1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Ephemeralist production of High Heart, three d Ad A fulful Exposure. 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Listen with that phones. You'll find it in New York City. 3 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: You'll find it in your closet. You'll find it downtown. 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,159 Speaker 1: You'll find it at your neighbor's house, you'll find it 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: at the club, and you'll find it on TV. I'm 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: talking about drag, an art form which has garnered massive 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: popularity over the last decade, but has roots older than 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: modern religion. Drag has been traditionally defined as a form 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: of entertainment where men dresses women or women dresses men. 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: They might lip sync to a popular song, perform a 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: role on stage, or strut down a runway wearing the 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: trendiest clothes fashion has to offer. But in recent years, 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: drag has come to be understood as so much more. 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: It's a way of life, a path for people across 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: the world to express themselves and live their truth. Today, 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: producer Trevor Young is going to walk us from the 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: origins of drag to its most popular modern iteration. A 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: reality TV show which you've maybe heard of, Rue Balls 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Drag Race is now on v H one. Girl, Let's 20 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: do this. Your edges are officially snatched the Queen is 21 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: here about bitches. Think you've seen fashion? I got it 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:38,919 Speaker 1: going on. It's one of my main connections with young 23 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: people who are college age in the twenties. Like, we 24 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:44,919 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of other stuff to talk about. 25 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: They're very different. They're always got their head in their phone. 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: But the one thing we can totally connect on is, 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Candy News or Simone or got Nick, 28 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: you know, what do you think? Blah blah blah blah. 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: These are kids that are Ivy League colleges or there. 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: You know, they're straight kids, all gay kids or anything kids. 31 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: There's just this connection that RuPaul was created between people. 32 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: My name is Simon Donan. I am an author, and 33 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people know me from my 34 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: work at Barney's where I was creative director and design 35 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: windows and ads, and I've done a whole bunch of things. 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm all hello. Simon and I had agreed we'd do 37 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: a one hour interview about Drag, but it became two 38 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: hours because we couldn't stop talking about RuPaul's drag race. 39 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: It turns out we're both huge fans, but the reality 40 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: is that drag is so much more than just drag. Race. 41 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: It's an art form, a means of expression that goes 42 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: back hundreds even thousands of years. It's a rich historical 43 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: counterculture turned pop culture phenomenon that connects people across lines 44 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: of age, race, gender, wealth, in time. For Simon who 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: grew up in the UK, it's always been a way 46 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: of life. Well, I can't ever remember not being wearing 47 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: a drag. I mean when I was a kid, drag 48 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: was always on the TV. Many of the popular comedians 49 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: in my childhood always to a drag. We had big 50 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: famous female in personators like Danny LaRue. May I call 51 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: you ladies India any time we're owing a four three 52 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: to eight. If mother answers don't hang up, you're still 53 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: on a good thing. Dick and Marie, excuse me, miss 54 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: tell me? Do you have a favorite way of spending 55 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: a bank holiday? Yes? I invite the man in from 56 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: next time you have a sound together, Stanley Baxter Tingers 57 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: will have the staff are quite unsuitable, but surely we 58 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: should spare Mrs Bridges. She's a treasure. If she's a treasure, 59 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: then I suggested better. I don't oh god, So I 60 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: think English people have a different relationship to drag than Americans, 61 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: at least definitely back then, because we don't have that 62 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: puritanical revulsion against it. In the nineteen fifties, it was 63 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: just considered to be amusing and entertaining. I have pictures 64 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: of me when I was like ten in our backyard 65 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: at home, taken by my mother, with my best friend Biddy, 66 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: who went on to become quite a famous drag queen 67 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: in London in the seventies, and we're both in drag. 68 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,239 Speaker 1: After spending decades surrounded by drag, Simon wrote and published 69 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: a book in twenty nineteen called Drag The Complete Story. 70 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: So I had to think, well, why would I do 71 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: this book now? And then I thought, well, here's the deal. 72 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: You know, in the nineties, drag was basically losing its mojo. 73 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: People were speculating that now that it's would have lost 74 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: a lot of its marginal status, it was just gonna fizzle, 75 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: And people were making those kind of speculations, and I 76 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: quote people in my book saying that. But then fast 77 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: forward to the second decade of the century and there's 78 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: this huge explosive revolutionary interest in gender drag, not just 79 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: RuPaul's drag race, but the whole gender landscape became this 80 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: massively complex, massively focal part of the culture. As Simon 81 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: says saw, the doors burst open for gender expression, and 82 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: drag was the leader of this new revolution that made 83 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: it very appealing to a whole new generation of people. 84 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: It just seemed like a perfect art form that not 85 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: only like affirmed me in a queer and trans kind 86 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: of way, but also just like allowed me to showcase 87 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: all of my talents and didn't put any restrictions limitations 88 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: on it. This is Taylor Alexander in Atlanta based drag performer. 89 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: We'll be hearing from Taylor throughout this episode. Taylor began 90 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: their drag journey in I started identifying as like non 91 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: binary INN. When I had that kind of language, it 92 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: just made kind of more sense to me. It felt 93 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: more comfortable. Never really felt comfortable identifying with the label 94 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: of being a man. For some people, they do drag 95 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: because they don't have a space or a place to 96 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: explore gender, or they have an inkling that they might 97 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: not be the gender they were assigned at birth, and 98 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: so drag can sometimes be a way to explore that. 99 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: You know, I know plenty of people who come into drag, 100 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: you know, identifying as like cis gender men. And then 101 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: when they start doing drag and they started doing shows, 102 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: and eventually you know, they might come out as trans 103 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: or non binary, and I think that's beautiful. Well, that's 104 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: the reason to do this book, because there is this 105 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: gender revolution going on. When I started this book, there 106 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: was this iron firewall between drag and trans. It would 107 