1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: This is false prophets. I'm Noemi Ribe And in this episode, 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm looking at Hillsong and money with l Hardy, a 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: journalist who has reported on Hillsong for several years. We 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: talked about exploitation in the last episode, and exploitation takes 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: a lot of different forms, including economic abuse. So we're 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: checking out Hillsong's financial oversight, looking at potential misuse of 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: church funds, and hearing about how past has traded employees. 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: You know, at the heart of the series is not 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: balance sheets, it's human beings, people like me who were 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: part of Hillsong Church. The people talking to us in 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: this series gave time, tithes, and trust to an organization 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: that turns over millions of dollars. So it's right to 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: ask was that transaction fair? Was it transparent? Because in 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: this story you can't really separate the stuff about money 15 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: from the spiritual stuff. Now to the big question, Yeah, 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: how much would they pay you? Oh? Okay? So every 17 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: so breaking it down every week, it was one fifty 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: flat rate no matter how many hours I worked. So 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: even if I did a twelve hour day or a 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: six hour day, it was the same amount of pay. 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: Meet tiff Tiffany Perez. We became friends through Hillsong. While 22 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: I was a volunteer in Boston, tiff was part of 23 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: the Nanny Club, a group of young women looking after 24 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: pastors kids. It's not a club you join if you 25 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: want to earn a living, but hey, you're helping to 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: do God's work, right. Tiff worked with Josh Kimes, lead 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: pastor in Boston, and his wife Leona. I did all 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: day Tuesdays and sometimes all day Wednesdays, so all day 29 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: meeting about twelve hours, like sometimes there was like a 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: ten to ten or I'm doing like a ten and 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: staying over into wednes Tiv had been a volunteer in 32 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: New York, moved to Boston and became a nanny, which 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: came with three accommodation with another pastor, Steve de Groza. 34 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: Let's do the math, Okay, So it was one fifty 35 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: flat rate. Flat rate, that's let's say four weeks in 36 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: a month for the four weeks of six hundred dollars 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: a month a month. Okay, Yeah, now we're going to 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: divide it. I was part time, so we can do 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: twenty Okay, so twenty hours a week times four eighty hours, 40 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: so six hundred divided by eighty hours. You were making 41 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: seven fifty. Yeah, I was thirty at the time. Like, 42 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: it's like not livable, No, not at all, especially in 43 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: a city like Boston. And yes, you were living with Steve, 44 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: but that meant you had to commute into the city. 45 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming the commute was on you. Yeah, and 46 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: that that wasn't There was nowhere touching what I did 47 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: four hills on Boston. And just to get technical here, 48 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: because Tiff was paid as a nanny, even if her 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: wages were really low, that made her an employee, not 50 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: a volunteer, and that raises a whole bunch of questions. 51 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: So did they pay you cash or did they like 52 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: it was a venmo so they went into duct tax 53 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: or anything. Okay, so it's just a venmo once a week, yeah, 54 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: one fifty. Yeah, if they remembered, because sometimes I'd have 55 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: to remind them. What would you say when you had 56 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: to remind them, hey, didn't get paid. That's awkward. It 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: is because not only were they my employers, they were 58 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: also my pastors. And that's like another level. Yeah, yeah, 59 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: awkward to for Hillsong pastors because there are all sorts 60 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: of laws about minimum wage, tax and overtime. Remember Megan Fallon, 61 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: She told us in the last episode about how volunteering 62 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: became a way of life. She was a nanny too, 63 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: and in her case for the past as Caine and 64 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: Carl Kating in New York. Megan was interviewed as part 65 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: of the lawyer's investigation, and for her, this wasn't only 66 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: about money. It's about how becoming a Hillsong nanny closed 67 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: down her social and her spiritual life. When I started 68 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: working for the pastors, I got cut off from everything, right, 69 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: So it was like, well, your responsibilities taking care of 70 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: our children. Now, you can go to a service if 71 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: you have time, but you probably won't. You have to 72 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: leave your connect group, you have to leave your connections team. 73 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 1: I was super isolated. I was really lonely. I started 74 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: getting super anxious and depressed. My only friend was their 75 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: two year old son, you know. But also I don't 76 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: know if you've all ever been like a nanny before, 77 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: but it's hard because you grow super attached to this 78 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: child and at the end of the day you