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Speaker 1: Hey, Aaron, Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast

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Speaker 1: with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden and Joe.

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Speaker 1: Happy daylight savings time. It's that time of year, thankfully,

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Speaker 1: a little more daylight at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting was, you know in spring training, guys used

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Speaker 1: to I don't know if this happened to you, Your

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Speaker 1: guys would show up late because they forgot to move

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Speaker 1: their clocks. Now the clocks are all pretty much automated.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I listen.

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Speaker 3: I am such an advocate and keep reading about possibly

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Speaker 3: keeping us on that or not or even the other

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Speaker 3: the standard time. I love the daylight savings time. I

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Speaker 3: guess what I keep reading in there's probably some substance

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Speaker 3: to it is about kids walking to school in the

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Speaker 3: morning as.

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Speaker 2: Being one of the big detriments to doing something like that.

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Speaker 3: But they're doing it for years right now, for a

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Speaker 3: couple of months at least, so anyway, I really did

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Speaker 3: on it. I think it's great. I love the extended days.

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Speaker 3: Just sitting around back in Pennsylvania. Want to get up

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Speaker 3: there for this summer. It's like to like nine o'clock

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Speaker 3: sometimes later than that, it seems, and it's just a

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Speaker 3: it's an uplifting, up upbeat kind of situations. I'm all

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Speaker 3: about daylight savings time. You have more time on the

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Speaker 3: golf course too, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't mention that. Hey, I listen. Unfortunately, we

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Speaker 1: have talked a little bit more about pitcher injuries, and

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Speaker 1: you know, we've talked a lot about that. We've talked

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Speaker 1: at the start of spring training about how this is

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous time of year for pitchers. The incidents

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Speaker 1: of pitcher injuries is highest in spring training. Last four years.

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Speaker 1: It actually has gone down after opening Day, but the

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Speaker 1: rates keep going up in spring training. And this time

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Speaker 1: it got Garrett Cole. This is a rough one, Joe,

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Speaker 1: Garrett Cole, Tommy John surgery obviously will miss this twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five season, maybe carry into the twenty six season.

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Speaker 1: Thirty four years old, not getting any younger. Had been

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Speaker 1: one of the most dural boll pitchers in the game.

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Speaker 1: Right since twenty fifteen, he threw more two hundred innings

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Speaker 1: than any other pitcher in baseball, six two hundred inning seasons.

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Speaker 1: No one else even has five. And he goes down.

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Speaker 1: Give me your take on what this means for the

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Speaker 1: new York Yankees Joe, because that was I don't want

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Speaker 1: to say a given because Garrett did miss the first

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Speaker 1: couple of months last year with elbow inflammation, but man,

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Speaker 1: that's a backbone to that pitching staff will not be

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Speaker 1: there for New York.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this could be really a tough one overcome. Last

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Speaker 3: year when he went down, the popular opinion was that

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Speaker 3: he was going to come back. Now this year, you know,

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Speaker 3: he's not coming back. So during the latter part of

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Speaker 3: the season, they're still going to have to replace Garrett

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Speaker 3: colling up, maybe just for a couple months like it

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Speaker 3: was last year. And then they also lost heel already

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Speaker 3: he's already down. I know it's not as severe or

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Speaker 3: as lengthy possibly, but nevertheless they're missing him too. So

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Speaker 3: now you're going to get into Stroman, who they didn't

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Speaker 3: even they try to trade in the off season now

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Speaker 3: of a sudden becomes pertinent. So the kid Warren pitched

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Speaker 3: OK last night, little bit of command issues, it's a

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Speaker 3: big deal. I don't think it's little deal because you

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Speaker 3: not only lost Coley, you lost Soto. You know, that's

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Speaker 3: two really big parts of last season that are gone

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Speaker 3: for this year. And to think that somebody's just gonna

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Speaker 3: step up and walk in there. It's just very hard

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Speaker 3: to imagine that that's going to happen. So it's one

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Speaker 3: of those situations where as a group, this is a

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Speaker 3: group kind of thing. And I think Aaron Judge being

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Speaker 3: the captain of the team is very useful right now,

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Speaker 3: very pertinent right now, maybe even more so than at

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Speaker 3: other times when things are going well. The kind of

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Speaker 3: example he sets, the kind of conversation, the narrative that

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Speaker 3: he does set is gonna matter, I mean, and Boonie's

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Speaker 3: gonna do it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I love.

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Speaker 3: Brian Cashman's candor and the press. I saw him at

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Speaker 3: the AVA the other night at our restaurant. We had

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Speaker 3: a nice conversation. He's just full of candor.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 3: The guy just he just tells you what's on his mind.

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Speaker 3: And that's that's what I really think about Brian Cashman.

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Speaker 3: So I like that part about it. I think he's

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Speaker 3: gonna he will, He'll sift through all the bs and

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Speaker 3: just try to do what he thinks is right.

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Speaker 2: But it's a tough one. Man.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna have to somebody come up out of nowhere.

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Speaker 3: I got acquisitionally, don't I don't even know what that

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Speaker 3: would be. People talking about Dylan Ceas and others. Why

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Speaker 3: why would the Padres give it up right now? I

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Speaker 3: don't understand that there have to be something under the

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Speaker 3: hood that we're not aware of.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, the Yankees are kind of in trouble right now.

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Speaker 3: I don't see the light at the end of the

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Speaker 3: tunnel not being attached to the oncoming train.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna be hard, so we'll see.

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Speaker 3: But I think Judge right now really earns his no

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Speaker 3: pun intended stripes because being the captain now is really important.

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Speaker 1: That's a great point, and he has set a really

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Speaker 1: good culture there. Quick story before we move on with

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Speaker 1: pitching here about Judge. When the Yankees drafted Anthony Valpy junior,

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Speaker 1: Aaron Judge called up Volpi and welcomed him to the

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Speaker 1: team and quote unquote the family right. Vulpi then turns

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Speaker 1: around does the same thing when the team drafted George

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Speaker 1: Lombard Junior. I think that's just so cool paying it

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Speaker 1: forward like that. In fact, recently the Yankees played spring

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Speaker 1: training game on the other side of the state. They

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Speaker 1: go over to the East Coast and play the Cardinals,

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Speaker 1: and a couple of other teams, and Volti went up

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Speaker 1: to George Lombard Junior, another first round pick. I mentioned

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Speaker 1: he talked to him when the Yankees drafted him and said,

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Speaker 1: you're coming with me, and instead of taking to team bus,

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Speaker 1: Anthony Voltpi drove him over to the other side drove

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Speaker 1: him back. So that's the kind of example that Aaron

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Speaker 1: Judge sets. So I agree there's no panic in this team,

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Speaker 1: but I do think they're going to have to scour

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Speaker 1: the universe and maybe that guy get in the line

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Speaker 1: is Sandy Alcantra of the Marlins, because listen to the Orioles,

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Speaker 1: they've had pitching injuries already with Grayson Rodriguez going down.

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Speaker 1: The Mets have had injuries with Sean Menaya and Frankie Montas.

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Speaker 1: Those are teams that are trying to play the seventh

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Speaker 1: month of the season that just don't fill gaps. They

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Speaker 1: need someone at the front of the rotation. So we'll

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Speaker 1: see where that goes. Yeah, Nicle is interesting, Joe, because

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Speaker 1: I never saw anything mechanically that was a red flag

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Speaker 1: for me. With Garrett. I know some people have mentioned

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Speaker 1: the cutter. He went to that pitch three years ago,

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Speaker 1: outed the cutter last year, he actually doubled his cutter use.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that was because the fastball was down a tick

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Speaker 1: and he threw a few more cutters. Still not a ton,

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Speaker 1: about fifteen sixteen percent. But I'll tell you a quick

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Speaker 1: story about Garrett and the way he developed as a pitcher.

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Speaker 1: When he finally won his first cy young, because he

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Speaker 1: was in the race for a few of them, his

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Speaker 1: dad came up to me and he said, Garrett wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be here without you. And I'm thinking, what in the

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Speaker 1: world is he talking about, And he said, growing up,

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Speaker 1: Garrett read a lot of things that I had written

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Speaker 1: about not packing on too many innings for young pitchers,

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Speaker 1: basically as the body still develops. I'm talking about guys

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Speaker 1: even early twenties. Right to me, it's like if you

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Speaker 1: want to run a marathon, which is a two hundred

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Speaker 1: inning season for a pitcher, you don't go out there

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Speaker 1: and run a marathon. How do you get there. You

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Speaker 1: train to run the marathon. You add miles to get there,

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Speaker 1: You staircase your workload. So for years practice and the

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Speaker 1: guys who really ramped up the innings with a big

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Speaker 1: jump from year to year were the ones more prone

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Speaker 1: to injuries and Garrett's dad said Garrett followed this advice,

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Speaker 1: especially in the amateur level when guys wanted to keep

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Speaker 1: pitching him because he had a great arm. They monitored

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Speaker 1: Garrett's work and they staircased it. So I didn't see

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Speaker 1: anything in Garrett's past. Joe to me, whether it's mechanics, workload,

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Speaker 1: you name it that made him susceptible, But it just

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Speaker 1: happens now, right, And at least for Garrett, he's pitched

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Speaker 1: a long time, He's packed on a lot of innings.

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Speaker 1: This is not something that came along early in his career.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes the body just gives out, right.

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Speaker 3: There's sometimes it's unexplainable, and I agree with you. The

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Speaker 3: staircase method, I think is a really good way to

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Speaker 3: go about almost anything that we're trying to do. Just

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Speaker 3: build into things and don't go from zero to sixty

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Speaker 3: all the time. Let's go, you know, twenty thirty, forty,

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Speaker 3: so eventually get to that number of miles per hour.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting you mentioned the upgrade, uptick and cutter usage.

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Speaker 3: I'm not a huge fan of this pitch unless it's

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Speaker 3: absolutely necessary for the pitcher. The guys that were really

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Speaker 3: because it's really just a bad fastball. I mean, of

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Speaker 3: course it could be very effective. Mariano Rivera made it

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Speaker 3: made that obviously painfully important to left handed hitters. But

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Speaker 3: I would also believe in this I do. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if there was an up tickets more than likely an

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Speaker 3: analytical gesture where they pointed out that if he threw

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Speaker 3: this one off and they think he would get certain

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Speaker 3: or better results against the backdoor cutter, probably to the

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Speaker 3: lefties also on their hands. To me, against the right

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Speaker 3: handed hitter, it's got to be really located well because

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Speaker 3: again it's normally thrown a little bit less than the fastball,

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Speaker 3: and it runs to the barrel of the bat. So

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Speaker 3: these are the kind of things that I've always looked

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Speaker 3: at with cutters. You know, Shieldsy was into a James

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Speaker 3: got into it, David Price got into it, and part

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Speaker 3: of his career, and sometimes I thought it was kind

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Speaker 3: of like I would cringe a little bit because I

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Speaker 3: always felt they were not throwing something they were really

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Speaker 3: good at at the expense of.

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Speaker 2: Throwing the cutter.

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Speaker 3: So everything you just said there, having he having done everything,

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Speaker 3: having done everything properly, of course the body's going to

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Speaker 3: break down. Of course, it's unexplainable sometimes absolutely, But the

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Speaker 3: first thing I would look at would be if there

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Speaker 3: was anything different, we're doing anything differently.

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Speaker 2: Over the last year or so.

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Speaker 3: That would be where I would approach that. Not like

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Speaker 3: you're gonna do anything about it. It's just one of

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Speaker 3: those things. Like I said, for me, I'm always I

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Speaker 3: was always hyper aware of something when something new is

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Speaker 3: at it, and then how often that person would that

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Speaker 3: picture would go to that in expense of something else.

