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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of couch

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Speaker 1: Talks on You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat.

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Speaker 1: I am the host, and if you don't know what

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Speaker 1: couch Talks is, it is the special bonus episode of

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy that comes out every single week where

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Speaker 1: I Kat answer questions that you guys send to me

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Speaker 1: and you can send those to Katherine at therapy podcast

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Speaker 1: dot com now per usual, even though I'm answering your

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Speaker 1: questions here and I am a therapist, this podcast does

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Speaker 1: not serve ever as a replacement or a substitute for

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Speaker 1: any actual mental health services. However, I always hope that

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Speaker 1: these episodes can be helpful and still a tool in

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Speaker 1: your toolbox to whatever journey you are on now on

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Speaker 1: couch Talks, when people send in their questions, I just

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Speaker 1: like to remind everybody they all please remain anonymous and

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Speaker 1: I will not read anything that you do not want

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Speaker 1: me to read. I will read the email unless you

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Speaker 1: tell me that there are certain parts you don't want

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Speaker 1: me to read. However, I don't reveal your name. Nobody

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Speaker 1: is going to know that this is you unless you

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Speaker 1: are giving super detailed information in the email, and don't

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Speaker 1: tell me not to read that. Now we're going to

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Speaker 1: do one question, one email, like we usually do. With

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Speaker 1: the email I got today. The listener that wrote in

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Speaker 1: I really appreciated let me know before they went into

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Speaker 1: the question that there were certain things they did not

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Speaker 1: want me to read, and they highlighted or I think

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Speaker 1: put them in parentheses in staid please don't read this part.

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Speaker 1: And so if you want to give me more context

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Speaker 1: or just want to share something with just me know

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Speaker 1: that I'm not going to read those parts in the email,

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Speaker 1: and I really appreciate that extra little detail you put

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Speaker 1: in there. This listener sent in two questions. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to just answer the first one at this time because

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Speaker 1: it's a longer question and I have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a longer answer, and I want to give this

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Speaker 1: specific question the time it deserves, especially because this is

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Speaker 1: a topic that we've actually talked here on the podcast

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Speaker 1: before about and that a lot of people are going

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Speaker 1: to be able to relate to, even if this specific

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Speaker 1: situation isn't exactly their situation. So I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: the email and then we are going to talk about it. Hey, Kat,

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Speaker 1: for some context, I grew up in the Catholic church,

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Speaker 1: and I still attend Mass on a semi regular basis,

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Speaker 1: as its nostalgic encourages community and a great reminder that

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Speaker 1: the universe is so much bigger than me. Admittedly, I

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Speaker 1: have a complicated relationship with religion and I am constantly

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Speaker 1: questioning and doubting, flip flopping back and forth between. This

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Speaker 1: is helpful for my mental health and well being and

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Speaker 1: this is not helpful at all. During an episode of

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Speaker 1: depression and extreme anxiety and panic earlier this year, my

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Speaker 1: parents suggested that I see a faith healer at the

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Speaker 1: church I grew up in. My husband and I were

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Speaker 1: completely at a loss. I couldn't function properly during the day.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't work, I couldn't go to the grocery store,

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Speaker 1: couldn't sleep, couldn't focus on anything, and I was having

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Speaker 1: frequent panic attacks and breakdowns. This faith healer is well

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Speaker 1: respected in our community and there are numerous stories of

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Speaker 1: him healing people, mostly physical and also with mental and

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Speaker 1: spiritual ailments. I trusted my parents in this recommendation. They

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Speaker 1: had met him before, and I trusted the church I

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Speaker 1: grew up in. The healer and his two assistants sat

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Speaker 1: with me for about an hour and a half, asking

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Speaker 1: me about my current state, which was very depressed, not

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Speaker 1: seeing the purpose of living, and asking me about past traumas,

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Speaker 1: which included three unwanted sexual encounters. They said that the

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Speaker 1: devil was very good at convincing us that we shouldn't live,

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Speaker 1: and that the ruptures caused by past traumas have allowed

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Speaker 1: evil spirits to inhabit my body and mind, telling me

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Speaker 1: lies and causing my depression. They then proceeded to take

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Speaker 1: my hands and pray with me, speaking in tongues and

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Speaker 1: using scripture to ask God to drive out the demons

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Speaker 1: that were in me. Apparently there were three, one for

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Speaker 1: each of my traumas. At the end of the meeting,

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Speaker 1: they urged me to go to confession and told me

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Speaker 1: I have a responsibility to ensure my husband is baptized

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Speaker 1: in the near future. I walked out of the meeting

