1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's crash Course. The race to control the Arctic. 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Alaska has been an object of fascination, exploration, and exploitation 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: for nearly two centuries, but its most inhospitable reaches. Those 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: that creep toward the Arctic circle mile by frozen mile, 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: have managed to hold onto their secrets for a very 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: long time. Ice, plunging temperatures and brutal tundras have kept 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: outsiders at bay. That's all shifting now. Climate change is 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: warmly Arctics formidable barriers sparking at geopolitical and commercial foot race. 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: The US, China, and Russia are scrambling for access to 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: precious resources like oil, gold, and rare earth metals. Russia 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: is ramping up its military presence in the region, China 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: is now a self described near Arctic nation, and the 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: US is rushing to gain what its military describes as 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: Arctic dominance. Conoco Phillips, the US oil giant that is 17 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: Alaska's largest producer of crude oil, recently won White House 18 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: approval to forge ahead with its Willow drilling project on 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: Alaska's North slope. Meanwhile, Alaska's fisheries, which account for more 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: annual catch than the rest of the US's other coastlines combined, 21 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: are becoming increasingly stressed. Average Alaskans, wrestling with the twin 22 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: threats of food insecurity and their attachment to storied livelihoods 23 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: tied to fishing, are balking at further entrenchment of large 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: commercial operators. There is, as they say, a story here. 25 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: Joining me today is Liam Denning. Liam is an energy 26 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: and climate columnist for Bloomberg Opinion, and he's pulled off 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: something very rare and very hard to do. He has 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: repeatedly traveled to the Arctic to tell this tale. Liam 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: is a wonderful writer and a keen observer of money, 30 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: power and people. Liam, welcome to crash Course, great spage. 31 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: So work on all this has so far resulted in 32 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: three stellar features adorned with beautiful photos from Louis Palou, 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: an award winning photographer who has spent years covering the region. 34 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: You've written one about the military ramp up in the Arctic, 35 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: one about energy exploration, and another recently published about Alaska's fisheries. 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: So we'll follow suit and build this episode around that troika. 37 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: But first things first, how and when did you decide 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: to go to the Arctic and nail down all of this? 39 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: Well, Tim, as you know, this goes back quite a 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: long way. Louis and I, who've known each other for 41 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: I guess about fifteen years now, first began discussing this 42 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: seven or eight years ago, I believe, and I began 43 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 2: discussing it with you and Bloomberg in general, I think 44 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, and we actually had it teed up 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: just before COVID hit, which then inevitably shut everything down. 46 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: And then about a year ago, thinking we could pull 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: it off once again, we began to reach out to 48 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 2: the US Army and other key players in Alaska. And 49 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: to be honest, I'm pinching myself thinking that we actually 50 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 2: managed to pull it off. It's been quite the logistical lift. 51 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: Well, and you had to reach out to all of 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: those stakeholders, the military, the energy companies, local fishing communities 53 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: in order to embed yourself to sort of get there, 54 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: buy in to have you come up there and spend time. 55 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: And then you had to figure out how to get there, 56 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: how to fly there, how to arrange all the various 57 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: legs of each flight that took you there, which was 58 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: its own sort of logistical nightmare, wasn't it. That's right? 59 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 2: I mean, I think one of the things you learned 60 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: quite quickly is that Alaska is a US state, but 61 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: it's not the kind of place you can just rock 62 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: up to and look around. You know, it's vast. A 63 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: lot of it isn't covered by a road network, particularly 64 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: for example, the North Slope where the oil operations are, 65 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: you physically just can't get there. You have to, you know, 66 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: negotiate access, and similar with a lot of the Alaska 67 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: Native villages out in the west of the state. You 68 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: need to get buy in before you really show up. 69 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: And why was it important you to go through all that? 70 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think this goes back to the original reason, 71 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: you know, Louis and I wanted to do this project was, 72 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: you know, we felt that the Arctic is in some 73 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: ways a kind of a grand blank canvas where we 74 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: tend to project our narratives onto it, our ideas of 75 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: what the Arctic is, and we felt that really to 76 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: do it justice and to show our readers what it's 77 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,559 Speaker 2: really like there, you have to get on the ground. 78 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 2: You have to go and see what it's like just 79 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 2: to even get to the place, what it's like to 80 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: feel the cold and the extreme temperatures there, what it's like, frankly, 81 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: just to bulk up in five layers of clothing and 82 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: try to do anything there. And so that element of 83 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: reality was what we were going for. 84 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: I'll just make a note to our listeners here. We'll 85 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: have links all of Liam's stories in the notes to 86 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: the episode. There. You'll find Louis Polo's gorgeous photography there, 87 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: which will really give you a sense of the land 88 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: and the environment that Liam covered and that they work 89 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: very hard to overcome in order to get these incredible stories. 90 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the military foot race that's in 91 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: motion there. You embedded with one of the airborne divisions 92 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: of the US Army and watch them train. You talk 93 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: with them about their strategy in the region. Talk a 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: little bit about that. What is on the US military's 95 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: mind right now and why are they ramping up their 96 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: commitment to the Arctic. 