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Speaker 3: That's that was always it for me. From the dugout,

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Speaker 3: I would get Hicke easier all the time, Jimmy and

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Speaker 3: know it's God, I didn't we just back off on

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Speaker 3: that because like I've always said, Shields had a great curveball,

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Speaker 3: didn't use it as much because of that. David Price is,

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Speaker 3: you know, really didn't have that great breaking ball, so

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Speaker 3: he did need something other than that. A true Slidery

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Speaker 3: ad that, but not with the kind of confidence, So

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Speaker 3: the cutter became his kind of go to things. So

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Speaker 3: I always I'm always, like I said, hyper aware when

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Speaker 3: a picture adds sometimes and what that may do regarding

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Speaker 3: the usage and what it could result in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that theory. Joe to me It's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily the pitch itself, it's how many times do you

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Speaker 1: throw it and how do you throw it. I've seen

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Speaker 1: pitchers lose velocity off there for Seemer by throwing too

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Speaker 1: many cutters. I've seen that happen, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: times I've seen guys try to manipulate the baseball with

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Speaker 1: the cutter rather than really it's all stems from the grip.

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't throw it differently than your fastball, right, you're

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Speaker 1: just getting a little off center, changing the spin axis.

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Speaker 1: But you see some guys try to manipulate it and

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Speaker 1: work that ball more, and I think that's where you

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Speaker 1: could get in some trouble. Interesting to see now, Paul

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Speaker 1: skeins he's got the best stuff on the planet throwing

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Speaker 1: a cutter this spring, We'll see how often he throws

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Speaker 1: that pitch. Listen, I've seen him throw it. It's a

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Speaker 1: great pitch. Does he need it? He feels like he does.

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Speaker 1: He's the kind of guy who wants as many weapons

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Speaker 1: as he can. And again, we'll keep an eye on

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Speaker 1: how often he throws that pitch. If this brings me

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Speaker 1: to something, Joe, we talk a lot about this, the

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Speaker 1: kind of the devaluation of starting pitchers. Right, guys get

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Speaker 1: pulled out of the game when they're cruising through five

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Speaker 1: innings because it's third time around, they've only got seventy

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Speaker 1: five pitches. I was talking to Max Schurzer the other

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Speaker 1: day and he's got a pretty interesting idea that it's

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Speaker 1: at least the conversation starter. He calls it the qualified starter,

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Speaker 1: where to be qualified, you would have to throw one

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Speaker 1: of hit one of three thresholds. You know, six innings,

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Speaker 1: you throw one hundred pitches, or you give up four runs. Now,

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Speaker 1: if the team takes you out before you reach any

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Speaker 1: one of those three thresholds, you're unqualified, and there's a

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Speaker 1: penalty the team has to pay. It could be, and

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Speaker 1: he wasn't definitive on this, maybe you lose your DH.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the other team gets a free substitution, a pinch

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Speaker 1: hitter or a pinch runner. Or if you get the

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Speaker 1: extra innings, one team gets the runner on second base.

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Speaker 1: The other team with the unqualified starter does not. You know, listen,

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Speaker 1: you can argue about penalties. Get it. But he's he's

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Speaker 1: driving at something, Joe, I think there's something there. As

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Speaker 1: he said, nobody wants to see a guy throw five

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Speaker 1: innings cruising with seventy five pitches, and he's taken out

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Speaker 1: of the game expressly because it's the lineup turning a

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Speaker 1: third time around. So hitting these thresholds, how do we

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Speaker 1: get starting pitchers to pitch more often and not try

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Speaker 1: to get a swing and miss on every pitch. If

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Speaker 1: you take the ball and your job now is to

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Speaker 1: go at least six innings or one hundred pitches, you

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Speaker 1: can't afford to just chase swing and miss on every

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Speaker 1: one of your pitches. You can't max out, and maybe

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Speaker 1: that keeps pitchers healthier. You can argue with some of

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Speaker 1: the details of this, Joe, but I think he's driving

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Speaker 1: at something the game really has to consider.

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Speaker 2: That's very interesting.

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Speaker 3: I agree with that, But there has to be a

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Speaker 3: paradigm shift mentally among the people that are running the game.

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Speaker 3: I mean, after all, you know, why can't this I

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Speaker 3: still I always I always go back to my minor leagues,

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Speaker 3: in my minor league experience. I know there's less teams,

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Speaker 3: I know there's less up or tunity, but why isn't

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Speaker 3: this being done in the minor leagues?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 3: You talked about the step being stone process or the

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Speaker 3: step process of building somebody up sure rookie ball a

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Speaker 3: ball double A and build it in through there and

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Speaker 3: and really teach guys how to get through that third

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Speaker 3: time through this. Listen, if you could build an analytical

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Speaker 3: base at it base based on not having somebody pitch

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Speaker 3: the third time through, there's got to be a method

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Speaker 3: out there that you could teach somebody how to pitch

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Speaker 3: the third time through. What is that going to take?

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Speaker 3: Can't you break down those that have been successful at

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Speaker 3: this and how they did it, and furthermore, just giving

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Speaker 3: guys the opportunity to do it and sink or swim

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Speaker 3: in that in that particular moment. How do I get

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Speaker 3: these guys out? Does it mean withholding certain pitches earlier

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Speaker 3: in the game, saving something for later in the game.

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Speaker 3: Does it mean less than maximum effort on every pitch,

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Speaker 3: more pitchability, more first pitch outs, pitch the contact when

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Speaker 3: it's earlier in a game, earlier in account, you know

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Speaker 3: they always trying to miss a bat, maximum effort kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff. That's part of I think the reason why

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Speaker 3: this is devaulved to the point it has so I

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Speaker 3: get what he's saying. It makes sense not gonna argue

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Speaker 3: that at all. But I would really appreciate a more

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Speaker 3: concentrated effort in the minor leagues to get guys up

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Speaker 3: to speed with learning how to do this kind of stuff,

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Speaker 3: because I'm telling you, man, I know as I lived

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Speaker 3: it in the minor leagues. When I ran the minor leagues,

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Speaker 3: on the field, if I came into town and almost invariably,

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Speaker 3: you know, guys would throw complete games. Whether it was

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Speaker 3: David Holdridge one time, I thought he'd turn him around.

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Speaker 2: In the minor leagues.

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Speaker 3: At that particular time, Colin was callings s can't remember

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Speaker 3: specifically with Colin Hilly Hathaway. These guys all of a

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Speaker 3: sudden through nine innings, and I swear to the next

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Speaker 3: four or five starts they were like King Kaong. They

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Speaker 3: went out there because they had a different attitude about

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Speaker 3: themselves to be able to walk off the mound in

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Speaker 3: the ninth inning you win. Catcher comes and greets you, Matters,

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Speaker 3: all that stuff, matt in the development of a pitcher

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Speaker 3: as an athlete and as being successful in getting through

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Speaker 3: difficult moments.

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Speaker 2: We just don't permit it. It's not permitted, and that's it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we have to give a zoning permit to

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Speaker 3: allow guys to go after the third time through or

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Speaker 3: get into the six plus inning and then again, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's always going to save your bullpit. It's easier from

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Speaker 3: a manager's perspective to try to get six or eight

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Speaker 3: outs as opposed to like all this, shoot nine, twelve,

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Speaker 3: fifteen outs sometimes.

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Speaker 2: How do you do that on a.

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Speaker 3: Nightly basis and expect to get to the World Series

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Speaker 3: and win it unless you just have this super glut

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Speaker 3: of relief pitchers lying around.

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Speaker 2: So start in the minor leagues. Teach guys how to this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you're right about that. You're right about that, Joe.

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Speaker 1: It can be taught. But Max's point, and I agree

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Speaker 1: with this, is that's not going to happen organically with

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Speaker 1: the game we have now, with pitchers chasing velocity in

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Speaker 1: front offices, rewardings swing and miss right, no one is

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Speaker 1: going to decide to go back the other way. So

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Speaker 1: Max's point night with this is the only way you

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Speaker 1: can do it is to legislate it. As he said,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have to convince the analyst upstairs that

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Speaker 1: the incentives are worth having a picture stay in the game.

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Speaker 1: You have to change something about the rules of the

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Speaker 1: game to make the analyst change the way and they

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Speaker 1: decide this the way the game is played. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's going to happen organically.

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Speaker 2: I'm not arguing that at all.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying I think a better way for me

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Speaker 3: would be that to somehow somebody's got to step up

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Speaker 3: at one of these points. Somebody's got to get tired

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Speaker 3: of all these injuries, these Tommy Johns having to like

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Speaker 3: really scramble to get five guys that you like during

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Speaker 3: the course of a season without any really anybody coming

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Speaker 3: up from the ranks below, because nobody's developed enough, nobody

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Speaker 3: knows how to do this. At some point, somebody's got

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Speaker 3: to realize that, and you have to that. You got

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Speaker 3: to again the definition of insanity. At some point, you

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Speaker 3: got to realize, maybe this doesn't work, maybe this isn't

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Speaker 3: as good as we thought it was. And like I've

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Speaker 3: said before, it's not necessarily that the game hasn't changed.

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Speaker 3: People who are running the game have changed the game.

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Speaker 3: That's what nobody talks about. It's still there. I still

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Speaker 3: believe in kids. I still believe you get a young

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Speaker 3: guy's pitcher, good body, good armstroke, knows how to pitch.

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Speaker 3: I still believe and I always believe that you can

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Speaker 3: get him and teach a lot of them, not just

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Speaker 3: a few, how to get through that third time through

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Speaker 3: the bat a good and more successfully. It's just not

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Speaker 3: it's just because it's mathematically been proven to this point

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Speaker 3: that you can't do it, or insinuated that you can't

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Speaker 3: do it. So thus it becomes part.

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Speaker 2: Of the game. And I don't agree with it.

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Speaker 1: Here's how I gonna throw some numbers at you. Here,

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Speaker 1: here's how much the game has changed just in the

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Speaker 1: last ten years. Because I know people are going to say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, no one's going to throw three hundred innings,

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Speaker 1: and you know Nolan Ryan all his no. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about just recently, basically Garrett Cole's career. The span of

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Speaker 1: ten years, the last decade, the number of starts of

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Speaker 1: six innings has gone down thirty six percent. The number

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Speaker 1: of starts in which a starter was allowed to throw

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Speaker 1: one hundred pitches, and just the last ten years has

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Speaker 1: gone down seventy percent. I mean that is a sea

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Speaker 1: change in the game. In the postseason, the last one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty eight starts in the postseason, it's the

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Speaker 1: last two years, one hundred and sixty eight starts. In

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Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty one out of one hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty eight starts, the starter has been pulled before he

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Speaker 1: got to one hundred pitches. I mean, that's just staggering.

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Speaker 1: The average number of pitches thrown by a starter in

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Speaker 1: the last ten years has gone from ninety six to

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Speaker 1: eighty five. Eighty five is now the average number of

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Speaker 1: pitches thrown by a major league starter. So, yes, I

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Speaker 1: think Max Schurzer is driving at something. How we get

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Speaker 1: there we can certainly debate that, but we need to

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Speaker 1: have the conversation.

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Speaker 3: Eighty five that's the number that you try to get

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Speaker 3: up to, at least before your first start of the

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Speaker 3: season when you break camp, you know, and now of

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Speaker 3: a sudden that becomes the norm where the gold standard

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Speaker 3: I listen, it makes no sense.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 3: It's actually internally legislated by each organization. And again, the

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Speaker 3: part of this is that everybody believes the same thing.

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Speaker 3: Everybody passes the same information along to everybody else, and

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Speaker 3: nobody's willing to be the outlier to say, no, you

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Speaker 3: know what, this really isn't working. After all, how many

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Speaker 3: of these teams have really been successful in the postseason

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Speaker 3: are just like during the regular season. There they're standard records.

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Speaker 3: A number of victories for me, nineties them should be

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Speaker 3: the minimum that I want to win on an annual basis.

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Speaker 3: You go into camp, the number is the bar should

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Speaker 3: at least be ninety games. And that's not always going

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Speaker 3: back then, it didn't even ten fifteen years ago. That

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Speaker 3: wasn't assured. To get you into the to the playoffs.

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Speaker 3: You have to you have to you have to expand

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Speaker 3: your goals. Somebody's got to take this chance. Somebody's got

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Speaker 3: to say, you know what, this just isn't working to

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Speaker 3: the level. And I don't want to be like everybody else.

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Speaker 3: Why does everybody all of a sudden want to be

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Speaker 3: like everybody else? So that's that's the part that that

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Speaker 3: really it does bother me, and of course probably showing

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Speaker 3: my own sensibilities here and what I believe is the truth.

