WEBVTT - The Evil Algorithm

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host,

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio

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<v Speaker 1>and I love all things tech and I was listening

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<v Speaker 1>to a recent episode of pod Save America's offline series

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<v Speaker 1>in which journalist Charlie Warzel joined the show to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about Facebook and its role in causing harm on a

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<v Speaker 1>global scale, which inspired me to do this episode. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>before we get started, I guess I should apologize for

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<v Speaker 1>the somewhat click baity title of this episode. We're going

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<v Speaker 1>to be exploring algorithms and their unintended consequences, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>focusing on the Facebook algorithm. That is, the algorithm that

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<v Speaker 1>determines what appears in your news feed. But algorithms by

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<v Speaker 1>themselves are not necessarily good or evil on their own.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. It's kind of like what Hamlet said, Now,

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<v Speaker 1>there's nothing neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start just by defining what an algorithm is. So,

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<v Speaker 1>an algorithm is essentially a set of rules or directions

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<v Speaker 1>that a system follows in order to process information and

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<v Speaker 1>produce results. And that's it. So it's just a set

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<v Speaker 1>of rules. Let's use a really simple analogy to explain this.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's say I've hired you to sit on a bench

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<v Speaker 1>by a road. Say it's a road that gets decent

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<v Speaker 1>but not heavy traffic, And I say it's your job

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<v Speaker 1>to make a tally mark on a sheet of paper

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<v Speaker 1>whenever a silver car drives past you along this road,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're to ignore all other cars, only make a

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<v Speaker 1>tally when a silver car goes by. I just, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>want to see how many tally marks are there at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of a certain amount of time. Let's say

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<v Speaker 1>it's an hour, and I have given you an algorithm

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<v Speaker 1>tally every single silver car that drives past you. So

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<v Speaker 1>you observe the vehicles that drive by you, you follow

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<v Speaker 1>the directions, and that's the whole concept right there. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like a lot of folks, including myself, sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>use the word algorithm as a kind of way to

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<v Speaker 1>save a bit of time, But it also tends to

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<v Speaker 1>create a gap in understanding. Like, you know, the word

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<v Speaker 1>algorithm acts kind of like the curtain between Dorothy and

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<v Speaker 1>the Wizard of Oz. You know something's going on back

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<v Speaker 1>behind the curtain, but you can't actually see what it is,

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<v Speaker 1>so we use the word algorithm to describe it, and

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<v Speaker 1>then we just move on. Now. Part of the reason

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<v Speaker 1>for that is that a lot of companies, big ones

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<v Speaker 1>like Google and Facebook jealously guard their algorithms from critical view.

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<v Speaker 1>To the outsider, it would be impossible to say whether

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<v Speaker 1>the algorithm was working well or if it wasn't, because

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<v Speaker 1>we don't necessarily know what the goal of the algorithm

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<v Speaker 1>is in the first place. We know it is doing work,

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<v Speaker 1>we know it's doing something, it's creating the results that

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<v Speaker 1>we see, but we don't know if it's doing the

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<v Speaker 1>best job at that. So this lack of transparency becomes

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<v Speaker 1>a big issue in some cases, like with Facebook. And

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<v Speaker 1>there are times when an algorithm is technically doing what

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<v Speaker 1>it's supposed to do and it is doing it well

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<v Speaker 1>by that definition, but that there are unintended consequences and

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes really bad ones. I would argue that this is

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<v Speaker 1>what we see with Facebook in particular. It's what's led

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<v Speaker 1>the company Meta, you know, the company that owns Facebook,

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<v Speaker 1>to get into hot water around the world because of

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<v Speaker 1>issues like the spread of misinformation and hate speech. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>to be clear, I'm not saying Facebook engineered an algorithm

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<v Speaker 1>to spread that kind of bad content. Rather, Facebook engineers

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<v Speaker 1>create a system that prioritizes that kind of content because

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<v Speaker 1>that content fulfills other goals. So let's back up a

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<v Speaker 1>bit and really get to grips with what's actually going on. First,

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<v Speaker 1>let us consider what Facebook started out as, because it

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<v Speaker 1>was a much less expansive and influential site when it

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<v Speaker 1>launched way back in two thousand four. Back then, it was,

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<v Speaker 1>in Mark Zuckerberg's own estimation, a tool for Harvard students,

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<v Speaker 1>presumably mostly male ones, to rank the quote unquote hot

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<v Speaker 1>girls on campus. So Facebook, the site has always been

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<v Speaker 1>a creep. It's just now it's a much older and

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<v Speaker 1>much more influential creep. Anyway, running a site costs money.

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<v Speaker 1>There are hosting services and bandwidth fees and other stuff

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<v Speaker 1>that you have to cover, so there needed to be

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<v Speaker 1>a way to offset the costs of running this pretty

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<v Speaker 1>basic social network. In April of two thousand four, Zuckerberg

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<v Speaker 1>introduced flyers and you know f L y e r s.