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: have been a huge mistake to call a trans person 108 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: a drag queen. There was this very different focus. And 109 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: then during the two years that I wrote on the book, 110 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: all the boundaries crumbled. Was truly revolutionary period where suddenly 111 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: you had straight women identifying as drag queens, you had 112 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: trans women identifying as drag queen identity. So it was 113 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: all changing to the point where now obviously you see 114 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: on Rupha's Drag Rays, we have got Mick who's a 115 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: trans man who has a drag queen alter ego, if 116 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: that's the right word for it. I thought, this is 117 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: a great time to revisit the history of drag and 118 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: bring it right up to day into this new revolutionary, 119 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: exploratory gender period that we're in now. Of course, it's 120 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: taken a time to get to this point, so let's 121 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: go back to some of the earliest iterations of what 122 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: we now call drag. Early Greek and Roman society was 123 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: very masculine and very chest beating and all about testosterone basically, 124 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: and then late Greek society became much more androgynous, and 125 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: the same with Rome, you know, towards the end of 126 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, when it began to crumble. Then you 127 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: saw a lot of bacchanalien madness emperors like Nero Caligula 128 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: wearing women's clothes. And you know, some people say they're exaggerated, 129 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: but I like to think that they're not because they're 130 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: so fun to read and and I thought, this is 131 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: a great way of getting young people interested in history 132 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: to tell all these super body crazy stories about Nero, 133 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: who also murdered his mother. You know, it's good to 134 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: keep that in mind. Um. I don't think they were 135 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: particularly nice people, by the sound of it. And the 136 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: was another ancient culture to test out gender ambiguity Egypt, 137 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: which is just the most marvelous, beautiful androgyny. If you 138 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: look at to some common and you know that was 139 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: a boy, but how beautiful, how extraordinary, how how mesmerizing 140 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: and timeless, like so amazing even today It so takes 141 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: your breath away to look at Egyptian art and the 142 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: use of androgynous images, the androgynous clothing and the shifts. 143 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: That was a pretty amazingly rich culture. To the east, 144 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: Japan used a form of drag with its kabuki theater, 145 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: developed in the Edo period. Kabuki featured men, often performing 146 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: as women on stage. The men would wear kimonas done 147 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: heavy pale white makeup, angle fans, and assume the role 148 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: of a geisha. The reasons for kabuky being male only 149 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: are vast and complicated, not limited to rampant sexism and 150 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: a history of violence towards female performers. Like kabuki, Shakespearean 151 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: drama in England also featured male actors playing female characters roles, 152 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: and like kabuki, it was not always for great reasons. 153 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: In Shakespeare, the female roles were played by men because 154 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: women weren't allowed to get it on the stage physically. 155 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: Oh no, even so quickly may one catch the plague. Methink, 156 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: so I feel this youth's perfections with an invisible and 157 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: subtle stealth to creep in out mine eyes. And then 158 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: the boys who played female roles lady Macbeth, Cleopatra. I 159 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: don't think they were treated really great. They didn't become 160 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: superstars or anything. They're often forgotten, whereas the male actors 161 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: are still remembered and the always who played women's roles. 162 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: One minute they might be in a pair of tites 163 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: having a sword fight, and then they would have to 164 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: put on some gown for their female role, of which 165 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: there are many. Shakespeare place with this all the time 166 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: because he does a lot of swapping. Gender swapping. You know, 167 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: as you like it, you're accellent is something finer than 168 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: you could purchase, and sort of moved the dwelling. I 169 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: have been total many but indeed the lord really just 170 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: uncle of mine, told me to speak. I've heard him 171 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: read many lectures against it, and I thank god, I'm 172 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: not a woman to be touched with so many gideal offenses. 173 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: That's actually apparently where the word drag comes from, because 174 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: there were these laws in Elizabethan, England that unless you 175 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: were an aristocrat, you couldn't wear velvet pearls. Course it's 176 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: all the all the finery of the aristocracy. It was illegal. 177 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: So when the aristocracy wanted to dump off their all clothes, 178 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: they would sell them to the Globe Theater where Shakespeare 179 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: producing his place. They would refer to it as their drags, 180 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: not going to wear my little jerk in and my 181 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: tides have to get my drags on. That's one theory 182 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: about the origin of the word drag. Drag might have 183 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: been most prevalent in the performing arts, but that wasn't 184 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: its only purpose. Often the stakes were much higher. There's 185 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: instances of people cross dressing to evade danger. That's a 186 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: common theme throughout history. Women have worn men's clothes in 187 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: order to survive, to get a job. Even in Victorian England, 188 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: you couldn't become a law clerk unless you were a boy, 189 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: so a lot of girls would dress up in boys clothes, 190 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: sort of like a gentle stories. What would you do 191 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: with all you have? Want the life was to study 192 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: and it was forbidden. But if it were that would 193 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: be difficult, wouldn't it always hiding afraid of being discovered? Yes, 194 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: what's your secret? So women across just throughout history, but 195 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: often with the goal being just pure survival, either physical, financial, 196 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: or whatever. The technical term for a woman who dresses 197 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: as a man is a drag king. While the practice 198 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: was used for survival reasons. It was also incredibly popular 199 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: in the entertainment industry. You know, there's drag kings who 200 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: became very famous, Hetty King and those women at the 201 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: turn of the twentieth century, they were making a lot 202 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: of money. They were like huge Broadway stars. People love 203 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: to watch a woman grab that male man, splaining power 204 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: and and satirize it. We'll hear more about drag kings 205 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: in a minute for now. We Land in the early 206 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: twentieth century where drag exploded. Between the wars was a 207 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: very fertile time for drag. That the Harlem Renaissance. There 208 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: was people like Gladys Bentley. There was this thing called 209 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: the pansy Craze in Harlem. There was a time of 210 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: sort of loosening morals, more