:10:04,960
Speaker 1: there's no demand. It would be like saying this, if

2112
02:10:05,000 --> 02:10:08,240
Speaker 1: you live in New York and you open your trash

2113
02:10:08,320 --> 02:10:12,040
Speaker 1: can up and you find a little nest of rat

2114
02:10:12,360 --> 02:10:17,360
Speaker 1: babies in your trash can, Okay, it would theoretically be

2115
02:10:17,600 --> 02:10:22,400
Speaker 1: legal for you to take a dull knitting needle and

2116
02:10:22,960 --> 02:10:27,120
Speaker 1: slowly kill all those rat babies with a dull knitting needle.

2117
02:10:27,520 --> 02:10:30,280
Speaker 1: Theoretically one could go do that. So to say that

2118
02:10:30,320 --> 02:10:34,240
Speaker 1: people in New York are allowed to kill rats that

2119
02:10:34,280 --> 02:10:36,200
Speaker 1: they find in their home or in their garbage cans,

2120
02:10:36,240 --> 02:10:38,280
Speaker 1: you could put it that way, or you could be

2121
02:10:38,280 --> 02:10:40,200
Speaker 1: the kind of guy who says it's not illegal for

2122
02:10:40,280 --> 02:10:43,960
Speaker 1: people in New York to brutally slaughter baby rats with

2123
02:10:44,120 --> 02:10:48,800
Speaker 1: dull knitting needles. Because sure, I'm sure if you're the

2124
02:10:48,880 --> 02:10:51,600
Speaker 1: kind of person who reads that that way. Yeah, another

2125
02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:53,400
Speaker 1: way it would be to put it is that you're

2126
02:10:53,400 --> 02:10:57,240
Speaker 1: allowed to like control rats in your home. So like

2127
02:10:57,520 --> 02:10:59,680
Speaker 1: the constant twisting is the other thing is an article

2128
02:10:59,680 --> 02:11:02,720
Speaker 1: and you see news which like because you're because you're

2129
02:11:02,720 --> 02:11:06,040
Speaker 1: allowed to already bait bears depending on where you are

2130
02:11:06,080 --> 02:11:09,520
Speaker 1: in in a three percent or eighties seven percent of Alaska,

2131
02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:12,840
Speaker 1: it's like, now you can kill bears using donuts and bacon,

2132
02:11:13,120 --> 02:11:16,200
Speaker 1: Like the journalists went to such specificity they've called out

2133
02:11:16,240 --> 02:11:18,280
Speaker 1: like they're like, what would be the most egregious sort

2134
02:11:18,280 --> 02:11:20,320
Speaker 1: of bear bait? I guess it would be donuts and bacon,

2135
02:11:20,600 --> 02:11:25,560
Speaker 1: And I'll use that as a headline to explain my story.

2136
02:11:26,520 --> 02:11:28,720
Speaker 1: Or that they said you can use a spotlight to

2137
02:11:28,760 --> 02:11:32,960
Speaker 1: go kill baby cubs in their den. This isn't something

2138
02:11:32,960 --> 02:11:36,960
Speaker 1: anyone's doing. And in fact, just because the state has

2139
02:11:37,000 --> 02:11:40,360
Speaker 1: the ability to make it legal in this new thirteen

2140
02:11:40,400 --> 02:11:42,080
Speaker 1: percent of their land masks and they've already had the

2141
02:11:42,120 --> 02:11:44,040
Speaker 1: ability to make it legal and eight seven percent of

2142
02:11:44,040 --> 02:11:46,640
Speaker 1: their land masks doesn't mean that it already is you

2143
02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:51,320
Speaker 1: can kill caribou from a boat in a couple a

2144
02:11:51,320 --> 02:11:56,160
Speaker 1: couple extremely remote locations north of the Brooks Range. It's

2145
02:11:56,160 --> 02:12:00,560
Speaker 1: a practice generally done by subsistence in digital. This hunters

2146
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:04,760
Speaker 1: who traditionally target caribou as they go through as their

2147
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:08,560
Speaker 1: migration paths take them across some major rivers because other

2148
02:12:08,640 --> 02:12:11,640
Speaker 1: than that, these are inaccessible areas and you cannot get

2149
02:12:11,680 --> 02:12:14,040
Speaker 1: into the areas and transport the meat back. So they

2150
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:17,880
Speaker 1: hunt along rivers, and there's certain bottleneck points where migrating

2151
02:12:17,920 --> 02:12:21,000
Speaker 1: herds of thousands of cariboo will come and encounter a river.

2152
02:12:21,280 --> 02:12:24,680
Speaker 1: It's the only place these people have an opportunity to

2153
02:12:24,920 --> 02:12:28,200
Speaker 1: intersect these herds of cariboo, and that's where they hunt them,

2154
02:12:28,280 --> 02:12:31,800
Speaker 1: is on the river. There is nowhere. In fact, I've

2155
02:12:31,840 --> 02:12:34,840
Speaker 1: hunted all over Laska, I've never hunted in the unit

2156
02:12:35,440 --> 02:12:37,960
Speaker 1: where you could kill a caribou from a boat in

2157
02:12:38,000 --> 02:12:42,480
Speaker 1: the water. So the fact that the state can allow

2158
02:12:42,520 --> 02:12:45,720
Speaker 1: it doesn't even mean that it can be allowed. Where

2159
02:12:45,720 --> 02:12:49,280
Speaker 1: I hunt black bears in Alaska, the state could say

2160
02:12:49,360 --> 02:12:50,920
Speaker 1: you can go dig them out of a den, but

2161
02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:55,360
Speaker 1: you can't. There's a specific season, in a specific quota.

