1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: take their days from great to awesome and any advice 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: they have for the rest of us. So today I 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: am delighted to welcome Melody Wilding to the show. Melody 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: is the author of the brand new book Managing Up, 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: how to get what you need from the people in charge. 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: So Melody, welcome to the show. 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 12 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you. So why don't you tell 13 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: our listeners a little bit about yourself. 14 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, my background is as a therapist and that's how 15 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: I started my career. I teach human behavior at their 16 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 2: graduate level and am a executive coach, and all of 17 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: my work is really about helping people find what I 18 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: call your professional power position, where you are able to 19 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: manage your own psychology at work, your own insecurities, doubts, 20 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: hang ups, but you're also tackling the other side of 21 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: the equation, which is influencing other people's psychology. And that's 22 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: where managing Up comes in. 23 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I have to say I get a lot 24 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: of career books, leadership books, etc. Crossing my desk, there 25 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: are not that many that go in that direction, right, 26 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: that are about managing up. And so I wonder how 27 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: you came to this topic and why it was interesting 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: to you. 29 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, A big thing is because my first book, 30 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: Trust Yourself, came out in twenty twenty one, and that 31 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: was really the managing yourself side of the equation, and 32 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 2: what I kept hearing from people over and over, regardless 33 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: of what level they were at, whether they were more junior, 34 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: but most of my clients are mid to senior level, 35 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: and there was this theme of where all of my 36 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: confidence breaks down is when I have to deal with 37 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: people that feel more intimidating to me, or I'm in 38 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: those rooms or those conversations that feel higher stakes. And 39 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,639 Speaker 2: there was this conce distant theme about managing up, dealing 40 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: with people in authority, navigating politics and power dynamics. And 41 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: so I think for so many of us, especially those 42 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: who are recovering people pleasers, this is not a skill 43 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: you're really taught yet. So much of it comes down 44 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: to being able to leverage your empathy, your emotional intelligence, 45 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: just channel it in a different way. 46 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. And one of the things you say in the 47 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: book is, I mean, this is not about, you know, 48 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: flattering your boss, like managing up is not purely about 49 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: making sure your boss thinks he or she is the 50 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: most awesome person in the world, and by reflection, you 51 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: are too. I guess maybe you can talk a little 52 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: bit more about what it truly means and why this 53 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: might be a benefit to someone beyond just you know, 54 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: getting in good with the people in charge. 55 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. I appreciate you saying that, because that is most 56 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: of the time we hear managing up and we think 57 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 2: sucking up. Right, we equate those two things together. And 58 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: it makes sense because traditionally, for decades, that's how it 59 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: was portrayed. If you think about like Wolf of Wall 60 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: Street or any of those old movies, the person who's 61 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: managing up is the person who's running behind the boss 62 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: with the coffee order and just the yes person. And 63 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: the workplace has changed, but also what people want out 64 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: of work has changed, and so rather than having that 65 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: subordinate order taker mentality where it's just managing up is 66 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 2: me pleasing my boss, what I am advocating for and 67 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: when I see people do this successfully, they realize that 68 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: managing up is something you actually do for yourself. It's 69 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,399 Speaker 2: something you do to create the conditions for your success, 70 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: whether that is pushing back, giving feedback up the chain 71 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: of command, being able to set limits and expectations around 72 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: the work, getting clarity around what success does look like 73 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: in your role so you can track against that, advocating 74 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: for your own advancement. Those are all things that put 75 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: you in the best position to get what you need 76 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: from the people who. 77 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: Are in charge. Absolutely, So you have ten conversations in 78 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: this book that you want people to have with with 79 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: their managers as part of managing this relationship. We're not 80 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: gonna be able to talk through all ten, unfortunately, but 81 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about a few of them. 82 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: Why don't we start with the alignment conversation? I guess 83 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: we truly want to know what the person sees as good, right. 