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Speaker 3: So that's fine, But I just I'm waiting for that

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Speaker 3: one group to have the kind of like the baseball

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Speaker 3: courge to say, you know what, we're gonna do this

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Speaker 3: a little bit differently when it start this minor league season.

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Speaker 2: We're going to grow from there, and I'd really be

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Speaker 2: curious to see what happens after that.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Another one of our favorite subjects here in the

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Speaker 1: Book of Joe is show Hey Otani, and recently Arry

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Speaker 1: Bonds went after show Hey Otani, Joe, We've got to

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Speaker 1: talk about that, and we will right after this quick

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Speaker 1: break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Book of Joe. I mentioned Barry Bonds. He was on

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Speaker 1: a podcast called All the Smoke, and he gave his

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Speaker 1: props to show, Hey, is this amazing player that show

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Speaker 1: Hey is? But he also said the game has changed.

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Speaker 1: The game is way different than it was when I played.

433
00:21:08,598 --> 00:21:11,358
Speaker 1: We're getting some off my lawn here stuff here, Joe.

434
00:21:12,118 --> 00:21:14,558
Speaker 1: He said the same way Michael as in Jordan talks

435
00:21:14,558 --> 00:21:16,998
Speaker 1: about it, or anybody does. Otani is not going to

436
00:21:17,078 --> 00:21:20,318
Speaker 1: hit two home runs without seeing one go by his ear.

437
00:21:20,358 --> 00:21:23,638
Speaker 1: In my generation, I don't care what he does. He's

438
00:21:23,718 --> 00:21:26,958
Speaker 1: not going to steal two bases without someone decapitating his

439
00:21:27,038 --> 00:21:31,598
Speaker 1: kneecap to slow him down. It's a different game back then.

440
00:21:32,438 --> 00:21:34,878
Speaker 1: I mean, I gotta take exception with this. First of all,

441
00:21:35,758 --> 00:21:38,478
Speaker 1: Barry Bonds played twenty two years. He was hit by

442
00:21:38,478 --> 00:21:40,798
Speaker 1: a pitch one hundred and six times, a little less

443
00:21:40,838 --> 00:21:44,758
Speaker 1: than five hit by pitches per year. He also, once

444
00:21:44,798 --> 00:21:48,598
Speaker 1: he bulked up, went to this gigantic arm guard, which

445
00:21:48,718 --> 00:21:52,758
Speaker 1: was so big Baseball had to put in legislation to

446
00:21:52,998 --> 00:21:55,638
Speaker 1: limit the size of those things. In nineteen ninety three,

447
00:21:56,038 --> 00:21:58,518
Speaker 1: he had forty six home runs, led the National League

448
00:21:58,558 --> 00:22:02,878
Speaker 1: in home runs. He was hit by a pitch twice. Listen,

449
00:22:02,958 --> 00:22:05,598
Speaker 1: this guy should not be talking about the you know,

450
00:22:05,638 --> 00:22:08,438
Speaker 1: the advantage quote unquote that Shohy has with not getting

451
00:22:08,478 --> 00:22:10,798
Speaker 1: hit by pitches. We haven't even talked about steroids yet

452
00:22:10,798 --> 00:22:15,038
Speaker 1: as well. Talk about advantages. The sixth highest hit by

453
00:22:15,158 --> 00:22:20,638
Speaker 1: pitch rates in baseball history are twenty eighteen, nineteen, twenty two,

454
00:22:20,758 --> 00:22:24,318
Speaker 1: twenty three, twenty four, the last six years full seasons

455
00:22:24,518 --> 00:22:27,118
Speaker 1: the highest rate of hit by pitches. He doesn't know

456
00:22:27,118 --> 00:22:28,838
Speaker 1: what he's talking about when it comes to how the

457
00:22:28,878 --> 00:22:31,718
Speaker 1: game quote unquote has changed, Joe. So, I don't think

458
00:22:31,758 --> 00:22:34,158
Speaker 1: you can take anything away from show hey, the fact

459
00:22:34,198 --> 00:22:38,638
Speaker 1: that people aren't dusting him. Listen, it's basically just get

460
00:22:38,678 --> 00:22:39,678
Speaker 1: off my lawn stuff.

461
00:22:40,278 --> 00:22:43,958
Speaker 3: Yeah, listen, I'm hearing all of that, and I know

462
00:22:43,958 --> 00:22:47,958
Speaker 3: I actually watched Bonds play at Arizona State he did.

463
00:22:47,998 --> 00:22:50,438
Speaker 3: He was so armored up when he came up to

464
00:22:50,438 --> 00:22:51,918
Speaker 3: the plate. Even if it hit him, he wouldn't have

465
00:22:51,918 --> 00:22:55,438
Speaker 3: felt it for a variety of different reasons. Part of

466
00:22:55,598 --> 00:22:59,118
Speaker 3: what's going on more recently, obviously, guys are throwing harder.

467
00:22:59,158 --> 00:23:02,718
Speaker 2: Guys are throwing harder with like these maximum.

468
00:23:02,438 --> 00:23:07,278
Speaker 3: Effort deliveries elevated in has become in vogue, and are

469
00:23:07,318 --> 00:23:08,878
Speaker 3: just trying to throw as hard as they can spin

470
00:23:08,918 --> 00:23:10,758
Speaker 3: at the top of the zone, which we've had the

471
00:23:11,238 --> 00:23:13,078
Speaker 3: more recently, they're going to make the argument about the

472
00:23:13,118 --> 00:23:15,598
Speaker 3: pine tar not being available and thus we have less command.

473
00:23:16,438 --> 00:23:18,478
Speaker 3: I'm not buying that completely, but I just think it's

474
00:23:18,478 --> 00:23:21,118
Speaker 3: just the methods being taught. But when Bonds pitched, it

475
00:23:21,238 --> 00:23:24,118
Speaker 3: was more command kind of pitchers guys that really was.

476
00:23:24,238 --> 00:23:25,558
Speaker 3: It was about fastball command.

477
00:23:25,678 --> 00:23:27,918
Speaker 2: First. You wanted to be able to throw.

478
00:23:27,758 --> 00:23:30,718
Speaker 3: Your fastball for a strike when you wanted to not

479
00:23:30,998 --> 00:23:32,438
Speaker 3: just being able to throw it for a strike. There's

480
00:23:32,438 --> 00:23:33,878
Speaker 3: times you don't want to throw it for a strike.

481
00:23:34,718 --> 00:23:37,078
Speaker 3: In my meager existence, I used to catch Tommy John

482
00:23:37,078 --> 00:23:38,998
Speaker 3: and Jeff's on and spring trainings, and I swear to

483
00:23:39,078 --> 00:23:41,718
Speaker 3: these guys never threw the ball over the white part

484
00:23:41,718 --> 00:23:43,318
Speaker 3: of the plate. That was not part of their game.

485
00:23:43,398 --> 00:23:44,998
Speaker 3: They were off the end, They lived off the edges

486
00:23:45,038 --> 00:23:47,078
Speaker 3: all the time, and they could. So I think part

487
00:23:47,118 --> 00:23:50,758
Speaker 3: of the getting hit more often is it necessarily head

488
00:23:50,838 --> 00:23:54,318
Speaker 3: hunting or trying to hit people. It's just the inability

489
00:23:54,358 --> 00:23:56,998
Speaker 3: to really command pitches that are thrown that hard move

490
00:23:57,078 --> 00:23:59,638
Speaker 3: that much. And I don't, like I said, the legitimacy

491
00:23:59,638 --> 00:24:02,358
Speaker 3: of the excuse of not having a substance on the ball.

492
00:24:02,758 --> 00:24:05,558
Speaker 3: I'm not one hundred percent that, So yeah, I mean

493
00:24:05,678 --> 00:24:08,678
Speaker 3: we always talk about, you know, the previous generations being

494
00:24:08,998 --> 00:24:10,638
Speaker 3: way tougher than the present generation.

495
00:24:10,758 --> 00:24:12,798
Speaker 2: That's my dad thought that about us.

496
00:24:12,798 --> 00:24:14,798
Speaker 3: So my dad's dad thought that about his group too,

497
00:24:15,278 --> 00:24:17,798
Speaker 3: just the way it is we we we perceived the

498
00:24:17,798 --> 00:24:20,998
Speaker 3: group in play right now as being less masculine as

499
00:24:21,038 --> 00:24:23,038
Speaker 3: we were in regards everything that they're doing.

500
00:24:23,078 --> 00:24:24,198
Speaker 2: So I don't buy that either.

501
00:24:25,038 --> 00:24:28,438
Speaker 3: So yeah, I could see where the numbers have gone

502
00:24:28,478 --> 00:24:30,598
Speaker 3: up guys being hit. I think part of it is

503
00:24:30,598 --> 00:24:33,398
Speaker 3: the methods being taught. I think the fact that guys

504
00:24:33,398 --> 00:24:36,638
Speaker 3: aren't necessarily great pictures anymore. They have great arms, and

505
00:24:36,638 --> 00:24:38,838
Speaker 3: they'll throw the ball hard and all this other kind

506
00:24:38,838 --> 00:24:40,518
Speaker 3: of stuff, and it's going to get away. It's going

507
00:24:40,558 --> 00:24:43,478
Speaker 3: to get away more often, just based on the maximum

508
00:24:43,518 --> 00:24:46,198
Speaker 3: effort delivery and the general philosophy in the game.

509
00:24:46,478 --> 00:24:48,398
Speaker 1: Hey, another thing we like to do here Joe is

510
00:24:48,518 --> 00:24:51,238
Speaker 1: acknowledge some great baseball lives, and I want to talk

511
00:24:51,278 --> 00:24:56,118
Speaker 1: about two former Big leaguers that we lost recently, including

512
00:24:56,198 --> 00:24:59,558
Speaker 1: the oldest living player at the time. At his death,

513
00:24:59,638 --> 00:25:01,998
Speaker 1: he was one hundred years old, Art Shallock. He was

514
00:25:02,078 --> 00:25:04,918
Speaker 1: left handed pitcher. He actually played on a few Yankees

515
00:25:04,918 --> 00:25:09,998
Speaker 1: World Championship teams. Art he was something of a character.

516
00:25:10,118 --> 00:25:13,358
Speaker 1: He had this basically, this was on his obituary on

517
00:25:13,438 --> 00:25:17,478
Speaker 1: his legacy page, a quote from Art. Those players who

518
00:25:17,558 --> 00:25:20,318
Speaker 1: cheated by using steroids, I hope they never get into

519
00:25:20,318 --> 00:25:22,678
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame. If Ted Williams or Mickey Mannal

520
00:25:22,758 --> 00:25:25,398
Speaker 1: had use those drugs, they would have hit one thousand

521
00:25:25,478 --> 00:25:28,638
Speaker 1: home runs each. So the steroid users should have had

522
00:25:28,638 --> 00:25:32,998
Speaker 1: their records thrown away forever. Tell it like it is,

523
00:25:33,198 --> 00:25:36,998
Speaker 1: Art Listen. He was quite a character, and he's from

524
00:25:36,998 --> 00:25:40,598
Speaker 1: that greatest generation. Joe. He earned eleven Battle Stars in

525
00:25:40,638 --> 00:25:43,238
Speaker 1: the Navy. He was at Iwo Jima. He was at Okinawa.

526
00:25:44,518 --> 00:25:47,158
Speaker 1: Originally signed by the Dodgers, he's picked up by the Yankees.

527
00:25:47,198 --> 00:25:49,958
Speaker 1: He wound up rooming with Yogi Berra, and Yogi used

528
00:25:49,998 --> 00:25:51,998
Speaker 1: to send him downstairs to the lobby to pick up

529
00:25:52,038 --> 00:25:55,678
Speaker 1: what he called his funnies, the comic books. Yoga would

530
00:25:55,718 --> 00:26:00,638
Speaker 1: read his comic books. What a character. In fact, there

531
00:26:00,678 --> 00:26:03,318
Speaker 1: was a quote after he passed away at one hundred

532
00:26:04,038 --> 00:26:07,638
Speaker 1: where the nurse said, he left us burning just as

533
00:26:07,678 --> 00:26:12,118
Speaker 1: bright as ever, one last beer, a smoke, and a milkshake.