97 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the things you realize about 98 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: Alaska's relationship with the rest of the US is that 99 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 2: the Lower forty eight tends to remember that Alaska's there 100 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: when it's feeling frightened about something. The classic example is 101 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: the oil shock of the nineteen seventies when suddenly we decided, 102 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: you know, we had to develop Alaskan oil. And similarly 103 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: with the Cold War, and what's happened with Alaska so 104 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: far this century is it became kind of a military 105 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: backwater during the War on Terror, kind of a staging post, frankly, 106 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 2: for divisions that were cycling in and out of Afghanistan. 107 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: And a few things have changed that in recent times. 108 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: One is China's assertion of what it euphemistically calls near 109 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: Arctic status, which I just think is a gorgeous phrase. 110 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 1: China is so big it could probably be near almost anything. 111 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: I mean, exactly near South China, see near Japan, exactly 112 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: near India, Russia. 113 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: And I think that began to ring alarm bells in Washington. 114 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 2: And at the same time the War on Terror itself 115 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 2: was winding down for various reasons, we also saw Russia 116 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: reopening its military bases, a lot of which had closed down. 117 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: These are the ones in the Arctic, as part of 118 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: President Vladimir Putin's general kind of turn northward towards the Arctic, 119 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 2: particularly for its energy resources, and so I think the 120 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: US is undergoing something of a Sputnik moment. It's remembering 121 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: that Alaska is there, that it's a strategic salient, and 122 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: that it is surrounded by potential ad or outright adversaries, 123 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: you know, who might want to mess with that region. 124 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: And so they've decided to reconstitute a division there, an 125 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: army division. The eleventh their born, and those are the 126 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: guys we went and spent time on a mountain side 127 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: with earlier this year. 128 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: I want to ask you some more specifics about that. 129 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: But you know, as you're describing all of these forces 130 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: in motion around the Arctic right now, it's very reminiscent 131 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: of the Great Game of the nineteenth century when European 132 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: powers with scrambled to control Africa and parts of Asia. 133 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: Of course, a game made it seem far less consequential 134 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: than it was, but it was this sort of jostling 135 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: for geographic power that hasn't really occurred very baldly like 136 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: that since then. And it's certainly in play right now 137 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: in the Arctic, and it does sort of capture the 138 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: imagination on so many levels, because it's fast, because it's unknown, 139 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: because it's so far away because there's this idea that 140 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: there are riches at stake, because there's local populations who 141 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: are going to get displaced inevitably, or one hopes at 142 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: least not brutally or tragically. And it's unusual to me 143 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: in that regard. There aren't that many forums left like 144 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: this on the planet, that's right. 145 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: I mean, Alaska is called the last Frontier for a reason, 146 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: and in some ways it is kind of a throwback 147 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: to an earlier rage. I mean, Alaska as a state 148 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: has existed, particularly in the imagination of the Lower forty eight. 149 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: Let's face it, really on two strategic dimensions. One is 150 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: as a frontier facing other nations. It was obviously territory 151 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: that was purchased from the Russians originally, but also as 152 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 2: basically as a storehouse for commodities, you know, lumber, fish, zinc, 153 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: oil especially, And that's generally how we've tended to think 154 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: of Alaska in the Lower forty eight. And we have 155 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: to remember it is the least visited state of all fifty. 156 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 2: For most Americans, it's a place they will never go to. 157 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: And originally it was Seward's folly when Lincoln, Secretary of State, 158 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: made the purchase. Everyone thought that the Lincoln White House 159 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: overspent and they'd never get the money back, so that 160 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: proved be wrong. Yeah, it took about a century, gets 161 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: a century, but there's still some unknown. So tell me 162 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: what is the US military's goal there? 163 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 2: So this is interesting because when I was there, I 164 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: tried to pin them down, you know, from privates right 165 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: the way up to Major General Brian Eifler, who commands 166 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: the eleventh there born on what the exact mission was. 167 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: This is an unsatisfying answer, somewhat vacant broad because you 168 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: really don't know what the threat to Alaska might be. 169 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: It seems incomprehensible that anyone would actually try to invade 170 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: Alaska or take territory. It would probably end up being 171 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: the biggest search and rescue operation in the history of 172 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: the planet, just in terms of surviving. And that gets 173 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: to really what their mission is at this moment. It's 174 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: to train troops to survive. You know, when you get 175 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: there and you see the not just the grandeur of 176 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: the place, but just the sheer desolate aspect of it, 177 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: the emptiness, it becomes clear to you that having anyone 178 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: operate there requires all sorts of training just to live, 179 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: not just to manage the cold and wearing your clothes 180 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: properly and all that kind of thing, but making sure 181 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 2: you eat enough, making sure you drink enough, making sure 182 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: you don't use fingernail polish on your fingernails, because that's 183 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: how you check for frostbite, and you can't do that 184 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: if you're wearing lacquer. There are all sorts of things, 185 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: and Louie and I, to a very minimal extent, compared 186 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: to the soldiers who were training, had to do a 187 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: little bit of that ourselves. You have to reimagine how 188 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 2: you're living day to day and take care of the basics. 