1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. As always, thank you 3 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. We've got our super producer 4 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: Max Williams in the house, live and direct on the zoom. 5 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: I'm Ben Boland And who is this other handsome guy 6 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: on the zoom looks like he just got a haircut? 7 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: Oh my god, bad Are you talking about me? Are 8 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: you talking about me? Yes? You are only I'm the 9 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: only other person I did get a haircut. I don't 10 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: know why I was so over excited about that. I 11 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: think I was maybe doing a bit. It didn't really land, 12 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: but I did get a haircut. Ben, Um, you've got 13 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: a haircut too. We joked that we got haircuts side 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: by side while holding hands, holding holding hands, But that 15 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: didn't really happen. But you can. I leave it to 16 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: the imagination of the listening public. Yes, please picture our 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: fresh haircuts the entire time you are listening to this 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: week's two part episode, Max Noll and I are tackling 19 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: something that is going to doubtlessly be familiar to a 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: lot of folks listening to the show today. For anybody 21 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: in the audience who has ever been a part of 22 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: a pregnancy or has been expecting a child. You know 23 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: that it can bring some well it can it can 24 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: bring some big changes into your life. And one of 25 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: the funniest changes that pregnancy can bring is a change 26 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: in cravings. Right, this is an ancient idea, Like Max Noll, 27 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: you've you probably we have some stories in your family 28 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: about odd cravings. Maybe your mother's had some like very 29 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: specific cravings while you were on the way to Earth. Like, 30 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: do you guys have any uh anecdotes about you know, 31 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: your mom all of a sudden saying I can only 32 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: eat pickled flavored ice cream? Do they make pickle flavored 33 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: ice cream? Because that sounds like an absolute culinary travesty. 34 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: I guess if they did, it would probably be for 35 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: this reason. But I know that ice cream flavors are 36 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: getting all kinds of weird these days. I don't know. 37 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: I don't really talk to my mom about that kind 38 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: of stuff. We have sort of weird relationship, Max, I 39 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: refer to you. You seem to have a very friendly 40 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: and open relationship with your family. Did your mom tell 41 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: you about weird craving she had when you or your 42 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: brother were in the womb? So she definitely has told 43 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: me I cannot off the top of my head. Remember, 44 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,399 Speaker 1: but my mom had so my brother's only eighteen months 45 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: older than me, so it's like rapid concessions. So she's like, yeah, 46 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: I was pretty much pregnant. I had like a few 47 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: days off and being pregnant. Then I was pregnant again. 48 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: It was like a three It was like a three 49 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: year period. I was pretty much pregnant, and then I decided, 50 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm just gonna have two kids. I thought 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: about having four or five or six now after you Max, especially, 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: I was the larger of the two still to this day, 53 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: the larger the two. And she's like, after you, Max, 54 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: you were enough of a pain that I decided two 55 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: kids is good. Two kids is good, and you've continued 56 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: being a pain to this day. No, I'm kidding, he's exactly. 57 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's like I I, yeah, I'm a dad, 58 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: and I went through a lot of this stuff with 59 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: my daughter's mom um, who I've mentioned before. We're not married, 60 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: but we're very, very close, and I it was such 61 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: a kind of traumatic, intense time that I almost think 62 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: I've like blocked a lot of it out of my memory, 63 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: not not because it was like bad. It was just 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: very intense and there's a lot going on, and also 65 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: the first like year or so of like all the 66 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: late night feedings and all that stuff. But I definitely 67 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: remember she was into like spicy food. She's always been 68 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: in a spicy food. But I would cook care a 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: lot of like thaipe food, and we would order a 70 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: lot of like really spicy Indians. I think that's a 71 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: pretty common one for sure. Yeah. Yeah, this is fascinating 72 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: because you know, we are lucky enough to have some 73 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: expecting parents in the audience today, and while some of 74 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: our fellow ridiculous historians are listening to this week's series, 75 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: you may be experiencing cravings of your own. You may 76 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: be waking up at three in the morning saying I 77 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: need French fries and gummy bears stat sending and sending 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: your partner out to pick those up for you. There's 79 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of um cultural commentary that comes into 80 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: the idea of pregnancy cravings. And if you go online today, 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: if you go to forums like what to Expect all 82 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: one word, then you will find no shortage of very 83 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: specific pregnancy cravings, old food related and you'll find a 84 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: lot of um speculation about this too, from biologists to psychologists. Right, yeah, 85 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: you sure well. And it's not it's not like a 86 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: new thing. It really has been around as long as 87 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: we've been documenting on a on a bit more high level. 