534
00:26:13,118 --> 00:26:15,838
Speaker 1: You talk about life well lived, how about that.

535
00:26:17,038 --> 00:26:18,718
Speaker 3: I'd be in a bathroom all night with that kind

536
00:26:18,718 --> 00:26:22,918
Speaker 3: of combination. Means this guy was born in nineteen twenty five, right,

537
00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:23,558
Speaker 3: I mean that's the.

538
00:26:23,518 --> 00:26:26,278
Speaker 1: First April twenty four.

539
00:26:26,478 --> 00:26:29,918
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, just think about I mean, guy lives

540
00:26:29,918 --> 00:26:33,038
Speaker 3: through the Depression, at the end of one world, ward

541
00:26:33,038 --> 00:26:36,398
Speaker 3: at the beginning of and through another one, the Grand Conflict,

542
00:26:36,438 --> 00:26:39,238
Speaker 3: all the way up to all the social unrest, what's

543
00:26:39,278 --> 00:26:41,358
Speaker 3: going on in the in the country for so many years.

544
00:26:41,398 --> 00:26:44,198
Speaker 3: That's he's a history book right there. I've never got

545
00:26:44,238 --> 00:26:47,558
Speaker 3: to meet this gentleman. I love everything they just said there.

546
00:26:48,438 --> 00:26:51,158
Speaker 3: You know, guys like this and you got to give

547
00:26:51,198 --> 00:26:53,358
Speaker 3: them their due. And when they when they're telling you

548
00:26:53,398 --> 00:26:55,598
Speaker 3: what they think a lot of times in today's world,

549
00:26:55,598 --> 00:26:57,678
Speaker 3: that's just going to be pushed to the side. And

550
00:26:57,718 --> 00:27:01,878
Speaker 3: again that's always about a different time. Things were different.

551
00:27:03,118 --> 00:27:06,638
Speaker 3: It's almost as though we consider that portion of humanity

552
00:27:06,718 --> 00:27:09,878
Speaker 3: or that time of existence as being less stand and

553
00:27:09,918 --> 00:27:11,678
Speaker 3: I think when you just break it down, the difference

554
00:27:11,678 --> 00:27:14,958
Speaker 3: primarily would be more technology. Obviously there's different things that

555
00:27:14,958 --> 00:27:17,558
Speaker 3: we do. That's a cell phone is an example, which

556
00:27:17,558 --> 00:27:19,838
Speaker 3: I'm still not convinced is a good thing. So there's

557
00:27:19,878 --> 00:27:21,918
Speaker 3: all the things that have come down the path since then,

558
00:27:22,318 --> 00:27:24,998
Speaker 3: and because people are back then didn't have them, they're

559
00:27:25,038 --> 00:27:28,358
Speaker 3: considered less sophisticated or not. Sometimes it's bright and I

560
00:27:28,398 --> 00:27:31,518
Speaker 3: totally disagree with that. I love the experience. I love

561
00:27:31,518 --> 00:27:34,278
Speaker 3: the anecdotal stuff. I think it's great that a guy

562
00:27:34,358 --> 00:27:36,358
Speaker 3: like him would survived that long and be able to

563
00:27:36,398 --> 00:27:37,238
Speaker 3: pass that kind.

564
00:27:37,078 --> 00:27:38,718
Speaker 2: Of stuff along to us.

565
00:27:38,798 --> 00:27:42,158
Speaker 3: I've always my mentors are like so near and dear

566
00:27:42,198 --> 00:27:46,918
Speaker 3: to my heart, and the ability to transfer what they

567
00:27:46,918 --> 00:27:49,558
Speaker 3: have taught me to present day is really important to me.

568
00:27:49,718 --> 00:27:53,958
Speaker 3: So never met the man, it's just all fabulous stuff,

569
00:27:53,998 --> 00:27:56,598
Speaker 3: and congratulations to him and his family. I mean that's

570
00:27:56,678 --> 00:27:59,198
Speaker 3: pretty much a life well lived right there.

571
00:27:59,398 --> 00:28:01,118
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point too. I mean, we can

572
00:28:01,158 --> 00:28:04,358
Speaker 1: do a much better job of honoring and cherishing our

573
00:28:04,398 --> 00:28:07,278
Speaker 1: elders the way other some other cultures do. There's no

574
00:28:07,358 --> 00:28:10,278
Speaker 1: question about it. And the story about Yogi and his

575
00:28:10,398 --> 00:28:13,358
Speaker 1: comic books reminds me the famous story he also Yogi

576
00:28:13,438 --> 00:28:17,758
Speaker 1: also roomed with Bobby Brown, who was got a medical

577
00:28:17,798 --> 00:28:20,558
Speaker 1: degree and studying for it. He used to always read

578
00:28:20,638 --> 00:28:24,478
Speaker 1: medical journals, you know, before turning out the lights. And

579
00:28:24,558 --> 00:28:28,158
Speaker 1: Yogi was reading his comic book one night and gets

580
00:28:28,158 --> 00:28:29,758
Speaker 1: to the end of the book and says, Wow, that

581
00:28:29,958 --> 00:28:31,998
Speaker 1: was great. How did yours turn out, doc?

582
00:28:35,278 --> 00:28:35,958
Speaker 2: That's so good?

583
00:28:36,158 --> 00:28:38,998
Speaker 3: How about he roomed with How about that concept too? Oh,

584
00:28:39,198 --> 00:28:41,838
Speaker 3: I mean nobody, nobody rooms with I mean, my god,

585
00:28:42,238 --> 00:28:46,318
Speaker 3: and that was just a normal roomy I mean Jimmy Reese,

586
00:28:46,798 --> 00:28:48,958
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I love Jimmy Reese. We're talking about

587
00:28:48,998 --> 00:28:52,438
Speaker 3: people that lived in that era. Jimmy claims, I'm sure

588
00:28:52,478 --> 00:28:54,718
Speaker 3: it's true. Had been bab Routes roommate on the road

589
00:28:54,758 --> 00:28:57,318
Speaker 3: on occasion, and you said, how is Babe on the

590
00:28:57,398 --> 00:28:59,398
Speaker 3: road And he pretty much says, well, I was rooming.

591
00:28:59,158 --> 00:29:01,518
Speaker 2: With the suitcase, that's all I said. I was never there.

592
00:29:02,038 --> 00:29:06,398
Speaker 3: Yes, So these guys got I mean there's another that's

593
00:29:06,438 --> 00:29:10,278
Speaker 3: a great story in and of itself. The stories that

594
00:29:10,398 --> 00:29:14,958
Speaker 3: Jimmy Rees used to pass down to us during spring trainings. Gosh,

595
00:29:15,118 --> 00:29:17,118
Speaker 3: every day he look forward to his meeting up with them.

596
00:29:17,118 --> 00:29:20,038
Speaker 3: He was late eighties, early nineties at that point. I

597
00:29:20,078 --> 00:29:22,998
Speaker 3: think he died in ninety three or ninety four. But

598
00:29:23,278 --> 00:29:26,278
Speaker 3: here's a contemporary man in his eight He was contemporary.

599
00:29:26,598 --> 00:29:29,598
Speaker 3: His sense of humor was bright. It was he got it.

600
00:29:29,718 --> 00:29:32,038
Speaker 3: He got the joke, He got the joke of the day.

601
00:29:32,958 --> 00:29:34,718
Speaker 2: His eyes would always be bright.

602
00:29:34,758 --> 00:29:37,118
Speaker 3: He'd have chewing tobacco coming down the corners of his

603
00:29:37,198 --> 00:29:40,038
Speaker 3: mouth as he spoke, to his teeth jagging him brown,

604
00:29:40,158 --> 00:29:42,678
Speaker 3: just from chewing tobacco for so many years. He put

605
00:29:42,678 --> 00:29:44,798
Speaker 3: his hand on your shoulder, look you're right in the eyeballs,

606
00:29:45,278 --> 00:29:47,478
Speaker 3: and talk to you about something that happened that morning.

607
00:29:48,518 --> 00:29:53,358
Speaker 3: Mark Langston, Chuck Finley, and Jimmy Abbott just clung to

608
00:29:53,438 --> 00:29:56,318
Speaker 3: him like you know, flies on a paper on a

609
00:29:56,358 --> 00:29:59,358
Speaker 3: fly stick. I mean, they were round Jimmy all the time.

610
00:29:59,998 --> 00:30:02,878
Speaker 3: Missed those kind of guys. That's that's part of the game.

611
00:30:02,918 --> 00:30:07,278
Speaker 3: The game doesn't really it doesn't cherish that kind of

612
00:30:08,118 --> 00:30:12,038
Speaker 3: opinion anymore or having those kind of people around. I

613
00:30:12,118 --> 00:30:15,038
Speaker 3: think Jimmy Leland's in Detroit camp right now, which is

614
00:30:15,118 --> 00:30:18,078
Speaker 3: bully for Detroit. That kind of stuff, you know, the

615
00:30:18,358 --> 00:30:21,838
Speaker 3: six degrees of separation talking about Kevin Bak and this

616
00:30:21,918 --> 00:30:24,318
Speaker 3: also exists in our game. I was attached to branch

617
00:30:24,398 --> 00:30:29,118
Speaker 3: Rickey because of Don Zimmer and Preston Gomez and those

618
00:30:29,198 --> 00:30:31,838
Speaker 3: kind of people. That, to me, is one of the

619
00:30:31,838 --> 00:30:33,878
Speaker 3: parts of the game that I was most concerned about,

620
00:30:34,518 --> 00:30:37,838
Speaker 3: is who is attending to the minor league players on

621
00:30:37,878 --> 00:30:40,998
Speaker 3: a daily basis and what I mean, the contemporary guys.

622
00:30:41,238 --> 00:30:43,598
Speaker 3: We talked about diversity. I think we mentioned in the book.

623
00:30:43,998 --> 00:30:47,038
Speaker 3: I'm into generational diversity. I think that's not spoken about

624
00:30:47,038 --> 00:30:49,958
Speaker 3: it enough. Just by having generational diversity within your group,

625
00:30:49,998 --> 00:30:52,918
Speaker 3: you're gonna have varied opinions just based on when somebody

626
00:30:52,918 --> 00:30:55,798
Speaker 3: grew up. So that's part of it that I really

627
00:30:55,838 --> 00:30:57,118
Speaker 3: would love to I mean, if I ever had an

628
00:30:57,158 --> 00:31:00,358
Speaker 3: opportunity to do it again, it would really stress generational

629
00:31:00,398 --> 00:31:03,158
Speaker 3: diversity also as being a big part of the teaching process.

630
00:31:03,438 --> 00:31:07,518
Speaker 1: As a great point, and speaking of experience, I mentioned

631
00:31:07,678 --> 00:31:09,838
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a second major leaguer we

632
00:31:09,878 --> 00:31:13,518
Speaker 1: lost at the age of ninety eight. Frank Soche, who

633
00:31:13,518 --> 00:31:15,678
Speaker 1: also by the way of that generation. He spent two

634
00:31:15,798 --> 00:31:18,958
Speaker 1: years as an officer in the Navy. He's most famous

635
00:31:18,998 --> 00:31:21,878
Speaker 1: for taking in a bet that he actually didn't take.

