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Speaker 1: I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way,

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Speaker 1: there's no way. And the first thing I do is

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Speaker 1: get my phone and I probably said like I fucking

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Speaker 1: hate you or something like that. What she replies back

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Speaker 1: is where are you right now? Not what are you

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Speaker 1: talking about?

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about

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Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

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Speaker 2: change everything.

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Speaker 1: I can go to a middy who I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I cry first dances with dads dead.

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Speaker 2: That's mckentie. She's the kind of person who has a

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Speaker 2: heart exterior is a big softy on the inside.

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Speaker 1: I'm on the floor. It's so a big baby. I

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Speaker 1: just love love.

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Speaker 2: And she has a story unlike any we've ever heard.

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Speaker 2: It starts as the story of two sisters, Mackenzie and

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Speaker 2: her older sister who were calling Lee.

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Speaker 1: She was my very best friend, shared a bedroom. We

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Speaker 1: would dance and sing to backsheet boys and in sync

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Speaker 1: all the time.

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Speaker 2: As kids, Mackenzie and Lee did everything together.

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Speaker 1: We were attached at the hip for a long time.

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Speaker 1: She used to make me come to her sleepovers because

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Speaker 1: she would get homesick, So me, as an eight year old,

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Speaker 1: would be coming along to these like cool preteen sleepovers

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Speaker 1: with all of her best friends.

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Speaker 2: Even though Mackenzie was three years younger than.

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Speaker 1: Lee, I was the bigger little sister, so I was

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Speaker 1: I was taller than Lee. I acted like the older sibling,

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Speaker 1: so I would take care of her.

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Speaker 2: For a while, Mackenzie tried to be just like her

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Speaker 2: older sister.

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Speaker 1: She had so many friends, and all of her friends

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Speaker 1: were pretty, and she had so many guy friends, and

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Speaker 1: so many guys liked her. So I just always wanted

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Speaker 1: to be in her realm to see how does she

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Speaker 1: do it? Because I couldn't figure out, for the life

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Speaker 1: of me how to connect with men. So I'm watching

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Speaker 1: her with boys. I was, oh, I gotta watch my

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Speaker 1: big sister.

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Speaker 2: But as they grew up, Mackenzie became her own person.

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Speaker 1: That was a comboy. I don't want to wear a dress.

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Speaker 1: I was very athletic and very good at softball. My

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Speaker 1: goal at that point was I'm going to get a

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Speaker 1: scholarship go to school in the States, and then I

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Speaker 1: wanted to try to get to the Olympics. Fifteen.

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Speaker 2: Canada softball became McKenzie's life. Her sister played two, but

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Speaker 2: she didn't take it as seriously as Mackenzie.

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Speaker 1: She played high level, so she had tournaments and stuff,

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Speaker 1: but she was a huge, huge party or in high school.

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie was three years younger. They were in different stages

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Speaker 2: of their life.

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Speaker 1: Lee's off getting drunk in a field somewhere, and I'm

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Speaker 1: the one that's like, can I have twenty dollars to do?

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Speaker 1: In the movies on Friday.

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Speaker 2: Lee was cool, but she wasn't too cool to have

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Speaker 2: her younger sister around.

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Speaker 1: This is my cool sister, Like she's graduated and we're

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Speaker 1: listening to Lose That by Eminem in the car in

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Speaker 1: our Toyota Echo.

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Speaker 2: After Lee graduated from high school, she moved in with

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Speaker 2: her boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: And then he cheated on her, so she ends up

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Speaker 1: moving back home.

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Speaker 2: It was the early two thousands and Facebook was brand new.

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Speaker 2: Everyone was navigating social media for the first time.

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Speaker 1: And of course Lee's pretty, so she had something up

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Speaker 1: where it's like two thousand friends, and I remember Lee

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Speaker 1: came to me and was like, Oh, I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: this guy that added me on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Lee showed Mackenzie a photo of the guy who had

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Speaker 2: reached out to her. His name was Ryan.

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Speaker 1: He was very good looking and muscular, kind of a

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Speaker 1: buzz cut, dark eyes, really nice smile, ripped all that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff when you're nineteen turning twenty you're looking for.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't just about Ryan's looks. Lee had been

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Speaker 2: sharing her writing on Facebook and he had taken the

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Speaker 2: time to read it.

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Speaker 1: She's like, he messaged me saying he really clicked with

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Speaker 1: my poetry and he really liked it.

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Speaker 2: It was sweet. Mackenzie looked at Ryan's Facebook profile and

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Speaker 2: noticed that they had a shared mutual friend Lee's softball

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Speaker 2: teammate Amy.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, well, did you pop Dan

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Speaker 1: me and Lee? She's like, yeah, Actually she texted me

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Speaker 1: and said, oh, how do you know Ryan? And obviously

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Speaker 1: Lee he's like, well, I don't. He had me on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: It was re assuring for Lee to talk to somebody

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Speaker 2: that knew Ryan in real life.

