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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Tuesday, it is August fifth.

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Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Armstrong and co host Stephanie Leidecker, who heads

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Speaker 2: up Katie Studios. She is out this evening, but I

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Speaker 2: am lucky enough to be here as always with crime

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Speaker 2: analyst and star of Netflix's Emmy winning Donut with Cats,

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Speaker 2: Body Move and herself. Guess what we have tonight? We

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Speaker 2: got a stacked night of Headlive.

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Speaker 3: It wouldn't be True Crime tonight if we didn't have

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Speaker 3: a stacked night.

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Speaker 2: Of Heavy, it would not listen. We've got body language experts,

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Speaker 2: Susan Constantine. She'll be joining us. She's going to be

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Speaker 2: giving insights into Brian Coberger, Karen Reid, and honestly, if

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Speaker 2: you guys want to ask her any questions eight A

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Speaker 2: eight three one crime. She's someone we've been dying to

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Speaker 2: talk to for a while. Also, we are going to

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Speaker 2: be breaking down there's latest headlines on Shanda de Comb's

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Speaker 2: Luigi Mangio and the Epstein Case and favorite day of

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Speaker 2: the week it is talk back Tuesday. We cannot wait

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Speaker 2: to get into all of these. Sam and Adam in

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Speaker 2: the control room. They have been busy, busy bees getting

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Speaker 2: these all compiled for us. And yeah, it ranges from

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Speaker 2: topics and there's still plenty of time if you want

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Speaker 2: to leave a talk back or give us a call

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Speaker 2: again eight eight eight to three to one Crime. We're

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Speaker 2: here for the next two hours and we are going

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Speaker 2: to go to a talkback right now. Let's do it.

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Speaker 4: Hello this Gigi and I love your podcast.

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Speaker 5: I'm currently walking if I've found out of breath anyway,

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Speaker 5: I hear you. I recently watched Deadly American Marriage. Thought

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Speaker 5: it was a really well done documentary. It blows my mind.

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Speaker 5: She basically is still claiming her innocence. But what do

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Speaker 5: you think about her dad, mister FBI, and the fact

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Speaker 5: that he was involved. Why do you think he thought

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Speaker 5: that he could get away with it just because of

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Speaker 5: his background?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think he thought he could get away with

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Speaker 3: it because he did right. Yeah, I mean listen, I

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Speaker 3: think I feel pretty safe in saying that I believe

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Speaker 3: those children, and I believe that those you know, Molly

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Speaker 3: told those children to lie, and there's only run reason

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Speaker 3: to do that, and that's a cover of tracks, right,

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Speaker 3: So I'm just gonna go with that. I feel like

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Speaker 3: the first you know, stint in jail was probably correct.

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Speaker 3: They probably should have stayed there. And I think that

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Speaker 3: the dad, you know, I think that was absolutely by design.

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Speaker 3: He's credible, right, former REFREEI jan he wouldn't do anything wrong,

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Speaker 3: would he, right, But he's still a dad. He would

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Speaker 3: do anything for his daughter. So I think it's hubris,

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Speaker 3: it's arrogance. A lot of people in those positions, rightfully,

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Speaker 3: so are fairly arrogant, rightfully, so you know, they don't

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Speaker 3: get to be those in those positions for being dummies,

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Speaker 3: right And you have.

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Speaker 2: To be confident, confident, you know all of the above.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think I think it's a combination of

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Speaker 3: hubris and the fact that he knew he'd get away

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Speaker 3: with it and he did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was funny. He was funny to me when

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Speaker 2: we had the prosecutor on last night, who was so fantastic.

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Speaker 2: You know, my burning question was about the dad and

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Speaker 2: he lied absolutely, Hold on, what did he have he

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Speaker 2: had a dinner. Well, yeah, but he had an uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: relationship with the truth that there was yess saying instead

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Speaker 2: of a liar. But he said, oh, you know, we

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Speaker 2: just decided to go down there and just decided to

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Speaker 2: bring the little league back. But I don't know. I

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Speaker 2: still maintain Dad didn't know this was going to go down.

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Speaker 2: I agree with that too. I do think if you

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Speaker 2: see someone attack provoked or not. You know, I do

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Speaker 2: think that the wife, Mollie, I do think that she

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Speaker 2: evoked a big reaction and created a ruckus.

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Speaker 3: You know, I mean, any dad is going to step

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Speaker 3: in at that at that moment, right. I do think

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Speaker 3: that he lied though about his reaction. I think it

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Speaker 3: was clearly overboard. He didn't hit him over the head

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Speaker 3: just one time. I mean it was several. All those

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Speaker 3: indentations in the walls of the bat, but you know

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Speaker 3: that's not one swing, and the indentation is is near

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Speaker 3: the floor, that's hitting somebody when right on the floor.

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Speaker 2: Right literally, the you know, the saying hitting someone when

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Speaker 2: they're down right, And the fact that neither of them

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Speaker 2: had any neither the Dad or Molly had any marks

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Speaker 2: on them except for that one that Molly had on

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Speaker 2: her neck barely, but it was there. It was barely visible.

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Speaker 2: And in the documentary it was brought up that it

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Speaker 2: could have you know, if allegedly what she's saying was true,

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Speaker 2: she was being choked right, that it could have been

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Speaker 2: either the victim's finger mark or.

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Speaker 3: Her own, like prying it off right, prying her correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. So yeah, the dad, I think he thought, listen,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna stay cool, we're going to stay calm, We're

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Speaker 2: going to stick exactly to the script. And I think

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Speaker 2: he was probably very likely the mastermind of that, and

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Speaker 2: that also would add to why the victim's body was cold.

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Speaker 2: The ParaMed they waited a while. They even the paramedics

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Speaker 2: that said, hey, what time did they say this guy

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Speaker 2: went down? I think that's also when dad got the

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Speaker 2: wife to say that she stayed downstairs, never came up

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Speaker 2: and was asleep, because any human reaction would be to

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Speaker 2: have come upstairs. So I'm going to guess she probably

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Speaker 2: came up. Grandma was screaming that no one touched on

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Speaker 2: to doc. I don't know what do you think, Boddy,

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Speaker 2: do you think that she stayed down I.

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Speaker 3: Think it is possible that she stayed down there, I do.

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Speaker 3: I mean in the basement is far away from the

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Speaker 3: second floor. It's not like right above her. It's not

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean, like, it is possible. And listen,

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Speaker 3: I'm of age now and my hearing ain't that I think.

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Speaker 3: Ain't that great? You know, in my fifties now, Oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh, and you know it's my hearing just isn't

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Speaker 3: that great? So I do think it is possible that

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Speaker 3: mom did stay downstairs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So anyway, those are our thoughts. Great question, because

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Speaker 2: good question. It's hard to answer. That's a hard question

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Speaker 2: to answer. So thank you for the talk back. It's

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Speaker 2: really great.

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Speaker 3: But I've got some headlines that we should probably get into.

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Speaker 2: So guess what.

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Speaker 3: A week's long manhunt comes to an end. They caught him,

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Speaker 3: Austin Drummond, the Tennessee killer.

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Speaker 2: He thank goodness.

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Speaker 3: So he is the man accused of killing four members

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Speaker 3: of the same family and left the baby in that

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Speaker 3: driveway of the stranger's home. We've been talking about this.

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Speaker 3: You all know, hopefully you know all about it, but

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Speaker 3: if you don't, he is response. Well, they're saying he's

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Speaker 3: responsible for the death of four individuals that were found

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Speaker 3: in an infant discovered abandoned in a front yard in

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Speaker 3: Dyer County, Tennessee. Along with Austin Drummond, four other individuals

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Speaker 3: have been apprehended in relation to these crime, although no

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Speaker 3: motive has been made public yet. So Austin Drummond a

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Speaker 3: little bit of background. He was in prison for a

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Speaker 3: really long time, like thirteen fourteen years, kind of like

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Speaker 3: his his entire adult life basically, because he went in

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Speaker 3: when he was seventeen, so he's been there. He's a

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Speaker 3: member of the Vice Lords and I do a little

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Speaker 3: bit of research on them today and they're known for

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Speaker 3: drug trafficking mainly, and that might come into play here.

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Speaker 3: We don't know, you know, what the situation is, and

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Speaker 3: it would be really unfair of me to speculate at

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Speaker 3: this point, but you know, it might be related to.

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Speaker 2: The Vice Lords.

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Speaker 3: His accomplices that have been arrested, the four others, so

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Speaker 3: five people in total had been arrested. They might be

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Speaker 3: members of this Vice Lord and he's you know, giving

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Speaker 3: the marching orders. We really just don't know. So he

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Speaker 3: was captured today by US Marshals after a construction crew

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Speaker 3: spotted him darting into the woods and I watched the

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Speaker 3: video today.

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Speaker 2: Did you see the video?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: I did not, and he yes.

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Speaker 3: This construction worker that found him is so sweet. The

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Speaker 3: he was just very humble. He's like, well, I just

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Speaker 3: saw him, you know, running around, and so I called

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Speaker 3: the police and they came and they were here before

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Speaker 3: I hung up, and they were like, oh, you're a hero,

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Speaker 3: and he was like no, no, no, the police are

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Speaker 3: the heroes. He was just very, very humble, very sweet video.

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Speaker 3: So God bless him and we're so proud of him.

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Speaker 3: His name is Ricardo Contreras, and he helped bring an

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Speaker 3: end to this man hunt after reporting the sighting of

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Speaker 3: Austin Robert Rummond.

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Speaker 2: Good for you, good job for you. Yes, we're very

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Speaker 2: proud of you.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so he's been caught, and you know, now

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Speaker 3: people are kind of digging into him, right, people are

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Speaker 3: kind of digging into who is Austin Drummond. And I

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Speaker 3: think yesterday we had mentioned that his prison cell, he

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Speaker 3: had pizzas, he had potato chips, he had a stocked

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Speaker 3: shelf of non perishable items.

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Speaker 2: He had so Rock vodka. There was this idea. So

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Speaker 2: I didn't see the video you were talking about, but

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Speaker 2: I did see some Facebook photos and it was of

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Speaker 2: drum And it was a couple of months before he

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Speaker 2: was released. He looked cozy. Oh it was TV streaming alcohol,

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Speaker 2: video games and he post pizza pizza and he wrote,

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Speaker 2: Sarraq almost home living it up till I get there

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Speaker 2: right like, I'll take a sirac and some piece.