have 79 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: to leave. I was also living in New York. While 80 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: I was living in Brooklyn, but super expensive. I was 81 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: not getting paid really anything. So my dad was helping 82 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: me out with my rent and it came to a 83 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: point where he was like, you know, I can't do 84 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: this anymore. I had seen the pastors, and not just 85 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: the Keatings, but other pastors be like really rude and demeaning, 86 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: mean to me my friends kind of like we were 87 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: just like the help. Like I remember specifically one time 88 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: I borrowed a vacuum from another family in the we 89 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: called it the compound in the apartment complex, and when 90 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: they came home, I didn't empty out the vacuum part 91 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: and Carlo like dumped it on the ground and was 92 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: like you need to throw this out next time, and 93 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: then like clean this up again. And so if things 94 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: weren't done the right way. Um, looking back on it, 95 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: it was abuse. Really these are supposed to be my pastors. 96 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: But honestly, like I got paid more than some of 97 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: my friends did. When we would talk and they were like, 98 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you get that much, Like wow, like 99 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars every two weeks. There's something I don't 100 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: know if that's an exact number, but something like that 101 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: and not even forty hours a week, like more than that, 102 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: and I got paid more than a lot of my 103 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: friends did. The lawyers heard Nanni's were routinely paid below 104 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: the minimum wage, tax wasn't deducted, and overtime wasn't paid, 105 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: and the lawyers warned Hillsong that could be a violation 106 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: of label laws. Lawyers do law right, They're not in 107 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: the business of faith or spiritual harm. But for me, 108 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: this economic exploitation again exposes something rotten in the relationship 109 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: between Hillsong and its followers. A lot was made of 110 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: the fact that Hillsong, New York was a new campus. 111 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: Everyone was working hard to start a new church, and 112 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: perhaps supervision and oversight went by the wayside for a while. 113 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: You know, it was described as the wild West. But 114 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: let's get Ashley as his view on this. She's a 115 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: cult survivor and an advocate for victims of abuse in churches. 116 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: Ashley believes the fact that Hillsong, New York is just 117 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: starting out is not an excuse, and she flags up 118 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: that Hillsong is affiliated to a charity called One. Its 119 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: mission is to fight human trafficking, force labor, bonded labor, 120 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: and involuntary domestic servitude. When I looked at the economic exploitation. 121 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: I could not help but see parallels between what was 122 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: happening to the nanny's and the volunteers quote unquote volunteers, 123 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: and the things that a ministry connected with Hillsong is 124 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: supposed to be against. So labor trafficking, human trafficking is 125 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: a huge problem across the globe and is supposed to 126 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: be fighting those things. And so to find a lot 127 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: of the patterns that we see in labor exploitation and 128 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: traffic agging present in the church was so ironic and unsettling, 129 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: because I feel like this isn't just an organization who 130 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: oops accidentally did labor exploitation because they didn't understand the laws. Now, 131 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: this is an organization that new or should have known 132 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: because of the organizations that they support and claim to 133 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: have leadership really dedicated to. So a lot of times 134 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: when we think of modern day slavery, we think of, 135 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, somebody's not getting paid anything at all, But 136 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: actually labor exploitation includes not being paid a living wage, 137 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: not being given minimum wage, not being paid over time, 138 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: those types of things. A lot of times what happens 139 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: is there will be a person who feels somehow indebted 140 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: to the person they're laboring for being paid not enough 141 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: for them to really gain financial stability to leave. And 142 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: when we look at Hillsong, we're seeing pastors saying things like, 143 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: you don't have a college degree, you couldn't get a 144 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: job outside of this. We have them in a position 145 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: where they feel like they're working for really low amounts 146 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: of money. Because I'm helping the ministry, I can't help 147 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: but see the overlaps between the organizations they're supposed to 148 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: support and then what they're actually doing in their own organizations. 149 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: And while the nunnies were being paid very little, Hillsong 150 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: inside is with sharing stories with the investigators about how 151 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: money was being spent on expensive gifts, entertaining celebrities, and 152 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: the pasta's lifestyle. Since this is a virtual interview, I'm 153 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: wearing the virtual interview uniform where I've got a color 154 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: on top and then jim shorts and no shoes on bottom, 155 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: just like Jesus would do. My name is Ben Kirby, 156 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: and I created this strange social media sensation called Preachers 157 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: and Sneakers where I show the high priced items that 158 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: mega church pastors where we like a bit of backstory. 