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Speaker 1: Hey, Orkay, if we're living in a simulation, whoa, whoa,

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Speaker 1: whoa Wait, if what do you mean? Is it a

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Speaker 1: foregone conclusion that we are in a simulation? Just hear

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Speaker 1: me out. If we're living in a simulation, do you

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Speaker 1: ever wonder why why you're so paranoid? No? Why are

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Speaker 1: the masters of this simulation doing this to us? Are

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Speaker 1: we part of some crazy experiment? Oh? Man, I hope

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Speaker 1: we're not like an experiment in a middle school science project,

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Speaker 1: because I know how those go. Given how this year

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Speaker 1: has gone, I'm thinking it's probably some bitter grad students somewhere. Man,

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Speaker 1: I need it. It's all the follows the professor out

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Speaker 1: there right ignoring their grad students Blame the professor. It's

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Speaker 1: so easy. I am more handmade cartoonists and the creator

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Speaker 1: of PhD comment. I. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist,

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Speaker 1: and I'm always kind to anything in my simulated universes,

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Speaker 1: in case, in case there's a point system, you mean,

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Speaker 1: like a score, in case they're experiencing it. Right, when

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Speaker 1: you build artificial intelligence in your simulated universe, you don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they really are alive, and when you pull the plug,

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Speaker 1: maybe they really do die. I thought maybe you were

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Speaker 1: worried that somebody's watching the simulation and judging you. Well,

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Speaker 1: if I'm in a simulation, that, yeah, maybe somebody will

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Speaker 1: punish me for treating my simulations badly. Karma. The universe

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Speaker 1: does work on karma, on some kind of point system.

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Speaker 1: I should teach the folks in my simulation to treat

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Speaker 1: their simulations well. Welcome to a podcast Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: Explain the Universe, a production of I Heart Radio, in

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Speaker 1: which we talk about all the amazing things in our universe,

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Speaker 1: the way it works, the way it doesn't work, the

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Speaker 1: things that we understand about it, and the things that

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Speaker 1: we don't understand about it, and all the hidden mysteries,

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Speaker 1: all the things that we're hoping to understand, the future

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Speaker 1: revolutions in knowledge that will change the very nature of

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Speaker 1: the universe as we know it. Yeah, we like to

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Speaker 1: talk about all the amazing things to discover out there,

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Speaker 1: and we like to talk about the things that are

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Speaker 1: especially a real and sometimes that's right. And in the

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Speaker 1: group of folks trying to figure out the universe is

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Speaker 1: of course you. Your curiosity helps power the human experiment

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Speaker 1: that is science, pushing forward on the boundary of knowledge

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Speaker 1: and science fiction authors who are thinking about the ways

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Speaker 1: that the universe might be. Could it be this way,

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Speaker 1: could it be that way? What kind of incredible technology

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Speaker 1: or science discoveries are waiting around the corner. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, somebody needs license to do that.

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Speaker 1: You know, just come up with random things and see

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Speaker 1: how it looks on the page without having to worry

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Speaker 1: about pesky things like the laws of physics. You think

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Speaker 1: there should be a license for that, Like you gotta

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Speaker 1: take a test see if you can come up with

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Speaker 1: good ideas. Otherwise you're not allowed to write science pictures.

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Speaker 1: To make complete stop at the end of paragraphs or

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Speaker 1: do you signal plot points? That's important. If you can't

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Speaker 1: parallel park the ending, you shouldn't even get in the car. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we like to talk about not just the big

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Speaker 1: ideas that's science to start thinking about, but even maybe

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Speaker 1: the ideas that science fiction authors are thinking about way

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Speaker 1: way in the future and way way out in the

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Speaker 1: creative spaces that exists in between science theories. That's right,

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Speaker 1: because there's a lot in common between science and science fiction.

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Speaker 1: In science, we are playing detectives, we are trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what are the rules of the universe? Are

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Speaker 1: they this? Are they that? Could they be this other thing?

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Speaker 1: Does the evidence line up with one theory or the other?

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Speaker 1: And science fiction authors are doing the same thing. They're

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Speaker 1: wondering what would the universe be like if it worked

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Speaker 1: this way or that way? What would the human experience

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Speaker 1: be if we could do this thing or had this technology.

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Speaker 1: It's really very similar and they build off of each other. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: do they ever talk, Daniel, Do you ever have like

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Speaker 1: science science fiction conferences or do you just do it

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Speaker 1: in chat rooms online? That's what novels are for, right,

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Speaker 1: They write their ideas down, we read them and we go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I like it. I'm gonna go see if that's real,

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Speaker 1: or I'm gonna go make that technology happen. I see.

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Speaker 1: But there is a small overlap. There are practicing scientists

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Speaker 1: who are also published science fiction authors, and there are

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Speaker 1: successful science fiction authors who have a real training in

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Speaker 1: science history a career of doing science. And that's especially

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Speaker 1: amazing and impressive to me. Do you think they need

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Speaker 1: to put an asterisk maybe next to their fictional work,

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Speaker 1: you know, just to be clear, because it could be

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Speaker 1: a little confusing. It's kind of like when you know,

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Speaker 1: like a CNN anchor will be pitching their you know,

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Speaker 1: government political thriller. I'm always like, well, you know, most

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Speaker 1: of the stuff put out by theoretical physicists is fiction anyway.

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Speaker 1: I mean, very little of it corresponds to reality. So

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Speaker 1: I see it just lacks a plot and characters and

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Speaker 1: dramatic attention. Yeah, but you know, they don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's real. They're just like they're trying to build old

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Speaker 1: hypothetical universe. They're trying to see could this be reality?

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Speaker 1: Could it work? And in the same way, at least,

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Speaker 1: good science fiction tries to build a self consistent hypothetical

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Speaker 1: reality and asks what would it be like to live

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Speaker 1: in that reality? And also could it be ours? Interesting?

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, today we'll be continuing our series of

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Speaker 1: episodes in which Daniel talks to well known science fiction

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Speaker 1: authors about their work, about their process, about the science

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Speaker 1: in their work. And we like to talk about the

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Speaker 1: science of those stories here on the podcast. That's right,

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Speaker 1: because we are curious about how the universe works, and

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Speaker 1: we wonder why does it work this way and not

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Speaker 1: the other way? And so for the masters of these universes,

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Speaker 1: the authors of these crazy ideas. We like to hear,

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Speaker 1: why did you build your universe this way? Or does

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Speaker 1: this really work with that? Or where do these ideas

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Speaker 1: come from? So to be on the podcast, we'll be

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Speaker 1: talking about the science fiction universe of Vandana sing the

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Speaker 1: That's right, and I really enjoyed reading her stories. She's

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Speaker 1: a bit of an unusual entry in our series because

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Speaker 1: she doesn't write novels. She's mostly an author of short

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Speaker 1: fiction novellas and short stories. But her stories are really

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Speaker 1: deeply scientific, Like each one is actually science fiction, not

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Speaker 1: technology fiction. It's like, imagine if the science of the

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Speaker 1: universe were this way, not what if we invented this

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Speaker 1: gizmo or had this technology? Wow, So do you think

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Speaker 1: that's like a step further than most science fiction, Like

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Speaker 1: most science fictions you're saying, just kind of makes technology up.