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<v Speaker 1>These were essentially banner ads on Facebook's homepage. So these

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<v Speaker 1>are the same kind of banner ads that would appear,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, on the top, bottom or sides of any

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<v Speaker 1>website that you visited. The ads were really mostly for

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<v Speaker 1>local businesses, So this was really small potatoes stuff, but

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<v Speaker 1>it meant that there was some money coming in that

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<v Speaker 1>would help offset Facebook's costs. Facebook group pretty rapidly and

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<v Speaker 1>the company received some investment capital, but it needed to

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<v Speaker 1>establish a way to generate more revenue. See, in the

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<v Speaker 1>world of startups, there are a couple of different pathways

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<v Speaker 1>you can try to take. Actually there's more than a couple,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's really only a couple of successful pathways. One

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<v Speaker 1>is to become attractive enough as a product, service, or

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<v Speaker 1>business that some other bigger fish is going to come

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<v Speaker 1>along and scoop you up in an acquisition and you'll

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<v Speaker 1>cash out with millions of dollars. In fact, that fuels

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<v Speaker 1>a ton of the startup culture these days, and I've

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<v Speaker 1>talked about it in the past about how I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's a pretty dangerous and unhealthy trend. But the other

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<v Speaker 1>way is to build a business that generates more money

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<v Speaker 1>and revenue than it costs to operate the business, and

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<v Speaker 1>to build it in such a way that you can

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<v Speaker 1>scale up the business as it grows, making more money

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<v Speaker 1>while also spending more to maintain a larger business. This

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<v Speaker 1>is a really hard thing to do. A lot of

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<v Speaker 1>companies struggle with it, and I'm guessing this is why

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<v Speaker 1>the acquisition culture runs so strong in startups. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>easy to be seen as important enough to acquire. That's

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to downplay that. It is tough. You've

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<v Speaker 1>got to make something that is flashy enough and and

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<v Speaker 1>potentially important enough for someone else to come along and

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<v Speaker 1>say we want that. But that can be easier than

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<v Speaker 1>creating a business model that supports itself throughout the various

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<v Speaker 1>phases of a company's growth. That is really hard to

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<v Speaker 1>do well. Facebook was looking to go that second route,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the actual business route, as opposed to getting acquired,

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<v Speaker 1>and in November two thousand seven, the site introduced Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>Ads Now. That product had a few different facets. One

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<v Speaker 1>was that businesses would be allowed to create Facebook pages

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<v Speaker 1>that could operate in ways similar to an actual human

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<v Speaker 1>beings Facebook page works, and that would give folks the

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<v Speaker 1>chance to quote unquote like a business that they were

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<v Speaker 1>interested in. Another facet was the Facebook Marketplace, which exists

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<v Speaker 1>to this day, and a third was a product called Beacon. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>This product would be one of the first to inspire

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<v Speaker 1>legal action against Facebook. You see, Beacon was a tool

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<v Speaker 1>that would collect data from external websites sites that were

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<v Speaker 1>not Facebook, and send that data back to Facebook. These

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<v Speaker 1>were partnered websites companies that had partnered with Facebook to

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<v Speaker 1>be part of this program. So if you went online

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<v Speaker 1>and you started shopping for shoes, and if you were visiting,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, these sites that were part of this Beacon program,

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<v Speaker 1>your activities would be sent back to Facebook for the

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<v Speaker 1>purposes of targeted advertising, which meant the next time you

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<v Speaker 1>jumped on Facebook, you would start seeing shoe adds. The

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<v Speaker 1>problem was Facebook didn't alert users to this program, nor

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<v Speaker 1>did it allow people the chance to opt out of

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<v Speaker 1>the service, and so Facebook was tracking users even if

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<v Speaker 1>they weren't actively connected to Facebook at the time, as

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<v Speaker 1>long as they were logged in and they were, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>not necessarily logged in and active on the site, but

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<v Speaker 1>like they hadn't logged out of their account, then this

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<v Speaker 1>activity would continue to be tracked as they went to

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<v Speaker 1>other sites. After users brought a class action lawsuit against Facebook,

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<v Speaker 1>the company shut down Beacon in two thousand nine. That

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean Facebook said goodbye to targeted ads. Far from it,

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<v Speaker 1>and that brings us to something really important. Facebook makes

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<v Speaker 1>the majority of its revenue from advertising, and ads only

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<v Speaker 1>make money if there are people to see them. It

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<v Speaker 1>would not make any sense to put up a billboard

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle of Antarctica, right, I mean, no one

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<v Speaker 1>would ever see the billboard. That would just be a

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<v Speaker 1>waste of money. So you've got to put ads where

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<v Speaker 1>people are going to see them. So Facebook's business model

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<v Speaker 1>revolves around getting as many people to see as many

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<v Speaker 1>ads as is possible. So for Facebook, that means getting

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<v Speaker 1>as many people to log into Facebook as they can

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<v Speaker 1>and then keeping those people on Facebook as much as

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<v Speaker 1>is possible. That's the end goal, because it means serving

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<v Speaker 1>more ads to more people. Well, we'll talk about stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like engagement a bit later, but really engagement isn't the

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<v Speaker 1>important bit like that engagement on Facebook. Like, if if