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Speaker 1: Amy's like, oh, when I was in Calgary, he was

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Speaker 1: living there and we worked together for like a year,

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Speaker 1: and he's one of my really good friends. He's such

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Speaker 1: a good guy.

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Speaker 2: Lee and Ryan started talking. They got along really well

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Speaker 2: and would spend hours each day messaging back and forth.

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Speaker 2: Even though they lived in different cities, they found creative

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Speaker 2: ways to have long distance states. Within a few months.

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Speaker 1: They are literally Facebook official. They both have it on

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Speaker 1: their Facebook.

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Speaker 2: In December of two thousand and nine, Mackenzie was going

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Speaker 2: through her first real breakup. Lee encouraged Sure to get

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Speaker 2: back on the dating scene.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's like, oh, Ryan wants to talk to you. No,

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Speaker 1: like you want to talk to me, Like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: He says he has a cousin that you'd really like.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, okay.

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Speaker 2: Ryan reached out to McKenzie to vouch for his cousin.

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Speaker 1: You guys would really get along. He really likes baseball,

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Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff, And I'm like, okay, if

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Speaker 1: you're vouching for him, Ryan's a great guy, so I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna listen.

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie decided to give this guy a shot. His name

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Speaker 2: was Matt. He and Ryan both lived on the East

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Speaker 2: Coast of Canada, which was far away from the sisters.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't like just getting the car and drive here.

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Speaker 1: It was airplane six hoverflight hyper deal.

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Speaker 2: After dating long distance for months, Ryan started planning his

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Speaker 2: first trip to visit Lee.

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Speaker 1: He was supposed to come Christmas Eve. So we're looking

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Speaker 1: forward to meeting him. My parents were like okay with

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Speaker 1: him staying here. But then four days before he messages

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Speaker 1: Lee and tells her that he can't come.

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Speaker 2: Ryan's mom had cancer and her health had started declining.

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Speaker 2: He was no longer willing to miss Christmas with her.

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Speaker 1: Lee is beside herself. She's absolutely heartbroken because this was

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Speaker 1: going to be their first meeting.

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Speaker 2: Ryan felt horrible for canceling the trip to He had

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Speaker 2: a special Christmas gift plan for Lee, and in order

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Speaker 2: to make sure it got to her on time, he

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Speaker 2: solicited the help of their mutual friend Amy.

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Speaker 1: Christmas Eve rolls around and Amy shows up with this box,

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Speaker 1: hands it to Lee and it's a Bill de bear

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Speaker 1: And in the card it says, because I can't be

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Speaker 1: there and this is my replacement, like hug him and

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Speaker 1: sleep with him. So that night on she's sleeping with

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Speaker 1: this bear.

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Speaker 2: Everything light As Lee and her boyfriend Ryan got more serious,

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie was starting to develop a crush on his cousin Matt.

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Speaker 2: He'd become a part of her daily life.

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Speaker 1: He was always, you know, messaging me every morning, making

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Speaker 1: sure I got up and pushing me to go to

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Speaker 1: my practices and stuff like that, and then we would

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Speaker 1: we'd talk baseball because he was a Yankees fan, I'm

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Speaker 1: a Blue Jays fan, so we would kind of chirp

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Speaker 1: each other about baseball a lot.

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Speaker 2: But Matt wanted their relationship to be deeper than just

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Speaker 2: chatting about sports.

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Speaker 1: It just kind of slowly turned into, like him kind

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Speaker 1: of saying, I want to date you, I want to

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Speaker 1: bet with you.

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie felt the same way, but she really wanted to

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Speaker 2: meet him in person before they made things official.

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Speaker 1: I am very big on face to base interaction. I

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Speaker 1: need to have that connection before I can say we

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Speaker 1: can meet boyfriend and girlfriend type feel.

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie was cautious, but Matt was really making an effort

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Speaker 2: and that meant a lot to her. Their jokes and

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Speaker 2: sports banter turned to deeper conversations and a real.

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Speaker 1: Connection, validating my feelings and making sure I feel heard

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Speaker 1: and he would call me babe and baby and all

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Matt and Ryan hung out a lot and sent the

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Speaker 2: girls photos of their adventures hiking together, spending time with family,

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Speaker 2: or just small moments in their daily routines. Their friend

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Speaker 2: Amy was happy her matchmaking skills had been such a success.

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Speaker 1: Amy is talking with Lee sporadically, checking in on how

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Speaker 1: her and Ryan are doing and that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Plus it was kind of fun for Mackenzie and Lee

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Speaker 2: to be dating cousins.

