WEBVTT - S1: Ep 3 - Ashes to Ashes 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.800 Hi all, we have some exciting news to share. Paramount 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:07.560 Plus has turned Burden of Guilt into a docuseries. You 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.840 will get to meet the people involved, You'll hear from 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:13.840 the people who have never spoken before, and you get 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.079 to see where the story took place. We are so 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.600 proud and excited to share it with you. You can 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.120 stream it right now on Paramount Plus. 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:29.159 I felt very confident that the fractures we observed in 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.720 his head were not accidental, were not from a fall 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.880 from the crib. They had been inflicted by another individual, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:41.800 and this would meet the manner of death. Now, as homicide. 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:47.400 Pathologist doctor Stephen Dunnan is talking about an autopsy of 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.960 a baby, it was conducted almost twenty years after his death. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:01:04.400 I'm Nancy Glass. This is Burden of Guilt Episode three, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:05.800 Ashes to Ashes. 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.120 My daughter was almost two at the time, and I 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:12.880 remember she was trying to pick up a gallon of 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.399 milk and she didn't even lift that thing up off 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:15.920 the ground. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.280 This was the moment that galvanized everything for Tracy Raquel 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.920 when her little daughter, Goldie, attempted to pick up a 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.919 gallon of milk but couldn't lift it. Tracy Raquel knew 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.840 that she had not caused her baby brother, Matthew's death. 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.280 It simply wasn't possible that she, as a two year old, 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.320 had picked fifteen pound Matthew up and thrown him out 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.160 of his crib and onto the floor. But of course, 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.520 after years of being beaten down, she didn't trust her 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.960 own instincts, so she went to consult experts in the 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:55.280 medical field. Doctors reviewed Matthew's hospital file and concluded that 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.760 his injuries didn't happen the way his mother, Kathy said 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:04.240 they did. With this knowledge finally in hand, through pure perseverance, 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.840 after years of trying, Tracy Riquel finally attracted the attention 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.880 of someone in law enforcement. Jim Maybe, a forensic death 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.799 investigator into Cab County, Georgia, agreed to help her. 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.760 He was, I'd say, my lifeline. He rarely got that role. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.120 In former investigator Jim Maybe. 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.360 I took her case to doctor Joe Burton, who at 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.120 the time of the chief Medical Examiner for DECAM. Showed 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.600 him what we had. He says, can we investigate this? 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:35.040 He said absolutely. Now. 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.000 Doctor Joe Burton was a widely respected pathologist, so to 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.160 get his interest was a big deal. 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.639 He assigned me to do a couple of things. One 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.120 was to continue to interview Tracy again also find out 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:47.640 where the accident occurred into camp. 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.120 An investigation couldn't happen fast enough for Tracy Riquel. Jan 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.280 Barry Sandlin's possible parole from his sentence for armed robbery 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:01.800 was looming, and she was scared. She started pressing her mother, Kathy, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:03.720 to talk more about Matthew's death. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.440 I have probably asked Kathy everything under the sign, in 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.000 every possible way that would be sweet, and ask her 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:15.519 that would be forceful, accusations, everything you can imagine, anything 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:16.639 that would get her to talk. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.480 Tracy Riquel says that years ago, during a phone call 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:25.160 between her and her mother Kathy, Kathy made a shocking revelation. 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.880 She said, you just don't understand when you're in love 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.960 with someone that much, you'll do anything for somebody. We 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.160 just wanted to start over. We wanted a new life. 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.200 Now, for a second, you think, am I hearing this right? 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.120 What on earth does this mean? They wanted to start over? 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:45.240 Were the kids expendable? Racy Riquel was now in regular 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.960 contact with Jim. Maybe he wanted to get anything he 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.920 could on tape that was the one thing that would 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:53.040 help his investigation. 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:55.200 She's the one who said, you need to go and 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.200 get this recorder, and it's perfectly legal in the state 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.640 of Georgia. One person knows that you're being recorded and 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:01.880 the other one does it, so we need to do 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.680 this and send me everything you have. And that's how 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:05.160 it started. 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:11.160 Now, Kathy never repeated her statement about wanting to start over, 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.960 but she made other admissions while the recorder was rolling. First, 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.719 Tracy Riquel confronted Kathy about naming her as Matthew's killer. 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:21.840 In my horror. 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:23.800 All I feel is that I don't understand how I 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:25.680 can be offered up like that. It would seem to 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.799 me like someone would say, I don't know what happened. 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.200 I just found them this way. I don't know what happened. 