189 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: And I think that is the army's mission right now. 190 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: It's to regain a muscle that was lost maybe twenty 191 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: or thirty years ago, around the time of the end 192 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 2: of the Cold War. So that as and when something happens, 193 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: whether it's sabotage, whether it's a foreign fishing fleet showing 194 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: up where they're not supposed to, whether it's a spy 195 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: balloon showing up when it's not supposed to, that they 196 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: have people on the ground both acting as a credible 197 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: deterrent but able to deal with those things as they arise. 198 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: So is the strategy reactive or proactive? In other words, 199 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: is the military responding to what they perceive as Chinese 200 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: and Russian incursions or are they anticipating that Russia and 201 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: China are going to continue to scramble for stakeholdings in 202 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: the north around the Arctic, and the US better get 203 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: busy and build its foundations out in Alaska. 204 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: It leans much towards the latter, I think. I think 205 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: the third element that's happening here, and you'll see this 206 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: in the Army's public documents on the strategy, is climate change. 207 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: The ground is literally shifting beneath their feet. The Arctic 208 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: is warming faster than the rest of the planet, and 209 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: you know, when you're there, you can see it almost 210 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: happening in real time. I visited coastal villages where you 211 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: can see chunks of the land just falling into the 212 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: river or falling into the bearing sea and sitting there 213 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 2: almost like gravestones. You can see like. 214 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: Big chunks of like glacial flows fracturing and falling off 215 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: into the sea. 216 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: Not glacial flows, I mean, what I saw was literally 217 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: riverbank and coastal earth that had fallen into the water, 218 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: you know, And that's because we're seeing a combination of 219 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: sea level rising but also the perma frost gradually melting 220 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,479 Speaker 2: and melting and melting. And since most of these places, 221 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: particularly in the western and northern part of the state, 222 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: are built on permafrost, I mean when you go there, 223 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: you see the houses all up on stilts. I saw 224 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: an entire basketball court constructed on stilts in this village 225 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 2: for the children to enjoy. 226 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: So it's more like a landslide, yes into the water. 227 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: Yes, And actually, I think you bring up an important point. 228 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 2: We often see commentary on the Arctic portrayed as a 229 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: scramble for things, you know, a scramble for resources, a 230 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: scramble for influence. No one scrambles in the Arctic. It 231 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: takes a long time to do anything. I think the 232 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: better analogy is subsidence or encroachment. Things are changing, the 233 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 2: physical landscape is changing. The pressures on the people there 234 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: are changing. The great powers around the region are changing 235 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 2: their stance, And that's really what Not only the army 236 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 2: is trying to plan for it, or at least ready 237 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: itself for but frankly, everyone who lives there. 238 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: How many troops does the US have up there. 239 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: Now has roughly twelve thousand. 240 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: Twelve thousand seems to me like a relatively modest commitment, 241 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: but it's nonetheless more significant than having ten people sitting 242 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: in a house somewhere. 243 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: That's true, and I think, you know, one way of 244 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: thinking about it is the entire population of Alaska is 245 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 2: smaller than San Francisco. It's about seven hundred and fifty 246 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: thousand people, so in terms of troops to population, it's 247 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: pretty high. I also found out that Alaska has the 248 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: highest number of veterans related to the population. It is 249 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 2: a military outpost in so many respects. The Army ran 250 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: it for the first ten years when it became part 251 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: of the United States, and everywhere you go, you know, 252 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: you land at Fairbanks, the first people you see are 253 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: troops getting off planes going to the nearby bases. It 254 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: was obviously a frontline for the Cold War and is 255 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: emerging once again as a potential frontline. 256 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: And as you accompanied the troops on some of their 257 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: training runs, I remember from one of the stories you 258 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: described that some of them were just learning how to 259 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: basically embed themselves in the snow in white camouflage gear 260 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: so they could look invisible. So they were learning how 261 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: to become invisible in a landscape that almost invites invisibility, 262 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: and it had this kind of redundant quality to it 263 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: but also necessary. 264 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: That's right. And one of the really interesting aspects about 265 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: it is if you go to a country like Finland, 266 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: which basically wrote the book on winter warfare, they actually 267 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: select their Arctic troops from certain regions of the country 268 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: to better align with natural skills around skiing and that 269 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: sort of thing. That is not the case with Alaska. 270 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: I met troops the woman you mentioned who I attracted 271 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: when she was doing camouflage training. She was from Florida. 272 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: I met a sergeant from South Texas who says that 273 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: when he first got stationed there, he would get frostbite 274 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: all the time wandering around outside, like picking up tools 275 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: and that sort of thing. These are, in many ways 276 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: really raw recruits for that environment. Half them had never 277 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: even put on a set of skis before. 278 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: So what's the attraction to them to go there. 279 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: It's interesting for most of them. Certainly, the people I 280 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: met on that training course, most of them had volunteered. 