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Speaker 1: wishing I felt more hopeful than I did. In reality,

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Speaker 1: I felt scared and unsettled and completely confused. The end

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Speaker 1: of the meeting really hit a nerve. This was a

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Speaker 1: major reason I constantly felt guilt in my religion. It

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Speaker 1: feels as though I'm never doing everything completely right by God,

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Speaker 1: and I need to do more always in order to

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Speaker 1: inte protect myself and my loved ones from all the

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Speaker 1: evil in the world. I do think that this was

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Speaker 1: all done in good faith and that these people were

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Speaker 1: only helping in the ways they know how, but I

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Speaker 1: have many mixed feelings about the experience. Finally, for my

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Speaker 1: question for you, how do you know when to trust

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Speaker 1: religion and spirituality when it comes to mental health issues?

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Speaker 1: How do you know if the things going on in

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Speaker 1: your head are due to the in quotess battle of

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Speaker 1: good and evil or just a matter of chemical imbalance.

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Speaker 1: I am so confused, and I don't know who to

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Speaker 1: trust or how to even distinguish what is in quotes

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Speaker 1: real and what's not in my own body. I found

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Speaker 1: it really difficult to establish a balance between taking control

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Speaker 1: of my mental health and in quotes, surrendering it all

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Speaker 1: to a higher power. How do you find that balance?

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Speaker 1: Slash is there one? Okay, so very good question, and

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate the background and what led you to

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Speaker 1: kind of where you are now. First and foremost, before

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Speaker 1: we get into this, I want to give a little

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Speaker 1: disclaimer here that while I do personally lean into a

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Speaker 1: certain religion, I want anyone listening to know that what

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Speaker 1: is right for one person does not need to be

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Speaker 1: right for everyone. And because of that, I cannot, as

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Speaker 1: a helper tell someone that what is right for me

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Speaker 1: is right for them, and I can't also tell them

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Speaker 1: what is right or wrong for them. I know what

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Speaker 1: feels the most right for me right now in my life,

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Speaker 1: and my hope is individually we all get to make

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Speaker 1: those decisions and adapt adopt a belief system that is

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Speaker 1: the most right for you individual, wherever they also are

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Speaker 1: in their lives in that moment. So that means I

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Speaker 1: can't exactly answer this email as succinctly, as and easily

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Speaker 1: as I wish, but we are still going to try,

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Speaker 1: and we're still going to talk about it. So I

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Speaker 1: want to first focus on this one part where you said,

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Speaker 1: how do you know if the things going on in

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Speaker 1: my head? Or how do I know if the things

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Speaker 1: going on in my head are due to the battle

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Speaker 1: of good and evil or just a matter of chemical imbalance?

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Speaker 1: And I don't know that we actually have a definite

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Speaker 1: answer to this, and my impulse is to ask, well,

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Speaker 1: could it be both? Like could it be one of

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Speaker 1: those things where it's not either or it's both and

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Speaker 1: what is leading us to feel like we have to

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Speaker 1: pick one or the other, whether or not spiritual warfare

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Speaker 1: has a role in mental illness. If we have treatments

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Speaker 1: in medication that can help alleviate the symptoms, can we

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Speaker 1: use them? Is that okay? Would that be allowed? Like?

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Speaker 1: What things come up when we sit with both of

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Speaker 1: those things being able to coexist at the same time.

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Speaker 1: I'm a firm believer that both faith and science can coexist.

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Speaker 1: And I also am a firm believer that both prayer

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Speaker 1: and therapy can be beneficial. They both have their own

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Speaker 1: benefits to them that cannot be completely replaced by the other.

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Speaker 1: And this actually reminds me of a little metaphor story

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Speaker 1: that someone shared with me while working at my first

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Speaker 1: job as an intern, as a therapist intern. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a very common story, so it might be

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Speaker 1: something that you've heard before, but I want to share

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Speaker 1: it here just in case anybody listening hasn't. And this

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Speaker 1: actually reminds me of a little metaphor story that someone

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Speaker 1: shared with me while working at my first job as

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Speaker 1: an intern as a therapist intern. And I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is a very common story, so it might be something

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Speaker 1: that you've heard before, but I want to share it

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Speaker 1: here just in case anybody listening hasn't. And it was

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Speaker 1: about this guy. There's this man who lived in a

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Speaker 1: town that had experienced and was going to experience this

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Speaker 1: huge flood. And as people were evacuating, because you know,

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Speaker 1: the news comes on, they're like, get out the weather.

