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Speaker 1: Polly Murray is the legal trailblazer you've probably never heard of,

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Speaker 1: a civil rights activist and a women's rights activist whose

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Speaker 1: work was the foundation for landmark Supreme Court cases. Her

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Speaker 1: life consisted of so many firsts, among them California's first

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Speaker 1: black Deputy Attorney General in nineteen forty five, the first

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Speaker 1: black person to earn a doctorate of jurisprudence at Yale

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Speaker 1: Law School in nineteen sixty five, and the first black

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Speaker 1: woman to be ordained an episcopal priest in nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: So why is a woman who was at the forefront

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Speaker 1: of the modern civil rights and women's rights movements so

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Speaker 1: little known, so little acknowledged. A new biography may help

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Speaker 1: put Murray into the history books. Jane Crowe The Life

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Speaker 1: of Polly Murray. The author Rosalind Rosenberg, who is a

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Speaker 1: professor of history and Merita at Barnard College, joins us.

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Speaker 1: Rosalind Murray faced blatant racism and sexism throughout her life.

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Speaker 1: What drove her? I think a lot of things. The

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Speaker 1: first was that she was born into a family that

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Speaker 1: was part of the long civil rights movement, going back

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Speaker 1: to decades before the Civil War. So she was raised

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Speaker 1: with a very strong sense of her place in history

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Speaker 1: and a strong sense that racism and sexism were actually

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Speaker 1: getting worse in her youth. The teens when she was

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Speaker 1: a young child, were the native of Jim Crow in

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Speaker 1: the South. But she knew that during the Civil War

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Speaker 1: and afterwards that amendments had been added to the Constitution

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Speaker 1: that made those Jim Crow laws unconstitutional. So from a

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Speaker 1: very early age she had the sense that there was

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Speaker 1: a basis on which to write the injustices that were

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Speaker 1: experienced by African Americans, and especially African American women, of

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Speaker 1: whom she was one. But there was another reason, and

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Speaker 1: that was the secret that she wrestled with all of

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Speaker 1: her life, and that was the firm conviction from early

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Speaker 1: childhood that she was a boy. And this was a

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Speaker 1: convictions that lutinely got her into difficulties because no one

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Speaker 1: else would accept that she was inwardly mail and the

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Speaker 1: rejection and frustration that she experienced in that very personal struggle,

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Speaker 1: I'm convinced became displaced into these other areas in which

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Speaker 1: she could actually accomplish gains for civil rights and for

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Speaker 1: women's rights in particular. She seemed to be ahead of

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Speaker 1: her time, yet she never garnered the credit that others did.

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Speaker 1: For example, she was arrested in nineteen forty for refusing

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Speaker 1: to move to the back of the bus in Virginia,

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Speaker 1: fifteen years before Rosa Parks ignited a bus boycott in

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Speaker 1: Alabama for doing the same thing. Was she just too

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Speaker 1: far ahead of her time? Well, that certainly was one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that she wasn't well known. There were

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Speaker 1: other pioneers, they are Rustin James Farmer, who were doing

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Speaker 1: similar things at the same time. But when people fight

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Speaker 1: against in just this individually, it's very difficult to have

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Speaker 1: an impact and certainly to be remembered. So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until the civil rights movement gained momentum that it was

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Speaker 1: possible to gain recognition. But Murray, unlike Rustin, who became

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Speaker 1: a principal organizer of the March on Washington in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty three, was not as well known because she tended

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Speaker 1: to work behind the scenes, and some of her most

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Speaker 1: influential work was done in writing. So she influenced Third

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Speaker 1: Good Marshal, for instance, and provided the framework for the

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Speaker 1: successful argument in Brown versus Board of Education, and she

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Speaker 1: did the same for Ruth Bader Ginsburg in the case

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one, the first case to get to

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court Read the read in which the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court accepted the argument that gender was analogous to raise

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Speaker 1: and therefore protected under the Fourteenth Amendment. She wrote a

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Speaker 1: book on States laws on segregation at Justice Thurgood Marshall

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Speaker 1: when he was the executive director of the n double

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Speaker 1: a CP Legal Defense and Education Fund, called the Bible

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Speaker 1: of Civil Rights litigators. Tell me what her legal scholarship

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Speaker 1: was that was used by Marshall in the landmark Brown v.

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Speaker 1: Board of Education case that she never got credit for.

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Speaker 1: It was a paper that she wrote in her senior

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Speaker 1: year of law school at Howard Law School, a paper

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Speaker 1: that elicited raucous laughter from her classmates, all of them men,

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Speaker 1: and prompted her to bet the professor in the class,

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Speaker 1: Spotswood Robinson, that Plessy versus ferguson the eighteen nineties case

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Speaker 1: that established the principle of separate but equal, that Plessy

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Speaker 1: would be overturned in twenty five years. And indeed, Plessy

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Speaker 1: was overturned in Brown in only ten years. And it

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Speaker 1: was overturned because Murray was able to persuade Robinson and

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Speaker 1: third Good Marshal that they were approaching race discrimination in

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Speaker 1: a way that was death and to not ultimately be successful.

