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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I'm Matt Miller and

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Speaker 1: I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is hot Pursuit.

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Speaker 2: Today. We have a really special guest that I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to talk to. It Normally, Hannah, you know, I'm in

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Speaker 2: New York, Hannah's in Los Angeles, and usually Mark German

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Speaker 2: is there with you. That's right, so he was. He's

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Speaker 2: in New York for I don't know, meetings, networking, whatever.

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Speaker 2: But also Apple has introduced this new phone. I think

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Speaker 2: it's called the sixteen E. I don't really keep up

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Speaker 2: with the tech stuff too much unless I'm listening to Mark,

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Speaker 2: because he knows all of the inside information.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible. Mark German the chief tech correspondent, I think

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Speaker 1: his title is. I mean, he basically just reports on

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Speaker 1: Apple and Meta, but he is a fount of knowledge.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of unbelievable. And he I actually ahead of

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Speaker 1: this conversation. Re read this story that he wrote for

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Speaker 1: Business Week back in March of last year about how

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Speaker 1: Apple spent a billion dollars into the car that it

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Speaker 1: never built. Fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very cool. Are big take stories. It's a I

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Speaker 2: guess that's a brand that Bloomberg has so on the terminal,

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Speaker 2: you can type NI Big Take, but you can also

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Speaker 2: just search for the Bloomberg Big Take online. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: so excited to have him on the program. I also

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Speaker 2: want to talk a little bit about a vehicle I'm driving.

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Speaker 2: You know, we get these press vehicles and usually they're

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Speaker 2: the most exciting and expensive and coolest vehicles out there,

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Speaker 2: so that when I get like a normal everyday car,

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Speaker 2: I don't really think much of it. But Nissan has

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Speaker 2: given me a Frontier. It's there. You know, they're smaller

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Speaker 2: truck in America. I guess the mid sized truck.

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Speaker 1: I love a small truck, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't have thought anything of it, except for

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Speaker 2: the one they gave me was an Orange, and I'm

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Speaker 2: a sucker for Orange. They got your number, and then

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Speaker 2: so I started looking a little bit more closely. It's

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Speaker 2: the Pro four X version, which is like their version

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Speaker 2: of TRD right, and it has really cool wheels and

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Speaker 2: some sweet little accents in terms of design elements. And

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Speaker 2: so I get in and I start driving it, and

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Speaker 2: I remember like there's a lot of fun to be

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Speaker 2: had in driving sort of inexpensive Jeeps, which is essentially

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Speaker 2: what it is, right, it's the same feel as driving

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Speaker 2: a Wrangler or a Bronco. I know there's a bit

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Speaker 2: of a difference between those two, but it's like right

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Speaker 2: in the middle in terms of driveability. It's got a

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Speaker 2: three point eight liter V six. It's kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not cutting edge tech in terms of the motor,

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Speaker 2: but it's well over three hundred horsepower. It's peppy enough,

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Speaker 2: and it's just like fun to drive one of these

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Speaker 2: vehicles and think that I wouldn't have to spend like

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars on it.

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Speaker 1: Is this is this more of a work truck, more

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Speaker 1: like a like a go out in the wilderness truck.

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Speaker 2: You know, well this is the go out in the

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Speaker 2: wilderness version of it, right. I'm sure that most people

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Speaker 2: who get it are still going to be going to Starbucks, Like.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to the job site necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Well you could, you could camp. And that's the other

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Speaker 2: thing I realized about this this vehicle, Like I love

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Speaker 2: the jeepish power train and handling and you know, the

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Speaker 2: suspension and for an urban jungle like the New York

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Speaker 2: metropolitan area, you kind of need that, right because everything

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Speaker 2: else gets beat to hell. But when I look at

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Speaker 2: these little trucks, you know, you see the Canyon or

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Speaker 2: the Colorado or you know, the Ranger, I always think

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Speaker 2: it's like an al Camino, Like it's just they they

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Speaker 2: just made a car and put an open bed in it,

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Speaker 2: but actually still a body on frame truck. And that

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Speaker 2: ruggedness I think is so cool for the I think

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Speaker 2: it starts at forty thousand dollars for the price tag,

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Speaker 2: you know, and today's day and age, that's not an

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Speaker 2: incredibly high price. And that is for this sort of

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Speaker 2: top of the line Apex Predator version of the Nissan Frontier.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to give a shout out to

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Speaker 2: those and say there are still affordable vehicles out there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have to say, I mean I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at a photo right now. It's not tiny. It's got

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Speaker 1: four doors. It's got a double cab, right, I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: the one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 1: It's a true like a tiny. It's not tiny tiny.

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Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about it being a small truck.

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Speaker 2: But right, I mean, you don't want too many people

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Speaker 2: of my height in it. You know, I'm six three,

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Speaker 2: I'm all legs, so I'm you know, the seats all

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Speaker 2: the way back for me to drive, and I'm still

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I'd want to spend too much

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Speaker 2: time in it.

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Speaker 1: But got it.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, for more regular sized or smaller humans, it's

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Speaker 2: a fantastic truck. And it is a truck like you know, I,

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Speaker 2: I guess I tend to be biased against things that

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Speaker 2: are smaller than an F one fifty and the fact

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Speaker 2: is so, for example, Ford has been offering me the

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Speaker 2: Ranger Raptor to try out for months and I've just

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Speaker 2: not taken him up on it because I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: why I want the F one fifty Raptor. But this

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Speaker 2: has opened my eyes to a smaller truck experience and

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Speaker 2: now I'm really excited to try a few more of them.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I cool. I really, I mean I learned

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Speaker 1: to drive stick on a Ford truck. I do have

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Speaker 1: a soft spot for truck, so I'm all for it.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: What have you been driving recently? I saw a little

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Speaker 2: jellybean sized or shaped in the medhicle. Yeah, yes, and

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about it a little bit because

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Speaker 2: I know Mark German likes it as well. But to me,

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Speaker 2: the design is just.

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Speaker 1: You know, the design isn't really. I mean, we've seen

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Speaker 1: we've seen the Macon in the market for years now,

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Speaker 1: so the design itself isn't new.

