1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: I wake up every morning thinking about that, should I 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: sell on Amazon? But the reality is Amazon owns fifty 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: of the online market share in the the United States. The 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: customers are on Amazon. That's where they're at, And so 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: was it a fantasy? Yeah? We just leave Amazon and 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: be able to survive, But in reality we basically is 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: a business. Jason Boys is an online retailer with nearly 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: twenty years of experience. He runs a multimillion dollar business 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: called Dasity, Inc. What he's describing here is the fundamental 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: dilemma facing business owners who sell through Amazon. Most of 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: us have used Amazon to buy something at some point, 12 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: a book, a phone charger, a pair of socks, so 13 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: we know it's fast and cheap and can be unbelievably 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: convenient if you're the customer. What we don't realize is 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: the extent to which Amazon uses access to its hundreds 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: of millions of customers as leverage to raise the bar 17 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: on people like Jason, pushing them to lower their prices, 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: speed up delivery times, compete harder against other sellers for 19 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: each and every sale. Amazon is projected to sell two 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: eighty three billion dollars in merchandise this year. That's nearly 21 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: half of all online spending in the US over the 22 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: last few years. It took things a step further by 23 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: launching its own line of Amazon branded products. Now, lawmakers 24 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: like Senator Elizabeth Warren are calling out Amazon for this behavior, 25 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: saying it's anti competitive. My view on this is it's 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: a little like baseball. You can be an umpire a platform, 27 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: or you can own teams. That's fine, but you can't 28 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: be an umpire and own one of the teams that's 29 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: in the game. So the principle here is break those 30 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: apart and you can work for the platform part. You 31 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: can work for one of the teams. That's a lot 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: of fun. But if you work for one of the teams, 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: you compete like every other team in America. By and large, 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: businesses have scrambled to jump higher every time Amazon raised 35 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: the are but privately, some sellers say they're being pushed 36 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: to their limits. Not only is it insanely competitive to 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: reach customers, but Jason and others like him are facing 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: a competitor who's potentially unbeatable, and that's Amazon itself. That's 39 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: a star. Contrast to what CEO Jeff Bezos wrote in 40 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: an annual letter to shareholders just two weeks ago, where 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: he boasted about how well these businesses are doing. Perhaps 42 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: it's a sign that Amazon knows it might be seen 43 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: as pushing the limits of its power. I'm brad Stone 44 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: and I'm Spencer Soaper, and you're listening to decrypt it. Okay, Spencer, 45 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: why don't you take it from here? A few weeks ago, 46 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: I flew to Las Vegas for a convention called the 47 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: prosper Show Time of Assistance Down. It's organized independently from Amazon, 48 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: but the whole point of this event is about selling 49 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: things on Amazon. It attracts about people. It's held at 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: the Westgate Hotel, and even though these folks compete with 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: each other on the platform, the vibe is really upbeaten friendly. 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: Everyone's kind of sharing ideas and tricks of the trade. 53 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: They want to know the best way to ship goods 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: from China and what's the latest software to keep track 55 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: of sales, tax obligations law. Just through I find this 56 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: is a great place for talking to people in Amazon Land. 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: It's where I connected with Jason Boyce, who you heard 58 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: from at the start. He's a Marine Corps officer who 59 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: turned an online entrepreneur. He recently moved to New Jersey. 60 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: He's a pretty unassuming and relaxed guy. Kind of reminds 61 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: me of a high school principle. We sat down at 62 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: a table outside the hotel, which just happened to be 63 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: right beneath the airport's white pages, right under the air airport. Yeah, 64 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: should should be okay. Jason's in business with his brothers. 65 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: They've been selling online since two thousand two. This is 66 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: before Amazon was the big player it is today, so 67 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: he's really seen this space evolved from its early days. 68 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: They started out selling basketball hoops. This is a tough 69 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: thing for online sales. You know, big heavy outdoor equipment. 70 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: You see him backyards and driveways. Their website was called 71 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: super Duper Hoops dot com and Jason's business was really 72 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: starting to take off when he did a hundred thousand 73 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: in the first year, a million the next year, two million. 