88 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: I don't know that we have like chromagnet cravings or 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: anything like that, but as far back as like the 90 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: sixteenth century, we as a culture have been very much 91 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: aware of this idea of these very specific cravings and 92 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: urges that hit women when they're you know, with child Right, 93 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: and that form you mentioned too in it kind of 94 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: did a round up of some of the more popular 95 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: weird ones, and there were things like sour gummy worms, 96 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: French fries, fried chicken, watermelon, Mexican food and water and 97 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: salad bend. What is that? Is that like a dish 98 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: or is it literally just like glasses of water and 99 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: like plates of greens? I believe it is a salad 100 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: and a class of water. But let me hop on 101 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: this hobby horse. Real quick salad just means a mixture, 102 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: uh salad. The I think here in the US, a 103 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: lot of people imagine, you know, like a nice Caesar 104 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: salad with some graded Palmer song maybe a couple of 105 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: fancy crutons when they think of salad. But in other 106 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: parts of the world there are things like milk salad. 107 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: I'm not making that up. Folks, google milk salad. It's 108 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: a real thing. It's weird. I'll give that one a pass. 109 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: But the thing has been to your point, the there 110 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: is somewhat of a rhyme and reason to it. The 111 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: idea of you know, pregnancy being divided into the tri masters, right, 112 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,679 Speaker 1: the three tri masters, and each one kind of having 113 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: an escalating sort of vibe of these cravings, I believe 114 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: typically the first one is much more savory type of stuff, 115 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: the second one is sweet, and the third one is salty. Again, 116 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: mileage may vary. Um, people are different. But that is 117 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: somewhat of the conventional knowledge behind it in terms of 118 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: the modern, you know, study of this phenomenon. Yes, so 119 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: today we are going to dive into the storied history 120 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: of pregnancy food cravings. And before we do, we have 121 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: to point out that, no, I like the phrase you used, 122 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: your mileage may vary. This is not a culturally universal experience. 123 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: There are cultures where pregnancy food cravings as a concept 124 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: don't really exist or they're not really reported. And if 125 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: you go from culture to culture, you will find that 126 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,679 Speaker 1: where these cravings do exist, they are often wildly different. 127 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: For instance, in Japan, when expecting mothers are reporting a craving, 128 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: they're usually craving rice other than you know, water and salad. 129 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: It's right, and you know, I just want to double 130 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: back ever so slightly when I said that the kind 131 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: of conventional scientific understanding is this, you know, division of 132 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: the three trimesters of the different kind of flavor profiles. 133 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: That's really just an observation kind of of like you know, 134 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: typical cycle of these types of craving. But the actual 135 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 1: scientific explanation as to why, you know, physiologically these happen 136 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: still somewhat up in the air. What we do know universally, 137 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: and it makes sense for rice as well, is that 138 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: women um tend to crave calorically dense things, things that 139 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: have that pack a lot of calories and carbohydrates for 140 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: example into you know, a small package, things like animal proteins, pizza. Again, 141 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: these calorically dense things, the kinds of things that new 142 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: tells you to avoid, like the plague if anyone is 143 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: aware of that. That is, like the lesson that I 144 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: learned in my week on noon, my failed week on noon. 145 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: You're not supposed to eat calorically dense things, which would 146 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: be things like steak or you know, heavy carbs. Um. 147 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: But peanut butter is a great, great example. But outside 148 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: of that is it's kind of anyone's guests And you're right. 149 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: Then women in Japan reported liking more rice, which is 150 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: a staple food of that culture, obviously because it is 151 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: plentiful and packs a lot of nutrients and calories into 152 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: a pretty small package. To say, what want more of that? Yep, yep, 153 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: And shout out to the psychologist who came to some 154 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: of these conclusions, Natalia see Orlof and Julia M. Horns. 155 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: They wrote that researchers need to consider culture in looking 156 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: at what women crave while pregnant, and they make a 157 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: great point when they say, there is a complex ecosystem 158 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: of pre existing ideas about pregnancy, pre existing ideas about food, 159 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: and of course pre existing ideas about what it means 160 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: to be a woman in general. And it makes sense 161 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: when you think about it, that your body is in 162 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: an extraordinary situation and your body is making additional demands. 