2162
02:12:55,800 --> 02:12:57,960
Speaker 1: You have to apply for a permit. You would get

2163
02:12:58,000 --> 02:13:00,520
Speaker 1: the permit about once every two years if you apply.

2164
02:13:00,840 --> 02:13:03,040
Speaker 1: When you apply, you have to specify whether you want

2165
02:13:03,040 --> 02:13:05,880
Speaker 1: to hunt the spring or the fall season. They both

2166
02:13:05,920 --> 02:13:09,400
Speaker 1: have pramp date parameters around them. If you wound a

2167
02:13:09,480 --> 02:13:13,560
Speaker 1: bear and don't recover, you notch your tag. It's that

2168
02:13:13,840 --> 02:13:19,440
Speaker 1: specific in the legality of it. Okay, So it's not

2169
02:13:19,560 --> 02:13:21,640
Speaker 1: that now Alaska is going to make it that I

2170
02:13:21,640 --> 02:13:24,000
Speaker 1: could go over there and dig baby bears out of

2171
02:13:24,040 --> 02:13:26,560
Speaker 1: their dens and torture them to death, because you already

2172
02:13:26,560 --> 02:13:29,240
Speaker 1: can't anyway. But when they look at when they're trying

2173
02:13:29,240 --> 02:13:34,320
Speaker 1: to do these management practices of maintaining stable populations of

2174
02:13:34,400 --> 02:13:38,760
Speaker 1: cariboan moves often with an eye tord, providing subsistence cultures

2175
02:13:38,880 --> 02:13:42,960
Speaker 1: access two readily available protein sources, and these are things

2176
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:45,360
Speaker 1: they can do in certain cases when they decide they

2177
02:13:45,440 --> 02:13:47,840
Speaker 1: might want to. Doesn't mean it's gonna now be like

2178
02:13:47,880 --> 02:13:53,080
Speaker 1: the wholesale slaughter of baby animals everywhere. It's just it's

2179
02:13:53,160 --> 02:13:58,960
Speaker 1: egregious how poorly represented this has been in the media. Yeah,

2180
02:13:58,960 --> 02:14:01,840
Speaker 1: some of the headlines are outrageous. It's almost become like

2181
02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:06,360
Speaker 1: a joke to kill bears with bacon and doughnuts. It's like, yeah,

2182
02:14:06,560 --> 02:14:09,640
Speaker 1: it's probably not gonna be bacon and donuts, it's gonna

2183
02:14:09,640 --> 02:14:13,760
Speaker 1: be dog food. Oh my god, it drives me nuts.

2184
02:14:13,960 --> 02:14:15,800
Speaker 1: I don't even. It's like, I don't, I can't even.

2185
02:14:16,000 --> 02:14:18,240
Speaker 1: I don't even know where to begin when talking about this.

2186
02:14:18,680 --> 02:14:21,200
Speaker 1: I read an article that, uh that there was an

2187
02:14:21,440 --> 02:14:25,680
Speaker 1: animal advocacy group from Florida that traveled up to Anchorage

2188
02:14:25,880 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 1: to protest all of this, the bear cup killing, and um,

2189
02:14:31,320 --> 02:14:34,520
Speaker 1: they were met with a group, a college group of

2190
02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:39,360
Speaker 1: kids that were all indigenous Native American kids that changed

2191
02:14:39,440 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 1: their mind. I think the group is called Protest one.

2192
02:14:43,840 --> 02:14:47,680
Speaker 1: I'm remembering it correctly, and two advocates are going up

2193
02:14:47,800 --> 02:14:51,480
Speaker 1: to protest for it and uh publicly speak out against

2194
02:14:51,560 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 1: it in this like college club explained it to them

2195
02:14:57,160 --> 02:15:00,600
Speaker 1: their traditional use practice correct, and they went to Florida

2196
02:15:00,640 --> 02:15:04,200
Speaker 1: and had a public statement or released that they change

2197
02:15:04,240 --> 02:15:07,480
Speaker 1: their position on it. This NBC News article points out, well,

2198
02:15:07,480 --> 02:15:10,000
Speaker 1: it kind of the right of the NBCY article kind

2199
02:15:10,040 --> 02:15:12,280
Speaker 1: of goes crazy because pretty soon he's like talking about

2200
02:15:13,040 --> 02:15:14,560
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it has something to do with

2201
02:15:14,600 --> 02:15:16,920
Speaker 1: how Donald Trump's kids have been up to a lask

2202
02:15:16,920 --> 02:15:18,600
Speaker 1: on it. It's like this guy is like grabbing its

2203
02:15:18,640 --> 02:15:21,280
Speaker 1: straws right, like trying to drag anything in and in it.

