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Speaker 1: Hi am Kate Hudson, and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.

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Speaker 2: Railvalry.

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Speaker 3: No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, revelry.

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Speaker 1: That's good. Falara Hudson here taking you down the Elbrick road.

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Speaker 1: Have another podcast which leads to OZ. What is OZ?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Maybe OZ is me.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm leading you down a road to myself. You're

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Speaker 1: so deep I can get sometimes when I just my

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Speaker 1: mind wander. I got a week left on this show

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Speaker 1: in Toronto. And if you've listened to understand that I'm here,

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Speaker 1: ready to get home, loving what I'm doing, loving the cast,

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Speaker 1: loving the movie, loving my son being in this movie.

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Speaker 1: But I'm ready to get home. I love you, Toronto.

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Speaker 1: But La is calling me. La is calling me. But

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Speaker 1: in the meantime, we are here, We're doing a show,

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Speaker 1: We're doing a podcast. I'm in my room as I

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Speaker 1: am as so unprofessional. Everyone else has these like incredible

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Speaker 1: setups with neon lights and signs and mics that sort

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Speaker 1: of float in the ether, and you know, here, I

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Speaker 1: am like super analog with a fucking white v neck

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Speaker 1: on horrible lighting in a room. But I guess that's

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Speaker 1: what makes it me. I'm not very flashy. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you know, once I get back to

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Speaker 1: La maybe I'll set something up really dope. But we're

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Speaker 1: on the fly, baby, We're on the go. Anyway. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to spend too much time talking about myself

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Speaker 1: because we have doctor Nadine, doctor Nay in the waiting

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Speaker 1: room doing awesome work involving toxic relationships. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure she she came to it late too.

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Speaker 1: I think she got her PhD pretty late in life.

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Speaker 1: I think obviously her character, she was the inspiration for

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Speaker 1: Wolf of Wall Street, Margot Robbie's character bell Ford Naomi Bellford. Well,

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Speaker 1: without further let's bring her on.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 1: How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm really good? Thank you?

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Speaker 5: Are you good?

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Speaker 1: Where are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm in Pocaton, Florida.

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Speaker 1: Oh nice, You're in the warm. I'm in the freezing cold.

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Speaker 2: I know you feeling right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing a fun movie for Netflix. And I

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Speaker 1: got about a week left and then and then home

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Speaker 1: good and then home and I can't wait. I can't

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Speaker 1: wait to be home.

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Speaker 4: There's no place like home.

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Speaker 1: No, I know, I know. Let's start where you are now, okay,

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Speaker 1: and then we can go back. But you know your patients.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about your patients. Let's talk about what you do.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you specialize in, because I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you could probably help me. So give us a little

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Speaker 1: rundown of sort of your situation, the kind of people

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Speaker 1: that you're helping. And then also, didn't you come to

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Speaker 1: this a little later in life?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, I didn't go back to school till I

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Speaker 4: was thirty nine and got my master's and then got

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Speaker 4: my doctorate. Yeah, I definitely came to this later in life.

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Speaker 4: I'm a late bloomer for sure.

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Speaker 2: And I love what I do though, So I just

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Speaker 2: love it.

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Speaker 4: I help women every single day recognize, heal, and escape

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Speaker 4: from trauma bonds.

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Speaker 2: Relationship.

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Speaker 4: I get women now thanks to Zoom, I get women

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Speaker 4: from all over the world.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So trauma bond, you know, explain for those of us

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Speaker 1: who might not know what that is, you know, explain that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so a trauma bond does any toxic, dysfunctional connection

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Speaker 4: between two emotionally attached people, right, It could be between

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Speaker 4: parents a child.

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Speaker 2: It could be between Boston employee.

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Speaker 4: It could be between friends, but the way I write

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Speaker 4: about it is between mothers. But what makes it pathological

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Speaker 4: is that one of the partners wants power and control

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Speaker 4: over the other partner.

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Speaker 1: And do you find that it usually goes man wants

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Speaker 1: the power over the woman.

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Speaker 4: I think you could be seventy five, twenty five. I

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Speaker 4: think there's definitely women that want power over their men,

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Speaker 4: you know, and do it, and so in that relationship,

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Speaker 4: you usually that person wants control.

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Speaker 2: So they will. So this is the way I say it.

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Speaker 4: The pathological partner, right will lie, arm, exploit, and betray

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Speaker 4: their lover to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure,

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Speaker 4: and status.

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Speaker 1: It's that simple, Okay, whoa, It's simple, but there's all

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Speaker 1: kinds of different caveats and avenues as to how they

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Speaker 1: might achieve that.

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Speaker 4: Correct correct, correct. So yeah, So what happens in the

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Speaker 4: beginning of a trauma bond is that this pathological person

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Speaker 4: I call them Romeo, they come in and they're charming

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Speaker 4: and kind and warm and generous and like so adoring

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Speaker 4: and so that you fall in love because you're like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, I'm at a unicorn. This person is awesome,

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Speaker 4: they meet all my needs, are obsessed with me. But

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Speaker 4: then over time the mask falls and you get to

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Speaker 4: meet dirty John.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that this is a premeditated, calculated situation

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Speaker 1: or does it just happen? Are you with a narcissist

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Speaker 1: who might have good intentions at first, but they can't

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Speaker 1: get away from probably and potentially their own trauma which

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Speaker 1: has led them to be who they are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it can go both ways. I think

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Speaker 2: that sometimes they do.

