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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And today on the show, since it

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Speaker 1: is Halloween season, we have a very special guest on

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Speaker 1: to talk to us about halloween ish topic. That's right.

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking to Kate Sweeney, writer and esteemed radio

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Speaker 1: producer here in Atlanta with us. I brought my roomstick,

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Speaker 1: that's right. So as part of this Halloween centric episode,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about something that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people find spooky and maybe unsettling and almost creepy until

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Speaker 1: they learn more about it, and that is the topic

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Speaker 1: of death and burial and our attitudes about both of

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Speaker 1: these things in our society today. And Kate wrote an

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Speaker 1: entire book about death and morning practices in American culture

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Speaker 1: called American Afterlife. So since Kate literally has written the

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Speaker 1: book on done in America, we wanted to ask you

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Speaker 1: some questions, especially focused on women's roles in death and

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Speaker 1: mourning rituals um for the past couple hundred years. So,

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Speaker 1: first of all, Kate, thanks so much for coming on

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Speaker 1: the show. Thank you so much for having me. I

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Speaker 1: am a fan of this podcast, Well, we're a fan

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Speaker 1: of yours, so it's mutual. Um. So, first off, Kate,

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Speaker 1: could you just talk a little bit about what inspired

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Speaker 1: you to write American After like, particularly since it is

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Speaker 1: a topic like Caroline said that some people might be

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Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable spending so much time with I would

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Speaker 1: venture to say that most of us would be pretty uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Uh if if you just say, hey, let's write a

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Speaker 1: book about death, like, that's not the way I want

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Speaker 1: to spend my time. That's that sounds horrible and terrifying.

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Speaker 1: But I think in large part that's what modied aided

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Speaker 1: me actually to write the book is my own fear.

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Speaker 1: So I was obsessed with the TV show six ft Under,

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Speaker 1: which y'all may remember the HBO show about the funeral

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Speaker 1: direct in family, And I mean I was. It was

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Speaker 1: the first show I binged watched and would like think

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Speaker 1: about the storylines of the different characters while I was

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Speaker 1: out like walking my dog, I'd be like, oh that

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Speaker 1: brenda um. And I would read anything I could get

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Speaker 1: my hands on about six ft under. And I saw

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Speaker 1: in an article in The New Yorker by Tad Friend

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Speaker 1: about and and it mentioned like six ft under and

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Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, well, I'm going to read this.

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Speaker 1: And it was about a green burial cemetery in California

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Speaker 1: and this idea of green burial, which is ecologically friendly

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Speaker 1: burial burial without anything that doesn't decompose completely down to nothing.

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Speaker 1: And it mentioned sort of almost as a footnote in

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Speaker 1: this story that the nation's first green burial cemetery was

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Speaker 1: in South Carolina, which was a short drive from where

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Speaker 1: I was living at the time. So you know, I

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Speaker 1: went over and um ended up writing a feature story

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Speaker 1: about Ramsey Creek Preserve, the nation's first green burial cemetery,

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Speaker 1: and that got published in Oxford American Magazine, and then

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Speaker 1: I was just kind of off from there. It seems

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Speaker 1: like everywhere I looked with fascinating stuff about memorialization and

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Speaker 1: how we remember our how we remember are dead. And

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Speaker 1: you know, hey, there's this company in Decatur, Georgia that

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Speaker 1: will make your ashes into artificial coral reefs and page

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Speaker 1: did you know all of the things that go into

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Speaker 1: a traditional burial And here's what oh bit writers do

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Speaker 1: and here's how they spend their time. And so it

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Speaker 1: just ended up being this really sort of fascinating thing

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Speaker 1: that snowballed. And as I said, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: one reason that I sort of started this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: even though the book isn't really it's it's not about me,

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Speaker 1: was the fact that, like so many of us, this

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Speaker 1: is something I know nothing for new, nothing about, but

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Speaker 1: do now and um, you know, sort of have this

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Speaker 1: great fear of it, like it's going to happen to

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Speaker 1: all of us sooner or later. We're all going to

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Speaker 1: lose our loved ones. And that terrifies me still. And

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Speaker 1: so I think on some level one reason I wrote

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Speaker 1: the book is that I wanted to know what to

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Speaker 1: expect on some level when it did happen to me. Well,

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Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating parts of reading American Afterlife

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Speaker 1: is just seeing how the culture of death has changed

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Speaker 1: in America. I mean you're talking about it started off

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Speaker 1: with a feature story about green burials, um, but in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the book you focus on more Victorian

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Speaker 1: era death and mourning practices, and they were all about death.

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Speaker 1: They didn't seem afraid of death at all. And in

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Speaker 1: the book you write, since public grief was mainly the

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Speaker 1: woman's province, it was toward her that rules of mourning

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Speaker 1: were directed. So I was wondering if you could talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about what some of those womanly rules

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Speaker 1: for grieving where there were so many it was fascinating.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, like, as you said, so we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds here, and this was the generation that

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Speaker 1: pretty much invented everything we think about when it comes

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Speaker 1: to death and memorialization, from the deathbed scene to the

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Speaker 1: modern day cemetery to what we think of sort of

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Speaker 1: really when it comes to funerals. Still and back in

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Speaker 1: those times, men and women both had certain rules of

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Speaker 1: decorum to follow. Like this was like the the age

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Speaker 1: of decorum and etiquettes and manners and so forth. So

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Speaker 1: in etiquette books of the eighteen hundreds, the sections on

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Speaker 1: death and grieving were often the thickest chunks because as

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Speaker 1: you say, these people they kind of had a thing

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Speaker 1: for for death. Um. But because this was the Victorian era. Also,

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Speaker 1: as you say, um, a lot of this was directed

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Speaker 1: toward women because the women and sphere was largely the

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Speaker 1: private sphere right indoors. This was the era that romanticized

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Speaker 1: the family, actually romanticized everything. It was the Romantic capital

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Speaker 1: are romantic era. Um. But it romanticized motherhood as this

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Speaker 1: sort of holy bastion, and this woman's sphere as being

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Speaker 1: in the home and the woman making the home this

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Speaker 1: this wonderful, warm place, and and that whole idea was

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Speaker 1: kind of invented in eighteen hundreds, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: wild to think about because it still is with us today.