2204
02:15:21,360 --> 02:15:25,480
Speaker 1: He says, like things that are cruel. Okay, so let's

2205
02:15:25,520 --> 02:15:28,640
Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a minute. If there's if

2206
02:15:28,680 --> 02:15:31,200
Speaker 1: there's a group of people who traditionally hunt cariboo as

2207
02:15:31,200 --> 02:15:33,920
Speaker 1: they're swimming across the river, do you understand anatomy and

2208
02:15:33,960 --> 02:15:36,840
Speaker 1: ballistics and stuff so much that you're saying that that's

2209
02:15:36,920 --> 02:15:41,680
Speaker 1: cruel or are you talking about something else? Because I

2210
02:15:41,720 --> 02:15:45,320
Speaker 1: don't really know. I don't really buy that that shooting

2211
02:15:45,360 --> 02:15:48,480
Speaker 1: a caribou at point blank range out of a boat

2212
02:15:49,600 --> 02:15:51,320
Speaker 1: they're usually shooting in the head when they do this,

2213
02:15:51,760 --> 02:15:55,560
Speaker 1: that that's more cruel then when he's standing on the ground.

2214
02:15:55,840 --> 02:15:58,240
Speaker 1: So you're like, you're trying to like introduce these sort

2215
02:15:58,280 --> 02:16:01,440
Speaker 1: of you're trying to introduce these sort of like subjective

2216
02:16:01,840 --> 02:16:04,560
Speaker 1: words into a discussion where they don't really fit, Like

2217
02:16:04,680 --> 02:16:08,800
Speaker 1: it's not a cruelty issue that you kill a caribou

2218
02:16:08,920 --> 02:16:11,560
Speaker 1: in the water versus on land. I think what you're

2219
02:16:11,640 --> 02:16:13,680
Speaker 1: trying to get at, what this writer is trying to

2220
02:16:13,680 --> 02:16:17,360
Speaker 1: get at as some idea of like sportsmanlike and I'll

2221
02:16:17,360 --> 02:16:20,520
Speaker 1: ask them to like, Okay, Are you really concerned with

2222
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:25,120
Speaker 1: what sportsmanlike or not is that? Are you honestly concerned

2223
02:16:25,120 --> 02:16:27,360
Speaker 1: with that? Are you honestly concerned with what's cruel or

2224
02:16:27,400 --> 02:16:31,720
Speaker 1: not cruel? Or do you kind of just hate the idea?

2225
02:16:32,520 --> 02:16:33,840
Speaker 1: And I would love to know if the sun bitch

2226
02:16:33,879 --> 02:16:36,280
Speaker 1: eats me, because I guarantee does. But you just kind

2227
02:16:36,320 --> 02:16:42,840
Speaker 1: of like hate the idea of people utilizing like renewable resources,

2228
02:16:42,920 --> 02:16:45,640
Speaker 1: and you're gonna jump on any little point you can

2229
02:16:45,680 --> 02:16:51,280
Speaker 1: find to make it seem bad. I sent that to

2230
02:16:51,680 --> 02:16:53,879
Speaker 1: the buddy of mine sent that article to me, and

2231
02:16:53,879 --> 02:16:55,800
Speaker 1: I've already seen it, but he's like, oh, you mean

2232
02:16:55,840 --> 02:16:59,000
Speaker 1: to tell me that NBC News wasn't open to nuance.

2233
02:17:02,080 --> 02:17:05,480
Speaker 1: It's just, oh my god, it's maddening. Michelle, what are

2234
02:17:05,480 --> 02:17:09,440
Speaker 1: your concluding thoughts? I agree with you, it's maddening. Um.

2235
02:17:09,480 --> 02:17:13,320
Speaker 1: But I've been thinking about how our discussion on identifying

2236
02:17:13,360 --> 02:17:16,880
Speaker 1: and sharing our values and motivations of why we hunt,

2237
02:17:17,280 --> 02:17:20,560
Speaker 1: how that kind of should be introduced and tied into

2238
02:17:20,879 --> 02:17:23,039
Speaker 1: the hunt purity scale. I think those should be some

2239
02:17:23,120 --> 02:17:25,880
Speaker 1: variables that we add and uh, I think by the

2240
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:30,240
Speaker 1: end of this grand experiment and UH with meat eater, um,

2241
02:17:30,280 --> 02:17:34,840
Speaker 1: we're gonna end up with a really refined tool scale

2242
02:17:35,480 --> 02:17:37,800
Speaker 1: the problem. And I love the hunt purity scale idea

2243
02:17:37,840 --> 02:17:40,240
Speaker 1: introduced my my brother. I think that it's gonna wind

2244
02:17:40,280 --> 02:17:42,640
Speaker 1: up needing to have like a lot of emotional factors.

2245
02:17:42,640 --> 02:17:45,720
Speaker 1: In fact, you know, I have to start capturing state

2246
02:17:45,760 --> 02:17:48,560
Speaker 1: of mind, right, Yeah, Like how do you define success?

2247
02:17:49,320 --> 02:17:54,080
Speaker 1: There's variables within that, Like it's it's really have their

2248
02:17:54,080 --> 02:17:59,920
Speaker 1: own personal scales scales. There's like it reveals a trem

2249
02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:04,000
Speaker 1: in this amount of bias. So in crafting a hunt

2250
02:18:04,000 --> 02:18:11,560
Speaker 1: purity scale that doesn't reveal personal bias or regional specific activities,

2251
02:18:12,200 --> 02:18:15,600
Speaker 1: like it might be like a person in Texas would

2252
02:18:16,480 --> 02:18:19,800
Speaker 1: uh like inherently they wouldn't get a high score on

2253
02:18:19,920 --> 02:18:24,080
Speaker 1: my brother's Hunt Purity scale because he puts he puts

2254
02:18:24,120 --> 02:18:27,680
Speaker 1: the land management on his own hunt purity scale. So