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Speaker 4: Unconsciously believe that they believe they want to love, but

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Speaker 4: they're just so self centered. But I think a lot

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Speaker 4: of the times it really is calculated and premeditated. And

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you why, because they can act totally differently

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Speaker 4: when they want, and then the second they're alone with

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Speaker 4: their lover, that's when they get controlling and cruel and

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Speaker 4: they lie right to their face. But then they have

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Speaker 4: to go out to dinner and they're just back to

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Speaker 4: their Romeo cells.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems to be it seems like these

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Speaker 1: people may lack empathy, yes right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they definitely lack empathy. They definitely lack remorse and compassion.

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Speaker 4: Because think about it, if you're just a tool on

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Speaker 4: their tool belt. They can't see you as a person

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Speaker 4: and have empathy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting because you know, obviously narcissism, there's

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Speaker 1: degrees of it. I'm sure. Yeah, sometimes I question whether

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Speaker 1: I have some sort of narcissism. I mean, do we

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Speaker 1: all have a little bit of it? Is there sort

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Speaker 1: of some self preservation in being a narcissist?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like we all. I mean, healthy narcissism is okay,

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Speaker 4: I mean healthy self esteem are esteem based upon like

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Speaker 4: your actual accomplishments or what you are.

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Speaker 2: Really capable love.

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Speaker 4: But like a narcissist is much more entitled and grandiose,

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Speaker 4: and they're exploitative.

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Speaker 2: So you can, like, you can be.

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Speaker 4: Selfish sometimes that's normal, Like sometimes you know, self care

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Speaker 4: is selfish, Like it's okay, selfish, But this is like

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Speaker 4: an extreme. This is a pattern of it continually where

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Speaker 4: you're exploiting people, using people, and harming people to get

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Speaker 4: your needs met.

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Speaker 5: Mm hmm gosh.

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Speaker 1: And then the bond comes from the flip side of that, right,

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Speaker 1: So it's it's the like you you know, I think

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Speaker 1: I think you talked about how in your past and

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Speaker 1: sort of what led you down the path that you

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Speaker 1: are on right now is your relationship and how it

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Speaker 1: would be complete, total and utter devastating dog shit and

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Speaker 1: then you would come into your apartment and there'd be

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Speaker 1: a billion roses.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 4: And that's what creates the bond, is that intermittent reinforcement

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Speaker 4: where you know, extreme acts of generosity and kindness but

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Speaker 4: mixed with extreme cruelty. And that's what creates the bond,

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Speaker 4: which seems counter intuitive, but it actually does because you're

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Speaker 4: always hoping for Romeo and that kindness and generosity to

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Speaker 4: come back, so you tolerate, as you say, the dog

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Speaker 4: shit times.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that, you know, there is a certain

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Speaker 1: kind of a person who is more susceptible to sort

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Speaker 1: of being taken advantage of that way, you know, who

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Speaker 1: has They're more susceptible to having that trauma bond, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have two thoughts about that.

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Speaker 4: So, first of all, everybody can be.

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Speaker 2: Conned by a con artist.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, If a con artist is really good and

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Speaker 4: they want to manipulate you, they're going to do it.

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Speaker 4: They're going to read you, they're going to figure out

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Speaker 4: ways to manipulate you. But if if you are a

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Speaker 4: very trusting person, like I was strong and naive, and

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Speaker 4: I just thought everybody was like me. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I could trust this person. They have the same intentions

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Speaker 4: that I have. If you are a very trusting person

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Speaker 4: and you are agreeable and loyal and tolerant, and you

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Speaker 4: fall in love with a pathological person, you're in trouble.

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Speaker 1: And how long did you actually stay in it?

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Speaker 2: For eight years?

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Speaker 1: Eight years? And at what point did you know? Because

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Speaker 1: you are a highly intellectual person, you are most likely

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Speaker 1: very evolved, maybe more so now than then. But was

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Speaker 1: there a moment where you're like, wait a minute, like

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Speaker 1: this is so fucked. I am I shouldn't be here.

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Speaker 1: I'm smarter than this, but I can't. I can't.

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Speaker 4: Oh, there were so many moments like that. I mean,

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Speaker 4: that's the whole thing that you feel in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: You're like, what am I doing?

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Speaker 4: I'm going again myself here to stay connected to this

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Speaker 4: person in this relationship. And my ex's drug addiction was

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Speaker 4: so insane that I was really always focused on that

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Speaker 4: and trying to figure out ways for him to be sober,

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Speaker 4: which didn't work very well. But it really started for

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Speaker 4: me right in the beginning, because when I first met him.

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Speaker 4: He was like, if you don't, if you don't marry me,

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Speaker 4: if you're not going to tell me we're going to

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Speaker 4: marry me, I'm not going to date you. And I

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Speaker 4: was like, what, I'm twenty three. I don't want to

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Speaker 4: get married, Like the goalpost was always moving. And then

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Speaker 4: if you don't, if you don't, if you're not gonna

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Speaker 4: have kids, and I'm not going to marry you. And

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Speaker 4: I was like, what's happening? But I just was rationalized

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Speaker 4: and I was like, oh my god, he just loves

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Speaker 4: me so much.

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Speaker 1: What does your parents say about all this?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: My mother took me to lunch and she was British

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Speaker 4: and she was like, you know, you don't have to

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Speaker 4: do this. And I was like, my mom, I love

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Speaker 4: him so much and she just was like okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And what about your dad. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: your relationship with your parents.

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Speaker 4: My dad was a gambling I mean as a gambling addict,

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Speaker 4: so he was excited because you knew he'd have access

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Speaker 4: to a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: So he was like, go for it, go for it.