creative freedom and freedom of 211 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: expression between the wars, and you saw that in London, 212 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: Germany obviously the Weimar period. And you know, if you've 213 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: seen the movie Cabaret, what good is sitting alone in 214 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: your room? Come here the music play. Someone like Gladys Bentley, 215 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: you know, she thrived during the panty craze, became a 216 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: big superstar. She had a big apartment on Park Avenue 217 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: and a limo driver, and she was doing great. She 218 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: would wear a tucks and she would flirt with women 219 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: in the audience, and she was a secretly charismatic woman 220 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: who I think somebody should make a film about her life. 221 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: Then after the Wars, particularly in America, there was this 222 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: new emphas on respectability and being conventional, and you know, 223 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: they started threatening her. It's illegal for women to wear 224 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: men's clothes. And she wrote a terrible article in I 225 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: think it was Ebony magazine. The headline was something like, 226 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: I become a woman again, And she took female hormone 227 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: and had married a guy and had to retreat from 228 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: this freedoms of being a drag queen. And it's quite 229 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: a sad story that was very much a mirror of 230 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: the times. Sadly, drag and trans performers continued to struggle 231 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: for rights and for survival throughout the twentieth century. In 232 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: New York City, being queer was illegal, as was selling 233 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: alcohol at openly lgbt Q establishments. Then in nineteen one 234 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: event changed everything. On June, police rated a gay bar 235 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: called the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village. Cops broke into 236 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: the building, arresting and assaulting the patrons. The local queer 237 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: community was over it, and they were furious. Riots erupted 238 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood that would go on for days. Headed 239 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: up by movement icons Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, 240 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: the Stonewall riots were some of the most significant displays 241 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: of resistance and courage in the face of oppression. You know, 242 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, obviously for gay people of 243 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: color and trans people of color, it's infinitely worse, but 244 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: even for me in my little factory town, gay bashing 245 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: was a weekend hobby for the local skinnets. Homophobia was 246 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: just part of the lingo, as was racism, as was 247 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: stuff that's completely unacceptable these days. It was just normal. 248 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: And I remember my dad saying to me when he sensed, 249 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, I was starting to manifest. We never discussed 250 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: it during our entire life, but he was getting sense 251 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: probably that I was gay, and he said to me, 252 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, those homosexuals, they get beaten up, they get blackmailed, 253 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: most of them end up in prison or in the 254 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: mental hospital. And the horrible thing is he was actually correct. 255 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: It was illegal to be homosexual until nineteen sixty seven 256 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: in England, and then even when that was overturned. The 257 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: actual policing of gay people continued way into the seventies, 258 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: and the gay bashing in many someplaces never stopped. My 259 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: family is from Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland was very slow 260 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: to make any changes. My sister's gay and my mom 261 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: was terrified that the police would find out we were 262 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: gay because it was illegal, was on the books, you know, 263 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: like unless is into the eighties, into the nineties, I 264 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: think still gay marriage isn't eagle and so imagine that. 265 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: But your trans and you're you're breaking these other sacred 266 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: taboos about gender is a million times worse. So I 267 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: only signed my gaye experience as a sort of, you know, 268 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg for what what the trans 269 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: person might face. Simon knew a number of trans and 270 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: drag performers throughout the seventies and eighties. I asked him 271 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: how they got by? You have a good left hook. 272 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: When I lived in Manchester in the early seventies and 273 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: it was a fantastic town with a very vibrant drag scene, 274 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: but the dragon queens was so tough. I remember being 275 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: in at some horrible calf with these two drag queens. 276 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: I knew called Aver and Charis, and some woman said 277 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: something to Ava that ticked her off. And Ava was 278 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: big and she picked up her tray with her food 279 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: on just threw it right out this woman and then 280 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: poors Cherise later on was murdered by you know, skinhead gang. 281 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: And I think that that kind of stuff continues in 282 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: other parts of the world. I mean these countries where 283 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: it's still illegal to be gay. There's countries in Africa, 284 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: whether it's just you wonder when are they going to 285 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: make some progress on this issue. Brazil, I think it 286 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: seems very liberated and very gay positive, but then trans 287 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: people are murdered in record numbers in Brazil. So brave 288 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: to throw on a frock and get out there and 289 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: it's empowering and it's creative and it's brilliant, but it's 290 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: also hugely courageous. For some younger drag queens today, that 291 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: history might get lost the Internet and media portraying much 292 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: more glamorized version of drag than the one of generations past. 293 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 1: But for Taylor Alexander, that history is everything. It's really 294 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: informed how I got into drag. Who was the porting 295 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: me when I started doing drag? So knowing my history 296 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: and knowing what had to happen before I came along 297 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: to make the world what it is for queer and 298 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: trance people is extremely important. I think that there are 299 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: some people who just don't think about that, who don't 300 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: take that into consideration. You know. On top of being 301 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: like a performer, I'm also like a community organizer, and 302 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: so as much as like you know, I love throwing parties, 303 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: I'm always thinking about, like how can I reflect different 304 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: communities in this drag show? How can I tie this 305 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: into like queer history, how can I tie this into 306 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: like movements that are happening right now, which is like 307 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: standing up for black trance lives and whatnot. It's like 308 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: an ongoing process, and I think it's unfortunate that some 309 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: performers just completely toss it to the side. I definitely agree. 