159 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: So how did Ben get into pastors and their sneakers. 160 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: So I was by myself and I slept late on Sunday, 161 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: and being in the South, it's very like you go 162 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: to church on Sunday's if you're involved in that world, 163 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: and if you sleep through, there's some element of you 164 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: that feels a little guilty. And so even though that's 165 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: like not correct theology, that is like, you're not a 166 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: bad person for sleeping through church, but there is some 167 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: kind of embedded little amount of guilt that from your upbringing, 168 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: I guess, and that wasn't even instilled upon me. It 169 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: was just like, by being in this Southern church world 170 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: by proximity, there's this kind of inherent guilt if you 171 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: skip church. But that's a different conversation. But I slept 172 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: through church, and I wanted to have some type of 173 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: church experience, I guess, to check the box. And so 174 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: that week I had this certain Worships song stuck in 175 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: my head and I happened to just look it up 176 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: on YouTube because I was gonna watch the video and 177 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: that was it, and I noticed a worship leader, like 178 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: you know, the guy leading the band, lead singer, was 179 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: wearing a pair of Kanye's collaboration with Adidas. He was 180 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: wearing a pair of Yeasys, and so very quickly I 181 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: was like, oh, those are worth eight hundred bucks, and 182 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: that like stuck out to me. And I didn't care 183 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: that much about reforming modern preaching or how we present 184 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: Christianity or whatever, but I felt compelled, like like a 185 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: lot of people do, to just share it on Instagram 186 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: with all my millennial friends that are doing the same, 187 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: not thinking that anything's gonna happen, having no plan or 188 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: any kind of strategy or anything. And I just made 189 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: a video basically saying like, hey, how much of these 190 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,599 Speaker 1: guys getting paid where you can wear a pair of 191 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,479 Speaker 1: eight hundred fifty dollar shoes like it. It wasn't informed. 192 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: It was probably a little unfair where it's just like, Okay, 193 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: I've watched a three minute video and now I'm developing 194 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: these hot takes about this guy's footwear. Ben, my friend, 195 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: you did the world service. This quickly turned into an 196 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: account devoted to preachers wearing super expensive designer clothes. Trust me, 197 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: Hillsong Fashion, he stays and nothing on some of the 198 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: other pastors. But they did get noticed, and so it 199 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: was pretty easy at first to find plenty of examples 200 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: of preachers wearing the Nike Air Fear of Gods or 201 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: wearing eve St Laurent or ys L boots all the 202 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: way to Gucci sneakers and loafers and incredibly expensive jackets. 203 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: I mean, there was a whole host of things that 204 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, hill Song wasn't the only ones, but they 205 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: were definitely presenting some of that same aesthetic. And so 206 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: I threw a few posts up there. And hill Song 207 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: is one of the more recognizable names in modern church, 208 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: and so that would always get a good amount of engagement. 209 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: And at the same time, the die hard fans of 210 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: hill Song were quick to come to their I guess defense, 211 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: And I can't say I've had many pleasant interactions with 212 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: people involved with that church. I'm not a brand's person, 213 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: so I couldn't tell how much their wardrobes were worth. 214 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: But other people could, like other people do no brands 215 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,599 Speaker 1: and could recognize like oh oh okay Janice Lagata, remember 216 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: she was a part of Hillsong New York from the start. 217 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: And that's where the whole celebrity church vibe played out, 218 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: with Justin Bieber hanging out with Carl Lenz and other 219 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: famous names dropping by and the pulse the same to 220 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: channel that vibe to riding around in black SUVs with 221 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: their own drivers, wearing fancy clothes and enjoying all the 222 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: trappings of a glamorous life. And then when they would 223 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: get called up on things, you're like, oh this this 224 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: is an expensive watch, or you know, these shoes or whatever. 