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Speaker 1: But she's here like changing the laws of physics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: most science fiction really is engineering fiction. It's you know,

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Speaker 1: could we build this thing? Could we figure out how

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Speaker 1: to make this kind of ship or that kind of

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Speaker 1: laser or whatever. But I think the most interesting and

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Speaker 1: fascinating kind of idea is, yeah, let's change the laws

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Speaker 1: of physics, or what if the laws of physics were

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Speaker 1: different from what we imagined. There's another author we've talked

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Speaker 1: about on the podcast before, Greg Egan, who writes really deep,

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Speaker 1: fascinating ideas like that, And I think that dev and

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Speaker 1: Dennising is in that same category. Interesting. You know, normally

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Speaker 1: I would argue for a name change to give engineering

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Speaker 1: its due, but I don't think I want the word

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Speaker 1: engineering associated with fiction. You know, maybe let's just keep

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Speaker 1: it at science fiction. That's right. I don't want my

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Speaker 1: bridge designed by somebody who also writes fiction. And you don't, right,

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Speaker 1: or like you don't want your doctor, your medical doctor,

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Speaker 1: to also be you know, a fantasy author. Right, here's

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Speaker 1: your prescription and here's my littist fiction. Hoops, wait, I

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Speaker 1: switched them up. Which is which Again, it's about really

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Speaker 1: handsome and beautiful magical healer that uses quantum stones to

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Speaker 1: cure your diseases. But trust me, this medicine, Wilwards, Oh boy,

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Speaker 1: quantum stones. But anyways, she is an interesting author of

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Speaker 1: science fiction because she is also a scientist. She's a

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Speaker 1: professor of physics, that's right. I know her because I

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Speaker 1: found her stories and I read and then I enjoyed them.

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Speaker 1: Then I went to track her down to see if

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Speaker 1: she'd be willing to appear on the podcast, and I

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Speaker 1: discovered not only does she have a PhD in theoretical

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Speaker 1: particle physics, so wow, she knows her stuff. She's a

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Speaker 1: professor of physics. Like right now when I spoke to her,

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Speaker 1: she had just finished teaching a class, So she's a

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Speaker 1: practicing physicist today as well as a practicing science fiction author. Wow,

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Speaker 1: you have now two members in your club, Danniel of

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Speaker 1: physics Professors. Wait, now, don't you have several? Aren't there

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Speaker 1: several of you? There are several. Yeah, we have Greg

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Speaker 1: Benford here at u c I. He's a pretty well

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Speaker 1: known science fiction author and until recently an active member

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Speaker 1: of our department. There was Alistair Reynolds. He worked at

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Speaker 1: E s A doing astrophysics before leaving that actually to

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Speaker 1: pursue science fiction writing and becoming massively successful. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a good number of folks who have done this crossover.

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Speaker 1: And so we'll get into her stories. And as you said,

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Speaker 1: she's a little bit different that she write short stories.

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Speaker 1: So today we'll be talking about two of her stories

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Speaker 1: in this episode, and they're titled Sailing and Tarsa and

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Speaker 1: Perry Peteria. Now, Daniel, how can we read our work? Well,

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Speaker 1: she's got collections of short stories out. These two stories

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Speaker 1: appear in a collection called Ambiguity Machines. She also has

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Speaker 1: another collection which is really wonderful, which even the title

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Speaker 1: is fantastic. It's called The Woman Who Thought She Was

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Speaker 1: a Planet. Wow, that is pretty intriguing just from the title. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's not like somebody went to the buffet and

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Speaker 1: over eight and then felt like a planet. It's a

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Speaker 1: much deeper, interesting dive into what aliens could be like.

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Speaker 1: So I totally recommend both collections. I thoroughly enjoyed both

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Speaker 1: of them are interesting. All right, so let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the first of these stories. But you said that there's

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Speaker 1: a general theme about these stories that she writes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the general theme in all of her stories is that

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Speaker 1: the universe contains mysteries, that what we see is not

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Speaker 1: everything that is, and that scientists can crack this open

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Speaker 1: and reveal deep new truths about the universe. And this

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Speaker 1: is definitely a concept up that resonates with me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you just look back into the history of science and

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Speaker 1: you see, like the revolution of quantum mechanics where we

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Speaker 1: revealed that the universe works completely differently from the way

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Speaker 1: our intuition works, or relativity that tells us that nonsensical

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Speaker 1: things like different people can have different accountings of events

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Speaker 1: and both be correct. You know, these moments where we

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Speaker 1: shake the foundations of our understanding and our intuition and

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Speaker 1: realize that the way we're looking at the universe is

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Speaker 1: more a product of how our brains work and how

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Speaker 1: we've developed than the fundamental truth. Those are exciting moments

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Speaker 1: in science, and I think that those lie ahead, and

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Speaker 1: it's really fun in her stories to see her speculate

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Speaker 1: about potential future revolutions or how we might reveal new

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Speaker 1: truths about the universe. Interesting. Now, are her stories and

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Speaker 1: kind of about those moments of discovery or do they

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Speaker 1: sort of assume those moments and then you know, figures

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Speaker 1: out how the world would be like if we made

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Speaker 1: those discoveries. Yeah. Both. She explores both kinds of things

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Speaker 1: and other kinds of relationships with it. Sometimes they're about

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Speaker 1: the scientists who are making those discoveries, and sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: about how the world is different deep into the future

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Speaker 1: after you've made that discovery and you have to sort

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Speaker 1: of unpack it for yourself to realize, Wow, my universe

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Speaker 1: is different from the one in this story. What is

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Speaker 1: the difference? What is the thing that they figured out

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Speaker 1: that makes their world different. So she's explored from a

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Speaker 1: lot of different angles. Right. So the first story is

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Speaker 1: called Sailing the n Tarsa and it's kind of about

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Speaker 1: some an interesting concept that I've never heard about. It's

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Speaker 1: called invisible particles. Yeah, it's about invisible particles. So in

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Speaker 1: this story, we live in the universe far in the

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Speaker 1: future where science has discovered something fascinating that the universe

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Speaker 1: is filled with invisible particles we hadn't been aware of previously.

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Speaker 1: And more than just that, these invisible particles have currents,

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Speaker 1: so they are flying through the universe, carrying with them

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Speaker 1: vast amounts of energy because they're flowing through the universe.

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Speaker 1: Now are they invisible? And also like they can't interact

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Speaker 1: with electro magnetic energy or you just can't see them,

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Speaker 1: but you can interact with them. You can't see them,

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Speaker 1: and we can't use current ideas about physics or our

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Speaker 1: technology to interact with them, which is why they went

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Speaker 1: undiscovered for so long. And you know, this is really

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Speaker 1: reminiscent of where we are today in science, though we'll

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Speaker 1: dig into that more in a moment. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can imagine, for example, before we knew about new trinos,

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Speaker 1: our universe is filled with new trinos passing through us.

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Speaker 1: Like you hold your hand out and there are billions

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Speaker 1: of new trinos passing through your fingernail at every moment,

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Speaker 1: carrying vast amounts of energy. But because we can't interact

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Speaker 1: with them very much, we hardly notice. They don't bounce

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Speaker 1: off our thumbs, they don't push us, they don't give

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Speaker 1: us cancer. And so in this story, the scientists have

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Speaker 1: found some new kind of particle previously unknown to humanity

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Speaker 1: or to science that's flying through the universe and they

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Speaker 1: can't really interact with it. But you know, to just

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Speaker 1: discover this kind of particle, you have to be able

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Speaker 1: to interact with it, otherwise it might just exist and

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Speaker 1: you don't even know about it. Right, So in this story,

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Speaker 1: they have figured out some way to interact with this

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Speaker 1: invisible particle, some way to discover it and then take

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Speaker 1: advantage of it to harness it. How do they take

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Speaker 1: advantage Well, she doesn't get into the gory details of that,

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Speaker 1: but they build something which in the story is called

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Speaker 1: alt matter, some new kind of matter which can interact

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Speaker 1: both with us and with these invisible particles. And if

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Speaker 1: you fashion it into big sheets, for example, then it

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Speaker 1: can capture the momentum of these particles. It's like sailing

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Speaker 1: through the universe on light, but instead it's capturing the

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Speaker 1: energy of these previously invisible particles. And so they are

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Speaker 1: you saying, there are currents, like over here, it's flowing

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Speaker 1: this way, and over there it's this invisible matter is

