WEBVTT - Follow the Money 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:06.359 This is false prophets. I'm Noemi Ribe And in this episode, 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:10.600 I'm looking at Hillsong and money with l Hardy, a 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:14.080 journalist who has reported on Hillsong for several years. We 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:18.520 talked about exploitation in the last episode, and exploitation takes 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:23.120 a lot of different forms, including economic abuse. So we're 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:27.319 checking out Hillsong's financial oversight, looking at potential misuse of 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.200 church funds, and hearing about how past has traded employees. 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:33.800 You know, at the heart of the series is not 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:39.120 balance sheets, it's human beings, people like me who were 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.199 part of Hillsong Church. The people talking to us in 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:46.960 this series gave time, tithes, and trust to an organization 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.640 that turns over millions of dollars. So it's right to 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:57.200 ask was that transaction fair? Was it transparent? Because in 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.640 this story you can't really separate the stuff about money 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.800 from the spiritual stuff. Now to the big question, Yeah, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:10.200 how much would they pay you? Oh? Okay? So every 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.240 so breaking it down every week, it was one fifty 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.160 flat rate no matter how many hours I worked. So 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.120 even if I did a twelve hour day or a 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.959 six hour day, it was the same amount of pay. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.760 Meet tiff Tiffany Perez. We became friends through Hillsong. While 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.440 I was a volunteer in Boston, tiff was part of 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.559 the Nanny Club, a group of young women looking after 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.920 pastors kids. It's not a club you join if you 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.920 want to earn a living, but hey, you're helping to 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.800 do God's work, right. Tiff worked with Josh Kimes, lead 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.479 pastor in Boston, and his wife Leona. I did all 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:51.600 day Tuesdays and sometimes all day Wednesdays, so all day 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.120 meeting about twelve hours, like sometimes there was like a 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.200 ten to ten or I'm doing like a ten and 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:02.440 staying over into wednes Tiv had been a volunteer in 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.520 New York, moved to Boston and became a nanny, which 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.080 came with three accommodation with another pastor, Steve de Groza. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.120 Let's do the math, Okay, So it was one fifty 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.280 flat rate. Flat rate, that's let's say four weeks in 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.960 a month for the four weeks of six hundred dollars 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.440 a month a month. Okay, Yeah, now we're going to 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:25.440 divide it. I was part time, so we can do 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:30.359 twenty Okay, so twenty hours a week times four eighty hours, 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.760 so six hundred divided by eighty hours. You were making 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:41.400 seven fifty. Yeah, I was thirty at the time. Like, 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.400 it's like not livable, No, not at all, especially in 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.960 a city like Boston. And yes, you were living with Steve, 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:52.720 but that meant you had to commute into the city. 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.480 And I'm assuming the commute was on you. Yeah, and 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:59.799 that that wasn't There was nowhere touching what I did 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.519 four hills on Boston. And just to get technical here, 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.800 because Tiff was paid as a nanny, even if her 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.680 wages were really low, that made her an employee, not 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.440 a volunteer, and that raises a whole bunch of questions. 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.400 So did they pay you cash or did they like 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.600 it was a venmo so they went into duct tax 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.040 or anything. Okay, so it's just a venmo once a week, yeah, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:29.600 one fifty. Yeah, if they remembered, because sometimes I'd have 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.800 to remind them. What would you say when you had 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:36.560 to remind them, hey, didn't get paid. That's awkward. It 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.160 is because not only were they my employers, they were 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:46.880 also my pastors. And that's like another level. Yeah, yeah, 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.160 awkward to for Hillsong pastors because there are all sorts 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.880 of laws about minimum wage, tax and overtime. Remember Megan Fallon, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.360 She told us in the last episode about how volunteering 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.760 became a way of life. She was a nanny too, 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.360 and in her case for the past as Caine and 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:08.000 Carl Kating in New York. Megan was interviewed as part 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.720 of the lawyer's investigation, and for her, this wasn't only 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.920 about money. It's about how becoming a Hillsong nanny closed 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.839 down her social and her spiritual life. When I started 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:24.760 working for the pastors, I got cut off from everything, right, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.560 So it was like, well, your responsibilities taking care of 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.480 our children. Now, you can go to a service if 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.120 you have time, but you probably won't. You have to 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.159 leave your connect group, you have to leave your connections team. 