84 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 2: That's right, we have We have to start there because 85 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: if we don't know what we're trying to work towards, 86 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: we're we're going to be spinning our wheels, right, And 87 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: that's that's where when we fail to have the alignment conversation, 88 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: we feel frustrated. We feel like we're sidelined because unbeknownst 89 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: to us, we may not be working on what our 90 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 2: boss or the organization actually sees as important or promotable work. 91 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 2: And so that's why it is the first conversation in 92 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: the book. It is the most foundational. It also tends 93 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: to be an easy entry point because so much of 94 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: it is about observation, noticing what is important to your manager, 95 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,679 Speaker 2: but also asking good questions. So this is not having 96 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: to come right out and advocate for yourself. It's mostly 97 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: being a good listener. 98 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: And we're not starting with promote me. We're going first 99 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: in with being like, well, well, you can tell me 100 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: what are some good questions I should be asking a 101 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: manager in order to make sure that our visions of 102 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 1: success are aligned. 103 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, ask a better question, you get a better answer. 104 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: And so instead of just saying, well, what are your priorities, 105 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: you might get a surface level answer from that. A 106 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: few of my favorites from that chapter. One of them 107 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: is what are the metrics your boss is discussing with you? 108 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: Because that gives you almost a very instant shortcut into 109 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: what your manager is being evaluated against and guess what 110 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: they're going to care a lot and give a lot 111 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: of attention to that. So that's one of them. Another 112 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: one is what does good performance look like in this 113 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: role to you? And then pause, let your manager answer 114 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: and say, great, what does great performance look like now? 115 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: And you may put a. 116 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: Timeframe around that over the next three or six months 117 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: or by the end of the year. But that one's 118 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: really useful because that comparison between good and great it 119 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 2: helps get under the hood of maybe some of the 120 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: unspoken or abstract, the intangible qualities that your manager or 121 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: the organization sees make someone a high performer that may 122 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 2: not come out in a roadmapping or KPI exercise. 123 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you mentioned that earlier in your career at 124 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: one point, like sometimes all these alignment conversations or sense 125 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: it will surface some things like you've learned that your 126 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: role is expendable, And I guess that's good to know. 127 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you went through that in your career at 128 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: one point. 129 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 2: Right, I did I talk about that in that first chapter. 130 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 2: It is really something I kept hidden for many years 131 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: because I was embarrassed by it. And yes, I had 132 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: failed to have the alignment conversation deep enough. I had 133 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: surface level alignment with my manager, what are we accomplishing 134 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 2: day to day, week to week? But I really fail 135 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: to push further and say why is what I'm working 136 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: on important to the business and how is that being reported? 137 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: And what budget is going into this? I did not 138 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: dig deeper. I didn't have the courage to do it. Frankly, 139 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: I think maybe I was afraid of the answer now 140 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: as I reflect on it further, But yes, you know 141 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: when time came for cuts that my role was eliminated 142 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: because it wasn't core, was seen as a money pit. 143 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: And this is where, yes, we're not going to get 144 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: to all ten conversations today, but were some of the 145 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: other ones could save you. For example, if I had 146 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: been on top of having more of the visibility or 147 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: the networking conversation, then I might have had other advocates 148 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: behind my boss who knew about my skills beyond just 149 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: what I was doing on this one project, who may 150 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: have been willing to pull me over to their teams. 151 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: But I did it. So it's an extreme example of 152 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: what can happen. 153 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: Absolutely Well, we're going to take a quick ad break 154 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: and then I'll be back with more from Melody Wilding. 155 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: Well with Melody Wilding, who is talking about her brand 156 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: new book, Managing Up. We're learning how to deal with 157 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: the people in charge, not just to flatter them, but 158 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: in order to make sure that we get what we 159 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: want out of our careers. So we were talking about 160 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: aligning and making sure that what success looks for our 161 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: managers is informing what we are we are doing with 162 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: our time at work. Another one of these important conversations, though, 163 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: is the style one. And I wonder how much of 164 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: clashes or people perceive as trouble and like I have 165 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: a terrible boss or something like that, is a different 166 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: style and how we can sort of suss out what 167 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: this person. 