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Speaker 1: flowing the other way. Precisely, it's like you discover that

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Speaker 1: you're on an island and the water around you is flat,

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Speaker 1: but there are currents of air. And if you just

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Speaker 1: build a sale, you can get pushed from one island

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Speaker 1: to the other. But you have to build something which

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Speaker 1: can capture the momentum of the wind. So here the

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Speaker 1: wind are these previously unknown invisible particles, and if you

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Speaker 1: build something which can interact with them, something which captures

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Speaker 1: their momentum, then you can capture the momentum and transfer

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Speaker 1: it to your spaceship. For example, go with the flow

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Speaker 1: of the universe. Yeah, the invisible flow. Yeah. And it's

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Speaker 1: fascinating because you know we have this idea of a

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Speaker 1: solar sale, like that you could fly through the universe

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Speaker 1: on light that comes from the sun. You build a

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Speaker 1: big reflective sheet and when photons hit it, they bounce off,

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Speaker 1: and that gives you momentum and you fly forward. We

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Speaker 1: have a whole fun podcast episode about that. But the

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Speaker 1: big problem with that is that you can't really travel

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Speaker 1: between the stars that way very easily, because once you

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Speaker 1: get far from the star, there's not much light anymore. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you run out of solar wind. Yeah, you run out

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Speaker 1: of solar wind. But if the universe is filled with

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Speaker 1: these currents of particles and you know where those currents are,

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Speaker 1: then you can ride those currents between the stars. So

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Speaker 1: in the story, this creates this new opportunity to build

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Speaker 1: small ships that don't have to carry a lot of

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Speaker 1: fuel but can get between stars pretty efficiently. Right, And

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Speaker 1: so this lets humanity in this story sail between stars

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Speaker 1: because now we have like this kind of like free

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Speaker 1: source of energy almost that we can used to get

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Speaker 1: to other stars because it's hard to like bring all

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Speaker 1: the fuel with you. Yeah, it's like the development of

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Speaker 1: a sailboat, you know, beats a rowboat every time because

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Speaker 1: you can just chill out and have the wind push you,

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Speaker 1: and you can sail across the ocean without having to

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Speaker 1: bring folks that are going to row you across the ocean.

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Speaker 1: So it suddenly makes your ships have a much, much

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Speaker 1: greater range. Yeah cool, all right. So then in the story,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they discover this technology and these invisible particles,

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Speaker 1: but it's not the first time that they send people

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Speaker 1: on into space. Yeah. So this is like the core

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Speaker 1: nuggetive the idea, right that she's really thought deeply about

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Speaker 1: how to build an alternative universe, and then she thought

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Speaker 1: about what would that be, Like what story can you

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Speaker 1: tell in that universe? And the story takes place at

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Speaker 1: a time just after this discovery, and so previously humanity

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Speaker 1: has sent some big slow ship an arc to some

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Speaker 1: other star before they have this technology, and they haven't

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Speaker 1: heard back from it, and they wonder like, is it alive,

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Speaker 1: did it crash? Did survived? Are they they're building things

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Speaker 1: happily or is it totally dead? So they send a

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Speaker 1: pilot in the ship equipped with these matter sales to

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Speaker 1: catch up to it and to figure out what's going on.

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Speaker 1: And so most of the story is her journey and

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Speaker 1: wondering what happened to this art. It's like they send

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Speaker 1: out a huge rowboat out first, and then they're like, wait,

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Speaker 1: we discovered sailboats. Let's go tell them, or let's catch

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Speaker 1: up to them, or what's the purpose. Can't they just

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Speaker 1: talk to them on the radio. Well, you know, light

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Speaker 1: speed is very slow, but this is just to send

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Speaker 1: somebody out to investigate, to say what happened to make

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Speaker 1: a connection. Can't the radio back? They haven't heard anything back,

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Speaker 1: So I see they're not picking up the phone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: nobody's responding, and so the next step investigation is, you know,

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Speaker 1: send some out there and see what happens. Maybe they're

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Speaker 1: transmitter broke or maybe they're all dead. Case it's about

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Speaker 1: the cable, guys. What you're saying, and he's going out there.

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Speaker 1: The Internet is down on Alpha Centauri. Somebody go fix it.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's got to do it. All right, let's get into

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Speaker 1: the signs of sailing the entarsa and then these invisible particles.

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Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. All right, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this science fiction universe of Vandana Singh, and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a couple of her stories, and this

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Speaker 1: first one it's called sailing the Atarsa and Daniel. You

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Speaker 1: were saying that they discovered invisible particles that have been

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Speaker 1: there in the universe that we had no idea about.

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Speaker 1: It sounds really familiar. It does sounds familiar. It sounds

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Speaker 1: a lot like dark matter. Right. We know that the

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Speaker 1: universe is filled with all sorts of stuff we don't understand,

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Speaker 1: and we know that there are kinds of matter that

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Speaker 1: we are not familiar with. We know that dark matter

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Speaker 1: is out there from how it's gravity affects the rotation

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Speaker 1: of galaxies and the structure of the universe and the

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Speaker 1: shape of things very very early on, and all sorts

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Speaker 1: of other evidence. So we know it's there, but we

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Speaker 1: don't know what it is. So there really are currents

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Speaker 1: of invisible particles out there. Now. This idea of currents

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Speaker 1: is interesting to me because I remember that he told

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Speaker 1: me dark matter is cold, meaning it's not moving very much.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Dark matter is pretty slow moving and heavy

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Speaker 1: in order to be consistent with how the universe forms.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't have to be totally stationary. Most likely

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like floating in diffused clouds and not

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Speaker 1: really going very far. But there might still be dark streams.

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Speaker 1: There might be still be motion of the dark matter,

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Speaker 1: and you know, those speeds could be significant on cosmological scales.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can be moving pretty fast compared to

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Speaker 1: the think that's the title of your next novel, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: dark winds. And even if dark matter is totally stationary,

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Speaker 1: we actually do expect to feel a dark matter wind

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Speaker 1: because the Earth is moving right right. Dark matter is

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Speaker 1: stationary with respect to the galaxy. We're moving around the

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Speaker 1: center of the galaxy and we're moving around the Sun.

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Speaker 1: Even if dark matter is rotating the same speed around

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Speaker 1: the sider of the galaxy as we are, then you

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Speaker 1: would expect to be going sort of headways into the

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Speaker 1: dark matter as you go around the Sun, and then

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Speaker 1: the other direction through the dark matter. And so you

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Speaker 1: would feel a differential dark matter wind at different parts

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Speaker 1: of the year. So it would be sort of like

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Speaker 1: popping a parachute when you're in the middle of a

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Speaker 1: speedboat or something. Yeah, exactly, it could be. And so

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Speaker 1: if we discover dark matter and we find some way

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Speaker 1: to interact with it, and that's key, it might be

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Speaker 1: possible to take advantage of it. Because it's very massive,

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Speaker 1: it has an enormous amount of energy just in being there.

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Speaker 1: We might find some way to take advantage of it

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Speaker 1: to propel ourselves. But the key quest in there is

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Speaker 1: like to catch it? How to catch it? Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: we don't know how to interact with dark matter. All

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Speaker 1: we know is that dark matter feels gravity, and we

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Speaker 1: have no other way to see it. We have all

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Speaker 1: these experiments that are trying to interact with dark matter

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Speaker 1: in some other way. Maybe there's a new force, maybe

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Speaker 1: they use the weak force. So far none of those

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Speaker 1: have been successful. So even if dark matter is real,

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Speaker 1: even if dark matter is out there, even if dark

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Speaker 1: matter is in a wind, the only way to make

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Speaker 1: this story real would be to be able to build

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Speaker 1: these alt matter sales, these things which somehow can interact

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Speaker 1: with our matter and the dark matter. And that's a

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Speaker 1: huge question mark, I guess maybe how would you see

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Speaker 1: it even plausible? Like would you have to like what

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Speaker 1: do you think it could be? Like you discover a

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Speaker 1: new kind of element maybe that interacts with it somehow,

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Speaker 1: or or a new kind of particle that interacts with

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Speaker 1: both us and dark matter? Is that any way possible? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: we think that there might be some new particle like

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Speaker 1: a dark photon which could interact with dark matter and

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Speaker 1: our kind of matter. But the problem is that we've

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Speaker 1: been looking for that for a long time and we

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Speaker 1: haven't seen it, which means that if it does exist,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty weak. And so this whole concept of sailing

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Speaker 1: on dark matter requires dark matter to push our matter,

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Speaker 1: because we want to push ourselves and our ships, which

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Speaker 1: are made of our kind of matter, and so we

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Speaker 1: don't want that to be too weak. But it could be.