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook could guarantee that it would get the same number

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<v Speaker 1>of ads viewed without worrying about engagement, they would drop

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<v Speaker 1>the whole thing about engagement, trust me. So the important

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<v Speaker 1>bit is really just getting eyeballs on ads. That's it. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>you could argue that the sole purpose of Facebook, at

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<v Speaker 1>least from the business standpoint is just that getting eyes

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<v Speaker 1>on ads. The features, the connectivity, all of that stuff

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<v Speaker 1>is just the bit that brings folks in to use

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<v Speaker 1>the platform. But from a revenue side, it's just about

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<v Speaker 1>getting as many folks to look at ads as as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>That's where the algorithm comes into play. And when people

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<v Speaker 1>talk about Facebook algorithms, they typically mean a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>different ones. One is the way that Facebook determines what

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<v Speaker 1>shows up in a user's news feed. What do you

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<v Speaker 1>see when you log into Facebook. Longtime Facebook users often

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<v Speaker 1>limit the fact that the site no longer posts stuff

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<v Speaker 1>in reverse chronological order on your news feed. You used

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to really do that for real, Like

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<v Speaker 1>you would see the most recent posts at the top,

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<v Speaker 1>and you could just scroll down and you go back

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<v Speaker 1>in time. You would see the older posts, like the

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<v Speaker 1>from most recent to the oldest, and you could get

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<v Speaker 1>caught up. Like you could actually do that, But that

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<v Speaker 1>means that your time on Facebook would be kept too

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<v Speaker 1>fairly short bursts unless you've just got a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>chatty friends who are constantly posting, And since revenue comes

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<v Speaker 1>from having more people seeing the site for as long

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<v Speaker 1>as possible, that's not great for Facebook, right That's why

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<v Speaker 1>the reverse chronological order is not a huge priority for Facebook,

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<v Speaker 1>because even though users might love it, they wouldn't necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>spend as much time on the platform. So the company

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<v Speaker 1>set out to make algorithms that would select content across

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<v Speaker 1>your friends and interests. In an effort to keep users

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<v Speaker 1>glued to the site longer. You might end up missing

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<v Speaker 1>stuff from your friends. In fact, I guarantee that's happening

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<v Speaker 1>to you if you are on Facebook, that you are

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<v Speaker 1>not seeing stuff that some of your friends are posting

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<v Speaker 1>because the algorithm isn't promoting it to you, And it's

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<v Speaker 1>because the algorithm chose to promote something else for you

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<v Speaker 1>to see instead of the stuff that your friends are posting.

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<v Speaker 1>We can also talk about algorithms in the sense of

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<v Speaker 1>advertising algorithms, that being the algorithms that determine which ads

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<v Speaker 1>get displayed to a specific user, But the news feed

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<v Speaker 1>algorithm tends to be the big one that most people

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<v Speaker 1>talk about when they say the Facebook algorithm. So this

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<v Speaker 1>has actually gotten Facebook into trouble a few times, even

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<v Speaker 1>before we started seeing stuff like the Cambridge Analytica scandal,

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<v Speaker 1>or we started seeing the various times that that Congress

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<v Speaker 1>has called Facebook executives to testify about stuff like misinformation

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<v Speaker 1>and hate speech. Way back in two thousand fifteen, content

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<v Speaker 1>sites in general saw a seismic shift because of something

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook did, and this would end up disrupting the entire

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<v Speaker 1>industry of online content, from news organizations to entertainment sites.

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<v Speaker 1>And that shift had a name. It was called pivot

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<v Speaker 1>to video. Just saying those words fills me with dread.

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<v Speaker 1>So making content is hard. I do it nearly every day.

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<v Speaker 1>It can be grueling, you know, writing up long pieces

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<v Speaker 1>takes a lot of time and research and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of specialized talent. If you want to do it well,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean you could just be a content farm and

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<v Speaker 1>dump endless numbers of articles that are hastily written, badly researched,

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<v Speaker 1>and poorly edited. You can do that, Uh it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>you know. You can try and make it up in volume,

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<v Speaker 1>but if you go the quality route, you tend to

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<v Speaker 1>see better results. Uh. And in two thousand and fifteen,

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<v Speaker 1>we saw a convergence of several things that would prompt

0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:23.720
<v Speaker 1>a lot of content companies to change the way they

0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 1>do business. First, AD revenue for owned and operated sites

0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.920
<v Speaker 1>was hurting. So that by that, I mean if you

0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.040
<v Speaker 1>were a media company and you had your own website,

0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 1>you were starting to see lower amounts of traffic, which

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.120
<v Speaker 1>meant you were also seeing lower payouts and ads. It

0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 1>was probably devaluing the ads that were on your site.