74 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: The next year of life was good. That was all basketballs, 75 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: all basketball hoops, basketball hoops, and then we started selling 76 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: home wreck equipment like foosball, billiard tables, air hockey tables, 77 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: those kinds of products as well. In the early days, 78 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: Jason would buy add space on search engines that directed 79 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: people to his website. Then once someone made a purchase, 80 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: he used a method called drop shipping. This means that 81 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: he doesn't buy any inventory in advance. He waits for 82 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: a customer order to come in, and then the manufacturer 83 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: sends the basketball hoops straight to the customer. This is 84 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: a low cost way to start a business because you 85 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: don't have to buy a lot of inventory upfront. Then 86 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: a couple of years later, around two thousand four, one 87 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: of Jason's brothers got a call from Amazon. People are 88 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: always floored when I tell them, we actually got a 89 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: phone call from Amazon asking us to sell our products 90 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: on their website. And uh, we immediately jumped at the 91 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: opportunity and we are hoops were selling on Amazon before 92 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: Amazon themselves were selling basketball hoops, so it was right 93 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: at their very early days of the sports and outdoors category. 94 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: So Jason's brother didn't think much of the call from Amazon. 95 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: He even waited until the end of the day to 96 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: tell the others. But when Jason heard, he thought, what 97 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: Amazon called, we have to do this, and so they did. 98 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: Business was good. There was like no competition. We were 99 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: making really good margins. We didn't have to carry any inventory. 100 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: It was all being drop shipped, and uh, life was 101 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: really good. It was great. We loved Amazon back then. 102 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: Jason's laughing because selling on Amazon has changed a lot 103 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: in the past fifteen years. We have to remember that 104 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: he started the dot com boom when they were all 105 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: kinds of generic domain names like drug store dot com, 106 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: soap dot com, diapers dot com. At this time, Amazon 107 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,119 Speaker 1: was trying to expand beyond books and movies. It needed 108 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: sellers like Jason too, lore more show operas because it 109 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: wanted to be an online version of a big box 110 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: store like Walmarter Target. But the honeymoon of those early 111 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: years didn't last forever. We were lucky to be one 112 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: of the first on there because we had a nice 113 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: run of sales, But then because it was so easy, 114 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: especially compared to eBay, folks from me By started coming 115 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: over in droves and started listing, and really, at that time, 116 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: their algorithm was very basic. One of the only ways 117 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: you could get the sales if you had the lowest price. 118 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: So what happens when there's ten sellers selling the same 119 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: thing and the only way you can get the sales 120 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: if you lower the price, the margins disappear. What Jason's 121 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: describing here was a big learning curve for a lot 122 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: of Amazon sellers. If you're selling a generic product that 123 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: a lot of other people can also get, you're gonna 124 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: face extreme price competition on Amazon. It's the point where 125 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: your business could be unsustainable, especially because within a few 126 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: years Amazon had millions of businesses selling on the platform. 127 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: So in order to survive, Jason and a lot of 128 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: other sellers they started designing their own unique products that 129 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: no one else had. Folks in the business called this 130 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: private label, and Jason's private label brand is called Harville. 131 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: Is the brand all basketball hoops? Or do you have 132 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: a variety of products? Actually, we don't even sell basketballs 133 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: anymore because they have you become so commoditized. It's hard 134 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: to make money. But we we sell mostly home fitness 135 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: and home rec equipment. Now they started making bacchi ball sets, 136 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: foosball tables, air hockey tables. The business continue to grow. 137 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: Jason said his Marine Corps training actually came in pretty handy, 138 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: since the Marines teach you to adapt and adjust and 139 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: use resources wisely. Today they have about ten people who 140 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: work from home in the US and another eighteen people 141 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: in an office in Manila. Those people mostly do data 142 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: entry graphic design. They work a lot with the images. 143 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: Images are a really important part of selling on Amazon, 144 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: since you know people aren't standing in front of the 145 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: product before they buy it. Every year, Jason sells tens 146 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars in inventory on Amazon, but that 147 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: success has a price. A big hazard of doing business 148 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: on Amazon is that changes can come quickly without warning, 149 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: meaning what worked yesterday suddenly doesn't work today. That gives 150 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: sellers a lot of indigestion. What always makes me crazy 151 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: about Amazon is I know that they're making these changes 152 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: because they're doing what is best for their customer. This 153 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: change made the customer experience for an Amazon customer better. 