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Speaker 1: Not to be too analytical, because I've been in therapy

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Speaker 1: for fucking twenty four years, I've been to the Hoffsman process,

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Speaker 1: like I am. Oh yeah, so yeah, I have and

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Speaker 1: I continue to try to do it, although I should

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Speaker 1: probably get back into therapy. It's funny because I was

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Speaker 1: in the car ride to work today and I'm thinking, man,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's been a minute since I've been in therapy.

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Speaker 1: And I'm an advocate for it, meaning not just when

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Speaker 1: you are, you know, feeling bad about yourself or you

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Speaker 1: have something you need to get through. There's it's more

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Speaker 1: of just sort of a checkup that one should do

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Speaker 1: if they have the means every week?

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Speaker 5: Why not?

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, man, why have I I you know,

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Speaker 1: why am I not in therapy right now?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 5: Why am I not doing this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So gambler, that's right, probably some sort of a hustler.

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Speaker 1: If you're a gambler. I like to gamble. You know,

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Speaker 1: I have my vices. I consider myself a lowercase a addict,

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Speaker 1: and I don't even in many different things. You know, Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I like that, So I can kind of understand that idea.

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Speaker 1: Is there a part of that, you know, that attraction essentially,

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Speaker 1: like this is my father and this is what I want.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that.

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Speaker 2: You know, my dad wasn't that much in my life.

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Speaker 2: He was like, I work a real Disneyland.

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Speaker 4: Dad like literally came and took me to Disney and

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Speaker 4: then I didn't see him that often. Of course, in retrospect,

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Speaker 4: when you think about it, the stock market is just

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Speaker 4: legal gambling. Yeah, right, So there is that risk taking,

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Speaker 4: living on the edge variance to it.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 4: And for me, you know, my was I grew up

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Speaker 4: with a.

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Speaker 2: Who was in the seventies reading young in Freud.

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Speaker 4: And like study wowology. So we were always talking about

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Speaker 4: our feelings. And my family was very psychological and I

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Speaker 4: was in a really calm, peaceful household.

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Speaker 2: So when I first met my ex husband and he's

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Speaker 2: like raging at me and so angry, I'm like, what

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Speaker 2: the I'm like, what's happening? I really didn't know what

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 4: Now, I am from Brooklyn, so I went back, but

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Speaker 4: I was no match for him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but what was the allure? I guess you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? Was it the money and the fun

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Speaker 1: and the sure Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean I was modeling in New York City in

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Speaker 4: the eighties and nineties. My gosh, okay, he was listen.

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Speaker 4: I was twenty two I was twenty three, he was

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Speaker 4: twenty eight. We didn't have a big age difference. I'm

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Speaker 4: from Brooklyn, he's from Queens. He's charming, he's handsome, he's

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Speaker 4: very bright, and.

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Speaker 2: It was easy to fall in love with him.

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Speaker 4: But then as the Romeo mask fell and I got

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Speaker 4: to see this other side of him. That's what happens

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Speaker 4: in the trauma Bot. I'm like, what the hell is happening?

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Speaker 4: Mm hmm, heay, where's the guy I fell in love with?

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Speaker 4: And I had no point of reference, but the way

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Speaker 4: he bathed not that many people would have to see

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Speaker 4: the movie right right, you know, it's pretty out of control.

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Speaker 4: And I think, and I put what happened is I

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Speaker 4: put myself write into therapy at twenty three.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I can't handle this life.

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Speaker 4: Sign lived in a ten thousand square foot house before

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Speaker 4: and had help, and then I couldn't manage him. So

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Speaker 4: I believe therapy saved my life. Yeah, and that's why

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Speaker 4: I became a therapist.

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Speaker 1: When did that mask fall? You know? I mean, how

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Speaker 1: long was it? How long was that beautiful mask on

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Speaker 1: before I started to melt off?

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Speaker 4: I was really only on for six months?

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Speaker 1: Oh shit?

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00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, because six months later we got engaged, and six

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Speaker 4: months later we got married.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm in it.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's why trauma bonds often can be. They're

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Speaker 4: like fast and furious and super intense.

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Speaker 1: Was there ever, were there moments where You're like, I'm

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Speaker 1: fucking out of here?

295
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, like when he ripped the phone out of

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Speaker 4: the wall. I wouldn't I didn't want to have kids

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Speaker 4: right away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: But then, just like a typical trauma bonds, you know,

300
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Speaker 4: I laugh about this, we'd have a fight and then

301
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Speaker 4: there'd be a horse in my driveway.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm make up with me. I'd like, Okay, I

303
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Speaker 2: guess we could work this out.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I'm being raised by a single mother

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Speaker 4: in Brooklyn. You know, we didn't have a lot of money,

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Speaker 4: and so then to come into all this money.

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Speaker 2: Of course, that was a loureene.

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Speaker 1: And fought mm hmmm mm hmmm.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So so that was a that was a big

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Speaker 4: but there was a lot of strings with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And then of course the infidel

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Speaker 1: he starts and everything starts, and then you're just it

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Speaker 1: seems like you just get wrapped up in this tornado. Yeah,

314
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 1: and that funnel is just spinning you around. Even though

315
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Speaker 1: you can get an arm out and you're trying to,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of crawl your way out of this cyclone,

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Speaker 1: it's near impossible. It's just it's spinning too fast.