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Speaker 2: I loved the previous look of the Macan I thought

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Speaker 2: when I first saw it, I think it was in

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen. It was right around the time they came

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Speaker 2: out the nine to eleven R and I was at

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Speaker 2: I guess, I guess an auto show, maybe Detroit and

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Speaker 2: or maybe La and I thought, cool, it's like a

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Speaker 2: lifted four door nine to eleven, Like that's awesome, But

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Speaker 2: this thing looks even more jelly beanie to me. It's

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Speaker 2: like the Tesla Model X and every other kind of

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Speaker 2: you still call them an suv. I guess you still

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Speaker 2: called an ash.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think you could. It's a compact suv,

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Speaker 1: you know what. I actually I wasn't bothered by the design.

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Speaker 1: I thought it looked cool. It's if you park it

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Speaker 1: next to EV's evsuvs from like Audi, for instance, it

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Speaker 1: certainly does look more dynamic. You know, it really looks,

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Speaker 1: especially the front where you have the stack of lights

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Speaker 1: on either side and just sort of a wall in

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Speaker 1: front of it. I don't want to say it looks

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Speaker 1: like the front of the earth's the Lamborghini suv. But

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Speaker 1: there it could be reminiscent.

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Speaker 2: It's smaller, right, it's oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's smaller, but you know, I don't There's a little

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Speaker 1: spoiler on the back, so you can have a jellybean

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Speaker 1: with a spoiler, Matt if you want. You know, to me,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't so markedly different than the many other Macons

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Speaker 1: that are on the road. Obviously, this is the best

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Speaker 1: selling Portia vehicle in the US and the second best

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Speaker 1: in the world, So it to me, it wasn't radically

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Speaker 1: different than the mccon we've already seen.

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Speaker 2: All Right, Well, I think, but I'm sure you don't

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Speaker 2: like it. Well, I just don't love the design. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure it drives great and great for an EV I

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Speaker 2: wonder does it have decent range? Yeah? It is charging quick.

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Speaker 1: You know. The variant that I drove is the Macon

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Speaker 1: turbo Electric.

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Speaker 2: Okay, hang on a second, I already have a problem.

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Speaker 2: I already have a problem. Where's the turbo going.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a marketing label at this point, and you

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Speaker 1: know it has been because we saw it in the

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Speaker 1: Taycan as well. So you know, turbo denotes the highest

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Speaker 1: variant at portion, it doesn't actually mean there's a turbo

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Speaker 1: charger under the hood. Silly.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know they were going to stick with that.

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Speaker 1: I know they're pulling up.

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Speaker 2: I knew they did it with the Taykon, but I

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Speaker 2: thought enough people would have made fun of the executives.

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Speaker 2: You know, Oliver Bloomag goes to a dinner party and

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Speaker 2: someone's like, hey, dude, really the turbo Are you serious

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Speaker 2: that they would have changed their minds?

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Speaker 1: But no, they're doubling down. They're doubling down. So the

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Speaker 1: taycn sorry, the Macan Turbot Electric is there are four variants.

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Speaker 1: It's the highest of the four. It starts at about

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Speaker 1: one hundred and five thousand dollars. To answer your question,

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Speaker 1: it has two hundred eight.

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Speaker 2: And actually starts at one hundred and five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: It starts at the turbine.

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Speaker 1: That's the higher. Yeah, the higher variant. I think the

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Speaker 1: the entry level starts at about seventy five thousand, So

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Speaker 1: there's a range there. There's a range there. The variant

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Speaker 1: that I drove got up to about one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars. That's adding things like twenty two inch

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Speaker 1: wheels with carbon fib carbon fiber arrow blades and things

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Speaker 1: like that. Some of the lesser variants have a lot

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Speaker 1: more range, about three hundred and ten miles or so.

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Speaker 1: This version that I drove has more power six hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty horse power equivalent, but it has a little

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Speaker 1: bit less range two hundred and eighty eight miles of range.

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Speaker 1: I drove it up to Newcombs. I really flogged it.

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Speaker 1: I get, as we've discussed, I get major range anxiety.

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Speaker 1: I drove it for four days all over the city,

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Speaker 1: never actually got it under thirty percent of a charge left.

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Speaker 1: So to me, it was incredibly usable. If I had it,

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Speaker 1: I it would be the type of thing I'm just

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Speaker 1: charging it on the weekend at my house. Didn't seem

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Speaker 1: like a big deal because the charging network in LA

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Speaker 1: is not I don't even think it's great in LA.

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Speaker 1: You may fight me on that, but no, I have problems.

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Speaker 2: I haven't ever really spent any time in LA, and

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Speaker 2: so I also don't know what Newcombs is. What's Newcomb's.

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Speaker 1: Newcomb's Ranch is a used to be a restaurant. It's

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Speaker 1: up Angeleau's Crest. It's twenty six miles up highway to

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Speaker 1: up Angeleau's Crest, which is the highway through the mountains

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Speaker 1: leaving Los Angeles. It take You can go up there

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Speaker 1: to like Lake Arrowhead and Big Bear, and you can

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Speaker 1: get into some snow. Even Newcomb's Ranch is used to

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Speaker 1: be a restaurant. It's been abandoned for years. It's it's

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Speaker 1: been for sale for years, and I remember I actually

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Speaker 1: had Thanksgiving Thanksgiving meal there once. It's really nice. It's

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Speaker 1: basically a destination now for people to just drive up

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Speaker 1: to Newcomb's because it's a great drive and it's there's

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Speaker 1: a big parking lot there can park up and talk

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Speaker 1: with your car buddies. But you know, everyone has this

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Speaker 1: dream about new Comes. You know, I want to buy

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Speaker 1: it and get the restaurant back working. And the problem

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Speaker 1: with new Comes is there's one road in and one

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Speaker 1: road out, and that road is subject to rock slides

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Speaker 1: and mud slides and lots of snow, and that road

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Speaker 1: is often closed arbitrarily by the powers that be. So

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to get supplies and staff to your

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Speaker 1: restaurant up the road twenty six miles, it's difficult and unpredictable.

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Speaker 1: So in my opinion that's the real challenge of newcomes.

