1 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psychopia Pictures 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: My name is Aleen Lay, and I am a severely 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 2: damaged person. I think that's kind of going to like 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: with this. Experiencing younger death in my family before older people. 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: You know, I never actually prioritize my feelings. I almost 7 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 2: became the third kid that off themselves. I spent a 8 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: week trying to do so, and I ended up in 9 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 2: the ICU, and it was just like, like, well, this 10 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 2: is how I'm adapting to societies by these like kind 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 2: of near death phoenix moments or whatever, and that's terrible. 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Alive Again, a podcast that showcases miraculous accounts 13 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: of human fragility and resilience from people his lives were 14 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: forever altered after having almost died. These are first hand 15 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: accounts of near death experiences and more broadly, brushes with death. 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Our mission is simple, find, explore, and share these stories 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: to remind us all of our shared human condition. Please 18 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: keep in mind these stories are true and maybe triggering 19 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: for some listener, and discretion is advised. 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: I only had one set of grandparents that were alive, 21 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: and technically only one biological grandparent. 22 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 3: My step up grandpa was always my grandpa. 23 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: But if you want to talk about blood relations, I 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: only had one grandparent that was alive when I was born. 25 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: The other set came over to Guyana's bonded labor to 26 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: work plantation. Well after transcontinental slavery had been abolished in Britain, 27 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 2: they tried doing bonded labor for a while. 28 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: That got out lawed as well. There were a lot 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: of abuses. 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: It was dusted off again in the early twentieth century 31 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: because they really couldn't afford to operate with the amount 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: of profit that they wanted without free labor. So my 33 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: grandparents came over from my grandpa from China and my 34 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: grandmother from Indian. My father was born in Guyana obviously, 35 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: but he, like his dad, was kind of absentee. He 36 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: was like a prospector going the interior looking for golden diamonds. 37 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: He ended up dying when he was he says three. 38 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: But he's got a couple of memories of his dad 39 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: coming in with when he would he would come in 40 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 2: back into town kind of like you know, fat pockets 41 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: and kind of like you know, large ass, and he's like, oh, 42 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: he had this nut candy, and I loved oh, I 43 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 2: loved nut candy. And he was like and he would 44 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: talk about how he would speak with him and that 45 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: man hung the moon like he was. He just loved 46 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 2: his father. But there's not a lot of stories about 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 2: that because I think his father died when he was 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: probably between the ages of three and five. When he 49 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: was twelve, he was sassing his mom. They were in 50 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: the field and she wanted him to kind of sit 51 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: quietly read his primer or do his homework, and he 52 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 2: didn't want to, and he sassed her and was being 53 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: very difficult, you know, like kids do. And he calmed 54 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: down finally, just kind of like you know, brooding, going 55 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: to like booky fine, and his mother went to work. 56 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 3: And a little bit later. 57 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: He was trying to find her and couldn't realize that 58 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 2: she had collapsed in the fields from exhaustion. So she 59 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: had been working, and she was a young woman, she 60 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: was in her thirties, but she'd been working a plantation, 61 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: like picking kin. She's like like tiny, tiny South Asian 62 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: woman with these really broken, wide broken hands from the cane. 63 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: And he has an immense amount of guilt around that 64 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: about assassin. His mom before she died, because that's the 65 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: last thing he remembers saying to her. I didn't know 66 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: that story until I was her age, because we were 67 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: on Mother's Day and he looked across the table and 68 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: looked stricken, and he's just like, you look just like her. 69 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: Up to that point, it didn't look like anybody in 70 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 2: my family because I was such a mut I didn't 71 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: know who he was talking about. And his eyes got 72 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: watery and misty, and he started talking about his mother 73 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: and told me this story. So it was like this 74 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: kind of weird, bittersweet moment where he's able to actually 75 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: tell his stories finally, a little by a little. And 76 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: then there's a brother, brother named Fred, who was also 77 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: a prospector. I think he committed suicide at a young 78 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: age because he's again, it was just like a kind 79 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: of a pretty hard scrubble of life. It's not it 80 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: wasn't a very stable existence, and I think it got 81 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: the best of them. So that's the whole history that 82 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 2: we've kind of inherited in the family that a few 83 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: of us have kind of put together all of the pieces, 84 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 2: although like the little bits of stories that we were told, 85 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: because we're not told a lot in the family. So 86 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 2: we're just kind of sitting there, going why are we 87 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: failing so much? So there's a like