310 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: I don't want to go to every single bar and 311 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: have like a sit down conversation about like stone Wall 312 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: in Marsha P. Johnson, But every single person that comes 313 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: to a show of mine, it comes to a uh 314 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: an event that I'm producing. I would love to leave 315 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: with like a certain kind of inspiration and to learn 316 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: more and to to know more and to grow, and 317 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: so history and representation and just learning about who came 318 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: before me and what's going to happen, you know, after me. 319 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: It's really important. Until the late eighties, drag culture had 320 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: very little visibility outside of its few subversive pockets around 321 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: the world. But then one movie changed all of that, 322 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: Jenny Livingstone documentary Paris Is Burning Law Learned and learned 323 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: it well. That movie is sort of like the Citizen 324 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: Kane of drag. I was working years ago in the 325 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: mid eighties when all of my friends were dying. It 326 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: was a terrible period, the Eights epidemic. And Susanne bart 327 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: Is a very clear was friend of mine. She's a 328 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: club queen in New York, and back then we were 329 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: like so overwhelmed with death. You know, we're still young 330 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: people and dealing with all this death. And she said, 331 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to do a charity event, but like one 332 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: of these voguing balls. And I said, what you're talking about, 333 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 1: And she dragged me up to Harlem and we went 334 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: to a bunch of these voguing balls, and then we 335 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: started having committee meetings for this event she wanted to 336 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: do call a love Ball, and one week Chi Valente, 337 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: who has been very involved in this work. She said, 338 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: I'm bringing this girl who's doing a documentary on the 339 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: voguing scene in New York killed Jenny Livingston, And she 340 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: came and she showed us a little fragment, a preliminary 341 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: fragment of this film, Paris Is Burning. It's a very 342 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: intimate look at what was called ball culture in the 343 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: late eighties. It was often less than wealthy, gay and 344 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: trans people of color who put on their own pageant 345 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: shows using whatever clothes and props they had. Jay people 346 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: men gathered together under one roof and decide to have 347 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: competition amongst themselves. Balls. I worked to a ball. I've 348 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: got a trophy, and now everybody wants to know me. 349 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: In the film, you see the underground ball culture of 350 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: New York City centered around Harlem, and there we meet 351 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: a number of drag families such as the Lobejas and 352 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: the Extravaganzas. The House Extravaganza has a lot. It's made 353 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: me feel like I have a families and we're always together. 354 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 1: We always if we're not together, we always speak on 355 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: the phone. These adoptive families and these balls were often 356 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: these individuals only source of belonging and safety. It's like 357 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: crossing into the looking glass in Wonderland. We're going there 358 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: and you feel, you feel a hundred rights being gay, 359 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: and then that's what it's like. That what it's like 360 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: in the world. The Boys, the Extravagances, lab Asia dupri 361 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: they were all over Manhattan. But there's one person had 362 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: the imagination to pick up a camera and create that movie. 363 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: And so hats off to her that she saw that, 364 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: because the impact of that movie is is enduring and 365 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: enduring and enduring, and I think it's given drag to 366 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: a global language. Shante Shante Shante Shante Shante Chante. You know, 367 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: throwing shade shad is I don't tell you're ugly, but 368 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: I don't have to tell you because you know you're ugly, 369 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: and that's shade. All the lingo that's in there, mopping, mopping, 370 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: you go into a store and just look mapping, stealing. 371 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: A lot of people would recognize the expressions that were 372 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: used in Charaspanic because you hear them on CNN. Please 373 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: don't don't trying to throw shade just because I'm making 374 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: sure that shade. I'm just trying to you know, people 375 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: will say, getting shady with me and throwing shade and bloody, 376 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: bloody blood. That's the magic of this film. And then 377 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: you hear it every time you watch Rupules, drag Rays, Girl, shade, Shade, 378 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: constant references to that movie. Now in the great tradition 379 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: of Paris is Burnie the library is about to be outfit. 380 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: You know, that period is very poorly documented. Not many 381 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: people photographed those balls, but we have that film which 382 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: is very very touching. You know, a lot of those 383 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: kids are in the balls. They don't have two of nothing. 384 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: Some of them don't even eat. They come to ball 385 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: starting and they sleep on the pier or wherever. They 386 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: don't have a home to go to. But they'll make 387 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: they'll go out and they'll still or something and get 388 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: dressed up and come to a war for that one 389 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: night and lived a fantasy. One of the things I 390 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: find so amazing about it is when you look back 391 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: at it, Jenny Livingston said, I realized I'd entered the 392 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: world where these people knew exactly how to be themselves. 393 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: Mistakes were so low for those people in that film. 394 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: They were so marginalized on so many levels that they 395 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: had nothing to lose. What you see when you look 396 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: at those people like Pepper up Asia and Dorr and 397 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: Corey and the legendary children and all of it is 398 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: people who know how to be themselves without any filter, 399 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: and they all seem strangely happy. You know, obviously they're 400 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: on for the camera, but that's the thing that always 401 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: strikes me, Like, as Pepper lap Asia says, they don't 402 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: have two of nothing, but it was laughing and they 403 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: make their own fun and then not being driven bonkers 404 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: by social media. Obviously they have their TIFFs in their issues, 405 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: and they all were casualties of aids and drugs, and 406 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,479 Speaker 1: you know, they didn't have easy I'm not saying they 407 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: had easy lives, but there's this weird joy that radiates 408 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: from people even though they have essentially nothing. I find 409 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: that very touching, very inspiring. At the same time that 410 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: voguing balls were taking place in small Manhattan clubs and 411 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: dragging in forms of drag, we're being commercialized in pop culture, 412 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: most notably in the music industry. The counterculture. Back then, 413 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: people talked about unisex, unisex clothing, unisex hair dues, and 414 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: it was around that time that glam rock erupted, turns On, 415 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: Leave It On. How you are driving. I want my 416 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: m T, I want my TV. I worshiped David Bowie, 417 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: Mark Boland, all those people used to go to those 418 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: early concerts of Theirs and We're Satin, you know, and 419 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: things I couldn't afford to buy from Mr Freedom, which 420 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: was the big glam rock star I used to make myself. 