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Speaker 3: You see the surveillance video of okay, So they initially

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Speaker 3: saw him last night while we were on the air,

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Speaker 3: so we didn't get to report on it, but they

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Speaker 3: had a video of him, like on home surveillance, like

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Speaker 3: walking around.

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Speaker 2: Did you see this video? No, I missed that one

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: He's literally walking around with a rifle, just hanging out,

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Speaker 3: and he's dressed in all camouflage. He's got a backpack

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Speaker 3: on and his rifle, this long rifle, scary looking rifle,

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Speaker 3: just walking around yet out last night. Yeah, I'll send

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Speaker 3: it to you. I'll text it to you. That is creepy, scary.

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Speaker 3: This guy's just worrying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, this guy Drummond with his four accomplices.

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Speaker 2: He reminds me a little bit of that dopey dentist

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Speaker 2: in terms of embroiling all these people right after the

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Speaker 2: fact of the crime or during you know, or during

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Speaker 2: and or during the commission.

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Speaker 6: Well.

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Speaker 3: The big difference though, is that with a dope dentist,

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Speaker 3: he couldn't get anybody to work with him. But this

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Speaker 3: Austin guy, apparently he roped four others in with him,

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Speaker 3: which makes me think he has some kind of power

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Speaker 3: over them in some way, right, like some sort of

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Speaker 3: power dynamic that we don't know about yet. I'm sure

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Speaker 3: we're going to learn, but we just don't know about

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Speaker 3: it yet. So his possession of all these contraband in

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Speaker 3: the prison right because he had a phone, right, he's

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Speaker 3: making taking pictures of himself. He had pizza delivered. It's

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Speaker 3: in the takeout box.

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Speaker 2: That is the rock. The vodka that is wild.

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Speaker 3: It points to a lot of systemic failures and security,

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Speaker 3: don't you.

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Speaker 2: Write I was gonna say that's contraband? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Anyway, I mean, am I naive? I mean I listen.

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Speaker 3: I see prison videos on TikTok, and I see them

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Speaker 3: making dance videos in their cells and whatnot and showing

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Speaker 3: some of the things. And I guess I always thought

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Speaker 3: that was staged, but apparently it's not. It's very real.

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Speaker 3: I always thought it was staged.

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Speaker 2: I guess. So listen, I have one other This is

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Speaker 2: a really quick update, yes, and this is about the manhunt,

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Speaker 2: the one that is not yet closed. I'm so happy

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Speaker 2: that the Drummond one is. But this is the manhunt

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Speaker 2: that's actually intensifying, and it's for the army veteran who's

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Speaker 2: accused of fatally shooting those four people at the bar

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Speaker 2: in Montana. So listen, people are still looking for Michael

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Speaker 2: Paul Brand, so you should be on the lookout for him.

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Speaker 2: He's a former soldier. He's accused of fatally shooting four

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Speaker 2: people at the Owl Bar in Anaconda, which is a

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Speaker 2: small southwestern Montana town, and he was seen fleeing the scene.

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Speaker 2: He was bare foot, he was shirtless, and is now

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Speaker 2: believed to be armed and carrying survival gear stolen from

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Speaker 2: a second vehicle.

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Speaker 3: Oh so he broke into a car and stole survival gear.

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Speaker 3: So somebody just has survival gear in their car. How

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Speaker 3: lucky for him.

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Speaker 2: How lucky for him, or he stole it and put

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Speaker 2: it in a car for himself. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Maybe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's unfolding, So we'll keep you up to date.

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Speaker 3: We have a very special guest on the show today

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Speaker 3: that it was actually inspired by a talkback. Here to

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Speaker 3: help us break down what we can learn from body

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Speaker 3: language in some major cases is Susan Constantine. She's a

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Speaker 3: leading authority in human behavior and deception detection. She's the

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Speaker 3: president of the Human Behavior Lab, has consulted on high

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Speaker 3: profile cases like Michael Jackson and Elizabeth Holmes, and has

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Speaker 3: trained law enforcement in legal teams across the country. She's

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Speaker 3: one of the most respected experts in her field. Welcome, Susan.

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Speaker 3: We're so glad to have you.

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Speaker 7: Thank you for having me on Courtney.

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Speaker 3: What case should we talk about with Susan first, because

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Speaker 3: we have no time to waste.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Susan, we got a lot of cases to cover

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Speaker 2: with you that we want to so we'd love to

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Speaker 2: start with Brian Coberger and for just to catch anyone

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Speaker 2: up who hasn't been awake for the past while. Brian

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Speaker 2: Coberger he's a former criminal justice graduate student and he

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Speaker 2: pled guilty just last month to the murders of fatally

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Speaker 2: stabbing four University of Idaho's students to death, Kaylee Gonsalvez,

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Speaker 2: Madison Mogan, Xana and Ethan Chapin. Has happened in their

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Speaker 2: off campus rental home in Moscow, Idaho, and he is

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Speaker 2: in prison with four consecutive life sentences without parole, and

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Speaker 2: let him stay there. So, Susan, I understand that you

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Speaker 2: were part of a task force that helped law enforcement

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Speaker 2: to analyze his behavior early on. Is that right?

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Speaker 7: Well, they've got that wrong. I thought the humor they

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Speaker 7: are mentioning the BTK. So I'm on the task force

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Speaker 7: for the BTK killer. But I analyzed buying pots body

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Speaker 7: language for all of the major networks, including port TV.

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Speaker 2: Great, what can you tell us? What can you tell

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Speaker 2: us about that?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 7: I think one thing that most people are so curious

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Speaker 7: about is his overall inner I analyzed him from the

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Speaker 7: very beginning when he was being pulled over multiple times

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Speaker 7: except those driving on the highway. It's really intense, prolonged,

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Speaker 7: you know, facial affect, that stare unblinking, that kind of

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Speaker 7: predatory gaze. It was really off putting to most people.

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Speaker 7: Then trying to figure out what's going on here. And

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Speaker 7: so what I share with people is that we have

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Speaker 7: to understand a little bit about his background too, right,

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Speaker 7: so we know that he has some form of aspergers.

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Speaker 7: As writers generally have a difficult time emoting and also

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Speaker 7: reading emotions. So let's kind of shelf that to the side. Also,

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Speaker 7: he has a form of paranoia. That's where you're do

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Speaker 7: you see where his eyes are more fixated. They're very open,

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Speaker 7: they don't blink very much, and so that in a

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Speaker 7: sense can be part of the predatory gaze because they're

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Speaker 7: highly concentrating. The lack of facial affect is that detachment,

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Speaker 7: that emotional detachment. He doesn't show the normal morphine of real,

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Speaker 7: you know, true emotions. He's got this very flax still

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Speaker 7: on expression, this cold, icy appearance, which is what we

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Speaker 7: can we look at for people that are more like

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Speaker 7: sociopaths and psychopaths, and he meets all of the criteria.

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Speaker 3: And then some like all of them, Yeah, all of them.

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Speaker 2: So, Susan, I don't know if you extended sort of

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Speaker 2: your analysis to the father in the car and what

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Speaker 2: Susan's referring to is that infamous cross country drive that

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Speaker 2: Brian Koberger took with his father from Washington State to

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Speaker 2: Pennsylvania and they were pulled over twice, as Susan mentioned,

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Speaker 2: did you look at the father's reaction. If so, did

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Speaker 2: you have any takeaways from him?

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Speaker 7: Sure. I mean when we're looking at the completely different right,

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Speaker 7: I mean he's leaning his head back. You see his

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Speaker 7: kind of mouth open up in surprise, like why are

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Speaker 7: you you know, why are you pulling this over? He

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Speaker 7: has a little bit of kind of an abnormal affect

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Speaker 7: of south so that you know, it doesn't the apple

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Speaker 7: doesn't fall far from the tree, but he doesn't show

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Speaker 7: this really coldness. What's interesting is that he immediately brought

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Speaker 7: up about the murders that had happened, and he had

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Speaker 7: said that there were some college students that were shot,

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Speaker 7: and then Brian Coburger jumps in and goes, well, you

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Speaker 7: don't know that, so he corrected his father. But when

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Speaker 7: we see Brian Kolberger in that situation another time when

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Speaker 7: he was pulled over himself by a female police officer,

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Speaker 7: and he's always so quick to correct right, to reprimand

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Speaker 7: to test the waters, and he's always got to be

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Speaker 7: the smartest one in the room. So I thought that

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Speaker 7: was really interesting that he leaned forward while his father

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Speaker 7: was trying to answer the police officer when they're pulled over.

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Speaker 7: But again he had that very stiff, frozen expression, eyes

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Speaker 7: wide open, no affect. And then when he said, you

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Speaker 7: don't know that that was a clue. Why would he

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Speaker 7: say that if you didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: This is true crime.

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Speaker 3: Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm body Moven and I'm here with

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Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong and body language expert Susan Constantine. We're talking

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Speaker 3: about what we can learn from body language of different

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Speaker 3: alleged convicted killers and what we want to hear from you.

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Speaker 3: Give us a call at eighty eight thirty one crime

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Speaker 3: or hit us on the talk back seas in the

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Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app Susan, how did you interpret his reactions to

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Speaker 3: the victims' families in court during sentencing when they were

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Speaker 3: getting their victim impact statement.

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Speaker 7: Well, he certainly did move. He stayed very stiff and

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Speaker 7: frozen on expressionless. But there are some little micro leakages

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Speaker 7: that did appear that if you weren't really trained in

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Speaker 7: reading the micro leakages, you would have missed it. So

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Speaker 7: there were moments where when he became agitated, especially of

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Speaker 7: the sister who was she just actually I called it

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Speaker 7: just a mic drop, right, she just came right out,

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Speaker 7: I'm confident and powerful, and you could see these little

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Speaker 7: rapid eye blinks.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 7: Yes, this is like where he's getting punched, right, So

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Speaker 7: he doesn't show it in the facial expressions, but you

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Speaker 7: can see it in the cognitive load with his eye blinking.

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Speaker 7: So every time he was taking a hit, you could

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Speaker 7: see that flutter flu want I want.

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Speaker 3: People listening, I want people listening to this to go

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Speaker 3: and rewatch that and listen to what Susan's saying. Because

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Speaker 3: he even I, the amateur, you know, idiot, was like,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, his eyes are blinking, like because he

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Speaker 3: never blinks, and he was constantly blinking, and I was like, that's.