this this great 88 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: deal of self loathing that's in my family. A lot 89 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 2: of it's moving here to the West and being kind 90 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: of like scrutinized and not quite fitting in, especially for 91 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: my brothers and sisters who were born there from his 92 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 2: first marriage. They are South Asian descent, and so that, 93 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: you know, growing up in Rednicked Nashville a nuanced time 94 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: in the seventies and the eighties growing up there, but 95 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: so that was difficult, and you know, anything that they 96 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: were interested in, like you know, they wanted to listen 97 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: to lata or lata like the Bollywood music or like 98 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: fashions or you know, movies. That's also kind of like 99 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: it's foreign. Therefore it's not really interesting to other people, 100 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: you know. So it's all of that, and then they're 101 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: feeling that they're not good enough and trying to kind 102 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 2: of mimic what Western culture is. And then you know, 103 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: like I'm doing what you said. Like they're Christian, and 104 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: my dad came over to go to Saint Augsburg because 105 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: the missionary like arranged for him to go to Saint 106 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: Augsburg in Minnesota and become ostensibly a reverend or a pastor, 107 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: and that's how he met my mother, who's a German 108 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: immigrant family from Kustern, Minnesota. It's it's like, Okay, we're 109 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: doing all the things, we're being good Christians and all that, 110 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: and it still was not enough. And I don't think 111 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: they They might have suspected that it would never be enough, 112 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: but I don't think they were able to speak to 113 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 2: that or acknowledge it because they're just too busy trying 114 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: to fit in instead of just being And I think 115 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: that adds up said like they have the family history 116 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: that is kind of known and not known, and the 117 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: way the parents or react to, you know, outside forces 118 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: like if the kids aren't behaving correctly, then being overly 119 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: correction or you know, like like overly correcting their kids. 120 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: Because we want to fit in. 121 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: We want to be good people, people of value. There 122 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: is a lot of very harsh punishment in my family. 123 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: It was violent. 124 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: It was basically having parents that are part of breaking 125 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: down the kids as well and not acknowledging the two 126 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: damage that they've done. 127 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: To those kids. It wasn't there. 128 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: In time, I will say that, but it doesn't excuse it. 129 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: And they're kind of unable to acknowledge a lot of 130 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: that because I think it would tear them down if 131 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: they did. I have two suicides in the family, my 132 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: two brothers who committed suicide, one when I was twelve 133 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: and the other one much later. I have a brother 134 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: who odeed, which you know, you could, yeah, you could 135 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: say they distructed his own destructive forces. Whether that was 136 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: actually suicidal or not, I don't know. And then my nephew, Richard, 137 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: my mother, my mother, and my oldest sister are five 138 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: years apart because of the age difference between my dad 139 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: and my mom, so they were pregnant at the same time, 140 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: and so we were that family. Like by the time 141 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 2: she was twenty five and had me, she was now. 142 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: The mom of twelve kids. And we're in Nashville, Tennessee. 143 00:08:58,160 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 3: In this house. 144 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 2: There's twelve of us piling into a beat up station 145 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: wagon with primer spots on it, old Buick and getting 146 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: ready to go to Sunday school, you know kind of thing, 147 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 2: that's what you do. My nephew, Richard is four months 148 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: older than me, and his brother Stephen is a year 149 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: younger than me. We all grew up in the same 150 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 2: house because the Barbera's marriage they all fell apart early on, 151 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: so she lived with us most of the time. We 152 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: grew up in the same home, and we grew up 153 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 2: in the same schools. When Halloween there's a local hunted house, 154 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: like the jc's round, my sisters had been involved with 155 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: it before, So we're going to visit the makeup artist 156 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: and the crew and go do a tour of the 157 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: haunted house. And so it was the big kids showing 158 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: off with the little kids. So we're like, yeah, we 159 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: get to hang out with Julie and a really cool friend, Missy, 160 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: you know. And Missy had just bought this really sporty 161 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: new car. The boys were really eyeballing it and they 162 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: were like really wanting to go for a ride in it, 163 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: and she let me ride with her, and so they're 164 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: kind of bummed about it, and it was more important 165 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 2: to them than it was to me, and I'm just like, 166 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: I felt kind of guilty about it. And so we 167 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: went to the hunted house and you know, met with 168 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: people and kind of like, you know, got the dickens 169 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: scared out of us. And we were going back and 170 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: the cars were kind of They're parked pretty quite close 171 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: to each other, and I had my hand on the 172 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: door of Missy's car and my person stuff was still 173 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: inside it, and I had this weird moment. 