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Speaker 2: But well, it looks cool, and I hope you know

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Speaker 2: how lucky you are living in a place like that.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's get to our interview with Mark German,

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Speaker 2: because it's super fascinating and I think connected to a

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Speaker 2: lot of these topics. Yeah, and then we'll touch base again.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty excited to talk to you because I had

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Speaker 2: you on my TV show. You were saying some pretty

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Speaker 2: interesting stuff about Apple that you know, everyone knows that

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Speaker 2: they worked on a car and then canceled it. But

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Speaker 2: you said you've actually seen I guess a prototype, and

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Speaker 2: you think canceling it was a horrible strategic decision. Tell

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Speaker 2: us about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think over the long term, canceling work on

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Speaker 3: the self driving car was a terrible strategic decision for Apple.

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Speaker 3: Everything I saw pointed to an innovative sort of living

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Speaker 3: room on wheels, a innovative autonomous experience on the road,

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Speaker 3: so much more than a car, right, something where you

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Speaker 3: can lay back and chill and FaceTime and watch TV.

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Speaker 3: They had features at this time during development where you

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Speaker 3: could hear the outdoors through special microphones and speakers in

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Speaker 3: the car to make you feel like you were outdoors.

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Speaker 3: They had a window list designed. The idea was you

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Speaker 3: could just plug in where you're going and it would

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Speaker 3: take you there, all sorts of different safety mechanisms. They

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Speaker 3: even had this idea with no steering wheel, you could

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Speaker 3: use your iPhone app as a control roller for the car.

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Speaker 3: And there was even a physical controller, almost like a

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Speaker 3: PlayStation or Xbox controller where you can take over. There

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Speaker 3: was a call button into an Apple command center where

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Speaker 3: they had rooms with steering wheels and they could take

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Speaker 3: over manually to drive the car for you. So all

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Speaker 3: sorts of just pretty amazing technology and designs that they

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Speaker 3: worked on. The design looked absolutely phenomenal. It was like

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Speaker 3: a blend of a zoos and a canoe and a

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Speaker 3: BMW I three, but quite a bit bigger. It could

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Speaker 3: fit four to six people basically lounging right a moving

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Speaker 3: autonomous lounge on wheels, and I think it would have

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Speaker 3: been remarkable and totally upended the industry. But Apple was

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Speaker 3: not getting where it needed to get fast enough to

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Speaker 3: an autonomous first environment, and by the time they realized

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Speaker 3: they needed to pull the plug on full autonomy, they

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Speaker 3: had invested so much money billions tens of billions, and

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Speaker 3: it was too much, and they needed to start investing

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Speaker 3: that money elsewhere into generative AI for phones and tablets

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Speaker 3: and computers and the like. But I think over the

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Speaker 3: long term strategic mistake. At some point, I think they're

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Speaker 3: gonna need to come back to it. But you spent

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Speaker 3: ten years building up this car division, hiring all the

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Speaker 3: car people, then you fired them all. You can't really

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Speaker 3: reboot it that easily. It's gonna have to take probably

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Speaker 3: a new CEO, new management team, and probably a decade

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Speaker 3: in change in between. But I think an Apple car

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Speaker 3: would have been revolutionary. And once Apple comes to a market,

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Speaker 3: not only do they vanquish the market, but it starts

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Speaker 3: heightening the competition and trying to get everyone else to

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Speaker 3: build better products as well. So I think it would

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Speaker 3: have been a great thing for the industry. And as

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Speaker 3: someone who's into cars and into technology, I'm pretty disappointed.

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Speaker 1: Mark. I'm so curious about this, And I reread your

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Speaker 1: Big Take story that you wrote about this in March

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Speaker 1: of last year, and I really recommend our listeners to

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Speaker 1: go read it. Will include the link on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just curious on a philosophical level, how you

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Speaker 1: really see this failed effort, because it seemed to me

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Speaker 1: like a combination of perhap apps arrogance. There was one

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Speaker 1: point where you said, you know, Apple kind of thought

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Speaker 1: they were going to come in and vanquish. They were

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Speaker 1: going to come in as like the latest you know,

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Speaker 1: entry into a long established industry and vanquish everyone else.

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Speaker 1: So there's that element, but also there's an element that

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Speaker 1: cars are really hard to make. It's like I say

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Speaker 1: it all the time, it's a simple thing, but you know,

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Speaker 1: we've seen countless people think, hey, boys, let's go build

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Speaker 1: a car. Like like you say in your piece, it

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Speaker 1: seems like a good idea, and everyone gets excited and

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Speaker 1: then you know, a year and a billion dollars later,

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Speaker 1: you realize it's a really hard thing to do. So

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know how much of this failure was

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Speaker 1: due to arrogance, Was due to the fact that this

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Speaker 1: is just a very hard thing, or should they have

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Speaker 1: not gone for full level five autonomous driving and maybe

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Speaker 1: set a goal a little bit more attainable. What's your thought, Hannah?

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Speaker 3: It was the arrogance to think that they could literally

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Speaker 3: reinvent the wheel by going full autonomy at this state

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Speaker 3: with the current requirements of the technology. It was the

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Speaker 3: hubrist to believe that Apple could do anything it sets

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Speaker 3: its mind to. But no, this is a problem that

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Speaker 3: isn't solvable right now at a level of quality, safety,

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Speaker 3: and fit and finish that a company as big as

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Speaker 3: Apple would require, right, think of all the safety concerns

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Speaker 3: with full autonomy. So that hubris is what really destroyed

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Speaker 3: the project. From day one. They were unwilling to move

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Speaker 3: off of that standpoint. You know, there were some people

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Speaker 3: on Apple's management team that said, why don't we just

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Speaker 3: release a better Tesla. Why don't we bring something that

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Speaker 3: looks like the coolest car on the road, has amazing

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Speaker 3: battery electronics and a manufacturing process, has tight integration with

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Speaker 3: the Apple ecosystem, has the best car interior you've ever seen,

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Speaker 3: has the best infotainment system you've ever seen. We can

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Speaker 3: put limited autonomy features like Tesla did several years ago.