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.799 I was super isolated. I was really lonely. I started 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:44.120 getting super anxious and depressed. My only friend was their 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.800 two year old son, you know. But also I don't 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.800 know if you've all ever been like a nanny before, 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.120 but it's hard because you grow super attached to this 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.880 child and at the end of the day you have 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.720 to leave. I was also living in New York. While 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.240 I was living in Brooklyn, but super expensive. I was 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.960 not getting paid really anything. So my dad was helping 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.159 me out with my rent and it came to a 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:09.719 point where he was like, you know, I can't do 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.120 this anymore. I had seen the pastors, and not just 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.000 the Keatings, but other pastors be like really rude and demeaning, 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.520 mean to me my friends kind of like we were 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.760 just like the help. Like I remember specifically one time 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.640 I borrowed a vacuum from another family in the we 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.560 called it the compound in the apartment complex, and when 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.680 they came home, I didn't empty out the vacuum part 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.000 and Carlo like dumped it on the ground and was 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.680 like you need to throw this out next time, and 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.640 then like clean this up again. And so if things 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.800 weren't done the right way. Um, looking back on it, 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.120 it was abuse. Really these are supposed to be my pastors. 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.440 But honestly, like I got paid more than some of 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.880 my friends did. When we would talk and they were like, 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.640 oh my gosh, you get that much, Like wow, like 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.600 two hundred dollars every two weeks. There's something I don't 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:02.599 know if that's an exact number, but something like that 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.320 and not even forty hours a week, like more than that, 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.839 and I got paid more than a lot of my 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:16.280 friends did. The lawyers heard Nanni's were routinely paid below 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:21.160 the minimum wage, tax wasn't deducted, and overtime wasn't paid, 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.320 and the lawyers warned Hillsong that could be a violation 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.279 of label laws. Lawyers do law right, They're not in 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.760 the business of faith or spiritual harm. But for me, 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:38.039 this economic exploitation again exposes something rotten in the relationship 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.560 between Hillsong and its followers. A lot was made of 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:43.880 the fact that Hillsong, New York was a new campus. 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.240 Everyone was working hard to start a new church, and 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.240 perhaps supervision and oversight went by the wayside for a while. 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.479 You know, it was described as the wild West. But 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.120 let's get Ashley as his view on this. She's a 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.600 cult survivor and an advocate for victims of abuse in churches. 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:03.800 Ashley believes the fact that Hillsong, New York is just 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.160 starting out is not an excuse, and she flags up 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.080 that Hillsong is affiliated to a charity called One. Its 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:15.320 mission is to fight human trafficking, force labor, bonded labor, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:21.440 and involuntary domestic servitude. When I looked at the economic exploitation. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.640 I could not help but see parallels between what was 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.840 happening to the nanny's and the volunteers quote unquote volunteers, 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:38.200 and the things that a ministry connected with Hillsong is 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:44.000 supposed to be against. So labor trafficking, human trafficking is 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:50.720 a huge problem across the globe and is supposed to 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.200 be fighting those things. And so to find a lot 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:59.520 of the patterns that we see in labor exploitation and 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:06.480 traffic agging present in the church was so ironic and unsettling, 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.840 because I feel like this isn't just an organization who 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:16.800 oops accidentally did labor exploitation because they didn't understand the laws. Now, 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.400 this is an organization that new or should have known 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:25.640 because of the organizations that they support and claim to 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.920 have leadership really dedicated to. So a lot of times 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.400 when we think of modern day slavery, we think of, 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.160 you know, somebody's not getting paid anything at all, But 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.960 actually labor exploitation includes not being paid a living wage, 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.880 not being given minimum wage, not being paid over time, 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.679 those types of things. A lot of times what happens 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.600 is there will be a person who feels somehow indebted 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.680 to the person they're laboring for being paid not enough 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.440 for them to really gain financial stability to leave. And 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.480 when we look at Hillsong, we're seeing pastors saying things like, 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:05.959 you don't have a college degree, you couldn't get a 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.160 job outside of this. We have them in a position 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.920 where they feel like they're working for really low amounts 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.960 of money. Because I'm helping the ministry, I can't help 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:26.480 but see the overlaps between the organizations they're supposed to 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.680 support and then what they're actually doing in their own organizations. 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.040 And while the nunnies were being paid very little, Hillsong 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.440 inside is with sharing stories with the investigators about how 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.800 money was being spent on expensive gifts, entertaining celebrities, and 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:46.079 the pasta's lifestyle. Since this is a virtual interview, I'm 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.480 wearing the virtual interview uniform where I've got a color 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.280 on top and then jim shorts and no shoes on bottom, 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.760 just like Jesus would do. My name is Ben Kirby, 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:04.000 and I created this strange social media sensation called Preachers 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:08.880 and Sneakers where I show the high priced items that 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.439 mega church pastors where we like a bit of backstory. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.000 So how did Ben get into pastors and their sneakers. 