174 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 3: I remember this clearly because. 175 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: I thought that was strange at the time, where we 176 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: both looked up and it was like this weird kismet 177 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: kind of synchronicity or synchronous moment. We both looked up 178 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: and we kind of met eye contact, and he had 179 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: his hand on the dark car door two, you know, 180 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: And I didn't say anything. I just kind of wildlight 181 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 2: and we just swapped places. He didn't ask, and I 182 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 2: didn't say okay. I just knew he wanted to go 183 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: in the car, and it meant a lot to him, 184 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 2: the young guy, you know, And so we swapped places. 185 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: We went out, went out on the main road, not 186 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: even a block from the driveway, and there's a curve 187 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: up ahead and Missy's car was in front of us, 188 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: and she takes the curve and then all of a sudden, 189 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 2: you just hear this horrible racket in this big cloud 190 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 2: of like asphalt and dust because they were doing construction 191 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 2: and there was a construction on that part of the 192 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: road that they hadn't clearly marked. They had moved it 193 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: so people could come into the haunted house. I think 194 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: there was this big bank of gravel, but she hid 195 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: it and it just ramped up the car. The car 196 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 2: flew into the air and flipped, and I watched Richard's 197 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: body fly out of the windshield. 198 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 3: And then fly. 199 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: I mean he went so far into the into the 200 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: field that was like pretty parallel to where my car 201 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: had parked. So from where I was sitting in the 202 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: passenger seat, he was like just straight on. I could 203 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: see him. And Julie hopped out of the car to 204 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: you know, make sure Missy was okay and to try 205 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: to figure out what to do next. And there there's 206 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: still kids too there in high school, you know, and 207 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: she's she's only like three years older than me. I 208 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: was thirteen at the time, and I couldn't get out 209 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: myself because I was I was holding Serena, and Serena 210 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: is Richard's sister or my niece. She was three, and 211 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 2: I wanted to I wanted to keep her calm because 212 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going on. I wasn't sure 213 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 2: if he was okay or not, and everyone else was 214 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: losing it, and I didn't want her to freak out, 215 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: so I kept her in the car with me and 216 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: talked to her. And the whole time I'm like doing that, 217 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: and there emergency cruiser here very quickly, and they're trying 218 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 2: to their lashlights everywhere trying to find him. At this 219 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: point I realized he's he's gone. It was It was horrible. 220 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 2: He was dead on impact. My father's very stoic. He's 221 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: also like a very patriarchal figure. He's you know, was 222 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: also a pastor. He was the person who was supposed 223 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: to hold everything together, and that's his favorite grandson. 224 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 3: And between that and then my brother Arnold. 225 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: That had died year previous, he committed suicide by. 226 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 3: Shooting him, shooting himself in the head with a thirty 227 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 3: odd six. That was his favorite son. 228 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: I knew that he would be in that position again 229 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: and earlier, like the first death, I had kind of 230 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: logiced out. I don't know why I was like this, 231 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: but I've always been kind of like this. I'd logiced 232 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: out that if he's the person who's supposed to keep 233 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: it together, then he would have no ability to actually 234 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: show his own emotion. There would be no one there 235 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: for him, because everyone else will be dealing with their grief, 236 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: and that's partly by design. 237 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 3: It's not their fault. 238 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 2: This is Dad being strong, but he wouldn't grieve, and 239 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: I know that it was horrible for him, and so 240 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: I decided that he needed company, and I remember trying 241 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: to be that person as best as I could for 242 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 2: him so we could be strong for everybody. 243 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 3: And I remember doing that as. 244 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: Best as I could at that age because I was 245 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: also kind of like, there's a hierarchy to it. It's like, 246 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: that's your favorite son, and so your grief is more 247 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: pronounced and more more important than my grief, even though 248 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: that's my favorite brother. I do have grief, but like 249 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: yours is so much more pronounced and dramatic. 250 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 3: And you had this boy, and for some reason. 251 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: That that popped in my head as part of my 252 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: rationale for this. 253 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 3: So I became that person. 254 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: And I did it again when Richard died, because that's 255 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: my sister Barber's boy. She was obviously asash herself and 256 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: this was not going to be something that she would 257 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: come back from very easily, and I wanted to be 258 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: there for her and. 259 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: Wanted to be there. 260 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: For my dad because I know that he would just 261 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: couldn't be. 262 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: He was just going to be at the tough. 