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.760 Investigators listened to those recordings, and I wish we could 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:38.239 play them for you, but they don't exist anymore. The transcripts, however, 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.720 do so we use voice actors to recreate the conversation. 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.640 And here's what was discussed. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.839 Well, I guess from what I told them, that's what 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.280 they assumed happened. It's what I was led to believe. 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.560 Tracy Riquel also brought up an occasion that Kathy had 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.640 accused jan of killing Matthew. 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.880 Sheila said that she remembers hearing you have a fight 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.320 with him sometime after my's death at Anna's house in 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:05.120 Fate Street. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.600 Where you said I hate you you killed my child. 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.119 That was years later, maybe two years later, three years later, 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:12.920 I don't know. 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.599 That was a really odd response to Tracy Riquel's comment. 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.120 What difference would it make if it was two or 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:25.600 three years later? Tercy Raquel pressed Kathy on why she 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.120 hadn't tried harder to find out what happened to Matthew. 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:32.680 I mean, you never ever made an attempt to go 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.440 to the police. 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.240 If they had found anything that they could do to 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.800 prove it with, they would have arrested him. Nobody really knew. 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.000 Would it be easier for you to accept your child 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.560 being murdered or your child dying in an accident? Answer 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.880 that question for me, which would you have a harder 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.919 time with and when people are telling you that it 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:55.719 was an accident. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.120 In other moments on the call, Tracy Raquel tried to 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:00.440 show her mother some grace. 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.239 I firmly believed in my heart that Jane had frightened 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.680 you into saying that I was responsible for it. I 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:08.800 firmly believe that you knew and he either threatened to 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.200 hurt me or he threatened to hurt you, and he 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:12.200 scared the hell out of you. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.280 And that's why you didn't You didn't press it. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.919 No, through the years, he did many times convince me 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.599 he didn't do it. There were times when he would 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.679 cry when I questioned him about it, and he would 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.400 cry and say he didn't do it, and then like 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.159 a fool, A lot of times I fall into it, 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.520 just like I balled into him being sorry he beat 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.360 me up or whatever. How do you think that makes 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:36.200 me feel now? 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.920 Terracy also raised the subject of Jan's first wife, Nancy Tagetter. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.400 Jan moved in with Kathy, Matthew and Terca Riquel only 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.920 weeks after Nancy died by suicide, but the circumstances around 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.479 her death were very strange. Nancy had shot herself in 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.240 the stomach, and she was pregnant at the time. 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.760 But you don't think he was responsible for killing her? 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:03.440 Yes? 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.400 I do. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.960 Do you mean you actually think he pulled the trigger? 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.720 I don't know if he actually pulled the trigger or 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.000 if he talked her into pulling the trigger. But I 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.160 think either way he's responsible. 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.240 Jim Maybe listened to the tape of the call. It 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.760 was another brick in building a case for the district 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:31.400 attorney to consider. Maybe then said about acquiring the important 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:33.160 paperwork from nineteen seventy one. 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.640 Now, according to the Georgia Deaths Investigation Act, anytime a 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:42.000 child dies under those circumstances of autopicy has to be done. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.240 When Jim Maybe got his hands on the death certificate, 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.680 he was confused. It said the cause of death blunt 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.000 forced trauma to the head and indicated the cause of 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.080 that was a fall from bit. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.360 And I kept thinking to myself, well, how did the 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.920 coroner sign it out as an accidental net how did 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.840 he know how it occurred, what the circumstances were surrounding it. 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.559 After first being unable to locate an autopsy report, Jim 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.920 Maybe discovered that the Georgia Bureau of Investigation did do 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.320 an autopsy on Matthew the day after he died, on 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:20.600 December twenty eighth, nineteen seventy one. It was performed at 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.760 the funeral home. Matthew's death certificate was signed by a 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:29.000 corner now a corner is just an elected official who 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.960 establishes the cause of death when a person does not 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.959 die of natural causes, and in nineteen seventy one, it 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:40.520 wasn't too hard to qualify for the position. Former District 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:41.160 Attorney j. 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.680 Tom Morgan the only way to be a coroner was 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.200 to get more votes to the nets person and to 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.800 have a high school education and to have no felony convictions. 