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:19.080 So I was by myself and I slept late on Sunday, 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.960 and being in the South, it's very like you go 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.280 to church on Sunday's if you're involved in that world, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.280 and if you sleep through, there's some element of you 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.640 that feels a little guilty. And so even though that's 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.920 like not correct theology, that is like, you're not a 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.679 bad person for sleeping through church, but there is some 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.920 kind of embedded little amount of guilt that from your upbringing, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.160 I guess, and that wasn't even instilled upon me. It 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.720 was just like, by being in this Southern church world 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.880 by proximity, there's this kind of inherent guilt if you 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.280 skip church. But that's a different conversation. But I slept 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.640 through church, and I wanted to have some type of 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.720 church experience, I guess, to check the box. And so 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.680 that week I had this certain Worships song stuck in 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.600 my head and I happened to just look it up 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:05.360 on YouTube because I was gonna watch the video and 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.439 that was it, and I noticed a worship leader, like 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.360 you know, the guy leading the band, lead singer, was 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:16.240 wearing a pair of Kanye's collaboration with Adidas. He was 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.559 wearing a pair of Yeasys, and so very quickly I 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.640 was like, oh, those are worth eight hundred bucks, and 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:25.360 that like stuck out to me. And I didn't care 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:30.440 that much about reforming modern preaching or how we present 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.640 Christianity or whatever, but I felt compelled, like like a 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.080 lot of people do, to just share it on Instagram 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.600 with all my millennial friends that are doing the same, 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.120 not thinking that anything's gonna happen, having no plan or 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:44.760 any kind of strategy or anything. And I just made 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.439 a video basically saying like, hey, how much of these 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.599 guys getting paid where you can wear a pair of 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.479 eight hundred fifty dollar shoes like it. It wasn't informed. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:56.000 It was probably a little unfair where it's just like, Okay, 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.040 I've watched a three minute video and now I'm developing 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:03.520 these hot takes about this guy's footwear. Ben, my friend, 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.080 you did the world service. This quickly turned into an 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:11.960 account devoted to preachers wearing super expensive designer clothes. Trust me, 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.720 Hillsong Fashion, he stays and nothing on some of the 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.920 other pastors. But they did get noticed, and so it 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.040 was pretty easy at first to find plenty of examples 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.920 of preachers wearing the Nike Air Fear of Gods or 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:29.000 wearing eve St Laurent or ys L boots all the 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:34.199 way to Gucci sneakers and loafers and incredibly expensive jackets. 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:35.920 I mean, there was a whole host of things that 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:37.760 you know, hill Song wasn't the only ones, but they 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.120 were definitely presenting some of that same aesthetic. And so 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:43.880 I threw a few posts up there. And hill Song 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:48.120 is one of the more recognizable names in modern church, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.160 and so that would always get a good amount of engagement. 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.480 And at the same time, the die hard fans of 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.679 hill Song were quick to come to their I guess defense, 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.760 And I can't say I've had many pleasant interactions with 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.800 people involved with that church. I'm not a brand's person, 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:12.040 so I couldn't tell how much their wardrobes were worth. 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.480 But other people could, like other people do no brands 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:21.599 and could recognize like oh oh okay Janice Lagata, remember 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:23.760 she was a part of Hillsong New York from the start. 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.680 And that's where the whole celebrity church vibe played out, 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.680 with Justin Bieber hanging out with Carl Lenz and other 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.199 famous names dropping by and the pulse the same to 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.000 channel that vibe to riding around in black SUVs with 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.560 their own drivers, wearing fancy clothes and enjoying all the 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.679 trappings of a glamorous life. And then when they would 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.199 get called up on things, you're like, oh this this 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.240 is an expensive watch, or you know, these shoes or whatever. 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.440 Then you know that's who's like, oh these were a 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.680 gift or just turn it back around, well, why do 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.880 you think pastors should be poor? And this is me 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.720 wanting things that I haven't earned, and I just need 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.920 to work harder and do more good things so that 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:09.000 I can be more blessed. And we are ill equipped 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.600 to critically think about things and critically argue. And even 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.960 if you could, the power dynamics are so out of 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:22.280 control you wouldn't. If you wanted to know how rich 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.120 Hillsong Ace Coast Waltz, you could look at it san 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.560 your report, the last one made public was for two 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.240 thousand and nineteen. It gives basic facts like how much 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.400 revenue was generated, how much the church spent on staging 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.800 its services, and how much it's spent on stuff, but 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.360 it's not very detailed, and churches aren't legally required to 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.840 provide much information and how many of us scrutinize our 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.440 church's balance sheets. Anyway, a new Hillsong had a lot 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:55.280 of money. My understanding for the first five years at 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.960 least was like, Oh, all of this money is coming 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.400 from the big church, like it's coming from Australia. We 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:07.160 are being supported by them. We are financially struggling. No 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.760 one said those exact words, but yeah, the way they 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.800 would phrase things, the way they word things. You know, 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:15.680 I've talked to other friends and I'm like, what did 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.480 you think the financial status of hill Song, New York was? 