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Speaker 1: It could be that it's very weak, but it happens,

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Speaker 1: and then you just need to build like incredibly vast

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Speaker 1: sales in order to capture it. The way you could

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Speaker 1: try to capture neutrino energy, because neutrinos interact with us,

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Speaker 1: but they're also again very very weak. So even though

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of energy pumped out by the Sun

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Speaker 1: in terms of neutrinos, we can't really capture it because

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Speaker 1: we have no way to interact with those neutrinos at

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Speaker 1: a high level. And yeah, we know neutrinos are going

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Speaker 1: by really fast, right, those we do know for sure

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Speaker 1: they have a lot of energy, that's right, They do

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Speaker 1: have a lot of energy. Mostly they're fast because they

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Speaker 1: have very low mass like neutrinos are almost massless, so

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Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot of energy to make them

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Speaker 1: go really really fast. And that's actually how we know

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Speaker 1: the neutrinos are not the dark matter, because we think

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Speaker 1: the dark matter is heavy and slow moving, and neutrinos

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Speaker 1: are not that. But the underlying concept here that the

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Speaker 1: universe could be filled with invisible stuff and if we

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Speaker 1: crack those mysteries, then we might potentially give ourselves incredible

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Speaker 1: new powers. That is totally true that I think is

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Speaker 1: our situation. I think people will look back in a

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Speaker 1: hundred years or five hundred years and say, wow, look

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Speaker 1: how clueless those folks were. They had no idea everything

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Speaker 1: that was around them and all the things they can

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Speaker 1: do with right, And it has happened in the past

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Speaker 1: a lot too. Write Like you know, before physics in

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Speaker 1: the last century, we didn't know there was so much

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Speaker 1: energy in the nuclei of atom, for example, or we

430
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: didn't know that you can use quantum tunneling to take

431
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: photographs of atoms and small things. Absolutely, nuclear energy is

432
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 1: the perfect example because as you say, it's a vast,

433
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: vast source of energy. Turns out all the matter around

434
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 1: us is very dense with energy, and it's not that

435
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: hard to crack it open. And so yeah, absolutely we

436
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: had no idea, Right, we had no idea. You understand

437
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: the way a matter works, in the way the universe works,

438
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: then you can bend it to your will. So yeah,

439
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 1: there's a payoff for basic science research and science fiction writing,

440
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: science fiction writing and both. All right, let's talk about

441
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: her second story that you picked for this episode. It's

442
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: called Perry Peta da am I pronouncing that right? Yes?

443
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: I think so, parapatea. It's a crazy story. And as

444
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 1: you'll hear in my interview with her crazy name for

445
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: a story, she even admits that this story is a

446
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: little bit nutty, but I loved it because it had

447
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: an idea in it I had never heard before. I'm intrigued.

448
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: What's the idea? So the idea starts with one that's

449
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: fairly familiar, which is, what if our universe is a simulation?

450
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 1: So instead of being real, instead of everything we're discovering

451
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: and learning and seeing and experiencing being the product of

452
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 1: like actual physical things bouncing into each other, it's just

453
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: a simulation fed to us by some hute or somewhere,

454
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: meaning that we don't actually interact with things. It's just

455
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: something that is made up by another set of actual

456
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: physical things in somewhere else. Yeah, exactly. And there's lots

457
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: of variations of this this, you know, from the matrix

458
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 1: where you're a brain in a vat plugged into a

459
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: computer simulation, or a deeper idea where your brain itself

460
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: is part of the simulation, and all sorts of variations

461
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: on that. But she came up with what I thought

462
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 1: was a really clever innovation on this idea, and that's

463
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: that the aliens are a little bit lazy. What do

464
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: you mean, I mean that they haven't quite finished the job.

465
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: And so in her version, we are scientists in this simulation.

466
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: We're trying to uncover the rules of the universe, which

467
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: turned out to be just you know, the source code

468
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: of the simulation. But they didn't quite finish the job.

469
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: They haven't quite figured out how does this universe work?

470
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 1: You know, they have like a few functions that they

471
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: didn't quite rite or are a little bit sloppy. What

472
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: they pay attention as we the scientists in the simulation

473
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: try to figure it out. And when a scientist in

474
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: the simulation has a good idea thinks maybe the universe

475
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: works this way and comes up with some clever mathematical formulation.

476
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: If the aliens like it, they make it real. What

477
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: and to you're the plot is like we are in

478
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: the simulation figuring out what's happening, and the universe is

479
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: changing around us, like there's an update and then suddenly

480
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: everything is different. Yes, there's an update. And so if

481
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: you have a good idea, not only could you discover

482
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: that it's real, you could have been responsible for making

483
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: it real. Oh weird, it's pretty weird and nutty, and

484
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: you know, it gets into all sorts of hilarious stuff.

485
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: Like she talks about these anecdotes about people predicting particles

486
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: and then they're observed, and sometimes that just takes a

487
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: few years, and sometimes it takes like fifty years, Like

488
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 1: there's fifty years between predicting the hats boson and discovering it.

489
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, maybe it took the aliens a

490
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: little while to write that code. You know, it could

491
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: be hard, and it's like for sure that it wasn't

492
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: there before, Like somehow our scientists know for sure that

493
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: this feature wasn't in the software before, but now it is, Yeah,

494
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: but now it is, and it's pretty fun. And it

495
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: takes place from the point of view of one of

496
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: these scientists, and she's thinking about the way the world works,

497
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: and she starts to suspect that maybe this is the

498
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: way the world works. And then it goes into all

499
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: these deep layers because if she has come up with

500
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: this idea that this is how the universe works and

501
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: it's true, then has she is she responsible for making

502
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: this be the way the world works? Has she invented

503
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: the aliens by thinking of them? And so there's all

504
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: sorts of like philosophical layers there. What do you mean

505
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: she can invent the aliens like she thought aliens simulating

506
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: this was a good idea, and so somehow the aliens

507
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: made the aliens. Yeah, exactly. And then at the end,

508
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: maybe she goes a little crazy. I don't want to

509
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: spoil it, but she wonders if she is actually one

510
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: of the aliens creating this universe. And so anyway, it

511
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: goes into fascinating little wrinkles of ideas. But it's definitely

512
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: a bit nutty. Nia would say, whoa, whoa, But it's

513
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: not something I've heard of before, you know, I think

514
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: of theoretical physicists as just proposing ideas and experimentalists figuring

515
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: out if they're true or not not, like theorists are

516
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: responsible for their ideas becoming true. I see, well, so

517
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: I guess what you're saying. It's our universe is kind

518
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: of like the beta version? Is that possible? Like can

519
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: you make a universe that's not self consistent? Like that's

520
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: prone to bugs. It's a fascinating idea. There are some

521
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: issues with it, right as you say, don't you need

522
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: to work out all the details before you turn the

523
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: thing on? Well, you know, sometimes you turn something on

524
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: and you leave things fuzzy, right, You're like, I'll figure

525
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: that part out later, and then you flesh it out

526
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: when you get there. And you could imagine doing a

527
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: simulation is sort of like different levels of reality, different greeniness.