163 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: You know what, I mean, like, listen to your body 164 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: when it tells you what it was. One study of 165 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: Tanzanian women in a rural environment found that they were 166 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: reporting desires for, like you said, animal proteins, staples, grains, fruits, 167 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: and vegetables, and the psychologist found that there was a 168 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: a social significance cultural significance to providing these foods for 169 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: expecting mothers, like if you're if you're the husband, or 170 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: you're the husband's family or the male partners family, then 171 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: it's not only expected for you to provide those foods, 172 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: but you get a bit of social cash in doing so. 173 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: So around the world and throughout history, it turns out 174 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: that people have some unifying factors were not all that different. 175 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: But this being a history show, we are going to 176 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: dive into some history on pregnancy cravings. Like you said, Noel, 177 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: I think we can go back as far as the 178 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds, right, correct, Yeah, I mean that's definitely when 179 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,119 Speaker 1: you know there's started to be more of an emphasis 180 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: on measurement and more of an emphasis on um the 181 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: idea of kind of getting to the root of what 182 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: makes us tick. And this was one of the goals 183 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: of Nicolas Culpepper, who was a very popular medical writer 184 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: at the time. Again, we know that a lot of 185 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: these ideas are not gonna pan out, you know, over time, 186 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: and suddenly the some of us, they're gonna sound absolutely ridiculous. 187 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: But that is kind of one of the words in 188 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: the name of the show. So I think we're good there. Um. 189 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: But this dude, Nicholas Culpepper, he kind of had a 190 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: theory on what these cravings were. He described them as 191 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: one of the chiefest signs of conception. So I guess 192 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: he's using that as a marker of like, Okay, you 193 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: are in fact pregnant, because you know, again it was 194 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: kind of a they didn't have pregnancy tests back then. 195 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: You really had to this kind of like hope for 196 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: the best and then wait for the signs, right, And 197 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: this would have been one of the early indicators according 198 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: to Culpepper. Um, And he said, what would then follow? 199 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: According to another writer, historian, I believe of this era, 200 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: John Sadler, would be then the quote longing desire for 201 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: And I love this term strange meats strange meats uh yeah, 202 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: And I think again some language differences in the usage 203 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: of words like this, But back then, I think the 204 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: term meats would have just been a word to describe 205 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: food in general. Like if you think if you hear 206 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 1: people talk about sweet meats, that literally just means like candy, 207 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, So meats would have been a kind of 208 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: a generalized term for food stuffs. Bring me an ortalan 209 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm only exactly. Yeah, this is interesting. So the very 210 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: first known pregnancy test as we would understand it today, 211 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: comes from ancient Egypt, where women would check to see 212 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: whether they were pregnant by urinating on barley or wheat seeds, 213 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: and if the seeds sprouted quickly, then they would say, 214 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 1: this means I am pregnant. That sounds kind of crazy, right, 215 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: that sounds relatively unscientific, but turns out that was a 216 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 1: pretty good predictor of pregnancy. Yeah, it was right about 217 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: seventy of the time. But still, you know what, what's 218 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: that old say? A mother knows, right, So you know 219 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: what your body is telling you, and if your body 220 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: is like I need these strange meats, then you know 221 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: you know that you know that something has changed. And 222 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: we we also know that by late sixteen hundreds, this 223 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: was a very common conversation in Europe, Like people people 224 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: knew about pregnancy cravings. People joked about them. In six 225 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: two there was the satirical piece think of it like 226 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: an onion headline, folks, when you hear the title the 227 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: Ten Pleasures of Marriage, and in the Ten Pleasures of Marriage, 228 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: the authors suggests that cravings are so common that quote, oh, 229 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: women when they are with child do fall commonly from 230 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: one loading to another. And then the guy the author 231 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: here he complains about this is so like classic stand up. 232 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: He's complaining about his wife, right, and he's like, they're gonna, 233 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, one day they'll crave oranges from China. The 234 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: civil lemons, whatever those are s I V I L L. 235 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: Is this some kind of a alien lemon, like a 236 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: lemon cello or something like that. It's lowercase in our notes, 237 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: so I'm not sure. I think it's spelled the same 238 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: as now. It's not now I'm wrong, But anyway, let 239 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: us listeners. But you know, we know that fruits have 240 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: changed over time and in various different strains that have 241 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: become more prominent or maybe the civil lemon was huge 242 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: at the time. But speaking of things that were huge 243 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: at the time, another one that is in this list 244 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: is something known as the largest asparagus. I can only 245 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: assume this is a very large asparagus that probably makes 246 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: your pea smell really bad. It's not large enough. We 247 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: need the largest one. You're on this Max, stop the recording. 