636
00:31:22,278 --> 00:31:25,318
Speaker 1: It was August nineteenth, nineteen fifty one, and he was

637
00:31:25,358 --> 00:31:28,118
Speaker 1: the right fielder and leadoff hitter for the Saint Louis

638
00:31:28,158 --> 00:31:32,198
Speaker 1: Browns second game of a doubleheader at Sportsman Park. Now,

639
00:31:32,238 --> 00:31:36,198
Speaker 1: the Browns are celebrating their fiftieth anniversary of American League

640
00:31:36,238 --> 00:31:39,118
Speaker 1: play on this particular day or this year, and on

641
00:31:39,158 --> 00:31:41,878
Speaker 1: this day they celebrated at Bill Beck, of course, was

642
00:31:41,918 --> 00:31:45,278
Speaker 1: their owner. So as Frank is taking is it beat

643
00:31:45,398 --> 00:31:47,398
Speaker 1: or walking up to the play, the manager calls him

644
00:31:47,438 --> 00:31:49,398
Speaker 1: back and he's going to pinch hit for him. It

645
00:31:49,438 --> 00:31:51,518
Speaker 1: turned out Frank was hurt anyway, and it was all

646
00:31:51,638 --> 00:31:53,718
Speaker 1: just a ruse because the pinch hitter set up for

647
00:31:53,798 --> 00:31:58,758
Speaker 1: him was three foot seven Eddie Goodell, a circus showman,

648
00:31:58,878 --> 00:32:03,478
Speaker 1: literally a circus showman. The umpire asks, you know, basically,

649
00:32:03,478 --> 00:32:05,958
Speaker 1: he says, what's going on here? You can't hit and

650
00:32:05,998 --> 00:32:08,278
Speaker 1: the manager says, we actually have him under contract, and

651
00:32:08,278 --> 00:32:10,678
Speaker 1: they produced the contract. They hadn't filed it with the league,

652
00:32:10,678 --> 00:32:12,678
Speaker 1: but they had their own piece of paper with the

653
00:32:12,678 --> 00:32:15,918
Speaker 1: contract that he signed. So the pitcher is a guy

654
00:32:15,958 --> 00:32:18,438
Speaker 1: by the name of Bob Kane, and the catcher is

655
00:32:18,958 --> 00:32:21,318
Speaker 1: a guy named Bob Swift. Swift goes out to the

656
00:32:21,318 --> 00:32:24,638
Speaker 1: mound like they don't know what to do. The catcher

657
00:32:24,678 --> 00:32:26,998
Speaker 1: winds up laying down on the ground. The umpire says,

658
00:32:26,998 --> 00:32:29,358
Speaker 1: you can't do that, trying to set a low target.

659
00:32:30,478 --> 00:32:32,878
Speaker 1: The pitcher, Bobby Kyeson, I didn't know whether to throw

660
00:32:32,918 --> 00:32:36,798
Speaker 1: the ball underhanded or overhand. I was just careful not

661
00:32:36,838 --> 00:32:40,358
Speaker 1: to hit the guy, he said. Dizzy Trout later told

662
00:32:40,398 --> 00:32:42,718
Speaker 1: him that if he was the pitcher, he'd thrown one

663
00:32:42,758 --> 00:32:44,838
Speaker 1: right between his eyes. Well's a good thing he didn't.

664
00:32:45,398 --> 00:32:48,478
Speaker 1: And of course Eddie Goddell walked on four pitches and

665
00:32:48,758 --> 00:32:51,398
Speaker 1: they pinched ran for him. It's it's one of the

666
00:32:51,398 --> 00:32:55,118
Speaker 1: most famous pictures Joe in baseball history of Eddie Goodell

667
00:32:55,238 --> 00:32:58,998
Speaker 1: up there at the plate and you know he the

668
00:32:59,118 --> 00:33:02,478
Speaker 1: umpire actually is his head is way above Eddie Goddell's

669
00:33:02,478 --> 00:33:06,398
Speaker 1: head trying to call pitches. A four pitch walk. Obviously,

670
00:33:06,478 --> 00:33:08,718
Speaker 1: nothing like that can ever happen again. But that that's

671
00:33:08,758 --> 00:33:11,838
Speaker 1: that's Bill Veck for you, right. Everybody left the park

672
00:33:11,918 --> 00:33:13,678
Speaker 1: that night with a smile on their face. No matter

673
00:33:13,678 --> 00:33:15,998
Speaker 1: how the game turned out. Any other Browns lost as

674
00:33:15,998 --> 00:33:18,238
Speaker 1: he usually did, then they lost one hundred and two games.

675
00:33:19,718 --> 00:33:21,398
Speaker 1: But Frank Soche was the batter.

676
00:33:21,838 --> 00:33:21,958
Speaker 2: Uh.

677
00:33:22,318 --> 00:33:24,078
Speaker 1: He's more famous for that than anything he did in

678
00:33:24,078 --> 00:33:25,758
Speaker 1: the major leagues. The fact that he was pinched it

679
00:33:25,838 --> 00:33:27,478
Speaker 1: for by three foot seven.

680
00:33:27,638 --> 00:33:30,718
Speaker 3: Eddie Goodell, the automatic ball strike system would have had

681
00:33:30,758 --> 00:33:33,238
Speaker 3: a field day with that right there. And they're gonna

682
00:33:33,238 --> 00:33:35,118
Speaker 3: be pushing buttons all over the place to try to

683
00:33:35,158 --> 00:33:36,598
Speaker 3: set the strike zone up properly.

684
00:33:36,918 --> 00:33:38,838
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting you bring that up. Jah. I

685
00:33:38,838 --> 00:33:40,798
Speaker 1: was talking to somebody at MLB the other day. They're

686
00:33:40,798 --> 00:33:45,238
Speaker 1: actually laser guiding measuring every player in the big leagues

687
00:33:45,238 --> 00:33:47,358
Speaker 1: in spring training this year so that they can set

688
00:33:47,358 --> 00:33:49,958
Speaker 1: their strike zone properly. So I think what they're finding

689
00:33:49,998 --> 00:33:52,518
Speaker 1: out is a lot of the listings of players height

690
00:33:53,278 --> 00:33:56,558
Speaker 1: not that accurate, right, So they're getting it to the

691
00:33:56,638 --> 00:33:59,438
Speaker 1: nearest millimeter in terms of guy's height to set that.

692
00:33:59,518 --> 00:34:00,318
Speaker 1: But go ahead, But.

693
00:34:00,398 --> 00:34:02,798
Speaker 3: What okay, And first of all, that picture, I could

694
00:34:02,798 --> 00:34:04,278
Speaker 3: just see it in my mind's side. He was in

695
00:34:04,318 --> 00:34:06,278
Speaker 3: a and he was in a squad like he was

696
00:34:06,318 --> 00:34:10,198
Speaker 3: like really sitting down there right. Absolutely, But with all

697
00:34:10,238 --> 00:34:14,038
Speaker 3: this stuff, with the measuring height and whatever, what is it?

698
00:34:14,358 --> 00:34:17,078
Speaker 3: Do they take into account the actual stance where the

699
00:34:17,118 --> 00:34:17,878
Speaker 3: guy stands up?

700
00:34:17,878 --> 00:34:21,318
Speaker 2: Squad? So I don't understand why is that not pertinent?

701
00:34:21,358 --> 00:34:23,598
Speaker 2: Did they? Did they make that clear or not?

702
00:34:23,758 --> 00:34:26,118
Speaker 1: Well, they didn't want guys gaming the system. I guess,

703
00:34:26,198 --> 00:34:27,678
Speaker 1: you know, like a little league when it's a three

704
00:34:27,678 --> 00:34:30,118
Speaker 1: to zero count and then your coach tells you to

705
00:34:30,158 --> 00:34:33,398
Speaker 1: get really small. I guess they didn't want to see

706
00:34:33,398 --> 00:34:34,638
Speaker 1: this some of that happened.

707
00:34:35,278 --> 00:34:39,038
Speaker 3: Okay, that that kind of makes sense, but again, just

708
00:34:39,078 --> 00:34:40,478
Speaker 3: to measure somebody up.

709
00:34:40,398 --> 00:34:41,038
Speaker 2: I mean, was it.

710
00:34:41,078 --> 00:34:43,198
Speaker 3: Tall guys need to hit learn it the low ball better,

711
00:34:43,238 --> 00:34:45,638
Speaker 3: and short guys have to learn it the high ball better.

712
00:34:45,678 --> 00:34:49,198
Speaker 3: Based on all of this, I mean beyond that, I've

713
00:34:49,198 --> 00:34:52,038
Speaker 3: always thought that shorter players in the big leagues really

714
00:34:52,598 --> 00:34:55,398
Speaker 3: I need to be good highball hitters. I've never observation.

715
00:34:55,438 --> 00:34:58,518
Speaker 3: I've always thought that you get the the shorter guys

716
00:34:58,558 --> 00:35:01,918
Speaker 3: getting higher pitches called more often. Kevin Kings in our

717
00:35:01,958 --> 00:35:04,678
Speaker 3: book KK, when he was in Double A with me Midland,

718
00:35:04,918 --> 00:35:06,438
Speaker 3: he used to wear his pants way down all the

719
00:35:06,558 --> 00:35:09,278
Speaker 3: George Hendrick and then the second half of the season.

720
00:35:09,318 --> 00:35:12,318
Speaker 3: I said, KK, pull your pants up to like right

721
00:35:12,358 --> 00:35:14,398
Speaker 3: at your knees are slightly above and see if that

722
00:35:14,478 --> 00:35:16,558
Speaker 3: helps you. Because the ball down was kicking his but

723
00:35:16,718 --> 00:35:18,718
Speaker 3: he was kind of like built like Don, looked like

724
00:35:18,798 --> 00:35:20,998
Speaker 3: Don Baylor, and so he like tore it up in

725
00:35:21,038 --> 00:35:22,918
Speaker 3: the second half because all of a sudden, the little

726
00:35:22,918 --> 00:35:25,918
Speaker 3: strike wasn't there anymore. So I'm just curious how this

727
00:35:25,958 --> 00:35:28,238
Speaker 3: all plays out, the complaints that are going to be

728
00:35:28,318 --> 00:35:32,558
Speaker 3: registered with that, I'm still you know, the is it

729
00:35:32,598 --> 00:35:35,278
Speaker 3: really impactful to have I know it's it's only spring training,

730
00:35:35,318 --> 00:35:38,238
Speaker 3: but to have two pitches being challengeable?

731
00:35:39,118 --> 00:35:40,518
Speaker 2: And what is the end game with all this?

732
00:35:40,638 --> 00:35:44,878
Speaker 3: Is the endgame to really just gradually like almost like

733
00:35:44,918 --> 00:35:48,398
Speaker 3: the stair step method of becoming a better pitcher or

734
00:35:48,478 --> 00:35:51,318
Speaker 3: more durable. Is this a stair step method just to

735
00:35:51,318 --> 00:35:54,078
Speaker 3: break the general public and the TEP the players into

736
00:35:54,878 --> 00:35:57,078
Speaker 3: having full of limentation of the system and what that's

737
00:35:57,078 --> 00:35:59,478
Speaker 3: going to look like. All this stuff to me is curious,

738
00:35:59,518 --> 00:36:01,358
Speaker 3: But I again, what is the end game? Is the

739
00:36:01,438 --> 00:36:04,358
Speaker 3: endgame to just truly turn our entire lives over to

740
00:36:05,158 --> 00:36:11,318
Speaker 3: AI and to eliminate the human element completely because the

741
00:36:11,358 --> 00:36:13,918
Speaker 3: world in general is on path for that and the

742
00:36:13,958 --> 00:36:15,518
Speaker 3: other part, I mean, what is the other part of

743
00:36:15,518 --> 00:36:17,398
Speaker 3: the end game is how much of this is attached

744
00:36:17,398 --> 00:36:20,118
Speaker 3: to gambling and accuracy. But nobody ever talks about that.

745
00:36:20,158 --> 00:36:22,878
Speaker 3: I don't read anything about that. To me, that's something

746
00:36:22,918 --> 00:36:25,638
Speaker 3: that needs to be discussed in regards to why it

747
00:36:25,678 --> 00:36:29,358
Speaker 3: has to be so accurate. It's almost I was looking

748
00:36:29,438 --> 00:36:32,798
Speaker 3: at I was thinking about years ago when the automatic

749
00:36:32,798 --> 00:36:37,278
Speaker 3: strikes owner the the NFL when they went to over

750
00:36:37,438 --> 00:36:41,318
Speaker 3: the overreach was trying to replay pass interference or not.

751
00:36:41,998 --> 00:36:43,358
Speaker 3: Where are we going with all this? What are we

752
00:36:43,398 --> 00:36:47,718
Speaker 3: going to continually try to implement what is really necessary

753
00:36:47,718 --> 00:36:50,518
Speaker 3: in regards to instant replay and to make the game

754
00:36:50,598 --> 00:36:53,598
Speaker 3: a better game. So there's a lot of questions here.