263 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: Guy, and I know it was killing him. So I did, 264 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: And you know, I figured I was doing a pretty 265 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 2: good job of it because I was really good at it. 266 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: I'm just really good at being stoic and riggilating my 267 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: own emotions and taking it home with me kind of thing. 268 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 3: So like that was like kind of going into high school. 269 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: And I remember going into a new high school because 270 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: I didn't go into what I was zoned for, which 271 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: was where everyone knew Richard and my family because like 272 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: all the kids had gone to the same high school. 273 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 2: I got accepted into the academically gifted program at a 274 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: Magnet school that they were just starting as a as 275 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: kind of a lab. I got the opportunity to go 276 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: to a completely different environment, which was pretty great, and 277 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: I figured no one's going to ask about it, to 278 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: give me a chance to deal with all of this 279 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: stuff as on my own, on my own time, and 280 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 2: not be reminded about it by people who know him. 281 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: So I didn't really talk about it there. That caused 282 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: some issues, like later when I realized it's like, oh, 283 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 2: like I was like highly critical of my own abilities 284 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 2: to handle shit if my grades started suffering, or if 285 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 2: I started withdrawing, which I did. You know, for a 286 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: while it was just because oh you're lazy. 287 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 3: Or what's wrong with you? 288 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: And a lot of it was just this kind of 289 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 2: people pleasing mode where you know, I like turn stuff 290 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: in lakes and maybe I didn't spend enough time on 291 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: that paper or I should have spent more time. And 292 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 2: I finally, like, I had a teacher who was like, 293 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: I know you did the work because you're always present. 294 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: You're always present, you always know what's going on. And 295 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 2: so I finally gave him all of the work that 296 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 2: I had turned in and he's like, and he's like, 297 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: these would. 298 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: Be a's but they can't be now. 299 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: But at least I turned them in and it also 300 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: kind of course corrected me in my thinking as well. 301 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 2: But it's like anytime, anytime there was a failure on 302 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: my part to excel, because I was the kid that 303 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 2: was supposed to excel and everything, and so it wasn't 304 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 2: actually talking about depression or grief, right, So it's missing that. 305 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 2: It's missing that, and there's no one actually discussing that 306 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: with me either, And there are no adults saying hey, 307 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: you're probably depressed or you're probably still grieving. This it's 308 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: the this is kind of like, oh, are you on drugs? 309 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? That kind of thing, and that 310 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: followed me. It's a really dramatic family. It's a big family, 311 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 2: and since I was the youngest, I was kind of 312 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 2: in the position of being able to observe a lot 313 00:18:58,119 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: and just going to sit back and see what happened. 314 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: And yeah, it was very it was violent at times, 315 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: it was heartbreaking at times, and I became very estranged 316 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: from all of them because they all kind of went away. 317 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 2: I just I had this idea that everybody would get 318 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 2: together at one point that they understood I'd been watching 319 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: for them for so long and even though we hadn't 320 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: seen each other in ages, that they would know I 321 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: was still there for them, and they would I understand 322 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: why they were stranged, but one day everybody would get along, 323 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: they would be able to kind of talk through these things. 324 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: Because I always told Dad the truth about who I was, 325 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: and it was not accepted very well. It caused a 326 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 2: lot of fights, but I did it and I kept 327 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: doing it because I figured, well, if we just keep 328 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: doing this, then eventually everyone will get a chance to 329 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: talk and say their peace and say their truth. 330 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 3: That never happened. 331 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: And I remember, like, you know, thinking this is like, 332 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: you know, if this takes forever, if this takes forever. 333 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 3: I'm always going to be there. 334 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: I'm always going to like accept people like open you know, 335 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 2: hearted and open armed. And it's not I can't put 336 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 2: a condition on when that will happen, if it ever does. Right, 337 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 2: So they're a big, very rational right And then I 338 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 2: realized I was looking at my brother on the internet 339 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 2: and I came across his website and there's this bio 340 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: he said that he's the youngest of ten kids and 341 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: I'm the youngest of twelve. So like we're mathing hard 342 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: and it's just not coming up. Yeah, it's not matching. 343 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, and it's like I think everything 344 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: kind of like locked in together and formed the this 345 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: is the missing picture behind all of the other pictures 346 00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: you were looking at. 347 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: And I felt so stupid. 