248 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: We need the largest asparagus that's got Yeah, yeah, thanks, 249 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: But uh, this sounds decadent. I'm kind of into this. 250 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: Strawberries with wine and sugar and cherries of all sorts, 251 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: and I like the pause and ellipses, plums, plums. It's 252 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: It's interesting because at the time that this was written, 253 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: these fruits, along with wine and sugar were extravagant. They 254 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: were they were premium items, you know what I mean. 255 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: The average person living in Europe at this time would 256 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: have considered orange is pretty fancy. They were not. They 257 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: were not on the crazy level of opulence that a 258 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: pineapple was, which was a whole other deal. But they were, 259 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, they would be considered a premium food. And 260 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: and this guy who's writing this piece is saying he's 261 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: complaining about the same thing like a stand up comedian 262 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: would complain about in the nineteen eighties. He's like, now 263 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: I've got a trot out way after dark, because all 264 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: of a sudden it's three am. And uh and my 265 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: gal once strawberries with wine and sugar. So and the 266 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: largest asparagus. Max, you came back, Do you have it? Uh? 267 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: Still working on it. I had like the third and 268 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: the fifth largest one, but I'm still working out again 269 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: the largest. Okay, we need the biggest one. Though. This 270 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: is the results driven producer right here. I appreciate that, Max. 271 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: But the thing is, I think what a lot of 272 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: you out there are thinking right now is like, but 273 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: what about like regular people they got pregnant too. They 274 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: couldn't have access to civil lemons and China oranges and 275 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: the largest asparagus and strawberries and wine. I imagine they 276 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: were probably eating whatever they could get their hands on, 277 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: which would have been, you know, just staple foods. And 278 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: also we know that pregnancy is often uh in these 279 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: days before the intervention of you know, much more effective 280 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: medical science didn't go well, you know for people in 281 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: the lower class. I'm so glad you brought this up. Yeah, 282 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: because this is something this is something that I think 283 00:17:54,640 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: stays with the species today, and it's an incredibly important point. 284 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: So cravings can only exist in a society or culture 285 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 1: that has a variety of food or an access to 286 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: varieties of foods. And there are many places in the 287 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: world historically and as we record today that do not 288 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: have the privilege of that access, do not have the 289 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: privilege of that variety. You know what I mean, Like 290 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: when whenever you see a show about cuisine and uh, 291 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 1: you see very fancy, elaborate preparations of things. That is 292 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: very much a luxury. And when we are exploring this story, 293 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 1: we want to make sure that we acknowledge that. So 294 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that point, Noel. We know that there 295 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: were some stereotypes in Europe about pregnancy cravings. One of 296 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: them was apricots. People like it became kind of a 297 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: a trope in fiction of the sixteen hundreds, Like John 298 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: Webster had a play called The Duchess of Malfi, And 299 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: in The Duchess of Malfie there's this scene where one 300 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: of the characters tries to figure out whether the Duchess 301 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: is pregnant, and this is how he does it. He 302 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: just walks up to her with a bowl of apricots. 303 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: Because at the time people are like, you know what, 304 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: pregnant people love apricots, bro And that was like so 305 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: common and so understood that if you were watching this play, 306 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: you would know what the scene was about. If you 307 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: just walked into the room while that scene was happening, 308 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: you would see a guy, he'd have some apricots, he'd 309 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: be in front of this lady, and you'd be like, uh, 310 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: somebody's expecting Sure, sure that was a thing in like Shakespeare, 311 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: for example, like all kinds of stock characters, and you know, 312 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: these little in jokes that that only people of the 313 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: time would have fully been aware of, and when you 314 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: read them disconnected, it feels very very dated. Obviously, so 315 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: much of that work is very universal, but things like 316 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: apricots being very specifically tied to pregnancy would not read 317 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: into a modern audience unless you listen to this episode, 318 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: in which case, congratulations for being in on the historical joke. 319 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: But these there was some superstition behind these types of 320 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: cravings too, Ben. This wasn't you know, it was almost 321 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: considered a heresy or somehow challenging the gods. You know, 322 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: because again, and we know even in the upper class, 323 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: pregnancies would often go awry because there just wasn't the 324 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: kind of medical intervention that we have today, and they 325 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 1: did things pretty weirdly and incorrectly sometimes. Um, although we know, 326 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: you know, it is possible for a mother to just 327 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: give birth on our own with no doctor. We see it, 328 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, every now and then it