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.080 And we all just had this idea that it was 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.560 a struggling campus, right, And they would say things like, oh, 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:30.440 only eight of the people who attending are tithing regularly, 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.560 and so you just had this idea that, Okay, I'm tithing, 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.120 but I'm one of the few, and so I have 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.480 to keep doing my part because most people just aren't 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.840 pulling their weight. You know. That's another thing I think 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:46.200 about churches now, Why can't people know how much the 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.400 rent is on this building, how much we're paying for whatever, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.000 and as a community make these decisions about is it 0:15:54.040 --> 0:16:01.320 worth it? Like many churches you're expected to give temperacent 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.560 of your income and tides, but as Joanna said, a 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.480 lot of people don't, including me. I never gave Hillsong 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.040 one penny, one thing at least I'm happy about. But 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:16.040 plenty of people do pay tides, and Hillsong has strategies 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.840 to encourage some people to give a lot of their money. 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.760 I was given a document by someone who used to 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.880 be fairly high up in Hillsong, shall we say, and 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.480 it was about the position of a development pastor. But 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.200 as it was explained to me, it was really about 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.960 targeting high net worth individuals at the church. So the 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:39.160 document is written in that kind of very bland hr 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.120 language that makes it seem like it's all very above board. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.440 But the person who was involved in this said that 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.480 they were told very explicitly that it was really about 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.600 finding out who the rich people were in the congregation 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.160 and working out how they could get money out of them. 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.640 You see terms like providing opportunities for the outworking of 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:00.200 a person's gift of generosity. This just meant fly ending 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:01.760 out who's got money and how much you can get 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:03.360 out of them, And it was about finding out what 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.920 they're interested in. So maybe they had a vision for 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.480 giving some sort of hearing bus in India and then 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:14.160 they'll name it the l Hardy hearing bus in India. 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.680 You know, as part of the cell, was this actually 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.199 about developing a hearing bus in India or is this 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.160 about growing the hillsonge brand. Yeah, And you know there's 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.160 this thing about blessings and whether by giving more you're 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.800 getting more spiritually. And it wasn't just rich people who 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.480 gave more and more. Here's all Odhara deal, who we 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.040 met earlier in the series. I had to realize I 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.359 had weird views about my tithing, about the way I 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.760 gave my money. I really believed I had to give 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.960 my money to Hillsong, And when I decided I was 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.320 going to leave the church, I was just like, oh 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:51.639 my god, what am I gonna do with all this 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.280 tithing money I had to give my money? Oh my god, 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.000 I don't want to lose any blessings that da da 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.159 da da. And I had to unpack that, and you know, 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.879 obviously I'm definitely not in that place anymore of the 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.639 way of view tithing, and I don't view tithing is 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.399 just giving money. I viewed as giving time to something 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.359 that you feel like is benefiting God in the world. 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.800 But at the time, at the end of I was 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.840 definitely like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.440 all this money. And that's something that they instilled in me. 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:27.640 I remember when I joined Hillsong Foundation, which is another 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.920 part of the church where you give more than your 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:34.560 ten percent. I talked to someone and she was like, well, 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.600 if you just want God to bless you more, blah 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:41.800 blah blah, then you need to give more. And I 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.119 was just like, yeah, you know, I guess that's a 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.399 great way to look at it. Obviously I want more blessings. 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.160 A year and a half later, I was like, what 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.520 am I doing? Tithes are important to Hill Song, but 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.560 they're only a part of an empire that's turning over millions. 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.879 The biggerners are music sales. Then there's plenty of merge 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.760 and conferences. If it's so successful, what does that look 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.280 like in terms of money? What are the numbers? That's 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.760 the billion dollar question and one to which I wish 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.720 I knew the answer. So Hill Songs say that they're transparent, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.520 they have financial returns that are audited by and Young. 