154 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: I don't dispute that, but what would have been nice 155 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: is an email six months earlier saying, Hey, we're gonna 156 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: make this change you guys. Metrics are kind of in 157 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: the gray area. You might want to change a business model. 158 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: It's really there's no communication. They just make these changes, 159 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: and it could it can put people out of business. 160 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: I asked Jason to give me an example of what 161 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: he meant by that. He said, several years ago, Amazon 162 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: started pushing sellers to deliver their goods more quickly. So 163 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: it was rewarding sellers who could manage two days shipment 164 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: and punishing sellers for delays or mistakes on orders. And 165 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: this at Jason really hard, mainly because he's selling basketball hoops, 166 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: which are so large and heavy. It's not like, you know, 167 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: you can just put in a mailbox like a phone charger. 168 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: As a result, he ended up changing his entire business model. 169 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: My life got infinitely more complicated when I had to 170 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: start inventoring these things. Myself was like a big That 171 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: was like the biggest change that affected us. We had 172 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: to cut millions of dollars in revenue from our drop 173 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: shippers at that moment. That was in that And so 174 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: did you have to shift from a drop ship model 175 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: to a different new model. We did. We had to 176 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: ship to an all inventory model. Up to this point, 177 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: every time Amazon made a change, sellers like Jason would 178 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: race to adjust. Sellers understood that even though it's tough 179 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: for them to meet the new standards, the changes were 180 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: good for customers, which is good for Amazon and in 181 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: turn good for their businesses. But some of Amazon's more 182 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: recent changes have made sellers doubt that idea, since the 183 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: costs primarily fall to them and the gains go to Amazon. 184 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: One change that Jason still struggles with is Amazon's decision 185 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: to introduce advertising. The day that they launched sponsored ads, 186 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: I cried in my pillow that night, I should explain here. 187 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: Jason so upset because he's seen this movie before. Google 188 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: changed its system before Amazon did and started charging for 189 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: results to appear at the top of the results page. 190 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: What this means is this, if you go to Google 191 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: and works for something like weather or traffic conditions, you'll 192 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: get mostly what's called organic results, sites like weather dot 193 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: com that are visited frequently and provide the information you want. 194 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: But if you search for a product like black dress socks, 195 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: the top of the page will be sponsored results businesses 196 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: that paid to be there rather than business is known 197 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 1: to have what you're looking for. Then when people see 198 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: your ads and click to your site, that improves your 199 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: organic ranking, So the two are intertwined. When Google did this, 200 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: the price for keyword searches got bit up higher and higher, because, 201 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: let's face it, nobody looks at page seven of the 202 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: search results, so it is essential to have high search 203 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: placement to get noticed. And that's what started happening on 204 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: Amazon too. Initially, the costs were cheap, and we're like, 205 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: we're not doing that. We're not going to pay them 206 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: expercent for every sale, and on top of that drive 207 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 1: traffic because we've got these great organic listings. But then 208 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: they started to move the top two thirds the above 209 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: the fold section. When you go on a desktop or 210 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: your mobile, the whole top of the page is all 211 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: ads now, so you're organic rank is you have to 212 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: scroll to get to the organic rank product. And so 213 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: that's something I have a real problem with. Now paying 214 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: for ads can significantly eat into a seller's margins. All this, 215 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: Jason says, means it's now a lot more expensive to 216 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: be a seller on Amazon. So I think that there's 217 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: one of the side effects of this sponsored ads program 218 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: is the prices eventually will have to increase on Amazon. 219 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: And if there's one thing that keeps Mr Bezos up 220 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: at night is that he wakes up one day and 221 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,599 Speaker 1: he's not the lowest price anymore. That's that's gonna be 222 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: a problem for them. I think it's because of that 223 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: bidding process, because of the way that it works. I 224 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: think that prices are going to have to go up 225 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: to accommodate those extra fees. Have you had to raise 226 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: prices on anything we have, We've had to. We've had to. 227 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: The big thing about the AD program is it means 228 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: Amazon makes more money from every sale. But this isn't 229 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: the only change Amazon has made like that. It's also 230 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: been developing hundreds of its own Amazon branded products. You 231 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: can get Amazon batteries, Amazon baby wipes, Amazon genes, Amazon 232 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: dining room tables, and even an Amazon Basics Botchy ball 233 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: set that costs fifteen dollars less than the one Jason sells. 