348 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: I like, this is the ultimate betrayal, but it was 349 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 2: more of a betrayal of myself where it's just like 350 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: you're you're not wanted in any of this. 351 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 3: I don't think that he means that now, but. 352 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: He doesn't know that that that set me that that 353 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: just set me over the edge where I was just 354 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 2: waiting for this grand reconciliation. Most of the kids had 355 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 2: gone because of Dad, and because I was so young, 356 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 2: I was considered an extension of that because they left 357 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: the household and I was still in the household. And 358 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: some of them I've like reached out afterwards, and there 359 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: I can tell that they're fond of me, and I'm 360 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: fond of them. But there is like that weird schism, 361 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 2: you know. And it's weird because I understand why they left. 362 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 3: They weren't wrong. 363 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: It was the first time I actually had to really 364 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,239 Speaker 2: look at the family dynamic, and so I do have 365 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: him to thank for it. But for that though, it's 366 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 2: it set me over the edge, and it set me 367 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: right down the whole shoot where I almost became the 368 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: third kid that off themselves. I spent a week trying 369 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 2: to do so, and I ended up in the ICU 370 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: and I ended up in observation. So it was like 371 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: and it wasn't the first time that I had that 372 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: I'd gone down that path, Like every time that I 373 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: had gone down that path in the past. It forced 374 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 2: me to look closer at what was going on with 375 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: the family or take more responsibility for the way I 376 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 2: was thinking. 377 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 3: And it was just like like, well, this is how 378 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 3: I'm adapting to. 379 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: Society is by these like kind of near death phoenix 380 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: moments or whatever, and that's terrible. And this was the 381 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 2: big one. This is the bigger one that that really 382 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: forced me to to cut ties. 383 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 3: I was distant. 384 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: There are always like fights that kind of like made 385 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: that distance easier because it wasn't me calling for distance. 386 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 2: It was Dad just skulking off for six months because 387 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 2: he got into a fight with me about whether or 388 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: not gays existed nature. 389 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh my god, you know. 390 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 2: You know, i't mean like ridiculous where like he's basically 391 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 2: afraid of like what if my daughter's gig because she's 392 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: not dating a lot of guys or dating at all, 393 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: and so he would get into these ridiculous fights because 394 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: he has his existential dread of his daughter being something different. 395 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: So there was always a reason for it. You know, 396 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 2: it wasn't me. It wasn't me throwing my hands up 397 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 2: in the air necessarily. And I finally just did, and 398 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 2: that went against everything I'd ever been taught where it's 399 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: just like you work harder. You just work harder to 400 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: make it to kind of like come to some reconciliation, 401 00:23:54,160 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: but you don't ever lie about who you are. And 402 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: so I had taken a harder path than anybody else 403 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: in the family had taken at that point because I 404 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: was sticking around, but also not making it easy for 405 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 2: him because if, like he asked, I'm like going to 406 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: I to him because I want him to understand who 407 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 2: I am, because I respect him so much and I 408 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: want him to respect me. And I thought, because I'm 409 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 2: being so logical and rational and I'm being conscientious that 410 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 2: this I would went out, And in some ways I 411 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: did get a lot. 412 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 3: Of space to be who I am, but. 413 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 2: It was never really going to It was never going 414 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: to really acknowledge the stuff that I needed to work 415 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 2: on in order for me to be a whole or 416 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: better person and to pursue the things that I need 417 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 2: to pursue. It was not accounting for my emotions at all. 418 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: I think that's kind of going to like with this, 419 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 2: experiencing younger death in my family before older people, you know, 420 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: I think that that put me in the position of 421 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: kind of being a people pleaser and a caretaker and 422 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: making sure that everyone was taken care of. 423 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 3: And it was for good reason at the. 424 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: Time, and so it's not a it's a coping mechanism, 425 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: and it was useful. 426 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 3: I never actually prioritize my feelings. 427 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: The day that I woke I literally woke up and 428 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 2: the first thought as I was going to get water 429 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: was like, I am a severely damaged person. 430 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 3: It was such a relief. 431 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 2: It was such a relief to be able to say 432 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: it out loud and to know it. Like I didn't 433 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 2: recognize trauma and my own family my trauma. 434 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 3: I never never used that word. 435 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 2: Is someone used that word to me first, and I'm like, 436 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: my life's not that dramatic, you know, come on, And 437 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: it's just like I really really kind of bristled at it, 438 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: and they're like, no, you have family trauma. 