225 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: Then you know that's who's like, oh these were a 226 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: gift or just turn it back around, well, why do 227 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: you think pastors should be poor? And this is me 228 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: wanting things that I haven't earned, and I just need 229 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: to work harder and do more good things so that 230 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: I can be more blessed. And we are ill equipped 231 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: to critically think about things and critically argue. And even 232 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: if you could, the power dynamics are so out of 233 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: control you wouldn't. If you wanted to know how rich 234 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: Hillsong Ace Coast Waltz, you could look at it san 235 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: your report, the last one made public was for two 236 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: thousand and nineteen. It gives basic facts like how much 237 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: revenue was generated, how much the church spent on staging 238 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: its services, and how much it's spent on stuff, but 239 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: it's not very detailed, and churches aren't legally required to 240 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: provide much information and how many of us scrutinize our 241 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: church's balance sheets. Anyway, a new Hillsong had a lot 242 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: of money. My understanding for the first five years at 243 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: least was like, Oh, all of this money is coming 244 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: from the big church, like it's coming from Australia. We 245 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: are being supported by them. We are financially struggling. No 246 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: one said those exact words, but yeah, the way they 247 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: would phrase things, the way they word things. You know, 248 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: I've talked to other friends and I'm like, what did 249 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: you think the financial status of hill Song, New York was? 250 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: And we all just had this idea that it was 251 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: a struggling campus, right, And they would say things like, oh, 252 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: only eight of the people who attending are tithing regularly, 253 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: and so you just had this idea that, Okay, I'm tithing, 254 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: but I'm one of the few, and so I have 255 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: to keep doing my part because most people just aren't 256 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: pulling their weight. You know. That's another thing I think 257 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: about churches now, Why can't people know how much the 258 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: rent is on this building, how much we're paying for whatever, 259 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: and as a community make these decisions about is it 260 00:15:54,040 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: worth it? Like many churches you're expected to give temperacent 261 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: of your income and tides, but as Joanna said, a 262 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: lot of people don't, including me. I never gave Hillsong 263 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: one penny, one thing at least I'm happy about. But 264 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: plenty of people do pay tides, and Hillsong has strategies 265 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: to encourage some people to give a lot of their money. 266 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: I was given a document by someone who used to 267 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: be fairly high up in Hillsong, shall we say, and 268 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: it was about the position of a development pastor. But 269 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: as it was explained to me, it was really about 270 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: targeting high net worth individuals at the church. So the 271 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: document is written in that kind of very bland hr 272 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: language that makes it seem like it's all very above board. 273 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: But the person who was involved in this said that 274 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: they were told very explicitly that it was really about 275 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: finding out who the rich people were in the congregation 276 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: and working out how they could get money out of them. 277 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: You see terms like providing opportunities for the outworking of 278 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: a person's gift of generosity. This just meant fly ending 279 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: out who's got money and how much you can get 280 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: out of them, And it was about finding out what 281 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: they're interested in. So maybe they had a vision for 282 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: giving some sort of hearing bus in India and then 283 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: they'll name it the l Hardy hearing bus in India. 284 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: You know, as part of the cell, was this actually 285 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: about developing a hearing bus in India or is this 286 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: about growing the hillsonge brand. Yeah, And you know there's 287 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: this thing about blessings and whether by giving more you're 288 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: getting more spiritually. And it wasn't just rich people who 289 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: gave more and more. Here's all Odhara deal, who we 290 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: met earlier in the series. I had to realize I 291 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: had weird views about my tithing, about the way I 292 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: gave my money. I really believed I had to give 293 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: my money to Hillsong, And when I decided I was 294 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: going to leave the church, I was just like, oh 295 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: my god, what am I gonna do with all this 296 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: tithing money I had to give my money? Oh my god, 297 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to lose any blessings that da da 298 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: da da. And I had to unpack that, and you know, 299 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: obviously I'm definitely not in that place anymore of the 300 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: way of view tithing, and I don't view tithing is 301 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: just giving money. I viewed as giving time to something 302 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: that you feel like is benefiting God in the world. 