528
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: Like maybe the universe five thousand years ago, before we

529
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: were better at looking and stuff was a little fuzzier,

530
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: you know. And as our technology developed, the aliens like

531
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: added more pixels to the universe, and as we develop

532
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: space telescope are like, oops, we better put something in

533
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: those other galaxies around than just having smudges. Let's brain

534
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: storm quick is the universe finite or anything. I don't

535
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: know what are the humans thinking. Whatever they do, you know,

536
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: we'll follow that, like, let's invent the speed limit to

537
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: the speed of lights, therefore they can't look out that far.

538
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: All right? That sounds good, exactly exactly. It's awfully realistic,

539
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: because you know, maybe these folks are just a bunch

540
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: of bitter, procrastinating grad students and they just haven't worked

541
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: out the details yet, I see. Or they're like, what

542
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: if we make it free to play? But then you

543
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: have to pay to get extra stuff in it? Oh? Man,

544
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: I hate in universe purchases. That's a bummer. Another fascinating

545
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: angle is what if this is true? But what if

546
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: there are multiple intelligent species out there? What if some

547
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: other race of aliens are trying to figure out the

548
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: universe and they're coming up with different ideas, So like

549
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: their galaxy is now following a different set of laws

550
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: of physics than our galaxy. What happens if we ever

551
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: meet them? You know? It's confusing? Oh wow, So that happens.

552
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: Do we meet other aliens in the simulation? We do

553
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: not not in this story, but she speculates about what

554
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: that would mean. Does this mean we're the only intelligent

555
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: people in this simulation. Doesn't mean that the universe would break.

556
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: It would like crash if we ever met other intelligent

557
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: aliens and top physits with them. It's a pretty fun

558
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: investigation of this idea. Are we like the customers or

559
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: we just like the fish in the fish bowl? I

560
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: don't know, that's a deep question. Are we the customers

561
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: or the captives? Right? Since we can't leave the simulation,

562
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: I would say we're more like captives than customers. But

563
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: then again, we wouldn't exist without the simulation, so you

564
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: know we kind of benefit from it in an existential way. Yeah,

565
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: that's a dangerous argument. I think historically that's the pretty

566
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: slippery slop. All right, Well, let's talk about the science

567
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: of it. And you said, Daniel that this is like

568
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: a quantum simulation. What does that mean? How is that

569
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: different than a regular simulation. Well, I think she's latching

570
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: onto the sort of the uncertainty and the fuzziness of

571
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. She's focusing on this idea that if you

572
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: haven't looked at something, maybe it's left undetermined, and you know,

573
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: we're familiar with that, where like an electron couldn't go

574
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: left or could go right based on some fixed laws

575
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: of physics we just haven't looked yet, and so the

576
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: universe hasn't decided if it's gone left or right. She's

577
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: taken that one step deeper and saying, well, what if

578
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: the laws themselves are not fixed until we think about

579
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: them clearly? Right? What if the quantum mechanical nature the

580
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: universe extends to the definition of the laws. Interesting. Well,

581
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions for her. I'm sure

582
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: you had a lot of questions for her, Daniel, So

583
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: you talked to her on the phone. I did. I

584
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: called her up and we chatted about this. We had

585
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: a great time, and we talked a lot about whether

586
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: we can understand the universe and what we'd be like

587
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: to talk to aliens. And you know, I really enjoyed

588
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: her writing. Not only is it really clever and full

589
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: of new ideas I hadn't seen before, which is something

590
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: I'm always looking for in science fiction, but it's also

591
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: just beautifully written. It's like lyrical in this way. And

592
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: what was really fun is that speaking to her, she's

593
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: also very lyrical, just you know, extemporaneously. Everything she says

594
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: is sort of poetic. So it was really a pleasure

595
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: you to talk about. And so again you can find

596
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: our work in collected editions of our short stories and

597
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: the one collection is called Ambiguity Machine, that's right, and

598
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: the other one is called The Woman Who Thought She

599
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: Was a Planet. Wow, that is a great title. All right. Well,

600
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: here is Daniel's interview with science fiction author Vandana Singh.

601
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: So it's my great pleasure to introduce to our podcast

602
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: Professor Vandana Singh. Please say hello to our audience. Hi everyone,

603
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure and an honor to be here. Well,

604
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: thanks very much for joining us and for talking to

605
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: us about how you build the science of your universes.

606
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: But before we dig into the stories that we're talking

607
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: about today, we want to get to know you a

608
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: little bit better as a science fiction author. So first

609
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your background. How you

610
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: got into science fiction writing. Well, I've always been really

611
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: fascinated by the physical universe and by the non human

612
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: and you know, I was raised in a sort of

613
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: what you might call a Renaissance like atmosphere in India

614
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: where I grew up, So you know, we read literature,

615
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: We appreciated poetry, um, you know, science, learning of all

616
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: kinds was encouraged, including science, and particularly my brother and

617
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: I were really interested in the sciences, and there was

618
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: no literature that seemed to speak to all of these

619
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: things at once except for science fiction, and so I

620
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: got interested in it at an early age because it

621
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: seemed to have an unbroken kind of gaze in terms

622
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: of not worrying about disciplinary boundaries. And also the other

623
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 1: thing is that it evoked for me a sense of wonder,

624
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: which science also does, which physics also does, And in fact,

625
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: that was my primary reason for going into the sciences

626
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: because of that sense of wonder. So science fiction allowed

627
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: me to play with ideas in a way that no

628
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: other literature can. I guess that's how I ended up

629
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: writing it. But first, you took a detour to doing

630
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: actual hard science, didn't you. Yeah, yeah, I did. My

631
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: background is in theoretical particle physics. I studied the mysteries

632
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: of quarks and why nature seems to forbid quarks from

633
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: being lonely, which is otherwise known as cork confinement. And

634
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not in particle physics anymore, but I

635
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: do teach physics, and I think about physics all the time,

636
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: so that definitely informs my stories, as does my more

637
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: recent academic work on climate science and prodigog wonderful. All right, See,

638
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: have a real hardcore science background, but a long love

639
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: for science fiction. So let me ask you some questions

640
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: about sort of the science fiction universe. You're familiar, of course,

641
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: with transporters in Star Trek. My question for you is,

642
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: do you think that transporters in Star Trek actually move

643
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: you to another location? Or that they kill you, disassemble you,

644
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: and recreate you, effectively cloning you somewhere else. You know,

645
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: that's lovely question. I love that question. I think it

646
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: points to, you know, the kinds of answers we might

647
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: give to that question points to how we think about

648
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: mind and matter, and whether mind is an emergent phenomenon

649
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: due to the interactions of matter, due to the complexity

650
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: of those interactions, or whether the two are separate. And

651
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: I tend not to be a mind matter dualist, but

652
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: I have thought actually about and I'm a fan of

653
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: Star Trek, especially the next generation at Deep Space nine,

654
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: so I have thought about that question. I think that

655
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: they both possibilities, and since one of the things we

656
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: learned from physics is that anything that is possible will happen.

657
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: If not in our universe, then in another. Then I

658
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: think I think that probably both things happened. Perhaps one

659
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: thing happens in this universe and another happens in another universe.

660
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: That's a fascinating idea, never even thought of before. All Right,

661
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: But and philosophy aside. Somebody builds one. They invite you

662
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 1: to take a trip to the moon or two Mars

663
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: by stepping in this transporter. Are you willing to do it?

664
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: Would you actually step into such a transporter? No? I

665
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: don't think I would, because I mean, in part because

666
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: whenever possible for me, the journey is just as important.