281 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: They hadn't been told you have to go here. They 282 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: had volunteered for this leadership course. And I think It's 283 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: that classic attraction of going somewhere that's out of the 284 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: way that otherwise you would never get to, and putting 285 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: your body through that kind of environment, frankly, putting your 286 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: mind through that kind of environment. And that was another 287 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 2: thing that you know, I really gathered by being there 288 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: on the ground. Even during my six days there, the 289 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 2: isolation and the darkness kind of began to get to 290 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: me by the end of it. If you're stationed there 291 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: for months on end, the isolation, the darkness, and the 292 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: unrelenting nature of the weather, you know, the wind just 293 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 2: whipping through you every day, it really starts to prey 294 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: on the mind. And it was certainly something that came 295 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: up in a lot of conversations, the need to manage 296 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: that and to not sort of draw into a cocoon, 297 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: which I think is what can happen with a lot 298 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: of these troops. You know, when I was speaking to 299 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: Steve Decker, who is a retired US soldier who now 300 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: operates as a civilian trainer at the Northern Warfare Training Center, 301 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: he related a story from some years back, you know, 302 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: where he saw on the ground not just a soldier, 303 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: but an entire platoon. Mentally to the rigors of the place. 304 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: Let's listen to that sound bite. 305 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: And I come walking back to where my platoon was 306 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 3: and I look at him and there they're like maybe 307 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: fifty yards away from me, and all three of our 308 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 3: Occio sleds were sitting there, but the whole tune was 309 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: standing around them, just staring at them. And I'm looking 310 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 3: at them and I'm like, why aren't they setting up 311 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 3: their tents? And so I'm walking over there and they're 312 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 3: all just kind of just staring at it. It's like, 313 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 3: this is the means to take all this away, but 314 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: I cannot break out of this cocoon that I'm in 315 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 3: right now to do this. And I was just about 316 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 3: to say something when one of my more forceful squad 317 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 3: leaders blindsided me from the side and he comes like. 318 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 4: Froll people around, get their shit like that, and then 319 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 4: they started getting moving. But I watched it at a 320 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 4: lot that withdraw where people just they just withdraw within 321 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 4: themselves and they will not make. 322 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: Efforts to alleviate the pain that they're going through whatever. 323 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: And I've done it myself. 324 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: What kind of a military presence do the Chinese and 325 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: Russians have? 326 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 2: So Russia in so many ways is the Arctic whale. 327 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: It has the most territory, the most people, the most 328 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 2: economic activity, and the biggest military presence in the Arctic. 329 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 2: And in a way that's understandable. They have the biggest 330 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: physical presence in the arc. 331 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: They truly are in our nation. 332 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, whereas we are more a southern nation with an 333 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 2: Arctic fringe the best way to put it. So, their 334 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: military presence is big, both in scale and its elements. 335 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: For example, you know a lot of the strategic nuclear 336 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 2: fleet is based up in the Cola Peninsula close to Finland. 337 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: So Russia's presence is huge and is only going to 338 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 2: get bigger, in part because Putin has made it such 339 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 2: a central plank of his vision for what Russia will 340 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: be as a great power over the coming decades. You know, 341 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 2: that need to open up a northern sea route as 342 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: the ice melts, That need to export more oil and 343 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: gas from the Arctic coast as the old West Siberian 344 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: fields go into terminal decline. China, well, China's a bit different. 345 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: China isn't an Arctic nation. It's forays into the Arctic 346 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: right now mainly consist of the odd naval patrol, the 347 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: odd joint exercise with the Russians. They do have scientific 348 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: outposts throughout the Arctic, and you know, it's widely thought 349 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 2: that those are essentially dual use. But China clearly has 350 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: designs on the Arctic as an undergoverned space, to use 351 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: that phrase, particularly as waters that are outside of economic 352 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: zones become more navigable. China sees that as a place 353 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 2: where it can stake out a position, maybe send its 354 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: famous fishing fleets, and you know, become more of an 355 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:17,479 Speaker 2: Arctic power. 356 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: But as of yet this isn't something that anyone sees turning. 357 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: Heart no, but certainly if you read the Army's strategic papers, 358 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 2: I mean, the word China comes up more often than 359 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 2: your average Trump rally. It's very much front of mind. 360 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: In some ways. It's kind of strange. Although Russia is 361 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 2: the very present power, in some ways, China has feared more. 362 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: All right, on that noe, Let's take a break, Liam, 363 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: We'll hear from a sponsor, and then we'll come back 364 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: and talk about some of the commercial war games going 365 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: on up there. We're back with William Denning, a Bloomberg 366 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: opinion columnist who's been charting the rush to control the Arctic, 367 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: as told through his repeat visits to Alaska. So oil, oil, oil, 368 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: A lot of contemporary Alaskan history and geopolitics can be 369 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: looked at through that lens canon Liam. 370 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's particularly poignant right now, given 371 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: what's going on in the Middle East for us to 372 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: remember that Alaska's oil boom really is owed to the 373 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: Yong Kapo War. It was the Arab oil embargo that 374 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 2: followed that that essentially persuaded Congress and then President Nixon 375 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: to force through the construction of the transk Alaska Pipeline 376 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 2: and kick off a boom that you know eventually led 377 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: to Alaska during the nineteen eight is becoming the kind 378 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: of the shale power of that period, accounting for about 379 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 2: a quarter of US oil production. 