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Speaker 2: Got to be something.

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Speaker 3: So go watch that and then and keep Susan's words

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Speaker 3: in your head when you do so, it's very interesting. Wow.

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Speaker 3: So those are like micro Those are like micro leakages you.

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Speaker 7: Called those, Yeah, they're micro leakages. These are what I'm

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Speaker 7: looking for, are these uncontrolled, unconscious movements. So in other words,

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Speaker 7: he hasn't had time to hear what to process what

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Speaker 7: was said and then adjust his behavior. Okay, there's this

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Speaker 7: immediate this is unconscious. So when he has these comments

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Speaker 7: that were made that were very strong, there was also

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Speaker 7: a little micro head nods like almost as if he

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Speaker 7: was agreeing with her. Yeah, and that's you know, and

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Speaker 7: it's really interesting because I'm wondering based on his psychopathy,

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Speaker 7: because I think he's actually a test model to understand

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Speaker 7: what's going on that I almost think that there's a

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Speaker 7: form of that. He actually enjoyed that, so he was

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Speaker 7: acknowledging it. It was like almost a confirmation he did

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Speaker 7: that he was successful in doing what he did. And

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Speaker 7: the cognitive low free time that she hit a sensitive point.

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Speaker 7: That's when you start to see the flutter. So that's

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Speaker 7: what we call cognitive low.

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Speaker 2: And Susan, I'm not sure. Because there were so many

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Speaker 2: victim statements because these four children were so beloved. There

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Speaker 2: was an ant who she had sort of a different

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Speaker 2: purview than the other folks, and she said to the killer, Brian,

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Speaker 2: I want you to know I forgive you, and if

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Speaker 2: you ever want to speak to someone with no judgment,

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Speaker 2: I'm here from you. And similar to body, I as

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Speaker 2: a total amateur human looking at it, that was the

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Speaker 2: first time he actually looked like you would almost I

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Speaker 2: guess how you'd expect a human to react like I

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Speaker 2: noticed him sort of nod his head. Did you have

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Speaker 2: any observations on his reaction to that? Ant?

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Speaker 7: Sure? Remember when we talked about just those little microls

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Speaker 7: are so tiny that again you'd miss them. You would

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Speaker 7: see his facial muscles around his eyes and especially around

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Speaker 7: his eyes, around his mouth and his upper forehead. Those

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Speaker 7: are where he holds a lot of tension, and you'll

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Speaker 7: see those muscles slightly release, just ever so little, and

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Speaker 7: that's what softened his overall aspect just a little bit.

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Speaker 7: But that's about as far as Brian Coburger can go,

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Speaker 7: because he doesn't feel emotion like natural humans do. He

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Speaker 7: just doesn't. He's vacant and void of any of that.

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Speaker 7: And he's actually said that and some of his blogs

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Speaker 7: and so forth. He just doesn't feel it. He doesn't

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Speaker 7: feel emotion. He doesn't feel like with other people. And

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Speaker 7: that's true, but you couple that with the aspergers, which

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Speaker 7: also doesn't read emotions well and doesn't emote the correct emotions,

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Speaker 7: and the psychopathy is literally he is a cocktail of

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Speaker 7: all kinds of psychological disorders and it's all in one clump,

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Speaker 7: and you can see it play out in real life

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Speaker 7: in his body language.

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Speaker 3: Wow, So do you see this is kind of off

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Speaker 3: topic a little bit, but do you see like this

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Speaker 3: needs to be studied in my opinion, like his behavior.

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Speaker 7: Don't you think, Oh, I absolutely positively do.

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Speaker 8: I think he is.

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Speaker 7: I really do. In fact, I think he's like a

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Speaker 7: doctor aman, you know, clinic patient. He really needs to

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Speaker 7: understand what is firing in his brain, you know, what's

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Speaker 7: lighting up, what's in amigula, what's happening in the prefrontal

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Speaker 7: frontal lobe. We need to learn about this new psychopathy

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Speaker 7: that we're seeing a lot of, and that to me

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Speaker 7: is really becoming very disturbing because we're seeing more and

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Speaker 7: more and more of this, and it's like, what is

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Speaker 7: it that they're opening the door to watch? What are

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Speaker 7: they opening the door to see and to study that

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Speaker 7: it's creating this fascination as a detachment, emotional detachment of

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Speaker 7: seeing violent behaviors over and over again to where they

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Speaker 7: lose that natural sense of empathy, and then you continue

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Speaker 7: to do it for so long you don't have anymore.

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Speaker 7: So they can do what they've done with absolutely no guilt,

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Speaker 7: no remorse, and no emotion at all.

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Speaker 3: I'm fascinated. So please stand by more with body language

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Speaker 3: expert Susan Constantine, we're going to be talking about Luigi

435
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 3: Mandion and Karen Reid and what you should know to

436
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 3: protect yourself. And in the second hour we're talking about

437
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 3: the judge's latest decision in Diddy's request for.

438
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: Cold Later in the show, we're going to be talking

439
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: about the controversial death row execution. It took place today

440
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 2: in Tennessee. And of course we will be responding to

441
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: all of your talkbacks for Talkback Tuesday. Again, there's still

442
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: time to leave us one tonight or give us a

443
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 2: call eight at eight three to one. Crime. Right now,

444
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 2: we're coming back with body language experts Susan Constantine. So listen,

445
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: she's the real deal. She is a leading authority in

446
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: human behavior and deception detection. She is someone you did

447
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: not want there when you've broken curfew, I would imagine

448
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: and listen. She's got over twenty years of experience, one

449
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 2: of the absolute most respected experts in the field, and

450
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: we're getting back into it. Body What is the next

451
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: case that you want to ask Susan about.

452
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: I want to talk about Luigi So Luigi Mangione. He's

453
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 3: a twenty six year old Ivy League graduate. He's been

454
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 3: charged with the December fourth, twenty twenty four killing of

455
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 3: United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson outside of a Manhattan hotel.

456
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 3: He has pled not guilty on all counts, including he's

457
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 3: being charged by the New York State and those charges

458
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: carry potential life imprisonment and the federal charges that carry

459
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: the possibility of the death penalty. Mandion has garnered what

460
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 3: like substantial public support, raising over a million dollars in

461
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: crowdfunded legal contributions, and has been lauded as kind of

462
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 3: like a hero who stood up against greed of the

463
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 3: healthcare industry.

464
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 2: So do you know about Luigi Season?

465
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 7: Yes, I do know about Louiegan.

466
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 8: That's when he was.

467
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 7: They didn't know who he was even prior to finding

468
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 7: out his identity. When I was shown a video, I

469
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 7: can't remember what TV station it was on that I

470
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 7: was on, maybe it was Fox. And when I reviewed

471
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 7: the video, I said, wait a minute. This guy is

472
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 7: not six foot tall as the police had previously set

473
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 7: as a profile, and they didn't really know too much

474
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 7: about other than that, And I said, listen, this guy

475
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 7: is not six foot tall. He's under six foot tall.

476
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 7: He's slender built. The other photograph that was given, which

477
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 7: is where he was in the coffee shop and he

478
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 7: was smiling he'sy gregarious. I said, this is a guy

479
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 7: that people like. He can walk right up to him.

480
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 7: He's very he has got a great personality. I'm sure

481
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 7: he's very well liked. He's probably got lots of friends.

482
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 7: And he said, this is not your typical killer. This

483
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 7: guy is a good looking guy. I said, And with

484
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 7: his bushy eyebrows and deep set eyes and chisel jawline

485
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 7: and square chin, he's Italian and so yeah, and so

486
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 7: it wasn't. But just maybe a few hours after that,

487
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 7: it was announced that the shooter name was Luigi Mangioi.

488
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 7: And I said, see, I told you he was Italian.

489
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 7: But you know, and I have to give you a

490
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 7: little caveat I'm Italian, just spent two weeks in it.

491
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 7: Like so I was looking at those big booshy eyebrows

492
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 7: and deep set eyes, and Jim, we'll face for two weeks.

493
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: Right and hopefully eating good pizza along the way.

494
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 4: Right.

495
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 3: Yes, Wow, So you you helped identify him. Basically you

496
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: told them, no, you're not looking for the right the right.

497
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 7: Well, you know how you can tell when he was

498
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 7: walking down the street, what do we see? We have

499
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 7: cars parked, you know, we have a building we have windows,

500
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 7: and then you measure the height. I did some calculation

501
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 7: on what is the height of that specific car, and

502
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 7: then measured just where his head was just above it.

503
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 7: So I said, this guy is like five foot ten, wow,

504
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 7: And sure enough that's what he was, and then you

505
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 7: could tell what is his I do a lot of work,

506
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 7: In fact, I've got like a couple of cases I'm

507
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 7: working on right now to try to identify a person's

508
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 7: by their gate, their movement, their stride and all that.

509
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 7: We all have specific behavioral characteristics that are our own.

510
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 7: Like if your husband or your partner saw you walking

511
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 7: down the street and go, oh, that's so and so

512
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 7: you know that's my wife. It's because you know they're

513
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 7: their movement and their stride, the way they moved their

514
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 7: hands in their arms. So all of these things that

515
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 7: were able signature behavioral characteristics. So when you're looking for

516
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 7: a suspect, these are things to point out and point

517
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 7: them out so that when somebody's watching a news sit

518
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 7: these are the signatures you should be looking at to

519
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 7: see if you know someone liked.

520
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: That, right.

521
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: I remember the Delphi case the bridge guy. The gate

522
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 3: was a massive sticking point, and then in Sacramento there

523
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 3: was a guy shooting homeless people and he had a

524
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: strange gait and that came into play as well. Yes,

525
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: that's really interesting that you can recognize all those things

526
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: that with body language.

527
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: I never thought of that.

528
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 7: Well, there was a killer that was in Tampa that

529
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 7: was doing something very similar to people walked right up

530
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 7: in a bang just killed them. And that was another

531
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 7: one that I analyzed, provided the profile and the characteristics,

532
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 7: and based on those characteristics they were able to call

533
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 7: or called in and said that this is a person

534
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 7: that looked like some of it with Adam McDonald's just

535
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 7: like Luis DEIMANNGIONI sure enough it was him, and that

536
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 7: goes behavior will six theture what got him off the street.