happens in like 329 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: movies where someone is left to their own devices or 330 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: gives birth in captivity or something like that, and they 331 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: don't usually die, but there can be complications, significant complications, 332 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: and all Fentimes folks would blame things like that on 333 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: superstitious or supernatural factors, right, yeah, yeah, because you know, 334 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: the separation of science and spirituality is a relatively new 335 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: thing for this species. If you look at if you 336 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: look at the narrative arc of humanity, so back in 337 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: the day, science and what we would recognize as religion 338 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: or spiritual belief systems, they were inextricably intertwined. So if 339 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: you are a midwife or a lay healer at this time, 340 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: you don't really have an established like medical academy. You 341 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: don't go to university. You learn on the job. And 342 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: if you are referring to text rather than oral traditions, 343 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: right or experiential learning, then you are looking at some 344 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: very old works. You're looking at Aristotle, right, and and 345 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: things of that nature, and then you're you're also treating 346 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: superstitions the same way you would treat scientific research. So this, 347 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, leads to some weird conclusions. Like 348 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: early writers of what we would consider the modern era 349 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: spent tons tons of time and and oceans of ink 350 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: speculating on what pregnancy cravings could mean, and these incorporated 351 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: superstition and science together. People believed that you could sort 352 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: of tell what a child's personality was going to be 353 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: like based on the cravings of the mother while that 354 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: child was in And I love the way you pronounced 355 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: it earlier, all the whim, yes, the hum. Indeed, what 356 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: do you think the giant asparagus child is gonna grow 357 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: up to be? Like? Ben? Well, there's giant exparagus and 358 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: then there's the largest asparagus. You're gonna, you know, ridiculously, 359 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: Come on, men, is what I assume ridiculous history. We're 360 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: doing to three men in a baby thing. So that's 361 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: what we're doing. Now, we're gonna we're gonna raise this 362 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: kid with a max is so done with this. We're 363 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna raise this kid and I mean Ted Danson, Yeah, 364 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: of course if you want, But I think it's cool 365 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: when you're you bro. Well, but we're doing the okay, 366 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: so we can just do our own three men in 367 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: a baby scenario. We don't have to Who else was 368 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: it who's doing a mustache? Tom? Tom's selling tom Selle 369 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: three in a baby, Maybe there's another baby. There's the 370 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: third man? Who's the third man? Sorry, this is an 371 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: important tangent. YEA, let's just really quick right here. Steve 372 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: Goudenberg dance Steve Gudenberg. Nobody remember Steve Guttenberg. I will 373 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: take the director credit because it was directed by Mr 374 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: spock Letter. I didn't at least know that's that's seem 375 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: to remember that. Leonard Nimoy, Max with the Facts, Max 376 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: with the Facts in the Largest Desparagus. Also shout out 377 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: to Leonard Nimoy's musical career. I don't know if anybody's 378 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: ever listened to his music. But it's not what you're expecting, 379 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: and it's a fun right. I like Leonard Nimoy a 380 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: lot um. But it's true, Ben, we're talking about superstition. 381 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: We're talking about things like humors and bodily fluids and 382 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, like having too much bile that has to 383 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: be drained or whatever, and blood letting in the and 384 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: the like. So I mean this is very rudimentary, uh, 385 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: stuff based on this idea of the balance of these 386 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: bodily fluids and if if you have too much of one, 387 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: then you have to balance it out with the other 388 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: or else you're gonna, you know, be colicky or something. 389 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: But with pregnancy, you're right, then a lot of of 390 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: of emphasis was placed on things like the maternal imagination, 391 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: which I love, the theory of the maternal imagination, which 392 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: was the notion that experiences experienced by the mother could 393 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: actually affect the baby, you know, in utero. Yeah, and 394 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: and and have experiences to be kind of transmitted from 395 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: the mother to the fetus, and those could be carried 396 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: with the child into adulthood for good or for ill. 397 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: An extreme version of this comes to us from Joseph Merrick, 398 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: whom history remembers as the elephant Man. Merrik famously explained 399 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: his condition by saying his mother was startled by an 400 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: elephant while she was carrying him. So people did believe 401 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: that this is interesting, we should spend just a little 402 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: bit of time on this. People for a long time 403 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: believed that the experiences all the sensory input and all 404 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: the nutrition that went into an expecting mother affected the 405 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: child that they would produce. And it turns out, oddly enough, 406 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: as as superstitious as this sounds, it turns out that 407 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: humanity was not entirely wrong about this. The study of 408 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: epigenetics teaches us that what happens to a person their 409 