2255
02:18:27,720 --> 02:18:30,000
Speaker 1: he if he kills the elk on public land, he

2256
02:18:30,040 --> 02:18:33,400
Speaker 1: considers it like harder and more rewarding. But if you

2257
02:18:33,440 --> 02:18:38,520
Speaker 1: live in a state that's privately held, his hunt purity

2258
02:18:38,520 --> 02:18:41,400
Speaker 1: skill doesn't do you any good. It's a lot of

2259
02:18:41,400 --> 02:18:45,000
Speaker 1: personal a lot of personal bias, but super interesting to

2260
02:18:45,080 --> 02:18:48,840
Speaker 1: think about how those how those subjective values play into

2261
02:18:49,080 --> 02:18:54,520
Speaker 1: that whole idea. Carl concluding thoughts, well, you had it,

2262
02:18:54,560 --> 02:18:57,120
Speaker 1: you had when you wanted to get into like a

2263
02:18:57,160 --> 02:18:58,959
Speaker 1: real one. I do, I have a concluder, so ye

2264
02:18:59,200 --> 02:19:01,560
Speaker 1: can you? Can you hit your concluders off? Quiet? You

2265
02:19:01,600 --> 02:19:05,400
Speaker 1: still think about those cold beers? Depends what kind of

2266
02:19:05,400 --> 02:19:10,440
Speaker 1: beer it is. Oh no, if I get side tracked

2267
02:19:10,520 --> 02:19:14,240
Speaker 1: right now, it's still still Turkey, still golblers. But John No,

2268
02:19:14,560 --> 02:19:18,119
Speaker 1: I'll just go ahead and in the name of time

2269
02:19:18,160 --> 02:19:21,480
Speaker 1: and efficiency, I'll pass today because we have a lot

2270
02:19:21,520 --> 02:19:24,200
Speaker 1: ahead of us today. So beat beat. Yeah, I don't

2271
02:19:24,200 --> 02:19:30,360
Speaker 1: have any any singers here, you know, nothing can drop

2272
02:19:30,400 --> 02:19:35,440
Speaker 1: that product. Big epiphanies. Yeah, stay tuned, that's coming. Um yeah,

2273
02:19:35,520 --> 02:19:38,160
Speaker 1: thanks for thanks for inviting men, So stay tuned at

2274
02:19:38,160 --> 02:19:41,040
Speaker 1: stone Glacier dot com, lots lots of coming. Is that

2275
02:19:41,080 --> 02:19:44,760
Speaker 1: what it is Stone Glacier dot com. Yes, yeah, hell

2276
02:19:44,800 --> 02:19:49,119
Speaker 1: of a website. Good backpacks, Yeah, like them, they're backpacks

2277
02:19:49,120 --> 02:19:54,160
Speaker 1: the formative website. Lots thanks to Pete Man. Like info videos.

2278
02:19:55,480 --> 02:19:57,600
Speaker 1: You go there, you know exactly what's going on with

2279
02:19:57,600 --> 02:20:02,320
Speaker 1: your pack. They're good, man, I'm telling you man. The

2280
02:20:02,360 --> 02:20:06,280
Speaker 1: packs though, it's like there's a little bit like when

2281
02:20:06,320 --> 02:20:07,880
Speaker 1: you get it packed, you kind of gotta like that

2282
02:20:08,360 --> 02:20:12,160
Speaker 1: does stuff. At first you're like, uh what, But to me,

2283
02:20:12,280 --> 02:20:14,560
Speaker 1: you start like figuring out how it all works. It's

2284
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:17,119
Speaker 1: like a whole different deal. But some people just want

2285
02:20:17,160 --> 02:20:20,480
Speaker 1: like a bag hooked to a shoulder strap, right, which

2286
02:20:20,480 --> 02:20:22,160
Speaker 1: is the kind of backpass we had when we were kids.

2287
02:20:22,200 --> 02:20:25,400
Speaker 1: Are like canvas sacks with two leather straps on them.

2288
02:20:25,440 --> 02:20:28,039
Speaker 1: But once you get a bag, at first you're like, oh, man,

2289
02:20:28,200 --> 02:20:29,520
Speaker 1: like I got a mess with it. But once you

2290
02:20:29,600 --> 02:20:31,920
Speaker 1: learn to mess with it, it changes everything. Yeah, it's

2291
02:20:31,920 --> 02:20:34,160
Speaker 1: a technical piece of gear, and like any piece of

2292
02:20:34,160 --> 02:20:36,480
Speaker 1: technical piece of gear, there's a learning curve with it,

2293
02:20:36,520 --> 02:20:40,240
Speaker 1: and we certainly encourage people to master that learning curve

2294
02:20:40,280 --> 02:20:43,160
Speaker 1: before you you're standing over a dead elk. Yeah. That

2295
02:20:43,200 --> 02:20:46,000
Speaker 1: it's like an adaptable it's like an adaptable type of

2296
02:20:46,000 --> 02:20:50,320
Speaker 1: backpack that like does a bunch of different things. Yeah,

2297
02:20:50,360 --> 02:20:54,960
Speaker 1: they packed meat. Holler yeah okay, Carl. Literally all right,

2298
02:20:55,040 --> 02:20:57,400
Speaker 1: So yesterday was a long day. I had like a

2299
02:20:57,440 --> 02:21:00,520
Speaker 1: full work day and then flew up from Albuquerque to

2300
02:21:00,680 --> 02:21:05,280
Speaker 1: Bozeman And can I interrupt you from it? Yeah? Yeah,

2301
02:21:05,360 --> 02:21:08,360
Speaker 1: it didn't take long, man, But I'm not gonna say

2302
02:21:08,360 --> 02:21:10,320
Speaker 1: another word appens. But I want to point something out.

