1 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to say something on this podcast I have 2 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: never said before. Listener discretion is advised on this episode. 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: I've got a guest, and we are going to be 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: able to talk as real and raw as we ever 5 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: have about any subject. Ever, this is not for shock value. 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: This is four facts. So Melissa Wolfenberger went missing. She 7 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: was last seen by her mom November ninth, nineteen ninety eight. 8 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: Her husband said he last saw her December of nineteen 9 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: ninety eight. Her husband at that time was working at 10 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: a place called Action Glass. He never reported Melissa missing, 11 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: never called her family looking for her, never tries to 12 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: find her, never tells the children what actually happened to her, 13 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: moves out of their shared home and goes to South Georgia, 14 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: moves to a completely different city now and lives under 15 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: an assumed name. Then April the twenty ninth, nineteen ninety nine, 16 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: a severed skull is found on Avon Avenue in a 17 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: single trashbag. June third of nineteen ninety nine, arms and 18 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: legs are found also in trash bags down the street 19 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: from Avon Avenue. In November of nineteen ninety nine, Mom 20 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: finally starts reporting Melissa missing to law enforcement, and they 21 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,639 Speaker 1: finally take a missing person's report. A detective from another 22 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: jurisdiction gets involved, and when he sees that the skull 23 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: is on Avon Avenue, which is the same street where 24 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: Melissa's husband worked at Action Glass, he goes to Atlanta 25 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: with another Atlanta detective who already made the connection and says, hey, 26 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: this has got to be Melissafenberger. We need to do 27 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: some dental comparison. The remains on March the fourth, two 28 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: thousand and three are identified as Melissa Wolfenberger. Joe Scott Morgan. 29 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: All right, honey, let's get to it. Let's talk about 30 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: what happened to Melissa Wolfenberger after she was murdered. You know, 31 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: you sent me this case file some time ago. I 32 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: guess I've had it now for I don't know, back 33 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: maybe six months or so, and I again, you know, 34 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: looking through it, and it had a flood of memories 35 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: that kind of came back to me. And one of 36 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,279 Speaker 1: the reasons is is that I was actually senior investigator, 37 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: one of the senior investigators at the m's office when 38 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: this case occurred. It wasn't on my watch. I didn't 39 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: catch the case, but I was employed there during that 40 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: period of time. When I got the Melissa's death certificate, 41 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: I began to, you know, take a look at it, 42 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: and I noticed on the desertificate a name that's very, 43 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: very familiar to me. It's a man that held very 44 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,119 Speaker 1: dear and still due to this day in my heart. 45 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: And he's passed on now. And his name is doctor 46 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: John Parker. And doctor John was a fascinating character in 47 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: the world of forensic pathology. He started out as a 48 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: rural physician in Indiana, southern Indiana, just across the river 49 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: from Kentucky, and worked in an area that was just unbelievable, 50 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, that was kind of his background. He was 51 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: one of the original founders of the largest organization for 52 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: emergency medicine physicians in the nation, and he just got 53 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: burned out and he decided to go back an as 54 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: an older student and became a pathologist, went back and 55 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: did a pathology residency like a young physician, and wound 56 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: up doing his forensic training in Dallas. And doctor John 57 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: worked well up into his old older years. And I've 58 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: never been around a harder working person. I was actually 59 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: present one day with him when he did twenty six 60 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: autopsies in one day at four different locations, my lord, 61 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: over an eighty mile area. Yeah. That you know when 62 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: people often think about, you know, when I'm tired and 63 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: I don't think I'd go another step. Many times I'll 64 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: reflect back on doctor Parker and think about him being 65 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: seventy eight years old and traveling, you know, from Making, 66 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: Georgia all the way up to Gainsville, Georgia in a 67 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: single day, and then back home to Making, having done 68 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: twenty six autopsies along the way. You know, I think 69 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: he started out at like four in the morning with 70 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: four and Making, and then made his way up to 71 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: Henry County and then did autopsies at the State Medical Examiner, 72 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: and then wound up in Gainsville, Georgia and didn't get 73 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: done until like one in the morning, and then he 74 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: drove all the way back to Making. And so that's 75 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: the kind of person he was. And he was the 76 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist on this case. So when it would have 77 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: arrived to him, he would have been the initial recipient 78 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: that would have done the initial exam. And we can 79 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: learn something about this because about what he found with 80 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: the document dump that we have. What we have is 81 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: essentially doctor Parker's death certificate. We don't have like the 82 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: autopsy report necessarily, and there's a dental chart, you know, 83 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: that's kind of left behind for Melissa. But doctor Parker 84 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: makes a unique diagnosis. He talks about how Melissa's cause 85 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: of death is undetermined homicidal violence. And he goes on 86 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: to talk about how it involves the head and the 87 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: upper and lower extremities. You know why he says that 88 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: because he doesn't have a tor said or work with. 89 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: He never had a torso to work with, and he 90 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: could only draw these conclusions. And when you say undetermined 91 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: in a case like this, but yet you have a head. 92 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: Per doctor Parker's examination, Now I'm talking about from a 93 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: trauma perspective, we're not getting into the area where we 94 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: would discuss, say the anthropological considerations relative to what we 95 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: referred to as sexing the skull, trying to understand it 96 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: was a male or female. He was able, apparently to 97 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: rule out any kind of anti Mordham trauma anti Morham 98 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: meaning before death trauma to her skull, which would mean 99 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: that the structures, the bony structures of the face were intact, 100 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: the top of the head would have been intact. There 101 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: were no crushing injuries back there. There were apparently no 102 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: bullet holes in the side of the head, which many 103 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: times she would maybe with a suicide. And there are 104 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: no defects posteriorly, which if people at home will take 105 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: their hand and kind of put it put it back 106 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: on that knot on the back of your skull. That's 107 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: called your oxyput and it's kind of this bony protuberance 108 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: it's back there. It's one of the thickest bones in 109 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: the skull and it protects our brain stem. And you know, 110 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: when you think about things like an execution style homicide 111 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: with a handgun or a rifle or whatever you're talking about, 112 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: that's generally like the target area, you know, So he 113 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: would have he would have gone through all of that, 114 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: and he deduced that there was no fatal trauma to 115 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 1: her head. So when you're you're looking at this investigatively, 116 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: you begin to think, well, wow, that means that the 117 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: answers are going to lie elsewhere. And again that brings 118 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: us back to the torso, doesn't it or the neck 119 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: or the neck And you have to understand it because 120 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: there are there were some vertebra that still remained with 121 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: the head, but from what I can, you know, kind 122 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: of understand relative to this it wasn't many and the 123 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: vertebra had been sawed through, and he you know, he 124 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: made note of a mechanical saw that had dismembered the 125 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: body at least at that level, that the tool marks 126 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: that were left behind were consistent with something other than 127 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: a handheld saw. You know, you think about a carpenter 128 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: saw or hack saw or those sorts of things. That's 129 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: not what happened in this case. So you come away 130 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: with a lot of clues here. You understand that you 131 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: can eliminate fatal trauma relative to the head. We know 132 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: that whoever did this to her post mortem used a 133 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: tool that would require some level of skill. You'd have 134 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: to understand how to operate it. And I find it 135 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: very curious and maybe you can kind of remind me 136 00:08:54,520 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: of this, Sherrald. But if I'm not mistaken, her husband 137 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: had gotten in trouble over stolen saw. I think that 138 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: that's am I correct about that. You are correct. They 139 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: never could prove that he stole it, but everybody believed 140 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: in that company that he had been the one that 141 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: stole the saw. You know, ever since we started talking 142 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: about this case, I you know, I thought, well, okay, 143 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: you could kill her somewhere. You could kill her somewhere. 144 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: That's one thing to kill somebody. But you know, when 145 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: you get to the point where a body has been 146 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: this defiled, if you will post more on them, and 147 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: certainly on top of that, the body has been decomposing, 148 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: you're not going to have any soft tissue. So, for 149 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: folks that are listening to us right now, if you'll 150 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: take your hand and touch beneath your chin, on what's 151 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: referred to as the anterior structures of your neck, like 152 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: where your larynx is, where your voice box is, Guys, 153 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: where your Adam's apple is, and that that location. Those 154 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: are soft tissue areas, and I know that it feels 155 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: firm when you touch it, but after body has been 156 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: down for a while, that area begins to really degrade, 157 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: as would the other soft tissue markers on the skull 158 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: as well. We're talking about the scalp. You know there 159 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: might be strands of hair left, but there was no 160 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: and even in decomposition, you if there's enough soft tissue left, 161 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: you can see hemorrhage because the skin changes color and 162 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: you have to be you have to have some level 163 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: of skill when you're dealing with a homicide involving a 164 