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: life experiences can influence the expressions of genes that their 410 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: descendants will bear. Like it's it is true, but people 411 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: understood this way before they had any concept of gene 412 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: theory or epigenetics. But they knew something was up and 413 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: they were trying to figure out what was going on. 414 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: One of the old school beliefs that is hopefully enjoyable 415 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: and not scary in the modern day is this, if 416 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: you were in the Middle Ages, then you would have known, 417 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: according to medieval lore and word on the street, that 418 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: the foods and expecting mother eats will influence the appearance 419 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: of her child, the way the kid looks. So, for instance, 420 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: if you eat rabbit's heads while you're pregnant, then you're 421 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: gonna end up with a kid that has a split 422 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: lip or a hair lip, or a cleft palate. And 423 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: if you eat fish heads. Then you get I love 424 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: this phrase. Then you're gonna end up with a kid 425 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: who has something called a trout pout. Have you guys 426 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: heard of this? Yeah, it's like the It's like the 427 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: historical version of duck lips. I think, right, I have 428 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: no ideas like your I guess right now, I guess 429 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: your mouth is turned down like a fish. Like nobody 430 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: can see this because we're an audio podcast, or you're like, 431 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: I can see that. What does a Google image search 432 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: get us for the trout pouts? It's yeah, you know what, 433 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: hell boy, uh got it all over the place. Um. 434 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: Some of these images do appear to be uh, plastic 435 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: surgeries that have not gone particularly well. Um, so that 436 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been in play. But yeah, it is pretty 437 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: much kind of just a thick, full lip that is 438 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: maybe not particularly malleable, let's say, sort of stuck in place, 439 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, kind of like blue steel. Remember that look 440 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: that Zoolander would do. Yeah, you have to turn That's 441 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: what I'm thinking if I recalled Zoolander. Yeah, and then 442 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: there's another thing, like the idea of eating soft cheese. 443 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: Expectant mothers were sometimes told, hey, watch out for that 444 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: soft cheese because if you eat too much soft cheese 445 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: then your son will have small genitalia. Okay, well that 446 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, uh what would they have put stock in 447 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: the size of genitalia back in those days? Ben? Would 448 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: that have been an important feat? Sure? Do you think? Well, 449 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: it was, at least in Europe at the time. It 450 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: was an important enough concern that that people were people 451 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: were associated with soft cheese and pregnancy. Uh. Seriously, though, 452 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: while while we are joking a little bit, most modern 453 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: doctors will tell you that if you are expecting, you 454 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: should air on the side of caution when it comes 455 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 1: to soft and unpasteurized cheese. Not because it will affect 456 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: your kids Australia, but because there is a link between 457 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: cheese and listeria, right, and also things like on like 458 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: raw milk. You know that would be a big now now, 459 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: And what's the deal with raw milk? Man? And it's 460 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: it's technically illegal in some places like uh, well, I 461 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: mean yeah, yeah, it's it's illegal because it hasn't been 462 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: pasteurized and the process of pasteurization will kill harmful bacteria. 463 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: But people in the US and abroad I swear by 464 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: raw milk. They think it's top notch. So we've talked 465 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: about the idea of superstition being wrapped up in these cravings, 466 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: the idea of using them to kind of read the 467 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: tea leaves of what you know your boy's penis is 468 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: going to look like, or what kind of personality your 469 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: your daughter is going to have, or whether there will 470 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: be some kind of birth defect. Right, this is all things. 471 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: Are all things that a lot of stock was put 472 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: in by these or they called ben wise women, sort 473 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: of the like next step up from the midwife. You 474 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: had the midwife, and then you had these wise women 475 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: who are not medically trained, and we're using a lot 476 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: of kind of you know, mysticism in this practice. Correct. 477 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: I would argue that, well, we know that wise women, 478 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: as they were called, did a lot of things that 479 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: we would associate with first aid, being a first responder 480 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: in your community, also being a midwife or a doula. 