380 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: As you noted one of your pieces, there's an ocean 381 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: of oil and gas rosen in place beneath the Arctic, 382 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: and I suppose the logic for the energy companies exploring 383 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: up there is that climate change is going to make 384 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: that less hard to get to or am I oversimplifying? 385 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is that horrible kind of doom loop going on. 386 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: As the ice melts, you open up more resources to exploit, 387 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 2: which then help more of the ice melt. That's definitely 388 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: going on. But I think it's important to remember that 389 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: the oil resources up there, and don't get me wrong, 390 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: all the estimates indicate there is a lot of oil 391 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: and gas in the Arctic. It's frozen in place, not 392 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: just by ice, but by its sheer remoteness. Going back 393 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: to that idea I had earlier on about the lower 394 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: forty eight, remembering Alaska when it's feeling anxious about the world. 395 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: That is what led to the oil boom in Alaska. 396 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: This is not a place that you would ordinarily really 397 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: want to go to get oil. It's really hard, it's 398 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 2: really expensive. Only the biggest players can go there. If 399 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: you get it wrong, it can be catastrophic. Shell famously 400 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 2: wrote off seven or eight billion dollar last decade trying 401 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 2: to get oil out of the Chuchise and got nothing. 402 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: So it's not just a question of as the ice melts, 403 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: we will develop more of it. It's also does it 404 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: make economic sense? Does it make sense on some other axes, 405 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 2: for example energy security. 406 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: You have this interesting little statistic in your piece that 407 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: I think onshore projects in Alaska can take about fifteen 408 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: years to sort of come to fruition offshore when you're 409 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: out in the water can take thirty years, and projects 410 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: elsewhere unless threatening climates can be anywhere from several months 411 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: to five years, depending on the scope of the project. 412 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: Is that right more or less? 413 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an estimate for the National Petroleum Council. That 414 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: is one of the things that I think prevents what 415 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: some people would call it a scramble for oil in 416 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: the Arctic. You know, if you're looking at a project 417 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: that's going to take fifty years or thirty years to 418 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: come to fruition, particularly at this moment in time, when 419 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: you know some people are estimating oil demand could peak 420 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,239 Speaker 2: this decade or next decade, it's very hard to get 421 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 2: a financier to sign off on that. 422 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: You spend a lot of time at Kuparak, a Carnico 423 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: Phillips project site, given all of these challenges. Why is 424 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: Carnical Phillips there. 425 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: Well, this will sound perhaps a little banal, it's there 426 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: because it's already there. With a lot of these big 427 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: oil provinces that were developed in response to the oil 428 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: shocks of the nineteen seventies, they were developed under a 429 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 2: very specific set of pressures and circumstances. Oil prices were 430 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 2: super high, so you could justify pretty much anything, and 431 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: you had governments prodding you in the back to get 432 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 2: this done in order to bring about energy security. Now, 433 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 2: the fact is Conico is already the largest player there, 434 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 2: and if you think about the Willow project, as you mentioned, 435 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: which is the new one that's being developed. You know, 436 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: if you think about that, Konko is going to spend 437 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: something like seven or eight billion dollars on that project. 438 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 2: It's a reasonably sized oil project, but certainly it's not 439 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: a giant project. But the reason they can do it 440 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: is because it's only a few miles from where they 441 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 2: already have investments made in pipelines, gravel minds, that sort 442 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 2: of thing. 443 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: So it's incremental. 444 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: Right. If you were a new player, it would be 445 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: almost unfathomable to think that you might just go in 446 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 2: there and develop that from scratch. 447 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: You also noted in your piece that the energy companies 448 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: face the same environmental and climactic challenges that the military faces. 449 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: Equipment breaks down, it's hard to get people to live there, 450 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. Another thing that's in play, obviously too, 451 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: is that there has been this sense that the fossil 452 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: fuel industry has plateaued or has been peaking as there's 453 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: a push toward green The irony in Alaska is the 454 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: climate change that fossil fuels help engender is making it 455 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: easier for fossil fuel exploration to proceed apace in Alaska. 456 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: But is there any thinking, even a veteran player like Conico, 457 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: that all of the money they're spending and all these 458 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: projects they're working on now have a shorter half life 459 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: than maybe they did a decade ago because of the 460 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: green energy push? Or is the oil that's being extracted 461 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: up there going to continue to be necessary and desired 462 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: and purchased for a long time. 463 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: I think if you ask the oil companies, they will 464 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: say yes, for a couple of reasons. One is, generally 465 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: they view oil's longevity in the local energy system as 466 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: being longer than some others, particularly environmentalists would think, or 467 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: like I think. The other thing is it comes back 468 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 2: to that issue of incumbency. You know, a company like 469 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: Conico can produce a barrel of oil from Alaska for 470 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: thirty bucks or less. You know, the oil price right 471 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 2: now is ninety bucks. So for them, they look at 472 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: that it's in a politically stable part of the world, 473 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 2: the US, And they say, okay, well, even if oil 474 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: demand does peak and plateau and decline, who's going to 475 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: be the last producer standing? Is it going to be 476 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: US in Alaska or some high cost producer in some 477 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 2: unstable part of the world. 