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Speaker 1: And the woman's realm was also the emotional realm, So

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Speaker 1: I mean when you put all this together with mourning,

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Speaker 1: it was like, yeah, that's uh, it's everyone's territory, but

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Speaker 1: especially it's it's for the ladies. Right. So one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite deportment handbooks that I ran across has the

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Speaker 1: most awesome title in the world, which I read about

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Speaker 1: in the book, but I really want to just say

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Speaker 1: it because it's great. So this is written in John H. Young.

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Speaker 1: This book was called Our Deportment Whole, or the Manners, Conduct,

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Speaker 1: and Dress of the most Refined Society, including forms for letters, invitations, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Also Valuable suggestions on home culture and training. That was

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Speaker 1: one title with two ETCeteras to Etcetera's because you know,

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Speaker 1: why stop at one? This is Victorian times exactly. You know,

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Speaker 1: we like to accessorize, we like to you know, just

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Speaker 1: add as many knickknacks and stuff so we can. So

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Speaker 1: during this time, it was typical to prescribe to widows

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Speaker 1: two years of mourning. Young's guide called for twelve months

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Speaker 1: mourning for one's deceased child or parent, six months for

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Speaker 1: a grandparent or a sibling, six months for a friend

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Speaker 1: who leaves you an inheritance, and three months that's very polite,

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Speaker 1: and three months for an uncle and nephew or niece. Uh.

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Speaker 1: For for men, things were a little more curtailed than

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Speaker 1: for women because men were indeed as so dated with

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Speaker 1: the public sphere and they were out working, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this sort of new industrial age. Um, they had

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Speaker 1: rules as well, but it was a way bigger deal,

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Speaker 1: as you say, for women, and there were specifics on

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Speaker 1: what the woman could wear and where she could go

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Speaker 1: during this time. And you've got to remember that in

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Speaker 1: this era etiquette was king and there were specific rules

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Speaker 1: for everything. Um, but you know, morning, as I said,

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Speaker 1: really big deal. So one of these was fashion, right

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Speaker 1: of course, So in the first stage of mourning, which

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Speaker 1: was also called deep mourning, which would be one year

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Speaker 1: for a widow, that first stage of mourning, women wore

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Speaker 1: quote solid black woolen goods, collar and cuffs of folded

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Speaker 1: untrimmed crepe, a simple crepe bonnet, and a long thick

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Speaker 1: black crepe veil. And it was very important during this

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Speaker 1: first period that none of these things that a woman

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Speaker 1: wore even reflected light, well down right to not even

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Speaker 1: being able to wear white petticoats in case that showed

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Speaker 1: underneath here that reflected light, because that might like totally

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Speaker 1: give off the wrong impression. You know what kind of

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Speaker 1: harlot were you, right? So, I mean like fitted bonnets

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Speaker 1: and veils and in our forbears love their jewelry too, right,

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Speaker 1: But this affection was curtailed in the first stage of morning,

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Speaker 1: uh you know that that one year period for widows.

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Speaker 1: In the latter stages of half mourning, however, a woman

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Speaker 1: could don a shorter veil and black silk which did

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Speaker 1: reflect light, right, and also tons of morning jewelry and

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Speaker 1: accessories like there were morning fans, morning handkerchiefs. The jewelry

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Speaker 1: was often crafted of jet, which is actually a type

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Speaker 1: of coal which is very very heavy, and women would

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Speaker 1: like down long chains of this stuff. During one period

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Speaker 1: it was really fashionable. And I just have to tell

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Speaker 1: you about crape, and this is cr ape, not ep.

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Speaker 1: Crepe is actually silk, but it's silk that has gone

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Speaker 1: through this process so that it is dull and sort

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Speaker 1: of wrinkled and frankly, very ugly. And this was intentional,

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Speaker 1: and it was like they were making this beautiful fabric

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Speaker 1: ugly on purpose, for the purpose of mourning. And I

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Speaker 1: think there's actually something kind of lovely in that idea,

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Speaker 1: because when you're in morning, it's like, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: wear all the ugly things. Um, nobody was thinking that's

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Speaker 1: totally like my twenty one century thing, like, but you know,

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Speaker 1: they'd lug around these heavy jet chains and wear crepe

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Speaker 1: and sort of announced I am in mourning and I

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Speaker 1: am going through a very hard time right now. And

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Speaker 1: companies actually made their fortunes on this morning crape. Like

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Speaker 1: it was really really big business, and fashion magazines advertised

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Speaker 1: all the latest styles in mourning fashion. And you know,

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Speaker 1: course it was a bit easier to be a woman

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Speaker 1: in mourning if you were a woman of certain means, right,

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Speaker 1: because you could afford all this stuff, you could really

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Speaker 1: go by all these rules of etiquette. It was a

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Speaker 1: lot easier. But women of every class it got to

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Speaker 1: be so that women of just about every class would

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Speaker 1: spend a fortune on their mourning at coutrement, because the

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Speaker 1: ability to mourn and to do it right was understood

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Speaker 1: to be sort of a high society thing, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, everybody aspired to that, and this idea of

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Speaker 1: moving through classes and having that class mobility was kind

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Speaker 1: of this new idea. There was a new emerging middle

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Speaker 1: class during the eighteen hundreds, So stores and catalogs sold

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Speaker 1: sort of less expensive versions of all of this stuff

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Speaker 1: to everyone. Um. And then I just have to say

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Speaker 1: that I would be remiss if I didn't mention, um,

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Speaker 1: everyone's favorite material for a mourning in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: and that's human hair. And so you know, this was

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Speaker 1: the era in which you know, you would be cording

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Speaker 1: with your sweetheart and you'd exchange a lock of hair,

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Speaker 1: or you get a lock of hair from your mother,

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Speaker 1: and it was sort of romantic, and you make a

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Speaker 1: piece of jewelry. And then when that person died, as

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Speaker 1: you know, they would of influenza or childbirth or tuberculosis

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Speaker 1: or then even then we had the Civil War, there

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Speaker 1: were tons and tons of deaths. Um at that point,

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Speaker 1: you would have this death memento, and people would do

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Speaker 1: everything with human hair that you can possibly imagine. They

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Speaker 1: would be brooches, necklaces made from human hair, uh, bracelets, uh,

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Speaker 1: your rings. I even saw a few tiaras, so you

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Speaker 1: would be wearing somebody's hair on top of your own hair.