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: decomposing body, because the skin changes color, you have to 165 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: be your training has to be sufficient to the task 166 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: relative to delineating between what is referred to as decompositional 167 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: artifact when compared with what's referred to as traumatic artifact, 168 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: and traumatic artifact means that they may have been throttled 169 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: or strangled in some way, or maybe there was a 170 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: ligature applied to the neck that those soft tissue areas 171 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: of hemorrhage would not be appreciable after a certain amount 172 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: of decomposition. And here's another thing that people might not 173 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: know about with dismembered bodies. The more postmortem trauma you 174 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: introduce to a human remain and then they're in an 175 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: unprotected wild environment like this, the rate of decomposition increases. 176 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: Didn't that interesting? So you know, if a body is dismembered, 177 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: it promotes because you have all of these openings now, 178 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: And it's kind of logical again to sit in rocket science. 179 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: Those areas that would normally be protected even in death 180 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: are no longer protected. You've got these open areas that 181 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: have been opened by somebody that has gone through the 182 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: process of dismemberment until you stop and really think about 183 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: it and then put it into play. As a crime 184 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: scene investigator, it would be something that you might miss 185 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: or not be able to articulate in your report like 186 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: you would be able to want you hear somebody like 187 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: you break it down. I think that it's a hell 188 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: of a thing to expect any human being to be 189 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 1: able to focus something that quickly. That you're having to 190 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: contextualize something this horrific. You know, you want to try 191 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: to make sure that you cover as much as you 192 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: can and collect as much evidence as you can, and 193 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: interview as many people as you can and assess it 194 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: with every scientific tool that you have at your disposal. 195 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: But sometimes sometimes it's almost like a fine one. It 196 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: just it takes time for it to mature. And that's 197 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: why it's so really cool when you see cold cases 198 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: that are solved after many, many years. Sometimes it just 199 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: took a certain level of maturation before it was it 200 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: was possible. And I hope that that's going to be 201 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: the case with Melissa. Some people rely on their faith, 202 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: some people rely on Jack Daniels. I tend to rely 203 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: on just that level, and I know when I get 204 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: in there, and I work alone as a crime scene investigator. 205 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: It's just me and the body, and I'm taking pictures. 206 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: I tend to talk to that victim and I talk 207 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: out loud because what I'm doing. If I'm talking to 208 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: her and I'm telling her how sorry I am. This 209 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: has happened to her, and I'm gonna do everything I can, 210 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: but she's got to help me. I mean, I've got 211 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: to make sense of this room you're in. Why are 212 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: you here? Why are you on the sofa not the floor? 213 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: Why are you in the kitchen not the bedroom? Why 214 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: are you outside in the yard not at work? Like all, 215 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: I'm asking all these questions so that as I'm looking 216 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: at evidence, it becomes logical to me and it becomes 217 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: a movie. That's how my mind starts to work. I 218 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: can see the movie. So like Melissa, I've played this 219 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: over and over and over in my head and to me, 220 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: she's at home. They have an argument. They have an 221 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: argument like they've had a thousand times. This is a 222 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: volatile situation. And this couple, y'all, when they loved, they 223 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: loved harder than anybody else. But when it was bad, 224 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: it was bad. And I think this particular time he 225 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: grabbed her around the throat and he held on a 226 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 1: little too long and when she died. They live in 227 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: a duplex. How am I going to get her out 228 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: of here without people seeing? What can I do to 229 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: her that people won't question? Well, trash bags on the 230 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: back of a work utility truck. Nobody's going to look 231 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: at that twice. And then you go somewhere, Like you've 232 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: already said so perfectly, you know this area. You do 233 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: know when people are walking around, You know when people 234 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: open their business and close their business, you know when 235 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: the train goes by, So you know when to go 236 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: over there when there ain't nobody else over there, and 237 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: nobody's going to question you. Though when trash bags, they're 238 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: not even going to notice that. It's not going to 239 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: be anything unusual. So that's kind of my process. I 240 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: go there and it's snapshots at first, and then it's 241 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: a movie, but it's because I'm asking them about their life. 242 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: One of the things that has always concerned me about 243 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: Melissa's case. If she was killed in that duplex, is 244 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: it possible that she was rendered down there as well, 245 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: that she was actually dismembered there or had her body 246 