481 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: And I gotta say, I would argue that if you 482 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: are living in this time, your odds of success, if 483 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: you're seeking medical treatment, are going to be better with 484 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: a midwife than with the barber surgeons of the day. 485 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: That's a fact, in case you haven't heard it before, Folks, 486 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: back in Europe, for a long time people assumed that 487 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: if you were qualified to cut hair, you were also 488 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: qualified to pull teeth, to draw blood and to cut 489 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: off people's limbs, right, which is, if I'm not mistaken, 490 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: where that curly comer red and white barber pole comes from, 491 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: the red being for blood letting. They were the ones 492 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: who would give you a little snip snip and a 493 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: little drip drip, and then send you on your merry way, 494 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: and you know, theoretically you'd be all cure. But Ben, 495 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: I love that point you make about midwifes being much 496 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: more suited to deal with pregnant women because they were 497 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: women and they knew their bodies. Therefore, they could at 498 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: least translate feelings and experiences that they'd had, most likely 499 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: many of them had given birth before to the women 500 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: they were helping. So we're not trying to nag in 501 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: any way midwives, because it's still today very much a 502 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: valuable and valid profession. I've known many women who have 503 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: chosen to go with a midwife or do LA rather 504 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: than um, you know, have have their baby in the hospital. 505 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: But we are talking about these superstitious associations with cravings 506 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: and One of them was that if you didn't appease 507 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,479 Speaker 1: these cravings, almost as if it was some sort of 508 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: offering to the gods, bad things could happen. Oh yes, yeah, 509 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: if you didn't appease these cravings, there would the belief 510 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: wind be negative consequences for your unborn child. So they 511 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: are high stakes here, you know what I mean. You're 512 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: an expecting mother and you've got this list of these 513 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: dudes and dolts. You know, watch out for strawberries or cherries. 514 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: They may give your kid birth marks. But you can't eat. 515 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: You can't not eat the stuff you want to eat 516 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: because if you don't listen to your body, your kid 517 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: may come out with some sort of medical condition or malady. 518 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: And you would hear contradicting information, which still happens today. 519 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: I mean, look, expecting parents out there in the crowd today, 520 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: we've got your back. I know that the forums are 521 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: full of contradictory information. It was the same thing in 522 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds. You'd have one person saying, look, if 523 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: you eat strawberries or if you get them thrown on 524 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: your face, and you're an expectant mother, then your baby's 525 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: gonna have birthmarks. And then someone else would be like, 526 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: oh no, wait, the thing is if you don't eat 527 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: the strawberries, then your kid's gonna get birthmarks. They were 528 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: referring to a real thing something we would now probably 529 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: call strawberry nevis because it was people believed it, that's right, 530 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: and then they still referred to off in a strawberry birthmarks. 531 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: Billy Corgan from The Smashing punk Is actually has one 532 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: on his hand that you often don't see because I 533 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: think he's his makeup to cover it up, as does 534 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: the absolutely twisted and incredible British comedian Chris Morris, who 535 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: has a really seriously kind of almost like proto Tim 536 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: and Eric Um comedy series called Jam and he also 537 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: played the boss on the first few seasons of The 538 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: I T. Crowd. But he has one of these birth 539 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 1: marks on his entire face and you almost never see 540 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: him without some kind of cover up makeup on um, 541 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: but but you will. You can't find some images of 542 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: it and see what it looks like, and it is 543 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: very much this kind of like uh, freckled, red, splotchy 544 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: kind of like thing that spreads, you know, all all 545 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: over the face and and it can be elsewhere on 546 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: the body. But you're right then, um that at the 547 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: time would have been attributed to lack of or over 548 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: abundance of strawberries during pregnancy. And we have some accounts, 549 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: some historical counts from a particularly well known midwife who 550 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: wrote a book called A Complete Practice of Midwiffery, which 551 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: I love the word midwiffery. Um. I don't know if 552 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: it's so much of a book, as this was a 553 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: collection of her notes, but she, you know, went through 554 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: countless births. Her name was Sarah Stone in the eighteenth century, 555 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: and she worked in the United Kingdom in the areas 556 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: of Taunton and Bristol. And she in those notes once 557 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: described a woman who was eight months pregnant and started 558 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: having significant bleeding, loss of blood, and she referred to 559 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: it as a great flooding. And she fully believed that 560 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: this was the direct result of some kind of unfulfilled 561 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: craving or longing that her patient had, even if she 562 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: didn't know what it was, and and Sarah didn't know 563 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: what it was, the patient claimed to not know what 564 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: it is, what it was, the patient said that she 565 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: wasn't wanting for anything. So Stone really kind of started 566 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: putting on her midwife detective hat Um and started to 567 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: really dig in as to what she might have possibly 568 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: been lacking that could cause this complication. And finally the 569 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: mother was like, well, I mean, there was this one 570 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: time I saw a young boy hold a peapod up 571 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: to the sun and I thought it looked beautiful and 572 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: strangely delicious. So I want to