234 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: Amazon can see all the data about what's popular, what sells, 235 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: which kinds of listings do best. The company gathers an 236 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: incredible amount of detailed information about customer behavior, and it 237 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: uses that data when making decisions about how it designs 238 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: and prices its products. Sellers like Jason can see some, 239 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: but definitely not all, of that data, and that's why 240 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: this change is what frustrates Jason the most. Look, I 241 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: understand that they're a retailer, but I've always had sort 242 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: of problem with them having a marketplace with all that 243 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: data that that I'm dependent on for my business to sell, 244 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: and that they can then take that data and launch 245 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: their own products. I have kind of have kind of 246 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: an issue with that. This question is at the heart 247 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,599 Speaker 1: of the debate over regulating big tech platforms. Is it 248 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: fair for companies like Amazon to own and control the 249 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: marketplace where merchants like Jason sell products and then turn 250 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: around and sell the very same things, oftentimes giving the 251 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: Amazon brands more visibility. Here's what Jason said, Do I 252 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: think they should be broken up? I don't know. That's 253 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: that's a question for the lawyers, But I sure makes 254 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: a lot of common sense for me that if you're 255 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: going to have a marketplace, that your purpose is to 256 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: help your sellers and your customers, and you shouldn't be 257 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 1: able to piggyback off the hard work and labor of 258 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: your sellers to beat them. I think just a general 259 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 1: part of fairness in my mind. Maybe that's unrealistic, but 260 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: they just have so much control of power and data 261 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,599 Speaker 1: and or or I got another alternative, share with me 262 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: all the data you have so that I can also 263 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: use that to my advantage so that I can compete 264 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: better with you. UM So, if you're gonna use my data, 265 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: I want to see it, all of it. After almost 266 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: twenty years and online retail, Jason is in the process 267 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: of selling his Amazon business. It still makes tens of 268 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: millions of dollars each year in sales, but he's decided 269 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: he'd rather are a consulting business called Avenue seven Media. 270 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: He's going to focus on helping other people selling Amazon. 271 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: So Spencer, it sounds like there's at least to one 272 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: Amazon merchant out there that's ready to donate to the 273 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren presidential campaign. On the other hand, a couple 274 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: of weeks ago, after Elizabeth warren't unveiled her plans to 275 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: break up Big Tech, Jeff Bezos wrote a letter to 276 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: shareholders in which he essentially gave us his rebuttal to 277 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: her plan. According to Bezos, he said that third party 278 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: businesses who sell in the platform are doing really well. 279 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: Do you think he's taking into account some of the 280 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: grievances of folks like Jason. Yeah. And I don't think 281 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: that any of the merchants are disagreeing with anything that 282 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: he said in that shareholder letter. They freely acknowledge that, 283 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, many of them have been able to build 284 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: multimillion dollar businesses, you know, virtually overnight thanks to access 285 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: to Amazon and its customers. The main point they're making 286 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: is at over the years, as Amazon has grown and 287 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: its power has grown, it can really exercise its leverage 288 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: over them, and that when we look at that, you know, 289 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: fifty eight percent of all the sales coming from these merchants, 290 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: Amazon is taking a bigger and bigger bite out of 291 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: each and every one of those sales. You know. What 292 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: Amazon will always say, though, of course, is that it's 293 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: very customer focused. And your profile of Jason I thought 294 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: was interesting. You know, the business that he and his 295 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: brothers run started almost as retail arbitrage right there, drop 296 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: shipping from a factory probably in China. Eventually they're slapping 297 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: their brand on it. Um they're basically inserting a margin 298 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: between the factory and the customer and the Amazon private 299 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: label business. I mean, in some ways you can look 300 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: at it as a sort of you know, increasing the 301 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: efficiency of the supply chain. They're going to the factories 