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Speaker 3: Over time, maybe upgrade them. Why not just take Keesla

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Speaker 3: Tesla head on. Other people are like, well, we're Apple,

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Speaker 3: we have to do things completely different. We invented the iPhone, right,

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Speaker 3: and I think the arrogance in that company because of

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Speaker 3: the success of the iPhone for the last two decades

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Speaker 3: led them down the wrong path. Apple can't do anything

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Speaker 3: it sets its mind to, very clearly. I think if

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Speaker 3: Apple released a true Tesla competitor, this conversation would be

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Speaker 3: completely different. I think a real competitor Tesla focusing on

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Speaker 3: design compatibility with the Apple ecosystem, infotainment, limited autonomy features

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Speaker 3: that could get better over time, I think it would

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Speaker 3: have been a killer product, and they should quite frankly,

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Speaker 3: be pretty upset with themselves that they allowed this project

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Speaker 3: to go in the entirely wrong direction from the very beginning.

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Speaker 2: Would they be partnered up with someone I remember reports that,

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Speaker 2: for example, they could work with Kia. I also know

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Speaker 2: from talking to you about it that they have partnered

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Speaker 2: up in other areas like CarPlay too. I want to

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Speaker 2: get to in a little bit with Porsche, which is, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, top of the industry in terms of fit

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Speaker 2: and finish, design, build quality, that.

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Speaker 1: Sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: So would they have partnered up with somebody else or

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Speaker 2: would they have tried to do it in house?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think given Apple's ability to partner with manufacturing companies.

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Speaker 3: There's Magna that does car manufacturing. They're based in Canada,

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Speaker 3: there are manufacturers in Asia like fox Conn who are

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Speaker 3: working on EV platforms and such. I think they could

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Speaker 3: have partnered with them pretty easily. One failed partnership was

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Speaker 3: with Tesla, right Elon Musk. That Yeah, Elon Musk basically

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Speaker 3: offered up the company to Tim Cook almost a decade ago.

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Speaker 3: He said, no, this was when it was worth about

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Speaker 3: sixty billion on the market cap. Wouldn't have really cost

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Speaker 3: Apple much if you're incorporating stock and everything like that,

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Speaker 3: compared to what they've what they have on hand, or

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Speaker 3: what they had on hand at the time, So that

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Speaker 3: was a.

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Speaker 2: Big back then they had over one hundred and twenty billion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they had way more. I mean now they're trying

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Speaker 3: to get to cash neutral, but back then they had

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Speaker 3: several hundred billion dollars in cash, right upwards of two

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Speaker 3: hundred three hundred billion in cash. They could have easily

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Speaker 3: bought Tesla. They could have turned Tesla into the machine

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Speaker 3: it is today, even quicker than Elon Musk was able

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Speaker 3: to given all their partnerships and experience. So you know,

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Speaker 3: I think that was a huge mistake by Tim Cook

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Speaker 3: to not go down that Tesla path. I think there

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Speaker 3: were some fears of what Elon Musk would have done

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Speaker 3: to a larger Apple, which I don't think that's entirely unfounded,

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Speaker 3: but I think that the benefits of such a partnership

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Speaker 3: our an acquisition would have outweighed the risks in terms

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Speaker 3: of other partnerships. Yeah, they talked to Kia, they talked

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Speaker 3: to Ferrari, they talked to Volkswagen, they talked to Mercedes BMW.

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Speaker 3: In time and time again, they were not able to

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Speaker 3: reach any consensus about a true partnership who would do what.

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Speaker 3: They got pretty far down the road on a partnership

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Speaker 3: with one company, one of the big German automakers, and

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Speaker 3: they were really excited about how well the partnership was doing,

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Speaker 3: so they pulled the plug on it, thinking they don't

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Speaker 3: need them as a partner, we can go at Yes,

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Speaker 3: this was Mercedes, so they definitely had failures, leadership failure,

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Speaker 3: financial related failures all around. The former Apple CFO Luca Maistrie,

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Speaker 3: who came from the car business. He was a finance

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Speaker 3: executive at General Motors over in Europe. He pushed heavily

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Speaker 3: against the car project because he knew firsthand how bad

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Speaker 3: of a business it is in terms of the costs,

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Speaker 3: that go into it, But I think they were too

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Speaker 3: scared to do something rational, and they focused on pipe

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Speaker 3: dream levels of technology and essentially went nowhere.

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Speaker 1: You know, I know that. I think it was last

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Speaker 1: year I drove in a Mercedes BINZ that had Level

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Speaker 1: three autonomous driving capability. I drove, I rode slash drove

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Speaker 1: in that in LA Do you happen to know of

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Speaker 1: that system? That Level three system was developed during the

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Speaker 1: time that Mercedes and Apple were in their talks to

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Speaker 1: potentially work together. Is this something that probably resulted from

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Speaker 1: that sort of partnership.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't think so. In terms

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Speaker 3: of things that came out of the Apple Car project

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Speaker 3: that have hit the market at this point. The Apple

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Speaker 3: Vision pro started off within the Apple Car project. The

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Speaker 3: initial effort to build augmented reality and virtual reality products

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Speaker 3: at Apple wasn't a headset or glasses. It was actually

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Speaker 3: the windshield and dashboard in the Apple car. The idea was,

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Speaker 3: you are looking through this windshield in front of your car,

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Speaker 3: and there's a ton of widgets, your speedometer, everything in

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Speaker 3: an augmented reality fashion. That was too expensive to put

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Speaker 3: into the car, so they moved it into a headset

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Speaker 3: form factor, which obviously makes a ton more sense. The

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Speaker 3: other things is Apple's upcoming push into personal robotics. They're

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Speaker 3: working on some robotics devices. Don't forget. A self driven

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Speaker 3: car is essentially a robotics device. It's a robot on wheels,

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Speaker 3: and the same underlying autonomy and SLAM and three D

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Speaker 3: technologies to do a self driven car, the same tech

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Speaker 3: you would use in a robot that roams through your home,

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Speaker 3: And so that came out of that as well. And

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Speaker 3: then Apple's chip efforts they make these AI chips called

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Speaker 3: the neural Engine. The original engine was actually built to

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Speaker 3: process the AI for self driving autonomy on the car,

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Speaker 3: and now that's in every iPhone and iPad and Mac

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Speaker 3: that you buy today with the Apple in house processor.