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Speaker 1: So wreaths like these giant I was in the Museum

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Speaker 1: of Funeral Customs in Springfield, Illinois, and there was this

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Speaker 1: giant funeral wreath that I was sort of gazing at

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Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, and then I realized reading

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Speaker 1: the placard, it was like material human hair, and I

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Speaker 1: was just like, oh my god, wow, And like, all

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Speaker 1: this stuff is really uncomfortable to our twenty one century perspective,

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Speaker 1: right because it's sort of it's it's really visceral um.

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Speaker 1: This was also the era when people would take memorial

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Speaker 1: photography of their dead, and that was extremely popular. People

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Speaker 1: still do that today actually, but this was like the

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Speaker 1: golden age of people taking photographs of their dead and

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Speaker 1: displaying them for all to see in in lockett's or

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Speaker 1: in their houses, and all of this stuff. The sort

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Speaker 1: of visceral, very close connection with death tends to make

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Speaker 1: us very uncomfortable today it makes me uncomfortable, but to

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Speaker 1: me it also in a way kind of underscores our

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Speaker 1: own distance from death. Well, it's also fascinating to how

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Speaker 1: you're talking about these visceral displays of death and the

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Speaker 1: Victorian obsession with even taking memorial photographs that we would

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Speaker 1: not think of doing today, and yet they're complete discomfort

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Speaker 1: with visceral things such as sex. You know, it's so

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Speaker 1: it's so strange. Yeah, And and there are even some

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Speaker 1: social scientists who posit that there's been a switch because

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, you know this, that was the

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Speaker 1: time when they would like cover legs of furniture, you know,

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Speaker 1: like material, because it might remind you of a human

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Speaker 1: of like a lady's leg and you might get too

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Speaker 1: worked wooden lady legs, you know, your wooden lady legs. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and people were really uncomfortable with the idea of sex.

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Speaker 1: Um And there have been social scientists that have positive

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Speaker 1: that today um, sex and death of sort of swapped places,

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Speaker 1: as you may know, um And like we can talk

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Speaker 1: about sex all day long, and like it's everywhere in

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Speaker 1: popular culture, but death is the thing that we apologize

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Speaker 1: for bringing up because it's uncomfortable and it's unseemly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I feel like today you would never see someone

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Speaker 1: I mean, granted, you would probably never see someone in

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Speaker 1: a Victorian or Edwardian black morning gown today typically, but

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it is interesting to think about how

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Speaker 1: it was so not only h accepted but expected that

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Speaker 1: you would see someone publicly mourning for that long of

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Speaker 1: a period, whereas today I almost feel like people would

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Speaker 1: be just fed up with it and just say, oh,

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Speaker 1: get on with it, because they would make them uncomfortable,

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Speaker 1: or they would just think, why are you still even

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Speaker 1: in this right? Yeah, I mean, if you think back

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Speaker 1: to the eighteen hundreds, death was all around in a

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Speaker 1: way that it isn't today. Um, besides the fact that

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Speaker 1: you had people sort of dropping left and right from

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Speaker 1: all sorts of disease and farming accidents and the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, dying in death of place in the house

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Speaker 1: and again was very much something that women spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time around. Um, but everyone saw a lot

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Speaker 1: of and because it's something that we all experienced all

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Speaker 1: the time, it was sort of a phase that you

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Speaker 1: would go into and then go out of and go

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Speaker 1: into again. And it was sort of part of American

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Speaker 1: life rather than today. It seems like it's something you know,

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Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of people for this this book.

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Speaker 1: You to obviously experienced loss, and there was the sense

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Speaker 1: of for a lot of folks not only loss and

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Speaker 1: sadness and grieving, but surprise and the sense of betrayal

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Speaker 1: that this had happened to them, like, oh, this wasn't

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Speaker 1: supposed to be part of my life. Um, it's not

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Speaker 1: part of the expectation of what happens to us. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: so talking more about death related industries, you you brought

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Speaker 1: up the fashion industry is one of them. But so

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Speaker 1: did the development of death related industries in the eighteenth

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Speaker 1: and nineteenth centuries, like the formalization of the funeral industry

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Speaker 1: and the rise of hospitals impact women's roles in dying

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Speaker 1: in mourning. Yes, yes it did, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. In the seventeen hundreds, if you look

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Speaker 1: at town directories, you'll often see a position called layer

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Speaker 1: out of bodies. Is exactly what it sounds like, and

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Speaker 1: this was a role often held by women. Um, these

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Speaker 1: same women were often midwives, So the same women who

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Speaker 1: brought life into the world sort of shepherded it out

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Speaker 1: and through the eighteen hundreds and and in the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, in many places in this country, small towns

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Speaker 1: and in the American South, death and dying took place

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Speaker 1: at home, or you would hope that it would take

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Speaker 1: place to home because you knew that it was going

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Speaker 1: to happen to you. You saw it all the time.

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Speaker 1: You just hope that when it did happen, you'd be

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Speaker 1: at home. You know, often doctors would pay house calls,

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Speaker 1: they would visit, and they were men, so they were

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Speaker 1: definitely in the mix too. But the home was the

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Speaker 1: woman's space and caregiving was her role and so and so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she you know, women sort of helped to sort of

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Speaker 1: shepherd this whole process. There was this cultural notion of

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Speaker 1: the good death, and that was death at home, surrounded

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Speaker 1: by loved ones, and it actually stemmed from Evangelical Christianity,

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Speaker 1: and so, you know, ideally it was also like being

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Speaker 1: saved before you died. But it became such a huge

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Speaker 1: cultural idea and of import to just about everyone, whether

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Speaker 1: or not you were Christian. You would hope for a

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Speaker 1: good death, and women definitely helped to create this homy

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Speaker 1: picture because with our our nurturing and our caregiving ways, um.