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.920
<v Speaker 1>In other words, when companies make these ad deals, they

0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:53.520
<v Speaker 1>negotiate with the advertisers a certain amount per view or

0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 1>per click or per action or whatever the criteria are,

0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 1>and the as a whole, like, if you're doing really well,

0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 1>then you can demand a higher rate. It's kind of

0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.080
<v Speaker 1>like how in the US commercials during the Super Bowl

0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.640
<v Speaker 1>are incredibly expensive because everyone knows that that's where a

0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.959
<v Speaker 1>ton of attention happens to be focused at that particular time,

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 1>So the ad space on a game of the super

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Bowl ends up being really, really, really valuable. The same

0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.200
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing. If your site is doing really well,

0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 1>then you can command a higher price. But at this point,

0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 1>content companies were starting to have difficulty. They were seeing

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.400
<v Speaker 1>there there the value of their ad deals going down,

0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 1>not up. Traffic was going down, not up, And a

0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 1>lot of sites are dependent upon stuff like search engines

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.440
<v Speaker 1>as well. If you rank high in Google, that's really important.

0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.040
<v Speaker 1>The Google algorithm is another example of an algorithm that

0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 1>you could argue could be evil, but it means that

0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.520
<v Speaker 1>there are more chances for people to find your work.

0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.120
<v Speaker 1>If you're ranking high in search, right, someone searches a

0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.000
<v Speaker 1>particular term, your site comes up. That's great for you,

0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.760
<v Speaker 1>and thus more people will end up going to your

0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.280
<v Speaker 1>site and seeing the ads that are on your site,

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.040
<v Speaker 1>and you generate revenue. We saw some companies experiment with

0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 1>stuff like paywalls, you know, getting away from the whole

0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:18.080
<v Speaker 1>advertising thing and saying, well, we will instead uh invite

0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 1>users to pay a subscription to get our content. A

0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.600
<v Speaker 1>lot of users balked at that because they were used

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.720
<v Speaker 1>to getting their content for quote unquote free, though we

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 1>know it wasn't really for free. It was just that

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.640
<v Speaker 1>the money wasn't coming directly out of the user's pocket

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.120
<v Speaker 1>in those cases. Now, a big part of the problem

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.800
<v Speaker 1>was that rather than go on owned and operated sites,

0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.720
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people were just gobbling up content on

0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:46.239
<v Speaker 1>places like Facebook. So social network platforms became a competitive

0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.960
<v Speaker 1>marketplace for content creators, with many trying to find ways

0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.920
<v Speaker 1>to craft their work. Uh. Just so that it would

0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 1>be effective when you share it on social media doesn't

0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.280
<v Speaker 1>mean it would be the best work you've ever made,

0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.320
<v Speaker 1>but rather you were trying to make stuff that was

0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.400
<v Speaker 1>share able. Oh man, I remember this era and it

0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:09.400
<v Speaker 1>was bleak anyway. At the same time, you had smartphone

0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.160
<v Speaker 1>companies that were really coming into their own I mean,

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:17.200
<v Speaker 1>the smartphone was starting to dominate the computer space. They

0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.760
<v Speaker 1>had premiered less than a decade earlier, but the swift

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.880
<v Speaker 1>proliferation of smartphones meant that people were starting to consume

0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 1>content a little bit differently than they had before. A

0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.440
<v Speaker 1>good site would optimize for mobile access, and we started

0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:31.480
<v Speaker 1>seeing people say that the future of the web was

0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.200
<v Speaker 1>really and how it would cater to mobile devices, and

0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:39.560
<v Speaker 1>we saw various content sites looking for ways to cut costs.

0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.160
<v Speaker 1>This was the other big element here. And one way

0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.520
<v Speaker 1>is you can really reduce your writing staff. You can

0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.920
<v Speaker 1>have layoffs, but you still need to make a lot

0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.560
<v Speaker 1>of content or else you have no inventory to sell

0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 1>to advertisers, and then the revenue drives up. And that's

0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 1>what would set the stage for a really big problem.

0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Alex lay More after we take this short break. Okay,

0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.800
<v Speaker 1>this all brings us up to the pivoting to video movement.

0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:20.480
<v Speaker 1>So in early Facebook announced a shift to video, indicating

0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:25.080
<v Speaker 1>that the platform would prioritize video content from third party publishers,

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.680
<v Speaker 1>and that implies that it would simultaneously de emphasize content

0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.159
<v Speaker 1>that wasn't videos. So, if you were a third party

0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.720
<v Speaker 1>publisher and you were making stuff like articles like how

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:37.760
<v Speaker 1>staff works is a great example. I used to write

0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.320
<v Speaker 1>for how Stuff Works. And if you were doing these

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.320
<v Speaker 1>articles and you were hoping that at least some of

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.160
<v Speaker 1>your traffic was going to come from social networking sites,

0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 1>you hear this news and you think, oh, well, now,

0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.080
<v Speaker 1>even if I write a great article and if not

0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.080
<v Speaker 1>given a fantastic title and it's really share able, the

0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.280
<v Speaker 1>Facebook algorithm is going to de emphasize it because it's

0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.000
<v Speaker 1>not video. It's written con tent, and the Facebook algorithm

0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:06.119
<v Speaker 1>has decided to promote video content instead. Uh. There were

0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot of content companies that legitimately got real nervous

0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.000
<v Speaker 1>about this for good reason. So the message appeared to be,

0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.760
<v Speaker 1>if you want your content to be seen on Facebook,

0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:20.840
<v Speaker 1>you should probably put it in short form video content form.