168 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: Is A lot to answer your question, A lot of 169 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: what I see conflict tension in the workplace does come 170 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: down to a difference in styles, because what we often 171 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: perceive as someone being difficult, you know, they're hard to 172 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: work with, is actually a we're talking past each other 173 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 2: in terms of our preferences, our approaches are values around 174 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: the work And so how can we susce this out? 175 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: You said, we need to really focus on decoding the 176 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: people around us, because when we can understand that, when 177 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: we can put their behavior in context and see this 178 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: is a product of how this person's lens and this 179 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: is not them trying to talk over me, railroad me. 180 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: We stop taking the work so personally and we can 181 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: make thoughtful adjustments to how we do that. So in 182 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: the book I talk about how, if you look at 183 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the psychological research, communication styles really break 184 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: down into two dimensions. We have dominance, how assertive and 185 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: how much control does someone like? And we have associability 186 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: how much connection and rapport building interaction with other people 187 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: does the person want so higher low. You plot that 188 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: and we get again, broadly speaking, four different communication styles. 189 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: There are lots of different models for this. In the book, 190 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: I call them the four c's. And let's just take 191 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: a classic example. You may be working for someone who 192 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: in the book I would call a commander. This is 193 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: someone who is highly dominant and lower on sociability. These 194 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 2: people are very results oriented, they get to the point fast, 195 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: they move quickly. They really don't care as much about 196 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: people's feelings and consensus, and so sometimes they can seem 197 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: a bit dismissive and dominant. Frankly, now, you may be 198 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: someone who is what I would call a caretaker, the 199 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: exact opposite someone who is low on dominance and high 200 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: on sociability. You value stability, harmony, You do value relationships. 201 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: You want everyone to be happy and on board. You 202 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: care about morale. And a classic clash between these two 203 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: people is that the caretaker is someone who likes to 204 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: think before they act, who may need questions in advance, 205 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 2: who want to deliberate before they make a decision, whereas 206 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: the commander is someone who just wants you to get 207 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: right to the point. And so if you, as a 208 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: caretaker employee, are approaching your manager and you're leading with 209 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: all of the context and background and the theory and 210 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: how we got here, your manager is likely going to 211 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: cut you off and say that's great, I don't really care. 212 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: Can you tell me the main point of what you 213 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: need from me right now? And that's when you feel dismissed, 214 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: right you feel like I put so much time into 215 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: this and you're just cutting me off here. And so 216 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: not only again, we can put that into context and 217 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: not take it personally that my boss hates me and 218 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: I should just leave, but we can also just make 219 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: little tweaks. I call it flexing in the book flexing 220 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 2: your style. You don't have to change who you are 221 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: and what you value. You just change how you package 222 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: and present it. So instead of leading with all the context, 223 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: you give your executives a summary or a few bullet points. 224 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, that benefits you 225 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: because you eliminate a lot of stress for yourself. Your 226 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 2: message actually lands and again you're not you're not not 227 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: being true to yourself. You are still getting what's important 228 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: to you across but in a way they're actually going 229 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: to hear. 230 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: And I suppose that goes in the other direction too. 231 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean you can envision the opposite where you have 232 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: more of a caretaker boss and you are very kind 233 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: of to the point kind of person. You're walking in 234 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: and saying I want this, and the person's like, WHOA, 235 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,719 Speaker 1: can't do that right now? And because they want the 236 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: whole context, they want you to lead up to it, 237 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: like why or why am I asking for this? Like 238 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: what's the background? Who else has done this? They want 239 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: all that sort of information first. 