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: been removed from that location and taken to a location 247 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: where there would not have been a copious amount of 248 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: blood left behind, because you know, when you facilitate like 249 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: you describe mac with the asphyxiation death, you're not going 250 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: to leave around a bunch of trace evidence like you 251 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: would if it was a stabbing or shooting or something 252 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: like that. But if she could be extricated under the 253 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: cover of darkness from say that townhouse, placed in a car, 254 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm one of the things I've thought 255 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: about was would it have been possible to have taken 256 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: her to that place of business and dismembered her there, 257 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: because you know, one of the things that happens that 258 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: that business is that they deal in glass. That means 259 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: that there is a lot of remnant that is on 260 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,239 Speaker 1: the floor. That means that they use saws in that location. 261 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: And they wouldn't have just used saws to cut glass, 262 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: like glass cutting saws. They would have used other kind 263 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: of saws to do framing with as well. Would there 264 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: have been a way, you know, I'm thinking, you know, 265 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: if it's if it's an industrial like setting, would you've 266 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: had solvents in there? Would you've had brooms and mobs 267 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: that you could have just commingled with all of the 268 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: rest of the debris in that environment, no one would 269 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: have been any of the wiser, because I can tell 270 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: you if you look at like the remnant of glass 271 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: dust compared to what we generate in the morgue, for instance, 272 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: when we open a skull, when we open a skull, 273 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: if you've ever seen none know the listeners have because 274 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: they watch crime shows. You hear that high pitched buzzing 275 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: sound when they turn on the bone saw. That's a 276 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: reciprocating saw. It's the brand is actually Striker. Other companies 277 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: make them. But you know, saying Striker to somebody that 278 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: works in the morgue, it's kind of like saying Jello 279 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: or Behind fifty seven. It's just it's the name that's given. 280 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,239 Speaker 1: You know, you say, hand me the Striker saw, and 281 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: that's the bone saw that we use, and we create 282 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: bone dust with that. So if you create that bone dust, 283 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: you commingle it with any kind of remnant that might 284 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: be on the floor in the shop there. It would 285 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: be easily disguised. But you know the shop is so 286 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: close to where the body was deposited. Why would you 287 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: deposit the body so close to the shop, you see. 288 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: There's a lot of questions here, you know, And if 289 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: you're in a duplex, who was living on either side 290 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: of you? Who could have heard this? Because if you're 291 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: using a saw in the middle of the night when 292 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: people are at home, maybe sleeping, it's a high pitched sound. 293 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: It's something you know, for any of us have ever 294 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: lived in an apartment, my gosh, you know, you can 295 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: hear anything, and there's a lot of stuff you don't 296 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: want to hear that's going on the other side of 297 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: the walls in these blazes, and certainly a saw would 298 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: have been heard. So you know that that's one of 299 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: the things that has run through my mind. You know 300 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: how I guess the bigger question and I you know, 301 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 1: and I think that it's important for, you know, for 302 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: listeners to hear this and think about this, because this 303 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: is in her case, it's going to take it's going 304 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: to take some reconsideration and people thinking about these sorts 305 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: of things that have time to think about them and 306 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: consider them. What would this individual have had to have 307 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: done in order to facilitate a dismemberment, Because the one 308 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: thing that you need other than skill and tools with 309 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: a dismemberment is privacy because it's something that will immediately 310 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: draw the eye, and it will draw the ear of 311 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: individuals that you might not otherwise be expecting it, be 312 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: expecting to hear a high pitched sound like I saw 313 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, or here somebody start 314 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: crying while they're in the middle of dismembering somebody that 315 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: they've created life with, wailing at the top of their lungs. 316 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: Maybe he's so cold that he didn't do it, Maybe 317 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: he had no emotional reaction to it. I don't know, 318 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: But it's all those little bits of information that come 319 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: to form the you know, the totality of the picture 320 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: that you're trying to render in order to solve a 321 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: coal case. Absolutely, and one thing, this is why it's 322 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: so important that when we work cases, we work them 323 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: as teams. Nothing is the Cheryl McCollum show. And I 324 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: like to reach out to people that are smarter than me, 325 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: have more experience than me, so that we can have 326 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: these conversations, so that no stone is left unturned, and 327 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: that's how you do it. But for me and my 328 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 1: head in my movie, it looks