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Speaker 1: But all of this sort of began to erode actually

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Speaker 1: with the Civil War because people were dying places far

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Speaker 1: from home, um, and people didn't know how their loved

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Speaker 1: ones were dying, and it was really sort of this

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Speaker 1: cataclysmic um effect besides the death you had, you know,

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Speaker 1: beside the fact that so and so had died, they

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Speaker 1: were dying far away and under circumstances that that you

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Speaker 1: you didn't know, and people wanted their loved ones back

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Speaker 1: in order to have funerals. And so you saw the

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Speaker 1: rise of embolming right for the first time, which before

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Speaker 1: then had been considered to be really kind of this

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Speaker 1: bizarre practice. And so people would embalm soldiers so that

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Speaker 1: they could be shipped home and they could have you know,

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Speaker 1: proper funerals for them. And most notably actually with the

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Speaker 1: death of Abraham Lincoln. You know, after his assassination, his

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Speaker 1: body went on this tour of the country, um via train,

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Speaker 1: and during that train trip his body was embalmed and

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Speaker 1: re embalmed and re embalmed. Actually because uh, it went

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Speaker 1: on for so long, and but you know, people gathered

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Speaker 1: in crowds and they saw Abe Lincoln after his death,

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Speaker 1: and this also helped to uh spur on the acceptance

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Speaker 1: of embalming um and make it acceptable. So we see

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Speaker 1: the rise of this new funeral industry at the end

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Speaker 1: of the eighteen hundreds sort of um based on this

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Speaker 1: practice of embalming and and the funeral industry. You know,

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00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 1: funeral directors were mostly men. Actually they were men at

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Speaker 1: this time. They were men because men public sphere, women

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Speaker 1: private sphere. And then around the turn of the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: you see the rise of germ theory, and death and

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00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,399
Speaker 1: dying um just weren't happening as willy nilly and like

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Speaker 1: all the time as they had to, like, death rates plummeted,

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Speaker 1: and death and dying were also moved out of the home,

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Speaker 1: which is something that I just found to be so

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Speaker 1: fascinating researching this book. I remember like these were these

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Speaker 1: moments when I would be in libraries and like reading

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Speaker 1: about the stuff and like look up and be like,

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Speaker 1: no way, I want to tell somebody about this stuff. Um.

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Speaker 1: So you see the rise of hospitals, you see the

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Speaker 1: rise of funeral homes, and both of these institutions were

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Speaker 1: actually made to look homelike at first in order to

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Speaker 1: attract people. Um, hospitals were actually made to look like

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Speaker 1: these sort of spas to attract upper classes who thought

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Speaker 1: of them as places for the destitute. Up until this point,

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Speaker 1: the first standalone funeral businesses, many of them were called

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Speaker 1: funeral parlors, the parlor being the room in the house

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Speaker 1: in which, you know, we traditionally would uh court with

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Speaker 1: our sweethearts and maybe get married and then expect to

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Speaker 1: have our funerals, you know. So they're like, so these

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00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,880
Speaker 1: funeral directors were like, you can trust us. We've got

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Speaker 1: funeral parlors just like you do at your home. You know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I just made that weird place,

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Speaker 1: my imaginary funeral director. Um so yeah yeah. And like

363
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: fashions were changing, and all these Victorian accessories and heavy

364
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 1: curtain rooms filled with knick knacks just became seemed really quickly,

365
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Speaker 1: really unfashionable and sort of associated with this gloomy idea

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Speaker 1: of that those Victorians who were death obsessed and had

367
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Speaker 1: that they were obsessed with having death in their homes,

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Speaker 1: And that became a weirder and weirder idea really quickly

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Speaker 1: as the twentieth century progressed, and in fact it was

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Speaker 1: a woman's magazine. I don't remember which one it says

371
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 1: in the book, but I don't remember now that actually

372
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Speaker 1: made this decision, um to rename the parlor in in

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Speaker 1: in the in the family home, uh, instead of calling

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Speaker 1: it the parlor, which was you know, you think of parlor,

375
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Speaker 1: and you think of these dark rooms with tons of

376
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Speaker 1: nick knacks and heavy curtains, not much sunlight, to call

377
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Speaker 1: it the living room. Ah well, and I mean so

378
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 1: significant to the living room, I know, what, so wild like.

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Speaker 1: And there was this idea around that time that that

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Speaker 1: sort of rose up, and I think it's still with

381
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Speaker 1: us to some extent, that that we would through germ

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Speaker 1: theory and medicine, conquer all disease and that death was

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Speaker 1: sort of this ultimate malady and we would conquer that too. Well.

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Speaker 1: I'm really curious from the research that you did looking

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Speaker 1: at the different kinds of death industries today, whether you

386
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 1: noticed any gendered patterns, like for instance, you mentioned, you know,

387
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: back in the day, funeral directors were men, but um

388
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Speaker 1: and a lot of the people you talked to in

389
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Speaker 1: the book are women, So clearly we have a role

390
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: in this. But I was just wondering if there were

391
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 1: any kind of like pockets where women tend to dominate.

392
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 1: So the funeral industry, yeah, is sort of traditionally male dominated,

393
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: and not only male male dominated, but sort of old

394
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: men dominated traditionally. Um, but now women are moving in

395
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 1: and something like of United States mortuary school graduates today

396
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Speaker 1: are women, and that's up from something like five percent

397
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy And I got those figures from a

398
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Speaker 1: Slate article. And we see the rise of groups like

399
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Speaker 1: the Association of Women Funeral Professionals, And there's actually a

400
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: social group I'm not sure if they're around anymore, but

401
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: they were a few years ago called Funeral Divas and

402
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: it was actually like this, the social networking group for

403
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, ladies in in the industry. And we see

404
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 1: the rise of groups like the Order of the Good Death,

405
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: which spearheaded by this amazing mortician in California named Caitlin Doughty,

406
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: and she and sort of her ILK are all about

407
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: bringing back actually holistic feel to death and dying, promoting

408
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: things like home funerals and green burial, which is really

409
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: interesting because if you think about it, like you might

410
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: look at it and say, well, that's that's sort of

411
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: new age, and that's this new wave of doing the

412
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: way of doing things, but actually harkens back to the

413
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, right, and then the way things used to be.