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Speaker 4: And the thing with him too, is that, you know,

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Speaker 4: in the movie they depicts you know that he was

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Speaker 4: that I was very jealous and he was cheating on me,

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Speaker 4: which I'm sure he was cheating on me. But the

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Speaker 4: interesting part is we never had a fight about a woman.

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Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, but he wrote why is that like that?

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Speaker 2: I never knew.

325
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Speaker 4: He wrote the book like that and made the movie

326
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Speaker 4: like that. But so that's just so interesting. We really

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Speaker 4: thought about the drugs all the time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And did you find yourself, because you seem like a

330
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 1: pretty grounded, compassionate person, did you find yourself having compassion

331
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Speaker 1: for this man as well?

332
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Speaker 2: So much?

333
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Speaker 1: Right? I mean, I would I would assume that part

334
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,800
Speaker 1: of the trauma bond is the one who is experiencing

335
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 1: that trauma is also experiencing at the same time, real

336
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Speaker 1: genuine compassion for this person who's out of control. So

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00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:19,440
Speaker 1: they're almost praying on you know, yes, your softness completely completely.

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Speaker 4: I had so much empathy for him and that's exactly

339
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:28,399
Speaker 4: what they do. He's weaponizing my empathy, right, because of

340
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,719
Speaker 4: course I felt scared for him. You know when you

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00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 4: go to dinner with your husband and all of a

342
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,679
Speaker 4: sudden you get yourself. You go to dinner and you

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00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,440
Speaker 4: don't see him pop ten kailouts, and then you sit

344
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Speaker 4: down to dinner and he's like, oh, how's a second?

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00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,399
Speaker 2: You know what happens? And you have to make a

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Speaker 2: bread pillow for his face because.

347
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, it's just like who would want to do

348
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Speaker 4: that to themselves?

349
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Speaker 5: Yeah?

350
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you never got caught up in that world?

351
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,240
Speaker 2: No, I would take one.

352
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just I don't know.

353
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,880
Speaker 4: I've never had that crazy desire to escape that myself

354
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:07,679
Speaker 4: that much.

355
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Speaker 2: You know, I could have like a balanced sense of

356
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,400
Speaker 2: fun for my monies.

357
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, but no, And when was that moment where you

358
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,240
Speaker 1: sort of found the strength to just be like, I'm out.

359
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 1: Once he got once he got dinged, Well, what happened.

360
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 2: Was that he was the coke turns in. I mean

361
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:26,920
Speaker 2: the Creilutes turned into coke.

362
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 4: And I say, he was cooking crack in my country

363
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 4: kitchen and I was little babies upstairs, and I'm.

364
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 2: Like, okay, this is done. This is done.

365
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,719
Speaker 4: I said to him, I'm not going to sit here

366
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,520
Speaker 4: and want you kill yourself like all your friends do.

367
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 2: Said you have to go to rehab or I'm leaving,

368
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 2: and that's crazy.

369
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,199
Speaker 4: Do all my clothing and jewely into the fireplace and

370
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 4: let them on fire. And was like, you're not leaving

371
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 4: and I'm not getting it's over and you're not going

372
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:56,399
Speaker 4: to tell me what's due.

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Speaker 2: And I just went to my closet and said, God

374
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Speaker 2: give me the strength to do this.

375
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 5: Did you did?

376
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

377
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 2: And I did.

378
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 4: And that's where the movie you see where he gets

379
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,640
Speaker 4: violent with me. It's because I confronted him about that,

380
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,439
Speaker 4: and you see when he drives my daughter, and so

381
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,199
Speaker 4: that was that moment. But I actually jumped in the

382
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 4: car and put had my husband put the garage doory

383
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 4: down to where everybody was fine.

384
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: And then he did get sober.

385
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 4: He did, he did, he went, Yeah, I was almost

386
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,360
Speaker 4: all got killed, but he did get sober and then

387
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:36,119
Speaker 4: he came back. But emotionally I was done. You were Yeah,

388
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 4: and he got arrested. It's like, okay, your ankle wascelet.

389
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 4: Now is my freedom?

390
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 5: Yeah?

391
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 2: Because the power and balance shifted.

392
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, interesting, right, you took the throne essentially.

393
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

394
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, he just couldn't have power over me anymore, so

395
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 4: like I'm done.

396
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: I'm out.

397
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: Was that just so liberating?

398
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 2: You have no idea?

399
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 5: Yeah?

400
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 1: I mean you could take a big, deep breath. It

401
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 1: feels like.

402
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I always I did a post about this with

403
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 4: Tom Cruise in Risky Business when he's on the couch

404
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 4: dancing when his parents leave.

405
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 5: Mm hmmmm.

406
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: It is unwear.

407
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's how I felt.

408
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: And how old were your kids when you actually left

409
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 1: it were three and five? Okay, so they were little,

410
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 1: so there's not a ton of recollection.

411
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 4: No, No, I mean, you know, my kids have a

412
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 4: great relationship with their dad. My son's here, my daughter's

413
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 4: a therapist. Yeah, they have a great relationship with their dad.

414
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 4: And they're clothes. I went to the premiere of the movie.

415
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I would never keep my kids.

416
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, as long as I know that they're safe and

417
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,640
Speaker 4: he's sober and he's being a good dad.

418
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

419
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 1: And at what point, and then I want to get

420
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 1: into sort of how this propelled you into what you do.

421
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: Let's just do that now, actually, because then I'll go

422
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 1: back to sort of your current relationship with your ex husband,

423
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: which I'm assuming it's okay right at this point. Yeah,

424
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 1: And I would assume right now that you would not

425
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: change a fucking thing in your life because of where

426
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: you are now and what it has given you and

427
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: how many people you're actually helping.