478 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: They can still do it profitably, so they'll still. 479 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 2: Do it, that's right. And I think, you know, as 480 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: President Biden's approval of the project earlier this year, the 481 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 2: Willow Project, which was controversial, I think as even he 482 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 2: recognized with his Green Agenda, you still need stable incumbent 483 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 2: energy supplies to get you to the point where the 484 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: new energy systems we're building now can take over. 485 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: And as the US's own strategic reserve WANs as other 486 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: wars are gang fought, what about the indigenous communities that 487 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: are sort of caught in the crosshairs of either military 488 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: incursions or commercial exploration. We'll talk about that more as 489 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: we transition to the next segment. But what kind of 490 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: fissures is that And raising. 491 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: This in some ways was the most fascinating aspect of 492 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: not just the energy feature, but also the fisheries feature. 493 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 2: Is I think coming from the lower forty eight. We 494 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: tend to have this rather outdated, almost colonial view of 495 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: Alaska Natives as these subsistence fishers and hunters living off 496 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: the land and entirely separated from you know what, we 497 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: would call it westernized or industrialized economy, and that's really 498 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 2: far from the truth. If you go to the North 499 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: Slope where the ore production is. So the North Slope 500 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: is an area, it's bigger than thirty nine states, it's 501 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: only got about eleven thousand people living in it, which 502 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: would feel about half a Madison Square garden. Ninety percent 503 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 2: of their borough revenue comes from taxing oil production. Their 504 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 2: whole lifestyle, everything from the fuel to running the snow 505 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 2: machines they use to hunt or to fuel the boats 506 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: they use to go fishing, the revenue to build housing, 507 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: to run healthcare programs, it all comes from oil. And 508 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: that's what makes the energy transition in a place like 509 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: that particularly acute as an issue. They recognize that the 510 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: warming climate is changing their physical environment. They recognize it's 511 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: affecting the fish, it's affecting the caribou, but they also 512 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: recognize that without that revenue, their way of life is 513 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: pretty much over. They would probably have to evacuate a 514 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: lot of those people if you switched off the oil 515 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 2: revenue tomorrow. So it's just a very difficult tension that 516 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 2: they have to deal with. 517 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: We're going to dig into that deeper after the break 518 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: and want to just stop for a moment. How to 519 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: hear from one of our sponsors, and we'll come right back. 520 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: We're back with William Denning, who's educating us about the Arctic. 521 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: Liam we focused on the military and energy consideration shaping 522 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: the new Arctic land rush. Let's now talk about fish. 523 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: Why do fish figure so prominently in Alaska's economy and 524 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: cultural identity. 525 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: Well, you know what's really interesting is when we first 526 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: conceived this project, fishing was something in the back of 527 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: our mind, but it was not one of the topics 528 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: we were really going to address up front. But as 529 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: we did reporting on the other features, all sorts of 530 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: people said, you've got to write about fish. Fishing is 531 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: a big topic here. It's important to Alaska for a 532 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 2: few reasons. One is it's just a very big industry. 533 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 2: It's the biggest private sector employer in the state. It's 534 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: the biggest coastal fishery in the US by a large margin. 535 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: But also it's integral to the way of life, particularly 536 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: in rural Alaska, particularly in Native villages, simply because they 537 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: rely on fishing to eat, to live in some ways, 538 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: to give meaning to their life and provide a sense. 539 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: Of community, as they have for yards. 540 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: For at least ten thousand years. And that really came 541 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: home to me in a meeting with elders and village 542 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 2: members in a little village called Quatlook in western Alaska, 543 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: where one of the elder is a woman named Liz Dylan, 544 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 2: quite simply and poignantly laid out the importance of fishing 545 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 2: as told to her by her ancestors, by her elders 546 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 2: back in the day. 547 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: And you've got a clip of that, so let's have 548 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: a quick listen. 549 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 5: Our elders shoes to say, fish will be always living 550 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 5: in the waters. They come once a year and they 551 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 5: come back the next year. But the fish will be 552 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 5: in the waters for us to catch and to eat 553 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 5: and harvest, and they will never they will never disuppair 554 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 5: until the end of the world. 555 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: What are some of the mean species of fish that 556 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: inhabit the waters around Alaska, because that's actually a factor 557 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: in all of this. 558 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, so, the big one economically is actually fished 559 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 2: far out of sight of land in Alaska, and that's 560 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: Alaskan pollock. Pollock is a sort of a codlike pretty 561 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: low value but fairly an offensive white fish, which you'll 562 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: find in things like McDonald's Phillia fish sandwiches. The other 563 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: big I think more iconic species that people would tend 564 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: to think of as king salmon, snow crab, king crab, halibut. 