537
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 7: And he was a young serial murderer and based on

538
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 7: a gate movement, he was flipping his keys around in

539
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 7: his hands as he was walking down the street so nonchalantly.

540
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 7: All of those things are important to identify because they're different,

541
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 7: they're unique to them.

542
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: Interesting. It sounds almost like fingerprints. And I can remember

543
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: distinctly in college I needed glasses and didn't wear them,

544
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: but I would know from far away I could pick

545
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: my friends out just by watching how they walked. So interesting.

546
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: I guess we all have a little of that that

547
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: we're aware of subconsciously. Listen, if you have as many

548
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: questions as we do for Susan, give us a call.

549
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: We are at eighty eight three to one crime. We

550
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: are talking about the importance of body language and Susan

551
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: is the real deal expert. I feel like some jures

552
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: may possibly be more sympathetic to Mangio And is that

553
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: something you've mentioned.

554
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 7: Sure, yes, So that's one of the things that we're

555
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 7: looking at, is during nullification, because there is a large

556
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 7: community of people, just like in the Karen Reid case,

557
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 7: that almost they connect with her. But you know, in

558
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,239
Speaker 7: other words, with Karen Reid, it was you know, they

559
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 7: don't trust police. With Luigimiandoni, it's corporate America, and there's

560
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 7: a lot of people that tend to follow and believe

561
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 7: like he does. They see him as more some of them,

562
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 7: not all, but they they see him as someone that

563
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 7: is speaking on their behalf. So we're concerned about during

564
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 7: nullification because meaning that even though all the evidence would

565
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 7: point to his guilt, that just because they felt that

566
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 7: what he did was not wrong, they can nullify their

567
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 7: own vote and he could walk away free.

568
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: Right, What does the seething look and what is tell

569
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 3: you something that you kind of also noticed in Coburger?

570
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: What does that mean?

571
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 7: Seating? Okay, the seating Brian. All right, let's back up,

572
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 7: because we didn't see it in Brian Coberger. But I

573
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 7: was talking about that before an attack, the victim will

574
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 7: see these behavioral signatures of what we call imminent threat. Okay,

575
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 7: they will be it's imminent that they are going to

576
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 7: be attacked and killed. Okay, So when we saw me

577
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 7: and geone, we saw the lack, the loss of emotional control.

578
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 7: Right when when you see their face flush, you saw

579
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 7: the all of his teeth, they were all showing.

580
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: It was like.

581
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 7: A you know, a bulldog or something, and it was

582
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 7: just in a rage sense. That's when you see the

583
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 7: loss of emotional control. The furrowed eyebrows, the eyebrows come down,

584
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 7: the eyes become very fixated. And then the even though

585
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 7: the mouth the teeth are showing, the lips are very tight.

586
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 7: That is the attack mode. That's the imminent attack. Just

587
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 7: prior to that, it is starting to morph before they

588
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 7: lose the emotional control. So when we see coburger. We

589
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 7: don't see him in the same place. What I was

590
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 7: stating to one of their producers prior to the show

591
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 7: is that before he attacked the girls, that's what they

592
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 7: would have seen. That is what they would have seen

593
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 7: because prior to that, there is a rehearsal part, a

594
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 7: planning part, and then the execution part. So there is

595
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 7: a none of these killings that happened just out of

596
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 7: the blue. There is a process. If you understand a

597
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 7: lot about serial killers and a lot of doctor Burgess's work,

598
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 7: you'll see how they morph into it. There's a process

599
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 7: is to where they get there, and part of their

600
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 7: process is the excitement and the fascination to getting to

601
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 7: that point. So they've played it over and over and

602
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 7: over again in their mind. That's why they don't show

603
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 7: a lot of that level of motion right before, because

604
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 7: they're calculated. So it's right before it when they start

605
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 7: to lose the emotional control that you actually see that seeding,

606
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 7: that anger, that that detachment, that animal like type of behavior.

607
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 2: Gotcha, gotcha.

608
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's we need we need to watch out

609
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 3: for that. We need to watch out for that gaze.

610
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, that gaze where it's just you know, when

611
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 7: people would describe a person, they'll say their eyes were

612
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 7: like black as coal, like there wasn't anybody there. That's scary. Yeah,

613
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 7: you know, And that's what's so frightening is what those

614
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 7: four you know, college students saw, or what a person

615
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 7: sees right before that. I mean, it just is you

616
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 7: don't even want to even feel what they felt then

617
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 7: because it's so horrifying, but that's what they experience.

618
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: Wow's interesting? Now, is this seizing something that we would

619
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: see in our own lives, So just in personal lives.

620
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: So taking gross criminals and by gross I mean you know,

621
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: very big criminals off the table for a second, are

622
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: there dangerous signs we should sort of look out for

623
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: in our own life?

624
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 7: Sure, when we're looking at those dangerous behavioral signatures, whether

625
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 7: it depends only we're not this not a killer, could

626
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 7: be someone that's been a sexual assault, or someone that's

627
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,439
Speaker 7: trying to the predator that's trying to get close to you,

628
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 7: to get to your children or to you to you know,

629
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 7: violate you. You know, there's that grooming process that very charismad,

630
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 7: They very likable. In fact, I'm writing a book and

631
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 7: I wrote it as you and I I never met

632
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 7: a murderer I didn't like. And it's because some of

633
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 7: them can really turn on the charm big time. But

634
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 7: the minute you go against or speak against, or are

635
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 7: not participating in whatever it is, they will change. And

636
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 7: New York second on.

637
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: You, Susan, before you have to go, and we have

638
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: a really short segment. We've only got a few minutes.

639
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 3: What can you quickly tell us about your observations about

640
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 3: Karen Reid? And for those who don't know Karen Reid,

641
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: she's a forty four year old financial analyst and former professor.

642
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 3: She was tried for killing her Boston police officer boyfriend

643
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 3: John O'Keefe, but she was recently acquitted. And you know,

644
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: she had some she had kind of like a cold

645
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 3: fish demeanor in court.

646
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, she got a lot of criticism. What can you

647
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: tell us about that.

648
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 7: Susan, Well, she did, she was She had a very

649
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 7: cold demeanor that between the smirks, the eye rolls, and

650
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 7: the contempt facial expressions and also the talking back and

651
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 7: forth of this attorney, a lot of that in the

652
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 7: flipping the hair back, a lot of smongness that she showed.

653
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 7: But I think that what happened over time, just like

654
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 7: the Casey anthonydraw and I saddle all the way through

655
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 7: that one and reported on it, is that when you're

656
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 7: looking at someone for a long time, they start to

657
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 7: really air off on you, and meaning that they started

658
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 7: to connect with her, especially one of the female jurors said,

659
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 7: the smugness and the dislike that she had, she actually

660
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 7: liked about her after a while and found that her

661
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 7: confidence was more intoxicating, right, That was more convincing to

662
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 7: her that she was innocent than guilty. So it's interesting

663
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 7: how jurors interpret what we see. You know, it's not

664
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 7: always what we think is the heroal analysts, because it

665
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 7: really depends on that twelve panel jury and what they

666
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 7: see and it could be totally different.

667
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 2: That is so interesting. And I have a question for you, Susan.

668
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: Do you take into account where someone is from? And

669
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: I asked, because I'm from the Northeast most of the

670
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: people that I know the best are and her asfect

671
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: seemed very quote normal to me, like she So how

672
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: does that come into play?

673
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 7: Well, because those that are like her will resonate with

674
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 7: her because it'll be familiar if it was unfamiliar.

675
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 4: If you know that.

676
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 7: Let's if it's a New Jersey or Boston me that

677
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 7: kind of rough, gross, kind of demeanor. You know, you

678
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 7: take that and you's down south, it's going to be different, right,

679
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 7: So you know, when you're selecting a jury, that's really

680
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 7: important because we look at those demographic factors. What are

681
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 7: the similar demographics of what we're looking for the world

682
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 7: best that will be less dangerous to our client, be

683
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 7: unbiased and give her, you know, the benefit of the doubts.

684
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 7: So people that are like you tend to vote more

685
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 7: like you.

686
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

687
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 3: So she was being tried like in Georgia or like

688
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: Louisiana or even California, there might have been a different

689
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 3: response from the jury because they might have perceived her

690
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 3: kind of like I do. I'm from the West Coast

691
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 3: and I perceived her as pretty cold, but you know,

692
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 3: being frying Boston, I might be like, she's.

693
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: Just a normal chick. Yeah, exactly.

694
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a

695
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 3: ton of sense. And thank god she didn't get tried

696
00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 3: in California then.

697
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 2: That would have been that would have been good. Well, Susan,

698
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: we're hoping very much that you will come back, particularly

699
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: I can't wait to talk about the book. Can you

700
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: just give us the title and where we're sure at

701
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: the end of time. What's the title?

702
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's going to be coming out penning out of

703
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 7: twenty twenty six. It's called How to Spot a Liar

704
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 7: in Seven Seconds or Less.

705
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: I need that book immediately. Yeah, absolutely, well, listen, Susan,

706
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: We thank you very much for joining us. It has

707
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: been an absolute pleasure and fascinating. You've shed light on

708
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: so many things. And if you want to know more

709
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: about Susan or to contact her, her website is Susan Constantine.

710
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: Just how it sounds s U s A N C

711
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: O N S T A N T I n E

712
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: dot com and keep it here True Crime Tonight.

713
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,959
Speaker 3: Later it's talk Back Tuesday, you guys. I am so

714
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 3: excited for Talkback Tuesday. I cannot wait to hear all

715
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: the questions and all the comments that you guys have.

716
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 3: We have not listened to them prior to so it's

717
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 3: going to be literally talk back Roulette. We're going to

718
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: have to be on our game Courtney. All right, all right, right,

719
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: so let's hear talk back now. Let's get us warmed up.

720
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 8: Okay, fair, Hi, Courtney, Stephanie and Body is Ainsley calling

721
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 8: again from Canada.

722
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 7: Ainsley, I was just wondering if.

723
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 9: You guys could share what your podcast recommendations are. I

724
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 9: know we talked a lot about what's on the streaming services,

725
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 9: but I'd love to hear what you ladies are listening to.

726
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 9: Thanks and looking forward to listening to you tomorrow.

727
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: Bye, Thank you, Ainsley.

728
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: I want to go to Canada, dude. Listen.