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Speaker 1: Me and Lee will say we're watching a movie and

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Speaker 1: then we have Matt and Ryan pressing play on the

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Speaker 1: same time.

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Speaker 2: They'd watch rom coms together. It was sweet. But Lee

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Speaker 2: and Mackenzie were growing tired of the long distance. They

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Speaker 2: would try to plan visits with Matt and Ryan, but

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Speaker 2: it never seemed to be the right time.

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Speaker 1: It was just always, no, you know this, my mom's

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Speaker 1: immune compromise. You can't come here. There's no place for

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Speaker 1: you to stay. Right now. I'm trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: stuff with my mom. I have classes too often, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be working too much. I'm like, well, shit,

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Speaker 1: they have such a hard life. And then well, I'm

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Speaker 1: such a bad person for trying to put my feelings first.

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Speaker 2: Lee, I had never had an online relationship before. It

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Speaker 2: was taking a toll on her.

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Speaker 1: It was endless of her drinking, coming home and she's crying,

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Speaker 1: and she's coming into my bedroom and she's talking about Oh,

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Speaker 1: she's fighting with Ryan and it's her, you know, missing

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Speaker 1: shifts at work. Her friends are now very few and

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Speaker 1: far between. They don't believe that you can fall in

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Speaker 1: love with somebody over the internet. So Lee is now

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Speaker 1: at this point, you know, she's losing her best friend,

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Speaker 1: she's losing her friend group, the people that she usually

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Speaker 1: turns to. I'm now her best friend because I'm in

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Speaker 1: a similar circumstance.

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Speaker 2: The whole situation brought the sisters closer together. McKenzie was

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Speaker 2: at a crossroads. She was graduating high school and thinking

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Speaker 2: about her future. Beckenzie had spent her whole life working

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Speaker 2: towards a career as a professional softball player, and now

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Speaker 2: she was debating if that was the right choice.

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Speaker 1: I just kind of I got to the point where

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be just that's what my identity was.

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Speaker 1: Because my identity, that's all people associated me with. Mackenzie

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Speaker 1: just plays off all that's what she does.

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Speaker 2: So McKenzie made a hard decision. She decided not to

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Speaker 2: go to college.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to take any of my scholarships.

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Speaker 2: If she wasn't in school, she would need a job.

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Speaker 2: When she was lost on what to do, Matt had

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Speaker 2: an idea.

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Speaker 1: Matt let me know that Amy works for a construction

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Speaker 1: company and she can probably get me a job.

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Speaker 2: Amy worked in construction and Matt did too. He told

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie more about how the industry worked.

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Speaker 1: I was going, Yeah, that's totally at my alley, different

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Speaker 1: every day to go into different job sites and all

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So I was like, yeah, forget

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Speaker 1: Matt says, hey, just give her a text and she

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Speaker 1: can probably get you a job.

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Speaker 2: She texted Amy and submitted her resume. Two weeks later,

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Speaker 2: she was hired for the job.

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Speaker 1: My first day, I was super nervous. Amy offered to

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Speaker 1: come on the day off, introduced me to everybody that

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Speaker 1: worked there. Day was like, Wow, she's really down to earth.

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Speaker 1: She's really chill, you know, she's a tomboy like me,

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Speaker 1: very easy to talk to, funny, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe she would go out of her way

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Speaker 1: to try to make me feel comfortable. That's really nice

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Speaker 1: of her. From that point on, we became best friends

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: After graduating high school, Mackenzie took a job in construction

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Speaker 2: with a mutual friend named Amy. Amy had played softball

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Speaker 2: in high school with Mackenzie's sister Lee, but the sisters

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Speaker 2: also knew her through their long distance boyfriends, and over time,

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Speaker 2: mackenzie's friendship with Amy grew.

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Speaker 1: We worked together almost every day. She'd come over to

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Speaker 1: our house a lot. She was very funny and she

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Speaker 1: was very outgoing and just easy to be around. She

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Speaker 1: would come over. We'd watched Jersey Shore every Thursday together. Jersdays,

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Speaker 1: you know this, bumps pushed up chapstick. It was best

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Speaker 1: and her and I like, I could just be me

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Speaker 1: and she was the same. So we fed off each other.

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Speaker 1: You just have two freaking weird people together and that's

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Speaker 1: a vibe.

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Speaker 2: Amy never really dated anyone. When Mackenzie asked her about it,

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Speaker 2: she explained that it was because of her faith.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I just I'm Christian and literally wearing a

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Speaker 1: purity ring like Jonah's brother's stuff, shout out to Jonah's

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Speaker 1: brothers and she but she had a cross on. She

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Speaker 1: was like, that's just how I was raised.

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Speaker 2: But McKenzie liked sharing her love life with Amy, especially

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Speaker 2: because Amy knew her boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: He was my kind of outlet, being like, why is

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Speaker 1: Matt being crazy today? I need you to talk to him.

