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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to breakingpoints dot com to help us out. A

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Speaker 1: very interesting moment at a Q and A session with

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Speaker 1: Representative AOC where a couple of guys confronted her over

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Speaker 1: her vote for the Ukraine war effort to supply more weapons.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen, congress woman. None of this matters

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Speaker 1: unless there's a nuclear war, which you voted to send

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Speaker 1: arms and weapons to Ukraine, holding ever the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: only because there are war hunts. Okay, you originally voted,

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Speaker 1: you ran as an outsider. Yeah, you've been voting. You

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Speaker 1: started this war, and you praying you're voting to start

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Speaker 1: war with my side, China. Why are you playing with

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Speaker 1: the line. You're playing with your life. There will be

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Speaker 1: no neighbors if there's a nuclear bomb. You voted to

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Speaker 1: mobilize and send money for Ukrainian Nazis. You're a coward,

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Speaker 1: you're a progressive socialist. Where are you against the war mobilization?

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Speaker 1: He's telling the right truth. Wow, this is from a

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Speaker 1: couple of guys. Jose Vega is his name, the other one.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what his full name is because he's

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Speaker 1: tagged here on Twitter, Jose being the one who actually

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Speaker 1: tweeted this out. And Wow, I mean it's just one

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Speaker 1: of those things where, hey, you rarely see any of

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Speaker 1: this type of pushback. Also, I have been wondering for

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Speaker 1: quite some time. I'm like, where is the anti war movement? Well,

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Speaker 1: that's what I was. Actually, there's a lot to say

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Speaker 1: about it before I get into the specifics of what

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Speaker 1: they're saying there. What's remarkable to me is not that

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Speaker 1: these two men are protesting, it's that this is there,

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Speaker 1: like the only ones we've seen. This is the only

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Speaker 1: clip I have seen that I mean, we are literally

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Speaker 1: as we have been, I hope, covering extensively on the show,

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Speaker 1: facing down potential nuclear war, and you see very little

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Speaker 1: of this kind of direct in your face descent, and

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Speaker 1: so I like, I fully support it. And now, I mean,

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Speaker 1: who want to get into the specifics of what they're saying, Like, listen,

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Speaker 1: Tulci Gabberd left the Democratic parties to the warmongers. The

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Speaker 1: Republicans are all on board with this insect. Some of

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Speaker 1: them are much warhawkish than what's being said here. So

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Speaker 1: we'll put that aside. And you know, the other question

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Speaker 1: I think people would say is like, well, why target AOC,

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Speaker 1: But they're right in saying, you know, she ran as

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Speaker 1: taking a different approach. Ran as a leftist who should

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Speaker 1: have a critique of like continuing to escalate without any

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Speaker 1: sort of even push at diplomacy or you know, trying

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Speaker 1: to push the Ukrainians to negotiating table, which has been

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration policy the whole time. So I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's inappropriate to sort of target her with this

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Speaker 1: type of protest whatsoever. So it makes sense to target

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Speaker 1: the people that you think might be moved, right, And

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Speaker 1: since she has a gap between her stated ideology and

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Speaker 1: where she's actually been. Yeah, that's exactly the sort of

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Speaker 1: person who you should try to persuade, absolutely right. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: if she claims to be anti war, anti imperialists, you

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Speaker 1: know all this stuff, I think that's fine. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have an ideology, but then you have to be

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Speaker 1: consistent about it. And to date, only one senator has

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Speaker 1: even tried to hold up arm sales before he even

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Speaker 1: did yeah, Grand Paul, when he was like, hey, maybe

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Speaker 1: we should have an inspector general and they were like no,

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Speaker 1: and they he still voted for it. Karles mc kanna,

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Speaker 1: who we had on the show this week, Yes, he

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Speaker 1: has taken the same votes, but at least he's been

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Speaker 1: like publicly critical, I'm and engaged with the debate to

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Speaker 1: be fair. I've seen him confronted on it when he's like, look,

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Speaker 1: I think we did it because of this and this

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Speaker 1: and this. I don't necessarily agree with a lot of

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Speaker 1: his analysis, but game a rationale. Yeah, that's true, that

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Speaker 1: is true. That is true. I mean, so you know,

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Speaker 1: Congress and Conna, who is not like part of the squad,

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Speaker 1: is getting to the left of her, at least rhetorically.

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Speaker 1: On these things. So yeah, I mean she absolutely should

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Speaker 1: be at least I could be wrong. I have not

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Speaker 1: heard a peep of criticism out of her on the

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Speaker 1: Biden administration policy, let alone not voting for just you know,

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Speaker 1: arms shipman after shipment after shipment, which is part of

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Speaker 1: what continues to escalate and escalate and escalate the situation.

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Speaker 1: There is no way that she could without destroying her

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Speaker 1: brand amongst the blue check Libs who buy a lot

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Speaker 1: of her merchants probably support. I mean, look, I think

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Speaker 1: we should also be real in terms of her district,

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Speaker 1: they probably do want this is the or not even

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Speaker 1: in the district in terms of like the elite cachet

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Speaker 1: that she cares so much about, like she's very in step.