729
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 3: Canada is probably the best place ever. Like I've been

730
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 3: there many times. I tried to leave and go to Canada.

731
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: I actually did. They were like, no, I love Canada

732
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: and I love Canadians. I do well as of this show,

733
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 3: so too do I.

734
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: I couldn't have said that.

735
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 3: I have a special place in my heart, and I

736
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: think it's because of the Lucas stuff and all the

737
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: stuff I went through in Canada. And plus I was

738
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: born in Detroit. I could literally look out my window

739
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: and see Canada across the Detroit River winds Canada, and

740
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 3: we would go over there all the time.

741
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: It's a great country, like Sarah Pale and how she

742
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: could see Alaska. Yes, it's literally like that podcast. What

743
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: podcasts are you listening to?

744
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: Courtney.

745
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: Well, I Betrayal and yeah, that is excellent, so good, compelling, surprising, heartfelt.

746
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: It's really really great and we're actually we'll be talking

747
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: more about it. We'll leave it there, but Betrayal. This

748
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 2: is not a new one, but S Town is maybe

749
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: my favorite podcast I've ever listened to. I'd call it

750
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 2: true crime. Adjay statement, Yeah, but it's beautiful and not

751
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 2: in a happy way. It's s Town excellent. And I'll

752
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: throw one more out there, a true crime one. And

753
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: this is also reaching back. I was kind of what

754
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 2: really resonated me. It's called a Killing on the Cape

755
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 2: and I used to set my watch. This was literally

756
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: years ago, and I forget when it dropped, but I

757
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 2: would be like, oh my god, it's gonna come out

758
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 2: right now. And the storytelling is unbelievable. The crime is

759
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 2: you're guessing the whole time and it's really really well told.

760
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: So those and then for a new one. One more

761
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: is My Friend Daisy, which you should check it out.

762
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: So I got.

763
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 3: Well, mine are not true crime, well, they might be

764
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 3: true crime adjacent, but the ones I've been listening to

765
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: a lot are It's called Breadcrumbs by Trace Labs and

766
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 3: it's all about like open source investigations, and you know,

767
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 3: that's something that I'm super into, so I guess it's

768
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 3: kind of true crime adjacent. But they talk about a

769
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 3: lot of like the ocent tools, the open source investigation tools,

770
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: to use the terminology, how to pivot correctly in your investigations,

771
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 3: and how to you know, critically think about things and

772
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 3: you know, access data points that you really have to

773
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 3: work hard to access.

774
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: It's a really, really, really great podcast. I really like it.

775
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 3: And going along with that, I also really like the

776
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 3: Cyber Sluice Show, and he has a really good community.

777
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: It's really great. He's got like a really great discord

778
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: or YouTube.

779
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 3: Channel, and I really like that one a lot, and

780
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 3: it talks a lot about the same topics, you know,

781
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 3: researching things on your own and how not to get

782
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 3: caught up in the noise, and it's it's very good

783
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 3: and I like them both. The other one I really

784
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: like is my friend Christian Marciano. She has a podcast

785
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 3: called Worth the Weight, and it's going through her weight

786
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: loss journey with her girlfriend, her friend, and they talk about,

787
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 3: you know, their relationships and how men perceive them losing weight.

788
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 2: It's very good and check out interesting, Okay, like it's.

789
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 3: All right, what a great question though it's surprising though,

790
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 3: like the ones, Oh the other one, Oh my god,

791
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 3: I'm so silly, the whole massacre.

792
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 2: Of course, of course I listened to that. I'm on it.

793
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: I gotta listen. Indeed, I happened to know the voice

794
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: of that and the insights you bring. So there will

795
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: be much more. There will be season three. I just

796
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: did a rick.

797
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 3: I just did a session, uh for season three, and

798
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 3: we were on for like three hours.

799
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: Listen, there's a lot, there's a lot to talk about.

800
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 2: So that is in process as we as we speak.

801
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 3: So now we're going to cover some of today's top

802
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 3: true crime headlines, right Courtney, what have you been working on?

803
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 10: Oh?

804
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: All right, So in Tennessee, a man has been executed.

805
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: He was an inmate named Byron Black, and claims were

806
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 2: ignored that his implanted defibrillator could cause unnecessary and prolonged

807
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 2: pain and duration of the execution. He was executed for

808
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 2: a shooting back in nineteen eighty eight, and it was brutal.

809
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 2: It was for the death of his girlfriend and her

810
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: two daughters, and that happened while he was actually on

811
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: work release. But bottom line, this man did suffer multiple

812
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: serious health issues. He did have that implanted defibrillator, and

813
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 2: it led to a contentious debate over whether it should

814
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: be deactivated before his execution, which I feel like, regardless

815
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 2: of where you fall on the spectrum of you know,

816
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: lethal injection or death penalty in general, I don't know.

817
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: I think we can all agree that we can take

818
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: out something that's going to add the even potentially add

819
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: the extra pain. So there was a lot of back

820
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: and forth, but that is where it ended. So that's that.

821
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do have feelings about that. I do think

822
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 3: it's you know, I don't like when the governments or

823
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: you know, like somebody in power, let's say, has the

824
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: you know ability to you know, inflict torture, you know,

825
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 3: and I think that if it could have been torture, is.

826
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: Just remove it. I don't understand.

827
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: I guess I just don't understand well. In other news,

828
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 3: a judge has granted Luigi Mangione a laptop to access

829
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 3: in jail so he can prepare for his pending trial. Luigimangione,

830
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 3: of course, he has been accused of murdering health United

831
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 3: Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson in December of last year. He

832
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: has been held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn

833
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 3: and he awaits trial. The prosecutors alleged that the killing

834
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 3: was politically motivated, citing a manifesto found on Mangion after

835
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 3: his rest days later. It was like five days later

836
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania. So this federal judge approved Mangione's request for

837
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 3: access to his government prepared laptop y in jail. He

838
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 3: can use the laptop every single day, eight o'clock to

839
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 3: four pm, seven days a week. The device is restricted

840
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: from the Internet, wireless networks, and printing, and it only

841
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 3: allows him access to his case related to materials. And

842
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 3: it's my understanding that it's like seven terabytes worth of

843
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 3: materials that he'll have access to.

844
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 2: It's pretty interesting.

845
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,439
Speaker 3: So it's basically all his all his discovery. And yeah,

846
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 3: you know so, and this is apparently to get him

847
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 3: prepared for his trial coming up.

848
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, that makes a lot more sense, you know,

849
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: to have to have a device that your counsel has

850
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 2: requested to assist in his own defense.

851
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 3: Right, And I know it's not really the norm though,

852
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,919
Speaker 3: It's not really the norm for inmates to be given

853
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 3: this privilege. I mean, this is a privilege, but it's

854
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 3: not unheard of either. Courts are illegally obligated to ensure

855
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 3: the defendants can participate meaningfully in their own defense, and

856
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: this is going to help him do that.

857
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, this government approved or whatever the

858
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: verbage was, laptop seems a lot more reasonable than pizza

859
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,399
Speaker 2: delivery and Sarah, Yeah, you know.

860
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 3: I unbelievable. I still can't believe that guy. I hope, listen,

861
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 3: I hope Austin Drummond does not get the same privileges

862
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:09,479
Speaker 3: that he had.

863
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 9: Oh.

864
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: I like to imagine a future where he does not. Yeah,

865
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: that is my hope, and that is I'm going to

866
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: just put it out put it out there as a wish. Listen,

867
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: if you have any opinions on what you think prisoners

868
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,280
Speaker 2: should or should not. Should prisoners have pizza, Maybe I'm wrong,

869
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 2: pizza and soak.

870
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 3: It wasn't pizza though, no, I was delivery.

871
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: It was not to journo. Listen, if you have an opinion,

872
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 2: give us a call eight eight eight to three one

873
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 2: crime or send us a talkback and we will shortly

874
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: be getting to multiple talkbacks after the headlines. But I've

875
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 2: got another one for you body, and I got to

876
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 2: hand it to Diddy's legal team. The it was ten

877
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: one point. I'm not sure where we are, but the

878
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: judge has denied him bail for the fifth time, so

879
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: his legal team has applied five times. So give it

880
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 2: to them for persistence. And this is all ahead of

881
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 2: his October third sentencing hearing, of course, did he was convicted.

882
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 2: This was last month and it was on kind of

883
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: the smallest charges that he had been charged with. It

884
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: was charge of transportation to a gauge in prostitution. And

885
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 2: he has been held for coming up on a year.

886
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: It'll be a year very soon, and that's at the

887
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 2: Brooklyn Metropolitan Detention Center with Luigi. That's right, Yeah, that's right.

888
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: But so they I guess the denials keep coming, as do.

889
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: I wonder if they'll ask again. I don't know, but

890
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: the judge has been clear and cited clear and convincing

891
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 2: evidence that Combs posed a risk of flight or danger

892
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 2: to the community.

893
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 3: And so we learned yesterday that victim number three, Combs's

894
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 3: ex girlfriend again, she was identified as victim number three.

895
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 3: She wrote a letter supporting bail. So apparently this letter

896
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 3: didn't have any sway with the judge at all.

897
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: Right, Well, I think it was also counterbalanced by previous

898
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 2: letters that we know from other victims. Although this woman

899
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: did not testify victim number three because again at the

900
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: time of the trial, she was quote unreachable by the attorneys.

901
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,919
Speaker 2: But I think the judge stayed with what they said

902
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: at the beginning, which was, you know that he is

903
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: a danger and that the victims felt concerned.

904
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 3: Well, I have another piece of news, this first time.

905
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 3: This one's kind of wild, and we don't have a

906
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 3: lot of time, but I'm going to go very quickly. Yeah, Bill,

907
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 3: this I was not expecting this. Bill and Hillary Clinton

908
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 3: have reportedly been subpoenaed by the House Oversight Committee in

909
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,240
Speaker 3: connection to the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.

910
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: What so, Yeah, so there.

911
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: The House Oversight Committee is investigating connections to Jeffrey Epstein

912
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 3: and Glaine Maxwell, focusing on you know, potential involvement of

913
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 3: prominent political and law enforcement figures. And as part of

914
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 3: this probe, former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of

915
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 3: State Hillary Clinton have been subpoena to give depositions. So

916
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 3: the committee chair, Rep. James Comer from Kentucky he's a

917
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 3: Republican out of Kentucky. He's leaving the subpoenas. Other people

918
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 3: that have been subpoena include former FBI director James Comy

919
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 3: and Robert Mueller.