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Speaker 3: So you know, not all is lost from that project

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Speaker 3: except a potentially new hundred billion dollar a year business

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Speaker 3: that they are in not desperate need of right now,

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Speaker 3: but will probably wish they had a.

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Speaker 2: Figure how long do you think it's going to be

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Speaker 2: until they try and reboot, until they realize they need to.

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Speaker 3: I think it's going to be five to fifteen years

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Speaker 3: before they try to get back in the car space.

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Speaker 3: But eventually they're going to have to. I mean Steve

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Speaker 3: Jobs and other executives at Apple at the time twenty

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Speaker 3: years ago. We're talking about more than twenty years ago. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about the desire to own the next stage

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Speaker 3: of technology after mobile. And you know, they have long

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Speaker 3: considered the car the ultimate mobile device. And so I

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Speaker 3: think what really gave them inspirations how much people loved

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Speaker 3: car Play, which I know we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Car Play. They launched in twenty fourteen. It was originally

433
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 3: introduced in twenty thirteen as iOS in the car. The

434
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 3: concept is very simple. You plug your phone into the

435
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 3: car and it basically creates a new interface in your

436
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 3: interfertainment system. That is an Apple designed interface where you

437
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 3: can do your texting, your Siri, your calls, messages, all

438
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: sorts of stuff, the third party apps, and they have

439
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 3: some pretty big ambitions for that.

440
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: I think the Ferrari the FF was one of the

441
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: first cars available with car Play.

442
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 1: That's right.

443
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 2: We're seeing it at the Detroit Auto Show and I thought, wow,

444
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: it's so cool. Ferrari working closely with Apple.

445
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 3: That's right. And Eddie q who's a senior vice president

446
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 3: Apple for Services one of steve jobs closest confidants, really

447
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 3: a disciple of his. He's on the Bord of Ferrari

448
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,719
Speaker 3: and so he's doing a lot of those partnerships. Car

449
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 3: Play ya, right. It launched in the Ferrari first back

450
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen, so ten years ago, eleven years ago

451
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: at this point. But their real ambition is to go deeper.

452
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 3: So right now, car Play is very much tied to

453
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 3: the Apple interface, applications I message calls, FaceTime audio, third

454
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 3: party apps, we chat, third party mapping apps, Apple maps Serie,

455
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 3: of course. But Apple's grander ambition is this project code

456
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 3: named Ironheart, and that's CarPlay two. This was announced back

457
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two, so three years ago. The idea

458
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 3: revamping CarPlay so it can control not only your Apple Interface,

459
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: your Apple apps and services and functions there, but the

460
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 3: functions in your car as well. What if CarPlay can

461
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 3: expand to control in view, your gauges, your electric your speedometer,

462
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 3: everything you would normally get in your instrument cluster, control

463
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: your climate in your car, control your seats, control your radio,

464
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: so the whole car system operated by your iPhone. Right,

465
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: So they introduce this in twenty twenty two. The idea

466
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 3: was to put the Apple interface in all the displays

467
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 3: in your car. Right, there's tons of cars. Now you

468
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 3: have a big digital display and a lot of cars

469
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 3: replacing the old terrestrial instrument gages. Right, it's never launched.

470
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: They've still been promising this thing. A couple of years ago.

471
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 3: They said their two partners at first would be Portia

472
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: and as did Martin. Those two cars haven't launched yet

473
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 3: with the new car Play, so it's anat why not?

474
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: What's the delay? What's the whole?

475
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: So for one, car Play works so well the current

476
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 3: iteration and is in so many cars. Everyone uses it

477
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 3: and loves it because it's so easy. You plug it

478
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: in seamless, Yes, you plug it in. It's seamless. It

479
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 3: works why Because it's a standardized Apple interface. You're getting

480
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 3: the same interface everywhere you go. The idea with car

481
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 3: Play too is that every car would have its own

482
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 3: bespoke interface, So the iPhone will be loaded up with

483
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 3: a different interface for every car. Ferrari would have its

484
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 3: own UI, Asden would have its own UI range over

485
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: it's on Ui Riva and its own UI. You name it. Right,

486
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 3: that's a lot of work. There are so many car

487
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,959
Speaker 3: models on the road. Right, every car manufacturer wants to

488
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 3: have a look just for it, and they need to

489
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: sit down with Apple to create a look just for it.

490
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: Because it's so tightly and deeply integrated into the deep

491
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: systems within the car, right, that requires a lot of

492
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: engineering time as well. It's not plug and play like

493
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: the CarPlay we know today. So from a user interface

494
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 3: design standpoint, you have a big blockade there. From an

495
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: engineering and car component standpoint, you have a big blockade there.

496
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 3: But I guess the biggest thing is that in this era,

497
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: companies simply don't trust Apple, and they shouldn't. They saw

498
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 3: Apple come in there and destroy the smartphone industry, the

499
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 3: music industry, basically every industry it is entered smart watches.

500
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: They don't want Apple to come in, steal their customer

501
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: and destroy their relationship with the people who own their cars.

502
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 3: There is massive risk of BA basically handing over the

503
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 3: keys right to your car business to Apple.

504
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: There's data concerns too, right.

505
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 3: There's probably data concerns as well, But I think the

506
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: bigger concern is that Apple comes in builds a new

507
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 3: relationship with your customer, not a car play interface taking

508
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: over your whole car, and then one day they come

509
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: back decide they want to build a car.

510
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: Wow.

511
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: I've loved using car play too for all these years.

512
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: I want the whole into and Apple experience. CarPlay is basically, yeah,

513
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 3: it's a trophan ur. It's basically an advertisement for Apple's

514
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: eventual car. And so if I'm a car manufacturer, why

515
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 3: would I want to give up my customer to Apple.

516
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: Why don't I go and try to build the best

517
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 3: operating system and services I can? And that's what we've

518
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 3: seen from GM.

519
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: Yep, exactly right. I mean, I mean, you know, for

520
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: so long, CarPlay had already dominated, it had become table stakes,

521
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: like if you make a luxury car, it has to

522
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: have CarPlay in it. But I've noticed recently, first of all,

523
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: if I get into a car that doesn't have wireless

524
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: car play, like ironically an Aston Martin or the new

525
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: portsche Carearite didn't have it, and it's just like something's missing.