to me like why 329 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: and how would he risk taking a dead body out 330 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: of that house. Number one, being unseen when you've got 331 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: a neighbor literally your walls meet. And then drive a 332 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: dead body in a car, even if it is just 333 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: a short distance and risk being caught. Then take that 334 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: body inside where you've got the privacy, where's all that 335 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: blood going. And then you've got to get rid of 336 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: that salt, because yeah, there ain't no way to clean 337 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: that thing. And then you still have to take the 338 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: body out of that place and dispose of it, and 339 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: you just do it right there. You don't even bother 340 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: to take it away from where you're tied to. So 341 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: clearly there were some mistakes made here that are again 342 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: to me, they're fascinating, just like you're saying in our world. 343 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: Whenever you and I can come across the case that 344 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: still fascinates us and confuses us and leave us kind 345 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: of going, we're not sure how this happened. Then that 346 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: tells you the level of who done it that we're at. 347 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: One of the unfortunate initial problems with the cases that 348 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: the skull was misidentified or misgendered relative to when the 349 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: skull was examined. They're thinking that this is a male skull. 350 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: And there's certain things, certain physical characteristics that you look for, 351 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, with a male skull, and sometimes you know, 352 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: the anthropologists they look at these. They have a scale 353 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: that they'll apply that has number values when they're attempting 354 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: to make these assessments. Okay, if a skull is totally 355 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: what they refer to as being defleshed, which means there's 356 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: no more soft tissue left, you don't have the same. 357 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 1: It's not because even if you have a decomposing body, 358 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: you can still make out physical attributes, you know, just 359 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: by eyeballing you get fooled sometimes, but when you have 360 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: a skull that is defleshed, it makes it all the 361 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: more difficult, you know, And I'll give you an example. 362 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: You know, some of the things that they're going to 363 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: look for. There's two terms that they use to delineate 364 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: between male and female skulls. They use males tend to 365 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: be the skulls have a what's referred to as a 366 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 1: robust appearance. And when you look at look at the 367 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: brow line. If you'll just run your finger, you know 368 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: where your eyebrows are right there. Males tend to have 369 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: more of a robust brow line. It'll be what sometimes 370 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: they'll call it protuberant, and you can look at that 371 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, that kind of looks, you know, kind 372 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: of robust. It might be a male. And then you 373 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: look at the other the other dominant features, like I 374 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: talked about the accipital area in the back of the head. 375 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: If it's rather robust that protuberants on the back of 376 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: the head, that's another indication. There's all and the jaw 377 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: as well. If you have a jaw, that's a real 378 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: big tael when you're trying to remember, we don't have 379 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: a pelvist to go by, so they're trying to sex 380 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: the skeleton simply based on skull. Conversely, when you look 381 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: at female features, there's a term that they use and 382 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: it's referred to as grassisle, which means fine, you know, 383 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: there's kind of a finer appearance. When this case initiated, 384 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: you're kind of already behind the eight ball if you've 385 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: misidentified a body, and the reason is is that you 386 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: know you're looking Melissa is the one that's missing. Of course, 387 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: she wasn't reported missing for a period of time, but 388 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: we know that every grain that drops through the hour glass, 389 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: that's precious time and precious information that might be dwindling 390 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: at that point in time. If the correct identification had 391 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: been made on the skull and she had been identified 392 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: rightly as female at that point in time early on, 393 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: the course of the case might might have changed. When 394 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: I took some training at the Body Farm at the 395 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: University of Tennessee, Knoxville with doctor Donnie Steadman, just on skulls, 396 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: just on bones. It was so fascinating to me that 397 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: she could just pick up a skull, tell you race, 398 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: tell you male or female. Of course, identifying injuries that 399 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: were made with a forty caliber versus a hammer, and 400 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: all that sort of thing. But in looking at what 401 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: we had there in that trash bag at Avon Avenue, 402 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: the perpetrator had also cut all her hair off and 403 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: had doused her in chlorox So what do you make 404 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: of that? Do you think they were trying to make 405 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: sure somebody misidentified her or do you think it was 406 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: part of the punishment. In domestic violence cases, I've seen 407 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: more than once, even with live victims, that the perpetrator 408 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: cut their hair. So I just wanted what you thought 409 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: if you're trying to exercise the ultimate control mac over 410 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: a person in an asymmetrical relationship, such as with domestic abuse. 