667
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: So the fun of actually going in a spaceship with

668
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: outweigh the rapidity of arrival the other way. All right, Well,

669
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: while we're talking about future technology, what technology that you

670
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: see in science fiction would you most like to see

671
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: actually become reality? That's another great question, and it's a

672
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: deep question which I'm I know I won't be able

673
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 1: to do justice too, but I'll try. I think that

674
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: we cannot look at technology as being good or bad

675
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: without looking at the social context of technology, like who

676
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: benefits where does it arise from what needs? Does it satisfy?

677
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: Who gets their pockets fattened by it? And so on

678
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: and so forth. So it's a complex question. And in fact,

679
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: I think if I may posit a technology that doesn't

680
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: exist today, which is a technology that helps us appreciate

681
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: interconnections between human and human and between human and nature

682
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: in a way, that is that is actually better than

683
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: social media, because social media does some extremely harmful things.

684
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: But something that can get give us a sense of,

685
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: even imperfectly, what it's like to be, saying, orangutan in

686
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: a Southeast Asian forest, or what it's like to be

687
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: a forest, you know. So so if there was something

688
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: like that, I think I would really really enjoy seeing

689
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: that in the near future. All Right, I have a

690
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: lot more questions for Professor Saying, but first let's take

691
00:36:52,800 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: a quick break. All Right, this is Daniel, and we

692
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: are interviewing Professor seeing other fascinating short stories. So my

693
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: next question for you is what's your personal answer to

694
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: the Fermi paradox? Like, if the universe is so vast

695
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: and filled with livabole planets, why haven't aliens contacted us yet?

696
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: How do we know they haven't? Um? Right, um. And

697
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: the other is that they probably have better things to

698
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: do well. As we know, our broadcasts have been going

699
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: out into space, probably mostly since I don't know, the

700
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: end of the Second World War or something like that,

701
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: and they haven't maybe they haven't had enough time to

702
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: get far enough away that that people are listening, or

703
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: and maybe on the basis of listening to the broadcast,

704
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: the aliens don't think that they're worth contacting. Maybe we

705
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: need to improve our our TV and radio programming. But

706
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: can you imagine hearing some alien messages and decoding them

707
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: and thinking they seem boring? I don't want to reach

708
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: out to them. I mean, I'd like to talk to

709
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: aliens no matter what. They're terrible TV programming choices are right,

710
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: And I agree with you there, because you know, that's

711
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: why we have things like setting, for instance, or metting,

712
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 1: which is messaging extraterrestrial intelligence. I think that it may

713
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: have something to do with culture in one sense that

714
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: not all cultures, even on Earth, are necessarily interested in

715
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 1: reaching out to see who's out there. Maybe it's a

716
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: cultural thing. Maybe it's a question of technology as well,

717
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: because as you said, the gulfs of space are indeed

718
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: very vast and um. And then it could be that

719
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: the messages they are sending, if they are sending messages,

720
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: are just so in you know, so convoluted and so

721
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: different that we can't even tell their messages. I mean,

722
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: you know, I remember my dog giving me a look

723
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: several times to indicate as far as I could tell that,

724
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: don't you get what I'm what I'm trying to say here,

725
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: I mean, like, why are you humans so stupid? You know? So,

726
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if all we know, perhaps the messages

727
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: are all around us and we just don't know how

728
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: to how to pick them up. Maybe the aliens are

729
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: after all, very alien, but well be yeah, wonderful. Then

730
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: I'd like to turn to the topic of today's podcast,

731
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: which is a couple of the stories that you wrote. Specifically,

732
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: are we really enjoyed the two stories Sailing the Antarsa

733
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: and Parapatea? And I noticed something of a theme between

734
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: these and and tell me if I'm misreading this, but

735
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: I have sense that both of these stories have something

736
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: to do with an invisible universe around us, that there

737
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: are things about the universe that we have not yet discovered,

738
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: or that we grand realizations we could make about the

739
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: nature of the universe that challenge our assumptions and are

740
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: sort of parochial experience for hundreds or thousands of years

741
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: as humans. You said it beautifully, and I think that's

742
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: that's exactly what motivated me to write those two stories,

743
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: and in fact, that comes from what motivates me to

744
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: be in the field of the sciences, which is this

745
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: unending sense of wonder because there really is no end

746
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: to what we discover and what we learn. I think

747
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: that I think that's very true. I agree with you there,

748
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: And so do you think that there are still I mean,

749
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: in our universe and our reality, huge mysteries, remaining things

750
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: that science will crack open that will change our entire

751
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: relationship with the universe. I think they are out there,

752
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 1: and I think that that's what makes science so exciting

753
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: as a process of discovery, but also as a process

754
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: as a way of being with the universe and seeing

755
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: the universe. I'm reminded of a series of long conversations

756
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: I once had with the George suthersion of weak interactions

757
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: fame particle physicists, and also did a lot of work

758
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 1: in quantum optics. Came up with the idea of tacons,

759
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: and for him too, inhabiting the universe was simultaneously a

760
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: process of discovering things that were otherwise or earlier invisible

761
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: to us, and also a way of being where you

762
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: simply enjoyed being part of such a fascinating universe. It

763
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: gave you a sense of kind of belonging to something

764
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: as vast and wonderful as the universe we inhabit. So

765
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: I feel like there's so much out there that we

766
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: don't know, and that are schemes as they are at present,

767
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: cannot embrace because always the model is a model, after all,

768
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: it's not a substitute for the phenomenon that we are studying.

769
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: And so you know, we go in with certain conceptual structures,

770
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: and if you think of those conceptual structures as fishing

771
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: nets in the vast c of the unknown, then you

772
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: know we're going to catch some things with them, but

773
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: we're not going to catch everything with them. And so

774
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: you know, that's why I think that philosophy is also

775
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: important to science, because if we change our conceptual structures,

776
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: which the history of science tells us has always been done,

777
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: then we may catch other things. So to me, this

778
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: is endlessly fascinating because what we discover about the universe

779
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: seems to be an interplay between our conceptual structures, which

780
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: come from our our human and cultural backgrounds in part,

781
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: and between the stuff of the universe. So I think

782
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot out there, probably right around us, is

783
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: stuff that we we simply don't even can't even detect

784
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: or let alone imagine. I'm sure that future scientists will

785
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: look back at our ignorance and they will laugh at us,

786
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: clueless we were how much information, how many clues there

787
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: were swimming around us that we couldn't even imagine understanding,

788
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: You know, the way caveman and cave women looked up

789
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: at the stars and had no idea how much information

790
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 1: about the universe was being literally beamed at them. But

791
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: this is a fascinating concept in your story Parata, where

792
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: the characters are discovering that the universe is perhaps a

793
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: fascinating quantum simulation by aliens. But then you flip it

794
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: at the end you think, well, actually, maybe it's all

795
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 1: just in my head. Tell me about your thought process there. Well,

796
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: that story is such a nutty story, love, But I'm

797
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: so glad that you did, you know, especially coming from

798
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: a fellow physicist, because I wanted to have some fun

799
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: with these concepts, and you can't do that in an

800
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: academic paper, right. You have to behave when you're writing

801
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: an academic paper. But the cool thing about science fiction

802
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: is that you don't have to behave, right. So, so

803
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: I imagined, and you know, I love Rube Goldberg machines.