526
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: But I recently got into a gmccra EV and I

527
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 2: noticed there is no car play at all because they're

528
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: trying to get away from it. They're trying to sort

529
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: of wean themselves off of the consumer addiction to this

530
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: Apple iOS.

531
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: Now, I don't believe what GM is doing is smart.

532
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: I think that they should allow car Play the OG

533
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: version of car Play, the original plug and play version.

534
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 3: I don't see the issue with that. Like you said,

535
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: that's table stakes for when consumers are buying a new

536
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: vehicle today. I agree that they should never in their

537
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: right mind adopt car Play too, because that's when you're

538
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: really handing the keys over of your customer to the

539
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 3: most powerful company in the world. There's no need to

540
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 3: do that, and as tightly integrated as CarPlay could potentially be,

541
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 3: I think there's a universe in which car makers can

542
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: make an even more bespoke interface for their customers. Right,

543
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: So I agree you don't want to support car Play two.

544
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: I'm with you. You don't want to support car Play one.

545
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 3: I think that is a mistake, and customers are telling

546
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 3: GM that, So we'll see what happens. You have to

547
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: build a better mousetrap if you're going to block what's

548
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: really known as the best one.

549
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: Mark. What is the sense at Apple of any customer

550
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: resistance to a car that is just completely screens with

551
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: no buttons and knobs? And I ask, because you know

552
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: when there are consumer feedback surveys, A lot of the

553
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: most annoying things that people would say is I don't

554
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: want to have to go through levels in an interface

555
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: in order to like adjust my seat or put my

556
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: wind down, just these simple tasks that a single button

557
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: would accomplish far simpler, Like Apple, of course, would just

558
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: go all pure screen all the time. Is there a

559
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: conversation there?

560
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 3: There would be a lot of screens. But I think

561
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: in some cases Apple has realized where buttons are important. Right,

562
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: It's funny they've added more buttons to the iPhone in

563
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: the last three years. They've added two physical buttons to

564
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: the iPhone. For the previous fifteen years of the iPhone history,

565
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: they've never added a button. Now they have your action button.

566
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: Now you have your camera button, the camera control interface

567
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: on the side of the phone.

568
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: So is that because people are saying I would like

569
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: to have that, I mean.

570
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: Is that well on the camera control button, I'm not

571
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 3: sure anyone who asked for that. I think that I

572
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 3: like it, but pretty much no one else agrees with

573
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 3: me on that one.

574
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: No, I like it.

575
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: Also, Okay, Matt likes it. But the action button, Okay, fine,

576
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 3: you replaced the mute swhich is something that could be

577
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: customizable for whatever. Nobody moves it off of the ringer

578
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: switch mat. Do you change your button?

579
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: And on the watch also, I don't need it.

580
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: There you go right, and so whatever. But I think

581
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: that shows that Apple realizes that there is a place

582
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: for tactile buttons, and I would yes. In a car, well,

583
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 3: first of all, the windows weren't gonna open anyways, so

584
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 3: let's let's scrap that one. You have the microphones to

585
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 3: feed in the outside audio instead. It's ridiculous Siri would

586
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: be the main control vehicle for the car anyways. But yeah,

587
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 3: in places where tactile switches, where those make sense, people

588
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 3: would would probably have those. Apple would want to implement it.

589
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: It's funny, you know, there are so many cars now

590
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: that have a touchcreen display for the AC stuff. I

591
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 3: don't like that. I would rather the physical switches for that.

592
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: In Apple's case, you would probably have it all touchscreens.

593
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: But that's neither here nor there. Because whatever this next

594
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: car project from Apple, it's hopefully going to come in

595
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: a time when Siri actually works properly and we'll be

596
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: able to really have finite control over the over the

597
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: overall system now. And it's to your point earlier about

598
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: people at Apple how they felt about this. I think

599
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 3: one of the big arguments inside Apple is that the

600
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: people making the decisions are people who love driving their

601
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: cars and getting behind the wheel. You know, Apple has

602
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 3: this ethos.

603
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: I'm surprised to hear that at tech company.

604
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, huge mistake to let your dated philosophies in your

605
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: own personal hobbies get in the middle of Apple's product pipeline.

606
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: I don't agree with that. The future is clearly autonomous.

607
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: You love driving behind the wheel, You can continue driving

608
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 3: behind the wheel, but there should be vehicles for everyone.

609
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 3: You can drive your Porsche or FERRAI arrasted Martin, but

610
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 3: also have the autonomous cars, just like on smart watches. Right,

611
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: there's plenty of Apple executives who are big Rolex Potect

612
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 3: Philly cardierap fans. Whatever. You have those for your your

613
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: wedding nights or you're going out nice, but you've got

614
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 3: your Apple watch for your nine to five, right, And

615
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: so I think that, you know, maybe it wasn't such

616
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 3: a big dynamic there, but definitely people at Apple love

617
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: driving their cars, and so it felt like, why would

618
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: we want to change the industry when we kind of

619
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 3: love how it works. We love our cars, right.

620
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: I'm curious to know what cars you love because you

621
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: are so steeped in the tech industry and you also

622
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: are a fan of vehicles. So are there anything any

623
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: cars out there that you think are particularly interesting? I mean,

624
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: obviously we all love a Porscha nine to eleven, and

625
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: we all would love a Ferrari. But is there anything

626
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: that you think is fascinating considering both of the worlds

627
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: that you stand in.

628
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 3: I'm an EV guy, maybe that's not surprising, and I'm

629
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: not an EV guy for the energy or climate benefits.

630
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: I mean, those are nice, but I love the acceleration

631
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: of EV's I think it's just amazing. I'm a tech

632
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 3: I'm a techie, so I like the battery architecture. I

633
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 3: like being able to charge at home. I like not

634
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 3: being able to fill up with the guts. I like

635
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 3: that it's super quiet. So I like those technical focused benefits.

636
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: I'm a huge fan of the of the Porsche Taken.

637
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of the new macn EV from Porsche.