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Speaker 1: But then be honest about why you're doing that, or

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Speaker 1: like why you're contraveting what you've said previously about war.

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Speaker 1: But listen, I applaud these two gentlemen. I would like

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Speaker 1: to see it happen in a couple of other town

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Speaker 1: halls across the country. So if it does happen here,

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Speaker 1: there being incentives, you will get covered very import graduate.

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Speaker 1: But don't do anything violent police so that they won't

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Speaker 1: blame me for it. No, oh, absolutely not peaceful protest,

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Speaker 1: calling them ount making it uncomfortable for them, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: We should see way more of that. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you know, the way that these people would

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Speaker 1: be presented is like they're the crazy ones, Like they're

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Speaker 1: the only ones with in my opinion, who are acting

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Speaker 1: in a sane way when you consider the dangerous situation

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Speaker 1: that we're in right now. Very true, some big news

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Speaker 1: about a potential rail strike. Now, just to remind you

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Speaker 1: of how we got to this place, there was initially

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Speaker 1: a presidential board recommendation that was rejected by rail workers

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Speaker 1: to keep them working. Then there was a compromise deal

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Speaker 1: that was struck between the rail bosses and the union

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Speaker 1: leadership that was a tenet of agreement, and there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of celebration in the media. These were talks

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Speaker 1: led by like Biden and his team, a lot of

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Speaker 1: celebrations in the media of like, oh, that's it, rail

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Speaker 1: strike averted, We're good to go. Well, the workers themselves

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Speaker 1: have a say in that, because even though their leadership

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Speaker 1: might have agreed to this tentative agreement, they ultimately have

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Speaker 1: to vote and sign off on it as well. And

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Speaker 1: I think there's something like thirteen different rail unions which

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Speaker 1: are involved, and if any one of them says no,

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Speaker 1: this is not good enough for us. And let's be clear,

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Speaker 1: the provisions in it were only marginally better than what

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Speaker 1: had been offered previously. That means they would likely all

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Speaker 1: strike in solidarity. And we now have let's put this

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Speaker 1: up on the screen from Jodah Furman. BMWE, that's the

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Speaker 1: third largest of the rail unions, has rejected that railroad

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Speaker 1: company's tendative agreement. The vote was fifty six percent and

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Speaker 1: sen an earliest possible strike date of November nineteenth. Jonah

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Speaker 1: says this is huge. This alone is a huge deal

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Speaker 1: since a BMWE strike would shut down the national rail

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Speaker 1: freight system, but also makes me wonder if it'll affect

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Speaker 1: the two bigger union votes. Ballots for b l T

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Speaker 1: and smart TD rail workers mail out on October fifteenth

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Speaker 1: and are due back November seventeenth, So the two largest

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Speaker 1: rail unions have yet to vote on this as well.

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Speaker 1: So what Jonah was saying here is like seeing this

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Speaker 1: sign from the third largest rail union that their members rejected,

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Speaker 1: it may embolden them to also reject it as well.

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Speaker 1: Now in terms of the political consequences. Biden basically effectively

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Speaker 1: accomplished what he really wanted to, which was to kick

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Speaker 1: all of this down past the midterm elections. Obviously would

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Speaker 1: not be good for Democrats if you had a whole

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Speaker 1: you know, shut down of the nation's freight rail systems

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Speaker 1: and all of the catastrophic cascading consequences that would ensue

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Speaker 1: if that were to ultimately occur. So we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, in pushing this out to the earliest possible

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Speaker 1: of November nineteenth. But I just want to make it

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Speaker 1: really clear to people, like this was not a done deal.

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Speaker 1: The rank and file members do get a say, and

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Speaker 1: so far there are indications that they are none to impressed. Well,

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Speaker 1: that was what you always warned, is like, hey, just

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Speaker 1: because this is deal has happened, doesn't mean that it's over.

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Speaker 1: And that's of course media lost interest immediately whenever the

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Speaker 1: immediate gratifications, but you know, it might still happen, and

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Speaker 1: all they had to do was rejected at a pretty

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Speaker 1: sizable rate. Yeah, and even the deal itself, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we didn't know all the details, Crystal, but all these

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Speaker 1: guys we're asking for was like paid sick leave, like,

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Speaker 1: once again, it's not crazy, So like we should frame

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Speaker 1: their demands in a very reasonable expectation, and I would

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Speaker 1: I'd probably rejected if I was them too, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially when you have this must, this much leverage. So

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Speaker 1: we'll see how the political system reacts. I'm not seeing

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Speaker 1: how they will. Yeah. And the other piece to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind of this is that so rail labor is

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Speaker 1: governed by its own set of laws, specifically because any

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Speaker 1: shut down of the rail system obviously is an extraordinary

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Speaker 1: event and really detrimental the economy and all of those things.