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Speaker 1: We're same with Lee.

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Speaker 2: McKenzie and Matt's relationship was steady, but Lee and Ryan

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Speaker 2: were really struggling with the distance because Ryan still hadn't

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Speaker 2: come to visit.

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Speaker 1: Every other day. They're arguing, like, why aren't you coming here?

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Speaker 1: And you know my mom's sick, you know I was

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Speaker 1: in a car accident, you know Matt's not doing well.

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Speaker 1: It was very much telling Lee, why are you making

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Speaker 1: me feel bad when my life is in shambles and

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to be supporting me. You're supposed to be

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Speaker 1: my better half.

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Speaker 2: For Mackenzie's nineteenth birthday, Lee and Amy decided to take

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Speaker 2: her out to a bar to celebrate, but as soon

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Speaker 2: as they got there, Lee's.

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Speaker 1: Arguing with Ryan even on my birthday, bbming each other.

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Speaker 1: He's getting mad at her that she's drinking, saying she's

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Speaker 1: drinking too much. Amy's being super weird.

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie chalked it up to the fact that Amy didn't drink.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I need to leave, and I'm kind of like,

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Speaker 1: we just got here. I just had my second beer.

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Speaker 1: She had left my birthday and then the whole night,

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Speaker 1: Lee and Ryan are arguing.

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Speaker 2: The relationship between Lee and Ryan was just plain unhealthy.

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Speaker 1: Lee is now not going out with her friends. Her

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Speaker 1: friends didn't get the online relationship. Why she was adamant

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Speaker 1: that she had to be with this man. This was

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Speaker 1: her bl end doll. She's not leaving her room. I

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Speaker 1: can hear her crying yourself to sleep most night. I

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Speaker 1: can hear She'll send videos to him of her crying

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Speaker 1: and yelling and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Mackenzie would talk to Amy about her and Lee's relationship issues,

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Speaker 2: but often Amy would side with the guys.

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Speaker 1: I'm at work and Amy's being weird and super angry,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, what is wrong? I understand Ryan's your

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Speaker 1: best friend, but you don't need to involve yourself that

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Speaker 1: much into their arguments. Would be talking with Matt Men.

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Speaker 1: I would say something and it would piss him off,

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Speaker 1: and sure enough Amy's giving me the you know, the

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Speaker 1: cold shoulder, and it just was like this cycle of toxicity.

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Speaker 2: Amy couldn't help but get involved in their relationships, especially

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Speaker 2: Lee and Ryan's.

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Speaker 1: We would be on a drive and then Amy would

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Speaker 1: just turn to me and be like, so, your sister

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Speaker 1: and Ryan are fighting. And I'm like, when are they

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Speaker 1: not fighting? And She's like, yeah, what does your sister

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Speaker 1: said about Ryan? Like, what does she feel and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: she's in love with him. I don't think it really matters. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it does matter. And I'm like, well, it's

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Speaker 1: not your relationships. I don't I don't understand why you're

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Speaker 1: asking this. Well, is she talking to any guys when

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00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,240
Speaker 1: she goes out? And I'm like, no, I don't see it.

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Speaker 1: She's will you go with her sometimes you go to

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Speaker 1: the bars. I'm like, I don't think it matters. Amy like,

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Speaker 1: we're literally we're going to get we run to Sound eleven,

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Speaker 1: We're getting slur face and we're getting a two dollar

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Speaker 1: candy bag. We don't need to worry about this right now.

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Speaker 2: It was weird how Amy would involve herself, but McKenzie

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Speaker 2: tried to ignore it. At this point in their friendship.

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Speaker 2: It was twenty ten. A documentary came out that everybody

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Speaker 2: was talking about. Ryan recommended it to Lee.

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Speaker 1: It's called catfish, and we never heard the term.

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Speaker 2: These days, catfishing stories feel like a part of the zeitgeist,

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Speaker 2: but back in twenty ten, this was a brand new concept.

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Speaker 1: Facebook's fresh out the gate. We all are kind of

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00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,880
Speaker 1: getting used to what's going on. Instagram's not even out yet.

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Speaker 1: You trust that everyone is who they say they are.

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Speaker 2: McKenzie was curious about the Catfish documentary.

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Speaker 1: I had talked to Matt, and Matt's like, yeah, I

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00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 1: watched it. It's a really good movie. I think it's

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Speaker 1: something you guys should watch to put your mind at ease.

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Speaker 1: Abous we have Amy then saying, oh, we can watch

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Speaker 1: it together. So now it's me Lee and Amy and

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Speaker 1: we're watching Catfish together. We're like, I couldn't even imagine

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Speaker 1: if that happened to us. That would be devastating. Lee

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Speaker 1: is just like, I'm so glad I found the love

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Speaker 1: of my life. I'm gonna marry and have kids with

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Speaker 1: And I'm glad he told us to watch this movie together.