2303
02:21:10,800 --> 02:21:14,000
Speaker 1: I'd like you to justify this. I like to think

2304
02:21:14,520 --> 02:21:19,360
Speaker 1: that when someone does a concluder that it's informed by

2305
02:21:19,400 --> 02:21:22,560
Speaker 1: what happened here today. But you're throwing a concluder at

2306
02:21:22,640 --> 02:21:28,200
Speaker 1: us that is like a preconceived concluder. Yeah, it is

2307
02:21:28,920 --> 02:21:32,480
Speaker 1: has your So this is my question. Is your concluder?

2308
02:21:32,920 --> 02:21:35,000
Speaker 1: And I don't care, but do you feel that your

2309
02:21:35,040 --> 02:21:38,840
Speaker 1: concluder has been influenced by today's conversation? Oh? Yeah, Oh really, Okay,

2310
02:21:38,840 --> 02:21:41,720
Speaker 1: go ahead, I'm done. Yeah, because you know, you've had

2311
02:21:41,720 --> 02:21:45,440
Speaker 1: a chance to talk a little bit about um kind

2312
02:21:45,440 --> 02:21:51,600
Speaker 1: of the the psychology, the the spiritual aspects of being

2313
02:21:51,640 --> 02:21:54,320
Speaker 1: involved actively in these systems. We've talked about that a

2314
02:21:54,320 --> 02:21:56,720
Speaker 1: bit today and I did take the conversation there because

2315
02:21:56,720 --> 02:22:00,120
Speaker 1: it's been on my mind. And UM, where I was

2316
02:22:00,160 --> 02:22:03,200
Speaker 1: going with my concluder is that yesterday was a long

2317
02:22:03,280 --> 02:22:06,280
Speaker 1: day and when I finally got into Bozeman last night

2318
02:22:06,400 --> 02:22:07,800
Speaker 1: was putting my head on the pill. I had a

2319
02:22:07,800 --> 02:22:11,039
Speaker 1: hard time falling asleep right off the bat, and I

2320
02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:17,240
Speaker 1: had these these few sort of recent um pieces of

2321
02:22:17,280 --> 02:22:21,040
Speaker 1: information floating around in my head in in an interesting concoction,

2322
02:22:21,240 --> 02:22:23,400
Speaker 1: and I'll try to lay it out so folks can

2323
02:22:23,440 --> 02:22:26,680
Speaker 1: follow me here. But what happened was I got picked

2324
02:22:26,760 --> 02:22:30,720
Speaker 1: up by a by a hired car at the airport

2325
02:22:31,000 --> 02:22:33,880
Speaker 1: and was driving along with this dude, you know, making

2326
02:22:33,879 --> 02:22:41,280
Speaker 1: some small talk apt apot dependent uh ride ride hailing service.

2327
02:22:42,320 --> 02:22:44,280
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm making small talk with the driver,

2328
02:22:44,400 --> 02:22:48,040
Speaker 1: a nice guy, um, talking about our families, and he

2329
02:22:48,360 --> 02:22:50,840
Speaker 1: mentioned he'd been married for thirty six years, right, and

2330
02:22:50,840 --> 02:22:52,800
Speaker 1: I'm coming up on my tenth anniversary this year. I

2331
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:55,880
Speaker 1: was like, he's still yea. And so when I meet people,

2332
02:22:56,200 --> 02:22:58,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a fan of trying to tap into

2333
02:22:58,680 --> 02:23:01,320
Speaker 1: the wisdom of our elders, you know, So if I

2334
02:23:01,360 --> 02:23:04,200
Speaker 1: meet somebody who's been married for thirty six years, I'm

2335
02:23:04,200 --> 02:23:08,040
Speaker 1: always interested to hear some words of wisdom. So I

2336
02:23:08,080 --> 02:23:13,200
Speaker 1: took the conversation there, and he, I think, saw that

2337
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:17,840
Speaker 1: as an opportunity to proselytize a little bit about his faith.

2338
02:23:19,600 --> 02:23:22,039
Speaker 1: And he's like, as long as you're asking me for advice,

2339
02:23:22,080 --> 02:23:23,520
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I think is the main piece

2340
02:23:23,520 --> 02:23:26,320
Speaker 1: of advice. Yeah, yeah, which is cool. I mean I'm

2341
02:23:26,360 --> 02:23:29,440
Speaker 1: open minded, and I've got friends from all different religious

2342
02:23:29,440 --> 02:23:32,920
Speaker 1: backgrounds and secular backgrounds, and I'm always interested to hear

2343
02:23:32,959 --> 02:23:36,920
Speaker 1: what folks believe at their cores. And so this guy

2344
02:23:37,840 --> 02:23:44,560
Speaker 1: he summarized his perspectives on his religious faith as being

2345
02:23:46,120 --> 02:23:51,680
Speaker 1: the goal of trying to walk through life as if

2346
02:23:51,680 --> 02:23:57,000
Speaker 1: you're in a crowd without pushing anybody, Like navigating through