303 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: But at the time, at the end of I was 304 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: definitely like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with 305 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: all this money. And that's something that they instilled in me. 306 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: I remember when I joined Hillsong Foundation, which is another 307 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: part of the church where you give more than your 308 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: ten percent. I talked to someone and she was like, well, 309 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: if you just want God to bless you more, blah 310 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: blah blah, then you need to give more. And I 311 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, you know, I guess that's a 312 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: great way to look at it. Obviously I want more blessings. 313 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: A year and a half later, I was like, what 314 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: am I doing? Tithes are important to Hill Song, but 315 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: they're only a part of an empire that's turning over millions. 316 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: The biggerners are music sales. Then there's plenty of merge 317 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: and conferences. If it's so successful, what does that look 318 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: like in terms of money? What are the numbers? That's 319 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: the billion dollar question and one to which I wish 320 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: I knew the answer. So Hill Songs say that they're transparent, 321 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: they have financial returns that are audited by and Young. 322 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: One of the biggest accounting firms in the world that 323 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: they will put on their website every year. But it 324 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: doesn't go into any detail. It just tells you the 325 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: headline numbers, so revenue, assets, what they're spending on things 326 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: like salaries, but not how much is going to whop, 327 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: which is what I'd love to know. It's a very 328 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: handy way of saying that you're transparent while being very opaque. 329 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: But I mean we do know. For example, so the 330 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: East Coast in two thousand and nineteen probably the height 331 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: on the highest point it ever got, they were spending 332 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: about twelve million in operations each year, had about six 333 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: million in assets. The Australian operations there same year, we're 334 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: talking about in U s. Dollars about sixty million in 335 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: annual revenue and then millions in curclus. I think a 336 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: lot of the music arms and other churches paying back 337 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: had to come through the Australian operations, which is why 338 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: they've got a lot of money there. But you know, 339 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: when you're totaling up churches on every continent bringing in substantial, 340 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: probably millions each per year, I don't think it would 341 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: be difficult to argue from that that in the real peak. 342 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: Hill Song years, which I would say is two thousand 343 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: and ten to two thousand and twenty. That we're talking 344 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: in billions of dollars in US dollars. We're cycling through 345 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: the Hillsong brand globally, which I think is a tremendous 346 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: amount of money. I knew they had a lot of money, 347 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: I didn't know to what excet, and I always wanted 348 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: to know more, And I did learn a little bit 349 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: about what Josh Coimes made. It was around believe forty 350 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 1: thou which is not that much, but it was just 351 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: for him to spend because his housing was paid for 352 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: and with all utilities, transportation was always paid for. So 353 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: really his forty dollars was just for him to spend. 354 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: It's funny because the first thing that I can think 355 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: of was the and I'm sorry for the Christianity's out there, 356 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: but there's this Bible verse that talks about money being 357 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: the root of all evil, and if they're so interested 358 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: and focused on money, it says a lot about their 359 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: culture and where they're at right now. Yeah. One of 360 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: the other things which I really want to know in 361 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: terms of the money, that it wasn't so much just 362 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: a straight up salary. I mean, I remember Brian Houston 363 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: used to publish his way way back in the day, 364 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, like fifteen years ago or something, and it 365 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: was a few hundred thousands, but eventually he wound up 366 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: not just a few hundred thousand, just a few hundred thousand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 367 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago as well. Um, oh my god. But 368 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, comparatively saying hey, I'm not one of these 369 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: preachers with a private jet, and and sort of trying 370 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: to to play it that way because he didn't want 371 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: to buy one, because he could afford it for sure. Yeah, 372 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: but he went on to say, I think that he 373 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: wasn't taking a salary, you know, a bit like a 374 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: bit like President Trump. And it's sort of like, but 375 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: your brand recognition for want of the better term is 376 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: so big now, But what so many of the passes 377 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: and people that were able to climb the Hillsong ladder 378 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: got It wasn't just in your pay packet. It was 379 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: you know, for example, if you've been a producer on 380 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: any Hillsong songs or records, you're getting a cut of 381 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: the royalties. But it's books, it's speaking to us. And 382 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: when Hillsong was really at its peak, I mean