240 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Yeah, and you can you can make 241 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: that thoughtful adjustment pretty easily, right, just just come with 242 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 2: a little bit of the background and that's it. 243 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, really quick story gets them on the all at ease. 244 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: It'll all be good. And part of this though, of course, 245 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: is you have to know yourself then, because I'm sure 246 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: there's plenty of people like, well, I don't know which 247 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: C I am? So how are we? How do we? 248 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: How do we go about figuring that out? 249 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: Yes? Well, in the book there's there's a much deeper 250 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: kind of diagnostic that it that it walks through all 251 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: of the different values, the strengths, the weaknesses of all 252 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: of the different types. But in that chapter there's one 253 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 2: exercise that actually is my favorite in the entire book. 254 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: I call it the me Manual, which is you creating 255 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: a guide to yourself as a professional. This is something 256 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 2: you do first and foremost for yourself because most of 257 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,239 Speaker 2: us never slow down to think about our own preferences. 258 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 2: It's just the water we swim in, so we've never 259 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: taken the time to articulate actually, how do I make decisions? 260 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: How do I like to receive feedback? What are some 261 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: of the maybe unspoken expectations I have about how quickly 262 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: work should be done or when when my hours on 263 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: or off are And so your MEW manual actually forces 264 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: you to get that down on paper. It's almost like 265 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: your operation manual to you it can absolutely be something 266 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: you share with your manager. I have people who are 267 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: in workplace cultures where they bring this to their boss 268 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 2: and they say, listen, I want to give you the 269 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: chee chet for getting the best performance out of me, 270 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: and we can talk through some highlights here. And I 271 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: have had people who say their boss is like, this 272 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: is pretty cool. 273 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: Can can I do this too? 274 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: Because I want to give this to my leader. So 275 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: you never know the reaction you might get, but at 276 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: the very least, it gives you a way to be 277 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: able to assert your preferences and your style when you 278 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: need to. So an example is, let's say that a 279 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: new project team is coming together. And I'm using this 280 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: example intentionally because managing up it, especially in today's workplace, 281 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 2: it doesn't always look like or rather I should say, 282 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: it has to look like extending beyond just our direct supervisor, 283 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: because we're dealing with other people in power beyond our boss. 284 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: And so let's say you have a new project team 285 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: coming together and there's other folks from cross functional divisions 286 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: who have more authority than you. What I always suggest 287 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: is that people at the beginning of those types of relationships, 288 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: you are the one to say we are not always 289 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: going to see eye to eye. And when we have 290 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: those situations where we have to work through some sort 291 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: of conflict or tension or prioritization, how do you want 292 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: to approach that. What are the sorts of things you 293 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: weigh or that are important to you that I could 294 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: bring to that conversation, And you let that person respond, 295 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: and you say, that's so helpful for me. Here's what 296 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: I would really value, Here's how I tend to think 297 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: through these things. So it becomes more of a two 298 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: way street rather than you just becoming a chameleon who's 299 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: adapting to everybody else. 300 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely. One of the other conversations is about boundaries, and 301 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is a podcast about time management, and 302 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: so one of the things that obviously you know, keeps 303 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: people from managing their time in the way that they 304 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: want is that their manager is making demands that are 305 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: perhaps not helping in that regard. So let's say that 306 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: your boss is making demands that is making your life bad. 307 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: How can you approach them to get to a better place. 308 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: Yes, well, let's start with the fact that why is 309 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: this so hard for us? And because most of us 310 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: we're trying to straddle this tightrope of wanting to be 311 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: a team player, right, we need to create that perception 312 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: that we're collaborative. We step up when it matters, but 313 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: at the same time, we don't want to be a pushover. 314 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: And I always say, you teach people how to treat you, 315 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: and so those having those boundaries, we want to make 316 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: sure we're teaching people to respect our time and our bandwidth. 