1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listening on 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Monday edition of sound On. We're back 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: inside the Bubble. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. Glad you're 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: with us. The new week begins here in Washington with 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: one story overriding just about anything involving actual policy. That, 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: of course, would be the federal indictment against Donald Trump 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: and the former president. His supporter spent the weekend trying 11 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: to shape this story through speeches and the media. Not 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: everyone agreeing with him, but the former president himself was 13 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 2: in Georgia going after Attorney General Merrick Garland of Special Counsels, 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: Jack Smith. 15 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,639 Speaker 3: We have a thug that's in george This is a 16 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: political hit job. Republicans are treated far differently at the 17 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 3: Justice Department than Democrats. 18 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 4: These are the. 19 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 3: Same people who cause the lowest learner catastrophe. That's just deranged. 20 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 5: Jack. 21 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 3: You know, you're you know I'm talking about the name 22 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 3: straight Jack Smith. What do you think his name used 23 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 3: to be. 24 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 6: I don't know anybody have it. 25 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 3: Jacksonth sounds so innocent. 26 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: He's deranged, deranged, he said, And it's still unclear to me. 27 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: Where is he going with the name thing. That's not 28 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: the first time he's done that. Clearly does not believe 29 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: that's his real name. I'm not sure what he's implying, 30 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 2: but he did even go after his wife, and his wife. 31 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 3: Is even more of a Trump Peter. I wish you're 32 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 3: a lot of luck, but he's he's a bad Trump Paiter, 33 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 3: and she's a Trump paiter, and you shouldn't put people 34 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: like that in And. 35 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 2: He calls it the boxes hoaxes. I have a box. 36 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 2: You send me to Jill for having a box. But 37 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: the former president's Attorney General, Bill Barr made it pretty 38 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: clear in an interview on Fox News that the thirty 39 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: seven count indictment is very serious business for his old boss. 40 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 7: I do think we have to wait and see what 41 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 7: the defense says and what proves to be true. But 42 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 7: I do think that even half what Andy McCarthy said, 43 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 7: which is, if half of it is true, then he's toast. 44 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 7: I mean, it's a pretty it's a very detailed indictment 45 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 7: and it's very, very damning, and this idea of presenting 46 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 7: Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt, 47 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 7: is ridiculous. 48 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: She's toast. That's where we begin with Sarah Fordon, who 49 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: leads our DC legal team here at Blueberg. Sarah, it's 50 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: great to see you. Thank you for giving us some 51 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: time on what I know is an incredibly busy time 52 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: for you. But this is of course going to play 53 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 2: out tomorrow in Miami. And before I ask you, what 54 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: might happen tomorrow in Florida based on what we're hearing, 55 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 2: I know he's got a lot of allies in the 56 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 2: Republican Party. When you listen to Bill Barr, the former 57 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: Attorney General, he really brings it home for you here 58 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: that while other former presidents have been investigated and are 59 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: being investigated in the case of Joe Biden for mishandling 60 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: classified documents, this case reaches a very different level when 61 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: it begins beginning with obstruction. Is that a fair way 62 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: to put it? 63 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 8: Absolutely, Joan, and thank you for having me on your show. 64 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 8: And I think it is fair to say this is 65 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 8: a very serious and extraordinary indictment. We've had legal analysts 66 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 8: looking at this We are talking about the Espionage Act, 67 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 8: which is the wilful retention of national security information. We 68 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 8: are talking multiple counts of retaining classified documents. We are 69 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 8: talking about obstruction of justice. So all of these added 70 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 8: up are serious federal charges against the former president. And 71 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 8: what we're also seeing is that the actual detail the 72 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 8: narrative in this indictment is extraordinary. You have Trump's own words, 73 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 8: and Jack Smith really, you know, outlines everything that Trump 74 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 8: said himself about Hillary Clinton and her handling of documents, 75 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 8: and so these this narrative conveys that Trump actually knew 76 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 8: that what he was doing was wrong. He had promised 77 00:03:54,600 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 8: to go after the former candidate for such handling of documents. 78 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 8: And in addition, the details about what his lawyers said 79 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 8: is also quite extraordinary. 80 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: Well, that's it is extraordinary in fact that his former 81 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: legal representation actually ended up helping this case. 82 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 8: Didn't He yes, in fact, and there are detailed notes. 83 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 8: Now we're waiting to see if they may end up 84 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 8: getting thrown out of the case in Florida. The other 85 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 8: development we had was the last minute shift of this 86 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 8: entire case from Washington courtroom. 87 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: Can you explain it to me how that happened? Without 88 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: anyone being aware of it until essentially being on the 89 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: eve of this indictment going public. 90 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 8: Yeah, we were actually watching for this because there is 91 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 8: a guideline that cases should be brought in the jurisdiction 92 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 8: where the alleged crimes take place, and so that is 93 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 8: the case since the documents. 94 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: So it began here because the Special Council was here. 95 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: Then they moved it to Florida. But there was a thought, 96 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: my goodness, this could take time. You'd have to brief 97 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: the whole new grand jury. Did they simply do that 98 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: very quickly or what happened over the past two weeks. 99 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 8: Our understanding is that a member of Jacksmith's team was 100 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 8: actually able to read the evidence to the grand jury 101 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 8: in Florida, so that they were able to make the charge. 102 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 2: Of pretty seamless. 103 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 8: So it's actually pretty seamless. 104 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 9: You know. 105 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 8: We did know that the grand jury was seated in Washington, 106 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 8: there were witnesses coming in, but they can transfer that 107 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 8: to another grand jury. And our understanding is also that 108 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 8: this was in part to head off also a venue 109 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 8: fight over whether Washington was the right court to bring 110 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 8: these cases, because jack Smith also promised the speedy trial 111 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 8: when he made the announcement. They're trying to move quickly 112 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 8: on this, and they were trying to head off a 113 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 8: situation that could really drag out the whole proceeding. 114 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: Great work and great reporting, Sarah, Thank you for setting 115 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: us up here, Thanks for having us on Bloomberg Radio. 116 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: As always, as we add the voice of Rebecca Royfei, 117 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: Professor of law at New York Law School, former Assistant 118 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: District Attorney for Manhattan. Rebecca has been a reliable voice 119 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: through a number of different legal turns involving the former 120 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 2: president and some others. It's great to have you back, Rebecca. 121 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: What's going to happen tomorrow in in Miami? Is it 122 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: true that we will not see the former president? Most likely? 123 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 10: Most likely not. He will through his lawyers, plead guilty. 124 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 10: There may be some scheduling discussion about discovery, which is 125 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 10: the process by which one side obtains information that the 126 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 10: other side is going to use a trial, and perhaps 127 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 10: a schedule for motions might be determined as well. 128 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: Okay, and because it's federal court, no cameras, so we're 129 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 2: not going to even get that glimpse that we did in. 130 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 10: New York, right exactly, So perhaps a little anti climactic 131 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 10: in that way, but of course a historical moment, and 132 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 10: that this would be the first president to be under 133 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 10: a former president to be under indictment. 134 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and that's partly why we wanted to 135 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: talk to you, because you can help us frame these 136 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: things in the context of history as well. The President 137 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: calling this a travesty, the weaponization of the Justice Department. 138 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: But of course we heard from Bill Barr, his former 139 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: Attorney General, who I thought is very clear in his 140 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: remarks on Fox News Sunday. Listen again to him making 141 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: that distinction between personal documents and top secret government documents. 142 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 7: Here he is and the government's documents. They're official records. 143 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 7: They're not his personal records. Battle plans for an attack 144 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 7: on another country or Defense Department documents about our capabilities 145 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 7: are in no universe Donald J. Trump's personal documents. They 146 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 7: are the government's documents. 147 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: So obviously this is important here as the President suggests 148 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: that they were his documents and that he declassified them 149 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: by thinking about it. Rebecca, how important though, is the 150 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: sharing of these documents. Willful retention is the language that 151 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: I keep hearing with the involving the Espionage Act. But 152 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: did he need to show these as well to someone 153 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: to fulfill that charge? 