428
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I wish.

429
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 2: I wish I could say I had like some big

430
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: grand scheme that I think that all this was going

431
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 2: to happen.

432
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 4: It should have been so obvious to me, but it

433
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,239
Speaker 4: really wasn't. And so I got license, and what was

434
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 4: happening was that.

435
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: The movie came out.

436
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 4: When I got my doctor It was when the when

437
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 4: the movie came out, I got my master's.

438
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: No, I got my doctorate.

439
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: Were you consulted on the movie?

440
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 4: I was not consulted because he wrote a book first.

441
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 4: So the only thing was that I got to meet Margo.

442
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 4: She wanted my accent and I took her to dinner,

443
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 4: and and that was really it. No, it's story, his narrative.

444
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 4: He makes all the money.

445
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's okay, that's fine, whatever, But what percentage

446
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: If you're going to look at that movie and give

447
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: a percentage of what's real and what's not real, what.

448
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 2: Would you say ninety percent is real?

449
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: Is it? Oh? Great?

450
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah?

451
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: Wow yeah? Wow wow. What about the famous Leos scene

452
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: when he's crawling to the car.

453
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 4: That's that's real.

454
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 1: Holy shit, that's real.

455
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: That's real.

456
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 4: I mean I wasn't there because I was waiting the

457
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 4: house and then the car the house. The car came

458
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 4: back crashed and I didn't know because I put it

459
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 4: up bed. And then the police knocked on the door

460
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 4: and I was like, well, they're like, yeah, into an accident.

461
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: No, it's all real.

462
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So you got certified and then you decided

463
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,959
Speaker 1: to become your therapist. How did you find your clientele

464
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: or did they find you?

465
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 4: They think they so so that people started just to

466
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 4: come to because I'm a good therapist. And then once

467
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 4: I started to really focus on helping women, now it's

468
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: just like like wildfire because the very thing I worried about.

469
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 4: I'm like, who the hell is going to want to

470
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 4: come to make the therapy after they see this movie

471
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 4: made happen.

472
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: But then the opposite happens.

473
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 4: Everybody was like, wait, I won't come to you because

474
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 4: you walk your talk like you were listen you came

475
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 4: out here. Yeah, And so it all just worked out.

476
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: No, I was about to I was about to say that,

477
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: because again, I've been in therapy for a million years now.

478
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: I don't know the backstory of all my therapists. Oh,

479
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: there's only a couple, but but I haven't I have

480
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 1: enough of one, because yes, I am the patient. But

481
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: at some at some point, I'm always asking them about

482
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,719
Speaker 1: their lives and They're like, Oliver, this is about you.

483
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't care, Like what what's your deal?

484
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 5: Like?

485
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: How do you handle these things? So I'm always digging.

486
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: But most likely most they're therapists who are, you know,

487
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: giving you professional advice, are doing so through school and

488
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: not necessarily life experience. You know, I would rather be

489
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: with somebody who has lived it as well, especially when

490
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: you are in your lane. You know, it's very specific.

491
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: So if I'm going to go see someone, it's like, oh,

492
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: I want to see this woman who has experienced everything

493
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: that I am now, who has not just you know,

494
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: a degree, but actual street smarts, you know what I'm saying.

495
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that that's alluring, beyond alluring. And you

496
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: might and you probably have a way different perspective than

497
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: a lot of other therapists.

498
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, a lot of times therapists will

499
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 4: really retraumatize women that are in abusive relationships, be like,

500
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 4: are you sure that's really happening. Maybe you're exaggerating, you're

501
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 4: being over reactive, And so I believe them.

502
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: You know it's real.

503
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 4: And I know a lot of people can wear a

504
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 4: mask of sanity and drive you crazy at home, and

505
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 4: so they know I believe them. I have so much

506
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 4: empathy for them, And my husband goes, I know all

507
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 4: your patients are beautiful.

508
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: Help what they are, and I.

509
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 4: Love them, you know, I genuinely love them, and they

510
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 4: know that I'm on their side.

511
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: Do you find sometimes with patients, though, that they are

512
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: maybe projecting something that is sort of a false narrative

513
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 1: or something that they have concocted, and that you have

514
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: to sort of take them out of that to get

515
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: to the real shit.

516
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 4: You know, with this sort of scenario, not that much.

517
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 4: And actually they might not even come in and tell

518
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 4: me everything because they're so embarrassed. In regular therapy, for sure,

519
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 4: you know that that happens, but in this therapy sometimes

520
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: they're just so embarrassed for tolerating it and going back,

521
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 4: and you know, it takes four to seven attempts for

522
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 4: a woman to leave this sort of relationship.

523
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: Wow, is part of this kind of therapy going back

524
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: into their lives and understanding why they are this way?

525
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: Or is it more focused on the current situation?

526
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, mores, more focus on the current I say, we

527
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 4: are in the emotional emergency room doing emotional triage work

528
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 4: because they're almost all in crisis. They're in fear, they

529
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 4: have kids, they got divorce attorneys, they got crazy stuff.

530
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 4: They're getting stalked, their phones are getting time. I mean,

531
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 4: there's just all sort of crazy stuffs. So sometimes if

532
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 4: we've once we've gotten through the crisis, we might go back,

533
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 4: of course, you know, but usually it's real.