some 383 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: of like Carl Lents going to conventions in the States, 384 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: he would have commanded tens of thousands per appearance. And 385 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: I mean that's how Brian was making his money was 386 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: in book sales and music royalties and appearances and then 387 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: building themselves up and building their own celebrities so that 388 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: they could just make untold riches and then you can say, 389 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: I'm not taking this out of the collection plate. You know, 390 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: people are willingly paying me. They look in some ways 391 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: more ethical than other churches through this very kind of 392 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: bizarre business model. So it's fascinating to see how they 393 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: even use their same brand and the church for their 394 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: own marketing and their own business. Yeah. Well, I mean 395 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: you would have seen the merchandise stands and things like 396 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: that at the conference. I would set them up, not 397 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: our conference, but at church. Yeah, every Sunday there was 398 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: a merch table. I mean it was so baked into 399 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: the business model. You know, we were talking about, you know, 400 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: if Josh is only getting forty grand a year, but 401 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: you know he's getting his kids nannied for free, and 402 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: and there was this weird kind of trying to think 403 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: of the right word because I'm not sure if it's obsession, 404 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: but just this drive to constantly use the free labor 405 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: volunteer pool. It was just finding new and bizarre ways 406 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: to put these people to work. It was just a 407 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: really is our culture that came in and I mean 408 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: I don't need to tell you about it, but just 409 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: that constantly that everything they did, you know, and just 410 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: feeding this constant growth had to be done by free 411 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: volunteer labor. My name is Barry Bowen. I'm an investigator 412 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: of religious financial fraud. I worked for Trinity Foundation, a 413 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: watchdog organization based in Dallas, Texas. I grew up in 414 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: South Louisiana and my dad was a minister. And in 415 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties there was a big scandal involving a 416 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: televangel's pastor about ninety minutes drive from where I lived, 417 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: a guy named Jimmy Swaggered. And then around two thousand 418 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: three or four, I was flipping through a TV channels 419 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,239 Speaker 1: one day and I came across a televangelist and fundraising mode. Um. 420 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: It was a guy named Mike Murdoch, and he said 421 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,479 Speaker 1: on TV, so a seat on your credit card and 422 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: God will erase your credit card debt. Basically, he's telling 423 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: donors give a donation with the credit card, and God's 424 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: going to wipe out your credit card debt. And when 425 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: I heard him say that, as like you're lying to people. 426 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: That's fraud and I'm gonna take you down. We asked 427 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: Barry Bowen to look at the allegations as surfaced in 428 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: the lawyer's investigation at Hillsong New York. Here's his opinion 429 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: on how transparent and Hillsong finances are. So they created 430 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: a newsroom to deal with some of them media issues, 431 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: and so their newsroom on their website they have an 432 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,479 Speaker 1: article and I just wanted to read this to you. 433 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: In the past few months, we've received questions from several 434 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: journalists about the purported misuse of church funds by Hillsong 435 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: Church employees. In many cases, inaccurate accounts from extremely unreliable 436 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: sources have been reported as if they are true. Hillsong 437 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: Church has a record of excellence and fiscal accountability globally 438 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: and an unwavering commitment to financial integrity, with numerous structures 439 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: and auditing procedures in place to protect against misuse. Talk 440 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: about spin, there's a difference between good policies and good systems. 441 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: Hillsongs policies are good, but are they followed is the question. 442 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes the only way to know that they're not being 443 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: followed is if whistleblower surface. And in the case of Hillsong, 444 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: New York, what we do have is the Louis Report, 445 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: which flagged up areas of concern involving pastas and church funds. 446 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: That report reveals a totally different picture from what the 447 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: Hillsong newsroom is reporting that there were definitely red flags. 448 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: There were misuse of PEX cards. These are rechargeable like 449 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: debit cards. Money can be pun on them and spent 450 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: by an employee of the church, and according to insiders, 451 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: these were used to pay for gifts, for clothing, for food, 452 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: and a According to some of the insiders, these expenses 453 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: were not reimbursed. Basically, in a normal church setting, when 454 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: an employee uses church funds for personal expenses, they're required 455 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: to reimburse it and the employee must provide receipts to 456 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: the church finance office. If they're not providing receipts, how 457 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: do you know if it's a personal expense or church expense? 