0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.720
<v Speaker 1>And now, now why would Facebook even do this? Well,

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:25.919
<v Speaker 1>one big reason is that if you click on a

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:30.480
<v Speaker 1>link in Facebook to go read an article, you leave Facebook.

0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.719
<v Speaker 1>And since the revenue model for Facebook is again all

0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.640
<v Speaker 1>about keeping as many eyeballs on the site for as

0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 1>long as possible. That means Facebook hates that but video

0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.640
<v Speaker 1>and Facebook could build a media player, and they did

0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 1>that could work within the news feed and just host

0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.280
<v Speaker 1>videos natively on the Facebook site so you didn't go

0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.280
<v Speaker 1>away from Facebook to watch the videos. They played within

0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.440
<v Speaker 1>the Facebook page, so people could just click on those

0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.880
<v Speaker 1>videos and watch them and not leave face book. Facebook

0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.120
<v Speaker 1>loved that idea. If the user news feeds just filled

0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.000
<v Speaker 1>up with video after video and all of them called,

0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, Facebook home, even though the actual content was

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.360
<v Speaker 1>coming from other companies, well, that would just work out

0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 1>fine for Facebook. The shift to video would have an

0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.400
<v Speaker 1>enormous impact on content companies. Several companies began cutting back

0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.520
<v Speaker 1>on staff, keeping a small group of writers and editors

0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.119
<v Speaker 1>whose main job wasn't to publish articles, but rather write

0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 1>and produce as many videos as possible. I saw this

0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.399
<v Speaker 1>happen in front of my own eyes. But that's a

0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.960
<v Speaker 1>story for a different time. Anyway, a lot of talented

0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.080
<v Speaker 1>people found themselves out of a job as dozens of

0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:46.480
<v Speaker 1>content companies made the pivot to video. You also heard

0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 1>a lot of stories about this is kind of around

0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.560
<v Speaker 1>the same time where the perception of journalism was taking

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 1>a pretty big hit, like people were starting to say

0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.240
<v Speaker 1>that journalism was dead. That kind of ties into this

0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.600
<v Speaker 1>too well. Anyway, companies chose to pivot to video in

0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.760
<v Speaker 1>part because they could have a smaller video department than

0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.399
<v Speaker 1>a writing staff. Often that would also involve bringing in

0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:13.040
<v Speaker 1>new employees out of college to work on the video team,

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.119
<v Speaker 1>because new employees often have lower salaries than more established

0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.840
<v Speaker 1>employees who might be let go. But companies wouldn't have

0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.479
<v Speaker 1>done this unless the revenue side was also in place, right, Like,

0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.560
<v Speaker 1>it's one thing to cut costs, but it means nothing

0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:29.720
<v Speaker 1>if you do that if you're not also bringing in

0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.439
<v Speaker 1>the cash. You have to be bringing in revenue. And

0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.719
<v Speaker 1>the problem was the industry was responding to a misrepresentation

0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.760
<v Speaker 1>of the facts uh an error in other words, or,

0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:47.000
<v Speaker 1>if you are particularly cynical, a lie. See. In January,

0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:51.119
<v Speaker 1>Facebook presented some pretty startling figures saying that Facebook users

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.560
<v Speaker 1>were watching more than a billion videos per day. What's more,

0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:59.440
<v Speaker 1>the company said that users were watching tons of ads

0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.359
<v Speaker 1>in the videos in the process, that, in other words,

0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.600
<v Speaker 1>producing videos to publish on Facebook would be a great

0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:07.720
<v Speaker 1>way to show a lot of ads to a lot

0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.639
<v Speaker 1>of people, and the revenue would come flowing in for

0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:15.160
<v Speaker 1>everyone concerned. But things were not quite playing out that way.

0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Some companies had gone so far as to ditch their

0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:23.119
<v Speaker 1>owned and operated sites and they relied exclusively on building

0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.800
<v Speaker 1>out content to live on sites like Facebook, which I

0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:28.919
<v Speaker 1>need to say, in case you didn't pick it up

0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.920
<v Speaker 1>from my tone, is a terrible idea. They were trying

0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:36.280
<v Speaker 1>to respond to a rapidly shifting landscape, so in their

0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:38.800
<v Speaker 1>minds they were saying, well, if no one's coming to

0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:43.000
<v Speaker 1>our website, then we're just wasting money maintaining it, so

0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:45.919
<v Speaker 1>let's just change over to Facebook. So the pivot to

0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.960
<v Speaker 1>video phrase would also end up taking on an additional meaning.

0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.479
<v Speaker 1>A couple of them, for example, one of them was

0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.720
<v Speaker 1>a cheeky way to refer to layoffs. You know, layoffs

0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:57.800
<v Speaker 1>are coming up. It's because the company is quote unquote

0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:03.800
<v Speaker 1>pivoting to video. Um, so that that's kind of tells

0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:05.879
<v Speaker 1>you all you need to know about that particular phrase,

0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:11.359
<v Speaker 1>like it became a euphemism. Meanwhile, the revenue numbers weren't

0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.560
<v Speaker 1>actually matching up with what was to be expected based

0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.840
<v Speaker 1>upon Facebook's kind of sales pitch to the industry, and

0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:22.640
<v Speaker 1>in February two sixteen, Facebook essentially said, whoops are bad.