421 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: It was a totally androgynous lot of boys were big 422 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: platform shoots and our heels, which was great for me 423 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: because I'm only five ft four, so it's fabulous. It 424 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: was a period where androgyny became a big thing, and 425 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: and it surges in and out of pop music. I mean, 426 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hendrix is obviously very androgynous, wearing flowers and velvet. 427 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: Mick Jagger that was the sixties thing too, and then 428 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: resurfaced with glam rock in a more theatrical show busy 429 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: way with satin and stars and stuff like that, and 430 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: then loads of makeup obviously, like Boie, I find that 431 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: I am a person who can take on the guises 432 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: of different people that I meet. I can switch accents 433 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: in seconds of me somebody and I can adopt their accent. 434 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: I've always found that I collect I'm a collector I 435 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: have a hotchpotch philosophy, which really is very minimal. And 436 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: you seem like somebody maybe who would love glam rock. 437 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: Are you a glamor rock person? But he is probably 438 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: my favorite musician of all time. Well, today you're looking 439 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: very hunky dory, thank you. Yes, I get that a lot. 440 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: He was so he wasn't male, it wasn't female. He 441 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: was genuinely very androgynous, like you actually stopped thinking about 442 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: anatotomical stuff with him. He was just this beautiful extraterrestrial 443 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: of androgyny. For gay people of my generation, it was 444 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: very powerful because back then you thought, oh, if you're gay, 445 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: you just end up being some alcoholic Judy Garland loving 446 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: person who's full of self loathing and living in the shadows. 447 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: And suddenly, oh, my god, is this way to be gay. 448 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: That's hip and groovy and tied into the culture. And 449 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: so it was very significant for my generation. I think 450 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: he was the most sophisticated take on androgyny other than 451 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: maybe Grace Jones. How do you view yourself? I'm schizophrenic, 452 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: have many different moods. I think, like everyone else, I'm 453 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: very much human, very much that Grace Jones is incredibly 454 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: beautiful visual take of androgyny. It's also very unforgettable. Then 455 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: at other times it became like the New York Dolls. 456 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: You know, they were doing a parody of almost like 457 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,719 Speaker 1: slapping the makeup on and you know, hasty, kind of 458 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: ratchet drag, which was sort of just designed to be provocative. 459 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: And then we moved into the eighties with hair Metal. 460 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: You know, hair Metal was pure drag. It was like 461 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: guys dressing in their mother's aerobics clothes and then getting 462 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: their done like Joan Cusack in Working Girl. It was 463 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: brilliant and very funny, you know, aggressively heterosexual, but then 464 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: dressed like a New Jersey housewife basically no offense to 465 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: New Jersey housewives. But when the nineties hit, drag became 466 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: synonymous with one name and one name only, RuPaul. You've 467 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: had a show, Bunny as the Pyramid Club was the 468 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: focus of drag when I came to New York in 469 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: the early eighties, and that is where drag kind of 470 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: started to become hip. I mean a lot of people 471 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: stood out, but there was one person who was just different, 472 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: and that was RuPaul. Because RuPaul was always turned out, 473 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: never sloppy, it was never hag drag, you know, it 474 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: was always turned out. And I'm not at all surprised 475 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: that he has gotten where he's got because there was 476 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: always this aura around him of success, and he used 477 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: to say it. He always envisaged his own success. He 478 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: knew he kind of would be something, he would amount 479 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: to something. When you become the image of your own imagination, 480 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: it's the most powerful thing you could ever do, you know, 481 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: because I ain't stopping, you know. You know, in my mind, 482 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: I've always been a superstar, you know, and nobody couldn't 483 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: tell me no different, you know what I mean. So 484 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: if you believe it, then they'll believe it, they'll buy you. 485 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: Hear that from a lot of people. Madonna also has that. 486 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: I think I've always had a lot of confidence in myself. 487 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: What are your dreams? What's left to rule the world? 488 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: Like nothing was going to get in their way. It 489 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: was going to happen. And there's this weird kind of 490 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: certainty that most of us don't have, but certain people, 491 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: and root Poles, one of them, always had that vision 492 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: of herself and has fulfilled it. RuPaul Charles was born 493 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: in California, but really kicked off his drag career in Atlanta, 494 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: Georgia in the nineteen eighties. He then went on to 495 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: New York City, where he exploded onto the scene, appearing 496 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: on TV with the RuPaul Show one studios in New 497 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: York Show Up and recording hit songs like you Better 498 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: Work in a Shade Shady, I just want to give pay, 499 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: I just want to Finally, in two thousand nine, RuPaul 500 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: launched the first season of RuPaul's Drag Race, a show 501 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: where queens would compete to be the next drag superstar. 502 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: So goes the show's popular slogan, good Dragular, these queens 503 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: will rate them old by spreading and positivity and unity 504 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: to become a America's next drag superstar not away from me. 505 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: The show would not only bring drag into the mainstream, 506 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: but inspire a whole new generation of drag performers, including 507 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: Taylor Alexander, though they have some mixed feelings about RuPaul. 508 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: It's weird because RuPaul started doing drag here in Atlanta, 509 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: and when she first started doing drag, which is like 510 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: my favorite era of RuPaul, she was you know, very 511 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: into like Androgyny. She used to wear like you know, 512 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: football shield and like shoulder pad like mohawks and like 513 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: also used to do like music. She was in a 514 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: band called Wee Pole that used to perform right along 515 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: here on Ponds. And so it's funny that you know, 516 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: she was dabbling in androgyny and messing with gender and 517 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: messing with even like the ideas of drag because even 518 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: then there were still like, you know, these notions that 519 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, drag is quote unquote to be a female illusionists, 520 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: and so they have to be padded and have this 521 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: very kind of like quafft and perfected, you know. Look, 522 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: and here comes through Paul, just like completely messing with that. 523 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: But then you see her slowly transform over the years 524 