302 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: in China, maybe even the same factories that Jason and 303 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: his brothers used, and saying you could basically sell directly 304 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: to the customer and we're just going to put an 305 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: Amazon brand on it. And of course Amazon would call 306 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: that being customer focused and helping to to lower the price, 307 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: and so I guess you know, in some of these 308 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: changes to its business model, some of the things that 309 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: have made Jason and his brother's lives really hard. I mean, 310 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: can we honestly say that that is in the service 311 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: of a better customer experience? Yeah, the private label is 312 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: a good point, and it's something that other retailers have 313 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: been doing for decades. Right. You see private label products 314 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: in Walmart, you see them in Target, you see them 315 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: in supermarkets. And probably the most recent change that the 316 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: sellers have a beef with is the advertising, because that's 317 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: the one where Okay, it's costing me more to sell 318 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: on Amazon. Amazon is getting more of the money from 319 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: each sale. But where is the consumer benefit in having 320 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: the prominence go to the highest bidder as opposed to 321 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: the best product at the best price. Amazon did give 322 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: us a statement responding to that point. It said the 323 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: company's first priority with advertising is for the experience to 324 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: be useful and relevant to the customer. It also said 325 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: advertiser and customer interests are inherently aligned. Now, Spencer, you 326 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: talked to a lot of sellers of that conference, in 327 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: addition to Jason. What was the general feel and did 328 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: they agree with Jason, and did it seem like sellers 329 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: were reaching a turning point as it relates to Amazon. 330 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: You know, sellers are still very devoted to Amazon. They 331 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: kind of have an attitude of you know that which 332 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: does not kill us, makes us stronger. But the frustration 333 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: is real that Amazon is taking more and more of 334 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: their money on every sale. So let's talk about that. 335 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: Did you get into it with any sellers about how 336 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: their costs have gone up? Like? How much does Amazon 337 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: take out of every sale? I asked one seller to 338 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: break that down for me. His name is Chad Ruben. 339 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: He does about twelve million dollars in sales a year, 340 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: mostly vacuum cleaner parts and accessories, and he does most 341 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: of his business on Amazon. Can you can you tell 342 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: us at all or even roughly what the erosion was 343 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: in in your in your margins, or even like a 344 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: percentage you used to give Amazon, you know, when you 345 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: first got started in what you give them now? Yeah, 346 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: I mean if you look at FBA in itself, that 347 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: you're looking at seven percent, then you tack on the 348 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: fifteen percent commission fee, and then you tack on uh 349 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: let cost back in the envelope. Math that a purchase 350 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: through Amazon, and that's not even including the cost of 351 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: the good soul. So that clip is full of acronyms, 352 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: So let's try to translate it to English. If you 353 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: sell something simply on Amazon's site, and you know that's 354 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: all that Amazon does is put your product on their site, 355 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: you pay them a fifteen percent commission. The seven percent 356 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: for f B A is what's called fulfillment by Amazon. 357 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: That's where you're actually sending inventory to Amazon warehouses. They 358 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: store it for you, they pack it and ship it 359 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: when an order comes in. In the headline number Chad 360 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: spends on advertising, so that all adds up to to Amazon, 361 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: and then you have to consider the cost of the 362 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: product itself, which the merchant bears along with the cost 363 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: of their own business. So we can compare that to 364 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: other tech platforms. Apple of course takes a thirty percent 365 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: commission for all sales made through the app store, and 366 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: companies like Spotify have complained about that because they think 367 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: it's too high. Uber takes around twenty sent to be tried, 368 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: and we know how rocky that their relationship is with drivers. These, 369 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: of course are an apples to Apples comparisons, but it 370 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: does show that Amazon's fort take great is really high. 371 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: As the spencer, how does that compare to other relationships 372 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: between retailers and their suppliers. Yet, it's hard to compare, 373 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: like you said, the the apples to apples, because if 374 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: you think of a site like eBay where they're more 375 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: hands off in terms of their you know, logistics, where 376 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: Amazon will actually store the products for you. But the 377 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: main thing is that there's really no