0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.639
<v Speaker 1>Remember when we talked about how many ads the average

0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.840
<v Speaker 1>person was watching in videos, It turns out we overestimated

0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.160
<v Speaker 1>that a bit, perhaps by as much as eighty percent.

0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.280
<v Speaker 1>So imagine for a moment that you want to open

0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.120
<v Speaker 1>up a business. Let's say it's a bakery and you're

0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.640
<v Speaker 1>looking for the perfect place to locate it. And you

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.399
<v Speaker 1>have a realtor who tells you that they have a

0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:48.480
<v Speaker 1>spot that's in an area that gets a ton of

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.280
<v Speaker 1>foot traffic, and it's ideal for your location, it's in

0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:54.960
<v Speaker 1>your price range, it's ready to go. So you signed

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 1>the deal, you rent out the spot, you build out

0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.359
<v Speaker 1>your bakery. But then you find out the realtor quote

0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:03.879
<v Speaker 1>unquote or estimated the foot traffic by That would be

0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:07.040
<v Speaker 1>a huge blow to your bakery business, right, I mean, like,

0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.800
<v Speaker 1>now you don't have that foot traffic to depend upon

0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:12.880
<v Speaker 1>to get customers. It's gonna be way harder. Doesn't mean

0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.040
<v Speaker 1>that you've necessarily outright failed, but you're not going to

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.320
<v Speaker 1>have the path to success you thought you were. You

0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.119
<v Speaker 1>might not even be able to stay in business. Well,

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:27.119
<v Speaker 1>here you had all these advertising companies that had banked

0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:29.480
<v Speaker 1>on this, and all these content companies that had put

0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:32.840
<v Speaker 1>all their eggs in the Facebook video basket. Some of

0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.960
<v Speaker 1>the content companies no longer had their own websites, so

0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:40.359
<v Speaker 1>they had really decided to throw all in on short

0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.480
<v Speaker 1>video content that being the future of content creation. And

0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:47.000
<v Speaker 1>it turned out that Facebook had fudged, or at the

0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.639
<v Speaker 1>very least misinterpreted the numbers. A lawsuit in two thousand

0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 1>eighteen alleged that Facebook learned of this overestimation error earlier

0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.440
<v Speaker 1>but kept it a secret, not admitting to the problem

0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:03.720
<v Speaker 1>until it became unavoidable. In fact, the lawsuit alleged that

0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:09.439
<v Speaker 1>the overestimation wasn't six like you know, Facebook, uh. The

0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:11.720
<v Speaker 1>argument was that they or Facebook had said that it

0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:15.440
<v Speaker 1>accidentally overstated the numbers of people who are watching ads

0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.000
<v Speaker 1>by six. The lawsuits said, no, no, no, it was

0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:22.480
<v Speaker 1>more like you you misrepresented it by a hundred fifty

0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:27.960
<v Speaker 1>to nine hundred percent, drastically overstating how many people were

0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:32.240
<v Speaker 1>watching ads in these little videos. Facebook would eventually settle

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.959
<v Speaker 1>with advertisers out of court, agreeing to pay around forty

0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:39.760
<v Speaker 1>million dollars to the advertisers, but the content companies were

0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of left in the lurch. Now, during this era,

0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:46.600
<v Speaker 1>from around late two thousand fourteen to two thousand sixteen

0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 1>or so, Facebook's algorithm was favoring video over other types

0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:54.520
<v Speaker 1>of content. But since people weren't actually watching an endless

0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:57.960
<v Speaker 1>stream of videos with ads, that meant that the strategy

0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:02.120
<v Speaker 1>of video wasn't working. It wasn't working for the content companies,

0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:06.159
<v Speaker 1>and more importantly, for Facebook, it wasn't working for Facebook.

0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.840
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't keeping people on Facebook the way they wanted

0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:12.640
<v Speaker 1>it to, and so the company would change its algorithm.

0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Now you could say that Facebook pivoted away from video. Meanwhile,

0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:20.440
<v Speaker 1>all those companies were, you know, left behind. And granted,

0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.840
<v Speaker 1>there were tons of folks who had been saying, you know,

0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:26.480
<v Speaker 1>don't do this, and then they could say I told

0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:30.199
<v Speaker 1>you so to the people that were relying on a

0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:32.760
<v Speaker 1>third party. You know, there are a lot of people

0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:34.879
<v Speaker 1>who say that's a bad idea to rely on a

0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:38.880
<v Speaker 1>third party for distributing your content, that if you don't

0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:42.640
<v Speaker 1>own it, when something changes your you can be hurt.