920
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 2: Interesting, right, it's interesting, And I got to say, I'm

921
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 2: surprised by your surprise. I think anyone would want to

922
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,879
Speaker 2: depose the Clintons. You think, yes, of course I do

923
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: on opposing you know, I think any Democrats would would

924
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: like the opportunity to depose Republicans and so to get

925
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: them in. And we know that Bill Clinton has been

926
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 2: tied to Epstein. So right, and we are getting back

927
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 2: into it. We can't say it enough. It is our

928
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 2: absolute favorite part of the week. It is talkback Tuesday.

929
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: Literally excited for real.

930
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 3: Yes, And I know Sam and Adam are two in

931
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 3: the control room because they're going to keep us on

932
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 3: Johnny on the spot here.

933
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: Right, Well, they're a little drunk with power because they're

934
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 2: they're literally dishing out, you know, the questions we get.

935
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 3: Adam is literally giving me the evil I don't.

936
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, how can we stump the hosts? I think

937
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,919
Speaker 2: we call it talkback Tuesday. They call it stump the hosts. Right,

938
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: and by the way, when we say talkbacks, we're also

939
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: including voicemails, yes, and dms as well, because we read them,

940
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 2: we listen to them, we use them all and you know,

941
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: it really does help us shape the show. We've said

942
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: that before, but it is there have been multiple like

943
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 2: earlier this evening when we had our body language expert

944
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 2: on that was because of a talkbacker. So you know,

945
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 2: thank you. Okay, let's get into our first us. Wait.

946
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 3: Hold on, I'm I'm kind of scared. I'm not gonna lie.

947
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 3: Adam literally is giving me the evil eye.

948
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 2: I'm a little a little bit, but I'm excited. Totally

949
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: normal talk back. It's just the same as all the others.

950
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, you say, so let's hear it.

951
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 4: Hello, this is Steve from Greater New Orleans area. You

952
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 4: all were talking tonight. This past showed about the uh,

953
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 4: I forget how you phrased it, the dark tours like

954
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 4: the Jim Jones and so forth. But when you think

955
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 4: about one, I've been on the Jack the Ripper tours.

956
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 4: You don't get much more gruesome than that. And look,

957
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 4: well over a century people have been going to it's

958
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 4: maybe one hundred and fifty yar I's get when they

959
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 4: exactly happened, but people have been going paying good money

960
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 4: left and right for those tours, so it's shifts. I

961
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 4: don't know if it's a deep factor night, but it's

962
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 4: part of human nature to want to somehow receive those scenes. Anyway,

963
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 4: thank you. It was fantastic. Oh wait, it's just really awesome.

964
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 3: I think he's probably listening on voodoo, right Voodoo. We

965
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 3: learned that from our friend Joseph Scott Morgan.

966
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

967
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I went on that Jack the ripertre Thank you

968
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 3: for the talk back. By the way, I went on

969
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 3: that Jack the repertorire when I went to cron Con

970
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 3: UK twenty twenty one, and it was fantastic. I was

971
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 3: exhausted by the end of it because it's a lot

972
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 3: of walking, but it is fantastic and I think he's

973
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 3: right there is you know, there is part of human

974
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 3: nature that wants to kind of explore the dark and

975
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 3: ceedy with with the you know, the ability to remain safe. Right, Like,

976
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 3: I know I'm on a tour and I know grewsome

977
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 3: things happened here and you know at this particular spot,

978
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 3: let's say, on the street. But I know that I'm

979
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 3: completely safe right now. And I think there's it's very

980
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 3: attractive to a lot of people, I think, and including

981
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 3: me absolutely.

982
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, Steve, thank you so much. I'd love a

983
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: New Orleans accent so much, it really but you know,

984
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 2: I think you're exactly right. And this is peripheral. But

985
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: I worked for many years. I did about eighty episodes

986
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 2: of a par and normal show and what it was called,

987
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: it was called My Ghost Story ran on the Biography channel. Anyway.

988
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 2: It was people and and a lot of a lot

989
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 2: of the stories it was people's personal stories, and a

990
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 2: lot of it had to do with going to you know,

991
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 2: the Lizzie Borden House or a specific in addition to

992
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 2: stuff that happened in their own homes. But there was

993
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 2: it's kind of the crossover in terms of the history.

994
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 2: In terms of what are the dark stories of this,

995
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 2: it was Getty's Bird. Oh, you know, war fields and stuff,

996
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 2: and it really it combines stuff and I think body

997
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 2: like you said, of also knowing you're safe while getting

998
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 2: too it's yeah, yeah, it's it's humanatu.

999
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 3: It's like it's like going to something dangerous without actually

1000
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 3: being in danger, you know, kind of like how people

1001
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 3: go to those parachuting buildings where they can simulate skydiving.

1002
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 3: They're not really in danger, but they get the feeling

1003
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,879
Speaker 3: of the skydiving, you know what I mean. Like it's

1004
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 3: kind of like, listen, it's kind of like that in

1005
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 3: my head. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can walk down

1006
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 3: the streets that Jack the Ripper was hunting people and

1007
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 3: still be safe.

1008
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Yeah?

1009
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know' that's my attraction at least. It's

1010
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 3: it's like kind of like living on the edge but

1011
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 3: still being an old grandma and not having to actually

1012
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 3: really be in danger. I'm all about that. That's like me,

1013
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Anyway, thank you see so much.

1014
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 2: For the talkback. What we are next? What's next? Light

1015
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 2: us up? Adam.

1016
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 11: Hi guys, I really enjoyed your coverage last night of

1017
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 11: the Canon Barbie Killers. I just have a question on

1018
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 11: whether or not you think that Paul Bernardo and Carla

1019
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 11: Hamolco would have been capable of committing these crimes on

1020
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 11: their own if they wouldn't have met one another.

1021
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 10: I don't know.

1022
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 11: I'm really curious to see what you guys think. Thank you.

1023
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow, So I got a lot of feedback about

1024
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 3: the canon Barbie, especially from Courtney. She was like, man,

1025
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 3: that was rough to listen to. It's a rough story.

1026
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 3: Would they have been so Paul Bernardo was in fact

1027
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 3: the Scarsboro rapist prior to meeting Carla. So yes, I

1028
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 3: think Paul was already you know, experimenting in you know,

1029
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,959
Speaker 3: violent and deviant behavior and possibly would have continued down

1030
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 3: that road and escalated to murder without Carla. But I

1031
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 3: don't know if Carla would have. I think Carla basically

1032
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 3: my opinion of Carla is that she sort of morphed

1033
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 3: into whoever Paul.

1034
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: Wanted her to be.

1035
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? I don't think Carla.

1036
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 3: I think she's a psychopath one hundred percent. But I

1037
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 3: think she's a psychopath because she's just gonna pairrot whoever

1038
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 3: she's with.

1039
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 2: And do you think, because I believe you had said

1040
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 2: that in some of the videos that she was directing him,

1041
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 2: directing him, Yeah, yeah, yep.

1042
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 3: In some of the videos, she's teasing the sus you know,

1043
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 3: the victims, she's making fun of them, she's directing Paul

1044
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 3: on what to do next, you know, telling them to

1045
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: shut up, making sure the blindfolds are tight.

1046
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 2: You know things like that.

1047
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 3: But again I think I listen, I'm not a psychologist,

1048
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 3: all right, but.

1049
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 2: I had to read.

1050
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 3: Oh I didn't have to, but in part as part

1051
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 3: of what I was working on, I learned a lot

1052
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 3: about her and I got the impression and I would

1053
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 3: actually kind of like to talk to somebody about this

1054
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 3: at one point that she was just really parroting whoever

1055
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 3: she's with. So she was if she's right now, she's

1056
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 3: with her lawyer's brother, and I think she's, you know,

1057
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 3: parroting being a professional parent. I don't think I think

1058
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 3: she's a psychopath underneath, though she just parrots who's ever

1059
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 3: she's with, all right, by herself, though, I don't think

1060
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 3: she would have done anything unless she hooked up with

1061
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 3: another psycho. That's just my opinion. I'm not a professionalist,

1062
00:58:57,560 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 3: and don't listen to.

1063
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 2: Me, no, but listen the question and was asking opinions.

1064
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, it is if you want to

1065
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: join us eighty eight to three to one crime. This

1066
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 2: is true crime tonight. And we are in the middle

1067
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 2: of talk Back Tuesday, and let's just pop right into

1068
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 2: another one at NEUS.

1069
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 10: Hey, guys, so I know you've been talking about a

1070
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 10: bunch of man hunts recently, and I was just wondering

1071
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 10: why you think there's been an increase in these violent fenders.

1072
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 9: Thank you.

1073
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 2: It's tough. I don't know the answer, but we have

1074
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 2: been thinking about it, you know, the crime because man hunts.

1075
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,479
Speaker 2: I don't know if people are choosing more sort of

1076
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 2: secluded areas. Although Mangione, who was last year, that was

1077
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 2: you know, it doesn't he was on the run for

1078
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 2: five days. He was on the run for five days,

1079
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 2: and that was in the most one of the more

1080
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: congested places on planet Earth. But a lot of these

1081
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 2: other ones are in rural places. I mean, one commonality

1082
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 2: that I've seen, not in all, but in several of

1083
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 2: these multitude is better and status. And it honestly makes

1084
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: me wonder about if people there's an uptick in decreased

1085
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 2: mental health care, specifically for veterans. So I don't know,

1086
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 2: it's something we want to look into, because I agree

1087
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 2: it seems more prevalent.

1088
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 3: It does seem more prevalent. And you know, there's also

1089
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 3: like the we just had the Maan hunt in New

1090
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 3: Orleans for all the prisoners that escape us. So you know,

1091
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 3: there's those kinds of man hunts too, right, and then

1092
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 3: there was like that Daniello cavocante out of Pennsylvania that

1093
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 3: went on for several weeks as well. You know, I

1094
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 3: think I think there's always been man hunts. I think

1095
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 3: we're living in a different world right now where there's

1096
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 3: a twenty four hour news cycle and this is very

1097
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 3: popular coverage to cover, right So, like you have social

1098
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 3: media influencers covering these things. Now you have of course,

1099
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 3: you know, mass media, you know, uh covering this and

1100
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 3: on a bigger scale. So I think we're just hearing

1101
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 3: about do you know what I mean? Like, I feel

1102
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 3: like I feel like it's just more popular because people

1103
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 3: are riveted by these stories, right So, and I also,

1104
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 3: in combination with what Courtney said too though about them

1105
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 3: the ones that we've been following recently kind of been

1106
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 3: happening happening in like really isolated areas so that people

1107
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 3: have a chance to get away. And I think that

1108
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 3: has a big part in it too. But that was

1109
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 3: a really good question and really kind of hard to answer.