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Speaker 1: People are like the storm's coming and all that. As

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Speaker 1: people were evacuating and people were making plans to leave,

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Speaker 1: this particular man refused to leave with his friends and family,

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Speaker 1: and he was very adamant about staying in his house

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Speaker 1: and he said, I'm not leaving because God is going

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Speaker 1: to save me. So after everybody had already left and

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Speaker 1: after the storm had come, he eventually was forced to

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Speaker 1: the roof of his house. So the water was rising,

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Speaker 1: he couldn't stay in the house. He had to climb

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Speaker 1: into the roof of his house. And while he was there,

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Speaker 1: a boat came along looking to rescue anybody who was

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Speaker 1: not able to escape the storm in time. So when

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Speaker 1: this guy was approached by the rescue team, the man

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Speaker 1: refused again to leave, and he refused to get in

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Speaker 1: the boat and stated, God's going to save me. So

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Speaker 1: hours go by, and the water continues to rise, and

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Speaker 1: eventually a helicopter starts scanning the area and finds this man.

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Speaker 1: So the helicopter comes around and they are offering a

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Speaker 1: last stitch effort to save anybody who's still stranded in

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Speaker 1: that area. And when this man was approached by the

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Speaker 1: helicopter offering to rescue him, he replied again, I'm okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say right here, God is coming to save me.

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Speaker 1: So needless to say, this man drown and when he died,

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Speaker 1: and when he met God, when he entered heaven, the

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Speaker 1: first thing he asked God was you know God? I

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Speaker 1: prayed and I prayed and I prayed, and I put

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Speaker 1: all my faith into you. So I'm really confused. Why

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Speaker 1: didn't you save me? Like? Why did you just let

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Speaker 1: me die? And God replied, I gave you plenty of

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Speaker 1: time and notice to evacuate. I sent you a boat,

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Speaker 1: and I also sent you a helicopter, So what more

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Speaker 1: were you looking for? I share this story because I

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Speaker 1: do think, per usual, we want to draw very thick

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Speaker 1: lines between trusting in God and having faith and receiving

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Speaker 1: his gifts and blessings. And if God is greater of

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Speaker 1: all the things. If that's a truth that is in

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Speaker 1: your faith and religion, is there a way that we

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Speaker 1: can accept the minds that he created as well, that

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Speaker 1: have been also made possible to create such medications and

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Speaker 1: treatments and do research that has given us these resources

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Speaker 1: and ways to heal using these things. Can we accept

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Speaker 1: that as a gift from God? Like in this story,

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Speaker 1: the boat, the helicopter, the weather forecasting people giving us

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Speaker 1: this time to evacuate, those can be looked at as

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Speaker 1: gifts from God. Hey, this is God saying, hey, I

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Speaker 1: want to save you. Here you go. You get to

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Speaker 1: actually choose if you want it or not. But I'm

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Speaker 1: going to offer this to you. And you can look

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Speaker 1: at that the same way with medical treatments and mental

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Speaker 1: health treatments. You know, if your religion believes that all

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Speaker 1: things come from God, then God has created these minds

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Speaker 1: that then have been able to make all of these

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Speaker 1: strides and all these advances in treatments of different kinds

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Speaker 1: of diseases and health conditions and all of that. And

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Speaker 1: so when they come up with a solution to a problem,

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Speaker 1: are you allowed to accept that as a gift from God.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be either God speaks to you

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Speaker 1: directly and comes down from the heavens above and heals

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Speaker 1: you with the palm of his hand, or this scientist

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Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with creation or any of that,

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Speaker 1: or God's goodness gives you a medication. It doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to be one or the other. And again, this is

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Speaker 1: a very personal matter, and the resolve is also allowed

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Speaker 1: to look very different for each human. So I'm offering

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Speaker 1: these options, like would it be available to think of

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Speaker 1: these as things that co exist together and feed off

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Speaker 1: of each other versus one way as right and one

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Speaker 1: way as wrong. I'm just offering that as a idea,

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Speaker 1: like could that be something that is allowed to live

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Speaker 1: in the space that you are living in when it

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Speaker 1: comes to your own faith in religion? And I mean

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Speaker 1: that means I don't necessarily have a true answer of

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Speaker 1: how to differentiate the two. I would really just encourage

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Speaker 1: you to identify what makes first of all, separating the

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Speaker 1: two so important, and is their ability for them to coexist.

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Speaker 1: If so, what would it be like to sit with that? Now?