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Speaker 1: I would be absolutely mortified if that ever happened to me.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you didn't see the songs.

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Speaker 2: At first, it was fun that Mackenzie and Lee's boyfriends

337
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,119
Speaker 2: were cousins and that their best friend Amy knew the

338
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 2: guys too. All of her favorite people knew each other.

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00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: But as time went on, Mackenzie started to feel like

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00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 2: she was stuck in the middle of a complicated web.

341
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,719
Speaker 2: As Lee's relationship with Ryan got worse, it became too

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Speaker 2: much drama for McKenzie.

343
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Speaker 1: Lee's fighting with Ryan, and then Ryan's trying to talk

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Speaker 1: to me because he wants me to calm her down.

345
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: And then I had Matt talking to me saying, this

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Speaker 1: is really bad for Lee and Ryan. You need to help.

347
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,880
Speaker 1: And then I have freaking Amy also being like Ryan

348
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 1: told me they're fighting, and I'm like, I can't do

349
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: this anymore.

350
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Speaker 2: So in January of twenty eleven, Mackenzie broke up with Matt.

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Speaker 2: She told Lee that she needed space from the whole situation,

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Speaker 2: especially her sister's toxic relationship.

353
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Speaker 1: When I stopped talking to Matt, I think that was

354
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Speaker 1: really really hard on her because at this point I

355
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,959
Speaker 1: just can't listen to it, and so now you know

356
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Speaker 1: she's alone in this.

357
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: Essentially, Mackenzie saw the damage that Lee's relationship with Ryan

358
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: was causing. She hardly recognized her vibrant, outgoing older sister.

359
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:16,160
Speaker 1: It just progressively was just her shutting herself off from

360
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Speaker 1: the rest of the world. You can see her just deteriorating.

361
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Speaker 1: She got really, really, really skinny, and it just was, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking.

363
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: McKenzie wasn't in a rush to be in another relationship.

364
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: Matt on the other hand, we did no time finding

365
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Speaker 2: a new girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: One of my best friends approached me and she said, Hey,

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00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: I just want to let you know that Matt has

368
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,959
Speaker 1: messaged me and are you okay if we start talking?

369
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what, girl, do you

370
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Speaker 1: want that freaking bag of worms? You want all that drama?

371
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Speaker 1: All the power to you, sister. So they started talking.

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00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 2: But after a few months, Mackenzie's friend noticed something weird

373
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 2: about her conversation with Matt.

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00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,959
Speaker 1: She brought up the fact that when her and Amy

375
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,199
Speaker 1: hang out and she would text Matt, it seemed like

376
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: Amy's boone was going off. It would vibrate when he

377
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 1: was messaging Matt. I kind of brushed it off, I said, honestly,

378
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,199
Speaker 1: I think it might just be a coincidence. Her and

379
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 1: Matt and Ryan are always talking. Amy's also always talking

380
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 1: to me. It's probably just that kind of thing. And

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Speaker 1: she's a gay right.

382
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 2: But later that night, dalt started to creep into Mackenzie's

383
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 2: mind for the first time, she let herself consider the

384
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: question what if Matt and Ryan weren't real? As she

385
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 2: thought back on their relationship, little details that seemed like

386
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: nothing at the time all started to add.

387
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 1: Up, all the gifts we've gotten are hand given to

388
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: us from Amy, never in the mail, never got an address.

389
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: And then I had a blanket was handmade from Matt,

390
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: and Amy has the same exact handmade blanket that she

391
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 1: made Matt and Ryan also worked for a construction company

392
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: that is exactly the same as what Amy and I did.

393
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 2: Finally, it all clicked.

394
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: I just was like, Yeah, I think Amy is Matt.

395
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 2: Could this be true? Were the sisters talking to Amy

396
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 2: the entire time? Could Amy have invented not one, but

397
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 2: two fake boyfriends. Mackenzie needed proof.

398
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 1: Now Mackenzie is a detective and I am all over this.

399
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: Mackenzie knew that Ryan would often send Lee photos of

400
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: the construction sites he worked at.

401
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: I ended up messaging Lee and I said, if he

402
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: sends you any photos of job sites at, please send

403
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: them to me.

404
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: Ryan worked in construction all the way across the country

405
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: in eastern Canada. If he was really who he said

406
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: he was, Mackenzie should have no way of recognizing the sites.

407
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 2: But if it was really Amy, this could be Mackenzie's

408
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: chance to catch her in a lie. And finally she

409
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: got a clue. Lee forwarded a photo Ryan had sent her.

410
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: He said it was from one of his.