414
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: UM and I interviewed actually ended up interviewing a lot

415
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: of women for the book, which I didn't set out

416
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: to do but just happened. I interviewed men too, but

417
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: UM a lot of ladies. And the book includes chapters

418
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: about a number of really dynamic women involved in death

419
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 1: and dying in one way or another. UM and they

420
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: were really some of the most vivid interviews I did.

421
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 1: There was the co owner of a green burial cemetery,

422
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: a funeral chaplain, a memorial tattoo artist, and a current

423
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: day memorial photographer, and also a no bit writer who

424
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: can forget Kay Powell, retired obituary writer for the Atlanta

425
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: Journal Constitution. And she was amazing. She's just this fourth

426
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: uh So, as I said, there are plenty of men

427
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: in the book as well, but these women, we're just

428
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: incredible to talk to and for me just sort of

429
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: personally really inspiring. Well, and it was interesting to reading

430
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: the profiles of those women because in for instance, the

431
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: cases of uh, the memorial tattoo artist and the chaplain

432
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: in particular. I was waiting to read about a guy

433
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: who's doing these kinds of things, and it seems like

434
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: these women are also, in their own way, kind of

435
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: paving their way via death and two more what we

436
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: would kind of consider to be more male dominated spheres.

437
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting as well. Um And

438
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: one of the women who whose story made the biggest

439
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: impact and I think would resonate a lot too with

440
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: um our audience is a memorial photographer, Wanna Oh Grief.

441
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: That's right. Could you talk a little bit about what

442
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: Wanna does and whether it's maybe an extension of the

443
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: traditional Victorian women as gatekeeper role in public grieving. Well,

444
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because Wanna one as a photographer, and

445
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: what she does on the side is she worked as

446
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: a DULA and that's a non medical birthing assistant. And

447
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: it was actually during a training session as ADULA that

448
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: somebody mentioned, you know, we're looking for volunteers to join

449
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: this organization to take memorial photographs, and that's something that

450
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: want To already had done in her personal life. She

451
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: had photographed her father sort of in his decline and

452
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: that was sort of her artistic response to her experiences

453
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 1: in the world, and so sort of natural for her

454
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: to sign up to do it. But I think you're right, um,

455
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: that it does hearken back to this these roles that

456
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: that women used to sort of traditionally have in um,

457
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: the eighteenth nineteenth century and probably on back of um,

458
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: you know, shepherding life both into and out of the world,

459
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: you know, being midwives and she's not a midwife, she's

460
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: a duelab but being midwives and um meaning folks who

461
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: care for the dead, you know, like washing the body

462
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: and all of that kind of thing. Well, and the

463
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: fact too that she tends to take photographs of uh babies,

464
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: like newborns that have died with something so like I

465
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: couldn't imagine, not to say that men couldn't take those

466
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: photographs and they couldn't be as equally powerful, But in

467
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: those moments where she's in the hospital room with these

468
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: parents holding they're deceased newborn or almost deceased newborn, I

469
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: can't imagine almost a guy in that position, if that

470
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: makes sense. And maybe that's me just like being too

471
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: gender really about it, but um, that made a big

472
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: impression on me. Yeah, she actually volunteers for this organization

473
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, which is

474
00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: specifically UM centered around newborns and infants who are who

475
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: are dying and for parents who want those photographs. And yeah,

476
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: I I think you're right. I mean, she's comfortable in

477
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: the role as adula. And I think women in these

478
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: sort of experiences of childbirth, you know, we might expect

479
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: to see another woman as a professional in the room, UM,

480
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: but not necessarily an extra man necessarily UM. And you know,

481
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really interesting. Before I met her, and

482
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: even when I first met her, I didn't understand why

483
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: anybody would want these pictures, Like I I didn't understand

484
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: why anybody who would want photographs of they're dead frankly.

485
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: But I mean, if you think about it, these are

486
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: often the only photos that these people will have of uh,

487
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: of their infant children, and the only evidence that this

488
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: relationship ever existed, and sort of you know, I think,

489
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: especially in our are fairly death phobic society in which

490
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: we exists today, in which we live, UM, there might

491
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: be a tendency to downplay those relationships UM or that

492
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: loss as being as meaningful as a loss of an

493
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: older child or the loss of a peer, um. Because

494
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: you know you might think, well, you know it was

495
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: only a short time, um, and you know people might

496
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: want to downplay it. But I think it's precisely even

497
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: maybe even because of that impulse of our society, that

498
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: having these photographs is so meaningful for people, or can be.

499
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,479
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously not everybody wants them or or needs them.

500
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: They're not useful for everybody who goes through this experience,

501
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: but um, for for those for whom it is useful, UM,

502
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: I think it can be really cathartic. I mean you

503
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: might have an experience of you're an older sibling, um,

504
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: and you know this story, but now you have sort

505
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: of this evidence of like, oh, there we were in

506
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: a photograph together, you know, my twin in me or

507
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: something like that. You know, they are very very sad circumstances, um,

508
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: but just serving as evidence that Okay, this this life

509
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: existed and this death really happened. Yeah, I can imagine

510
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 1: that it would possibly help serve as a form of

511
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: closure in a way if there can never be a

512
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: closure with something like that, but certainly help the grieving process. Yeah, yeah,

513
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: it is, it is, really it is really fat. So

514
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: you have a great chapter on obituaries. And this is

515
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: a personal interest to me, just because I am super

516
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: family history genealogy obsessed, and people who research family history

517
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: relized so much on obituaries to get those little details.

518
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: Who did they leave behind, who preceded them in death,

519
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: where did they live, where were they buried, was there

520
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: any sort of funeral, where was the funeral? All of

521
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And so what also comes that

522
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: when you're doing family history is the realization that you know,

523
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: sometimes people just didn't have oh bits, and there was

524
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: this societal perception of like, well, did you matter enough

525
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: for you important enough in society to have an obituary?