534
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: Like okay, yeah, yeah, it's interesting because you do again

535
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: you have to deal with the situations at hand. Yes,

536
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 1: And I can only speak from just sort of standard

537
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: therapy or cognitive behavior therapy anyway. Yeah, but then once

538
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: you dig deeper, you understand sort of why you were

539
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: even in this situation. Right, Because I'm assuming and you

540
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm wrong, that not all women

541
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: are some men are susceptible to these things. There are,

542
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: it's you.

543
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: Know, some are more than others.

544
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: Some are more than others, more than others.

545
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 4: And I break it down in my book like why

546
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 4: certain personality traits lead you? But I but what I

547
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 4: say is that anybody and everybody can really be fooled

548
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 4: by a con artists now at my age.

549
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: But no, right, yeah, exactly. That's a good point actually,

550
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: you know, like life experience of course. Yeah, yeah, when

551
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: when when you're when you're twenty two and you're getting

552
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: your preyed upon, you're way more susceptible than if you're

553
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: in your fifties, right.

554
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 4: Exactly, exactly, So I think age has a bit to

555
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 4: do with it too, And also like how evolved is

556
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 4: the person?

557
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: Are they self aware? Have they been interested in psychology?

558
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 5: If not?

559
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: Yeah? And what was your relationship? What was your first relationship?

560
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: Like after that?

561
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 4: Oh god, it's so much fun. I was dating everybody.

562
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: Oh you were, oh good, so you had a great time.

563
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: I was like.

564
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 4: Thirty two in a ball, I stated, Michael balt It, yeah,

565
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 4: like so many people. And then somebody said to me, Hey,

566
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 4: I have this guy I want you to go on

567
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 4: a blind date with. And I said, oh my god,

568
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 4: I've never gone on a blind date. I said, I'll

569
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: go out with anybody once? How bad could it be?

570
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 4: And now at hease my husband, it's.

571
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: One amazing, that's awesome. But when you were starting to

572
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: date again, were you purposefully trying to just keep it,

573
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: you know, pretty surface, because you're like, yeah, because you

574
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: had was there? Was there PTSD involved? Was was there

575
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: that kind of you know? So yeah, how did how

576
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: were you able to sort of get through that to

577
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: then have a healthy twenty five year relationship. Yeah?

578
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 4: Well, like you know, you mentioned how you went to

579
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 4: like the Hoffmann Institute. After I left my ex, I

580
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: went to a place called the Karen Foundation, and they

581
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 4: have a program there called Breakthrough, which is like a

582
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 4: five day program for people who want to learn how

583
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 4: to set boundaries, learn how to say no, I want

584
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 4: to go back to the family of origin, learn about themselves.

585
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 4: So I did that because I was like, there's no

586
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 4: way in.

587
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: Hell I want to go through that again. Terrified to

588
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: go through that again.

589
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 4: So I checked myself and there so that between all

590
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 4: the years of therapy and that.

591
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: I felt like, Okay, I think I can trust myself.

592
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: You know, that's interesting, It's funny you say that. You

593
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: said trust yourself, not trust someone else, right, right, Because

594
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: that's really what it's.

595
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 4: About, exactly one hundred percent.

596
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you I mean, at the end of the day,

597
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: hopefully we all find trustworthy people lives, but we have

598
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: no control over what that other individual does. That's it,

599
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: And there's something liberating about that if you can really

600
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: get down to that feeling of well, I can't control you.

601
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: I can't control what you're going to fucking do. And

602
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: if I'm going to sort of be all over my

603
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: head about what you might do, I'm only causing myself

604
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: pain that hasn't even happened yet, you know. I mean,

605
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: I've been married for eighteen years, together for twenty three

606
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: or twenty four, you know, Yeah, thank you. We've been

607
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: through our shit, there's no doubt about it. I mean,

608
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: big time stuff, you know, and with my wife, and

609
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: she's had to sort of in her mind sort of

610
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: go through these scenarios and situations where she has to

611
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: let it all go because nothing is certain. Nothing is certain,

612
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: So let's just exists today and make the best of

613
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: the day and not ruminate and catastrophize. Yes, you know,

614
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: because that's only causes harm.

615
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 4: So well said, so well said, right, Because the scariest

616
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 4: thick things live in our mind, right, but when we

617
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: could be present, focused in the here and now and

618
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 4: just say to us like, oh, I'm safe, this is

619
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 4: good right now, I'm going to take it.

620
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: M hmm yeah yeah, so run like hell is that

621
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: your Is that your first book?

622
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: Oh?

623
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 4: It's my first and maybe.

624
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: Oh really, I don't want to do another one.

625
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 4: Oh. I mean, of course, I'm the only like idiot

626
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 4: that wrote a book before AI, right like finished. Yeah,

627
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 4: it was so hard because you're writing about part stuff.

628
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 4: I take four clinical I take four couples that are

629
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 4: trauma bonded, and I leave all their stories about all

630
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 4: the clinical material to life.

631
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: Oh cool.

632
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it was really hard. Honestly, I don't even

633
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 4: know who wrote it. I read I'm like, I wrote this,

634
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 4: but I'm so glad I did it because it's helping

635
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 4: so many people.

636
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: I think that's a great a great way to do

637
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: it because it's and I haven't read it yet, but

638
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: it seems like there's a narrative aspect to it rather

639
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: than just sort of a dry sort of book on

640
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: psychology or exactly.

641
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

642
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 4: And so what happened is that, you know, I sit

643
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 4: in my office and I hear all these insane stories

644
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 4: and narratives and experiences, so I just wove them into

645
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 4: all different characters the names, and let them come to

646
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 4: life all different ages, so different people can relate to it.