2347
02:23:57,040 --> 02:24:01,640
Speaker 1: a crowd without pushing anybody, all right. And I've never

2348
02:24:01,680 --> 02:24:04,320
Speaker 1: heard anybody refer to the refer to their faith in

2349
02:24:04,320 --> 02:24:07,040
Speaker 1: that manner. So I thought that was an interesting sort

2350
02:24:07,040 --> 02:24:10,720
Speaker 1: of piece of wisdom. And I think right now, um,

2351
02:24:10,720 --> 02:24:14,200
Speaker 1: in our in our culture as a country and in

2352
02:24:14,440 --> 02:24:16,840
Speaker 1: our culture as a globe, there's a lot of people

2353
02:24:16,879 --> 02:24:21,119
Speaker 1: pushing each other, um. And so this idea of trying

2354
02:24:21,160 --> 02:24:25,160
Speaker 1: to navigate in a way where you're mindful of other people,

2355
02:24:25,400 --> 02:24:29,440
Speaker 1: still moving, still moving, but mindful, right, I thought that

2356
02:24:29,520 --> 02:24:31,640
Speaker 1: was cool. And then as I was trying to fall

2357
02:24:31,640 --> 02:24:33,120
Speaker 1: asleep less and I was thinking about that, and then

2358
02:24:33,160 --> 02:24:36,119
Speaker 1: I was thinking about a couple of papers, like scientific

2359
02:24:36,160 --> 02:24:39,360
Speaker 1: papers that will include in the show notes so people

2360
02:24:39,360 --> 02:24:41,120
Speaker 1: can dive a little deeper if they're interested in this.

2361
02:24:41,760 --> 02:24:43,680
Speaker 1: And they're both very very recent papers that have been

2362
02:24:43,720 --> 02:24:47,840
Speaker 1: picked up in the popular press. Um. The first paper

2363
02:24:48,720 --> 02:24:54,200
Speaker 1: is titled the Biomass Distribution on Earth, and this group

2364
02:24:54,240 --> 02:25:01,320
Speaker 1: of scientists UM basically tried to assess in terms of

2365
02:25:01,440 --> 02:25:05,320
Speaker 1: carbon weight, if you take all the life on the planet,

2366
02:25:05,520 --> 02:25:09,360
Speaker 1: how is it distributed? And then how has it changed

2367
02:25:10,160 --> 02:25:13,080
Speaker 1: during the time that human beings have been on the planet.

2368
02:25:13,879 --> 02:25:16,680
Speaker 1: And there's some incredible takeaways. And if if folks are

2369
02:25:16,720 --> 02:25:19,600
Speaker 1: even remotely interested, UM, please take a look at the

2370
02:25:19,600 --> 02:25:22,520
Speaker 1: paper itself, because I'm going to do a very huge

2371
02:25:22,560 --> 02:25:25,600
Speaker 1: disservice by just skimming. Give us, give us a zinger,

2372
02:25:26,080 --> 02:25:32,400
Speaker 1: a few stats. Okay, so right now today, and and

2373
02:25:32,480 --> 02:25:35,680
Speaker 1: this is the units here are giga tons, which is

2374
02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:38,280
Speaker 1: like a huge amount of carbon. It's some if you

2375
02:25:38,320 --> 02:25:43,160
Speaker 1: imagine one kilogram and then put twelve zeros after it,

2376
02:25:43,640 --> 02:25:45,959
Speaker 1: that's a gig a ton of carbon. And the reason

2377
02:25:46,040 --> 02:25:48,280
Speaker 1: they chose giga tons of carbon is because it it

2378
02:25:48,400 --> 02:25:51,039
Speaker 1: controls for all the creatures who have like a lot

2379
02:25:51,080 --> 02:25:55,000
Speaker 1: of water in their bodies, so it kind of normalizes

2380
02:25:55,040 --> 02:25:59,959
Speaker 1: among plants and animals. But a couple of takeaways are

2381
02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:05,240
Speaker 1: that humans represent an infinitesimal fraction of the total weight

2382
02:26:05,280 --> 02:26:08,760
Speaker 1: of biomass, but during the course of our existence, we

2383
02:26:08,840 --> 02:26:12,400
Speaker 1: have influenced this distribution of biomass, unlike anything that has

2384
02:26:12,440 --> 02:26:16,240
Speaker 1: ever existed in the history of the planet, right, And

2385
02:26:16,280 --> 02:26:23,960
Speaker 1: we've done that by reducing the amount of wild animals

2386
02:26:24,120 --> 02:26:27,879
Speaker 1: and dramatically increasing the amount of domestic animals to the

2387
02:26:27,879 --> 02:26:35,879
Speaker 1: point that today um livestock represents zero point one gigatons

2388
02:26:36,800 --> 02:26:42,120
Speaker 1: of the biomass compared to wild mammals representing zero point

2389
02:26:42,240 --> 02:26:46,800
Speaker 1: zero zero seven gigatons. And that's for mammals. If you

2390
02:26:46,840 --> 02:26:52,840
Speaker 1: look at birds, domestic birds zero point zero zero five

2391
02:26:53,640 --> 02:26:57,320
Speaker 1: compared to wild birds zero point zero zero two. So

2392
02:26:57,400 --> 02:26:59,160
Speaker 1: there are more and this is in terms of biomass,

2393
02:26:59,200 --> 02:27:02,320
Speaker 1: more bio massive domestic birds more than twice as much