411
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: Work sites, and it's this picture of this really really

412
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: high end bar of a really really nice house. The

413
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,360
Speaker 1: light pictures super unique. You'll never see it in any

414
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: other type of house. I textedly and I said, oh,

415
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: did Ryan send you this today? And she goes, oh, yeah,

416
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: he just sent it to me. He said he wants

417
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: to put that in our house. He's going to build

418
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: it for me. And so what I do is I

419
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: take that photo. And there's one person that I work

420
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: with and I told my suspicions of and so I

421
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: emailed it to her and I said, you're working with

422
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: Amy today? Is this the site you're at? And my

423
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 1: coworker sends me back, I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I saw

424
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: Amy sit down take a photo of that light fixture

425
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: and talk about how much she liked it and how

426
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: she wants it in her future house.

427
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: One day, McKenzie suspected her friend Amy might be catfishing

428
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: both her and her sister Lee. One day, her sister's

429
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: boyfriend sent her a photo of a light fixture and

430
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: said he wanted it to be in their future house.

431
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: One day, McKenzie texted her coworker who was working on

432
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 2: site with Amy, and asked if the photo looked familiar, and.

433
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: My coworker sends me back, I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I

434
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: saw Amy sit down, take a photo of that light

435
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 1: fixture and talk about how much she liked it and

436
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: how she wants it in her future house.

437
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: One day, Mackenzie was mad.

438
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying,

439
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way.

440
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: She grabs her phone and texted Amy.

441
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,719
Speaker 1: I said, I can't believe you could watch my sister

442
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: all into this deep depression for two years, lose all

443
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: of her friends.

444
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 2: Amy responded right away.

445
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: What she replies back is where are you right now?

446
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: I'm coming to see you. I'm like, oh no, no, but

447
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to see you.

448
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: Next, Mackenzie called her sister. She had to break the

449
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: news that her boyfriend, who she had been in love

450
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: with for years, was actually their friend Amy hiding behind

451
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: a screen.

452
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: I called Lee right away and I told her. And

453
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: when we got home and I was telling my parents,

454
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: Lee was basically just sitting on the couch, not really

455
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: having a reaction. And she's like, no, I'm talking. I'm

456
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: talking with Ryan. He's real. Maybe Matt's her, but Ryan's real.

457
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: Mackenzie was stunned. She was not prepared for this reaction.

458
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: And I'm like, Lee, what are you talking about? It's

459
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: all here, it does you can't have Matt without the

460
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: other that like, what do you mean? I was so

461
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: mad because I'm giving you the reasoning of why we

462
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: haven't seen these people.

463
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: Finally, they had answers, but Lee didn't want to hear them.

464
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: Nobody could say anything to her. She'd be like, no,

465
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: that's just not true because she was so infatuated in

466
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 1: love with this man. They've talked about their wedding, they

467
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: have their names of their kids picked out.

468
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: Lee felt so far away. Nothing Mackenzie said seemed to

469
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: reach her. She was used to sharing everything with her

470
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: older sister. Lee was the only person who understood every

471
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: inch of her world, but in that moment, it felt

472
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: like they were on different planets, which.

473
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: Kind of began the deterioration of our friendship me and

474
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: my sister. Was how angry I was and how she

475
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: continued to believe that this individual was a real person.

476
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: Mackenzie knew that in order for her sister. To come

477
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: to terms with the truth, Lee would need to hear

478
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: it from me herself, so they decided to confront Amy

479
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: at her home.

480
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: Amy wouldn't come out of the house. We met with

481
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: her mom, and her mom had no idea who Matt

482
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: Ryan are, even though she said that Matt Ryan know

483
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: her mom and all this stuff. Amy finally came out

484
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: after half an hour and said that Matt isn't real.

485
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: Matt is my friend Sam, but Ryan is real. Looks

486
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: Lee straightly. I swear to you he is real. I've

487
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: touched him.

488
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: Mackenzie was fuming. Amy had spent years tricking her and

489
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: her sister into falling in love with guys that didn't exist.

490
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: She had controlled their lives, manipulated their emotions, cause Lee's

491
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: health to deteriorate, and now when they had proof of

492
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: her betrayal, she was still standing in front of them

493
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: and denying it.

494
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: I looked at Amy and I said, so, your friend

495
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: Sam started talking to me as a joke and she

496
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: said yeah. I said, and you knew he was talking

497
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: to me as a joke and she said yes, And

498
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, and you knew I was going through depression

499
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: and getting diagnosed with anxiety. And she said yes, And

500
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: I said, and you thought that would be funny? And

501
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: she said, well, I didn't know you. And I said

502
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: I even if I didn't know you, I wouldn't allow

503
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: someone to do that to you.

504
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: Mackenzie gave Amy one last chance to tell the full truth.

505
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: I asked her, I want you to look me in

506
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: the eye and tell me that Ryan is real. And

507
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: Amy looked me in the eye and said yes. And

508
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: that day I basically walked out of her house and.