step back here as 573 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: we're as we're getting closer to the end of the 574 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: first part of this two part series and give a 575 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: shout out to, uh, the king of birth marks, one 576 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: of the most famous birthmark havers, Mikhail Gorbachev. You guys 577 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: remember Gorbachev Max, maybe a little before this guy takes 578 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: it to the paint with his not an intentional pun 579 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: with his birthmark. You know, I respect him for having 580 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: that kind of pork colored archipelago of a birthmark on 581 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: his forehead. And he never he never wore makeup to 582 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: cover it. He also played, you know, a huge role 583 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: in geopolitics. But now I'm wondering what, you know, what 584 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: is its diet was like when they were expecting, did 585 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: someone throw strawberries at his mom? As the old saying goes, uh, 586 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: what the old saying of throwing strawberries I don't know, 587 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: this is old saying. Well, I was saying earlier the 588 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: idea that throwing strawberries at an expectant mother could result 589 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: in birth marks for the child, but then also not 590 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: eating strawberries or cherries or wine could give the kid birthmarks. 591 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the thing. Because it was unscientific, 592 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: Just like the peapod belief, people were experiencing a bit 593 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: of confirmation bias, right. There wasn't really enough research there 594 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: to prove or disprove these beliefs, so people went with 595 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: what seemed plausible. And that's something that kind of continues today. 596 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: It does. And and uh, to that point been in 597 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: terms of the research, I mean, this midwife, you know, 598 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,399 Speaker 1: really was being pretty methodical with her documenting of all 599 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: of these cases, and in her notes, this was the 600 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: only documented case of she she did get the peepod, 601 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: by the way, so like the she she held them, 602 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: she sees she realized, okay, I'm creating this peopod. The 603 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: midwife had a local farmer bring in some peapods and 604 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: she ate them and then immediately felt better. But in 605 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: her notes she said that it was the only example 606 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: like this where the one time talking about confirmation bias, 607 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: where feeding her the thing that she supposedly lacked, completely 608 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: got rid of the you know, the dangerous um complication. 609 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: But yet she says in her notes collected as the 610 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: complete practice of Midwiffery, that she was confident that quote 611 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: such things as these frequently happen without like any evidence whatsoever, 612 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: except for the one that's like the very definition of 613 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: confirmation bias, except he usually requires a couple of instances. 614 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: I would think, right, well, there's there's something else to 615 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: play here, of course, which is the unfortunate rate of 616 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: infant mortality at the time. So the harsh truth of 617 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: it is that you know, a lot of times people 618 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: did not have a successful birth, or people had a 619 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 1: child who had, you know, a very very serious medical condition, 620 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: and just like parents today, they were searching for answers 621 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: as to why this could have happened, you know what 622 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: I mean, and hoping to arm themselves with knowledge so 623 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: that they could avoid these calamities in the future. And 624 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: you might be listening now, and you might be expecting, 625 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: if so, congratulations, uh, and you might be thinking, dang, 626 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: this whole thing really makes me want a weird flavor 627 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: of ice cream. Let's see, we started with pickled ice cream. 628 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: So someone saying I want ice cream that also tastes 629 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: like pickles, Well, now is your chance to go find 630 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: that ice cream if it exists. Because Noel, Max and 631 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: I are going to pause, chase down our own food 632 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: cravings and return with part two of this two part 633 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: series and spoil or alert fellow ridiculous Historian's next part 634 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: gets weird? When't you say no? Next part? I think, 635 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: is it's fair to say it gets weird? Yeah, if 636 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 1: you think cannibalism is weird, it gets a little weird. Um. 637 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: But until then, we hope you all stay weird and 638 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 1: huge thanks to you super producer Max Williams. The largest asparagus, 639 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: The largest asparagus? What's the deal with that? We'll wait, 640 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: we'll get an updated in episode two. But he's, you know, 641 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 1: one of the weirdest people we know in the best 642 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: possible way. I always use that word and as as 643 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: a compliment. Huge thanks to Max's bro Alex Williams, who 644 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: composed this theme. Big Big thanks to Jonathan Strickland's a 645 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: k a. The Whister. Big thanks to our research associate Gabelusier. 646 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: Shout out to our super producer Casey Pegram and well, 647 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: you know what I would say, Shout out to all 648 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: the expecting parents out there. You know it's a tough time, 649 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: but it's an exciting time and uh, I'm wishing you 650 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: the best, folks. I indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. 651 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: M For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the 652 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 653 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.