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Speaker 1: In other words, that they were trying to persuade courts

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Speaker 1: to make black institutions equal to white and she said

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Speaker 1: that they should be attacking separation per se. And her

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Speaker 1: argument was that segregation itself was illegal under the Fourteenth

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Speaker 1: Amendment because it arbitrarily categorized a group of people and

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Speaker 1: subordinated them to those in power. That was the original

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Speaker 1: understanding of the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment, that no

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Speaker 1: state shall deny to any person the equal protection of

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Speaker 1: the laws, and that categorizing and subordinating people, either in

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Speaker 1: separate schools or by forcing them to the back of

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Speaker 1: a bus, was per se on the equal rosalind your

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Speaker 1: book is entitled Jane crow a term Murray herself coined.

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Speaker 1: What did it mean to her? Jane Crowe was a

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Speaker 1: term that Murray coined when she was at Howard Law

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Speaker 1: School in the early teen forties. All the other students

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Speaker 1: were male should come to Howard to train as a

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Speaker 1: civil rights lawyer, and all the other students had come

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Speaker 1: for the same reason. She could not understand why these

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Speaker 1: men who understood so well the injustice of racial discrimination

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Speaker 1: could not see the parallel of gender discrimination. So they

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Speaker 1: were fighting Jim Crow, but they didn't see that Jane Crow,

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Speaker 1: as she termed it, was just as problematic. She meant

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Speaker 1: by that discrimination on the basis of gender, but more broadly,

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Speaker 1: she saw racial discrimination and gender discrimination and also economic

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Speaker 1: discrimination as interconnected. And Jane Crow was a term that

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Speaker 1: she used to describe her own life in the struggles

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Speaker 1: that she confronted, but also as a term to capture

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Speaker 1: the parallel between race discrimination and gender discrimination. One of

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Speaker 1: Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's early achievements as a woman's advocate

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Speaker 1: at the a c LU was winning the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: case you mentioned Read the read in nineteen one, and

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Speaker 1: she credits Murray on the brief. Tell me about Murray's

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Speaker 1: contribution to that. Murray's contribution to that case was largely

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Speaker 1: through her writing, especially a law review article that she

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Speaker 1: wrote with a colleague, Mary Eastwood and published in was

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Speaker 1: called Jane Crow and the Law, and that article summarized

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Speaker 1: the writings of the last two decades that Murray had

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Speaker 1: done in explaining the ways in which gender discrimination parallel

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Speaker 1: raised discrimination and was therefore illegal for the same reasons

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Speaker 1: that race discrimination was. And Ruth Bader Ginsburg read that

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Speaker 1: article and saw it as a way of extending the

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Speaker 1: victory in brown to a victory for for women in

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Speaker 1: the case of read the read. There are so many

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Speaker 1: firsts in her life. She was California's first black deputy

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Speaker 1: Attorney general in the first black person earned a doctorate

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Speaker 1: of jurisprudence at Yale Law School, the first black woman

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Speaker 1: to be ordained an episcopal priest in nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that there was something in her that

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Speaker 1: wanted to crush barriers and so she kept going, even

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Speaker 1: to the point of entering the priesthood. I think that's

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Speaker 1: that's very true. She was a driven person, and she

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Speaker 1: was driven by this intersection of the racial prejudice that

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Speaker 1: she fought, the gender prejudice that she fought, and the

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Speaker 1: desperate economic conditions under which she lived. She left the

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Speaker 1: South after high school to escape Jim Crowe came to

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Speaker 1: New York, congraduated from Hunter College, then a college for women.

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Speaker 1: Into the Great Depression. She was malnourished much of her life,

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Speaker 1: so she was always exquisitely attuned to and concern about

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Speaker 1: these multiple discriminations, not only how they affected her individually,

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Speaker 1: but how they affected others throughout the world. And she

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Speaker 1: was really a pioneer in human rights. There were so

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Speaker 1: many roles she played that I was not aware of.

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Speaker 1: She was one of the founders of the National Organization

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Speaker 1: for Women. She was appointed by Eleanor Roosevelt to the

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Speaker 1: President's Commission on the Status of Women. This adds to

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Speaker 1: the mystery of why most people don't know her part

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Speaker 1: in the women's rights or civil rights movements. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of it has to do with the

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Speaker 1: very phenomenon of Jane Crowe. It's hard to be African

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Speaker 1: American in this society. It's hard to be a woman

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Speaker 1: in the society. It's doubly hard to be an African

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Speaker 1: American woman in this society. So I hope that this

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Speaker 1: book can correct that loss to history of a really

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Speaker 1: pivotal and highly influential figure. Murray wrote an autobiography but

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Speaker 1: left out her struggles with her sex reality and gender identity.