509
00:29:54,080 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: I said to Lee that if she ever admits us

510
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: one day, she had her chance to tell us, like, she's.

511
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: In love with you, Lee. And Lee's like, you know, Mackenzie,

512
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: if he told you Matt isn't real at somebody else,

513
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: So just get over it. No, Ryan's real.

514
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: Lee's response was devastating.

515
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: I found out months later, six months later that she

516
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: was still talking with Ryan after she told me she wasn't.

517
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: And I just want to pick her up and shake her.

518
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 1: I'm like, how can you not see this?

519
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: Mackenzie and her parents went to the police, hoping that

520
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 2: they could do something to stop Amy.

521
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: We saw an officer and basically it was just are

522
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: they using like SIN numbers, which is social insurance numbers.

523
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: It's like no, it's like, well, they're not technically feeling

524
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: an identity, they're just using their photos, so it's not

525
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: a crime. And my parents were just like, well, she's

526
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: going to keep doing this. She's obviously going to keep

527
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: talking to people and hurting people's lives and you know,

528
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: and they're like, all we can say is like, don't

529
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: add people you don't know, and don't talk to them.

530
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: Shortly after that, Lee moved to Toronto.

531
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: Basically she ran away.

532
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: To this day, Lee's never admitted that Ryan wasn't real.

533
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: In reality, Lee fell in love. You want to choose

534
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: to believe that the people that you end up loving

535
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: are good, and choosing to believe it is easier than

536
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: accepting the fact that you've been talking to somebody who

537
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: is not real for the past three years, who you've

538
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: fallen in love with, who's actually a woman, who you

539
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: may or may not have sent pictures and other text messages.

540
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: What was especially disturbing was that the betrayal wasn't committed

541
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 2: at random or by a stream. The person that did

542
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: this was Mackenzie's best friend.

543
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: This was somebody who was in my house every single day,

544
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: somebody who I told all my secrets about, you know,

545
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: like I told her how I felt with men and

546
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: my insecurities and I had intimacy issues with men, and

547
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: I was afraid of whatever, and so she knows all this.

548
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: Mackenzie felt so alone. The only person that could possibly

549
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: understand what she was going through was refusing to talk

550
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: about it.

551
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: Trying to talk with my sister. I wanted to talk

552
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: about it, and she wanted to put it in a

553
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: pretty box and put it in the closet. I'm your

554
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: little sister. We're supposed to be best friends. You're supposed

555
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: to help me, You're supposed to help each other, and

556
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: instead you ran away and you chose to not talk

557
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: about it.

558
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: Amy caused long lasting damage to Lee and the sister's friendship.

559
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: You watch the person who idolized so much, and after

560
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: everything kind of happened, it was she just wasn't Lee anymore.

561
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: I was mad at her for a very long time.

562
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: Now we're better, obviously, but we're just not the same.

563
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: We're just our friendship. That relationship hasn't been the same

564
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: since everything happened.

565
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: Mackenzie reached out for support and started going to therapy.

566
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 1: I needed that help because I was angry. I was

567
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: trying to desensitize myself from this story and put together

568
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: what the hell just happened.

569
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: Looking back now, Mackenzie can see why Amy's catfishing was

570
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: so convincing. She had created two characters, Matt and Ryan,

571
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: who were always confirming each other's stories. If one of

572
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: them said they were hiking, the girls would get sent

573
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: photos of Matt and Ryan together on a hike, just

574
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: like said. There was no reason to doubt it because

575
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: the idea of creating a scheme with multiple fake people

576
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: seemed so far fetched.

577
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: Once Matt was brought into it, it made it seem

578
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: more real. That's too many people who, you know what

579
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: I mean. I don't know how to explain that.

580
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: Mackenzie never found out who the guys and the photos were,

581
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 2: but she suspects that they were real cousins or even

582
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: brothers who had public social media profiles, and Amy must

583
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: have been stealing their pictures without their knowledge.

584
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: I still have photos of them. I've reversed. I whige

585
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: searched all of them, and I can't find anything.

586
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 2: Amy introduced these characters at a time when both Lee

587
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: and Mackenzie really needed someone to talk to.

588
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: Matt Ryan started talking to both of us in a

589
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: very vulnerable time. Lee is very heartbroken from her previous

590
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,439
Speaker 1: relationship being cheated on. I'm in kind of the same boat,

591
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: but also I'm going through depression and anxiety and I

592
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: obviously don't know how to wrap my head around that.

593
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 2: But this story doesn't end here, because ten years later,

594
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: the sisters both found ways move forward and heal. Lee

595
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: eventually built the life she'd always dreamed of.

596
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: Lee's doing great. She meets a guy. She has two

597
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: little kids now, little boy and a little girl, and

598
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: they are absolutely adorable and I love them so very much.

