WEBVTT - Managing up, with Melody Wilding 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:09.240 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:14.600 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.439 episode is going to be a longer one part of 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.239 the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.160 take their days from great to awesome and any advice 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.680 they have for the rest of us. So today I 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.840 am delighted to welcome Melody Wilding to the show. Melody 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.800 is the author of the brand new book Managing Up, 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.760 how to get what you need from the people in charge. 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:36.479 So Melody, welcome to the show. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:37.760 Thanks for having me. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:40.120 I'm excited to have you. So why don't you tell 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:41.640 our listeners a little bit about yourself. 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.239 Yeah, my background is as a therapist and that's how 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.680 I started my career. I teach human behavior at their 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.919 graduate level and am a executive coach, and all of 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.440 my work is really about helping people find what I 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.640 call your professional power position, where you are able to 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:02.160 manage your own psychology at work, your own insecurities, doubts, 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.520 hang ups, but you're also tackling the other side of 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.000 the equation, which is influencing other people's psychology. And that's 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:11.319 where managing Up comes in. 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:13.600 Yeah, well, I have to say I get a lot 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.480 of career books, leadership books, etc. Crossing my desk, there 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.440 are not that many that go in that direction, right, 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.520 that are about managing up. And so I wonder how 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.480 you came to this topic and why it was interesting 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:26.920 to you. 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.560 Yeah. Well, A big thing is because my first book, 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:33.840 Trust Yourself, came out in twenty twenty one, and that 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.640 was really the managing yourself side of the equation, and 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.320 what I kept hearing from people over and over, regardless 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.000 of what level they were at, whether they were more junior, 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:45.760 but most of my clients are mid to senior level, 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.200 and there was this theme of where all of my 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.480 confidence breaks down is when I have to deal with 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.840 people that feel more intimidating to me, or I'm in 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.240 those rooms or those conversations that feel higher stakes. And 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.639 there was this conce distant theme about managing up, dealing 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:07.120 with people in authority, navigating politics and power dynamics. And 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.160 so I think for so many of us, especially those 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.040 who are recovering people pleasers, this is not a skill 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.800 you're really taught yet. So much of it comes down 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:20.320 to being able to leverage your empathy, your emotional intelligence, 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:22.600 just channel it in a different way. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.160 Yeah. And one of the things you say in the 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.480 book is, I mean, this is not about, you know, 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.760 flattering your boss, like managing up is not purely about 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:31.360 making sure your boss thinks he or she is the 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:33.800 most awesome person in the world, and by reflection, you 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.680 are too. I guess maybe you can talk a little 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.120 bit more about what it truly means and why this 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:41.520 might be a benefit to someone beyond just you know, 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:43.600 getting in good with the people in charge. 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.160 Yeah. I appreciate you saying that, because that is most 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.000 of the time we hear managing up and we think 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.079 sucking up. Right, we equate those two things together. And 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.640 it makes sense because traditionally, for decades, that's how it 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:57.120 was portrayed. If you think about like Wolf of Wall 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.280 Street or any of those old movies, the person who's 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.200 managing up is the person who's running behind the boss 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.160 with the coffee order and just the yes person. And 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.720 the workplace has changed, but also what people want out 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.960 of work has changed, and so rather than having that 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:19.680 subordinate order taker mentality where it's just managing up is 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.080 me pleasing my boss, what I am advocating for and 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.240 when I see people do this successfully, they realize that 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.280 managing up is something you actually do for yourself. It's 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.399 something you do to create the conditions for your success, 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.600 whether that is pushing back, giving feedback up the chain 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.920 of command, being able to set limits and expectations around 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.320 the work, getting clarity around what success does look like 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.200 in your role so you can track against that, advocating 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.440 for your own advancement. Those are all things that put 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.680 you in the best position to get what you need 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:54.640 from the people who. 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:59.080 Are in charge. Absolutely, So you have ten conversations in 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.440 this book that you want people to have with with 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.120 their managers as part of managing this relationship. We're not 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:06.880 gonna be able to talk through all ten, unfortunately, but 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:08.560 I do want to talk about a few of them. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.880 Why don't we start with the alignment conversation? I guess 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:16.880 we truly want to know what the person sees as good, right. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:19.160 That's right, we have We have to start there because 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.080 if we don't know what we're trying to work towards, 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.280 we're we're going to be spinning our wheels, right, And 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.359 that's that's where when we fail to have the alignment conversation, 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.359 we feel frustrated. We feel like we're sidelined because unbeknownst 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.680 to us, we may not be working on what our 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.799 boss or the organization actually sees as important or promotable work. 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:42.839 And so that's why it is the first conversation in 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.599 the book. It is the most foundational. It also tends 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:49.080 to be an easy entry point because so much of 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.400 it is about observation, noticing what is important to your manager, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.679 but also asking good questions. So this is not having 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:01.400 to come right out and advocate for yourself. It's mostly 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:02.400 being a good listener. 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.719 And we're not starting with promote me. We're going first 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:08.360 in with being like, well, well, you can tell me 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:10.680 what are some good questions I should be asking a 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.160 manager in order to make sure that our visions of 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:14.239 success are aligned. 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:18.400 Correct. Yeah, ask a better question, you get a better answer. 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.200 And so instead of just saying, well, what are your priorities, 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.600 you might get a surface level answer from that. A 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.960 few of my favorites from that chapter. One of them 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.240 is what are the metrics your boss is discussing with you? 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.200 Because that gives you almost a very instant shortcut into 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.240 what your manager is being evaluated against and guess what 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:37.920 they're going to care a lot and give a lot 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.640 of attention to that. So that's one of them. Another 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.000 one is what does good performance look like in this 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.360 role to you? And then pause, let your manager answer 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.560 and say, great, what does great performance look like now? 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:53.720 And you may put a. 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.039 Timeframe around that over the next three or six months 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.800 or by the end of the year. But that one's 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:03.920 really useful because that comparison between good and great it 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:05.919 helps get under the hood of maybe some of the 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:11.560 unspoken or abstract, the intangible qualities that your manager or 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.720 the organization sees make someone a high performer that may 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.840 not come out in a roadmapping or KPI exercise. 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.200 Yeah, and you mentioned that earlier in your career at 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.520 one point, like sometimes all these alignment conversations or sense 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.720 it will surface some things like you've learned that your 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.880 role is expendable, And I guess that's good to know. 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:34.760 I mean, you went through that in your career at 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:35.560 one point. 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.119 Right, I did I talk about that in that first chapter. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.280 It is really something I kept hidden for many years 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.520 because I was embarrassed by it. And yes, I had 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.800 failed to have the alignment conversation deep enough. I had 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.200 surface level alignment with my manager, what are we accomplishing 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.919 day to day, week to week? But I really fail 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.880 to push further and say why is what I'm working 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.520 on important to the business and how is that being reported? 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.680 And what budget is going into this? I did not 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.680 dig deeper. I didn't have the courage to do it. Frankly, 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.440 I think maybe I was afraid of the answer now 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.080 as I reflect on it further, But yes, you know 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:17.040 when time came for cuts that my role was eliminated 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.040 because it wasn't core, was seen as a money pit. 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.080 And this is where, yes, we're not going to get 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.880 to all ten conversations today, but were some of the 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.600 other ones could save you. For example, if I had 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.760 been on top of having more of the visibility or 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.360 the networking conversation, then I might have had other advocates 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.360 behind my boss who knew about my skills beyond just 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.440 what I was doing on this one project, who may 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.440 have been willing to pull me over to their teams. 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:47.200 But I did it. So it's an extreme example of 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:47.840 what can happen. 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.480 Absolutely Well, we're going to take a quick ad break 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.360 and then I'll be back with more from Melody Wilding. 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.400 Well with Melody Wilding, who is talking about her brand 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.160 new book, Managing Up. We're learning how to deal with 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.720 the people in charge, not just to flatter them, but 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.640 in order to make sure that we get what we 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.560 want out of our careers. So we were talking about 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.080 aligning and making sure that what success looks for our 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.080 managers is informing what we are we are doing with 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.960 our time at work. Another one of these important conversations, though, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.400 is the style one. And I wonder how much of 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.080 clashes or people perceive as trouble and like I have 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.600 a terrible boss or something like that, is a different 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.760 style and how we can sort of suss out what 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:37.040 this person. 