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.119 One of the biggest accounting firms in the world that 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.000 they will put on their website every year. But it 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.840 doesn't go into any detail. It just tells you the 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:34.320 headline numbers, so revenue, assets, what they're spending on things 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.720 like salaries, but not how much is going to whop, 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:38.880 which is what I'd love to know. It's a very 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.280 handy way of saying that you're transparent while being very opaque. 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:44.520 But I mean we do know. For example, so the 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.640 East Coast in two thousand and nineteen probably the height 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.919 on the highest point it ever got, they were spending 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:56.560 about twelve million in operations each year, had about six 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.200 million in assets. The Australian operations there same year, we're 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.960 talking about in U s. Dollars about sixty million in 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:09.359 annual revenue and then millions in curclus. I think a 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.120 lot of the music arms and other churches paying back 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.680 had to come through the Australian operations, which is why 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:17.960 they've got a lot of money there. But you know, 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.600 when you're totaling up churches on every continent bringing in substantial, 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.360 probably millions each per year, I don't think it would 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:30.160 be difficult to argue from that that in the real peak. 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.439 Hill Song years, which I would say is two thousand 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.159 and ten to two thousand and twenty. That we're talking 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:39.400 in billions of dollars in US dollars. We're cycling through 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.600 the Hillsong brand globally, which I think is a tremendous 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:54.040 amount of money. I knew they had a lot of money, 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.600 I didn't know to what excet, and I always wanted 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.040 to know more, And I did learn a little bit 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:05.600 about what Josh Coimes made. It was around believe forty 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.239 thou which is not that much, but it was just 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.640 for him to spend because his housing was paid for 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:16.840 and with all utilities, transportation was always paid for. So 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.440 really his forty dollars was just for him to spend. 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.280 It's funny because the first thing that I can think 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:27.400 of was the and I'm sorry for the Christianity's out there, 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.960 but there's this Bible verse that talks about money being 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.760 the root of all evil, and if they're so interested 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.080 and focused on money, it says a lot about their 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.879 culture and where they're at right now. Yeah. One of 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.679 the other things which I really want to know in 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:45.840 terms of the money, that it wasn't so much just 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.240 a straight up salary. I mean, I remember Brian Houston 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.360 used to publish his way way back in the day, 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.240 you know, like fifteen years ago or something, and it 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.600 was a few hundred thousands, but eventually he wound up 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:02.080 not just a few hundred thousand, just a few hundred thousand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:06.160 fifteen years ago as well. Um, oh my god. But 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.600 you know, comparatively saying hey, I'm not one of these 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.320 preachers with a private jet, and and sort of trying 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.880 to to play it that way because he didn't want 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:19.320 to buy one, because he could afford it for sure. Yeah, 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.000 but he went on to say, I think that he 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:22.960 wasn't taking a salary, you know, a bit like a 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:24.840 bit like President Trump. And it's sort of like, but 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.600 your brand recognition for want of the better term is 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.520 so big now, But what so many of the passes 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.160 and people that were able to climb the Hillsong ladder 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.159 got It wasn't just in your pay packet. It was 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.480 you know, for example, if you've been a producer on 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:42.359 any Hillsong songs or records, you're getting a cut of 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:46.359 the royalties. But it's books, it's speaking to us. And 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:48.280 when Hillsong was really at its peak, I mean some 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:50.800 of like Carl Lents going to conventions in the States, 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:54.199 he would have commanded tens of thousands per appearance. And 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:56.320 I mean that's how Brian was making his money was 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:00.600 in book sales and music royalties and appearances and then 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:03.159 building themselves up and building their own celebrities so that 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:05.760 they could just make untold riches and then you can say, 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:08.040 I'm not taking this out of the collection plate. You know, 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:10.879 people are willingly paying me. They look in some ways 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:14.199 more ethical than other churches through this very kind of 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.680 bizarre business model. So it's fascinating to see how they 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:21.520 even use their same brand and the church for their 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.320 own marketing and their own business. Yeah. Well, I mean 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:26.800 you would have seen the merchandise stands and things like 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.199 that at the conference. I would set them up, not 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.240 our conference, but at church. Yeah, every Sunday there was 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:34.600 a merch table. I mean it was so baked into 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.399 the business model. You know, we were talking about, you know, 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:39.560 if Josh is only getting forty grand a year, but 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:43.120