154 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 10: Well, you know, there are two different questions going on here. 155 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 10: One is what are the technical elements in order to 156 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 10: make out the crime? And the second is, you know, 157 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 10: whether this is an appropriate prosecution. And I think that 158 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 10: you know, the public is looking to see are like 159 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 10: case is being treated alike or does the former president 160 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 10: have an argument that in fact, you know, this is 161 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 10: a political hitchob this is the weaponization of the Department 162 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 10: of Justice. And one of the ways in which this indictment, 163 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 10: which is extremely detailed, conveys that this is an appropriate 164 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 10: indictment is by including these sorts of details that may 165 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 10: not be technically required in order to make out the 166 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 10: elements of the crime, but are important in terms of 167 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 10: thinking about the culpability and what's at stake in these laws. So, 168 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 10: just as Bill Barr was saying, this is not just 169 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 10: a box's case, this is not just about keeping paper. 170 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 10: There's something at stake here that's extremely important. And I 171 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 10: think the document itself was not only trying to make 172 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 10: out the case, but also make out the case for 173 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 10: how important this kind of prosecution is. 174 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Well, I mean we heard kid Rock on 175 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: the Tucker Crosson Show describing being shown documents about North Korea, 176 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: for instance, I just wonder if the sharing of the 177 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: document is going to be a major component of this 178 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: case or just the fact that he refused to return 179 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: them is what we're actually talking about here. 180 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 10: Again, I think that, you know, what we're really talking 181 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 10: about is the willful failure to return these documents. However, 182 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 10: I think the details about him showing these documents, weaving 183 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 10: a document around, showing into Political Action Committee leader all 184 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 10: people who are do not have the appropriate security clearance 185 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 10: to see these documents makes it such that in the 186 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 10: eyes of the public, at least potentially, this could be 187 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 10: seen as something serious and also distinguished from these other 188 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 10: cases that are looming around that the public has heard about. 189 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 10: You know, Hillary Clinton, there was vice president former Vice 190 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 10: president Mike Pence. There was even the current President Biden 191 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 10: who had documents. So how does the Department of Justice 192 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 10: bring its case focus on the law and facts, but 193 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 10: also help legitimacy of this prosecution by making it clear 194 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 10: why it's appropriate to bring this case while it wasn't 195 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 10: appropriate or potentially not appropriate to bring cases in those 196 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 10: other incidents. 197 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 2: Well, you're essentially answering the question that I was going 198 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 2: to ask you, which is, you know, the talking points 199 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: that we keep hearing involving Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden primarily, 200 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 2: that's what we heard a lot about over the weekend, 201 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: the email server with Hillary Clinton that was destroyed, and 202 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: the documents that were stored in the garage with the corvette. 203 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: The question is what makes those different and is there, 204 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: in fact a double standard as so many are suggesting. 205 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: Even the Speaker of the House went there. 206 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 10: Right, and he may and I think probably will bring 207 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 10: what's called the selective prosecution case, arguing that he's being 208 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 10: singled out, targeted for political purposes, the weaponization of the 209 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 10: Department of Justice. I don't think that. I mean, there's 210 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 10: a very little chance that that would succeed, in part 211 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 10: because there are so many allegations, detailed allegations in the indictment, 212 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 10: but also because the facts are so different here from 213 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 10: those instances. But you know, with Donald Trump, there is 214 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 10: always two parallel things going on. One is legal battles 215 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 10: in which he's making arguments or his lawyers are making 216 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 10: arguments for him, trying to fight in the courtroom. And 217 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 10: then secondly, there's a political battle or public relations battle, 218 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 10: and he seems to be doing better on that latter 219 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 10: front in terms of convincing certain people not others, that 220 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 10: this is inappropriate. And so while the prosecutors are not 221 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 10: playing that game, they can't be completely ignorant of the 222 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 10: fact that that's going on. And so of course in 223 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 10: this indictment they're addressing the legal arguments and also in 224 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 10: some ways at least defending against these allegations that this 225 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 10: is inappropriate. 226 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 2: Sarah Forden mentioned before you joined us, Rebecca, that the 227 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: special counsel is promising a speedy trial here. I think 228 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: that's actually called for were already, But what's the timeline 229 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: on this case, knowing we're stepping into a presidential election cycle? 230 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 10: You know again, I think we will see a little 231 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 10: bit more of that. Perhaps at the arraignment, perhaps we'll 232 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 10: have a greater glimpse of of what the timeline is here. 233 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 10: But I think, you know, given all of the motions 234 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 10: that are going to be vigorously argued in this case, 235 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,479 Speaker 10: I'm not sure it will be difficult for the prosecutors 236 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 10: to bring this case in a way that doesn't run 237 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 10: up against that KA got. 238 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: It great insights. Many thanks to you, Rebecca for the conversation. 239 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: Rebecca Royfie, professor of law at New York Law School, 240 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: the former Assistant DA from Manhattan. Back with us here 241 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 2: on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. They say, 242 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: is Bloomberg sound on as we assemble our panel for 243 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 2: their take on all of this. Bloomberg Politics contributor Geenie 244 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: Shanzino is with us along with John Siddeliti's partner at 245 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: Trilogy Advisors. He advised the State Department Under Secretary of 246 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 2: Mike Pompeo. They're both with us now, Jeanie, how's everybody 247 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: doing on this? Because if you're a Democrat, this may 248 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: not pan out to be very good news, as it 249 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: appears to be strengthening the hand of Donald Trump on 250 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: a number of levels. Here and Joe Biden is still 251 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: in the midst of his own documents case that a 252 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: lot of Republicans are pointing to, how does he manage it? 253 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 11: Well, you know, I think Joe Biden manages it the 254 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 11: way he has been He does not spend much time 255 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 11: with the Attorney General Merrick Garland. He keeps quiet and 256 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 11: he keeps doing his job. But the reality is is 257 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 11: that Joe Biden needs Donald Trump. So there is a 258 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 11: way in which a strengthened Donald Trump hurts the Republican 259 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 11: Party and doesn't hurt Joe Biden. So I think that's 260 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 11: something to keep in mind. And I'm not saying there 261 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 11: you know, there are any efforts to strengthen Donald Trump 262 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 11: on the part of Joe Biden or anybody else. But 263 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 11: the reality is, Joe Biden's numbers aren't that good, but 264 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 11: he has a chance in a general to beat Donald Trump, 265 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 11: and I would suggest he can beat him in those 266 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 11: all important purple districts and purple states where Trump is 267 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 11: going to have a difficult time, particularly with all these indictments. 268 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: John pretty interesting polling data from CBS News you Gov 269 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: over the weekend. Among likely Republican primary voters, seventy six 270 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 2: percent said the indictment was politically motivated. That's going to 271 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: be a narrative that the former president tries to drive 272 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: home and he's got a lot of friends in doing it. 273 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: Speaker McCarthy's saying such. Senator Lindsey Graham out on Sunday 274 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: morning saying such. Does that tell you that it makes 275 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: him more likely to win the nomination. 276 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 4: There's no way of knowing how this will affect the 277 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 4: actual nominating process. But the point that you underscore is 278 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 4: very important here, Joe, and that is that Trump's supporters 279 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 4: will tell anyone that's pulling them that Trump has been 280 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 4: under investigation or under attack by intelligence agencies and the 281 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 4: so called deep state in Washington, DC for seven years 282 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: and this is simply the latest saga. And I think 283 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 4: you mentioned earlier, maybe one of your guests did, about 284 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 4: the so called box hoax, and so this is seen 285 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 4: as the latest in his series of hoaxes. And I 286 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 4: don't know how many of Trump's seventy million voters are 287 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 4: going to to stick with him through this nominating process. 288 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 4: But as Rebecca noted, this will play out both in 289 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 4: the court of law and in the court of public opinion. 290 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: It is in those two results, and it might be different. 291 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, John hold that thought. Genie 292 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: and John with us as we take a deep dive 293 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: with our panel. 