565 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: These are the fish that you might buy in the 566 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: supermarket anywhere in the US. 567 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: So Alaska is essentially the fishery that feeds fish to 568 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: the lower forty eight. 569 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: States, absolutely, and Alaskan pollock is interesting partly because you 570 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: will find it in things like school meals, that kind 571 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: of thing where you need a relatively cheap fish protein 572 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: just for sustenance. And the fisheries in Alaska are under 573 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: stress right now too, right, That's right, and that's why 574 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 2: so many people brought it up to us as we 575 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: were doing our reporting. It's also big reason why Representative 576 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,479 Speaker 2: Mary Peltola was elected in twenty twenty two in an upset, 577 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 2: you know, the first Democrat that Alaska had sent to 578 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 2: the House in fifty years, the first Alaska Native representative. Ever, 579 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: a big part of her platform was protecting the fisheries, 580 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: and she was also a pro willow She was pro 581 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: willow yes in part because she recognizes the importance of 582 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: that revenue for native communities. 583 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: So she's juggling these sort of tensions between one kind 584 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: of economic development and another one that also can overshadow 585 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: traditions and lifestyles and needs. That's right. 586 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 2: I mean it gets to that issue around Alaska, which 587 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: is I think, particularly in the lower forty eight, we 588 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: tend to think of Alaska as a giant national park 589 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 2: where you know, there's just polar bears roaming around and 590 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: nothing really happens. But you get there and you realize that, 591 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: you know, industrialization is a key feature of the Arctic economy, 592 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 2: in the Alaskan economy, it's hard to separate those things 593 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 2: out neatly. 594 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: Talk to me about the tensions between local and indigenous 595 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: fissures and big commercial operations. The troll, as you note 596 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: in one of your pieces, and I quote catching and 597 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: killing your own dinner, is one of the many things 598 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: that set Alaska's apart from the residents of most other states. 599 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So you know, when you go to these villages 600 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: This comes home to you just on the plane we 601 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: flew from Anchorage out to Bethel, which is the hub 602 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 2: of the Yukon cousco Quim Delta in western Alaska, and 603 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 2: on the plane there's more boxes of groceries than there 604 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: are suitcases. Because it costs a hell of a lot 605 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 2: to live out in western Alaska. I paid a visit 606 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 2: to the supermarket one day, and you can be paying 607 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: fifteen dollars for a lot for bread, ten dollars for 608 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: a quarter of milk, eighty dollars for a box of diapers. 609 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 2: Living there without living off the land is frankly impossible. 610 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: So as we've seen in the past, beginning about a 611 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: decade ago, when regulators come into these villages and say 612 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: the salmon run is very low this year, you're going 613 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 2: to have to stop fishing for a couple of weeks, 614 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 2: a month, a whole season. It's an existential threat. It's 615 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: not just oh my hobby got blocked off for the summer. 616 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 2: What am I going to do now? This is people 617 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 2: who fish the dinner literally out of their backyards and 618 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: then smoke it, store it up for the winter to 619 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 2: get them through those months. And if that is taken away, 620 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: they lose a sense of food security, they lose importantly 621 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 2: a sense of food sovereignty and that idea of controlling 622 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: their own destiny. I think it's particularly important in these 623 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 2: alaskaative communities, and they lose a sense of community. You know, 624 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: you travel along the cosco Quin River and all along 625 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 2: the banks, you see these fish camps, and it's where 626 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 2: families and neighbors gathered sometimes for weeks on end during 627 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 2: the summer to fish and process the fish that they 628 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 2: would need to get them through that. 629 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: And now are those communities evaporating as commercial fishing continues 630 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: to sprawl. 631 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: The impression I get is that physically their landscape is 632 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: kind of crumbling into the rivers and the oceans. 633 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: That is happening because of global warming, because. 634 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: Of climate change, absolutely, and climate change is also having 635 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 2: an impact on the fish. It's a controversial topic exactly 636 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 2: how much it's having an impact, but you can see 637 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: how in a delicate ecological web that changes in water 638 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 2: temperature can affect not just salmon themselves, which are the 639 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 2: fish they prize, but also the fish that the salmon 640 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: feed on, and that can have all sorts of cascading effects. 