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Speaker 1: The other thing that you said that I want to

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Speaker 1: take a second to talk about is the part you

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Speaker 1: so I find it really difficult to establish a balance

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Speaker 1: between taking control of my mental health and surrendering it

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Speaker 1: all to a higher power. Again, this is a very

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Speaker 1: like distinct, polarizing thing that you're talking about. There is

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Speaker 1: one thing over here on one side of the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: and then this other thing lives on and completely other

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Speaker 1: side of the spectrum. And I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: always is the way that it needs to be. So

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Speaker 1: I think this is where we get to really break

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Speaker 1: down what surrendering to a higher power really looks like

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Speaker 1: and what that means to you. Again, this gets to

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Speaker 1: be different for every person. This reminds me in this

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Speaker 1: particular sentence, reminds me of the twelve Steps of AA

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Speaker 1: Alcoholics Anonymous, and the first three steps in particular. So

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Speaker 1: I want to read those three steps. So step one

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Speaker 1: we admit we are powerless over alcohol and that our

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Speaker 1: lives have become unmanageable. Step two, then is we have

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Speaker 1: come to believe that a power greater than ourselves could

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Speaker 1: restore us to sanity. And then step three is we

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Speaker 1: have made a decision to turn our will in our

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Speaker 1: lives over to the care of God as we understand him.

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Speaker 1: And again here I'm going to challenge the same idea

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Speaker 1: that I was talking about earlier. Can these all be connected?

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Speaker 1: Can they co exist together? Because taking control of our

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Speaker 1: mental health can mean acknowledging that there is something that

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Speaker 1: needs to be addressed, that there is something that I,

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Speaker 1: on my own cannot control and manage by myself and

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Speaker 1: myself alone, which is very connected to this first step

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Speaker 1: that says we have admitted to ourselves that we are

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Speaker 1: powerless over alcohol. You can put anything in that space

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Speaker 1: of alcohol, and that our lives have become and unmanageable,

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Speaker 1: so we cannot control this on our own. And through that,

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Speaker 1: through acknowledging that, we get to then acknowledge that there

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Speaker 1: are powers higher than ourselves, higher than our own single

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Speaker 1: being that can help us with those things, which speaks

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Speaker 1: to the step two. We've come to believe that a

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Speaker 1: power greater than our self selves can restore us to sanity.

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Speaker 1: So what's interesting is that higher power can be anything.

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Speaker 1: It can be God as one knows him in the

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Speaker 1: Christian sense. It can be a God that someone knows

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Speaker 1: and understands through a different religious sense or faith. That

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Speaker 1: higher power can be a group of people, It can

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Speaker 1: be a team of professionals. The higher power is a

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Speaker 1: power greater than yourself. It can be the universe, etc.

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Speaker 1: You see where I'm going here. A very very powerful

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Speaker 1: part of this here is that we are acknowledging that

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Speaker 1: we can't do this alone. However, we have faith that

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Speaker 1: there is something out there that can help us, and

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Speaker 1: then we get to allow ourselves to trust, and in

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Speaker 1: that we can allow ourselves to reach out to that

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Speaker 1: higher power and allow ourselves to trust that that thing

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Speaker 1: can lead me where I cannot see. So it doesn't

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Speaker 1: just have to be me alone figuring out by myself.

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Speaker 1: It can be me trusting a power greater than me,

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Speaker 1: some that has more power than me and this situation,

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Speaker 1: and I then can allow myself to trust them and

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Speaker 1: let them lead me where I feel a little bit blind.

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Speaker 1: Surrendering to a higher power also just does not mean

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Speaker 1: go to church and pray, right. I think that sometimes

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Speaker 1: in a very simple context, we might take that, or

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Speaker 1: we might hear that, but that's not what it means.

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Speaker 1: Just like go to church and pray. It can be

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Speaker 1: part of it, But I want you to think about

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Speaker 1: how you can actually expand on this idea. Caring for

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Speaker 1: your mental health doesn't just mean go to therapy, right

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Speaker 1: as a therapist. Caring for our mental health does not

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Speaker 1: just include going to therapy, and sometimes it doesn't include

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Speaker 1: that there are so many things outside of a therapist

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Speaker 1: office that are just as important to our well being

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Speaker 1: than going to that therapist's office, And so we get

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Speaker 1: to use more than just one thing when we care

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Speaker 1: about our mental health, and one of those things might

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Speaker 1: be religion, faith, prayer, church, all of those things. Also,

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Speaker 1: I feel it is really really important to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: believing in the power of prayer doesn't mean that you

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Speaker 1: don't and can't believe in therapy, and going to therapy

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you don't and can't think that a

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Speaker 1: God exists. Those things do not cancel each other out.