439 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 3: And I'm like, we weren't wrong. 440 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: And it took me a while to actually allow that 441 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 2: thought in my own head and actually kind of consider 442 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 2: that because if anyone else that told me about it, 443 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: it's like half of the way I grew up. If 444 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 2: anyone told me about half of it, and about what 445 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 2: my sister I think it's also I was able to 446 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: put it off because I could say, well, that happened 447 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: to them, to my sisters and brothers, they got the 448 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: worst of it. He didn't hit me that much, you know, 449 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 2: I mean like that kind of thing, you know, or 450 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 2: his disdain of me wasn't that great. And there's still 451 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: like that sense of self loathing that we've all inherited 452 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 2: because of that. 453 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 3: But I think I think that was like a outside 454 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 3: my dad's. 455 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 2: Ability to understand that he was doing he was doing 456 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: his best to make sure everyone is doing their level 457 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 2: best and survives right, because I don't think he understood 458 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: that he had self loathing, so he kind of they 459 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 2: inherited his because he never acknowledged it and he didn't 460 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: have the wherewithal or the ability to acknowledge it. 461 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: Everyone deals with death. This is the universal. 462 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 2: We are born astride a grave, you know, So this 463 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: is not new, and so you know, handle it, handle 464 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: it as well as you can, and don't think you're 465 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: so special as you're the first one or the only 466 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 2: one who's ever had someone die. And then also you know, 467 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: there might be people around you right now or having 468 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 2: a real shit time of it, and it's far worse 469 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: than you could possibly imagine, far worse than anything you've experienced. 470 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: So maybe you need to keep your wits about yourself 471 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: so you can be there and not think, oh, I 472 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: am the prettiest princess with the deepest sorrows. You don't 473 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: want to be that person. And so like, yeah, you 474 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: can feel it, It'll come to you in ways. Maybe 475 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 2: a year now, you're gonna feel it again, you know, like, 476 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: I know it's never convenient, and I know that I'm 477 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 2: going to feel it, and it's okay to feel sad 478 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: and it's okay to be. 479 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 3: To cry, but that's mine. 480 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: Welcome back, This is Alive again in the studio. 481 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 4: Today we have Nick Takowski and myself Dan Bush. 482 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 5: Hey, this is Nick. 483 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: I produced this story. 484 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 5: You know, something really that resonated with me on this 485 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 5: one was this theme of generational trauma that ran through 486 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 5: this story. This is a family that, as every generation, 487 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 5: has had their own horrible struggle and a lot of 488 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 5: emotional weight to carry forth, from Aileen's dad sort of 489 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 5: sassing off to his mom right before she passes away, 490 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 5: to inherent violence within that household, to the drug use 491 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 5: and the suicide, and then this absolutely horrifying freak accident. 492 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 5: And I think that being able to see how the 493 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 5: trauma affects each generation and then how they pass their 494 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 5: own burden onto their children, and to finally see someone 495 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 5: like Aileen who was able to break away from it 496 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 5: and break this cycle of abuse and sort of despair 497 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 5: that had followed this family for gen I think is 498 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 5: absolutely inspiring. 499 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 4: I think it's fascinating Alien's story because there's this shift. 500 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 4: She has a shift in perspective at some point, and 501 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 4: I'm not sure exactly what led her to that shift, 502 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 4: but there was that moment she talked about when when 503 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 4: she realized that she was not even sort of listed 504 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 4: in the thoughts of the other She found that it 505 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 4: was at a letter nick where she and there was twelve. 506 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 5: Children in the family and yeah, and she wasn't even mentioned. 507 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 4: Right, That might have been the impetus for her to go, well, 508 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 4: am I even a part of this family? Or you know, 509 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 4: maybe the thought then happened with her of why is 510 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 4: my perspective and my behavior following this pattern? If I'm not, 511 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,239 Speaker 4: you know, does that give me an allowance to not 512 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 4: be a part of the family or to think differently 513 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 4: in some way about who I am relative to the family. 514 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 4: And what was amazing is she was able to if 515 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 4: the ideation of suicide or the ideation that everything's terrible 516 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 4: and there's this generational legacy of violence and a b 517 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 4: if she's able to then go, that has become a norm. 518 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 4: If that's the normal, if that's baseline, then I can 519 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 4: move away from that and let that perspective go and 520 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 4: have a new perspective and sort of break the cycle. 