755
00:36:53,638 --> 00:36:56,078
Speaker 3: What is the end game? We don't even talk about

756
00:36:56,118 --> 00:36:59,158
Speaker 3: check swings, although what I understand is that this system

757
00:36:59,318 --> 00:37:04,278
Speaker 3: is going to somehow help deciphering what a checkswing is

758
00:37:04,358 --> 00:37:06,758
Speaker 3: or not. I'm curious about that. To me, that would

759
00:37:06,758 --> 00:37:09,958
Speaker 3: be the more important part of this whole system is

760
00:37:09,998 --> 00:37:12,838
Speaker 3: to try to devise a way to get that right.

761
00:37:13,198 --> 00:37:17,798
Speaker 3: As opposed to all this concern about measuring people not

762
00:37:17,878 --> 00:37:21,238
Speaker 3: taking an account their actual height or stand I mean

763
00:37:21,238 --> 00:37:25,118
Speaker 3: their actual stances and what optically what it's going to

764
00:37:25,198 --> 00:37:26,598
Speaker 3: look like. And I know it's been done in the

765
00:37:26,638 --> 00:37:28,518
Speaker 3: minor leagues. I don't know enough about this, but these

766
00:37:28,518 --> 00:37:29,438
Speaker 3: are the questions I have.

767
00:37:29,958 --> 00:37:32,358
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be naive here and tell you the endgame

768
00:37:32,398 --> 00:37:35,798
Speaker 1: here is to make sure that the egregious bad call

769
00:37:36,078 --> 00:37:39,478
Speaker 1: does not change the outcome of game. That was the

770
00:37:39,478 --> 00:37:42,118
Speaker 1: the impetus I think for getting calls right on the basis,

771
00:37:42,638 --> 00:37:44,718
Speaker 1: you know, even going back to the near no hitter

772
00:37:44,958 --> 00:37:50,598
Speaker 1: of Galarraga. But I think you make a good point, Joe.

773
00:37:50,678 --> 00:37:52,998
Speaker 1: You can get carried away with this. So I'm just

774
00:37:53,078 --> 00:37:55,558
Speaker 1: hoping that the end game is not a full blown

775
00:37:56,118 --> 00:38:00,478
Speaker 1: robo Every pitch is called by a robo umpire, but

776
00:38:00,518 --> 00:38:04,318
Speaker 1: with limited challenges. Save them for the key moments and game.

777
00:38:04,438 --> 00:38:06,638
Speaker 1: You know that three to two pitch with the bases loaded,

778
00:38:06,758 --> 00:38:08,678
Speaker 1: that can really change the outcome of a game. That's

779
00:38:08,718 --> 00:38:11,398
Speaker 1: an obvious blown call. You I everybody at home can

780
00:38:11,438 --> 00:38:14,918
Speaker 1: see it. Get that one right. I'm okay with that.

781
00:38:15,118 --> 00:38:17,358
Speaker 1: And I think there's actually part of this, Joe, is

782
00:38:17,398 --> 00:38:21,318
Speaker 1: actually fan engagement, because I've been at spring training games

783
00:38:21,358 --> 00:38:23,918
Speaker 1: where the challenge is put up there on the board

784
00:38:23,958 --> 00:38:27,598
Speaker 1: and people really respond to it. They do. They get

785
00:38:27,638 --> 00:38:30,238
Speaker 1: a kick out of seeing something revealed in real time

786
00:38:30,318 --> 00:38:33,558
Speaker 1: to them. You've seen it before for years and years

787
00:38:33,558 --> 00:38:37,438
Speaker 1: of tennis with the Hawkeye system. So it's always a

788
00:38:37,438 --> 00:38:40,678
Speaker 1: good question to ask, Joe, where is it going, right,

789
00:38:40,758 --> 00:38:43,598
Speaker 1: because something that starts out really well can get carried

790
00:38:43,598 --> 00:38:46,518
Speaker 1: away if you put too much faith in technology. I

791
00:38:46,798 --> 00:38:49,558
Speaker 1: like the system the way it is now, and our

792
00:38:49,598 --> 00:38:51,798
Speaker 1: fans shouldn't remember that it's not being used during the

793
00:38:51,798 --> 00:38:55,998
Speaker 1: regular season this year. Most likely implemented next regular season.

794
00:38:56,518 --> 00:38:59,598
Speaker 1: But from what I've seen in spring training, Joe, I

795
00:38:59,958 --> 00:39:03,718
Speaker 1: like what's happening now, And yes, I do worry that

796
00:39:03,758 --> 00:39:07,158
Speaker 1: it expands to something more. But if they can keep

797
00:39:07,198 --> 00:39:09,638
Speaker 1: it within these guardrails, I think it's a good thing.

798
00:39:10,038 --> 00:39:12,278
Speaker 3: But the three to two count could be the first inning, right,

799
00:39:12,318 --> 00:39:14,158
Speaker 3: the three two count the bases though it is, it

800
00:39:14,158 --> 00:39:16,958
Speaker 3: could be you know, that's because right and if you

801
00:39:16,998 --> 00:39:19,118
Speaker 3: are right, do you get to retain this challenge or

802
00:39:19,118 --> 00:39:19,678
Speaker 3: does it just go.

803
00:39:19,718 --> 00:39:21,798
Speaker 2: You only get two yes, so you could keep that

804
00:39:21,838 --> 00:39:22,638
Speaker 2: in a perpetuity.

805
00:39:22,678 --> 00:39:24,518
Speaker 3: Only get two that are okay, so you could like

806
00:39:24,758 --> 00:39:26,438
Speaker 3: you could actually have nine during the course of the game.

807
00:39:26,478 --> 00:39:28,038
Speaker 2: Ten during the course of the game. You could okay

808
00:39:28,078 --> 00:39:28,598
Speaker 2: with that.

809
00:39:28,678 --> 00:39:30,878
Speaker 1: Now I could tell you the minor leagues the hit

810
00:39:30,958 --> 00:39:33,278
Speaker 1: rate on getting those challenges right, it's about fifty to

811
00:39:33,318 --> 00:39:35,398
Speaker 1: fifty the same as it is on the basis right

812
00:39:35,438 --> 00:39:36,318
Speaker 1: now the major leagues.

813
00:39:36,478 --> 00:39:36,678
Speaker 2: Right.

814
00:39:36,958 --> 00:39:39,558
Speaker 3: And again, who you're going to permit to to make

815
00:39:39,598 --> 00:39:41,758
Speaker 3: these calls? I know, I guess the catcher is a

816
00:39:41,798 --> 00:39:43,638
Speaker 3: popular part of this, or should be.

817
00:39:43,878 --> 00:39:45,718
Speaker 1: You can catch your hitter, that's it. You can't look

818
00:39:45,718 --> 00:39:48,838
Speaker 1: to the dugout and it has to be done immediately.

819
00:39:48,358 --> 00:39:50,398
Speaker 3: Right, And so I wouldn't rely on the picture at all.

820
00:39:50,638 --> 00:39:53,278
Speaker 3: I mean, there's so much emotion there, Joe.

821
00:39:53,518 --> 00:39:57,718
Speaker 1: The other day, I saw a hitter challenge an oh

822
00:39:57,878 --> 00:40:00,478
Speaker 1: pitch in the first inning and he was wrong. There

823
00:40:00,518 --> 00:40:03,638
Speaker 1: you will as a manager, that will drive you nuts.

824
00:40:04,118 --> 00:40:07,438
Speaker 3: I mean, don't you have to like eliminate those that

825
00:40:07,598 --> 00:40:10,078
Speaker 3: are not permitted to challenges based on their history of

826
00:40:10,198 --> 00:40:11,478
Speaker 3: always bitching a complaining.

827
00:40:11,798 --> 00:40:12,638
Speaker 2: I mean, there's all that.

828
00:40:12,678 --> 00:40:15,958
Speaker 3: And how about the time the catcher chooses because I

829
00:40:16,518 --> 00:40:19,478
Speaker 3: had heard that the pitcher was not going to be permitted,

830
00:40:19,558 --> 00:40:21,918
Speaker 3: or the teams are trying to keep him out of

831
00:40:21,958 --> 00:40:24,918
Speaker 3: it because he's too emotional in regards to whether the

832
00:40:24,958 --> 00:40:26,638
Speaker 3: pitcher is a ball or a strike. But my concern

833
00:40:26,678 --> 00:40:29,078
Speaker 3: there would be that the catcher, if that were the

834
00:40:29,118 --> 00:40:32,078
Speaker 3: case of the catcher chooses to not challenge the pitch

835
00:40:32,478 --> 00:40:35,078
Speaker 3: it was a ball. After the thing's over, they found

836
00:40:35,118 --> 00:40:36,998
Speaker 3: out that it was a strike, and all of a

837
00:40:37,038 --> 00:40:39,998
Speaker 3: sudden you have this potential argument between a pitcher and

838
00:40:40,038 --> 00:40:42,598
Speaker 3: the catcher based on whether we challenge it or not.

839
00:40:42,798 --> 00:40:45,358
Speaker 3: There's there's all kinds of little built in here that

840
00:40:46,118 --> 00:40:47,958
Speaker 3: I think, of course, he got to play through it

841
00:40:47,998 --> 00:40:50,838
Speaker 3: over course of time and we'll find the conclusion. They're

842
00:40:50,878 --> 00:40:53,198
Speaker 3: going to find tune it. I get all that, But again,

843
00:40:54,318 --> 00:40:57,958
Speaker 3: we're in starch of perfection all the time, and I've

844
00:40:57,998 --> 00:41:00,758
Speaker 3: always unized to tell I should tell Troy Glossi all

845
00:41:00,798 --> 00:41:04,198
Speaker 3: the time in the before the game, is at his

846
00:41:04,238 --> 00:41:06,358
Speaker 3: seat in the clubhouse, or sometimes during the course of

847
00:41:06,398 --> 00:41:09,758
Speaker 3: the game. Perfection is a boring concept, it really is.

848
00:41:09,798 --> 00:41:13,598
Speaker 3: I mean, if we arrive at perfection, why do it?

849
00:41:14,438 --> 00:41:15,238
Speaker 2: What's the point here?

850
00:41:15,478 --> 00:41:17,478
Speaker 3: But if everything has to be perfect all the time,

851
00:41:17,678 --> 00:41:19,598
Speaker 3: I think we always have to be seek to be perfect.

852
00:41:19,718 --> 00:41:25,598
Speaker 3: I don't like machines, this continually subtracting passion from.

853
00:41:25,358 --> 00:41:28,278
Speaker 2: The game and just pure.

854
00:41:29,798 --> 00:41:32,878
Speaker 3: We're waiting on this thing to tell us whether we

855
00:41:32,878 --> 00:41:35,638
Speaker 3: were right or wrong, and then we accept it blindly.

856
00:41:35,638 --> 00:41:38,398
Speaker 3: And that's it, because now the emotion is gone from

857
00:41:38,438 --> 00:41:41,398
Speaker 3: all of this. We're subtracting passion and the emotion constantly.

858
00:41:41,398 --> 00:41:44,638
Speaker 3: The more engagement we get from technology, those human qualities

859
00:41:44,638 --> 00:41:46,638
Speaker 3: go away. And to me, that was a big part

860
00:41:46,678 --> 00:41:48,078
Speaker 3: of why you're in the digout and why you love

861
00:41:48,118 --> 00:41:48,878
Speaker 3: the game so much.

862
00:41:49,518 --> 00:41:52,238
Speaker 1: Well, just to put a kicker on our Eddie Goodell's

863
00:41:52,278 --> 00:41:55,678
Speaker 1: story here, he passed away in nineteen sixty one and

864
00:41:56,518 --> 00:42:00,558
Speaker 1: there was one baseball person who came to his funeral,

865
00:42:00,798 --> 00:42:04,118
Speaker 1: which was in Chicago, and that was the picture who

866
00:42:04,118 --> 00:42:07,198
Speaker 1: walked him. Bob Kane drove three hundred miles from Cleveland

867
00:42:07,198 --> 00:42:10,398
Speaker 1: to Chicago to be there to say goodbye to Eddie Goodell.