294 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 5: Next. 295 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the 296 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 297 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: tune in alf Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business app. 298 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 299 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 300 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: As we prepare for the big court date tomorrow in Miami. 301 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: Fascinating polling data from CBS News and you goov. I 302 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 2: already mentioned one which is not necessarily a surprise. A 303 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 2: vast majority of likely Republican primary voters seventy six percent 304 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: in fact, say the indictment was politically motivated, But far 305 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: more interesting to me is this question of national security. 306 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: Most Republican primary voters also did not generally consider Donald 307 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: Trump keeping these documents with nuclear systems or military planning 308 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: to be a national security risk. Thirty eight percent likely 309 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: GOP primary voters call it a risk eighty rest of 310 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 2: the country eighty percent. So there's not a lot of 311 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: agreement on this, as we heard play out on Sunday 312 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: Morning television and another quarters of the news media. Senator 313 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: Lindsey Graham, of course, Trump ally probably put it best 314 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 2: if you want to understand that train of thinking. In 315 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: an interview on ABC This Week with George Stephanopolis, Donald 316 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: Trump said repeatedly, repeatedly that he did nothing wrong. Do 317 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: you believe that? Well, here's what I believe. 318 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 9: We live in in America where if you're the Democratic 319 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 9: candidate for President Hillary Clinton secretary of state, you can 320 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 9: set up a private server in your basement to conduct 321 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 9: government business and when an investigation has had about your activity. Now, 322 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 9: let me finish I answering the question was ridiculous. Well, yeah, 323 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 9: I'm trying to answer the question from a Republican point 324 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 9: of view that may not be acceptable on this show. 325 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: Not a happy guy in that interview, and it does 326 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: give you a sense of how a lot of Republicans 327 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: are looking at this. We reassembled our panel to continue 328 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 2: to the conversation with Genie Shanzano, and John said, Alitis, 329 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: you were getting to this point here, John, And it 330 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily indicate you know what's reality, how the case 331 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 2: is going to play out. But if you're a Republican 332 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: looking at this, okay, you might think it's politically motivated. 333 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: Do you also see a potential national security risk? 334 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 4: I guess that remains to be seen. Depends on what 335 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 4: kind of a case the prosecutors can prove when this 336 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 4: family goes to a court of law. Right, I mean, 337 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 4: these are all allegations in the indictment, but they still 338 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 4: have to prove their case, and technically Donald Trump is 339 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 4: innocent until proven guilty, So I think there will be 340 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 4: several questions about whether or not these actions endangered national security, 341 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 4: and I'm not sure there's evidence in the indictment that 342 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 4: they have. Did Trump actually show the secrets and the 343 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 4: maps to these reporters. I think it was an editor 344 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 4: and a reporter that was taped. Or did he wave 345 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 4: a folder in the air or point to a box 346 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 4: in the corner. It's difficult to define that, at least 347 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 4: from the indictment. And I think the larger point here, 348 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 4: Joe is going to be the extent to which they 349 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 4: were going to be, say comparisons to what happened with 350 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 4: Richard Nixon in nineteen seventy four, there was overwhelming evidence 351 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 4: that on a bipartisan level, that Richard Nixon had committed 352 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 4: a series of crimes that were able to persuade the 353 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 4: American people together that he needed to be forced out 354 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 4: of office. With this particular episode, if half the country 355 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 4: thinks that this is all a witch hunt, as Donald 356 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 4: Trump claims, we're going to be in for a very 357 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 4: very difficult political period, not only through the presidential cycle 358 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 4: ending in twenty twenty four, but perhaps for years to come. 359 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: Calls it a fake indictment, Genie, it's a box hoax. 360 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: Here's the president again in Georgia in this. 361 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 3: All, and they don't even once mention the Presidential Records Act, 362 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 3: which is really the ruling Act, which this case falls 363 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 3: under one hundred percent, because they want to use something 364 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 3: called the espionage ack. 365 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 11: Doesn't that sound terrible? 366 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 5: Oh, espionage? 367 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 6: We got a box. 368 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 5: I got a box. 369 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: He's got a box, Genie. You've heard so far from 370 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: only Republican voices on this program so far this hour 371 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: supporting him or in the case of Bill Barr not. 372 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: Do Democrats need to be winding up a narrative on 373 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: this as well? 374 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 5: Now? 375 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 11: I think Democrats need to let the legal system play out. 376 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 11: And the reality is is that the conflation of the 377 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 11: legal and political is exactly what Trump and his supporters 378 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 11: want to do, Which is why I think it's so 379 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 11: important that you know, you started with Sarah and Rebecca 380 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 11: legal experts. We're going to talk about the legality, and 381 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 11: on the legality, at least as far as we know 382 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 11: at this point, if the indictment pans out. It is 383 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 11: a very strong and deafening case against Trump. The political 384 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,239 Speaker 11: case is a whole different ballgame, and it's in his 385 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 11: interest to continue to conflate the two, and everybody has 386 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 11: to avoid that. You know, the reality is this was 387 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 11: a stupid self inflicted wound by Trump. Had he given 388 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 11: the documents back, had he responded to the subpoena, he 389 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 11: would not be in this situation. And the reality is 390 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 11: is that if he is not found guilty, if again 391 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 11: this indictment is, you know, found, if they are able 392 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 11: to support it and make their case, that's a big 393 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 11: if in court. If he is not found guilty of 394 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 11: this after saying he knew he had classified documents he 395 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 11: should have, then what does that say about the ability 396 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 11: of the United States to protect state secrets? Who could 397 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 11: on the heels of that be prosecuted ever, Because if 398 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 11: you and know what you did, and you still did 399 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 11: it with top secret classified documents over three hundred and 400 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 11: you have boxes in your shower, not just one, but 401 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 11: numerous in a public setting, nobody is going to be 402 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 11: able to be charged under this. And of course it's 403 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 11: ridiculous because the reason he's charged under the Espionage Act 404 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 11: which does need to be rewritten, is because it deals 405 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 11: with anything dealing with national defense, which he had the 406 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 11: documents for. 407 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: Sounds to me, John like it would be whove the 408 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 2: Special Council to say something about Joe Biden's case is 409 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: as soon as possible, or at least the Special Council 410 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: investigating the Joe Biden case here with regard to the 411 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 2: documents and the garage and the corvette, as long as 412 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: that's hanging out there, there's going to be a big 413 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 2: question over this. 414 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 4: Oh, certainly, and the Trump campaign will exploit that, and 415 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 4: so will Trump supporters, And I think to Genie's point, 416 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 4: there is going to be a very important emphasis on 417 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 4: the legal aspects here, because ultimately, we aspire to be 418 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 4: a country that is ruled by laws, and it's going 419 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 4: to be up to the prosecutor to be able to 420 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 4: demonstrate that. This argument about the Presidential Records Actor is 421 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 4: going to be a very important one because there's the 422 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 4: Clinton sock drawer ruling from twenty twelve, which I think 423 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: we're going to be hearing more about in the days 424 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 4: and weeks ahead. Sandy, we're a federal judge essentially proclaimed 425 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 4: that presidents have unconstrained authority when it comes to disposal 426 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 4: of documents, and lawyers, by their nature, interpret laws, they 427 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 4: debate laws, they disagree, and so we'll have the prosecutor, 428 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 4: we'll have the defense attorney. Nothing is set in stone, 429 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 4: and this will be a riveting political drama for quite 430 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: some time. 431 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 2: I want to ask you guys about security tomorrow here, Genie, 432 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: this is a somewhat concerning situation, certainly if you're a 433 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 2: law enforcement in Miami, or if you're a part of 434 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: the federal law enforcement guarding the courthouse here. The former 435 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: president went on Roger Stone's new radio show on a 436 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: station in New York City. He says, quote, we need 437 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: strength in our country. 438 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: Now. 439 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 2: They have to go out. They have to protest peacefully. 440 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: They have to go out. Our country has to protest. 