alternative that these 378 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: sellers have to pay what Amazon charges because there's there's 379 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: really nowhere else to go. They already sell on these 380 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: sites like eBay and Walmart and you know Jet before 381 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: Walmart purchased it. They thought this would be helpful initially 382 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: and make them less rely ont on Amazon, but they're 383 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: they're learning the opposite is happening right and in large 384 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: parts of the world, Amazon is the best option for 385 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: selling online. So is Amazon reaching the limit of how 386 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: far they can push sellers? It's a good question. I 387 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: talked to another a seller named Brat Howard. He's also 388 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: been selling on Amazon for about twenty years. He told 389 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: me about a time when sellers revolted against Amazon. So 390 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: Amazon invited a bunch of brands to Seattle and Apple 391 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: and Disney were there, and there were hundreds of them 392 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: gathered in a in a big conference room, and what 393 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: was meant to be kind of a make nice meeting 394 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: turned out to this big venting session with all of 395 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: these brands complaining about fake things on Amazon with their 396 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: names on it. And when Amazon tried to talk to 397 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 1: the sellers about the problem, things really escalated. I mean, 398 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like it. Everyone in the room 399 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: was raising their hands, screaming at the guy and saying, 400 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: are listening to the hijacked brands are getting crushed? Your 401 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: marketplace is destroying major labels. You guys have no control this, 402 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: What the hell is going on? And in that exact 403 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: moment in time, the world change and Amazon pu steak 404 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: down and launched the brand program a few months later. 405 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: That's fascinating, Spencer. I mean, we've seen news here and 406 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: there about brands reacting with frustration to Amazon, but I 407 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: think this is the first I've heard of a sort 408 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: of revolt in person that set some change in motion. 409 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: How did Amazon react? This revolt was supposedly back in 410 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: or fourteen, and we can think of things that came since, 411 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: like brand registry, and I think Project Zero is the 412 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: new tool that Amazon is trying to give brands more 413 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: control and power to report counterfeits on the site. Right 414 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: Amazon told us they also have a team of people 415 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: dedicated to anti counterfeiting. They said they have software engineers, 416 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: applied scientists, and investigators working on the issue. But it 417 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: still remains an issue. And let's not forget. Donald Trump 418 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: even called for an investigation a couple of weeks ago 419 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: into the proliferation of counterfeits on online marketplaces, including sites 420 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: like Amazon. So, getting back to this broader question and 421 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: proposal raised by Elizabeth Warren around an Amazon breakup, do 422 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: you have any sense for whether Amazon sellers would actually 423 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: benefit from that? You know, I spoke with one veteran seller, 424 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: Alon Guestwalter. He's been selling home products on Amazon for 425 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: nearly twenty years as well, and he started in the 426 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: mail order business, so he kind of transitioned from a 427 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: direct mail business to selling online. He's really benefited from 428 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: the fulfillment by Amazon model. That's where they Amazon stores 429 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: your goods and packs them and delivers them. And he 430 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: even has benefited from advertising new products. So he really 431 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: worries about government influence. So it's a devil you know 432 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 1: is better than the one you don't kind of think. 433 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, the government should run the 434 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: government and the business run the business. The fact that 435 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: Amazon was able to grow and bring value to the 436 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: customers and really grow and take over while other people 437 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: stayed behind is not something that the government should break 438 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: up or anything or hurt their business model because the 439 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: effect of hurting Amazon's business today is going to affect 440 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: all of us, and you're talking about tens of millions 441 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: of jobs. The model works. I think the governments will 442 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: stay out of it. And that's it for this week's 443 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. If you have a 444 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: story to share, I'd love to hear it. You can 445 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: write to us at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net. But 446 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Spencer Soaper and I'm at brad 447 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: Stone And please help us spread the word about our 448 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: new season by leaving us a rating or review in 449 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: your favorite podcast app. This episode was produced by Piagod 450 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: Cary and Lindsay Cratterwell. Our story editor was Emily Busso. 451 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: Thank you also to Ann vander May and aki Ito. Francesco. 452 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: Levi is head of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you next week.