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.040 It did not require a medical degree or any expertise 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.680 in determining cause of death. Usually the coroners, particularly here 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.760 in the South, were employees or owned funeral homes. In fact, 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.520 a lot of autopsies were actually done in funeral homes 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.280 in the South in the nineteen seventies. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.880 I found out that mister Harvey, who was the coroner 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.520 back then, was still in the area and his decision 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.640 to make it an accidental death went without any kind 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:21.160 of police investigation that we could find, and we really 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:22.920 didn't get an answer as to why he signed it 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:27.000 out as an accidental death. He was determined by the family, 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.440 not officially or not by an investigation, that Tracy caused 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:31.959 that death. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.440 As Jim May worked the investigation, he knew he had 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.560 to go visit the place where everything went down Matthew's bedroom. 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:44.679 We didn't even know if the apartment complex were it 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.000 occurred even existed anymore. 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.400 And twenty six years later those apartments were still there 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:52.480 and pretty much unchanged. 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.120 We wanted to look at the flooring because we wanted 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.160 to see what kind of impact this fall from the 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.960 crib would have had or floor us as the corpor 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.679 and the resident manager was extremely helpful with us. He 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:08.280 explained that back then the floor was a wooden floor, 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:10.400 but it was covered by a pretty thick carpet. 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.679 Every apartment in Atlanta head shag carpet. All we needed was 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:15.439 saw a lot of lamp and all my brothers on 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:17.360 the eight track and we would be ready to go. 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.640 Jim maybe also had questions about how Tracy Raquel would 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:24.760 even get access to baby Matthew in his crib. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.240 We talked to her mother about the crib and like 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.560 all cribs just got one side that you can raise 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.480 up or down, and even when it was down, Kathy said, 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.000 it's hard ford to reach over and get the child 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.920 and get it out of herself. It took that information 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:40.240 back to doctor Burton. 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.400 Doctor Joe Burton, the lead medical examiner reviewing the case 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.920 died in twenty nineteen. A close colleague worked on the investigation. 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:54.160 I'm Stephen Dunton. I'm a forensic pathologist. I currently work 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.000 for the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences and have so 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.600 for ten years. Prior to that, I spent more than 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.800 twenty years as a medical examiner here in the metropolitan 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:05.800 Atlanta area, including. 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:06.200 De Camp County. 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.000 Doctor Burton asked doctor Duncan to look at the medical 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.120 records to see what he could gather from the report 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.880 written the night Matthew was admitted to the hospital. 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.840 Everyone who was there when Matthew died in our family knows. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:25.760 The surgeon came out and said the injury to his 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.439 head was as if you took your fist and put 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:29.400 it through a watermelon. 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.880 The skull fractures in this child were far too extensive, 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:41.760 too serious, too complicated to have resulted from him simply 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.520 dropping from no more than about four feet and probably 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.679 less than that without having been propelled in some fash 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.720 two year old would not have been able to add 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:59.200 any momentum to his flight through the air. As a 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.520 much larger person who could actually throw a child or 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.920 take a child and slam a child down might be 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:07.840 capable of doing. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.679 While the medical examiner's team was evaluating records, Jim Maybe 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.800 was pressing Kathy to write down everything she remembered about 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.400 December twenty seventh, nineteen seventy one, and to tercy Quel's surprise, 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.280 Kathy provided a lot more insight into what occurred in 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.240 the apartment the night Matthew died. 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.080 Missus Allman told us when she first rout, her and 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.839 Tracy had gone chopping and also done some laundry. Jan 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.120 was the only one there watching this child, and she 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.160 went in, like any mother want to go in check 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.560 on the child. And he wouldn't allow it. And I 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.559 say he wouldn't allow it. He talked her out of it, 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:50.240 but did send Tracy inside. They got the groceries in 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.199 in the laundry, and when she got the laundry, which 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:53.640 was the last thing they had to get out of 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.080 the car, she checked on the child. This is when 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.559 she discovered he was unresponsible based on that. It just 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:03.760 run above a lot of red flags. I didn't understand 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.200 why he didn't want her to see the child or whatever. 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:07.640 That doesn't make him a killer. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.480 In a follow up with Kathy, Jim got even more 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:13.679 information out of her. 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.080 When I talked to Kathy maybe a week or so later, 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.480 she believed that Jan had assaulted his child. 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.280 It was the first time Kathy had told law enforcement 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:31.400 directly that she believed Jan killed Matthew. Jan, not Tracy Riquel. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.680 What was happening? Why was she speaking up Now? 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:37.720 We told her some of the things that we had 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.079 discovered and what we believed, and they were going to 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.440 get the death certificate change from accidental to house side. 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.920 Now she can't say this, but she gave me the 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.320 impression I'm going to cooperate with them because the next 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.680 step is the police, and I ain't going to jail 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:52.400 for Jan Salmon. 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.440 Now Kathy was pointing the finger at Jan. If she 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.160 really thought her ex husband had killed her baby, why 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.559 did she stay with him for years and have another 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.600 child with him? But once Cathy started talking to Jim, 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:13.280 maybe she kept talking. We mentioned Jan's first wife, Nancy 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.800 Tigeter earlier when we were talking about the recorded call 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.560 between Tracy Riquell and Kathy, And as I mentioned earlier, 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:26.240 Nancy tragically committed suicide. Then just weeks later, Jan moved 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.040 in with Kathy. Well, here's the rest of the story. 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.640 When Nancy was sixteen, she had a baby boy with 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.520 Jan and they got married. Nancy Jan's marriage was on 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.280 the rocks on the night Nancy died. They had been 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.640 separated and Nancy was several months pregnant with another man's child, 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.960 but she wanted to work it out with Jan and 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:51.040 stay married. Jan wanted to end the marriage. As Jan 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.400 pulled up to Nancy's apartment that night, she was on 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:55.880 the phone with her best friend. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:01.680 My name is Jackie Wilson. It was Jackie Jenkins back then. 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.520 I met Nancy the first time at the swimming pool 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:12.320 in Doraville. I was twelve or thirteen, and we were 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.800 friends there on and off all the way through school 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:17.280 and after high school. 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.160 Like Kathy, Nancy fell head over heels for Jan. He 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.720 was a bad boy, exciting and unpredictable. 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.960 I'm just naming. Jan was crazy. Nancy was in love 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:29.680 with a crazy man. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.760 But once they were married, Jan's true nature surfaced. 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.080 There was times an eight slap and I couldn't take that. 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.880 Nancy was expecting to meet Jan at her apartment the 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.880 night she died, hoping for a reconciliation. She wanted to 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.400 stay together for the sake of their little boy. The 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:53.320 next morning, Nancy was found dead with gunshot wounds to 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.760 the abdomen and her body wrapped in a sheet. A 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.480 suicide note lay close by. She was only nineteen. 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.400 I had a real difficult time accepting the fact that 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.880 Nancy had taken her own life. She had appointments, she 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.200 had things she was going to do, and I had 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:12.720 talked with her on the phone that night. 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:14.360 I talked with. 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:19.080 Her on the phone until she said, I think Jan's here. 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:26.840 Jan Sandlin, in my book, either killed her himself or 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.320 cost to happen, because to my life, he was the 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.760 last person that actually saw her. Because when we're on 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.920 the phone, she said, don't Jan's here, there's somebody in 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.240 the car with him. I don't know who was in 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:44.040 the car with him. But the next day she was dead. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.200 How exactly does a dead person wrap herself up in 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.640 a sheet after she dies? But there was also a 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:56.680 suicide note. 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.720 Nancy was a teenager and when things didn't go right, 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:05.840 she would write little notes that people might interpret as 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.560 a suicide note. Because she was hurting so bad. She 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.680 wrote a bunch of notes like that that noe Jan 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.159 could have picked up from anywhere and put there. She 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:17.640 wasn't suicidal. 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:23.240 Jim Mabe was also skeptical that Nancy died by shooting herself. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.600 Kathy told Jim that jan wanted to quote get rid 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:29.440 of her end quote. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.280 Think about it, and you want to commit suicide. You 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.760 want it over as fast as you can. To shoot 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.480 yourself in the abdomen for suicide, don't need to make sense. 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:39.800 That really red flag to me. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.680 Tracy Raquel learned something new and shocking from Kathy's statements 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.879 to investigators. She learned that she was also injured that 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:50.880 day Matthew died. 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.000 She to take me to the doctor because I had 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.439 fallen down a concrete flight of stairs supposedly and was 0:17:57.480 --> 0:17:58.840 bleeding from both my ears. 