641 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 2: But you also see in just the encroachment of the 642 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 2: outside world. One woman I spoke with at a village meeting, 643 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 2: she was very upset about the impact on fishing, but 644 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 2: you also got a sense that she was worried about 645 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 2: the young people in their village losing their connection to 646 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 2: the land and playing video games instead and not learning 647 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 2: how to subsist. And I think in some ways that's 648 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 2: the thing that's really gutting these communities. It's that sense 649 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 2: that they're breaking decisively from their past. 650 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: And how do the large commercial fisheries see all of this. 651 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: I think the sense you get from the commercial fisheries 652 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 2: is that Alaska pollock is a giant money maker. It 653 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,919 Speaker 2: is the second biggest wild fishery on the planet, and 654 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 2: that they are providing an important source of protein for 655 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 2: a world in which demand for fishes going up. But 656 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: essentially wildfishing peaked in the nineteen nineties. A lot of 657 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 2: the growth we've seen since then is farmed fish, and 658 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 2: that really the issue is climate change. It's not really 659 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 2: their issue. They're not the ones who are, you know, 660 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 2: fishing out the salmon runs from western Alaska, and that 661 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: it's kind of up to society to address climate change, 662 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 2: not then, So. 663 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: As you noted at the top, you and I began 664 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: talking about this as a project for you about five 665 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: years ago or so. And you've looked at the military, 666 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: You've looked at the energy exploration, You've looked at the 667 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: local communities and fisheries. What have you learned over the 668 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: course of your reporting that you didn't know before you 669 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: set out to do this? What are some of the 670 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: big AHAs for you? 671 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: The biggest AHA for me is that the Arctic is 672 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 2: a and this may sound a little weird, is a 673 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: complex human society. Because, as I say, like it doesn't 674 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 2: sound weird like many in the Lower forty eight. I 675 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 2: thought of the Arctic in kind of symbols and images, 676 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: you know, frozen landscapes, polar bear as, the odd oil rig, 677 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. But you get there and you realize, 678 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 2: you know, there are nations living there. They live complex lives, 679 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 2: and they're just as fragmented as we are in the 680 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: Lower forty eight. For example, with the fishing issue, there 681 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 2: are these things called community development quotas, so sixty five 682 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 2: coastal villages actually get a portion of revenue from the 683 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 2: pollock troll. Now they don't want to see the pollock 684 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 2: troll ending, but their neighbors just up river who don't 685 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 2: get that money are complaining that those trollers are fishing 686 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 2: them out, destroying their way of life. And similarly with 687 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 2: the oil. 688 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: Are those differences because of the way the various populations 689 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: were expropriated when outsiders came in, where there's just different 690 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: deals cut in order to give commercial interest access to 691 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: the land when indigenous peoples were appropriated. 692 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 2: I think there is a long history of that, you know, 693 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 2: and it goes back to the Alaska Native Claimed Settlement 694 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 2: Act in nine in seventy one, and then the Magnus 695 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 2: and Stephens Fisheries Act of nineteen seventy six. There have 696 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 2: been various attempts to square the circle in Alaska of 697 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 2: balancing indigenous rights with the desire, particularly from the outside 698 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 2: to exploit Alaska's rich resources, and with the community development 699 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 2: quotas in particular. I think in some ways that came 700 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 2: from a good place. It was a sense that these 701 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 2: native villages should be getting some portion of the revenue 702 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: from the waters off the coast, But it also cleaved 703 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 2: them from some of their neighbors. And you see this 704 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 2: also in land division. You know, one of the villages. 705 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 2: I went to a place called Quagillingock, which means place 706 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 2: of no river, which is sort of ironic because it's 707 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 2: sinking into the water. They are, as we speak, trying 708 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 2: to work out how they can buy parcels of land 709 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 2: further away to eventually move that village to higher ground 710 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 2: because they know it's daser kind of numbered. 711 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: So before we wrap up any other things you've learned. 712 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: I would go back to this idea of the imagined 713 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 2: narrative that Alaska and the wider Arctic is an area 714 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 2: that I think is in some ways fixed in our mind, 715 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 2: but it's also a place where we project narratives. China 716 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 2: is projecting a narrative of becoming a great power. The 717 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 2: US is projecting a narrative of being suddenly beset by enemies. 718 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 2: Russia is projecting a narrative that even as its armed 719 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 2: forces are chewed up in Ukraine, it's going to emerge 720 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 2: as a powerful Arctic nation. All these things are clashing, 721 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 2: and the people who live there are frankly caught in 722 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 2: the middle. 723 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: Liam, thank you for wrapping things up for us. We're 724 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 1: out of time. Thanks for joining us today. 725 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 2: Thank you. 726 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: William Denning is a calumnist with Bloomberg Opinion. You can 727 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: find his work at the Bloomberg Opinion website and on 728 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Terminal. You can find Liam himself on Twitter 729 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: at Denning Here at crash Course, we believe that collisions 730 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. In 731 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: today's Crash Course, I learned that the title that I 732 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: gave to this episode, the Race to Control the Arctic, 733 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: actually might not be the right title given everything that 734 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: Liam just told me. What's going on for both commercial operators, 735 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: the military, and everyone else up in Alaska is a long, cold, 736 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: challenging slog. What did you learn? We'd love to hear 737 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: from you. You can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion handle 738 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien using the hashtag 739 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe to our show 740 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening right now and leave us a review. 741 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: It helps more people find the show. This episode was 742 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: produced by the indispensable Ona masurakas Moses on Dom and Me. 743 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,720 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we had editing 744 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: help from Sagebauman. Jeff Grocott, Mike Nize and Christine Danden 745 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: Bylark Blake. Maple says, our sound engineering and our original 746 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: theme song was composed by Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. 747 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with another Crash course