599
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: She's thriving as a mom, and her husband is one

600
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: of my favorite people of all time. He's hilarious.

601
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: And Mackenzie build a life she genuinely loved too. It

602
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: started when she realized she liked girls.

603
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: It was like, yeah, okay, I've never actually kissed a

604
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: girl before kissed her and then I remember being like,

605
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: uh oh, that's what it's supposed to feel like.

606
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: She finally fell authentically herself.

607
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: It was the opening of Okay, I can be me now.

608
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: I had my first girlfriend, fell in love. Then we

609
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: fast forward to twenty twenty three. I'm out living my

610
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: best life and my friend from back When Everything Happens

611
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: sends me a DM on Instagram.

612
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: Mackenzie was surprised to hear from her. She opened the message.

613
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: Just basically saying, hey, you know, I know we don't

614
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: talk anymore, but I watched all your pictures and your

615
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: videos and I'm just so proud of you. You look

616
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: so happy. And I just said, oh, that's great. Hope

617
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: you're doing well, and she goes, I actually messaged you

618
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: because I got a message from Amy. A couple weeks ago.

619
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: Amy had reached out to Mackenzie's friend with a voice

620
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 2: memo confession. Mackenzie's friend send her the file and.

621
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: I play it and I hear Amy's voice and she

622
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: says it was me. It was always me. I did it.

623
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and then she says, I was struggling with

624
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: internalized homophobia and that's why I did the things I did.

625
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: I just was like, are you joking.

626
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: Internalized homophobia is when society's homophobia causes a queer person

627
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: to feel shame, guilt, or even self hatred about their

628
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: own identity. Amy was essentially saying that she had created

629
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: fake straight relationships with the sisters because she didn't feel

630
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 2: like she could come out as gay and be herself.

631
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: At the time, Mackenzie knew how harmful internalized homophobia could

632
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: be because she experienced it herself for years, but it

633
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: wasn't an excuse to catfish and harm people.

634
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: You're giving yourself an out to explain the shitty things

635
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: you did. I'm not going to my friend's house pretending

636
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: to be other people. I'm not manipulating other people into,

637
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: you know, doing X, Y and Z. I'm not gaslighting

638
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: people into talking to these people that aren't real. I'm

639
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: not sleeping over at my friend's house trying to cuddle

640
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: them in the night while they're talking to this big

641
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: person that's actually me. No, I barely have a friendship

642
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: with my sister, and it's all because of what she

643
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: decided to do for three years.

644
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: Amy's apology didn't feel genuine.

645
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: She did this because she wanted to. She did this

646
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: because she likes to manipulate. She did this because she

647
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: likes the control. She took advantage of young girls that

648
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: had just broken up with their significant others that were

649
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: vulnerable and prayed upon them. We've all moved on and

650
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: that whole apology. You're doing it to see if you

651
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: can still affect our lives. You want to see if

652
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: you still have that hold.

653
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: In the end, Amy has to live with what she did,

654
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: but she doesn't have power over Mackenzie and Lee anymore.

655
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: Mackenzie has moved on. She processed Amy's betrayal, but she

656
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: didn't let it paralyze her. She hasn't stopped trusting people.

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00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: When I love, I love with all of me. I

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00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 1: don't hold back. I don't hide the fact that I

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00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: am an emotional person. I'm a great friend. I think

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00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: I'm a great sister. I think you know. I just

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00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: love people, good people.

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00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: We end every weekly episode with the same question, why

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00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 2: do you want to share your story?

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00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: I chose to write in because everybody's on socially, Yeah,

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00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: everybody has a phone. Betrayal can be on so many

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00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: different levels, and I want people to know that regardless

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00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: of the betrayal you go through. I feel like if

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00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: you're willing to do therapy and you're willing to look

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00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: at yourself in a deeper level, it can make you

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00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: a better person and funnier because you have more trauma.

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00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.

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00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: There's this feeling that mums are good no matter what,

673
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: mums are good, and even if they do the wrong thing,

674
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: it's because they love you so much.

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00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: If you need to accept the lie to live, then

676
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: you accept the lie right. If you would like to

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00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell

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00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: us your betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail

679
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or

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00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. You can also

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00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: connect with me on Instagram at It's Andrea Gunning. To

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00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the

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00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com.

684
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: We're grateful for your support. One way to show support

685
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts, and

686
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews

687
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: go a long way. A big thank you to all

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00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,

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00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

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00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason.

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00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 2: Hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced

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00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.

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00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali

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00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing on this episode by

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00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: Dean Welsh, mixing and mastering by Dape Saya. Additional audio

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00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bain's

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00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: music library provided by Mybe Music and For more podcasts

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00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: you get your podcasts,