868
00:42:10,518 --> 00:42:13,198
Speaker 1: Now Bill Veck did send flowers, wasn't able to make

869
00:42:13,238 --> 00:42:15,158
Speaker 1: it there, But I thought that was just a cool

870
00:42:15,238 --> 00:42:17,478
Speaker 1: kicker to the story that you know it was ten

871
00:42:17,558 --> 00:42:21,958
Speaker 1: years later. Bob kin and like Frank Soche, was just

872
00:42:21,998 --> 00:42:24,238
Speaker 1: tied to this event, no matter what else he did

873
00:42:24,278 --> 00:42:27,398
Speaker 1: in his career, more than anything else, wanted to go

874
00:42:27,478 --> 00:42:31,238
Speaker 1: say goodbye to again. If you look at the photograph.

875
00:42:31,318 --> 00:42:33,638
Speaker 1: You haven't seen him before. I don't know where you've been,

876
00:42:33,718 --> 00:42:37,238
Speaker 1: but it's one of the most famous photographs in baseball history.

877
00:42:37,318 --> 00:42:40,518
Speaker 1: The catcher on his knees and Eddie Goodell, as you mentioned,

878
00:42:40,598 --> 00:42:44,158
Speaker 1: Joe and his crouch at the plate. Couldn't be possible

879
00:42:44,198 --> 00:42:49,198
Speaker 1: something like that in today's game. So that's Frank Soche

880
00:42:49,238 --> 00:42:51,078
Speaker 1: died at the age of ninety eight, was the batter

881
00:42:51,078 --> 00:42:53,198
Speaker 1: who gave up his at bet for one of the

882
00:42:53,238 --> 00:42:59,118
Speaker 1: most famous pin hitting appearances in baseball history. That's what

883
00:42:59,278 --> 00:43:00,958
Speaker 1: I want to talk about next, Joe, and we're to

884
00:43:00,958 --> 00:43:05,198
Speaker 1: take a quick break. Here is a manager and of

885
00:43:05,198 --> 00:43:08,718
Speaker 1: course subject near and dear to your heart, managers and salaries.

886
00:43:09,198 --> 00:43:12,438
Speaker 1: We have a new top salary among managers. We'll talk

887
00:43:12,478 --> 00:43:24,878
Speaker 1: about that right after this on the Book of Joe.

888
00:43:25,678 --> 00:43:28,558
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Book of Joe. And Joe probably

889
00:43:28,598 --> 00:43:31,798
Speaker 1: heard and saw Dave Roberts of the LA Dodgers finally

890
00:43:32,598 --> 00:43:37,278
Speaker 1: signed his contract extension. He's only just done a terrific

891
00:43:37,358 --> 00:43:40,198
Speaker 1: job for the LA Dodgers, won a couple of World championships,

892
00:43:41,038 --> 00:43:44,878
Speaker 1: but he did leap Craig Council as the highest paid

893
00:43:44,918 --> 00:43:48,878
Speaker 1: manager in baseball history. Craig Council had a five year,

894
00:43:48,998 --> 00:43:52,678
Speaker 1: forty million dollars deal from the Cubs, and Roberts has

895
00:43:52,718 --> 00:43:55,638
Speaker 1: gone above that at an average annual value of eight

896
00:43:55,678 --> 00:44:00,398
Speaker 1: point one million dollars. Well deserved. It's not a surprise, Joe.

897
00:44:00,398 --> 00:44:03,438
Speaker 1: I think we all knew that once that Council contract

898
00:44:03,478 --> 00:44:05,958
Speaker 1: was signed at Dave Roberts, with a World championship or

899
00:44:05,998 --> 00:44:08,078
Speaker 1: two under his belt, was going to surpass him. And

900
00:44:08,118 --> 00:44:11,758
Speaker 1: he has. The salaries haven't moved all that much, certainly,

901
00:44:11,798 --> 00:44:14,318
Speaker 1: not like players. But what was your reaction when you

902
00:44:14,358 --> 00:44:15,958
Speaker 1: heard about this deal for Dave Roberts.

903
00:44:16,238 --> 00:44:18,518
Speaker 3: Very happy, very happy for David. The right thing to

904
00:44:18,558 --> 00:44:21,918
Speaker 3: do kind of stuff. I mean, obviously, they've been at

905
00:44:21,958 --> 00:44:24,758
Speaker 3: the top of the industry for several years now. Even

906
00:44:24,758 --> 00:44:27,278
Speaker 3: when they don't win the final game of the season,

907
00:44:27,318 --> 00:44:29,918
Speaker 3: they're still in position to win the final game of

908
00:44:29,958 --> 00:44:32,838
Speaker 3: the season. I know Dave pretty well. I really enjoyed

909
00:44:32,878 --> 00:44:36,718
Speaker 3: working against him. We had some really good conversations. He's

910
00:44:36,838 --> 00:44:39,518
Speaker 3: very polished, he handles things really well, with a real

911
00:44:39,598 --> 00:44:44,078
Speaker 3: human touch about him. I think he speaks passionately and

912
00:44:44,158 --> 00:44:48,478
Speaker 3: directly regarding whatever the topic might be. I'm not been

913
00:44:48,598 --> 00:44:51,318
Speaker 3: with him in an actual clubhouse situation with his players,

914
00:44:51,318 --> 00:44:54,318
Speaker 3: but I would believe that it's an easy conversation that

915
00:44:54,358 --> 00:44:56,118
Speaker 3: he has with all the guys there as well as

916
00:44:56,958 --> 00:44:59,398
Speaker 3: his coaches in the front office. He's a great conduit

917
00:44:59,438 --> 00:45:01,238
Speaker 3: to everything that happens out there. There's a lot going

918
00:45:01,238 --> 00:45:04,438
Speaker 3: on being a manager of the Dodgers, and that's and

919
00:45:04,878 --> 00:45:07,158
Speaker 3: all the aboves, so I'm really happy for him.

920
00:45:07,638 --> 00:45:10,358
Speaker 2: He loves wine too. I think he's got his own.

921
00:45:12,078 --> 00:45:15,198
Speaker 1: A bottle of vineyard or I think it's red Seam,

922
00:45:15,318 --> 00:45:15,678
Speaker 1: isn't it.

923
00:45:16,038 --> 00:45:18,318
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's right. Red seem very good. So anyway,

924
00:45:18,358 --> 00:45:19,398
Speaker 3: I'm very happy for all that.

925
00:45:19,438 --> 00:45:19,918
Speaker 2: For David.

926
00:45:19,958 --> 00:45:23,638
Speaker 3: He's he's a wonderful guy and absolutely if anybody deserves

927
00:45:23,638 --> 00:45:25,158
Speaker 3: to be the highest paid manager, he does.

928
00:45:25,438 --> 00:45:27,758
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, I mean the Dodgers, we all know about

929
00:45:27,798 --> 00:45:30,998
Speaker 1: their talent and their resources, but don't short change his

930
00:45:31,038 --> 00:45:33,118
Speaker 1: abilities as a manager. I think he's as good as

931
00:45:33,158 --> 00:45:38,558
Speaker 1: there is. He's a connector people like to be around

932
00:45:38,678 --> 00:45:40,958
Speaker 1: Dave Roberts, right. But at the same time, Joey, you

933
00:45:41,038 --> 00:45:45,558
Speaker 1: know this, he's got a really strong competitive streak in him.

934
00:45:45,718 --> 00:45:47,958
Speaker 1: You know, don't get on his bad side. You know,

935
00:45:48,078 --> 00:45:50,438
Speaker 1: he's got an edge to him when he needs it,

936
00:45:50,518 --> 00:45:53,478
Speaker 1: and he doesn't have to show it when it's not necessary.

937
00:45:54,158 --> 00:45:56,518
Speaker 1: But the biggest thing for me is the guys trust him.

938
00:45:56,638 --> 00:45:59,598
Speaker 1: You know, he's a very just an honest, nice human

939
00:45:59,678 --> 00:46:02,438
Speaker 1: being that people like being around and players like to

940
00:46:02,438 --> 00:46:05,518
Speaker 1: play for him. So good for Dave Roberts. It is

941
00:46:05,598 --> 00:46:06,318
Speaker 1: well earned.

942
00:46:06,678 --> 00:46:10,318
Speaker 3: Yeah, price publicly criticized privately, I think he does that well.

943
00:46:11,278 --> 00:46:14,798
Speaker 2: He'll show his emotion on the bench during a good moment.

944
00:46:15,358 --> 00:46:17,438
Speaker 3: In the bad moments, he'll just give you that stern look,

945
00:46:17,478 --> 00:46:22,438
Speaker 3: but you're not really seeing an over reacting negative kind

946
00:46:22,438 --> 00:46:24,838
Speaker 3: of influence for the group on the bench because everybody's

947
00:46:24,838 --> 00:46:27,118
Speaker 3: always looking at the manager in both good and bad times,

948
00:46:27,198 --> 00:46:29,518
Speaker 3: especially in the bad time. So I think he wears

949
00:46:29,518 --> 00:46:32,398
Speaker 3: it well. I think he handles it well. And again

950
00:46:32,438 --> 00:46:34,518
Speaker 3: I'm very happy for him and Andrew. I mean, Andrew's

951
00:46:34,518 --> 00:46:36,798
Speaker 3: stepping up. The whole group stepping up and doing that

952
00:46:36,838 --> 00:46:39,718
Speaker 3: for him. I know when he first came on board

953
00:46:39,718 --> 00:46:44,718
Speaker 3: there there was like other people that there being promoted,

954
00:46:44,798 --> 00:46:48,038
Speaker 3: such as I think Gay Kapelaer was, and eventually they

955
00:46:48,078 --> 00:46:48,798
Speaker 3: stuck with David.

956
00:46:48,838 --> 00:46:49,718
Speaker 2: It was a great decision.

957
00:46:49,798 --> 00:46:52,118
Speaker 1: Yeah, how about Andrew Friedman. By the way, the Dodgers.

958
00:46:52,158 --> 00:46:55,558
Speaker 1: They had won three straight division titles under Don Mattingly

959
00:46:56,198 --> 00:46:58,198
Speaker 1: when Andrew made the move to Dave Roberts, you know,

960
00:46:58,238 --> 00:47:01,158
Speaker 1: trying to get them deeper in the postseason. Pretty good

961
00:47:01,198 --> 00:47:03,998
Speaker 1: track record, I would say for mister Andrew Friedman, hiring

962
00:47:04,078 --> 00:47:06,838
Speaker 1: Joe Madden and Tampa Bay and Dave Roberts and with

963
00:47:06,918 --> 00:47:09,398
Speaker 1: the LA Dodgers, I mean, it's it's what to me, Joe,

964
00:47:09,398 --> 00:47:12,478
Speaker 1: it's one of the underrated parts of being a president

965
00:47:12,558 --> 00:47:16,518
Speaker 1: baseball operations, general manager, you name your title, was finding

966
00:47:16,558 --> 00:47:18,398
Speaker 1: the right person to lead your team, someone you can

967
00:47:18,438 --> 00:47:20,998
Speaker 1: work with, and more importantly, some of the players can

968
00:47:21,038 --> 00:47:23,798
Speaker 1: work with. That's those are two home runs for Andrew Friedman.

969
00:47:24,278 --> 00:47:27,838
Speaker 3: Acquisitional process, that's that's what they he does so well.

970
00:47:28,438 --> 00:47:30,518
Speaker 3: I actually sit with Andrew all the time and we

971
00:47:30,558 --> 00:47:33,078
Speaker 3: would talk about players whatever, and I say, I'd always

972
00:47:33,078 --> 00:47:34,758
Speaker 3: tell him, you're a good scout. You know that you're

973
00:47:34,758 --> 00:47:37,678
Speaker 3: a really good scout. Because he was a young man,

974
00:47:38,398 --> 00:47:41,798
Speaker 3: younger than me obviously, and he would just break people down,

975
00:47:41,958 --> 00:47:44,678
Speaker 3: break players down. And I was really impressed with his

976
00:47:45,238 --> 00:47:49,118
Speaker 3: acumen having not done pro ball, you know, never did

977
00:47:49,118 --> 00:47:50,918
Speaker 3: the big leagues as a player whatever. Like a lot

978
00:47:50,958 --> 00:47:53,438
Speaker 3: of guys haven't. But the way he spoke and the

979
00:47:53,438 --> 00:47:55,518
Speaker 3: way he saw things. I was always impressed with that.