441 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 2: We have plenty of protests to protest. We have lost everything. Unquote, 442 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: he did say peacefully. It's important to note here, but 443 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 2: the last time the president called for a gathering, you know, 444 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: at an event like that, it just brings a lot 445 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: of people back to January sixth. How concerned should we 446 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: be about tomorrow? 447 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 11: It's very concerning, and you know, his comments stunning lyon 448 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 11: Roger Stone were far sort of apocalyptic than they were 449 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 11: when he was on the campaign trail over the weekend, 450 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 11: when he was using language like final battle and you 451 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 11: know this is the final battle, he said at one point, 452 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 11: and corrupt forces destroying the country. So he is right. 453 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 11: Every American has a right to peacefully protest, and hopefully, 454 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 11: and I'm sure the courthouse and the officials around there 455 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 11: are ready for that. But to your point, this brings 456 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 11: back the language he used just prior to January sixth. Now, 457 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 11: I was in New York for the New York City 458 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 11: indictment and there was very little protest, in fact, so little. 459 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 11: When Marjorie Taylor Green came, she had to just leave 460 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 11: the park. 461 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 2: It was a media convention, it was. So here's this 462 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: brings me to the comments from Kerry Lake over the weekend. John, 463 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: you probably heard this. This is, of course, the losing 464 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: candidate for the Republican a race for governor in Arizona 465 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: has become a big Trump ally claiming her election was launch. 466 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 12: I had a. 467 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 13: Message tonight from Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden, 468 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 13: and the guy's back. 469 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 12: There in the fake news media. 470 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 13: You should listen up as well, this was for you, 471 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 13: for all of us. 472 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 6: If you want to get to President's twelfth and you're 473 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 6: gonna have to go through me, and you're gonna have 474 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 6: to go through seventy five million Americans just like her. 475 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 2: Okay, big round of applause there, and I'm gonna tell them, 476 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: you know, yeah, more than that, most of us. 477 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 6: Are card carrying members of the NRA. 478 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: Hollow a big old round of applause, And she said further, John, 479 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 2: she said, that's not a threat, that's a public service announcement. 480 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: What do you do with a statement like that. 481 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 4: Probably just marginalize it. She does not speak for seventy 482 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 4: five million voters, and so I would not give much 483 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 4: credence to anything that she is saying right now. Again, 484 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 4: the emphasis really has to be on the genuine rule 485 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 4: of law in this country. The legal process will play 486 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 4: itself out. If people choose to protest of their own 487 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 4: volition and they do so peacefully, that's wonderful. That's what 488 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 4: this country's about. Sure, But I don't think any one 489 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 4: particular person represents that many people except for Trump himself. 490 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 4: And he'll make those statements, trust me, as he already 491 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 4: has begun. 492 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 2: Great talk with John Sidalides and Genie Shanzano. 493 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us 494 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the 495 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on 496 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. 497 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: The counter offensive appears to be underway in Ukraine. Secretary 498 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: of State Anthony Blincoln talking about that at a news 499 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: conference following a meeting with Italy's for administer. Blincoln says, well, 500 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: US intelligence meantime has found no evidence that Beijing is 501 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: supplying Russia with lethal aid. Remember when that was the 502 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: biggest story in Washington, He says, they are still watching today. 503 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 4: We've not seen that line acrossed. At the same time, 504 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 4: we have concerns about private companies. 505 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: And he's preparing to head to China reportedly later on 506 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: this week, joining us to put all of these storylines together. 507 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: As Nick Wadams, I'm glad to say, Bloomberg National Security reporter, 508 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: it's good to see you here. 509 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: Nick. 510 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: We've been talking about this so called Spring offensive for 511 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: so long. It's not spring anymore. This counter offensive, though 512 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 2: this is an incredibly important moment, appears to have arrived. 513 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 14: Yeah, we are here. That's a big question about what 514 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 14: happens now. So it looks like Ukraine has successfully taken 515 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 14: some towns back that Russia had seized in the beginning 516 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 14: of the invasion more than a year ago, but so 517 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 14: far we have not seen the sort of sweeping gains 518 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 14: I think that a lot of people had hoped for. 519 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 14: And the question is, Okay, what happens now. Is this 520 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 14: just as some US officials are telling us sort of 521 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 14: the tentative probing that leads to a bigger count offensive 522 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 14: where you really see Ukraine start to take back massive 523 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 14: chunks of territory from Russia, or are we going to 524 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 14: see something where every inch they get is hard fought, 525 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 14: It's costly in terms of lives and material, and the 526 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 14: fundamental equation of the battlefield doesn't really change. 527 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 2: So it makes Anthony B. Lincoln's trip, assuming this actually 528 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: happens to Beijing, all the more important. The stakes are 529 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: awfully high. If he's flying away later this week. 530 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 14: The stakes are high. You know, China is trying to 531 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 14: play this role as a mediator in the Russia situation, 532 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 14: but you know B. Lincoln has a plate that is 533 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 14: very full setting aside Ukraine anyway, because the US China 534 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 14: relationship is so up and down. He's really trying to 535 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 14: put that relationship back on a track where you could 536 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 14: get a Biden she meeting where you just have the 537 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 14: leaders of the world's two biggest economies just having a 538 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 14: normal conversation and settling into some sort of sense of 539 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 14: deton Right now, it's just every other day there seems 540 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 14: to be something new, whether it's new sanctions or an 541 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 14: encounter in the South China Sea, or a war of 542 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 14: words or whatever whatever it may be. 543 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 2: Does this precipitate a meeting between the two leaders here 544 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: or is that a long way off? 545 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 14: If that happens, well, it's always hard to tell. I mean, 546 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 14: we know that Joe Biden wants that meeting. He obviously 547 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 14: puts a lot of stock in face to face communication. 548 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 14: He thinks, listen, if I can get in the room 549 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 14: with chijin Ping, we can make some progress and get somewhere. China, 550 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 14: so far, as far as we know, has really resisted 551 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 14: that they want concrete deliverables. They also don't want to 552 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 14: be embarrassed, you know. Okay, you do a meeting and 553 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 14: then the next day the US imposes new export controls 554 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 14: on some Chinese company or you know, they're not allowed 555 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 14: to buy US microchips, so you know that makes Chi 556 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 14: Jinping look weak. So that's the tension there. The US 557 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 14: is really pushing for that. So far China has balked. 558 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: Well, Nick, thank you for coming in. Nick Wadams, Bloomberg 559 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: National Security reporter teeing up our panel here. Genie Schanzano 560 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: is with us again along with John Sidaliiti's as we 561 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: navigate a couple of different topics today, John, considering your 562 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: experience at the State Department here and your view of 563 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: what's happening in Ukraine, how important is it for Ukraine 564 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: to make strides in this immediate term here in this 565 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: counter offensive, if I can call it that, I guess 566 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: I'm asking how many tries does it get while still 567 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: maintaining the confidence of its supporters. 568 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,959 Speaker 4: You're going to be difficult to determine whether or not 569 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 4: there's a political objective here, a military objective or both, 570 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 4: because on the military front, Ukraine is in a very 571 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 4: difficult situation here, Joe. The Ukrainian forces have been receiving 572 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 4: US intelligence and training in countries in Poland and Germany 573 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 4: and elsewhere in Europe. But the Ukrainian forces still lack 574 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 4: air power, they lack long range artillery, Their forces are 575 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 4: completely exposed to Russian air superiority, overwhelming firepower. And remember 576 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 4: Russia has the equivalent of a CIA and a National 577 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 4: Secure Purity Agency. They know everything that's happening on the 578 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 4: ground in Ukraine. They just sort of way the Ukrainian 579 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 4: forces will be striking. So we're dealing with a war 580 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 4: of attrition that, unfortunately but likely grind on for probably 581 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 4: at least many more months. And the Russians have spent 582 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 4: the last six months building out a very deep, dug 583 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 4: in defense strategy ten to twelve miles across, and the 584 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 4: Ukrainian forces will be encountering minefields, trip wires, dragon teeth. 