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: into this glamazon and she calls it and kind of 525 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: completely forget the very queer, the very like androgynous route 526 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: that she began with. And I think that's because of 527 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: her personal journey with being like the world's most like 528 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: famous drag queen. What Taylor is referring to is that 529 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: throughout the runtime of Drag Race, RuPaul has been slow 530 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: to accept trans performers into the ranks, instead preferring sis 531 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: gay men exclusively. However, the show itself has progressed over 532 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: its decade plus time on the air, now featuring a 533 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: number of trans men and women. Most of all, the 534 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: show has provided a platform for drag performers of all 535 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: types to expand their brands and show their stuff. The 536 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: show also allows for many intimate and tender moments with 537 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 1: many of these queens. My dad passed in October two 538 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, and it's still so fresh to me. We 539 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: didn't see at at first, but we ended up having 540 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: the best relationship. He came to my patents and we 541 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: was always talking, and he told me, you need to 542 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: go on Rupa's request so him pass. And he was like, yeah, 543 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: it's time. I want to do it for my dad. Wow, 544 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: it's an amazing story and you've done so well. I 545 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: am so proud of you. Thank you. I'd love watching 546 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: you just work through it and make it happen. I 547 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: love how if there's some drag queen who's struggling a 548 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: bit and they're in a saboteur is pushing them in 549 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: the wrong direction, and Rupat has that very paternal maternal 550 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 1: conversation with them about being your own best pal and 551 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: get your act together. You deserve to have good things 552 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: happen to you. And I think that's a very important 553 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,919 Speaker 1: message because I don't think drag queens historically thought that 554 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: they deserve to have good things happened to them. The 555 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: whole society was telling them the opposite, Just like my 556 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: dad telling me, we'll gay people. They all get blackmailed 557 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: and they all end up in prison or depressed or whatever. 558 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: RuPaul is just annihilated all that. These kids know how 559 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: to make money, they know how to take care of themselves. 560 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: They're great role models for like survival, because survival is 561 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: really important, how to get a job, how to keep 562 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: a job. And RuPaul has those basically solid working class 563 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: beliefs that are married with this amazing, free flowing creativity. 564 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: To be successful at drag race, usually you have to 565 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: do two things. You have to look good and you 566 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: have to be funny. Ms Bendella Cram. After seeing you 567 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 1: and drag I realized now why Seattle had to hide 568 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: suicide rate. It used to be quite separate, you know, 569 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: glamor drag and comedy drag, especially in my childhood, like 570 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: someone like caught Yell, you know a show girl from 571 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: the Lieberger was it was about glamor and then the 572 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: straight guys like Benny Hill, dec Emery, Monty, Python, egg sausage, Egon, 573 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: spa and bacon and spagon sausage and spa. They were 574 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: wearing drag and they basically looked hideous. You know. It 575 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: was a kind of misogynistic take on womanhood. So they 576 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: work kind of separate in many ways, And what you 577 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: see now is the real success comes when people combine 578 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: them in. Rupole was one of the first people to 579 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: do that. She's very funny, she's very witty. As the 580 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: Queen of Sauca, you lacked spice, she wants to look 581 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: elegant and beautiful and megastar, but she's funny as well, 582 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: So I think that's a fairly recent thing, a brilliant 583 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: combination of the two. They deride people on Rupa's drags 584 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: for being, oh, she's too much of a pageant queen. 585 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,879 Speaker 1: So just being an air to a drawing is not enough. 586 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: You have to you have to have some humanity because 587 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: not everybody wants to lose themselves in the aesthetic vision, 588 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 1: but everybody wants to have a good laugh. When you're 589 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: watching RuPaul's drag race, don't you find yourself just I 590 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: think I've been sitting here for forty five minutes with 591 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: the biggest grin on my face, like it's the most 592 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: life affirming show. And again it's like partsipering. You cry 593 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: a bit, but mostly you just laugh and you think, 594 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is insane. It's so fun. As 595 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: of this episode's airing, there have been thirteen seasons of 596 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: RuPaul's Drag Race, six seasons of Drag Race All Stars, 597 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: two seasons of Drag Race UK, and spinoffs in country 598 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: like Australia, Canada, Holland, Spain and Thailand. Drag has officially 599 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: become a global commercial empire, and it's now a glitzy 600 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: business that's not always reflective of the more d i 601 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: y drag culture you might expect to find in your 602 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: local gay bars. I asked Taylor Alexander what they think 603 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: of drag Race and if they'd ever do it. Have 604 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: I considered drag Race, yes, because I would love to 605 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: be able to do. Drag is like my full time gig, 606 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: and that's just it which some people are able to 607 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: do in the city. You know, up until the pandemic, 608 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: half of my income was from doing shows and doing drag, 609 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: so I'm happy to get back to that soon. But 610 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: what I ever do drag Race just because of the 611 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: kind of like legal contractual obligations of being on Drag Race. 612 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: Like recently there was this whole like expose about the 613 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: latest season's contract. Provision A says, the producer has the 614 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: irrevocable option to require you to appear as a participant 615 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: in one cycle of series episodes. The next provision grants 616 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: the producer the additional exclusive and irrevocable options to have 617 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: you appear as a participant in five additional seasons, which, 618 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: by the way, it could be cycles of this series 619 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: RuPaul's Drag Race or Rupau's Drag Race All Stars. And 620 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: the next part signs away your rights to all of 621 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: the materials in the show, including the casting tape that 622 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: you created and submitted to them. Basically, when signing this form, 623 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: you're now legally obligated to participated into six seasons of 624 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: RuPaul's Drag Race. I've chosen to do so. They could 625 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: potentially own you basically from like four to twenty years. 