647
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 4: And then, like you say, it's a narrative, and then

648
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 4: people can really see themselves in the stories.

649
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, exactly. There's a relatability there for sure. Yes, yes,

650
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: so you talked about you just sort of graised over it.

651
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: But just the sort of the kinds of people who

652
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: might be more susceptible or less susceptible, is that actually

653
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: categorized or there?

654
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yes, yeah. So in twenty nineteen, I read a

655
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 4: great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths. There was great

656
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: research in there, and there's I don't know if you've

657
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 4: ever taken this test, but I can send it to you.

658
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 4: It's the five factor model of personality tests openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness,

659
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 4: and eroticism. I give it to all my patients, and

660
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 4: the research showed that women that scored very high in

661
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 4: agreeableness and conscientiousness were perfect prey. The reason that you said,

662
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 4: those good qualities get weaponized.

663
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 2: Yes, who scores very high in.

664
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: Both conscientiousness too.

665
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, conscientiousness, like meaning, that's how I got my PhD.

666
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 4: Because I'm organized and diligent and I'm driven, and I'm like,

667
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 4: I'm going to get it done.

668
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: Great, but not when you're in a toxic relationship. Yeah,

669
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 2: you're like, I'm going to stay, I'm going to figure

670
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: it out. I'm going to make this work.

671
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

672
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: And it seems like most women are aware that they

673
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: are in this. They are not unaware of it.

674
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah, they're they're they're aware of it.

675
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 4: And I started a trauma bond recovery community and it's

676
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 4: really inexpensive because I really want to democratize, like giving

677
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 4: women access to these resources. Aware of it, and they're

678
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 4: crying because they want to go back, knowing they shouldn't

679
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: go back, but still longing for this person.

680
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.

681
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 2: It's a real mind bend.

682
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 4: Mm.

683
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting. It just sort of warps your

684
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: own psychology, It warps your own values, you know, or

685
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: what you thought, you know, I would I'll never stay

686
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: in something like this. Three years later like oh my god,

687
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: oh what am I doing? I can't get out right?

688
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 4: Women come to me after twenty thirty forty seven.

689
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: Years forty seven years.

690
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 2: And they finally got out.

691
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah jails, No, no, I know, but like then it's

692
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 1: like now what holy shit?

693
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, but and then some younger people come two

694
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 4: years yo, yes, sure you know, but.

695
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, his abuse is physical abuse always part of this

696
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: trauma bonding. No, it's not, it's not.

697
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 4: It's usually coercion, which is like pressuring somebody to do

698
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 4: what they don't want to do. So it's manipulation, gaslighting,

699
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 4: emotional abuse, verbal abuse, line right to somebody's face, financial abuse.

700
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 4: So in nineteen early nineteen seventies, physical abuse became a crime, right,

701
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 4: So then people got smarter because yeah, yeah, I just

702
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 4: got smarter.

703
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that you work primarily with only

704
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: with women, but you know, because I'm a man, I

705
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: wonder you know how that role, how those roles can

706
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: be flipped and reversed, what kind of man it would

707
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: take to stay in something that toxic to where he

708
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: is experiencing that trauma?

709
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: Brank, that's right.

710
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: You have you messed around with that or looked at that?

711
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah.

712
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 4: And I get so many direct messages from men to

713
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 4: that resonate with what I write.

714
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: And again they're highly empathetic people that are very trusting

715
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: and I don't think there's evil in the world and

716
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 2: want to love, and I think from men it could

717
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 2: even be harder because it might be even more shame,

718
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: you know. But yeah, it happens to men too.

719
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: I wonder if I wonder if I don't even know

720
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: this or not. But I was just thinking, like, you know,

721
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 1: just how the empowerment of women, feminism, how women now

722
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: are are taking control, you know, they've found their centers

723
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: and their power. Have we seen a decline in this

724
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: or has it sort of remained steady?

725
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 4: You know, it's I think it's COVID.

726
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: Everything got accelerated, exacerbated.

727
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: Because okay, so you saw a spike because right, because

728
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: people are just forced to be together.

729
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 4: Right, So we know that there was a rise in

730
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 4: gymestic violence incidences due to COVID, So you would think

731
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: that it would be declining, and I think it is

732
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 4: to a point, but.

733
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 2: It's just still so prevalent.

734
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 4: You know, it's still so prevalent because it's not about

735
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 4: the woman being empowered, right, she stays, she doesn't stay

736
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 4: as long, but it's that was a pathological partner and

737
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 4: they don't care whether we're embowered or not.

738
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 5: Mm hmmmm hm.

739
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 4: You know yeah, so our empowerment isn't necessarily changing their

740
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 4: mindset and they're desired to have mind control.

741
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, did your ex husband ever apologize to you?

742
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 5: No?

743
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: Not really, no, in fact no. Well that was one

744
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: of my last strong.

745
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 4: Moments, was after he had that whole scene ensued where

746
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 4: I told him I asked to get sober and he

747
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 4: got violent.

748
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: We were at sushi one night and I never forget it,

749
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: and I said, you know, all that stuff that happened

750
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 2: between us was really painful and horrible, and he was.

751
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 4: Like, it wasn't that bad. And you know what, I

752
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 4: didn't know the word callousness. I never I was young,

753
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 4: but something inside me closed and I was like, that's it.

754
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: It was a seminal moment for me.

755
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 5: Yeah. Wow.

756
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: What about later on?

757
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 5: Though? Well?