638
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 3: There you go, and I have a fantasy for an

639
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: as did Martin, more of a Lamborghini guy than a

640
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 3: Ferrari guy. Yeah, so you know some of those Italian cars.

641
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 3: Ask me about Tesla, right, Like, I gotta tell you so.

642
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 3: I had a Tesla Model Why. I had it on

643
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,959
Speaker 3: a three year lease. Not getting another one of those,

644
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 3: I mean the new one. I was just not a

645
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 3: fan of the of the fit and finish. My driver's

646
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 3: seat fell apart, we had issues with the doors, the

647
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 3: display hinge got loose. It's just not a well manufactured product.

648
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: And the new Model three my wife has. She she

649
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 3: doesn't drive it much, but she likes it a lot.

650
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 3: The quality seems quite a bit better on the new

651
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 3: Model three versus the old model threes and the Model

652
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: Why So. Maybe they'll get there, but I'm just not

653
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: a fan of the Tesla product at this point.

654
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: Mark, I have one more question for you, if we

655
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 1: have time, just in terms, I would want to hear

656
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: about the competition that Apple would or is facing as

657
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 1: it considers or not coming out with this car. Play too,

658
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: but also the car itself, especially as it relates to China,

659
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: because obviously we don't have Chinese made vehicles here or

660
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: from Chinese companies, but it's yet, it's coming and you know,

661
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: the Chinese market has really proved devastating to traditional automakers,

662
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: especially in Europe this past year, just because they've figured

663
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: out a way to make grade evs. How does that

664
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: affect Apple?

665
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: So let me break this down. It's actually quite simple.

666
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: All the Chinese guys they're going to come out with

667
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: their own cars. They're already doing it. These are basically phones, tablets,

668
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 3: computers on wheels. The autonomy part, I think is really

669
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 3: not important right now. You have to get there eventually,

670
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 3: but today it's not so important. The iPhone is struggling

671
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: in China. It's pretty much Apple's most important market for

672
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: the future, as are the surrounding countries right India, cross

673
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 3: Southeast Asia, et cetera. So all these Chinese companies are

674
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: going to get a lot of fans of their cars.

675
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 3: They're going to sell them cheap, They're going to get

676
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: them in the driveways of everyone. M Maybe they have

677
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: an iPhone today, but I can tell you they're going

678
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: to fall in love with those Chinese evs and they're

679
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: probably going to buy the phone and tech ecosystem that

680
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 3: corresponds to those evs one day.

681
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: Right, you want to be on all the same ecosystem

682
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: when I got the system. You know, a lot of

683
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: my really uh tech heavy friends or friends that understand

684
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: tech better than you know, the average layperson, they seem

685
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: to prefer you know, Windows or Android or LINEX or whatever.

686
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 2: But I feel like the Apple ecosystem, the iOS is

687
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: so intuitive and so easy to use for most people.

688
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 2: Is there anyone else who really can compete? Is shall

689
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 2: me making something that's that good or I don't know

690
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: other manufacturers, but Samsung, you know, is anyone else making

691
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: something that is that easy to use and that addictive

692
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: in terms of getting sucked into the ecosystem, in.

693
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 3: Terms of sucking you into the ecosystem? Absolutely not. I mean,

694
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: Apple's the one that's able to pull you in from

695
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 3: their marketing, their features, how intuitive they are, the applications

696
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 3: and services they have available. But I can tell you

697
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 3: that a car could have the same effect, and that

698
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: is the risk for Apple. Any piece of the ecosystem

699
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 3: breaking open will open the floodgates, and so you need

700
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 3: to own every piece of the ecosystem. That's why even

701
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 3: though Apples smart speakers are some of the worst in

702
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 3: the industry, You've got to have them because if Amazon

703
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 3: Alexa is going to make it work, and Amazon one

704
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: day releases a tablet or a phone or a computer

705
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 3: or whatnot that's compelling enough. You're going to start losing

706
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: people if you're Apple. So owning every important aspect the

707
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 3: ecosystem is really important. And for now it's Apple CarPlay

708
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 3: in the automotive space. There'll be more partnerships there, but

709
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: at some point Apple's going to need it on the

710
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: road end to end experience.

711
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: I knew he would be an awesome guest.

712
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: I know, I want to have him back every month.

713
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: He fascinating.

714
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: He just knows so much. And I love the way,

715
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: you know, he's so quick to compute and spit out

716
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: an answer. You know, it's like having your own chat

717
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: GPT in human form.

718
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: That's a huge compliment. Yeah, I mean honestly, you know,

719
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: I know it's true. And I also love how he's

720
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward, like he just says, yeah, Apple was arrogant.

721
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: There was a lot of hubris there. And no, I

722
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: don't think automakers should allow car play too to be

723
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: in the cars. That's definitely don't trust Apple. Like I

724
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: like how he's just very blunt about it.

725
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: Yes, I think he's one of these journalists who is

726
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 2: so smart and so good at his job. Yep, all right, cool,

727
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 2: what have you got coming up? Have you got anything? Yeah?

728
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 1: Well, this week is Freeze Week in La so it's

729
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: been a lot of art things. But last night I

730
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: went to this very cool party at the Chateau where

731
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: an artist, yes, char Marmal, we're an artist, an artist

732
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: named Anthony James put an Aston Martin Vanquish in this

733
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: huge light box with like infinity mirrors and amazing lights,

734
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: and they craned the car and the car, the four

735
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: thousand pound car and the six thousand pound light box

736
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: over Sunset Boulevard and dropped it by the pool at

737
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: the Chateau. It was very cool, and Anthony's a friend.

738
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: I've known him for many years, so it was really

739
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: cool to see that. And then that car and the

740
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 1: art display is going to be auctioned off for charity

741
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: in a few months to help with La fire relief

742
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: and rebuilding. So that was really cool.

743
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: That's awesome. So freeze, I thought you meant like it's cold,

744
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 2: but you're talking about.

745
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: FRII yeah, e it's the La Art Fair.

746
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: It's a freeze is a broad horizontal band of sculpted

747
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: or painted decoration, usually on a wall or a ceiling.

748
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: I'm just looking it up.