1110
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but thank you, thank you keep us thinking. Definitely

1111
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: stuffed the host on that one. Yeah, what have we

1112
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 2: got next.

1113
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 12: Out of them?

1114
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 13: I listened to the Kenon Barbie episode you just had

1115
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 13: on How does the videotapes not knock out the plea

1116
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 13: I thought in lea deals, if you're found guilty or

1117
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 13: getting bad information, that is no longer.

1118
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 6: Thanks.

1119
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 3: So, yeah, that was a good question, he asked. It

1120
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 3: was kind of hard to hear. He asked, why Carla

1121
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 3: was able to, you know, still plea. You know, the

1122
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 3: videos were found of her torturing these victims and participating

1123
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 3: in the murders of Paul Bernardo. Answers really simple, so,

1124
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 3: but it's infuriating. The tapes changed everything, right, But they

1125
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 3: were found after the plea deal had been finalized and

1126
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 3: was legally binding, and she had already testified against Paul Bernardo.

1127
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 3: It's almost like double jeopardy at that point. Now this

1128
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 3: is Canada, it's a completely different country. The same thing applies.

1129
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 3: She couldn't be tried again, you know what I mean.

1130
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 3: She couldn't be tried again. She already confessed, she got

1131
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 3: a manslaughter charge, she got a sentence, everything was already done,

1132
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 3: it was legally binding. And now the country was completely

1133
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 3: outraged by this. They called it's the deal with the Devil,

1134
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 3: I think is what they called it. But because it

1135
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 3: was legally binding, there's something they could do. Like the

1136
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 3: prosecutors were like they were upset too, but again they

1137
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 3: couldn't charge her. She already pled couldn't do it that

1138
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 3: like Brian Coberger right now could say, yeah, I did it,

1139
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 3: and it was you know, but there's something you can do.

1140
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 3: He's already been sentenced in charge and everything you can do.

1141
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 2: It's tough. I think that's one of those cases where

1142
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 2: the exception almost proves the rule, because my knee jerk is,

1143
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 2: let's take it away, and you know, if you find

1144
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 2: anything after a plea, but then nothing would be binding,

1145
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 2: ever exactly, and it would just be chaotic.

1146
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 3: She fulfilled the details of her plea agreement her. The

1147
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 3: details were that she was to testify against Paul Bernardo,

1148
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 3: and she had already doubled that.

1149
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 2: So she fulfilled her right.

1150
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 3: And all right, Adam, let's get back into it. It's

1151
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 3: talk back Tuesday. Light us up.

1152
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 11: Hi.

1153
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:42,919
Speaker 10: I just wanted to add, when you guys were talking

1154
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 10: about the Jonestown massacre, I feel like something that doesn't

1155
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 10: get talked about enough with that whole case is that

1156
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 10: seventy I've seen say that seventy to eighty percent of

1157
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 10: its members were African Americans who were drawn to Jim

1158
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 10: Jones because he preached a racially integrated utopia. Yeah, and

1159
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 10: that's why they joined, which I just feel like is

1160
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 10: such an important detail and just really adds to the

1161
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 10: tragedy of the whole situation.

1162
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 3: That's a really good point. You know, Jim Jones promoted

1163
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 3: racial integration, and he was a socialist and the people.

1164
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 3: That's why it's called the People's Temple, right, it's oh right, yeah, Okay,

1165
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 3: So a large number of African Americans were at Jonestown

1166
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 3: because you know, they reached out and attracted black individuals,

1167
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 3: particularly in urban areas like San Francisco and Los Angeles, right,

1168
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 3: because that's where they were based out of. They were

1169
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 3: drawn in by themes of like racial equality, social justice,

1170
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 3: and community support living in a community, and hard to

1171
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 3: argue with those, especially in this time. You know, you

1172
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 3: have to remember this is like the sixties and seventies.

1173
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 3: You know, the Civil rights movement was you know, hard

1174
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 3: and fast at this time, and you have this really

1175
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 3: charismatic leader preaching about racial equality and how this church

1176
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 3: this is racially integrated and everybody's equal and it's you know,

1177
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: obviously going to be very attractive to people looking for acceptance,

1178
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 3: right yeah, and.

1179
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 2: A little humanity and God on top of it. All.

1180
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 3: Right, so it's going to be very appealing. And you know,

1181
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 3: Jim Jones on the surface right sounds Listen, this is

1182
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 3: probably a cult I would be in, right, Like you know,

1183
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 3: Stephanie always jokes like, oh, I probably this is probably

1184
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 3: what I'd be like looking at, you know, like, oh, okay,

1185
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 3: you know, because I'm into all these things, these themes.

1186
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 3: I'm into the you know, the themes of community living

1187
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,919
Speaker 3: and racial equality and you know, gay rights and things

1188
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 3: like that, and these are all things that Jim Jones

1189
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 3: was like saying he was about, So yeah, this is

1190
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 3: something I would be like, oh yeah, sign me up.

1191
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 2: But then ultimately, because it does that sounds wonderful those tenants,

1192
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 2: but then ultimately it obviously turns dark. There's almost nine

1193
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 2: hundred people there. But along the way, Jones he was

1194
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 2: exploiting fear, he articularly in the black and minority communities

1195
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 2: and saying like, oh it was it sort of if

1196
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 2: you don't join forces with us, that you'll be rounds

1197
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 2: it up by government concentration camps. If you leave the cult. Oh,

1198
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 2: that's in a little bit of research, because after we talked,

1199
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 2: I did a little bit of research. And yeah, as

1200
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 2: a way, and that's also part of almost any cult

1201
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 2: is there needs to be reasons to stay, and they're

1202
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 2: usually fear based.

1203
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 3: I did not know that. I think that's what actually,

1204
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 3: now that you bring it up. You know, there's a

1205
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 3: documentary on Netflix and I think it's called Jonestown The

1206
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 3: People's Temple or something like that, and I think in

1207
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 3: that documentary, now that you mention it, I think they

1208
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 3: say that they they left the States to go down there,

1209
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 3: because I think Jim Jones was starting to say they're

1210
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 3: coming after us. Because yeah, no, I think you're right now.

1211
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 3: It's sparking all these memories now, but yeah, he used

1212
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 3: this message of racial utopia basically manipulate everybody.

1213
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 11: Yep.

1214
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 3: Right, very interesting and that's a really good talk back

1215
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 3: and something that we absolutely should have mentioned. It's just,

1216
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 3: you know, we only have a few minutes to talk

1217
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 3: about these things, but thank you for the talkback.

1218
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 2: What do we have next?

1219
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 14: Hi, It's Cynthia from Canada.

1220
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 10: Car.

1221
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 14: I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on Gielenne Maxwell's

1222
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 14: attorneys attempting to quash the release of the grand jury

1223
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,920
Speaker 14: uh transcripts that may be released if there's an agreement

1224
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 14: or that the Justice Department pushes to have them released. Thanks,

1225
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 14: have a good night.

1226
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 3: The transcripts the grand jury of Hurrican See, I didn't

1227
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 3: know that, Cynthia are teaching me same so Glaine Maxwell's

1228
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 3: grand jury indictment transcripts. They're attempting to quash the release

1229
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 3: of that. Why would they be released?

1230
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 2: Grand jury? I'm yeah, Cynthia, I Cindy, I have to

1231
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 2: call us, honey, Yeah, you got you gottapology is exactly

1232
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 2: what you're talking about. But I think think I'm gonna

1233
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 2: punt because I would like to be informed to answer

1234
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 2: this tomorrow, because I can't imagine it's hard for me

1235
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 2: to imagine a universe where there say, anyone is saying

1236
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 2: release the grand jury transcripts. I mean, they are held

1237
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 2: so secretive. So we will answer tomorrow. But I think

1238
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 2: it's really interesting, strange.

1239
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 15: I will definitely look into it more. I just pulled

1240
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 15: up a little bit.

1241
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 2: We cannot you know, what is there anything? You know?

1242
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 15: All I hear see is prosecutors have filed emotion in

1243
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,600
Speaker 15: Southern District of New York to unseal grand jury transcripts

1244
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 15: of the Maxwell sex trafficking investigation, arguing it's in the

1245
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 15: interest of the public transparency. So you really something there

1246
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 15: about it?

1247
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, so that.

1248
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 3: The prosecutors are asking for it to be unsealed and

1249
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 3: the defense is saying.

1250
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,719
Speaker 15: Uh uh, that seems to be the case.

1251
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 3: I can't imagine, you know, she's still in prison now

1252
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 3: she goes out or something, or I just can't imagine

1253
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 3: that they'll do that.

1254
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 15: Yeah, I cannot see that either.

1255
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:08,520
Speaker 2: But given the at this point worldwide, that's strudiny so interesting.

1256
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 2: We'll see if we can come with more, you know,

1257
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 2: a little bit more facts and knowledge tomorrow. But yeah,

1258
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 2: till then, thank you, Cynthia.

1259
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 3: Until then, keep it right here on True Crime Tonight.

1260
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 3: We're talking true crime all the time. I'm body Move

1261
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 3: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong. Give us a call

1262
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 3: eight at eight thirty one crime or send us a talkback.

1263
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 3: We're doing talkback Tuesday right now. Adam is hitting us

1264
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 3: with all the talkbacks. What do you got for us next, Adam?

1265
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 12: Hey, lady Stephanie from Ohio, just a quick comment on

1266
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 12: the dark tourism discussion. I just wanted to say, for

1267
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 12: me personally, it depends on if history, if it's something

1268
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 12: that we've moved past from, or if it's something that

1269
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 12: is still occurring. Because with Jeffrey Dahmer, we're still having

1270
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:53,680
Speaker 12: serial killers, We're still having these types of murders. But

1271
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 12: when it comes to for example, the Holocaust is something

1272
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 12: we've learned from and moved on from.