0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:45.480
<v Speaker 1>And this happens all the time. It happens with Facebook,

0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:48.680
<v Speaker 1>it happens with Google, it happens with YouTube. Every time

0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:51.560
<v Speaker 1>there's a change in the algorithm, you'll hear about how

0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:56.359
<v Speaker 1>certain sites benefit or certain content creators benefit and others suffer.

0:25:57.000 --> 0:25:59.199
<v Speaker 1>But you know the fact is that a ton of

0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:03.680
<v Speaker 1>folks jumped on that bandwagon already and they were all

0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:08.560
<v Speaker 1>hit negatively by this whole uh shift. Anyway, let's talk

0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:12.760
<v Speaker 1>about what Facebook's shift in its algorithm actually meant. Now.

0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:14.880
<v Speaker 1>I have to talk about this kind of in vague

0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:18.080
<v Speaker 1>and high level ways because Facebook, like Google, is not

0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:21.080
<v Speaker 1>transparent about its algorithms. Now we know a lot of

0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:24.280
<v Speaker 1>stuff because of the leaked internal documents that came to

0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:27.280
<v Speaker 1>light recently, but the company has never been super upfront

0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:30.159
<v Speaker 1>with how much you know or how it determines the

0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:34.960
<v Speaker 1>content you've seen on your news feed. Generally speaking, Facebook

0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:38.720
<v Speaker 1>shifted its focus towards content that quote unquote drives engagement.

0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:42.400
<v Speaker 1>That is, content that seems to inspire people to interact

0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:46.080
<v Speaker 1>with that content in some way, like leaving a comment

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:50.600
<v Speaker 1>or clicking like or dislike, or sharing a post of

0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:55.240
<v Speaker 1>Facebook really loves it when people share posts. The actual

0:26:55.440 --> 0:26:59.399
<v Speaker 1>content of the post doesn't matter to Facebook. They are

0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.639
<v Speaker 1>content agnostic when it comes to that. What matters to

0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:06.639
<v Speaker 1>Facebook is that people are engaging with that content and

0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:10.600
<v Speaker 1>thus spending more time on the platform. That yeah, that's

0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:13.600
<v Speaker 1>what it really boils down to. If you're engaging in content,

0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:17.160
<v Speaker 1>it means you're still on Facebook. You haven't left. And

0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:19.240
<v Speaker 1>like I said in the beginning, at the end of

0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:22.480
<v Speaker 1>the day, that's what it's all about. Facebook's just concerned

0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:24.560
<v Speaker 1>with keeping as many people on the platform for as

0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:27.920
<v Speaker 1>long as possible and that's it. So promoting material that

0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:30.159
<v Speaker 1>gets people to spend more time on the platform just

0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:35.199
<v Speaker 1>makes sense from that business perspective. Unfortunately, one of the

0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:38.520
<v Speaker 1>crappy things about humans is that we tend to respond

0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:43.560
<v Speaker 1>with or to outrage more readily than just about anything else.

0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:47.720
<v Speaker 1>If something makes you mad, you're way more likely to

0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:50.520
<v Speaker 1>act on that, and a lot of posts that quote

0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:56.400
<v Speaker 1>unquote drive engagement are really all about outrage from different perspectives.

0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:59.359
<v Speaker 1>Like a post could be about how a certain group

0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:02.200
<v Speaker 1>of people are awful. Whether those people are awful or

0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 1>not doesn't matter. It's the fact that someone has made

0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:08.520
<v Speaker 1>a post saying that. That's what matters. So the people

0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:12.440
<v Speaker 1>who agree with the post, who might harbor strong negative

0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:15.359
<v Speaker 1>feelings about the people who are mentioned in the post,

0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:19.600
<v Speaker 1>they chime in others who sympathize with the people you

0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:23.160
<v Speaker 1>singled out, maybe they are members of that group. They

0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:26.040
<v Speaker 1>leap to the defense or they go on a counter

0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:29.920
<v Speaker 1>attack against the person who posted it. There's enough outrage

0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:32.080
<v Speaker 1>to go around, so you end up with a bunch

0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:36.320
<v Speaker 1>of angry people waging battles across Facebook comments sections, and

0:28:36.359 --> 0:28:39.760
<v Speaker 1>the algorithm, seeing that certain posts are generating a ton

0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:44.560
<v Speaker 1>of quote unquote engagement, steps it up to promote those

0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:48.040
<v Speaker 1>posts into more news feeds and thus spreads them further

0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:50.800
<v Speaker 1>and wider. Because if the engagement is going up, it

0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:53.400
<v Speaker 1>means more people are spending more time on Facebook, so

0:28:53.560 --> 0:28:56.120
<v Speaker 1>there are more ads to serve. Now there's a lot

0:28:56.200 --> 0:28:58.960
<v Speaker 1>going on here from a sociological standpoint, right. I mean,

0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:03.600
<v Speaker 1>we've seen hates speech, racism, and misogyny spread like wildfire

0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:07.040
<v Speaker 1>across Facebook. And while the battles in the comments rage,

0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:10.040
<v Speaker 1>the algorithm just keeps stirring things up. We have to

0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:14.520
<v Speaker 1>remember there are real world consequences to this online activity.