758
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 1: What about now? You know? I mean, you guys have

759
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: you guys have a relationship. I'm sure that's so we

760
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: do we do?

761
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 4: You know?

762
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 2: Later on?

763
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 1: Not that you needed it, because it feels like you've

764
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: done your own shit, you know what I mean, Like

765
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: I don't need an apology from my dad who wasn't there,

766
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: and we have reconnected. You know, and things are things

767
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: are are great, and we've talked it out. I don't

768
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: need him to say that that he's so sorry because

769
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: I understand it. I've done the work and it's not

770
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: something that's going to make me whole in any way.

771
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: So not that you need it, but still the idea

772
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: that your ex husband would look inside, especially after sobriety,

773
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: and be like, holy fuck, I was a fucking nightmare

774
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: and I'm so sorry I put you through this.

775
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 4: He has written it in letters, got it, Yeah, But

776
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 4: I don't know that we have like some deep in

777
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 4: depth conversation about it, but he definitely has written it

778
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: in letters.

779
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: And I just chose, you know.

780
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 4: And one thing I can say about Jordan and I,

781
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 4: we put our kids first.

782
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: You know, we're like we're gonna you know. I moved

783
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 2: after I left him.

784
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 4: I moved to California, so I was living in New

785
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 4: York and then I moved to California with my My

786
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 4: current husband lived there and BOARDING came out two years

787
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 4: later to be with his kids. He lived in Manhattan

788
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 4: Beach too. Ironically, we both live in Florida, so we

789
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 4: follow each other around the country, I guess, but no,

790
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 4: we made a conscious decision to be to parent together.

791
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.

792
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's great.

793
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: And there was never contentious between your new husband and Jordan.

794
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 2: No, they Oh my god, they get along so good.

795
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 4: When I when I first met my current husband, he said,

796
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 4: you know, I think I'm going to take Jordan to breakfast.

797
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 4: I was like, what, don't do that. Don't do that,

798
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 4: and he said, I just want you to know who

799
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 4: I am because I'm going to be around your children.

800
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: Ever since then, they've just respected each other.

801
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: Beautiful.

802
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely likes John more than.

803
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 4: Me right now, since I started posting about him all

804
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 4: the time.

805
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: Oh, is he ever?

806
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 4: Like?

807
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: Is he ever?

808
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 3: Like?

809
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: Oh, he's like Dad, come on, babe, Like what the fuck?

810
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 4: He's like, you tell your mother?

811
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: She can't do that.

812
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 4: I was like, tell you, Daddy wrote a book, he

813
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 4: made a movie. I can make a three minute TikTok.

814
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, good for you.

815
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

816
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 4: So I think he's like he's okay with it now.

817
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: Well, it's all a beautiful story at the end. I mean,

818
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: it's healthy. You know, I'm glad to hear that everything

819
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 1: is is good. The kids are fucking good. You know

820
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: you've been through what you've been through. It's created this

821
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: incredible movement for you, and I'm sure you've helped a

822
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: ton of women. And what's next just to continue on

823
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: this path? Do you have anything coming up that's yeah,

824
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: just to.

825
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 4: Continue on this path. And like I said, I sorted

826
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 4: this recovery community online. I wrote an online course for

827
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 4: my book that's in the community. What's next is first

828
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 4: of all, just to enjoy my grandkids, because.

829
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 5: There's right, Yeah.

830
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 4: And just to reach more people. Yeah, you know, democratize

831
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 4: what I do through the course and community and reach

832
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 4: more people.

833
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that because you know, again

834
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: being in therapy, the truth of it is now you know,

835
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: there are these apps and better help, and you know,

836
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: these things that are coming out that are allowing people

837
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 1: who don't have a ton of money to actually seek help.

838
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: The problem with fucking therapies, it's so expensive and there

839
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: are so many people suffering, not just women who are

840
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: in these in these trauma bonding situations, but all across

841
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,479
Speaker 1: the board. Will never be able to afford the help

842
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: that they need to get them better.

843
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: I know, I know. So that's why I made my

844
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: community and course totally.

845
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 4: You know, very accessible, much to my husband, but charge

846
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 4: you that I'm like, because I really want to help people.

847
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's great.

848
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: Because for fourteen ninety nine you could join the community.

849
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: Oh amazing, it's twenty nine ninety nine you can at

850
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: the course.

851
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: So it's is there a website.

852
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 4: Or or how do you can just go to doctor

853
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 4: n A n A Okay, everything there And I have

854
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 4: so many free resources assessments. Amazing because this is I

855
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 4: guess what I was meant to do.

856
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so great. Well, I appreciate you coming on

857
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: and talking. Thank you so much.

858
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 4: We got to do this.

859
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: I know, do you have do you have a do

860
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: you have a podcast? Or no?

861
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 2: I don't.

862
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: Okay, maybe that's next. I know there's a I know

863
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: there's ten billion of them, but like, maybe maybe that's next.

864
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, I think I'm good getting to meet you know,

865
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 4: wonderful people like you.

866
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: So thank you.

867
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,479
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Thank you, all right, take care, take care,

868
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:51,959
Speaker 1: I will, I will, I will, bye bye, cool cool, cool,

869
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: cool doing good things, doing good things. I feel like

870
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: I want to rewatch the movie now. You know, now

871
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: that I have spoken to her, ninety percent of it

872
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: is on point. I haven't seen it in a while either,

873
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: all right. I don't feel like doing any more talking,

874
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna leave. And uh yeah, everyone just loved me.

875
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: I just need everyone to love me, all right.

876
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 5: Peace,