804
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: I love the notion of having a complicated way to

805
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 1: do something simple. And so I imagined a universe that,

806
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: you know, where there were these aliens that are somewhat clueless,

807
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: that rely on the intelligence and the imagination of various

808
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: species to help finish the construction work of the universe,

809
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: because much of it is an illusion, illusion cast by

810
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: these aliens. And and then at the end, you know,

811
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: not to give away too much of it, but at

812
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: the end, the notion is, the possibility is that we

813
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: are among those aliens, and that while we are trying

814
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: to understand the universe, we're also co constructing it. And so,

815
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: you know, I just I just wanted to have some

816
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: fun with this notion. You know, also because if you

817
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: if you look at the history of particle physics in particular,

818
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 1: there are all these fun predictions that occur as people

819
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: build their conceptual structures, right, like the omega particles and

820
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: things like that. So I wanted to think about it

821
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: as you know, aliens waiting to see. Okay, so this

822
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: scheme works. Oh so they've they've come up with that particle,

823
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: but let's bring it into being, you know, and uh,

824
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 1: you know, so I just it's just so fun in

825
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: one way. But fun is also a serious business. Um,

826
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: so it's both. Well. One thing I really enjoyed about

827
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: the stories is that they had ideas in them I

828
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: had never seen before. And that's to me what's fascinating

829
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 1: about the universe is that potentially nature has in its

830
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: ideas we haven't yet considered. And so you described earlier

831
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 1: this process of discovering nature by building up our conceptual

832
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: phishing nets and then using them to trawl. And you know,

833
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: you can imagine that's an iterative process. As our ideas shift,

834
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: we we discover new things. But my question to you

835
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: is do you think it's possible for humans to understand

836
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: the universe? Like first positive that there is a theory

837
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: of everything, an explanation for the universe that is simple

838
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: and compact. Is it possible that we are capable of

839
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: understanding it at its deepest level. What do you think

840
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: it's more likely that it's beyond our capability. That's a

841
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: great question. I love your questions this, they are so

842
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: thoughtful and so deep. Well, I think we have to

843
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: look at what we mean by understanding before we can

844
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: jump into the question. And often what we mean by

845
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: understanding is can we find an analogy that works for us,

846
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: that allows us some predictive power and some explanatory power.

847
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: And if we can find those analogies, then we say

848
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: we have understood that phenomenon. But I think that the

849
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: analogies that we usually look for are things that we

850
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: are familiar with at our microscopic scales, as we know.

851
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: And also they come also from a socio cultural impulse,

852
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: which I know as scientists is hard for us to

853
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: admit to. But I mean, I think I think that

854
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 1: it's it's true because when we even conceptualize the notion

855
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: of one grand theory that explains everything, you know, the

856
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: idea of the prime mover, you know, the origins of that,

857
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: other cultures might not might think instead of a grand

858
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: unified theory. Instead of that, they might think of an

859
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: unfolding tapestry or a weaving, So you know, our metaphors

860
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: would be different, Our analogies may be different, coming from

861
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: different backgrounds, and whether nature respects those analogies or those

862
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: particular fishing fishing nets, we don't know until we throw

863
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,479
Speaker 1: that net out into the ocean of nature, right, So

864
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 1: I think, because what we find and how we conceptualize

865
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: them relate to what our conceptual nets look like, the

866
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: process of understanding is unending, you know. I mean, just

867
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: think about the difference between Newtonian gravity and Einstein's conception

868
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: of gravity, which are so drastically different describing the same phenomenon,

869
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: and of course one has a wider domain of validity

870
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: than the other. But nevertheless, the things that we might

871
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: find casting one net versus another would be differ things,

872
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 1: and we would conceptualize them in different ways. So I

873
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: really think that firstly, there is no theory of everything.

874
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: They may instead be a tapestry in which we weave

875
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: in different threads and the threats keep changing as we

876
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: angle and look at them in different ways, and so

877
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: moving dynamic tapestry, which I think would be more useful

878
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: as a fishing net than a theory of everything, because

879
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: we know, for instance, that a theory of everything, at

880
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: the at least how I've seen back when I was

881
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: a grad student and we talked about grand unified theories,

882
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: is that we know already that they don't explain and

883
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: they cannot predict what happens on our scale in the

884
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: sense of you know, what exactly is the snow flick

885
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: going to look like? We know that, And that's because

886
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: the universe is complex, right, And complexity as a science

887
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: is a relatively new phenomenon, even though it has its

888
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: roots in pan curae in the eight hundreds, and yet

889
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: much of the development has happened in the twentieth century,

890
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 1: which is one reason why we don't understand climate change

891
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 1: as a phenomenon as well as we could have, because

892
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 1: it does not subject itself to reductionism as well as

893
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, other more idealizable systems and physics too. So

894
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 1: I think that you know, just as science has moved

895
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: through the ages and emerges with certain notions, think about

896
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: the ancient Greeks and geocentrism and heliocentrism, and then you

897
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: know Newtonian physics and and then the incomplete revolutions of

898
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: quantum physics and relativity and then complexity science. I think

899
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: that already the theory of everything is not the theory

900
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: of everything, um so, so I don't really believe that

901
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: there is one. I think there's something much more profound

902
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: than that, that hopefully we'll find our way towards. Wow,

903
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: that's a very poetic and I also wonder imagine that

904
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: we stumble our way towards that peper understanding. If we

905
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: ever do meet a race of intelligent alien physicists, they

906
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: will naturally have different ways of approaching this problem and

907
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: building up their own tap history. Do you imagine that

908
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: it would be possible to relate our thoughts and our

909
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: ideas to alien theories of everything? Do you think there's

910
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: one universal concept we all sort of fault awards, or

911
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: that we could have equivalently effective but totally conceptionally different frameworks.

912
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: I think that's a lovely thought experiment, because I think

913
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: it would be extremely difficult if the aliens were really

914
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: very different from us, to understand their conception of the universe,

915
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: and I think it would be very interesting to find out.

916
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw the movie Arrival, of Course,

917
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: which is based on Ted Chiang's amazing story. The story

918
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: of your life, and which I think it really helps

919
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: us to see how difficult it would be to communicate

920
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: with aliens in general, let alone about science, and it

921
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: would be it would be interesting to look for things

922
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: that may be universal. But again, even things that among

923
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: human cultures that we thought were universal turn out not

924
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: to be so universal. So I think it would be

925
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: very interesting, and I think it would be a long

926
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: process of building a hybrid world where the aliens and

927
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: us could understand each other, you know, because we have

928
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: our kind of bubble world of conceptual frameworks and they

929
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: have their world of conceptual frameworks. And for the two

930
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: to intersect, we would have to work at it, and

931
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: we'd have to kind of deliberately try to come up

932
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: with commonalities, ask the other for interpretation, try to interpret

933
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: the interpretations because the same thing, you know, I wonder,

934
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: you know, whether there's a universal interpretation for the Pythagorean theorem.

935
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: Maybe not, you know, triangles could mean something totally different

936
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: to some other you know, alien culled. Sure, And I

937
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: can't tell if I'm hoping to discover that our understanding

938
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: is universal or that it's totally parochial and there's a

939
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: completely different way of looking at the universe. I don't

940
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: know which would be more fun. Yeah, I know, Well,

941
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: I think I'd be a little disappointed if our understanding

942
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: was really universal, because that means that, you know, there's

943
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: less for us to learn, and so it's it's always

944
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: it's always good to be surprised, I think. So, I

945
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: think it would be fun to discover new horizons through

946
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 1: trying to look, however, imperfectly at the universe from an

947
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: alien lens. Wonderful. Well. One of the things I really

948
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: enjoyed about your stories, other than the incredible creativity, was

949
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: your portrayal of physicists in action. Way too often in

950
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: science fiction, the scientist is just there to motivate the

951
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: sort of mindless pursuit of knowledge at the expense of

952
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: everything else, you know, the Jurassic Park sort of thing.

953
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 1: And so I really appreciate your portrayal of scientists as curious,

954
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: intellectual explorers, you know, pushing forward and the boundary of

955
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 1: knowledge because of their own personal desires to understand the universe.