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.639 I wonder if she actually filled down the steps or 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.879 that's what they say and she was actually pushed. 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:09.439 Tracy Quell's medical records revealed that these injuries were not minor. 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.920 She was treated for bruises and a bleeding ear. 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.000 I feel like they just wanted to get rid of 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.440 both of us. Just like she said in her comments, 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.919 we just wanted to start over. We didn't want to 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.480 do this, wanted to have our own life together and start. 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.560 Over, but Jim maybe had some empathy for Kathy. 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.920 Because of Jan's history suspicions of things that he had done. 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.240 I believe in my heart she was afraid of Jam. 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:35.119 Every time you look around, he's involved in him on 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:41.120 an injury or somebody, or death or somebody. You got 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.840 a choice, blame your daughter. Your daughter not gonna kill you, 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.240 and Jan Samuel'll stay off your bag. Go ahead and 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.119 tell the truth that Jan Samlon did it and you 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.480 could be dead. With his background, that's not out of 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:58.479 the realm. That doesn't justify what she did. I'm not 0:18:58.560 --> 0:18:59.840 saying it, but I'm not going to judge her. 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.479 Kathy has always been steadfast that she believed what happened 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:08.479 to Matthew was an accident, and this is documented in 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:13.119 court testimony and in her statement to investigators. We should 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:17.760 say there's no evidence that Kathy actually believed that Jan 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:24.960 killed Matthew and covered it up. According to the conversations 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.840 Kathy had with Tracy Riquel that are part of the 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:32.080 case file, Kathy has no memory of telling police her 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.600 two year old was responsible. In fact, in the wake 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.960 of Matthew's death, she has no real memory of anything. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.040 I don't even remember making that statement. What that paper 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.679 says is wrong about a lot of things. I don't 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:48.879 know what is on that paper. 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:50.800 You mean it is wrong. 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.320 I cannot tell you anything I said or did that 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.000 entire two weeks afterwards. 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.240 I mean, is that because of Matt's death? But the 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.280 Jan scare you, I have no idea. 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.720 All I can tell you is that I was in shock. 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:11.400 I don't know what was going on. What I can 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.600 remember him telling me later sometime somehow that got in 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.040 my head and I wasn't allowed to talk to anybody else, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:20.600 So I guess it came from him. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.040 What do you mean, you aren't allowed to talk to 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:23.840 anybody else? 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:28.080 I was in seclusion with him for two weeks. I 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.600 don't know what the hell happened during those. 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.440 Two weeks with Jan. You were in seclusion? 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.720 Yeah, where, I don't know. 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.840 I don't understand. I mean, what do you mean, I 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.840 don't know you were locked up somewhere. 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.199 I assume I was at the apartment with him, but 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:48.800 I don't know. 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.240 The medical examiner's team went to see District Attorney J. 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:55.080 Tom Morgan. 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.840 It is very rare for a medical examiner on his 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.399 or her own to come see us and say, you 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.480 need to take a hard look at this case. Tracy's 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:11.120 story was unbelievable. Doctor Burton basically said, there's no way 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.760 in hell that this child died from these types of 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.280 injuries from a shortfall from a crib onto a shack floor. 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.920 After reviewing the recordings with Kathy, the medical records, and 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:27.120 the medical examiner's investigation, Morgan felt like he had enough 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:28.399 to go to a grand jury. 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.240 The grand jury decided that there was probable call sufficient 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.320 evidence to go forward with the prosecution of Jan Simon 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.600 for the murder of Matthew Goulder. 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:40.800 But for a trial they would need more than probable cause. 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:42.800 Doctor Stephen Duntan. 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:48.679 We spoke about the need and the propriety of seeing 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.800 these injuries with our ownknives and evaluating them on ourselves 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:55.280 rather than relying on other people's documentation. 0:21:56.040 --> 0:22:00.720 After many discussions, Doctor Burton, Joe Tomy, we can assume 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.160 the body, but there was nothing going to be there. 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.080 But at the same time, if we don't do it, 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:07.920 you're going to pay the price for it. 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.480 The sad truth is bodies decomposed. We bury bodies so 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.040 that over the years they become part of the earth 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.240 again and Matthew's tiny body had been in the ground 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.000 for more than a quarter of a century. It was 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.040 likely they would find very little bones. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:31.359 Perhaps the defense rightfully so would say to the jury 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:34.200