526
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: And you know, I have a lot of family members

527
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: who I'll never find one for them because they didn't

528
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: have enough money, or simply because they were female. And

529
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: so um. That leads me to the question of your

530
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: discussion in the book about nineteenth century obituaries being largely

531
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: dedicated to white men and so basically what was up

532
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: with that? Did that have a lot to do with

533
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: just social standing? Yeah? I think it had everything to

534
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: do with social standing. And often when you would see

535
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: obituaries written for um, minority groups. I guess, for want

536
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: of a better term, groups like women a Native Americans,

537
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: African Americans, they would play up the qualities that society

538
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: valorized in them. So if there were, um, an obituary

539
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 1: written about a woman, it would you know, play up

540
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, uh, you know how she was

541
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,959
Speaker 1: such a great homemaker, etcetera, etcetera loving wife, which you

542
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: know does sound too unfamiliar today. Um, not that these

543
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: are bad things, but um, but you know, for you know,

544
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: for obituaries of Native Americans, and it might be the um,

545
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: the guy who helped the army to win some battle,

546
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: like you know actually like you know, joined the Union

547
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: army and you know, in the fight against the Confederacy

548
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: or something like that. Um. So yeah, I mean people

549
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: were remembered, but if they sort of exemplified the values

550
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: of the time. Well, And the thing is that this

551
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: is still a conversation that's going on in terms of

552
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: gender representation in obituary theories, because it was either earlier

553
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: this year or in when The New York Times featured

554
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,239
Speaker 1: this prominent obituary of this leading female scientists whose name

555
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: is escaping me at the moment. But the lead was

556
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: all about this beef strong enough that and it brought

557
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: up this entire conversation, and some people started actually doing

558
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: some digging looking at who the Times continues to dedicate

559
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: their obituaries to. And it's still is very much the

560
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: realm of white men. So especially because you interviewed um

561
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: Ka Powell, this well known obituary writer, and you even

562
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: mentioned too that um they're trying to, you know, pay

563
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: more attention to people who in addition to white men.

564
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: Um So does does gender parity matter? Though? Because I

565
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: remember reading about this whole obituary gender gap and thinking, well,

566
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: that's such a big deal, like this big deal. Yeah,

567
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: I think it matters o bit serve as records of

568
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: the lives that we wish to remember, As you know,

569
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: you said a few moments ago, Caroline, and and and so,

570
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: who gets remembered matters. Uh. I got some figures from

571
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: Mother Jones magazine. Two thousand twelve, The Washington Post published

572
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: obituaries for eighteen women and forty eight men, The l

573
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: A Times thirty six women and a hundred fourteen men,

574
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: and of course the New York Times, about which this

575
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: whole around which, this whole kerfuffle kind of began one

576
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: d eight men to twenty nine women. And you could

577
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: look at the and the argument has been made that

578
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: the men who died and who were covered had all

579
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: these great accomplishments in like the nineteen fifties through nineteen seventies,

580
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: which was a time when men were largely the ones

581
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: making waves in the world. So it's like, well, of

582
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: course we're going to cover them. But then you could

583
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: also look at the definition of making waves, I think, right,

584
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: so like in what sphere and what of those women

585
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: who received little recognition in their time for their work

586
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: in politics and literature, in the arts or wherever, but

587
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: still made a big difference. And uh, you know, shouldn't

588
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: we recognize them too well? And at least there be

589
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: strong enough, you know, at the very least. I mean,

590
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: might be a scientist, but um, but she can cook

591
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. And then there's the whole question of

592
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: whether or not this this idea is even important anymore

593
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: because newspapers are dying out right. But while we're seeing

594
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: a transition from print to sort of the online world

595
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: in many ways, or you know, we don't really know

596
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: where things are going. It's kind of an exciting time. Um,

597
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: the O bit isn't going anywhere. I think about a

598
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: couple of years ago when one of my favorite writers

599
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: was actually David Rakoff died. Uh. I wasn't even thinking

600
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: consciously when I went to my computer and like found

601
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: everything I could find that was written about him, every

602
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: single thing. And I wasn't thinking I am looking for obituaries,

603
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to find every single piece that

604
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: was written on him. Um. And that was sort of like,

605
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: and I think that we all do that for our

606
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: heroes or for people that were fascinated by. And while

607
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: family written obituaries are great in their own way, like

608
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: if you're if you're doing some research and you want

609
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: to find out certain you know you can you can

610
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 1: find out certain piece of information, there's also something about

611
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: the journalist written obituary story crafted by a professional writer

612
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: who had no stake in what was going on in

613
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: these people's lives. Who could, you know, write a story

614
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: with a beginning, a middle, and an end and what

615
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: details that person chooses to include. And you know, it's

616
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: different from a Facebook page. It's different from somebody's website

617
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: that they leave behind. Um, it's you know, a story

618
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: written by a third person. And I think that in

619
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: some ways we're always going to be interested in finding

620
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: those stories, whatever form they take. Well. And how many

621
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: times have we referenced women's obituaries in our podcast research.

622
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: I mean, that's where we've found so many details about

623
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: people's lives that you aren't going to find just on

624
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: a timeline of their accomplishments or a basic professional bio

625
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: or like you said, some kind of family eulogy. So,

626
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: I mean it's definitely been useful for for us with

627
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you as well. So it seems

628
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: like death itself has become increasingly private and for families,

629
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: for individuals. And so why do you think that is?

630
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: Are we more afraid of death and dying than we

631
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: used to be? Are we just do we just feel

632
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: weird about it? I think it is simply due to

633
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: lack of familiarity. Uh, if we go back again to

634
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, you know, people experienced death a lot

635
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: more frequently. Um, you know, I could expect you know,

636
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: by the age of thirty or so, two have had

637
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: twelve children and then like you know, four of them

638
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: had lived, and that kind of thing pre germ theory

639
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: sort of the bad old days, and I wouldn't want

640
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: to go back to the times. But at the same time,

641
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: death was a part of life. It was a part

642
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: of what you expected to happen to you. Nowadays, I

643
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: really think that it's not what we expect to happen

644
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 1: to us. It's not part of what we talk about

645
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 1: when we talk about the experience of our lifetimes. Um.