585 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 4: And then the question is if they don't make significant progress, 586 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 4: does Russia then attack a very vulnerable Ukrainian military later 587 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 4: this year or early in twenty twenty four. So I 588 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 4: think we're going to be entering a very difficult period here. 589 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 4: But I think the Ukrainian political entities have to demonstrate 590 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 4: to Washington and especially to the NATO countries that it's 591 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 4: worth continuing supporting Ukraine. I just don't know if they'll 592 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 4: be able to accomplish their mission. 593 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: Wow. 594 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: And this against the backdrop of members of the Freedom 595 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: cap just wanting to shut down the House Genie over 596 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: this last debt ceiling of debate. They have shut down 597 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: the House. We're coming into this week without a real 598 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: path forward. I guess there will be a rules vote 599 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 2: later on today or will there be, But if the 600 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: idea is this is going to go on from months more, 601 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: maybe in the next year, we need supplemental funding. This 602 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: is all hitting at a very awkward time, it is. 603 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 11: And you mentioned in the US Congress. Certainly the House 604 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 11: has sort of ground to a halt at this point, 605 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 11: and you know, but you're even hearing whispers of this 606 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 11: in European capitals. And the question, I think is what 607 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 11: does progress look like when this offensive has gone on 608 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 11: for a few months. What does Ukraine have to show 609 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 11: have to do on the ground in order to keep 610 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 11: up the support or to better yet, stop the pressure 611 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 11: for cease fire talks from coming from European capitals, NATO allies, 612 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 11: the US Congress, Republicans, liberals and Democrats and others. That's 613 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 11: a big, big question. And of course, you know, the 614 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 11: reality is is that when we look at what's very 615 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 11: striking about this offensive. In my mind, it is a 616 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 11: you know, when what has been a very public war 617 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 11: up to this point has been almost you know, no 618 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 11: visibility on what this offensive is going to look like 619 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 11: and how it's going to play itself out, which you know, 620 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 11: also makes it difficult to maintain Allied support. So they 621 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 11: have it at this point, but as the months drag 622 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 11: on we get into the winter, how much can they 623 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 11: keep that is a big question Without that Allied support, 624 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 11: very difficult for Ukraine to win a war of attrition 625 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 11: because population and artillery are a big problem for them 626 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 11: visa v. Russia. 627 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 2: Which brings us back to this meeting in Beijing, and 628 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 2: I do wonder to what extent the Secretary of State, 629 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: if at all we'll be talking about peace with China, 630 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: because I don't think we see them as a credible 631 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: actor in that space. A lot more to talk about there. We'll, 632 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: of course let you know when details emerge. We're still 633 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: waiting for that blink and trip to be confirmed and 634 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: for details to be released. A lot more ahead with 635 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: our pan and some final thoughts, I should say, you know, 636 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: what was thirty six years ago today, President Reagan delivered 637 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: the tear down this Wall speech. What can we learn 638 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 2: from that moment? We'll talk to Genie and John straight ahead. 639 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: I'm the fastest show in politics. I'm Joe Matthew. This 640 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: is Bloomberg. 641 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the 642 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 643 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. 644 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 645 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 646 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: I found Katie Lines, and that means we have a 647 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 2: forum here for hour two of Sound On with the 648 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: big story of course in the air. And I'm talking 649 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 2: to someone now in as I look at Katie Ones 650 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: News got a suitcase in the studio. 651 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 15: Yes I do. I'm running out the door shortly. 652 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 2: One of many people flying from the nation's capital today 653 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 2: to Miami where it's all going to go down tomorrow. 654 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: Although we're told that we might not even see him. 655 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: Of course it's federal court. They don't have photographs. 656 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 5: More. 657 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 2: We had that image of him in New York when 658 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: he kind of walk through scowling, not even in the 659 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 2: court room. But we won't get any of that tomorrow. 660 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 15: Likely not because the Miami Federal Courthouse has an underground 661 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 15: entrance there you go, so for security reasons, given this 662 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 15: as a former president of the United States we're talking 663 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 15: about it, it's very likely that we won't actually see 664 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 15: him outside walk in through the lobby, that he will 665 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 15: enter from underground, and those proceedings of the arrangement will 666 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 15: take place behind closed doors where we won't necessarily see 667 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 15: any any images of him. And yet I'm still going 668 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 15: to go down there anyway, because it is still a 669 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 15: day that will go down in history. 670 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: Job well, it certainly will, because it's never happened before. 671 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 3: In this whole fake indictment, they don't even once mention 672 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,959 Speaker 3: the Presidential Records Act, which is really the ruling Act, 673 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 3: which this case falls under one hundred percent, because they 674 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 3: want to use something called the Espionage Act. 675 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: Doesn't that sound terrible? 676 00:34:58,600 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 9: Oh, espionage? 677 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 6: We got a box. 678 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: I box in a box. You have a box. I 679 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 2: have a box. 680 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 15: It was more than one box. 681 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 2: Only one person going to Miami for the box. Of course, 682 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 2: there were a lot of boxes, and the images from 683 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: the bathroom with the shower and the chandelier, and all 684 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 2: that continued to be shared widely here. I wonder where 685 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 2: Mick mulvaney is on all of this. We actually spoke 686 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 2: with Nick about the matter of documents and whether he 687 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 2: had destroyed them in the past. Mick was, of course 688 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 2: in the room when he was acting chief of staff 689 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: and saw exactly what Donald Trump's behaviors were with this 690 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: type of stuff. And he's with us right now as 691 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: we talk each week at this time. Mick mulvaney, welcome back. 692 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 2: Is this the indictment that you expected to see? Because 693 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 2: the president says he just had a couple of boxes 694 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: and there's nothing to see here. 695 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've seen the picture of a couple of boxes. Yes, yeah, good, 696 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 5: that's gracious. Where to start with all of this. I 697 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 5: hope that that comment he just made it. I've heard 698 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 5: that several times about that did a Presidential Records Act. 699 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 5: I hope that's bluster and not actually what he's hearing 700 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 5: from his lawyers, because if that's what his lawyers are 701 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 5: telling him, he needs to do. Lawyers, they've got him 702 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 5: on obstruction. That's that's what this is really all about. 703 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 5: And I've told in this when I was in office. 704 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 5: I've told him this publicly, when I was out of office, 705 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 5: I've said it on the news. How often have we seen, 706 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 5: you know, throughout our political history, throughout business history. It's 707 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 5: really not the crime, right, it's the cover up that 708 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 5: gets people in trouble. Watergate was not about the break in. 709 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 5: It was about the cover up of the break in. 710 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 5: And you can go, you know, example after example of 711 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 5: things like that. This is not really a public a 712 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 5: Presidential Records Act case. It's about the allegations that he 713 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 5: hid stuff after he should have given it back. You know, 714 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 5: I think another part of the In one of his 715 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 5: public exchanges recently, he said, you know, they treated me 716 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 5: differently than Joe Biden and Mike Pass No than not 717 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 5: Joe Biden, Mike Pence. Gave the stuff back. That's that's 718 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 5: what's causing this. This is not about taking it. If 719 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 5: he just took it and give it back, he would 720 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 5: not be having this conversation. 721 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 15: Well, Mick, you're right to point out that the president 722 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 15: needs new lawyers. He actually does need new lawyers. Two 723 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,479 Speaker 15: of them resigned last week, and I believe he's still 724 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 15: on the hunt for people to represent him as this 725 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 15: case gets underway. But you talk about how there is 726 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 15: a distinction to be made here between form President Trump's 727 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 15: handling of the documents and former Vice President Mike penceon 728 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 15: current President Joe Biden. And yet when you look at 729 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 15: the polling of likely GOP primary voters, seventy six percent 730 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 15: of them, according to the Cbsugov poll that came out yesterday, 731 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 15: said that what concerns them more is that the indictment 732 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 15: was politically motivated. Only twelve percent said the documents were 733 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 15: a national security risk. So it seems like the messaging 734 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 15: of you know, this is a win, which hunt this 735 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 15: is all political, actually is resonating with the base. 736 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 5: Well, we talked about its Taylee a couple weeks back 737 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 5: when he got charged in that hat on the Stormy 738 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 5: Daniels hush money payments, that was so weak and that 739 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 5: prosecution was so overtly political that it was going to 740 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 5: undermine the credit bbiliity of anything else that came afterwards. 