411 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: I mean, death is the ultimate, you know, with us, 412 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: and then to take it a level behind, there's a 413 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: lot of psychopathy that goes in there. You take a 414 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: woman and I've seen pictures of Melissa. She had beautiful hair, 415 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: she really did. It was really thick, kind of brown, 416 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: and a beautiful smile. It looked like she'd light up 417 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: the room, and these gorgeous eyes. And when you begin 418 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: to use the term defile earlier, and I truly mean 419 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: that when you defile a person like this in death, 420 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: that says so much about the psychopathology of the individual 421 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: that's doing this. They're looking to strike out an individual 422 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: in order to do this, it would there be a 423 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 1: lot of anger involved, you know. I think that cutting 424 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: hair is kind of an interesting way of going about 425 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: disfiguring somebody. Bleach would not be necessarily utilized to disfigure 426 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: somebody with if it were acid, I'd say yes. I 427 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: think bleach might go to perhaps an idea of preparation 428 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: where they're trying to eradicate any kind of physical connectivity 429 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: between themselves and the individual, where they're trying to essentially 430 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: wash away any kind of evidence, if you will, by 431 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: use of an agent like bleach. But the cutting with hair, 432 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what that means other than you're trying 433 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: to disfigure the person. How much blood is in the 434 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: human body, and when you start cutting arms and legs, 435 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: how much cleaning are you talking about? And again, what 436 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: is happening to her body that you and I could 437 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: draw from? I mean, let me just ask you this. 438 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: Can you even determine what was cut off first? Can 439 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: you determine? I know you said the circular solve versus 440 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: a knife and things like that, but what else should 441 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: we be looking for as investigators? Well, when you're let me, 442 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: let me go back to what you what you had 443 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: mentioned what was cut off first? There's really no way 444 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: to tell that in death. The only way to ascertain 445 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: sequencing is and again this is very limited, is if 446 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: something was done to her in the anti mortem state, 447 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: which means before death. And I'll give you an example. 448 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: If someone is cut in life, you're gonna have indwelling, 449 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: hemorrhage and soft tissue. Okay, that just stands to reason. 450 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: You're going through the capillary beds, are going to hemorrhage, okay, 451 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: and you'll have, you know, hemorrhage into what's referred to 452 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: as the interstitial tissue, which is the tissue not involving 453 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: the vessels, but where the vessels kind of pass through. 454 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: It's what creates contusions or bruises. So we can determine 455 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: that in the postmortem state if it was done before death. Right. However, 456 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: sequencing is very difficult to do after death because you 457 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,239 Speaker 1: don't have this kind of trail of trauma. You know 458 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: that the body is responding to it's just there's really 459 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: no way to tell. You would have to have some 460 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: other kind of circumstantial evidence that would give you an 461 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: indication of sequencing as to you know, what what went first. 462 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: So if if she's in postmartum state, she's dead when 463 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: this is being done to her, and Lord knows, I 464 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: hope that that was the case, there would be little 465 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: or no evidence that would indicate, you know, in what 466 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: order it went. I think that as far as the 467 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: volume of blood, it's going to vary dependent upon the 468 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: person in certain circumstances, and you know, the volume is 469 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: going to be dependent upon male female, the size of 470 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: the individual, the age of the individual. Roughly, you know, 471 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: if you want to put your you know, kind of 472 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: an approximation would be two gallons essentially. So you're looking 473 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: at that and that's, let's face it, that's a damp mess. 474 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 1: That's a mess. And look, I mean we've all had 475 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: to deal with blood in one way or another throughout 476 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: our life. You know, you know what a mess it is. 477 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: And it's hard. It's hard to clean up. It's hard 478 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: to clean up your own blood. The thing about blood 479 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: is this, when you're around it, you don't know where 480 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: it's going. You don't you know, you might make an 481 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: attempt to clean it up. And even if you have 482 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 1: made an attempt to clean it up, you know, we 483 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: can get to the root of that with reagents that 484 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: we can go in with and you know, visualize things, yeah, 485 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: luminol or blue star or any of those things. But 486 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: you can also find fully intact contact traces of blood 487 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: that were never attempted to be cleaned up. And you 488 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: have to try to understand the dynamics of it as well. 489 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: You know, is this blood associated with like an action event, 490 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, where you've got deposition as a result of 491 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: a high velocity or medium velocity or a low