980
00:47:55,598 --> 00:47:58,998
Speaker 3: He's always had that gift, so you know, I was

981
00:47:59,038 --> 00:48:02,078
Speaker 3: fortunate to be part of that also. But yeah, he's

982
00:48:02,238 --> 00:48:05,158
Speaker 3: really at that go from Tulane all the way up

983
00:48:05,358 --> 00:48:08,478
Speaker 3: where he started out. I though his mom really well barbed.

984
00:48:08,478 --> 00:48:10,518
Speaker 3: I mean, this is it's a lot of good stuff

985
00:48:10,558 --> 00:48:13,678
Speaker 3: going on there. He's very grounded, almost shy. Sometimes it

986
00:48:13,678 --> 00:48:15,638
Speaker 3: looks like he's becoming more of an introvert lately, but

987
00:48:16,198 --> 00:48:19,198
Speaker 3: he was always really good at player evaluation. I've always

988
00:48:19,278 --> 00:48:21,118
Speaker 3: used to tell him that back in the day.

989
00:48:21,358 --> 00:48:24,078
Speaker 1: Congratulations to Dave Roberts, one of the good guys in

990
00:48:24,118 --> 00:48:27,638
Speaker 1: the game and certainly one of the best managers. With that, Joe,

991
00:48:27,758 --> 00:48:29,958
Speaker 1: and ask you to take us home. What do you

992
00:48:29,998 --> 00:48:33,038
Speaker 1: got for us to end this episode of the Book

993
00:48:33,078 --> 00:48:33,678
Speaker 1: of Joe.

994
00:48:33,718 --> 00:48:36,398
Speaker 3: Really again touches on everything we've been talking about today

995
00:48:36,398 --> 00:48:41,478
Speaker 3: a little bit. The truth and what is the truth then?

996
00:48:42,198 --> 00:48:44,598
Speaker 3: And then how do you decipher in your own minds?

997
00:48:44,638 --> 00:48:47,758
Speaker 3: I would the truth actually is it's such a controversial subject.

998
00:48:47,758 --> 00:48:49,838
Speaker 3: There's when we were growing up, there was the truth,

999
00:48:49,878 --> 00:48:52,518
Speaker 3: and there was there was not truth. There lies, but

1000
00:48:53,038 --> 00:48:55,318
Speaker 3: it's such a gray area anymore. And this comes from

1001
00:48:55,318 --> 00:48:57,958
Speaker 3: Andy Rooney from the old sixty Minutes stays, and he

1002
00:48:58,038 --> 00:49:00,318
Speaker 3: might have gotten his somewhere else, but he was pretty

1003
00:49:00,478 --> 00:49:03,398
Speaker 3: interesting to follow on a weekly basis on sixty minutes.

1004
00:49:03,438 --> 00:49:08,118
Speaker 3: But people will generally accept facts as truth only if

1005
00:49:08,158 --> 00:49:09,078
Speaker 3: the facts.

1006
00:49:08,798 --> 00:49:10,438
Speaker 2: Agree with what they already believe.

1007
00:49:10,678 --> 00:49:12,878
Speaker 3: And I think that happens to all of us, and

1008
00:49:13,198 --> 00:49:16,838
Speaker 3: I really try to guard against that with my own opinions.

1009
00:49:16,878 --> 00:49:19,918
Speaker 3: Like we were talking, whenever we talk here, I really

1010
00:49:19,958 --> 00:49:23,678
Speaker 3: try to keep it as pure as I possibly can,

1011
00:49:23,718 --> 00:49:24,398
Speaker 3: and I think I do.

1012
00:49:25,998 --> 00:49:26,438
Speaker 2: I've done.

1013
00:49:26,518 --> 00:49:29,238
Speaker 3: We're talking about scouting and Andrew Rees in the last

1014
00:49:29,238 --> 00:49:32,278
Speaker 3: moment here, But as a scouter, as somebody that's running

1015
00:49:32,278 --> 00:49:34,758
Speaker 3: a minor league system, which I did for a while,

1016
00:49:34,958 --> 00:49:37,598
Speaker 3: I mean, you have to really set aside your personal

1017
00:49:37,638 --> 00:49:41,038
Speaker 3: opinions whether you like somebody or not, to really drill

1018
00:49:41,078 --> 00:49:42,758
Speaker 3: down and find out whether you think he's good or

1019
00:49:42,798 --> 00:49:45,718
Speaker 3: not at this particular game. Too many times I would

1020
00:49:45,758 --> 00:49:49,558
Speaker 3: see coaches, you know, managers in the minor league meeting

1021
00:49:49,638 --> 00:49:53,118
Speaker 3: where they would permit their their evaluation of the player

1022
00:49:53,278 --> 00:49:55,838
Speaker 3: be influenced by whether they liked him or not, not,

1023
00:49:55,918 --> 00:49:57,598
Speaker 3: whether he was a good player or not, whether it's

1024
00:49:57,598 --> 00:50:00,238
Speaker 3: two's plate or not, and that always bothered me. So

1025
00:50:00,998 --> 00:50:05,078
Speaker 3: I really try to divorce myself from my personal feelings

1026
00:50:05,118 --> 00:50:07,878
Speaker 3: about whatever when you ask me opinion on we're talking

1027
00:50:07,958 --> 00:50:11,758
Speaker 3: baseball right now, a player's opinion on a player, or

1028
00:50:12,158 --> 00:50:14,478
Speaker 3: what I think in general. So you have to really

1029
00:50:16,078 --> 00:50:18,998
Speaker 3: kind of be able to separate your own personal worries,

1030
00:50:19,078 --> 00:50:21,678
Speaker 3: what do I believe in? What are my truth for

1031
00:50:21,718 --> 00:50:24,918
Speaker 3: what you're actually seeing out there, and really leave the emotion,

1032
00:50:25,038 --> 00:50:28,238
Speaker 3: put the emotion aside. So I think that's what Rouney

1033
00:50:28,398 --> 00:50:30,718
Speaker 3: was talking about, and I think that's the best. I mean,

1034
00:50:30,718 --> 00:50:32,278
Speaker 3: if you're going to run a minor league system, and

1035
00:50:32,278 --> 00:50:34,438
Speaker 3: of course the major league system, but that was my

1036
00:50:35,558 --> 00:50:38,798
Speaker 3: grandest tenant, was to really try to keep the emotion

1037
00:50:38,958 --> 00:50:41,998
Speaker 3: out of it, keep your likes and dislikes out of it,

1038
00:50:42,078 --> 00:50:45,278
Speaker 3: and really bore down to the basics of what are

1039
00:50:45,278 --> 00:50:47,878
Speaker 3: we seeing, What do the five tools look like?

1040
00:50:48,358 --> 00:50:50,398
Speaker 2: Does he have the kind of makeup you know? Is he.

1041
00:50:52,358 --> 00:50:54,398
Speaker 3: Motivated? Is he not motivated? What was his work ethic

1042
00:50:54,438 --> 00:50:57,038
Speaker 3: look like? These are the things that really mattered, not

1043
00:50:57,158 --> 00:50:59,118
Speaker 3: whether or not you liked the guy or not, because

1044
00:50:59,118 --> 00:51:00,478
Speaker 3: you might have weren't an airring, or you don't like

1045
00:51:00,518 --> 00:51:02,438
Speaker 3: the way where it's hair, something to that effect.

1046
00:51:02,558 --> 00:51:05,838
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really why advice, I think in any line

1047
00:51:05,838 --> 00:51:08,318
Speaker 1: of work, not just baseball. I mean you're telling listen,

1048
00:51:08,358 --> 00:51:11,758
Speaker 1: we're all human beings, right, we all have these unconscious biases,

1049
00:51:12,358 --> 00:51:14,838
Speaker 1: and I think what you're talking about is being aware

1050
00:51:14,878 --> 00:51:18,438
Speaker 1: as much as you can of those biases, right, and

1051
00:51:18,478 --> 00:51:21,078
Speaker 1: not just let them go unchecked. And I think it's

1052
00:51:21,078 --> 00:51:23,958
Speaker 1: great advice, especially when you're talking about either scouting or

1053
00:51:24,198 --> 00:51:28,798
Speaker 1: player analysis, player evaluation, to kind of check those biases

1054
00:51:28,838 --> 00:51:31,038
Speaker 1: that naturally you have as a human being.

1055
00:51:31,318 --> 00:51:33,878
Speaker 3: There was Nelson Demil novel I used to read all

1056
00:51:33,958 --> 00:51:37,998
Speaker 3: I read most of Nelson demials. It was about the

1057
00:51:38,118 --> 00:51:40,678
Speaker 3: Vietnam War. I'm trying to remember exactly the title, but

1058
00:51:41,878 --> 00:51:47,078
Speaker 3: it was about the Meli massacre and years after following

1059
00:51:47,838 --> 00:51:51,718
Speaker 3: the leader, the platoon leader of that group comes to

1060
00:51:51,758 --> 00:51:54,758
Speaker 3: be coming to court martial. They're going to court martial

1061
00:51:54,878 --> 00:51:58,838
Speaker 3: him and as opposed to the members of the platoon

1062
00:51:58,838 --> 00:52:00,718
Speaker 3: who actually committed the atrocities whatever.

1063
00:52:01,238 --> 00:52:03,478
Speaker 2: But it comes down to the point that at the.

1064
00:52:03,518 --> 00:52:07,118
Speaker 3: End of the day, the platoon leaders, guys, is the

1065
00:52:07,118 --> 00:52:11,398
Speaker 3: person that's going to be let go as opposed to

1066
00:52:11,438 --> 00:52:16,198
Speaker 3: the platoon if in fact the methods of the organization

1067
00:52:16,278 --> 00:52:18,758
Speaker 3: on fall. That was my way to describe it to

1068
00:52:18,798 --> 00:52:21,318
Speaker 3: the coaches and the managers. Listen, you might always agree

1069
00:52:21,358 --> 00:52:22,718
Speaker 3: with this, but at the end of the day, if

1070
00:52:22,758 --> 00:52:26,598
Speaker 3: your players are not developing, if they're not getting better,

1071
00:52:26,678 --> 00:52:30,398
Speaker 3: if they're not whatever their organizational policies, rules and regulations are,

1072
00:52:30,438 --> 00:52:33,078
Speaker 3: if they're not being upheld, then they're not going to

1073
00:52:33,118 --> 00:52:36,238
Speaker 3: go after the individual players of the platoon, always going

1074
00:52:36,238 --> 00:52:38,558
Speaker 3: to go after the platoon leader. And I would try

1075
00:52:38,558 --> 00:52:40,598
Speaker 3: to get them to understand that in regards to like

1076
00:52:40,638 --> 00:52:45,798
Speaker 3: we just talked about, really, regardless of your perception of

1077
00:52:45,798 --> 00:52:49,678
Speaker 3: truth is keep your emotion out of it. Really try

1078
00:52:49,718 --> 00:52:53,638
Speaker 3: to understand exactly what am I seeing right here and

1079
00:52:53,678 --> 00:52:57,158
Speaker 3: react from there, but always keeping in mind whatever the

1080
00:52:57,598 --> 00:52:59,798
Speaker 3: tenants are of this group, they have to be adhere to.

1081
00:52:59,838 --> 00:53:02,118
Speaker 3: And as the platoon leader, you're the guy that's going

1082
00:53:02,198 --> 00:53:04,318
Speaker 3: to be in trouble as opposed to the platoon.

1083
00:53:04,358 --> 00:53:06,758
Speaker 1: It so, I gotta admit I didn't have the Vietnam

1084
00:53:06,838 --> 00:53:09,598
Speaker 1: War my Bengo card for today's episode of the Book

1085
00:53:09,638 --> 00:53:11,638
Speaker 1: of Joe, But that's why I say it's the most

1086
00:53:11,718 --> 00:53:15,678
Speaker 1: interesting baseball podcast on the planet. You never know where

1087
00:53:15,878 --> 00:53:18,838
Speaker 1: we will go. Yeah, another good one, Joe, thanks a

1088
00:53:18,838 --> 00:53:19,118
Speaker 1: lot

1089
00:53:19,318 --> 00:53:22,478
Speaker 3: Thanks brother, See you later, man.