956
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: What do you think about the portrayal of scientists in

957
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: science fiction, and since you sit in both communities, what

958
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: do you think about the interplay between these two groups,

959
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: the science fiction authors coming up with crazy ideas not

960
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: having to behave well in papers, and then the actual

961
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: scientists trying to push forward the boundary of knowledge. It's

962
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: a very interesting interplay. I think that the portrayal of

963
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 1: scientists in popular fiction has gotten better. It's definitely better

964
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 1: in science fiction than it is in popular fiction in general,

965
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: where we still have this ridiculous notion of the scientists

966
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: as this white male guy with crazy white hair. You know,

967
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: Poul Einstein would probably be spinning in his grave, because

968
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: we know that scientists are humans, and scientists are more

969
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: complicated than that, and that they come from all kinds

970
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: of backgrounds, and also science these days, we know, especially

971
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 1: in our era, is in teams rather than the loan

972
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: scientists trying to break the boundaries of the unknown. Although

973
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: in many of my portrayals I do portrays scientists on

974
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: their own thinking about things, partly because theoretical physicists still

975
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: kind of work that way and that's my background. But

976
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 1: I think that in science fiction, at least, that interplay,

977
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: that portrayal is getting better. It's getting more diverse, partly

978
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: because the field is getting more diverse. We have a

979
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,919
Speaker 1: lot more African American writers. We have writers from all

980
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: over the world whose works are being translated or who

981
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: are writing in English and getting hurt by people around

982
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 1: the world. So the conception of a scientist is becoming

983
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: more complex, as it should be. I think that also

984
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: reflects real science. We know that in the physical sciences

985
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: there's still a massive amount of gender imbalance in many countries.

986
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: Actually in India and some other countries India and Iran.

987
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: When I looked up the figures last some year ago,

988
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 1: the numbers were much better with regard to undergraduate degrees

989
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: in physics than they were in the United States. So

990
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: but you know, it's still not reflect the demographic of

991
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: the population. And that's also true for people who are

992
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 1: underrepresented minorities in the sciences. Physical sciences are the worst

993
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: in that respect. So the more portrayals we have of

994
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: actual scientists working and you know, living complex human lives

995
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: and working on complex scientific questions from different backgrounds, bringing

996
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: their different lenses to the problem, the better it is

997
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: for all of us because the field will inevitably be

998
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: in read enriched by that diversity. I totally agree. And

999
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: how do you feel about the diversity in science fiction?

1000
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: You know, I'm very thankful that it's growing. I live

1001
00:55:55,160 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: in Massachusetts and I go regularly to a science fiction convention,

1002
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 1: or well at least semi regularly, which is focused on

1003
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: the literary aspect of science fiction called reader Con, and

1004
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 1: it's really wonderful. Many years ago, when I first started

1005
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 1: going there, and that was in the early two thousand's,

1006
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,959
Speaker 1: I was one of the few brown faces out there,

1007
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: you know, and I was one of the few women

1008
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: writing hard science fiction. And at that time it and

1009
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: even now to some extent, my work is not recognized

1010
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: as hard science fiction because my style is different and

1011
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: I bring in the poetic and philosophical and wondrous aspects

1012
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: of it. But at that time, it was a lonely

1013
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: experience going to a science fiction convention, and now it's

1014
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: very different. And I'm very grateful, in particular to African

1015
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: American writers for just really helping change science fiction from

1016
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: the inside um as well as two writers from multiple countries. Recently,

1017
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: there was an international online science fiction convention called future

1018
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: Con where you got to hear science fiction writers from

1019
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: all over the world. So people are writing in Argentina,

1020
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: they're writing and they've been writing in China for a

1021
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: very long time. They have the largest circulation science fiction

1022
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: magazine anywhere in the world in China, and then you

1023
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: know people writing from Eastern Europe, from Brazil, and it

1024
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: was really really exciting to see that diversity happening and

1025
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: to be able to be influenced by their stories as

1026
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 1: well as the stories of the canonical science fiction writers.

1027
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: So I think it can only be to the good

1028
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: to have so many different voices coming in, and particularly

1029
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: Afro futurism and indigenous futurisms and indigenous people's conceptualizations of

1030
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 1: their universe, which increasingly is contributing to our scientific understanding,

1031
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 1: which I think is very exciting. So it's a very

1032
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 1: exciting time to be a science fiction writer, for sure. Wonderful.

1033
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: I totally agree, and I really enjoy reading stories from

1034
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: all over the world in different voices, and just the

1035
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 1: way we talked about, aliens might have different ideas about physics,

1036
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: different humans have different ideas about what we might explore

1037
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: in the universe. So it's been a lot of fun

1038
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: for me as well. So thanks very much for joining

1039
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: us today. Before we let you go, do you have

1040
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: projects coming out soon that our readers can look forward to?

1041
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: I wish I had a positive answer to that. Right now,

1042
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: I'm figuring out how to teach online labs, so immediately,

1043
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: I don't have anything major brewing, but I always have

1044
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: stories kind of simmering on the back burner. Hopefully I

1045
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: will have some new novelas this year. I have a

1046
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: story coming out in the Salt Asian Book of Science

1047
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: Fiction that's coming out from Goal Lens Hatchet, India, and

1048
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: so that is something to look forward to. Well. Congratulations

1049
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: on balancing academia and science fiction and your success in

1050
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: both worlds. And thanks again very much for joining us

1051
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: on the program today. Thank you so much. It was

1052
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: a pleasure. All right, pretty cool. She had a lot

1053
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: to say, and you're right, she does sound really lyrical. Yeah,

1054
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: she's really well spoken. And as a person of color

1055
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: and a woman in a mostly male and white field,

1056
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: both physics and science fiction, I thought you had a

1057
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: lot of interesting things to say about increasing diversity in

1058
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: those communities. I didn't think I heard you talk about

1059
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: actual physics, like, did you guys also a nerd out

1060
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: and talk about the actual particle theories not just science

1061
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 1: fiction stories. No, not so much. She has a PhD

1062
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: in theoretical physics. That's her background, but recently she's actually

1063
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: shifted more to working on climate change because she thought

1064
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: that's actually more relevant for humanity. But you know, Grant

1065
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: is probably true. Yeah, I guess if you're writing science fiction,

1066
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: you kind of want your audience to be there in

1067
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: the future. That's right. It's purely selfish and cynical. I'm sure.

1068
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: All right, Well, what do you make of this idea

1069
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: of you know, scientists writing science fiction, Like, do you

1070
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: do you feel like it's another part of your brains

1071
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: or do you feel like it's the same brain that's

1072
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: coming up with these ideas? Is what do you think

1073
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: is happening inside? I think it's a harmonious combination. I

1074
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: think science takes creativity to solve a problem, you have

1075
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: to think about a new direction. When things aren't making sense,

1076
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: you're like, all right, well, I'll have to go back

1077
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: to the basic building blocks and think about what am

1078
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 1: I misunderstanding, What idea am I missing? What new perspective

1079
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: would let all this evidence fit together in a way

1080
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: that makes sense. And that's a lot of the creativity

1081
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: behind in my opinion, good science fiction, science fiction that

1082
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: has like a clever new idea in it, something we

1083
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: hadn't considered before, a new way of looking at the universe,

1084
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: or a new way the universe might actually be so

1085
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: to me, That's probably why I enjoyed both science and

1086
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: science fiction, because they have this element of like creatively

1087
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 1: exploring the universe right desperately trying to get out of

1088
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 1: this one or to make it, to understand it more.

1089
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,439
Speaker 1: Can I speak to the manager, please? Can I speak

1090
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: to the lazy aliens who are totally occlusion this and

1091
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: making it up as we go. I have a few ideas, right,

1092
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: I got some notes, I got my ideas. All right. Well,

1093
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: we hope you enjoyed that interview, and we hope you

1094
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: check out her work. Vandana Sings science fiction stories collected

1095
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: in the Ambiguity Machine and also the Woman who Thought

1096
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: she was a planet. Thanks for joining us, See you

1097
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and

1098
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: Jorge explained. The Universe is a production of I Heart Radio.

1099
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: Or more podcast from my Heart Radio, visit the I

1100
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

1101
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.