458 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: And this was the big problem. One of the insiders 459 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: at Hillsong revealed that the receipts. In some cases it 460 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: didn't exist. It is very careless. It borders on criminal. 461 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: And the reason I can say that is when you 462 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: make these kind of personal spends on a church card 463 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: and you don't reimburse the church, then you're profiting off 464 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,719 Speaker 1: the church. This should be considered income. It's time exable income. 465 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: If it's not reported, are not reimbursed. And there were 466 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: other areas too, what's called self dealing. Very explains. Self 467 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: dealing occurs when you have a person that owns a 468 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: for profit company and also runs a nonprofit organization and 469 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: they do business with each other. This is not illegal 470 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: in the United States unless you excessively profit off the 471 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: nonprofit organization. So we see this often among televangelists. They 472 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: will own their own publishing company and they'll publish their 473 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: books their DVDs and sell them to their church or ministry. 474 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: And now if they're selling their book at full retail 475 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: price to their church or ministry, that's taking advantage of 476 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: the nonprofit. It should be discounted. It should be host 477 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: sale price. One of the problems in these type of 478 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: business relationships is a pastor can set up a company 479 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: and charge a consulting fee to his church or ministry. 480 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: A pastor can own the copyright of his sermons and 481 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: then license them to his church. In fact, Carl Lentz, 482 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: his dad is an attorney, Stephen Lenz. Stephen Lentz wrote 483 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: a book The Business of Church, and he advised pastors 484 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: on how to license intellectual property rights to their church. 485 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: There's all kinds of ways to make money off of churches. 486 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: This is just one example. In the case of Hillsong, 487 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: one of the pastors and his wife Can and Carla 488 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: Keating at Hillsong, New York City. They operated a coffee 489 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: shop and the hill Song had a Bible study group 490 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: meet there, and it was alleged that these PEX cards 491 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: were used in the course of their coffee shop business, 492 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: so that would be a clear conflict of interest. Kine 493 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: and Collacating told the lawyers their coffee shop was used 494 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: for the church meetings, and Kine believed he would have 495 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: used the church cod that but Karla said she was 496 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: unaware of a church cod that was used unless it 497 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: was for church catering. So these details matter. What about 498 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: the bigger picture? How was Hillsong East Coast spending the 499 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: money it raised? How much was spent on its primary purpose, 500 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: which is to reach and influence the world by building 501 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: a large, Christ centered, Bible based church. Here's Barry Bowen 502 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: again analyzing one of these reports. I was able to 503 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: determine that approximately seventy of the funds were spent on 504 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: the reported purpose of Hillsong. And this is really important 505 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: to understand. There's charity Navigator that advised donors to look 506 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: for organizations that at least seventy five percent of all 507 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: funds are spent on the purpose of the organization. If 508 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: you're spending more than on fundraising, you're not spending on 509 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: your purpose. If the reporting is accurate, then hill Song 510 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: is a good steward of the money that's given. However, 511 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: I have questions that I wonder if their documents are 512 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: actually accurate, if there are a proper representation at how 513 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: money is actually spent. For example, these PEX card abuses 514 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: are those properly reported? I doubt they were. And this 515 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: is the information that I would like to know about Hillsong. 516 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: How much is your chief financial officer paid? How much 517 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: are your head pastors paid? That kind of information is 518 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: critical for concerned donors. One of the things that we're 519 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: interested in is excessive compensation. We do not want nonprofit 520 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: leaders getting rich off of their tax exempt status. In 521 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: the next episode, l heads to Australia. This is where 522 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: the Hillsong Empire started and where founder Brian Houston has 523 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: been living a life fit for a preacher king, and 524 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: it is where a bomb is about to go off 525 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: under Hillsong finances as a whistleblower takes the church to court. 526 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: This is the closest that we've gotten yet to looking 527 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: at Hillsong's books, and this is just dynamite. The one 528 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: thing that anyone that's looked into Hillsong over the last 529 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: ten twenty years has been trying to find out is 530 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: how much money is there and where's it going