646
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: You know, American values are of uh, you know, ambition

647
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: and winning and youth and just sort of this this

648
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 1: this pursuit of success and and death isn't a part

649
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: of that. And it's interesting. So I talked about an

650
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: etiquette manual from the eighteen hundreds which had this very

651
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: thick section on what to do when death happened to

652
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: you and how to treat other people who were going

653
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: through this phase. You can compare that with another etiquette

654
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: manual that I found from the early nineteen twenties written

655
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: by this woman named Lillian Eichler, and the emphasis throughout

656
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 1: her chapter and her etiquette manual on death and grieving

657
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: is how to make sure, basically that you don't embarrass

658
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: other people with your displays of grief. Um, she even goes,

659
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: and she goes so far as to talk about like

660
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: these out outmoded Victorian ways of outrageous displays of grief

661
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: are are you know, they're unfashionable and they're unseemly for

662
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: people of certain classes. And she also says that you know,

663
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: if you are planning to go to a funeral but

664
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: you don't think you're going to be able to quote

665
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: control your grief, you should consider not going. And although

666
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: I read that and I was just like, WHOA, you're

667
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: extreme woman, I think to some extent those ideas are

668
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: still with us. Grief belongs in certain places but not

669
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: in others. It belongs in funeral homes and cemeteries, but

670
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't belong in the roadside memorial on my drive

671
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: to Smoothie King. I shouldn't have to see that on

672
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 1: the on my drive to my children's birthday party, Thank

673
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: you very much. And I think it's something that were

674
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: we all kind of struggle with. Uh, you know, back

675
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: in the day, when somebody died, you knew how to

676
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: treat them because it's something that you had been through

677
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: many times yourself, and it's something you had been taught. Nowadays,

678
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: when we experience lost, what do we do? We take

679
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 1: a few months or a few weeks off of work

680
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: and then we return. Not when people don't know how

681
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 1: to talk to us, it's kind of awkward and weird,

682
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: and then you're expected to behave just as if everything

683
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: is fine, and and yeah, so yeah, I don't. I

684
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: think it is more private, and it's simply because it's

685
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: it's something we may go to the age of thirty

686
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: forty five, or we experience sort of significant catastrophic loss ourselves,

687
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: and that's not the way it used to be. And

688
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: I don't think we need to just like keep lots

689
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: of blame upon ourselves. It's just the way it is now.

690
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: But it's it's good that we're starting to I think

691
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: we're starting to have more conversations about death and and grieving.

692
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: We're seeing a lot more conversations out in in media,

693
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: in UM, in American culture, and I think that that's

694
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: a good thing. Well, And what comes to mind in

695
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: terms of those, like you said, talking about UM seeing

696
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: more of these conversations out The first thing that came

697
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: to my mind was the fact that usually now I

698
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: first learned about a public figure dying on Twitter. I've

699
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: learned about friends deaths from Facebook, and now it's like

700
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: we're almost having to relearn this new morning etiquette. And

701
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: it is a public thing of like, well, do I tweet?

702
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: Do I do the hashtag? R I P? Do I

703
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: write a thoughtful Facebook posts? How do I do this?

704
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, maybe it is opening up

705
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: more conversations about it, but also sort of forcing us to,

706
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 1: um learn how to mourn in a new way. Yeah,

707
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: it's kind of the whole social the whole social media

708
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: thing is kind of opening up this brave new world. UM.

709
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: I think though to a large extent, we also have

710
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: our baby boomer brethren to think for the opening up

711
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: of this conversation. Uh. You know, this is the generation

712
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: that reinvented doing birth at home, that reinvented the way

713
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: that you could get married, like we're gonna get married

714
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: on a beach instead of in a church. And now

715
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: that many of them have experienced the loss of their

716
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: own parents, for example, and seeing how that went down,

717
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: they were looking ahead at their own deaths and wanting

718
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: to plan for those in the same way that they

719
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: planned for these other major rites of passage. And I

720
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: think that's one big reason that we're seeing the opening

721
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 1: up of this conversation. Yeah, it's funny. Preparing for this episode,

722
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: I was actually talking to my mother about this very topic,

723
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: and I mean, death and dying is not something that

724
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: I've talked to my parents about it all um, even

725
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: though they both have lost both of their parents. And

726
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: my mother whose age you you can't talk about in public.

727
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: I remember that, that's right, cannot reveal Sally's age. But yeah,

728
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: she was just joking about it and said that she

729
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: wants an open casket, and she not only wants an

730
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: open casket, but she wants to be sitting up with

731
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: her arms casually out to the sides, like she's sitting

732
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: in a hot tub in her bathrobe with a wine

733
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: glass in one hand. So I like Sally style, I'm

734
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 1: gonna honor her wishes and you can do that. Yeah

735
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: I've seen Yeah, yeah you can. Uh, I don't know

736
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: if you've seen articles like you can have. You can

737
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: decide that you want to be embalmed and posed your

738
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: funeral in a way that you would have been in life.

739
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: Perfect bathrobes. You and me in this podcast studio, Caroline,

740
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: let me know, now, just seal us up like we're

741
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: in an Egyptian tomb. Their headphones on smashing burying me

742
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: in my headphones. Well, Kate, I'm really curious to know

743
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: whether writing American Afterlife as altered your perception of death

744
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: and how you wish to be mourned in many ways.

745
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: I am still figuring it out because it's like the

746
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: biggest thing that we can conceive of. And I know

747
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: that I wrote this book partly out of neurotic fear

748
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 1: of losing the people I love, and I haven't gotten

749
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: over that. I haven't reached like this kind of zen

750
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,479
Speaker 1: state that a lot of people, funeral professionals and people

751
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: who work in areas of death and dying seemed to

752
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: have reached. Um, haven't reached that state. But at the

753
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: same time, I'm in my thirties and I think if

754
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: I hadn't gone on this adventure, there's no way I

755
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: would have done any planning for my own inevitable demise.

756
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 1: But I have. And it's because of all these stories

757
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: that I've heard from people about people who didn't you know,

758
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: and people who didn't talk about what they on it

759
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: or tell people where important documents were. And that's a

760
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: really rough thing for people to be left not only

761
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: with uh their mourning and grief and whatever complicated feelings

762
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: may arise there, but also with tons of work to

763
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: do and uh sort of you know, hunting down of

764
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: documents and that kind of thing and trying to figure

765
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: out what so and so wanted in these moments. UM.