741 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 5: And that's exactly what's happened. That Manhattan case was really 742 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 5: a political gift to Donald Trump that will continue to 743 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 5: give and repin benefits for a long time. Regarding national security, 744 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 5: I think it's really I still think that's an open question. 745 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 5: Keeping in mind one of the things here that you 746 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 5: sort of have to look at this in two different realms. 747 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 5: There's the legal, sort of objective realm like Bill Barr 748 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 5: was talking about on TV over the weekend, and then 749 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 5: there's the political subjective. And the place that sort of 750 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 5: diverges is what is there really any harm here? He 751 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 5: took this stuff right, he did. There's no question he 752 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 5: kept this stuff. There's really there's no question. Okay, so 753 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 5: the legal case seems very strong, but when you get 754 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 5: to the politics of it, I think it's fair to ask, 755 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 5: are we really going to charge with former president United 756 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 5: States for a technical violation of the law? I get 757 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 5: the rule of law. I even believe me. Republicans are 758 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 5: supposed to be the party of the rule of law. 759 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 5: But right now, the only indications we are that actually 760 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 5: did anything of this was that on two different occasions 761 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 5: he showed some documents to some staffers. There's no indication 762 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 5: yet that he gave this to a foreign power. There's 763 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 5: no indication he showed to foreign leaders or foreign intelligence services. 764 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 5: There's no indication that he sold it or got some 765 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 5: benefit out of having these things. And I get the 766 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 5: fact that there's a violation of law, but are we 767 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 5: really going to charge a president with a violation that 768 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,879 Speaker 5: didn't really hurt the country. And I think that's why 769 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 5: you're seeing the political sort of backlash to this. 770 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 2: And the political backlash is to compare it, to go 771 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: back and compare it to Mike Pence and Joe Biden 772 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 2: were in many cases Hillary Clinton from what we heard 773 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 2: over the course of the weekend, then make politically it 774 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: sounds like that's smart. If people can't tell these cases 775 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,959 Speaker 2: apart and they're tainted from what happened by the Manhattan DA, 776 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 2: then just keep driving home these points. By the time 777 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 2: it goes to trial, his base will think he did 778 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 2: nothing wrong. 779 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 5: Well, it's you know, I watch I do a good 780 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 5: bit of media. You guys know that, and I to 781 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 5: watch a bunch of different channels, and there's folks all 782 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,479 Speaker 5: across the television is on that who don't understand why 783 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 5: he's still politically viable. It's like they almost refuse to 784 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 5: accept the possibility that this could be political, or at 785 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 5: least that there has been political targeting of Donald Trump 786 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 5: in the past. I think Bill mar put it best. 787 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 5: It's like, clearly Trump has been politically targeted in the past, 788 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 5: and Bills has has defended him in those circumstances. Bill 789 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 5: doesn't think this is politically targeted. I don't know. I mean, 790 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 5: there's no shortage of former Department of Justice people on 791 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 5: television telling us that Donald Trump is a threat to 792 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 5: the democracy, Okay, And you got to wonder if there's 793 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 5: folks inside the Department of Justice now who still think that, 794 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 5: and you know, would arguably would argue that the ends 795 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 5: justified the means. They got him on a technical violation. 796 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 5: They got getting on a technical violation, and the politics 797 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 5: of it sort of be darned. Again. I don't know, 798 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 5: we'll know much more about the facts of the case, 799 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 5: but if they don't have anything on damages, and I 800 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 5: know that that's not really what applies in the criminal case, 801 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 5: but if the country hasn't been hurt here, they might 802 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 5: actually have a really hard time convict because he is 803 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 5: a former president. 804 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 12: I say, well, as we talk. 805 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 15: About threats threats to democracy, I also wonder about threats 806 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,919 Speaker 15: of actual violence. We know that former President Trump told 807 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 15: all of his followers on true Social he'll see them 808 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 15: in Miami on Tuesday. He said he would like them 809 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 15: to come out and peacefully protest. And yet we have 810 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 15: seen you in some of these online forums indications that 811 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 15: people aren't necessarily thinking peacefully about this. And even Carrie Lake, 812 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 15: a relatively prominent Republican from Arizona, had some very strong 813 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 15: words over the weekend. Take a listen to this. 814 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 13: I have a message tonight from Merrick Garland and Jack 815 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 13: Smith and Joe Biden and the guy's back there in 816 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 13: the fake news media. 817 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 6: You should listen up as well. 818 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 5: This was for you. 819 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,959 Speaker 6: If you want to get to President twelve, you're gonna 820 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 6: have to go through me, and you're gonna have to 821 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 6: go through seventy five million Americans just like me. And 822 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 6: I'm gonna tell yeah, most of us are card carrying 823 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 6: members of the NRA. 824 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 15: So Nick, this rhetoric feels dangerous. Obviously, we are all 825 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 15: semi scarred from what we saw take place at the 826 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 15: Capitol on January sixth. Is this just again incitement of 827 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 15: violence on behalf of the former president? 828 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 5: A couple of different things in this. First of all, 829 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 5: it's Kerried Lake, which I'm not sure anybody takes seriously. 830 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 5: If they do, they should probably have their head examined. 831 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 5: But you're right that the rhetoric is certainly not helpful. 832 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 5: That being said, you're correct to reference January sixth, because 833 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 5: there's people sitting in jail, that several folks are going 834 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 5: to be there for a really, really long time because 835 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 5: they did this already one time. You know, they showed 836 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 5: up in Washington. They answered the president's call and they 837 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 5: showed up and they protested it, and now they're sitting 838 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 5: in jail. So my guess is that, yeah, you might 839 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 5: have some folks show up down there, but you're not 840 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 5: going to see anything widespread because people realize that they 841 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 5: can get in real, real trouble and that Donald Trump 842 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 5: doesn't have their back. He's not going to pay for 843 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 5: their legal defense. He's not going to help them. He's 844 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 5: going to ask them to show up to help him, 845 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,399 Speaker 5: but he's not going to be able to defend them 846 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 5: and any fashion or help them. I don't think you're 847 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 5: going to see any widespread violence here, But you're right, 848 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 5: the rhetoric is not helpful. My guess is that was 849 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 5: a fundraiser for Carey Lake, and that's that's the political 850 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 5: world we live in these days, unfortunately. But I'm not 851 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 5: too concerned. And maybe I'm pollyannish about this, but I'm 852 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 5: not too concerned about wholesale civil unrest at this point. 853 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 2: I just, you know, I worry less about Miami tomorrow because, 854 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,359 Speaker 2: my goodness, the law enforcement will be over the top. 855 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 2: I mean, Kaylee Lines is going to be there, the 856 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 2: half of the half of the news media though, Joe, 857 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 2: you know, but but you don't want to cross Kayley, 858 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 2: I guess, is my point. I just worry about the 859 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 2: lone wolf. Was listening to this stuff in various corners 860 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 2: of the country, and we've seen this play out already, 861 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,800 Speaker 2: whether it's you know, a single guy in a vehicle 862 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 2: bashing into the barricades the US capital. We're somewhere far 863 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 2: from Washington when they're hearing this call, if we can 864 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 2: call it that from the president but also his supporters. 865 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 2: This is when things get dangerous. The police can't watch everybody. 866 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 5: They can't and of course the rhetoric does make it worse, 867 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,839 Speaker 5: but the rheticas are the only thing driving that there's 868 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 5: going to be mentally people on all sides of the spectrum. 869 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 5: I mean, we've got the congressional baseball game here Wednesday night. 870 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 5: Republicans versus Democrats, and it reminds everybody of that nut 871 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 5: job who opened fire on the Republicans at their practice 872 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 5: a couple of years back. So listen to the political 873 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 5: rhetic on both sides is wrong. Certainly Carry Lakes is 874 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:42,320 Speaker 5: taking it to a new low, but your concern is correct. 