521 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I thought so too. I mean, I thought I 522 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 5: was incredibly powerful, and I think that a lot of us. 523 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 5: What was what is the phrase all happy families are 524 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 5: the same, but all unhappy families are unhappy in their 525 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 5: own special way. I forget who that is? 526 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 6: Is that? 527 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 4: Yeah? How does one What are some tools that we 528 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 4: might all have or take from her story about breaking 529 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 4: the cycle of trauma and hardship and and changing our perspective. 530 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 4: You know, I had a dear friend who went to 531 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 4: her abusive father, who was a Vietnam veteran who had 532 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 4: never quite recuperated fully and still suffered from PTSD and 533 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 4: was very harsh and very abusive. And I remember the 534 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 4: day she drove home to Charlotte, North Carolina, to say 535 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 4: goodbye to him, and her goodbye essentially was was letting 536 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 4: him know that she was no longer going to empower 537 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 4: this or be a part of this relationship, and that 538 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 4: if he wanted to drink himself to death, she was 539 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 4: no longer going to coddle him or try to help him, 540 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 4: and that she was done and she was moving on. 541 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 4: And it was this extremely empowering thing that happened when 542 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 4: she sort of had the foresight to go, I don't 543 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 4: have to be a part of this, I you know, 544 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 4: I can. I can shift my idea of who I 545 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 4: am and my perspective of who I am and my 546 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 4: identity so that it doesn't contain this I am. Yeah, 547 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 4: and I and Aileen. 548 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 5: Did that absolutely. I think that there has to come 549 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 5: a realization at some point that you know, you don't 550 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 5: actually owe anything to your parents. They dragged you into 551 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 5: this world. If if they're good to you, then you'll 552 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 5: want to give back. But if they're bad to you 553 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 5: for years and years and years, you don't actually owe 554 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 5: them anything. They dragged you here unwillingly, you know. And 555 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 5: I think that there's something about that. I think that like, 556 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 5: if you're a parent, you can make that connection and 557 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 5: go like, I'm just not going to do that to 558 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 5: my kid. If you want your kid around, you'd be 559 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 5: good to your kid through their childhood and they'll stick around, 560 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 5: you know. And I think that I think that that's 561 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 5: something that many of us who have had sort of abusive, 562 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 5: shitty relationships in our pasts, have to come to on 563 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 5: our own. Nobody can nobody can talk you into understanding 564 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 5: that you can break the cycle. You have to figure 565 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 5: it out. And I think that, like, it's it's helpful 566 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 5: if you have the benefit of other examples out there. 567 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 5: And I think that the reason that this generation is 568 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 5: doing so much better than the generations that came before 569 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 5: this is that we're all much more aware of like 570 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 5: the you know, psychological effects of being hit as a child, 571 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 5: of being like constantly told that you're not smart enough, Like, 572 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 5: we have a better understanding of this now, and so 573 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 5: more people of our generation raising young kids now are going, like, 574 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 5: my actions have consequences that linger that stay throughout their lives. 575 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 5: And I don't want for them to feel like I 576 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 5: feel like, I want for them to feel healthier. I 577 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 5: want for them to feel better and more secure and 578 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 5: more capable and more empowered. To live the life that 579 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 5: they want to live. And I think that that just 580 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 5: wasn't available to a lot of us when we were younger. 581 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 5: You know, it clearly wasn't available to Aileen. It speaks 582 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 5: to her character that she was able to come to 583 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 5: this conclusion despite not having any model for this understanding 584 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 5: in her own life. She was able to come to 585 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 5: this conclusion herself. And I think that's kind of that's 586 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 5: kind of magical in that sense. You know that she 587 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 5: was able to see it better life huge despite not 588 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 5: having had a good life. 589 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 4: It's huge. And also say, I don't have to carry 590 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 4: this legacy. I don't have to, Like you do it unconsciously. 591 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 4: You carry your family's legacy and kind but to rise 592 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 4: above it and go wait a minute, I don't have 593 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 4: to identify with this, you know, to get out of 594 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 4: that prison of your mind. To even become aware that 595 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 4: it is a prison and that you can unlock the 596 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 4: door and walk out is badass. It's incredibly heroic. 597 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 598 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 4: Like and well, and I'll go a little further. Even 599 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 4: the idea of like she talks about suicidal ideation, and 600 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 4: that is you know, the question is would would that 601 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 4: be a part of her mental process had it not 602 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 4: become normalized in her family. There's this history of generational 603 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 4: suicide in her family, and so so she so unconsciously. 