766
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, I have made those plans, and along with

767
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: my husband, and not that I think that I'm also

768
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: such an important figure in this in this world, but

769
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: I've actually because I've talked to so many people, um

770
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: who have gone sort of every different route in terms

771
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: of memorialization, from traditional funerals to direct cremation to green

772
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: burial to having ashes made into LPs or I haven't

773
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 1: talked to those people because they're dead, but they're talked

774
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: to their loved ones who have survived. UM. And for

775
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: every single one of those decisions, people have told me

776
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: stories about like how they were horrible and how they

777
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: were just you know, really like UM scarring, and they

778
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: wish they hadn't done it that way. And then I've

779
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: talked to other people who have done the same thing,

780
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: who said, like this so cathartic and this is what

781
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: our family needed. Um. And so I went into this

782
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: project with sort of opinions and really judge the opinions

783
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: as we all have about different methods of memorialization. I

784
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: thought certain things were weird and certain things were cool. Um,

785
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: but I don't feel that way anymore because for every option,

786
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: much as anybody may want to judge them, it's it's

787
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 1: right for somebody out there. And so for that reason,

788
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 1: although I'm not I don't want to elevate my own

789
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: sense of importance in this whole realm. I've actually decided

790
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: not to really be public about what our own choices

791
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: have been, um, just because I don't even want to

792
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: even begin to take on any kind of appearance of bias.

793
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: But um, it is definitely like a brave new world

794
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: of pctions out there, and if you want to be

795
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: set up with your microphone and headphones, you can do it. Excellent.

796
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: I'll tell Sally that the whole propt up drinking our

797
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: wine into eternity can happen. It's an option. Well, Kate Sweet,

798
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. Um,

799
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: can you just let folks know where they can find

800
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: out more about American afterlife encounters and the customs of morning,

801
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: which I do highly recommend. It's a great read. Yeah, absolutely,

802
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: um My website. Folks can certainly go to my website,

803
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: which is American Afterlife Book dot com. It's published by

804
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: University of Georgia Press, so you can head on over there.

805
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've got a few more like speaking engagements

806
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: and things like that this fall, and I would love

807
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: to say, hey, well, now we want to hear from

808
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 1: our listeners about their experiences with death rituals as well,

809
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: particularly since it is the Halloween season. Send us an email.

810
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: It can be spooky if you wanted to be mom

811
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: Stuff at how Stuff Works dot com is our email address.

812
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast. Our

813
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

814
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So I've got a

815
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: Facebook message here from Mina. She writes, I love your podcast.

816
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: Can't get enough writing to you about the grandmother hypothesis.

817
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm a single mom, mid thirties and relies significantly on

818
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: support from my dad. He lives out of state, but

819
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: it has designed his life in such a way that

820
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: he travels to Seattle to visit or stay with us

821
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: for a week out of every month. He works as

822
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: a musician, playing at assisted living in memory care facilities.

823
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: I feel so incredibly fortunate that he does this for

824
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: us every month. As a grandparent, my dad helps in

825
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: so many ways with my son. He provides a playful

826
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: and intelligent male role model and never leaves a question unanswered.

827
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,959
Speaker 1: He helps with homework, helps him get to his extracurriculus

828
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: while he's in town, plays music at his school and

829
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: scouting events, cooks and cleans, and helps me with anything

830
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 1: extra that I need done around the house but don't

831
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: have time for. He also allows me the ability to

832
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: schedule dates while he's in town, with no need to

833
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: worry about a sitter. As a single mom who works

834
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: at a large tech company, the support my dad gives

835
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 1: me is so incredibly valuable. I don't think I could

836
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: attach a price to what it's worth to feel the

837
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: type of love and commitment I have from him. As

838
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 1: my son grows older, he and my Dad's here many

839
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 1: an inside joke now, and when my dad isn't around,

840
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: I often feel his presence from my son. Many of

841
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: my friends would say he is a fourty year old

842
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: with a ten year old body. He is basically a young,

843
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: ginger version of my dad. Thank you for your amazing

844
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: podcast and Thank you, Lena. Well, I have a letter

845
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: here from Rachel about an episode that was published a

846
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: while back, but she is just now getting to it

847
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: and she wanted to talk about it. Um it's our

848
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: podcast on endometriosis. Uh. She says, I was diagnosed with

849
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: stage three indometrius this last year, two weeks before my

850
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: twenty four birthday. I count myself super lucky was discovered

851
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: when it was. I had gone to several doctors with

852
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: pain issues years prior, but I was always told it

853
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: was in my head or that I had constipation. In May, though,

854
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: they found a cyst and finally agreed to remove it

855
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 1: in October because it's consistent growth made them think it

856
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 1: was a tumor. I won't go into all the glory

857
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: details of what they found during surgery, but it was

858
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: really ugly. They weren't able to safely remove all the lesions.

859
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: My husband and I have been given about two years

860
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: in which they think maybe I have a chance to

861
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: become pregnant, but I've been told to expect and early

862
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: hysterectomy and other radical treatments at the end of it.

863
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: But while this disease is alarming, what I find most

864
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: disturbing is how people in my generation don't know about it.

865
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: I had no clue the condition even existed until I

866
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: was diagnosed. I would have never thought to ask about

867
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: it or suggested to earlier doctors. My only friends who

868
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: had heard about it were either one studying medicine or

869
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: the ones who personally knew someone who had it, But

870
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: most of them had no idea what the condition actually was.

871
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: I can't believe Indometrius this wasn't covered insects ed and

872
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: people aren't made more publicly aware. Sometimes I feel like

873
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: this diagnosis made me a member of a secret society.

874
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: So seriously, thank you for doing a podcast on this

875
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 1: awful disease and getting the word out. The more girls

876
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: who hear about it, the more who can ask questions

877
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 1: about it to their doctors, and maybe hopefully, the more

878
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: who can start getting treatment earlier versus later. So thank you, Rachel,

879
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: and best of luck, and thanks to everybody who's written

880
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 1: into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com

881
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 1: is our email address and for links to all of

882
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: our social media, as well as all of our blogs,

883
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: videos and podcasts, including this one with more info about

884
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: Kate Sweeney. So you can check out her book American Afterlife.

885
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: Head on over to Stuff Mom Never told You dot

886
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

887
00:51:52,680 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: Is It how stuff Works dot com, Fox,