875 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 5: It's a dangerous world we live in. I'm not again, 876 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 5: I would be more concerned about organized type of efforts 877 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 5: towards violence than the lone wolf, because you really can't. 878 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 5: It's hard to protect against that on a good day, 879 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 5: let alone. You know today, and of course all of. 880 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 15: The talk and considerations of what could go down in 881 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 15: Miami tomorrow, what the wider implications are for twenty twenty four, 882 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 15: whether or not this is a politically driven witch hunt 883 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 15: or maybe distracting from the regular business of government here 884 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 15: in Washington, although I'm not sure how regular business has 885 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 15: been in the capital, at least in the House over 886 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 15: the course of the last week. Make we know that 887 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 15: Speaker McCarthy had to send everyone home early. There's just 888 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 15: a few specific Republican hardliners that are holding things up 889 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 15: in the House. How hard of an issue is this 890 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 15: for Speaker McCarthy to resolve? Considering the problem is action 891 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,839 Speaker 15: that he already has taken a bill that has pen 892 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 15: passed and signed that he can't take back. 893 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, look, we know, we know what was going to 894 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 5: be hard. We knew it was going to be hard. 895 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 5: With the margin of five of five votes in the House, 896 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 5: I guess if I was Kevin, i'd be pointing out 897 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 5: to people that there is another bill coming up. It 898 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 5: is the spending bill for the year, and that's a 899 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 5: real bill that actually spends money. You say what you 900 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 5: want about the debt ceiling. I happened to thought, you know, 901 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 5: it was okay. I'm sure it was a great deal. 902 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 5: But again, I'm a conservative, right wing fit go hot 903 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 5: nut job, so I'm probably not the right person to ask. 904 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 5: But the spending bill is real, and if if Kevin 905 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 5: can can can satisfy people that he's serious about spending 906 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,319 Speaker 5: on the spending bill, I think he'll be fine. But 907 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 5: it was never going to be easy. He knew it 908 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 5: wasn't going to be easy. But I keep coming back 909 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 5: every time somebody asked me, well, it's Kevin's job safe. 910 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 5: My first question is who would want the job, Who 911 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 5: seriously would take the job. Right now? If any five 912 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 5: members of the House can can take it away from 913 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,320 Speaker 5: you after you have it. Who would want it? Steps 914 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 5: Gleeze is going to want this job. Patrick Henry's going 915 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 5: to want this job. But Keing Jeffers would want this job. Yeah, 916 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 5: I mean you can't and the House can't function without speaker, 917 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 5: so you have to have one. So show me who's 918 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,399 Speaker 5: going to do a better job. The last thing I'll 919 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 5: say on this is, I'm glad you did not mention 920 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 5: the words House Freedom Caucus. This is not a House 921 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 5: Freedom Caucus. Uprising. Scott Perry, the President is not part 922 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:54,839 Speaker 5: of this. Jim George, one of the founder's, good friend 923 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 5: of mine, is not part of this. This is a 924 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 5: rump group mostly of folks who haven't been there very long, 925 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 5: to be honest with it. So it's it's it's the 926 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 5: dynamics of Washington, d C. Would it be the same 927 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 5: with the Democrats word charge? Maybe who knows, but they'll 928 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 5: get through it they always do. 929 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,359 Speaker 2: Self described fiscal hawk nut job Mick mulvaney with us 930 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 2: here on Bloomberg Radio. Mick, just a minute left, then, 931 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 2: how how bumpy is the appropriations process going to be? 932 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: That? 933 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 2: I thought we were all embracing regular order. Here, is 934 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 2: the government gonna shut down when it comes time to 935 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 2: write a budget. 936 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 5: My short answer about one hundred. I'm at ninety nine 937 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 5: point four percent likelihood on some type of government shutdown. 938 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, look at that. 939 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 5: Just yeah. I mean, it's good, it's gonna happen to 940 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 5: be And by the way, I would defend that. I'd 941 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 5: rather have the fight over spending because I know what 942 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:44,800 Speaker 5: a shutdown looks like. I don't want to have to 943 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 5: fight necessarily over the debt ceiling as much because I 944 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,880 Speaker 5: don't know what happens if we if we get you know, 945 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 5: if we if we reach the debt ceiling, if we 946 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 5: get to that point, I think I know what happens. 947 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 5: But we've never done that before. We know what shutdowns are. 948 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 5: It's not the end of the world. It's probably the 949 00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 5: better place to have the. 950 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 2: Battle's from Mick mulvaney. Great conversation, Mix, Stay safe tomorrow 951 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 2: wherever you are. Former Acting Chief of Staff the White House, 952 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 2: former O and B director, co founder of the Freedom Caucus. 953 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 2: Fascinating conversation, Kaylee. With another one to come. We're going 954 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 2: to dig into this house discord a little bit more. 955 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 2: Next this is Bloomberg. 956 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the 957 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,840 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 958 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. 959 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 960 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:49,720 Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 961 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 2: With Business at a standstill in the US House, at 962 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,839 Speaker 2: least for now, following the upwising last week. Remember when 963 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 2: Chip Roy said there would be a reckoning in the 964 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 2: Republican conference. Kayleie lines, Yes, I'm assuming this is what 965 00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 2: he was talking about. 966 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,919 Speaker 15: Yeah, a little bit of foreshadowing there on the part 967 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 15: of the congressman, I think, considering they've successfully disrupted the 968 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 15: proceedings of the House of Representatives. 969 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 2: Well that's for sure. We don't know exactly when this 970 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 2: is going to end. And this is life when you 971 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,839 Speaker 2: have a very thin majority. Apparently Mick mulvaney was making 972 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,719 Speaker 2: the point there a minute ago. Interesting he went out 973 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:20,760 Speaker 2: of his way, as the co founder of the Freedom 974 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 2: Caucus to say it's not the Freedom Caucus to blame, ye, 975 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 2: just a group of individuals, all of whom are in 976 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 2: the Freedom Caucus. Correct, it's the same eleven lawmakers who 977 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,239 Speaker 2: stood in front of the House that day. Chip Roy 978 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,439 Speaker 2: talked about the reckoning. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who sent 979 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 2: everyone home early last week, seems to be enjoying this. 980 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 5: I like the challenge, and you know what, I've got 981 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:44,120 Speaker 5: a challenge. 982 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 7: I knew from day one with a small majority. 983 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:47,920 Speaker 2: Do we believe that. 984 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,560 Speaker 15: I mean, maybe he does like a challenge, but that 985 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,719 Speaker 15: doesn't mean that, yeah. 986 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 2: You're preferred no work in the House. Yeah. He was 987 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 2: talking to reporters when he said that Bill Holgan is 988 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,359 Speaker 2: going to join us to figure it out. Bill helped 989 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,759 Speaker 2: us solve the debt ceiling crisis. He put all the 990 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 2: terms on the table that were then accepted, and now 991 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:10,799 Speaker 2: he'll help us get back to work here as well. 992 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: The senior vice. 993 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,240 Speaker 2: President of the Bipartisan Policy Center, a former Senate staffer, 994 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 2: are you chuckling Bill about what's happening in the lower chamber? 995 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 12: Chuckling? Yes, I'm chuckling a little bit. But I think 996 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 12: this was to be anticipated a very small majority. I'm 997 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 12: a little surprised that mister the Speaker says he enjoys this. 998 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 12: I can't believe he enjoys this. His responsibility is to 999 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 12: move legislation, and small majority of stopping it is not 1000 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 12: does not ode well for some of the major issues. 1001 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 12: I'm like, you know, this all started over gas stows, 1002 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,799 Speaker 12: so to speaking, put it on the back burner. Job, 1003 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,400 Speaker 12: that's nice, that's not the issue. That's not the issue. 1004 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 15: Well, but Bill, you make a good point that what 1005 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,759 Speaker 15: they disrupted was Republican messaging bills. So if they don't 1006 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 15: even pass their own legislation that Republicans would like to 1007 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 15: see past, this can't bode well for actually, you know, 1008 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 15: important bills like appropriations in the legislative agenda. 1009 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,360 Speaker 12: You're absolutely right, Heelia. I guess I'm paid to worry. 1010 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,919 Speaker 12: I'm a budgeteer. I worry about these things a lot, 1011 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 12: and I'm really concerned about when it gets down to 1012 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 12: some serious issues come this fall. You just mentioned the 1013 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 12: big one here is the appropriate we have we agreed 1014 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,799 Speaker 12: to spending caps. I'm not sure that we're going to 1015 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 12: be able to move the appropriation bills, and that vote 1016 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,760 Speaker 12: does not bode well for this fall of potential government 1017 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 12: shut down. There are consequences, as you know in the agreement, 1018 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,840 Speaker 12: as if we don't get our bills done by the 1019 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 12: end of December. That there's a one percent cut that 1020 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,240 Speaker 12: is going to not work out. It's going to result 1021 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,439 Speaker 12: in defense spending being less than the cap and interestingly enough, 1022 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,480 Speaker 12: non defense spending greater than the cap. So this is 1023 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,279 Speaker 12: going to this is going to come down. And it's 1024 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 12: not just appropriations. We got a major farm bill coming up. 1025 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,280 Speaker 12: We've got national defense reauthorizations. 