2394
02:27:02,640 --> 02:27:05,560
Speaker 1: biomass of domestic birds as wildbirds. The other day, my

2395
02:27:05,640 --> 02:27:08,440
Speaker 1: kid was asking me if there were more roly polies

2396
02:27:08,560 --> 02:27:12,800
Speaker 1: or people, there are more roly pollies. I said, there's

2397
02:27:12,840 --> 02:27:15,760
Speaker 1: more roly polies in your state than there are people

2398
02:27:17,400 --> 02:27:22,360
Speaker 1: on Earth. But then we got into like adjusting for size,

2399
02:27:22,400 --> 02:27:25,160
Speaker 1: and I was explaining that as far as large mammals go,

2400
02:27:25,560 --> 02:27:30,480
Speaker 1: there are far more people than any large mammal of

2401
02:27:30,560 --> 02:27:33,440
Speaker 1: comparable weight. And if you if you want to go

2402
02:27:33,480 --> 02:27:37,640
Speaker 1: with weight, if you take humans and our live stock

2403
02:27:38,520 --> 02:27:45,280
Speaker 1: and put us together, we outweigh the entire world. Of

2404
02:27:45,400 --> 02:27:50,800
Speaker 1: vertebrates except fish. There are more humans and livestock in

2405
02:27:50,879 --> 02:27:54,560
Speaker 1: terms of biomass than all of their vertebrates if you

2406
02:27:54,560 --> 02:27:56,400
Speaker 1: put fish out of the equation, because there's a there's

2407
02:27:56,400 --> 02:27:58,600
Speaker 1: a lot of weight and fish, and it's in the

2408
02:27:59,160 --> 02:28:05,240
Speaker 1: water covers our planet. Right, So the paper talks about

2409
02:28:05,400 --> 02:28:09,160
Speaker 1: our contributions to species loss and biomass loss during the

2410
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:13,200
Speaker 1: coortinary mega fontal extinction. We get a back up from it. Yeah,

2411
02:28:13,959 --> 02:28:17,920
Speaker 1: everything with a backbone on land, everything with a backbone,

2412
02:28:18,040 --> 02:28:23,440
Speaker 1: it's not a fit. Does all the whales? Yeah, the

2413
02:28:23,480 --> 02:28:27,160
Speaker 1: blue whale being the largest creature. To check this out,

2414
02:28:27,240 --> 02:28:29,480
Speaker 1: marine mammals, if you want to go to marine mammals,

2415
02:28:31,040 --> 02:28:37,640
Speaker 1: they have declined from point zero two giga tons to

2416
02:28:37,840 --> 02:28:41,040
Speaker 1: point zero zero four giga tons, which is a fivefold

2417
02:28:41,120 --> 02:28:46,560
Speaker 1: loss in marine mammal biomass as a result of human exploitation.

2418
02:28:47,920 --> 02:28:53,720
Speaker 1: So this paper is really fascinating, um and in particular

2419
02:28:54,160 --> 02:29:00,560
Speaker 1: the conversation about the change that this you know, horrified

2420
02:29:00,920 --> 02:29:06,640
Speaker 1: primate that represents just a tiny little fraction of the

2421
02:29:06,640 --> 02:29:12,920
Speaker 1: global biomass has contributed to just shifting the distribution. So

2422
02:29:14,040 --> 02:29:18,680
Speaker 1: today now the vast majority of of biomass is woody

2423
02:29:18,800 --> 02:29:25,480
Speaker 1: vegetation fifty giga tons of um total carbon fifty giga

2424
02:29:25,520 --> 02:29:31,000
Speaker 1: tons of that as plants, but based on land use change,

2425
02:29:31,560 --> 02:29:35,680
Speaker 1: it's estimated in the paper we have lost half the

2426
02:29:35,720 --> 02:29:42,879
Speaker 1: global biomass of plants. So if you consider that the

2427
02:29:43,080 --> 02:29:47,120
Speaker 1: implications associated with our our existence, our growth, and our

2428
02:29:47,160 --> 02:29:50,720
Speaker 1: ability to thrive on the planet, we have had, you know,

2429
02:29:51,040 --> 02:29:54,560
Speaker 1: to put it, very mildly and outsized impact on the

2430
02:29:54,600 --> 02:29:57,960
Speaker 1: ecology of the Earth. So I've been thinking about that paper, okay,

2431
02:29:58,080 --> 02:30:01,520
Speaker 1: and then coupled with the taxi driver, hold on for

2432
02:30:01,520 --> 02:30:06,760
Speaker 1: a minute, I promise I'm going to conclude shortly. Then

2433
02:30:06,760 --> 02:30:09,520
Speaker 1: there's this other paper that will also post about the

2434
02:30:09,600 --> 02:30:14,080
Speaker 1: changing attitudes people have towards natural resources. And this is

2435
02:30:14,080 --> 02:30:17,560
Speaker 1: a paper published by some researchers from Colorado State and

2436
02:30:17,600 --> 02:30:21,119
Speaker 1: Ohio State in biological conservation. The lead authors guy named

2437
02:30:21,120 --> 02:30:26,240
Speaker 1: Michael Manfredo, and they talk about people who either have

2438
02:30:28,000 --> 02:30:31,440
Speaker 1: domination type values towards wildlife and they also refer to

2439
02:30:31,520 --> 02:30:35,200
Speaker 1: these as more traditional values. So the idea that wildlife