317 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 2: And so start by asking questions, because so often, when 318 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: yet another thing is dumped on our plate, yet another 319 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: task is given to us, we go to one extreme 320 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: or the other. We go to the extreme of the 321 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: people pleaser passive, Sure, I'll get it done, I'll figure 322 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: out how to fit it in. Or we are already 323 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: at our limit and we snap back, and even if 324 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: it's our manager, we might say, I can't believe you're 325 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: giving this us. We're already underwater. So rather than those 326 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: two extremes, ask questions first by yourself a little bit 327 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: of time to calm down and get more details about 328 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: what's involved, because you may not always know on the 329 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: face of it, is this something I want to say 330 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: yes to or no? You can ask things like what's 331 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: driving the urgency here, what's the real deadline, Who else 332 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: is this visible to or who else is going to 333 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: be involved? Why did myself or my team come to 334 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: mind for this at first? And that can give you 335 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: a lot of good details to decide maybe this is 336 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: a good exposure opportunity or a skill building opportunity for 337 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: me or somebody else on my team. It can also 338 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: give you information about maybe I can redirect this to 339 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 2: somebody else. Maybe you find actually this is a process 340 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: that sits with operations or HR not with us, and 341 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: it gives you a leg to stand on to redirect it. 342 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: That's one thing is to ask questions first so you 343 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 2: know what's involved in that chapter. I give a number 344 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: of other different frameworks you can use for setting boundaries. 345 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: My favorite of those is the trade off approach, which 346 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: is essentially saying, I hear that you want both X 347 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: and Y done. In order to do that, then we 348 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: need to delegate or deprioritize something else. Are you okay 349 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: with that? When you do that, you're setting up a 350 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: Actually what's in what in research is called force choice, right, 351 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: you are setting up the illusion of control that someone 352 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: can only choose from A or B, and you're just 353 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: highlighting the reality that both of these things cannot be done, 354 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: but you're also approaching it from problem solving perspective. You're 355 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: not just shutting the request down and saying we can't 356 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 2: do that. You're approaching it to say, Okay, I understand, 357 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: I want to make both of these things happen, but 358 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: something has to give and subtly, especially if this is 359 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: someone who is maybe a level or two above you, 360 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 2: it's important to also signal that you do have some 361 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: recognition of the hierarchy. You are putting it back in 362 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 2: the other person's core to say, you make the call. 363 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 2: I can make a recommendation to say, based on from 364 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: where I said, I think we should prioritize A and 365 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: then pick up B in a couple of weeks. But 366 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it's your call. You 367 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: tell us what to do, and then we'll execute that. 368 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. It's like what we do with toddlers. 369 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: You could wear the red pants or the blue pants. 370 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: It's like, I don't want to wear any pants. Well, 371 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: that's not really a choice. 372 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: Do you know what is so funny? As I have 373 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: been talking about the book, that example has been brought 374 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: up over I would say a dozen times now it's 375 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 2: so interesting what we do with. 376 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: Course choice with everyone. All Right, well, we're going to 377 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: take one more quick ad break and then we'll be 378 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: back with more for Melody Wilding. Well, I am back 379 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: with Melody Wilding, who is the author of the new 380 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: book Managing Up about getting what we want from the 381 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: people in charge. Let's talk about if it doesn't happen 382 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: the first time though, maybe you ask for something, you 383 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: try to have a conversation about boundaries or even about 384 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: you know, future promotions or anything like that, and you 385 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: get a lot of resistance. Is this just the way 386 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: it is? Or the things we can do to kind 387 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: of work through the resistance over time? 388 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 2: I would say there's always things you can do. Everyone 389 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: has their threshold of how much they are willing to do. 390 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: But in the book, I took a lot of care 391 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: to make sure that there was a lot of tips 392 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: and strategies for what do I do when this happens 393 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 2: or I get this objection or this type of resistance. 394 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: So a moment ago we were talking about boundaries and 395 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: a common form of resistance you may get there is 396 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: when someone tries to guilt trip you to say, oh, 397 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: but I thought you were a team player, I really 398 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: expected more from you. When that happens, you can actually 399 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: turn that assumption around and say, I'm bringing this up 400 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 2: because I am a team player, because I do care 401 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: about us being successful, and because of that, I to 402 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: make sure our deadline is realistic here. And so that's 403 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: a really good strategy there. 404 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: When that happens, excellent, excellent. 405 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: Well. 406 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: One of the things I always ask people with this 407 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: show is about your own personal productivity. Do you have 408 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: any routines in your daily life that help you be 409 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: more effective? 