1026 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 1: That's right. 1027 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,279 Speaker 12: I'm I just hope that this is resolved by the 1028 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,880 Speaker 12: time we get to the serious legislation has to be 1029 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:18,200 Speaker 12: done this. 1030 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,800 Speaker 2: You just pointed out two big ones there, Bill Defense reauthorization, 1031 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,359 Speaker 2: the farm bill that no one is talking about. That's, 1032 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 2: by the way, Uh, if you're if you're not familiar, 1033 00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,160 Speaker 2: that's the food stamps that we were talking about work 1034 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,799 Speaker 2: requirements for throughout that entire debt deal. That's the farm bill, 1035 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:35,760 Speaker 2: and we're going to have to get to that as well. 1036 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 12: Uh. 1037 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,680 Speaker 2: Bill Nick mulvany a minute ago was just laying out 1038 00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 2: the vision of a government shutdown here. I'm sure we'll 1039 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,480 Speaker 2: get beyond this, but but the the foreshadowing that we're 1040 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 2: seeing now in the appropriations process your specialty is troubling. 1041 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 12: Well, Uh, listen, nobody I just I say this or 1042 00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 12: with that, with that, with some chagrin. I don't worry 1043 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,360 Speaker 12: as much about a government shutdown as I do a 1044 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:04,320 Speaker 12: government default. 1045 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 2: Well, a good thing, we got beyond that. 1046 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,920 Speaker 12: Then they were, yes, it's important to got beyond that. 1047 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 12: But even in a government shutdown one year out from 1048 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:18,000 Speaker 12: a presidential and congressional elections is not This never works, 1049 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,240 Speaker 12: never works out. Both sides are blamed. So I'm really 1050 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 12: nervous about this fall and particularly this very small majority 1051 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,240 Speaker 12: and mister McCarthy bring him around to move forward. They didn't. 1052 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,560 Speaker 12: If they didn't like the agreement, particularly on the defense 1053 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,839 Speaker 12: was too low and non defense wasn't cut enough, they 1054 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 12: could really disrupt our ability to get legis get appropriation center, 1055 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,280 Speaker 12: and that could set up at least a government shutdown 1056 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 12: in October. So I hope it doesn't happen, but it's 1057 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,239 Speaker 12: certainly is something we need to start thinking about. 1058 00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:53,359 Speaker 5: Here. 1059 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,000 Speaker 2: You're gonna want to just write it on your calendar, 1060 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:56,879 Speaker 2: you're take that week off. 1061 00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 15: Yeah. Well, and Bill, as we talk about know, they 1062 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,200 Speaker 15: clearly are very angry for something the Speaker already has 1063 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 15: done and can't change. It's now law. The dead ceiling 1064 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,240 Speaker 15: has been raised the deal is made. Do you foresee 1065 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 15: a scenario where Speaker McCarthy, if not forced out, would 1066 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,239 Speaker 15: just need to give up the gavel in order for 1067 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,680 Speaker 15: the government to be allowed to move forward. 1068 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,879 Speaker 12: I do not see that, Keeley today. H A lot, 1069 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,040 Speaker 12: A lot can happen between now and in the first 1070 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,319 Speaker 12: of October. I guess the question I always have is 1071 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,960 Speaker 12: who's who? Who would be replace him? Who would be 1072 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,840 Speaker 12: who would move into that position with the Scalise I 1073 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:37,719 Speaker 12: don't I don't know. 1074 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:38,560 Speaker 5: Uh. 1075 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:40,520 Speaker 12: There seems to be a little bit of a rift 1076 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 12: there between McCarthy and Scalise. I'm not a house person, 1077 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:48,919 Speaker 12: so I should stop talking about But but no, right 1078 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:53,799 Speaker 12: now I think McCarthy's safe. Uh and uh and uh. 1079 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:58,279 Speaker 12: But a lot could happen, as I say, we we saw, 1080 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 12: we thought we had everything on track last week, and 1081 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:06,399 Speaker 12: of course it turned out that reaching a high. Now 1082 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,600 Speaker 12: he's reaching a low I think in terms of visibility 1083 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,040 Speaker 12: to manage the house right now. And it could change, 1084 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,359 Speaker 12: it could change, But right now it's kind of a 1085 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 12: tough period. They were supposed to In fact, I'm they 1086 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 12: were supposed to be insatian right now, and I see 1087 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,319 Speaker 12: that they're kind of holding off being insatian until later 1088 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,479 Speaker 12: this evening, and there's some boats this evening. We'll see 1089 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,840 Speaker 12: what happens this evening if this rift is resolved. 1090 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, we shall. It looks like it's going to take 1091 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,399 Speaker 2: a couple of more hours here. When you step back 1092 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,719 Speaker 2: and look at the landscape that Speaker McCarthy is dealing with, 1093 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,879 Speaker 2: then Bill, does this make it a world in which 1094 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,839 Speaker 2: he's more reliant upon democratic cooperation or does he need 1095 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,280 Speaker 2: to fix this with the Freedom Caucus because he needs them. 1096 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:54,600 Speaker 12: Well, that's an excellent question, Joe, from my perspective. As 1097 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 12: you know, the legislation that passed really did depend upon 1098 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,359 Speaker 12: Democrats both in the House and in the Senate. If 1099 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,480 Speaker 12: he goes too far to appease this small band of 1100 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,680 Speaker 12: a Freedom Caucus, he's likely to lose any support on 1101 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,279 Speaker 12: the other side of the moderate Democrats, in which case 1102 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,879 Speaker 12: then nothing happens. So it's a balancing act he's got 1103 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,920 Speaker 12: to figure out. But he does. They are members of 1104 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,000 Speaker 12: his party, so he's going to have to work with 1105 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,640 Speaker 12: them to figure out what it is they want and 1106 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 12: appease them in whatever way he can. Otherwise we're going 1107 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 12: to continue to have this stalemate, right there in the 1108 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 12: House of Representatives, Bill, how. 1109 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,279 Speaker 15: Are you thinking about the issue of Ukraine and the 1110 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,080 Speaker 15: supplemental that Speaker McCarthy seems very against, and yet the 1111 00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,440 Speaker 15: Senate has indicated they'd like to push for. 1112 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,600 Speaker 12: Well, this is another one which I think, by the way, 1113 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,200 Speaker 12: not only do we have a Ukraine supplemental, but the FEMA, 1114 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,279 Speaker 12: as I understand, will be running out of money on 1115 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,640 Speaker 12: disasters here by the end of August, so we got 1116 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,600 Speaker 12: to act to do something, not just for Ukraine supplemental, 1117 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:01,000 Speaker 12: but we're going to have to do something for our 1118 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,840 Speaker 12: own natural disaster. Of course, we've moved into the hurricane 1119 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,440 Speaker 12: season and we have the wildfires and everything else, so 1120 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,759 Speaker 12: we're going to have to figure out a way to 1121 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 12: take care of this as it relates to Ukraine. Again, 1122 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,520 Speaker 12: this one is going to be a tough one because 1123 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 12: I think the Senate is very much In fact, the 1124 00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,160 Speaker 12: reason passed the Senate, as you know, was that there 1125 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,800 Speaker 12: was an agreement that there would be a supplemental going 1126 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,360 Speaker 12: forward at Lindsey Graham led the charge on and so 1127 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,760 Speaker 12: again I think the question will be whether or not 1128 00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,560 Speaker 12: mister McCarthy will have to depend upon moderate Democrats in 1129 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,200 Speaker 12: the House to pass that supplemental. The interesting thing is, 1130 00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,080 Speaker 12: of course, and not to get into the weeds here, 1131 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 12: but appropriation bills are supposed to originate in the House, 1132 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,480 Speaker 12: not in the Senate. So how they gets it out 1133 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,800 Speaker 12: of this house first before it gets to the Senate 1134 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 12: will be an issue that he'll have to confront. 1135 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:54,400 Speaker 2: Wow, we better stay in touch with Bill Hoglins. Many 1136 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,240 Speaker 2: thanks Bill for walking us through this, the senior vice president, 1137 00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,960 Speaker 2: Bipartisan Policy Center. He sounds concerned, Kayley, and Bill gets concerned. 1138 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:02,600 Speaker 2: I tend to do the same thing. 1139 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 15: Yeah, So that calendar is marked joey yay yye October first. 1140 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,600 Speaker 15: But as Bill says, a lot can change between now 1141 00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:10,040 Speaker 15: and then. 1142 00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 2: Could get worse. I mean, honestly, So we've established this 1143 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,400 Speaker 2: hour and we're only thirty two minutes in that the 1144 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,600 Speaker 2: government was shut down in October and nobody else wants 1145 00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,560 Speaker 2: the speaker's job. Okay, so pretty much where we were 1146 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,640 Speaker 2: last week, thanks to Bill. You need to go catch 1147 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,800 Speaker 2: an airplane, right, I do. I'll see you in Miami. 1148 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,480 Speaker 2: Will you have to check in tomorrow let us know 1149 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,520 Speaker 2: what the heck's going on. I know, of course, Kaylie. 1150 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,720 Speaker 2: Lions Miami bound and not for the fun of it. 1151 00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Sound on Podcast. Make sure 1152 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,240 Speaker 2: to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and 1153 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,880 Speaker 2: anywhere else you get your podcasts. And you can find 1154 00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,000 Speaker 2: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one pm 1155 00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 2: Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.