1273
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 2: Love to hear your intake. Thanks, Oh have we though?

1274
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,879
Speaker 2: Have we learned from it? Yeah? Yeah, I mean there

1275
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:11,440
Speaker 2: have been. I had mentioned going to the Museum of Tolerance,

1276
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 2: which is in Los Angeles and highlights the atrocities of

1277
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 2: the Holocaust, and it also does put a spotlight on

1278
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 2: other genocides. So I wish we'd learned more as humanity. Yeah,

1279
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:32,519
Speaker 2: genocides go sadly go on and are going on. Yeah.

1280
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 3: I definitely see where she's saying though, Like for me,

1281
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:40,599
Speaker 3: it's if is the victims like immediate family is still around.

1282
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 3: And for what she's saying though, is that you know,

1283
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 3: serial killers are still like an endemic part of society.

1284
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 3: They're still affecting us today, and so you know it's

1285
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:52,360
Speaker 3: probably not appropriate to go.

1286
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 2: To those things.

1287
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 3: But like, let's say there was like a polio museum, right,

1288
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 3: obviously we've moved on from polio. Everyone's got back scenes.

1289
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 3: You know that there's people in India right now giving

1290
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 3: vaccines to polio to kids. Like it's something that we've

1291
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 3: kind of eradicated, and so that's something that you know,

1292
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 3: we could probably do. And I definitely see what she's

1293
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 3: coming from. From my perspective, I kind of do the

1294
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,720
Speaker 3: same thing. But for me, it's if the family of

1295
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 3: the victim, the immediate family the victims are still alive, Like,

1296
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 3: for instance, did Jack the Ripper. Nobody the immediate family

1297
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 3: Jack the Ripper's victims are no longer alive. So I

1298
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:32,919
Speaker 3: felt very comfortable going on that tour.

1299
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 15: Just playing playing Devil's Advocate. Would would you go to

1300
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 15: uh Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gracie tour? I mean

1301
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 15: those are you know, those are more recent than something

1302
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 15: I don't think.

1303
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 3: I don't think I would. No, I say I don't

1304
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 3: think I would. I would have. I wouldn't enjoy myself.

1305
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 3: I would feel very guilty, so I probably wouldn't go.

1306
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 9: Now.

1307
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 15: Yeah, I'm kind of.

1308
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll be too busy at Chernobyl. Yeah, I really

1309
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 2: want to go.

1310
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:01,800
Speaker 6: I know.

1311
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:04,720
Speaker 2: By the way, So first of all, I thank you

1312
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 2: for the talk back, and you know, I think what

1313
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 2: you said it's interesting. We all have lines. Like my

1314
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 2: line kept sliding all around when we were talking with

1315
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan and I was like, well, so it's interesting.

1316
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:20,799
Speaker 2: I think it's you know, our own it's individual ethical,

1317
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 2: moral thing. But ps body, when you said a polio museum.

1318
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1319
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,440
Speaker 2: Well I was so curious. I going to that museum

1320
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 2: in the National Museum of American History and our very

1321
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 2: own Washington, d C. There is an exhibition and a

1322
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 2: collection whatever happened to polio? Are you serious? Yes? There is? Wow.

1323
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:46,719
Speaker 2: So anyway, Yeah, it's a big world. There's always there's

1324
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 2: you know, so there is that. Anyway. Do you want

1325
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:52,760
Speaker 2: to do another talk pic? Yeah, let's do it. Let's

1326
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 2: do it.

1327
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 6: Hey, ladies, I have a question. I watched the documentary

1328
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:02,759
Speaker 6: Deadly American Marriage HM and was just really blown away

1329
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:05,680
Speaker 6: by it. What are your opinions on the documentary? I

1330
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,840
Speaker 6: really don't know what to think. I'm not even sure

1331
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 6: what the truth is. After watching that documentary, what do

1332
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 6: you think on that.

1333
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 2: Put us on the spot? Yeah, I think it was

1334
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 2: really well done. I do think that Mollie, who was

1335
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 2: participating in her husband's you know, being beaten to death

1336
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 2: by a baseball bat with her and her father, I

1337
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 2: think she really did have problems. According to people who

1338
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 2: are in the documentary, she did say bald face lies,

1339
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,720
Speaker 2: like a reality that everyone else was living in. Was

1340
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 2: that she was brought in and met the kids and

1341
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 2: her future husband now deceased as the au pair, and

1342
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 2: then she spun this crazy story that she was best

1343
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 2: friends with the dead woman that she never met. That

1344
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 2: is deeply problematic to me, like there is something wrong backwards.

1345
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 2: I also thought that the way she spoke about her

1346
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 2: will not adopted kids, which is probably why this man died,

1347
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 2: that just the way she was speaking about them after

1348
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 2: the fact, it just seemed very fake.

1349
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 3: She was victim blaming, you think, yeah, right, Like she

1350
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 3: was victim blaming and saying, you know that he was

1351
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 3: really a bad guy with a really horrible temper and

1352
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 3: abusive and you know, made the kids lie. And for me,

1353
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,719
Speaker 3: I believe the kids. I believe the kids. I believe

1354
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 3: his children. And his children tell us that Mollie told

1355
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 3: them to lie and that if they told the truth,

1356
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 3: they would be taken away from her and.

1357
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 2: Their little kids.

1358
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:46,559
Speaker 3: This is the only mother they've ever known, right, Like

1359
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 3: they were so young when their real mother passed away.

1360
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 3: This is really the only mother they've ever known. And

1361
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 3: of course they're gonna lie, right anyway, I believe the kids,

1362
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 3: and that's really all I can say about that.

1363
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 2: As a reminder, if you have to any part of

1364
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 2: the show, you can always catch the podcast. And we

1365
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 2: want to hear with you, So reach out to us

1366
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 2: on socials at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and

1367
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 2: Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And we are

1368
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:18,719
Speaker 2: wrapping up talk Back Tuesday, our favorite sort of hour

1369
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 2: of the week because it is with you, And let's

1370
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 2: go to a talk back now, Adam, what you got Hi?

1371
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 8: I am a first time caller, but I absolutely love

1372
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 8: this True Crime Tonight and I am calling and regarding

1373
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:41,280
Speaker 8: some titles for the documentary The Watch Club. So some

1374
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:47,560
Speaker 8: suggestions that I have are truth, Real Society, Unscripted Perspectives,

1375
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 8: True Story Circle, what my documented minds?

1376
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 2: Oh?

1377
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:58,799
Speaker 8: Real talk really and sorry?

1378
01:15:58,880 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 2: I love it?

1379
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:04,639
Speaker 3: Doc What was the documenting times? What was the one

1380
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 3: she said?

1381
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 15: Documented mind?

1382
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 2: I like that one, honestly, she said at the beginning,

1383
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:15,639
Speaker 2: said a name for the watch club. I'm like, oh,

1384
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:16,720
Speaker 2: that it is.

1385
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, And listen, I know we've been kind of teasing

1386
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 3: this and whatnot, but you know, we've had some personnel out,

1387
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 3: and so I don't want to start this without Stephanie.

1388
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 3: And she was coming back very very very very very

1389
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:32,719
Speaker 3: very soon, and so I've just kind of been waiting

1390
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:34,640
Speaker 3: for her and I miss you very much. And I

1391
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 3: think we also want to jump into Son of Sam

1392
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 3: with that. What do you guys think about that? It's

1393
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 3: out on Netflix, the David Berkowits capes. I think we could.

1394
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 3: I love the story of the Son. I don't love

1395
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:46,800
Speaker 3: Son of Sam, but I like the story of Son

1396
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:48,280
Speaker 3: of Sam, and I like how the Son of Sam

1397
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 3: laws were implemented because of him, right, And I think

1398
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 3: I think I kind of want to start covering that

1399
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 3: case too, and that you know, we'll fold right into

1400
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:58,280
Speaker 3: the show. Look at actually kind of looking forward to it.

1401
01:16:58,280 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 3: I'm pointing at Taha right now saying.

1402
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:02,759
Speaker 15: Oh, I'm jotting it down as you said that. Actually

1403
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 15: I'm also fascinated by so.

1404
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a it's a fascinating story. And the whole

1405
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:09,640
Speaker 3: the whole like area, the Tri State area in New

1406
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 3: York was like shut down this whole summer. And it

1407
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:16,719
Speaker 3: was a sweltering summer with brownouts and they were hot,

1408
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:19,600
Speaker 3: and people were scared and were having to sleep with

1409
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 3: their windows closed and it's sweltering with these brownouts and

1410
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 3: it was just a really interesting time in this nation.

1411
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 2: I might try and get my mom on the show.

1412
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 2: It would be way past her bedtime, but yeah, because

1413
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 2: she was in Queen's at the time. She was Weregnant

1414
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 2: at the time that summer, and she said, yeah, with

1415
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 2: all the brown outs and I mean, son is Sam,

1416
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 2: it was it was serious business. It was you know,

1417
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 2: just someone clicked through it. It was a pressure cooker.

1418
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 3: Literally, and these poor families are their kids are sweating

1419
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,759
Speaker 3: in their bedrooms and they can't open the windows because

1420
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 3: the Boogeyman's out there literally, right. Yeah, so this summer

1421
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 3: of chaos and it it's very interesting and I really

1422
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 3: want to watch a documentary and talk about it with

1423
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,559
Speaker 3: you guys, So please don't give up on me in

1424
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:08,800
Speaker 3: this watch club because it is happening.

1425
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 2: Watch club. Gosh, yeah, you guys are brilliant. So we're

1426
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 2: adding all these titles to the list and listen, Boddy,

1427
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 2: how fun was this to have everyone hanging out with

1428
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:25,280
Speaker 2: us tonight? Yeah, tomorrow, good news pop culture expert Doran

1429
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 2: oh Fear Hey yeah, so he will be with us.

1430
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:32,160
Speaker 2: He's going to be breaking down the latest. Oh, we'll

1431
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 2: be getting into the truecom topics of the day, the

1432
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:39,720
Speaker 2: headlines of the day, and also with Doran, we're going

1433
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 2: to get into post malone, stalker and the unfolding Blake

1434
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 2: Lively saga. And we leave you with that and can't

1435
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:52,840
Speaker 2: wait to speak with you tomorrow. Good night, True Nightbody