0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:18.160
<v Speaker 1>People and vulnerable populations can be made to feel unsafe.

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:21.440
<v Speaker 1>That's a powerful and destructive thing. Folks can be driven

0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:25.560
<v Speaker 1>to extremist views, joining echo chambers that reinforce beliefs and

0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:29.960
<v Speaker 1>stereotypes that are outright harmful. People who are neither targeted

0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:34.040
<v Speaker 1>nor pulled into groupthink might find themselves just distressed over

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.360
<v Speaker 1>the whole thing. It's pretty ugly stuff. And this is

0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:41.520
<v Speaker 1>how misinformation and hate speech takes hold on Facebook. The algorithm,

0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:45.960
<v Speaker 1>which is again content agnostic, recognizes that whatever is being

0:29:46.000 --> 0:29:49.320
<v Speaker 1>posted is effective, and that's all that really matters, so

0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:52.920
<v Speaker 1>we get an amplification chamber. Now, don't think anyone at

0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:56.160
<v Speaker 1>Facebook necessarily saw this coming, at least not early on,

0:29:56.680 --> 0:29:59.200
<v Speaker 1>or that the folks who worked on the algorithm intended

0:29:59.240 --> 0:30:01.760
<v Speaker 1>it to spread hard, full material in a way that

0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:05.480
<v Speaker 1>is alarmingly effective. I think they just didn't bank on

0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:08.000
<v Speaker 1>human nature being what it is, or the fact that

0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:12.320
<v Speaker 1>you have certain agents out there, Russian backed and Chinese

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.760
<v Speaker 1>backed agents who, once they figured out how to game

0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:20.120
<v Speaker 1>the system, would flood Facebook with posts designed to drive

0:30:20.200 --> 0:30:24.040
<v Speaker 1>engagement and spread misinformation and thus get caught up in

0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:28.160
<v Speaker 1>this algorithm promotion and spread harmful messages. But the fact

0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.600
<v Speaker 1>remains that this is what we're seeing play out. Facebook

0:30:31.640 --> 0:30:35.080
<v Speaker 1>has attempted to address this with various content moderation strategies,

0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:37.760
<v Speaker 1>but the company does so while also trying to walk

0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:41.360
<v Speaker 1>a fine line and not trigger criticism from various sources

0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:44.520
<v Speaker 1>such as the conservative right. The fear is that too

0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:47.800
<v Speaker 1>much moderation will be perceived as censorship, and that the

0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:52.680
<v Speaker 1>company is actively trying to silence conservative voices. Facebook has

0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:55.920
<v Speaker 1>been the target of such criticism on multiple occasions, so

0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:58.640
<v Speaker 1>the solution tends to be to use a very light

0:30:58.720 --> 0:31:03.240
<v Speaker 1>touch when moderating content. Meanwhile, the messages continue to populate

0:31:03.280 --> 0:31:06.640
<v Speaker 1>Facebook users news feeds. Now. I called this episode the

0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:09.920
<v Speaker 1>evil Algorithm, And again, I don't necessarily think an algorithm

0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:12.960
<v Speaker 1>is on its own evil, but I do think continuing

0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:17.320
<v Speaker 1>to rely on an algorithm that is demonstrably causing harm

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:21.320
<v Speaker 1>is pretty darn evil. At the very least, it is

0:31:21.400 --> 0:31:25.960
<v Speaker 1>unethical and irresponsible. However, you know, again, it's like at

0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the very heart of Facebook's business strategy. And that was

0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:34.320
<v Speaker 1>something that that Charlie was saying on Pod Save America

0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:39.000
<v Speaker 1>that the very core of Facebook's purpose, like it's it's

0:31:39.280 --> 0:31:43.640
<v Speaker 1>mission as far as a business is concerned, is at

0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:47.960
<v Speaker 1>odds with you know, not causing harm, like that those

0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:51.600
<v Speaker 1>two things can't really coexist because of just the way

0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 1>it has evolved from this site. That was meant to

0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:59.760
<v Speaker 1>rank the attractiveness of female students at Harvard. Who would

0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:03.400
<v Speaker 1>have thought that's such a thing could go so horribly wrong. Anyway,

0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:07.280
<v Speaker 1>that's it for this episode. I really wanted to lay

0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:10.240
<v Speaker 1>it out because I feel like when we talk about algorithms,

0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:14.080
<v Speaker 1>we get so so lucy goosey with our words that

0:32:14.280 --> 0:32:17.720
<v Speaker 1>it just becomes a like a blanket term that doesn't

0:32:17.800 --> 0:32:20.920
<v Speaker 1>really mean anything. If you have suggestions for topics I

0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:23.560
<v Speaker 1>should cover on future episodes of tech Stuff, please reach

0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:25.280
<v Speaker 1>out to me. The best way to do that is

0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:28.000
<v Speaker 1>over on Twitter. To handle for the show is text

0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:32.600
<v Speaker 1>stuff hs W and I'll talk to you again really soon.

0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Text Stuff is an I Heart Radio production. For more

0:32:40.920 --> 0:32:44.320
<v Speaker 1>podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app,

0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:47.600
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.