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Speaker 1: They are things that are allowed to work together with

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Speaker 1: each other. And one thing I will say as I

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Speaker 1: kind of close this out, I do think this is

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Speaker 1: a topic that might need to be talked about on

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Speaker 1: a longer, bigger episode as well. I know I did

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Speaker 1: an episode on specifically religious trauma and spiritual abuse with Julia,

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Speaker 1: who is a therapist at three Quarts Therapy, a couple

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Speaker 1: months ago, and one of the things that I want

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Speaker 1: to bring back that we talked about in that conversation

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Speaker 1: was how when religious and spiritual abuse occurs, it often

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Speaker 1: comes with the idea that there is only one way

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Speaker 1: of thinking, and thinking outside of that group's thought process

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Speaker 1: at all is very dangerous and evil. And faith is

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Speaker 1: called faith for a reason, it isn't called facts. So

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Speaker 1: there is always room for questions, There's always room for learning,

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Speaker 1: for new information, for curiosity and for wonder. Right, being

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Speaker 1: curious doesn't mean you don't believe something, or that you

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Speaker 1: are going against something, or that you are rejecting something.

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Speaker 1: It just is allowing your brain to kind of wrestle

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Speaker 1: with and create a better and more firm understanding of

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Speaker 1: what it is that you are choosing to believe. If

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Speaker 1: there is not space for us to understand what it

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Speaker 1: is that we choose to believe, then that sounds like

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Speaker 1: a very very scary place to me. And if you

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Speaker 1: find yourself in a religious space that suppresses wonder and

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Speaker 1: suppresses curiosity, I would highly, highly highly encourage you to

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Speaker 1: explore why that might be. Now, Like I said the

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Speaker 1: beginning of answering this question, this is a very sensitive

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Speaker 1: and very nuanced topic and it's allowed to be different

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Speaker 1: for everybody. So what I can't and won't do per

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Speaker 1: usual is give just simple answers to these things that

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Speaker 1: feel very confusing to you. What I can do is

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Speaker 1: invite you to have conversations with yourself and encourage you

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Speaker 1: to have conversations with unbiased people who want to help

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Speaker 1: you uncover what feels right for you versus what feels

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Speaker 1: right to them or a certain group of people. And

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Speaker 1: I want to say, you're asking really good questions. And

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Speaker 1: the only way to feel more grounded in what it

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Speaker 1: is that you believe and how you do handle whether

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Speaker 1: it is your faith or your mental health, and what

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Speaker 1: processes you find the most healing through. The only way

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Speaker 1: for you to really really feel more grounded and connected

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Speaker 1: to those things, infirm in those things is for you

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Speaker 1: to talk about them, to learn about them, and to

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Speaker 1: ask questions about them. And so you asking this question

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Speaker 1: is the best start that you can have in anybody

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Speaker 1: else who's also like, Yeah, that's something I've been struggling too,

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Speaker 1: Like how do we know the difference? Like where do

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Speaker 1: I draw the line? And doesn't mean that I don't

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Speaker 1: have faith if I want to do this, and if

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that I can't do this, if I

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Speaker 1: want to have faith. The best thing you can do

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Speaker 1: is voice those questions. And if the spaces that you're

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Speaker 1: in don't allow you to voice those questions, if it

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Speaker 1: becomes dangerous to do so, then I want you to

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Speaker 1: know that there are spaces that allow that, and I

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Speaker 1: encourage you to look for those and dig those out

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Speaker 1: as well, because you deserve to be able to be

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Speaker 1: in this, Like faith is very personal, you deserve to

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Speaker 1: be able to make that decision and understand it in

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Speaker 1: a way that makes sense to you. So thank you

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Speaker 1: for sending in this question and for the listener that

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Speaker 1: did send this question in. I will get to your

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Speaker 1: second question eventually. I just really wanted to hone in

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Speaker 1: on this one because it deserved a lot of space

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Speaker 1: instead does the other one deserves its own space? And

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to feel like I had to rush

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Speaker 1: through it or it felt like too much all at once.

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Speaker 1: So there it is. If you guys have any feedback, questions,

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Speaker 1: experiences that might be connected to this, or some suggestions

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Speaker 1: that you think might help this listener that you have

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Speaker 1: experienced yourself, you can send them to Katherine at you

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy podcast dot com. You can follow me at

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Speaker 1: you Need Therapy podcast and at Cat dot Defada on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: And I will be back with you guys on Monday

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Speaker 1: for another new episode. Until then, I hope you have

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Speaker 1: the day you need to have