626 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: They could negotiate how much you get paid, what you 627 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: post on social media, what kind of merch And it's 628 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: just like, I don't need that as much as I 629 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 1: would love like a national platform to showcase my artistry 630 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: and be able to like tour in whatever off of drag. 631 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 1: It's just like being tied to a brand that I 632 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: have no control over. It's just scary and also so 633 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: I just think for me, I'm best doing what I 634 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: do here in the city of Atlanta. I really see 635 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: myself being here for decades and kind of creating my 636 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: own legacy in terms of like Drag Race and kind 637 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: of like how it informed me. I'm the kind of 638 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: person that's always critiquing Drag Race, but I will watch 639 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: every single episode, probably like multiple times, just because you know, 640 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: it's the only like big mainstream kind of representation of drag. 641 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: There's like other smaller drag showcases on a bigger platform. 642 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: But I think for me, I would much rather not 643 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: see people kind of competing, but more so just like 644 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: highlighting the amazing drag communities that we have here in 645 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: the country. Like one of my goals eventually it's like 646 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: do my own show where I travel from like a 647 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: city to city and like highlight one drag show and 648 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 1: show like their whole process of like getting into drag 649 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: and why they do drag and what dragged us for 650 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: their communities, and you know, I've I've done shows in 651 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: like places like you know, Spartansburg, South Carolina, or like 652 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: during North Carolina, which has an amazing queer community that's 653 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: way smaller than Atlanta. But the love and be affection 654 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: and the intent and creating those spaces, especially for more 655 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: marginalized folks in like rural, more conservative areas, I think 656 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: that needs to be highlighted. As much as I love 657 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: like the pageantry and the glitz and the glamor drag race, 658 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 1: I also love like the true grit of like regularly, 659 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: regular everyday drag performers. What Taylor is getting at is 660 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: a question I've also thought to myself. Is drag becoming 661 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,959 Speaker 1: too big? Too commercial? People used to say that about 662 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: drag in the nineties, you know, so look where we 663 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: are now. People always say that, Oh they said it 664 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: about the counterculture, about punk, about everything. Oh it's going 665 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: to become blah blah blah, diluted commercialized. I never worry 666 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,439 Speaker 1: about that because people are so surprising and protein and 667 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: a lot of drag queens may become very household names 668 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,760 Speaker 1: or you know, integrated into the culture, but there's always 669 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: going to be radical ones who find new ways to 670 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: be assaulted and crazy and fun and provocative. It's just 671 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: the nature of the beast. There's always going to be 672 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: new ways of looking at things, like this new obsession 673 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: with meticulous artistry that's become such a signature part of Drag. 674 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: Now there'll be something after that that comes along keeps 675 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: it alive, because this is a great form of satire, 676 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 1: you know, and satire is sort of getting lost a 677 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: bit in our culture. Good satire, but Drag Queens now, 678 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: they're still good at satirizing masculinity, femininity, stupidity, political issues. 679 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 1: They amp it up every season that show. They find 680 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: new ways to reinvent the medium and make it more 681 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: extraordinary because they are very imaginative, creative people. So it's 682 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: actually something I don't worry about. All I see is 683 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: like magical creativity and enough to go around and easily 684 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:55,840 Speaker 1: enough to propel this movement into a new, unforeseen, extraordinary, 685 00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:04,319 Speaker 1: apocalyptic craziness. I can't wait, not to quote RuPaul, but 686 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: to quote RuPaul, Drag will always be punk. I don't 687 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: think that she fully believes in that in practices that 688 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: on her show, but Drag will always be punking. D 689 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: I Y it will always be messy, it will always 690 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: be not the nicest, clean cut, you know, one and 691 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: a half hour kind of production that Rupau's Drag Race is. 692 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: Drag will always be for the people, by the people, 693 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: and not as like nice and polished. And I think 694 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Do I think that the audiences who engage 695 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,799 Speaker 1: and drag have changed and will change the future absolutely, 696 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: Like even like the first shows in my career, those 697 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: audiences were, you know, mainly like queer and trance people, 698 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: but over the years, more and more like sis gender 699 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: heterosexual people are just like coming to show. I think 700 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: drag will always be kind of like nitty gritty. If 701 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: Drag Race, you know, wants to continue and change and 702 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,319 Speaker 1: more from being a long running staple American television, I 703 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 1: think it's going to have to go back to a 704 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,840 Speaker 1: certain kind of d I Y elements. I feel like 705 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,719 Speaker 1: Drag Race has really changed since season nine. I feel 706 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: like season nine is where we saw kind of more 707 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: like polished ready for TV. I'm trying to get an 708 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 1: Emmy Award nomination kind of producing. You know, Even like 709 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: season three, season four, those were incredibly like d I Y. 710 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: They were like so many challenges where they had to 711 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: make their own outfits, and you know, it was so 712 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: much of those based more on performance and not so 713 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: much like story producing. But I really feel like the 714 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: past few seasons have just gone straight into that kind 715 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 1: of like, alright, this is a television reality show and 716 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,799 Speaker 1: not so much like a drag competition show. So it'll 717 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: be interesting to see how Drag Race transformed over the 718 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: next few seasons, over the next few years. But I 719 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: think of the drag regardless of Drag Race, has always 720 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,320 Speaker 1: been d i y, has always been gritty, has always 721 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: been punk, and I hope they gets more punk. I 722 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: would love to see. It's like, you know, mainstream note 723 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: variety around drag goes up that like the kind of 724 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: weirdness and quirkiness of drag just gets even more and 725 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: more visible. So we've heard what drag was during the 726 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: Roman Empire, and we've heard what drag is today. So 727 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,760 Speaker 1: what's the common thread that ties all of these vast 728 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: interpretations of the art form together. Why does drag exist 729 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 1: in our world in our culture. Well, here's simon. I 730 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: feel like drag is a visual thing. In fact, there 731 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: was this theory back in the nineties that why are 732 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: men drawn to the idea of cross dressing or trans 733 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: vestis um or you know the millions of words that 734 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,399 Speaker 1: have been used over the years. Why are men drawn 735 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: to that? And there was this theory that for the 736 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: twentieth century, during the twenties century, women owned what was 737 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,760 Speaker 1: known as the visual realm. So there is no male 738 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: equivalent to Marilyn Monroe, there is no male equivalent to 739 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: Gene Harlow, there is no Linda Event, Julista, Naomi Campbell. 