velocity event, 492 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: or is this just kind of passive dripping, you know, 493 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: which you would see with a dismemberment. Let's say, for instance, 494 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: you're use it. Well, this goes both ways. If you're 495 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: using a saw and it's say like a circular saw, 496 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: you get two types of blood deposition with this. So 497 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: you have a spinning blade and as a blade is 498 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: contacting the tissue, it's going through the vessels, and the 499 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: vessels contain blood and it's not flowing blood on the 500 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: dead obviously, but blood nonetheless, and so it's going to 501 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: take that blood and cast it off almost like you 502 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: know we hear about cast off with a knife. With 503 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: a saw, a mechanical saw, you're going to see a 504 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: unique pattern it's left behind. Now we have that dynamic 505 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: blood deposition with that. Then after you've utilized a saw, 506 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: and say the individual takes a saw and lifts it up, 507 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 1: well that that blade, that contact surface of that blade 508 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: is going to be a wash with blood, right, and 509 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: so you'll have passive dripping off of that. So those 510 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: two types of blood depositions are going to look completely different. 511 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: And that's one of the ways that we can try 512 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: to understand at a scene the movements of an individual. 513 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: You know, they started cutting here. Maybe they readjusted their position, 514 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: they readjusted the body, maybe they realized that they needed 515 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: to leverage the body in a different way to get 516 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: to a specific area. And it's very difficult. Trust me, 517 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: I've participated over seven thousand autopsies. I know something about 518 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: pro section or you know, dissection, but humans and pro 519 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: section of human remains. And first off, we have all 520 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: of the right tools and the morgue to do this with. 521 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: If you're talking about somebody that's in a domestic environment, 522 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: all they have or you know, a set of Walmart 523 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: steak knives or some cheap butcher knife that doesn't have 524 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: very good edge on it, and they've got some tool 525 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: from work, it's going to be ghastly ghastly business. You're 526 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: going to leave a trail behind and you don't have 527 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: any way to clean the area sufficiently. You know, we 528 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: use all kinds of methodologies and the morgue to clean 529 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: the fafter what we do. The morgue and the autopsy 530 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: table is made for this purpose. If you're talking about 531 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: doing this in a house, that's a different kettle of fish, 532 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: completely completely. That's why it's so it's so difficult to 533 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: do this unless you have a specific location where you 534 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: can be very sequestered and have access to everything that 535 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: you're going to need at that point in time. And 536 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,959 Speaker 1: not only did you have time, space and tools, you 537 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: also weren't freaked out thinking any minute I could get caught. Yeah, 538 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: I don't have John lawbreathing down my neck. That's right, 539 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, because gilt plays in gil plays into this. 540 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: There's a certain level of awareness if you will, you know, 541 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: you're heightened senses. Okay, okay, yeah, let's think about this. 542 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: We've just committed a homicide. Oh okay, Now after we've 543 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: done this thing which the lion's share of people in 544 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: this world cannot identify, Now we're going to go to 545 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: the next level and dismember a body. So not only 546 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: do we have the homicide to contend with, now we're 547 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: going to destroy human remains. So you talk about being 548 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: self aware, or maybe there's maybe it's the opposite. Maybe 549 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: you don't have any any level of self awareness. You can't, 550 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: you know, there's no way we can sit here and 551 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: say that that it couldn't be done in an apartment. 552 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: Look what Jeffrey Dahmer did. Absolutely Now he had he 553 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: had practice, you know, and it's horrible say that, but 554 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: over a period of time, there's a certain level of 555 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: skill that you're acquiring, you know, as you go through this. 556 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: Assuming that this individual that's the first time he's he's 557 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: done this, and keep in mind he's doing this allegedly 558 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: to someone that he had an intimate relationship with. That's 559 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: another factor that goes into this. So a lot is 560 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: at play here. And y'all, I want to thank j 561 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: Got Morgan one more time for not just being my friend, 562 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: but for all the years that he spent helping over 563 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: seven thousand families get answers from autopsies. And I also 564 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: want to say salute to doctor John Parker, Joe Scott, 565 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: thank you so much. And I'm going to finish Zone 566 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: seventh the way that I always do with a quote 567 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: from somebody from my Zone seven and tonight the quote 568 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: is just remember when you get frustrated by difficult cases, 569 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: one should not pursue goals which are easily achieved. This 570 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: is our cold case motto at the Fulton County Cold 571 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: Case Squad. Stay forward. Sheila Ross, Assistant distric Attorney, Fulton County. 572 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seventh,