604 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 4: I think that maybe she had that in the back 605 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 4: of her her mind, in the back of her soul 606 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 4: in some way that was that was saying, hey, you 607 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 4: can always check out. Other people have like it's not 608 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 4: uncommon in our family. Maybe that's why they checked out 609 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 4: or who knows what that conversation, that internal conversation, that 610 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 4: internal monologue was. But to stop that internal monologue and go, 611 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 4: you know what, I'm I don't have to have that 612 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 4: as as as part of my consciousness. 613 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I also think that there's something that even 614 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 5: goes further, you know, I think that there's this real 615 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 5: sense of the family being cursed and when you're raised 616 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 5: thinking that like it is not up to you how 617 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 5: your life goes, but it's up to some force that's 618 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 5: larger than you and ineffable and beyond you. Then there's 619 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 5: a sense of sort of fatalism there where it's it's 620 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 5: not just like, well, this is how my family deals 621 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 5: with pain is by killing themselves. It's like it's like 622 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 5: it is faded that I should that like we should 623 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 5: kill ourselves, that we should die off. And that's really 624 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 5: that's a really hard mental block to break. I imagine, 625 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 5: Like it's not just like my family fucked up, It's 626 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 5: like my family has a curse. My family is cursed. 627 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 5: So yeah, I mean, like I just think that it 628 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 5: Also it also speaks to what an incredible imagination you 629 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 5: would have to have to imagine a world beyond that, 630 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 5: to imagine a world beyond this deep belief system that 631 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 5: was like instilled with you. I think that that's incredible. 632 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 4: She also attributes it some of the causality here. She 633 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 4: very clearly attributes not just to her family, as though 634 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 4: the family's you know, carrying the specific curse, but she 635 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 4: attributes a lot of it to the fact that the 636 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 4: family tried to fit in in a world that was 637 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 4: sort of not kind to them and not not welcoming 638 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 4: them with open arms. You know, they struggled in ways 639 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 4: with bringing know, trying to assimilate into a new culture, 640 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 4: and that new culture never quite accepting them. How that 641 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 4: fueled a lot of the self loathing that she then inherited. 642 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 4: So she points at a larger systemic thing too, and 643 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 4: how these cultural differences in sort of racism or classism 644 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 4: or these other things sort of fed into this family curse, 645 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 4: if we want to call it that. You know, it's 646 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 4: not just her family, it's all of society that she's 647 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 4: sort of going, wait a minute, that that doesn't make sense, 648 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 4: that's not right, you know, and rebelling against that. 649 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 5: She's an incredible human being, and she's taken all of 650 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 5: this lifetime of trauma and has turned it toward a 651 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 5: lifetime of serving others and trying to make her community 652 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 5: stronger and. 653 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 4: Better, and channeled it into theater and art and sculpture 654 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 4: and music in ways that are just stunned. Next time 655 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 4: I'm alive again, we meet Dwayne Meadows. Because you're vibed 656 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 4: the devastating two thousand and four Indian Ocean tsunami qualfacationing 657 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 4: in Thailand. 658 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 6: I heard a scream and then I looked out to 659 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 6: the ocean, and I saw a far out in the 660 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 6: ocean that looked like some kind of small wave. The 661 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 6: next thing I remember, the water just comes gushing into 662 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 6: my room, moving incredibly fast, like a whitewater rafting trip. 663 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 6: And as I start to look around, I can see 664 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 6: debris everywhere now, and I mean cars, whole bungalows floating, 665 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 6: the buildings were breaking up. I got lucky with what 666 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 6: did hit me and what didn't hit me to make 667 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 6: it that day. 668 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 4: Swept a mile inland and then back out to see 669 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 4: by the powerful waves. 670 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 3: Dwayne's harrowing journey of. 671 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 4: Survival is one of quick thinking, resilience, and courage. In 672 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 4: the aftermath, he helped others to find safety and later 673 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 4: returned to Thailand to assist in rebuilding communities impacted by 674 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 4: the disaster. Our story producers are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, 675 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 4: Brent Die, Nicholas Dakoski, and Lauren Vogelbaum. Music by Ben Lovin, 676 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 4: additional music by Alexander Rodriguez. Our executive producers are Matthew 677 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 4: Frederick and Trevor Young. Special thanks to Alexander Williams for 678 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 4: additional production support. Our studio engineers are Rima L. K 679 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 4: Ali and Noames Griffin. Our editors are Dan Bush, Gerhart Slavitchka, 680 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 4: Brent Die, and Alexander Rodriguez. Mixing by Ben Lovett and 681 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 4: Alexander Rodriguez. I'm your host, Dan Bush. Special thanks to 682 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 4: Alien Loy for sharing her. 683 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: Remarkable story with us. 684 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 4: Alive again is a production of i Art Radio and 685 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 4: Psychopia Pictures. 686 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: If you have a transformative near death experience to share, 687 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear your story. 688 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 4: Please email us at Alive Again Project at gmail dot com. 689 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 4: That's a l i v e A g A I 690 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 4: N p R O j e c t at gmail 691 00:40:52,719 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 4: dot com.