749
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's yes, that is the definition of the word.

750
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: And also it's it's kind of like a mini art

751
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: basel in a way.

752
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 2: So why did this guy choose the Aston Martin? Is

753
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: he a car guy or so?

754
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: First of all, he's British, so he's got a sensitivity

755
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: for British automakers. But Anthony has owned tons of interesting

756
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: cars for years. When I first met him, he had

757
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: an eighty one Rolls Royce Corniche that he was driving around.

758
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: He's got a five or six Alpha Romeos at the

759
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: moment he's got I'm not gonna blow him up completely,

760
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: but he's owned Italian cars from other Italian brands. He

761
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: is actually a legitimate car guy, and so, you know,

762
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: I think this is just one of his things. He's

763
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: done a lot of this sort of endless infinity light

764
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: box thing. He's got a big sculpture at the pendry.

765
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: You might have seen it in sculptures. He just had

766
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: a big one and aspen installed, so they're everywhere. And

767
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: he actually when I first met him, he had put

768
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 1: a crashed Ferrari his own crashed Ferrari in a box,

769
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: a light box with some birch.

770
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: He crashed it.

771
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: It's unclear that I'm going to I'm going to plead

772
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: the fifth on that it may have might have, it

773
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: was damaged. I'm just gonna say the car was damaged.

774
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: And he put that in the It's very cool. You

775
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: can google it. So he's got a long history of

776
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: affinity for cars and.

777
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: We should have him on the show.

778
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to get him on the show. I actually

779
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: mentioned it to him last night and he said he'd

780
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: be happy to come on. So we just got to

781
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: pick a date and he can tell us himself about

782
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: his love for cars.

783
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 2: All right, that sounds very cool.

784
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was great.

785
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: I am off to Austin, first of twin trips to Austin. Yeah.

786
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: So I'm going to go down there and ride motorcycles

787
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: with the CEO of Well, actually I'm going to ride

788
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: the new Harley Davidson lineup and I was supposed to

789
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: go with the CEO of Harley Davis and Yolkin Sights,

790
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: but it's unclear now if Yolk is gonna go. They said,

791
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 2: you know what, he might he might not be coming.

792
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: Would you still be interested in riding our full lineup

793
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 2: if he doesn't join up, And I said, one hundred

794
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 2: percent absolutely yes, I still want I mean, the main

795
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 2: thing I want to do is ride the bikes, right,

796
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: But of course I would have loved to ask him

797
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: a million questions about you know, Harley stock has been

798
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 2: down and their sales have been down, and I want

799
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: to see them do well. I'm not I'm not I'm

800
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 2: not one hundred percent clear on why he can't make it,

801
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: but you know that Harley is being talked about in

802
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: terms of reciprocal tariffs. Now, last time Trump put on tariffs,

803
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: then Europe responded by putting big tariffs on Harley and

804
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: Levi's and Jack Daniels. And to me, this would be

805
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: a point of pride, right, that's you're one of the

806
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 2: most American products in the whole world, and you know

807
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: that's why they're doing that. And of course it hurts

808
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 2: more to people in Europe because they want to buy

809
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: that American product. In any case, I don't know exactly why,

810
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: and I hope still to talk to him, but I

811
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: also I don't know how this squares with my journal's integrity,

812
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: but I root for this company to come back right

813
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: as I want it to be an American success story.

814
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 2: I want the manufacturing business to grow. I want the

815
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: workers to have better, more solid, high paying jobs. Like

816
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: to me, we should all be rooting for Harley Davidson

817
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: to make a comeback.

818
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: You know what that makes me think? To me, the

819
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: biggest fans also have the right to be the biggest critics.

820
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: And you criticize and critique because you actually do careen

821
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: and it you know, you want it to do well,

822
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: you want it to do better than it is. And

823
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: you see that it can you know, and you're you're

824
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: pain that it's not. So I get that.

825
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 2: By the way, this is a company where it's really

826
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: easy to criticize, right because they they're selling basically nostalgia.

827
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 2: They're selling you like a nineteen, I don't know, sixties

828
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 2: or seventies ideal of this. You know, Born to Ride,

829
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: you know, easy rider. The guys coming back from World

830
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: War Two and this is you know, how they get

831
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: their freedom. And but they've got to do it in

832
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 2: a modern way, a more fuel efficient way. They've got

833
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: to put better, put out better horsepower numbers. You know,

834
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 2: everybody wants an engine that's you know, technologically advanced, but

835
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 2: I also still want this two liter lump. So I

836
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: feel like they're threading a needle in a really successful way.

837
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: And yeah, I just uh, I'm just I'm just pretty

838
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: thrilled to be able to test the products.

839
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: That's great. I you know, I had a thought and

840
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: this is not directed at Harley Davidson at all, but

841
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: I also think it's possible for a company to have

842
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: a shelf life, you know, and this is again not

843
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: directed at any specific company, but not all companies are

844
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: going to exist forever and last forever, and if they

845
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: fail to adapt and evolve, they've got a shelf life.

846
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah, for sure. And I mean you're seeing,

847
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 2: but you're seeing competitors come into this market. Obviously, Indian

848
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,280
Speaker 2: came back years ago and has had varying degrees of success.

849
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: Ducati has tried to put up a fight against the

850
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: American cruisers with its xdavel and I don't know how

851
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: much success they've they've had with that. In general, the

852
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: motorcycle market is just a tough slog right now, and

853
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 2: has been since the Great Financial Crisis. I don't know

854
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: what's going to turn that around, but maybe I can

855
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 2: be part of it.

856
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I still would love to. Let's get some

857
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: electric vespas going. I'm being really come on.

858
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure. I mean they are out there. The question

859
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: is right now, they're not really cost efficient the world.

860
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: Do you think the world would be a better place

861
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: if everybody rode a motorcycle?

862
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent.

863
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: I do agree with that as well.

864
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're not in that cage. You're not like

865
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 2: watching a movie. You're part of the movie. You're you're

866
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: in the scene.

867
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: People would drive very differently. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

868
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 2: All right, Well, it's been great talking to you today.

869
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, so much fun.

870
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: All right, I'm Matt Miller

871
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: And I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Bloomberg.