410 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 2: Yes, I am disciplined. Is my top strength finder strength 411 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: if you're familiar with that. And the way that ends 412 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 2: up manifesting for me is I try to eliminate so 413 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 2: much decision fatigue from my life, and so I am 414 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 2: one of those boring people who eats the same thing 415 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: every day because I want to remove the decision fatigue 416 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 2: of worrying about what I have to eat, and I 417 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: have processes for things I need to do in my business. 418 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: I am always looking for ways how do I remove 419 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 2: little choices and decisions so that I have brain power 420 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 2: for all of the other things. I start all of 421 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: my days the same way with a workout, and that 422 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 2: really helps just wake my brain up in the morning. 423 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 2: But yes, routine is huge for me because I forget 424 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: who said it, but that idea of discipline equals freedom 425 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: for me, That's absolutely true. 426 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: I'm curious when you say there are certain things you 427 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: do with your business to like, do you devote certain 428 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: times each week to certain aspects of your business? Is 429 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: it like time block that way? What's the what does 430 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: that look like? 431 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 2: Great question? So I do time block. But what I 432 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: have found works for me is I do almost like 433 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 2: themed days when I can. So I have sort of 434 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: on days and then content creation days. My on days 435 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 2: are podcasting, speaking, meetings clients, and then I have days 436 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 2: where I don't have to be on camera, I don't 437 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: really have to be speaking out loud, and I'm heads 438 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 2: down and creating emails or writing podcasts and things like that. 439 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: So for me, I kind of kind of think about 440 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 2: what mode do I need to be in, and I 441 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: try to you know, thankfully, I do have more control 442 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 2: over my schedule than the average person. I try to 443 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: batch those things together. It's not always possible, but it 444 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: definitely helps me eliminate some of that context switching. 445 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent. And then I also ask guests, what is 446 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: something you've done recently to take a day from great 447 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: to awesome? 448 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: Oh, what is something I've done to take a day 449 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 2: from great to awesome? I have really been making an 450 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: effort to get outside more because someone who works from home, 451 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: it's very easy to just sit at your desk for 452 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: eight hours a day, and finally the weather is starting 453 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: to get better, and it just it just shifts your 454 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: whole perspective. There's something just about getting outside that and 455 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 2: also just changing modes. Like I was saying, context switching 456 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: a moment ago, sometimes you need those breaks in the 457 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: day as almost a reset moment. I'm always telling my 458 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 2: clients because they are people who will beat themselves up 459 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: and say, oh, well I wasted today, the day is gone. 460 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 2: Don't get into that all or nothing thinking. Every moment. 461 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: You know, every hour is another chance to reset, and 462 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: just taking that break to go outside can be that 463 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 2: opportunity to say, all right, now, this is the second 464 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 2: half of the day, how do I want to make 465 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: this successful? Even if the first half didn't quite turn 466 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 2: out just as I wanted it to. 467 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely, you can always seize any sort of fresh start. 468 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: What are you looking forward to these days? 469 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: Oh, I am looking forward to we are actually now 470 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 2: that the book is out, we're in the process of 471 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: completely revamping a lot of my programs and we just 472 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 2: went through a huge rebrand, so it's been very fun 473 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: and exciting to shift everything to be around this idea 474 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 2: I was talking about before, of the professional power position, 475 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 2: kind of the combination of mastering yourself and also influencing others. 476 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 2: So that's been a lot of fun, and it's also 477 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: been intellectually challenging, let's put it that way. 478 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: That's so exciting. It's always good to shake things up 479 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: in a good way. Melodie, where can people find you? 480 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: You can head to Melody Wilding dot com. All the 481 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: information about my books speaking, everything's there. 482 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: Awesome, Melie, thank you so much for joining us. Thank 483 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: you for everyone for listening. If you have feedback about 484 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: this or any other episode, you can always reach me 485 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, 486 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 487 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. 488 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach 489 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast 490 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, 491 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 492 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.