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Speaker 1: But you write about this in your biography, tell us

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Speaker 1: about the profound effect it had on her. Murray was

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Speaker 1: born in nineteen and she she knew from early childhood

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Speaker 1: that she felt like a boy, and by the time

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Speaker 1: she was in her twenties, she read everything she possibly

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Speaker 1: could on the subject, which wasn't a lot. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the term transgender and trans sexual did not exist. There

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Speaker 1: certainly was no social movement to support transgender people, but

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Speaker 1: there was a literature of sexology, of whom the foremost

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Speaker 1: figure was Havelock Ellis. She read Havelock Ellis and was

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Speaker 1: very very much supported by what Ellice had to say,

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Speaker 1: which is that we all are male and female to

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Speaker 1: varying degrees, and some people, he argued, were pseudo hermaphrodite,

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Speaker 1: people who had the characteristics of external characteristics of one

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Speaker 1: sex and the internal characteristics of another sex. And Murray

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Speaker 1: believed that that was what she was. But whenever she

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Speaker 1: would confide in a friend that she was a pseudo hermaphrodite,

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Speaker 1: the friend would sail, that's ridiculous, and so she would

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Speaker 1: clam up. But she went to every doctor she could find,

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Speaker 1: endo chronologists, to anyone who was dealing with issues of

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Speaker 1: gender identity at the time, and no one would help her.

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Speaker 1: They said, you're a normal female. She asked for testosterone,

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Speaker 1: and the doctor said, well, we're not going to give

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Speaker 1: you testosterone. Will give you estrogen, but we won't give

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Speaker 1: you testosterone. She was struggling at a time when there

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Speaker 1: was just zero support for what she believed very strongly

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Speaker 1: she was that was tough. Is that why she left

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Speaker 1: the struggles about her gender identity out of her autobiography.

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Speaker 1: She had long ago come to the conclusion that she

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be accepted by the time she had finished her memoir.

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Speaker 1: She was a priest, and she believed that if she

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Speaker 1: were open about her sexuality and gender identity that she

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Speaker 1: would not have any more opportunities to give sermons, to

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Speaker 1: participate in academic seminars, and she depended upon this work

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Speaker 1: in order to faith herself. So it was when she

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Speaker 1: died at the age of seventy four pancreatic cancer. Died

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Speaker 1: quite suddenly, and the memoir was published two years later

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Speaker 1: in But this was still a period in which to

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Speaker 1: be transgender was still to be a social outlaw, and

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Speaker 1: she just couldn't take that risk. Of all her achievements,

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Speaker 1: what do you think Murray would most like to be

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Speaker 1: remembered for, Well, Murray's grandfather, African American abolitionist who fought

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Speaker 1: in the Civil War, had four daughters and a granddaughter,

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Speaker 1: and he told them all, you have to have more

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Speaker 1: than one career, because you never know when one will fail.

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Speaker 1: And so Murray was many things. So I'm struggling to think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what was the most important. I think if Murray were

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Speaker 1: speaking in my stead, she would say that the most

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Speaker 1: important thing in her life was that she survived, and

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Speaker 1: her most important contribution was to attack the idea of

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Speaker 1: racial and gender categories as arbitrary and limiting and ultimately unjust.

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Speaker 1: But it would be difficult to say which of those

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Speaker 1: was more important, because she experienced them as equally important,

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Speaker 1: and she did so many different things in her life

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Speaker 1: it's hard to settle on a single thing, except perhaps

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Speaker 1: that core idea that arbitrary categories that have no clear

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Speaker 1: barriers are inherently unjust. Rosalind, how long did it take

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Speaker 1: you to write the book and do the research? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Embarrassed to say it took two decades to write it,

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Speaker 1: and part it was because I had so much difficulty

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to convey the aspects of

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Speaker 1: Murray's life that she found most difficult and in part

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Speaker 1: because it just took a long time to get through

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Speaker 1: the hundred and thirty five boxes of materials that she

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Speaker 1: left to the Plessenger Librairie at Radcliffe and Harvard University.

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Speaker 1: And Rosalind, what would you like readers to come away

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Speaker 1: with about Murray after reading your book? Something that she

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Speaker 1: said in one of her final sermons that there is

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Speaker 1: no black and white, there is no male and female,

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Speaker 1: there is no north and south. There is in Christ,

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Speaker 1: love and reconciliation. And I think at a time when

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Speaker 1: the country is so polarized, I would want people to

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Speaker 1: know that Paully Murray fought all of her life against

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Speaker 1: great odds for basic human rights and acceptance of all

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Speaker 1: people ought to be different. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being on Bloomberg Law Law. That's Rosalind Rosenberg, the author

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Speaker 1: of Jane Crowe, The Life of Polly Murray.