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.560 Is A lot to answer your question, A lot of 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.760 what I see conflict tension in the workplace does come 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.520 down to a difference in styles, because what we often 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.920 perceive as someone being difficult, you know, they're hard to 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.640 work with, is actually a we're talking past each other 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.839 in terms of our preferences, our approaches are values around 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.880 the work And so how can we susce this out? 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.560 You said, we need to really focus on decoding the 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.000 people around us, because when we can understand that, when 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.800 we can put their behavior in context and see this 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.600 is a product of how this person's lens and this 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.320 is not them trying to talk over me, railroad me. 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.839 We stop taking the work so personally and we can 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.440 make thoughtful adjustments to how we do that. So in 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.640 the book I talk about how, if you look at 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.600 a lot of the psychological research, communication styles really break 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:34.600 down into two dimensions. We have dominance, how assertive and 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.640 how much control does someone like? And we have associability 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:43.400 how much connection and rapport building interaction with other people 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.040 does the person want so higher low. You plot that 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.600 and we get again, broadly speaking, four different communication styles. 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.040 There are lots of different models for this. In the book, 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.880 I call them the four c's. And let's just take 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.080 a classic example. You may be working for someone who 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.920 in the book I would call a commander. This is 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:09.400 someone who is highly dominant and lower on sociability. These 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.439 people are very results oriented, they get to the point fast, 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.400 they move quickly. They really don't care as much about 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:20.520 people's feelings and consensus, and so sometimes they can seem 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:26.520 a bit dismissive and dominant. Frankly, now, you may be 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.280 someone who is what I would call a caretaker, the 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.640 exact opposite someone who is low on dominance and high 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:38.480 on sociability. You value stability, harmony, You do value relationships. 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.640 You want everyone to be happy and on board. You 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:46.040 care about morale. And a classic clash between these two 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.200 people is that the caretaker is someone who likes to 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.800 think before they act, who may need questions in advance, 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.960 who want to deliberate before they make a decision, whereas 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.040 the commander is someone who just wants you to get 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.240 right to the point. And so if you, as a 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.800 caretaker employee, are approaching your manager and you're leading with 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.240 all of the context and background and the theory and 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.800 how we got here, your manager is likely going to 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.040 cut you off and say that's great, I don't really care. 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:15.720 Can you tell me the main point of what you 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.560 need from me right now? And that's when you feel dismissed, 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.080 right you feel like I put so much time into 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.880 this and you're just cutting me off here. And so 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.400 not only again, we can put that into context and 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.320 not take it personally that my boss hates me and 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.120 I should just leave, but we can also just make 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.440 little tweaks. I call it flexing in the book flexing 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.719 your style. You don't have to change who you are 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.640 and what you value. You just change how you package 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.600 and present it. So instead of leading with all the context, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.080 you give your executives a summary or a few bullet points. 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.600 And at the end of the day, that benefits you 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.360 because you eliminate a lot of stress for yourself. Your 0:11:55.400 --> 0:12:02.520 message actually lands and again you're not you're not not 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.280 being true to yourself. You are still getting what's important 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.160 to you across but in a way they're actually going 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:08.480 to hear. 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:10.839 And I suppose that goes in the other direction too. 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:12.520 I mean you can envision the opposite where you have 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.880 more of a caretaker boss and you are very kind 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:16.800 of to the point kind of person. You're walking in 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:18.760 and saying I want this, and the person's like, WHOA, 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:20.719 can't do that right now? And because they want the 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.360 whole context, they want you to lead up to it, 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.120 like why or why am I asking for this? Like 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.600 what's the background? Who else has done this? They want 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.120 all that sort of information first. 