740 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,360 Speaker 1: You know, they have this incredible power that just purely 741 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,239 Speaker 1: comes from if they show up, there's this free song, 742 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,360 Speaker 1: this magical thing around women. They continue to own the 743 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,439 Speaker 1: visual realm. That's why you have phenomenon's like Golden Age 744 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,200 Speaker 1: of Hollywood, Lady Gaga, all of it. And then men 745 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: wearing women's clothes was seen back then as being sort 746 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,319 Speaker 1: of a power grab, a very complex paragraph because it 747 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: was like, I want to have that, I want to 748 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: own the visual realm. I want to walk into a restaurant. 749 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,240 Speaker 1: Everyone's looking at me. I'm Liz Taylor, I'm Marilyn Monroe, 750 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: I'm an injury evangelista. Men used to record the motivations 751 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: to where women's clothes as being this incredible sense of freedom, 752 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: like I'm no longer the bread when the male burden 753 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: is lifted and I get to own this visual realm 754 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: that women. I think it remains to be true. I mean, 755 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 1: I'm a gay man, but I love to look at femaleness, 756 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: even if it's a drag queen. You could never build 757 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,239 Speaker 1: a show around a bunch of people dressing up as 758 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 1: lumba jacks and roadwork. I don't know, maybe if it 759 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: might be fun, but never say never. But there's something 760 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: about the Medusa like power. And you see on RuPaul's 761 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: drag race very clearly when they walk into the workroom. 762 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: At the beginning, they seem very young, very ang new, 763 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,320 Speaker 1: these young boys, and then suddenly the two foot taller 764 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,640 Speaker 1: the hair is out to hear. Drag queens are very intimidating. 765 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,320 Speaker 1: That's part of the deal. They grabbed the power center 766 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:44,399 Speaker 1: in the room and people love it. Taylor Alexander has 767 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: a different perspective. I think that drag has always been 768 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,120 Speaker 1: a way for people to not only entertain a perform 769 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: for people, but to off like navigate spaces where if 770 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,319 Speaker 1: they were out of drag they probably would and be 771 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 1: as accepted, which is sad to say there's a history 772 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: and queer community of drag reformers often also being activists, 773 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,960 Speaker 1: are also being you know, marginalized in some capacity. You know, 774 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: when we think about like historical figures, we think about 775 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, Marsha P. Johnson, Sylvia rivera miss Major, so 776 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,120 Speaker 1: many other icons who on top of being you know, 777 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,319 Speaker 1: trans women and sometimes sex workers, were also drag reformers. 778 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: And so I think sometimes the history is muddled because 779 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,799 Speaker 1: language changes so much where people are like, oh, she 780 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: was a drag queen, she wasn't a trans woman, because 781 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: you know, transgender, the term that we use all the 782 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: time nowadays, really didn't come into like public conversation into 783 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: like the late nineties and really didn't pop off like 784 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,279 Speaker 1: on the internet and to like you know, the men 785 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,919 Speaker 1: two thousand's early two thousand tens. And so sometimes our 786 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: history gets forgotten or gets kind of muddled, or it's 787 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,200 Speaker 1: hard to decipher because it's hard to translate actions and 788 00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,840 Speaker 1: identities you know, of forty fifty years ago to like 789 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: to day. Like I feel like every single month there's 790 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,560 Speaker 1: a new way to identify, which I think is beautiful, 791 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,680 Speaker 1: but it also should harken back to our past to 792 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 1: understand that drag and gender has always meshed with each 793 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,880 Speaker 1: other and have always been inside of like this weird coexistence. 794 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 1: I think that drag and gender both playing to the 795 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: idea that nothing is clean cut, and I think it's 796 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: one as it may seem. I think that's a beautiful 797 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 1: thing that I think people are really starting to understand now. 798 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,720 Speaker 1: I think sometimes especially with the on flaught of RuPaul's 799 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: Drag Race, you know, especially those outside the community, but 800 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 1: even inside the LGBTQ community are informed by that. So 801 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: they're thinking trans people can't do drag, They're thinking trans 802 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,280 Speaker 1: people shouldn't be represented, and now we have this public 803 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: conversation where that's completely incorrect and has never been historically accurate. 804 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: And so I think, especially with this last season the 805 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,800 Speaker 1: Drag Race, they're really trying to correct their previous hiccups 806 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,560 Speaker 1: and kind of like explaining to the public, both the 807 00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,839 Speaker 1: queer public and the kind of like cis gender head 808 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: sexual public, that drag and being trans are having a 809 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: trans identity can coexist and they always have been, and 810 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,000 Speaker 1: anybody who tells you otherwise it's just you know, completely 811 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:23,439 Speaker 1: like uneducated. Just to end on a fun note, here's 812 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,240 Speaker 1: a super cut of some of the best catchphrases coined 813 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:33,960 Speaker 1: by queens from Drag Rags. Miss Banjie, miss Banjie, Miss Sandy. 814 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 1: Oh honey, all this shade, Honey shade comes from reading Yes, 815 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 1: Mama boots the house down for your nerves. Work, Look 816 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:49,399 Speaker 1: out range, little girl, I'm jump I'm not joking. Let 817 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 1: it go, tired ass, show girl, show girl. At least 818 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,600 Speaker 1: I am a show girl. Go back to party City 819 00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:04,239 Speaker 1: where you belong, back rolls, hollo it out Party. This 820 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,399 Speaker 1: episode of Ephemeral was written and assembled by Trevor Young 821 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: and produced with Max and Alex Williams. Simon Dunan is 822 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,560 Speaker 1: the author of Drag The Complete Story, available wherever books 823 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,880 Speaker 1: are found, and follow Taylor Alexander on Instagram at t 824 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,759 Speaker 1: A Y l O R a l x n d 825 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,760 Speaker 1: R to keep up with all their events, including Southern 826 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 1: Fried Queer Pride, which works to support trans and queer 827 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: people all across the Southeast. For more on everything you 828 00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,640 Speaker 1: heard here, visit our website Ephemeral dot Show, and for 829 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I heart 830 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,799 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 831 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:46,439 Speaker 1: favorite show.