2440
02:30:35,200 --> 02:30:39,800
Speaker 1: are here to benefit people. Um, you know, this idea

2441
02:30:39,840 --> 02:30:43,920
Speaker 1: of like the subservience of wildlife to human beings as

2442
02:30:43,959 --> 02:30:48,520
Speaker 1: opposed to mutualist values which are on the rise as

2443
02:30:48,560 --> 02:30:53,920
Speaker 1: we become more detached from the land increasingly urbanized. These

2444
02:30:54,040 --> 02:30:59,039
Speaker 1: mutualist values, which are along the lines of, you know,

2445
02:30:59,120 --> 02:31:01,400
Speaker 1: treating these others BECs in a way where we give

2446
02:31:01,440 --> 02:31:04,800
Speaker 1: them deference. That's on the rise now that we've completely Yeah,

2447
02:31:04,840 --> 02:31:06,360
Speaker 1: the people who are most likely to live in a

2448
02:31:06,360 --> 02:31:09,560
Speaker 1: place where they have completely displaced, well, most likely to

2449
02:31:09,600 --> 02:31:10,880
Speaker 1: be like, you know what, we should treat it all.

2450
02:31:11,200 --> 02:31:14,440
Speaker 1: We should have mutual respect now that we've vanquished it. Yes,

2451
02:31:14,560 --> 02:31:17,199
Speaker 1: so they talk about this paper really focuses on how

2452
02:31:17,840 --> 02:31:23,360
Speaker 1: this this trend towards more mutualistic attitudes about wildlife is

2453
02:31:24,040 --> 02:31:27,039
Speaker 1: is already driving and will continue to drive a lot

2454
02:31:27,080 --> 02:31:32,640
Speaker 1: of conflict around fish and wildlife management decisions. But in

2455
02:31:32,680 --> 02:31:34,480
Speaker 1: the paper they also talk about this idea of being

2456
02:31:34,640 --> 02:31:41,160
Speaker 1: a pluralist, which is someone who feels like fish and

2457
02:31:41,160 --> 02:31:47,000
Speaker 1: wildlife cannon should be used sustainably, but also that fish

2458
02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:50,160
Speaker 1: and wildlife warrant a high degree of reverence and appreciation

2459
02:31:50,360 --> 02:31:51,879
Speaker 1: and we need to figure out how to co exist

2460
02:31:51,959 --> 02:31:56,400
Speaker 1: with them. That's called pluralism. Pluralist. Yeah, so somebody sign

2461
02:31:56,480 --> 02:31:58,720
Speaker 1: me up, dude, totally, I'm right there with you. When

2462
02:31:58,720 --> 02:32:01,240
Speaker 1: they when this paper talks abou ut pluralists. I felt

2463
02:32:01,280 --> 02:32:04,120
Speaker 1: like that's hit in the mark and this is something

2464
02:32:04,240 --> 02:32:05,920
Speaker 1: we could talk a lot more about. But in the

2465
02:32:05,920 --> 02:32:09,440
Speaker 1: interest of my concluding thought, I had this paper about

2466
02:32:09,480 --> 02:32:13,200
Speaker 1: the changing distribution of biomass on the landscape on on

2467
02:32:13,240 --> 02:32:18,520
Speaker 1: the on the planet, the planetary landscape, coupled with this

2468
02:32:18,640 --> 02:32:23,560
Speaker 1: idea of a growing disconnect between our species and the

2469
02:32:23,640 --> 02:32:26,920
Speaker 1: systems in which we evolved, in the systems that still

2470
02:32:26,959 --> 02:32:29,280
Speaker 1: still sustain us, right the flow of energy from the

2471
02:32:29,320 --> 02:32:33,600
Speaker 1: Sun to our bodies, and having all that coupled with

2472
02:32:33,640 --> 02:32:38,520
Speaker 1: this idea that my drivers shared last night of trying

2473
02:32:38,560 --> 02:32:43,600
Speaker 1: to navigate in a crowd without pushing. And I wonder

2474
02:32:44,120 --> 02:32:47,800
Speaker 1: if we as a species are capable of finding a

2475
02:32:47,800 --> 02:32:55,560
Speaker 1: way to operate where we thrive and we can extend

2476
02:32:55,640 --> 02:33:00,520
Speaker 1: this idea of not pushing to all of the non

2477
02:33:00,800 --> 02:33:08,840
Speaker 1: human inhabitants of the planet we occupy. Yeah, it's a

2478
02:33:08,840 --> 02:33:11,320
Speaker 1: good concluder. I don't care if you did have that

2479
02:33:11,320 --> 02:33:16,520
Speaker 1: pretty thought up the warrants it. That's what when I'm

2480
02:33:16,520 --> 02:33:19,279
Speaker 1: when I'm up at night land there trying to fall asleep,

2481
02:33:19,320 --> 02:33:23,320
Speaker 1: that's kind of stuff that's in my mind. And that's

2482
02:33:23,320 --> 02:33:28,760
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that makes me feel supremely fortunate

2483
02:33:29,240 --> 02:33:34,560
Speaker 1: and privileged and grateful to be in this line of work,

2484
02:33:36,840 --> 02:33:39,360
Speaker 1: to be involved on a day to day basis. Yeah,

2485
02:33:39,440 --> 02:33:43,039
Speaker 1: with these tough kind of questions and conversations, you know,

2486
02:33:43,080 --> 02:33:45,960
Speaker 1: and whether we're talking about h