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.560 That's exactly right. Yeah, and you can you can make 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.080 that thoughtful adjustment pretty easily, right, just just come with 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.679 a little bit of the background and that's it. 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.360 Yeah, really quick story gets them on the all at ease. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.240 It'll all be good. And part of this though, of course, 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.480 is you have to know yourself then, because I'm sure 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:48.880 there's plenty of people like, well, I don't know which 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.320 C I am? So how are we? How do we? 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:52.680 How do we go about figuring that out? 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.520 Yes? Well, in the book there's there's a much deeper 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.520 kind of diagnostic that it that it walks through all 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.080 of the different values, the strengths, the weaknesses of all 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.440 of the different types. But in that chapter there's one 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.080 exercise that actually is my favorite in the entire book. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.640 I call it the me Manual, which is you creating 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.920 a guide to yourself as a professional. This is something 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.720 you do first and foremost for yourself because most of 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.239 us never slow down to think about our own preferences. 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.400 It's just the water we swim in, so we've never 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.920 taken the time to articulate actually, how do I make decisions? 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:30.720 How do I like to receive feedback? What are some 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.840 of the maybe unspoken expectations I have about how quickly 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.760 work should be done or when when my hours on 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.360 or off are And so your MEW manual actually forces 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.440 you to get that down on paper. It's almost like 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:51.480 your operation manual to you it can absolutely be something 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.640 you share with your manager. I have people who are 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.760 in workplace cultures where they bring this to their boss 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.000 and they say, listen, I want to give you the 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.720 chee chet for getting the best performance out of me, 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.920 and we can talk through some highlights here. And I 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.400 have had people who say their boss is like, this 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:08.080 is pretty cool. 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:09.560 Can can I do this too? 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.960 Because I want to give this to my leader. So 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.280 you never know the reaction you might get, but at 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.520 the very least, it gives you a way to be 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.400 able to assert your preferences and your style when you 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:26.000 need to. So an example is, let's say that a 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.120 new project team is coming together. And I'm using this 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:34.200 example intentionally because managing up it, especially in today's workplace, 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.360 it doesn't always look like or rather I should say, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.120 it has to look like extending beyond just our direct supervisor, 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.240 because we're dealing with other people in power beyond our boss. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.240 And so let's say you have a new project team 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:52.000 coming together and there's other folks from cross functional divisions 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.920 who have more authority than you. What I always suggest 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.040 is that people at the beginning of those types of relationships, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.840 you are the one to say we are not always 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.240 going to see eye to eye. And when we have 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.680 those situations where we have to work through some sort 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.760 of conflict or tension or prioritization, how do you want 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:12.800 to approach that. What are the sorts of things you 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.000 weigh or that are important to you that I could 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.760 bring to that conversation, And you let that person respond, 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.560 and you say, that's so helpful for me. Here's what 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.800 I would really value, Here's how I tend to think 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.120 through these things. So it becomes more of a two 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.640 way street rather than you just becoming a chameleon who's 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:30.880 adapting to everybody else. 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:35.160 Absolutely. One of the other conversations is about boundaries, and 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.960 you know, this is a podcast about time management, and 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.120 so one of the things that obviously you know, keeps 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.160 people from managing their time in the way that they 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.400 want is that their manager is making demands that are 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.640 perhaps not helping in that regard. So let's say that 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.680 your boss is making demands that is making your life bad. 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.920 How can you approach them to get to a better place. 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.000 Yes, well, let's start with the fact that why is 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.720 this so hard for us? And because most of us 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.920 we're trying to straddle this tightrope of wanting to be 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.760 a team player, right, we need to create that perception 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.280 that we're collaborative. We step up when it matters, but 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.520 at the same time, we don't want to be a pushover. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.240 And I always say, you teach people how to treat you, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.920 and so those having those boundaries, we want to make 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.520 sure we're teaching people to respect our time and our bandwidth. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:33.200 And so start by asking questions, because so often, when 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.800 yet another thing is dumped on our plate, yet another 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:41.280 task is given to us, we go to one extreme 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.880 or the other. We go to the extreme of the 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.320 people pleaser passive, Sure, I'll get it done, I'll figure 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.480 out how to fit it in. Or we are already 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.600 at our limit and we snap back, and even if 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.520 it's our manager, we might say, I can't believe you're 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.760 giving this us. We're already underwater. So rather than those 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.400 two extremes, ask questions first by yourself a little bit 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.600 of time to calm down and get more details about 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.840 what's involved, because you may not always know on the 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:10.840 face of it, is this something I want to say 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.040 yes to or no? You can ask things like what's 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.680 driving the urgency here, what's the real deadline, Who else 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:19.600 is this visible to or who else is going to 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.760 be involved? Why did myself or my team come to 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.639 mind for this at first? And that can give you 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.080 a lot of good details to decide maybe this is 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.760 a good exposure opportunity or a skill building opportunity for 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.680 me or somebody else on my team. It can also 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.560 give you information about maybe I can redirect this to 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.360 somebody else. Maybe you find actually this is a process 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:45.760 that sits with operations or HR not with us, and 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.840 it gives you a leg to stand on to redirect it. 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.280 That's one thing is to ask questions first so you 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.639 know what's involved in that chapter. I give a number 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.200 of other different frameworks you can use for setting boundaries. 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.000 My favorite of those is the trade off approach, which 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.800 is essentially saying, I hear that you want both X 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.280 and Y done. In order to do that, then we 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.720 need to delegate or deprioritize something else. Are you okay 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:18.960 with that? When you do that, you're setting up a 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.320 Actually what's in what in research is called force choice, right, 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.520 you are setting up the illusion of control that someone 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.320 can only choose from A or B, and you're just 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.480 highlighting the reality that both of these things cannot be done, 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.320 but you're also approaching it from problem solving perspective. You're 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.359 not just shutting the request down and saying we can't 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.360 do that. You're approaching it to say, Okay, I understand, 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.320 I want to make both of these things happen, but 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:49.119 something has to give and subtly, especially if this is 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.080 someone who is maybe a level or two above you, 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.919 it's important to also signal that you do have some 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.000 recognition of the hierarchy. You are putting it back in 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.880 the other person's core to say, you make the call. 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.960 I can make a recommendation to say, based on from 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.800 where I said, I think we should prioritize A and 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.119 then pick up B in a couple of weeks. But 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.240 at the end of the day, it's your call. You 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.520 tell us what to do, and then we'll execute that. 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.080 Yeah, I love it. It's like what we do with toddlers. 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.119 You could wear the red pants or the blue pants. 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:21.680 It's like, I don't want to wear any pants. Well, 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:22.760 that's not really a choice. 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.200 Do you know what is so funny? As I have 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.040 been talking about the book, that example has been brought 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.240 up over I would say a dozen times now it's 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.119 so interesting what we do with. 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.080 Course choice with everyone. All Right, well, we're going to 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:37.639 take one more quick ad break and then we'll be 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:46.840 back with more for Melody Wilding. Well, I am back 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:48.760 with Melody Wilding, who is the author of the new 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.080 book Managing Up about getting what we want from the 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:56.760 people in charge. Let's talk about if it doesn't happen 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:02.399 the first time though, maybe you ask for something, you 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.919 try to have a conversation about boundaries or even about 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.720 you know, future promotions or anything like that, and you 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.200 get a lot of resistance. Is this just the way 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:13.800 it is? Or the things we can do to kind 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:15.440 of work through the resistance over time? 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.159 I would say there's always things you can do. Everyone 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.200 has their threshold of how much they are willing to do. 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.440 But in the book, I took a lot of care 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.920 to make sure that there was a lot of tips 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.680 and strategies for what do I do when this happens 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.679 or I get this objection or this type of resistance. 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.280 So a moment ago we were talking about boundaries and 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.280 a common form of resistance you may get there is 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.960 when someone tries to guilt trip you to say, oh, 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.040 but I thought you were a team player, I really 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.760 expected more from you. When that happens, you can actually 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.840 turn that assumption around and say, I'm bringing this up 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.160 because I am a team player, because I do care 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.200