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Speaker 1: So you have all of these sort of like levers

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Speaker 1: and loopholes that they have to jump through in order

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Speaker 1: to get to the place where they actually could strike.

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Speaker 1: So one of the final ways this could all be

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Speaker 1: short circuits if Congress came in and they could pass

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Speaker 1: the deal and say this is it and that's the

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Speaker 1: end of the story. So back when Biden and the

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Speaker 1: rail bosses and the union leaders were negotiating, there was

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Speaker 1: a real effort from Republicans and quite a few Democrats too,

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Speaker 1: to say, let's just force them to take the presidential

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Speaker 1: it's called the peb let's just force them to take

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Speaker 1: that deal, which was really bad and really favorable to

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Speaker 1: the rail bosses, and basically Bernie Sanders said, no, we're

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Speaker 1: not going forward with that, and then this tentative agreement

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Speaker 1: was able to be struck, which pushed things down the road.

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Speaker 1: But you know, if you have a different Congress, if

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Speaker 1: things happen in the midterms, you could still see a

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Speaker 1: possibility where Congress is like, no, we're just going to

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Speaker 1: cram down this deal that you guys have rejected and

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Speaker 1: that you don't want because it's more important to us

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Speaker 1: to keep the railways operating that it is ultimately to

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Speaker 1: resolve these worker concerns which have been lingering for years. Yo. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I agree. Look, we'll see how how it goes. My

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Speaker 1: feeling is, unfortunately, is I think Congress probably would take

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Speaker 1: that step, especially post midterm, right, I mean, why would

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Speaker 1: they listen and they would just try to avert the

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Speaker 1: strike by essentially forcing these guys to work and take

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Speaker 1: like one paid day off what is it? One paid month?

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Speaker 1: It's crazy a day, yeah, I mean, and we're not

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Speaker 1: even we're not talking about like weekends and no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: there are no weekends. It's like literally one day. Some

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Speaker 1: interesting news around the company liquid death, which has sparked

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Speaker 1: a lot of commentary. Let's put this up there on

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Speaker 1: the screen. They are now valued at a whopping seven

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Speaker 1: hundred million dollars for basically water and sparkling water and

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Speaker 1: a can. Now, first of all, full disclosure, liquid death

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Speaker 1: has been very kind to us. That actually gave us

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Speaker 1: a ton of free liquid death whenever we started this.

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Speaker 1: Oh nice, yeah, look it is. Honestly, it's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: We'll put that aside and we'll try and put on

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Speaker 1: a dispassionate hat. It's interesting. Uh. From my perspective, I

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Speaker 1: think actually the single best innovation of liquid death is

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Speaker 1: you can not drink alcohol as I basically do now

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Speaker 1: and not appear like a total square whenever you are

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Speaker 1: at a fit in at a venue. It also well

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Speaker 1: is more environmentally sound. Yes, that should make a pretty

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Speaker 1: good plastic as I understand it, in terms of recycling.

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Speaker 1: Aren't there health concerns about these like microplastics that you're

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Speaker 1: drinking when you're drinking, Yes, there are, but that anyway

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Speaker 1: we can go into a whole proven. No, they have

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Speaker 1: been proven. Are they the reason that testosterone is plummeting? And? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Is that one of the things that's Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of discussions like, oh, microplastics, so many of these areas.

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Speaker 1: I'm just totally very oblivious unfortunately. So it is a

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Speaker 1: whole conspiracy theory about not conspiracy theory there is. It's

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Speaker 1: true microplastics, a lot of other stuff is definitely affecting testosterone.

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Speaker 1: Is it the main reason why global testosterone is low?

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Speaker 1: As opposed to I don't know, being morbidly obese, not

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Speaker 1: working out a lot. I'm probably gonna go with the latter,

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Speaker 1: but it is a concerning you. No, it's certainly not helping,

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Speaker 1: no way. It's just that some people say that that

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Speaker 1: is the main cause and vice versa, like lifestyle instead. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I'm always a believer in lifestyle. For I became aware

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Speaker 1: of liquid death when they sent us a bunch of

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Speaker 1: their product and three months straight. Yeah, it was very convenient,

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Speaker 1: you know, for us to use on that and whatever,

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Speaker 1: and it just was the whole thing was so hilarious

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Speaker 1: to me because you do you see these can I

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Speaker 1: mean it's very aggressively mained liquid death, and like you

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Speaker 1: see these cans and the imagery on it and whatever,

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Speaker 1: and then you're like, wait, it's literally just water. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well sparkling. Yeah, and Kyle also enjoyed the sparkling water,

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Speaker 1: as you guys know, he's very into that. But apparently

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Speaker 1: like this is working out for them. I've been seeing

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Speaker 1: it blow up. Yeah, I mean, I like I said,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of it is just aesthetic,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you know, for people who want to

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Speaker 1: get water at a venue, Like if you're walking around

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Speaker 1: in a concert with a bottle, you just look like

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Speaker 1: a weirdo. And I'm saying that from personal experience, Whereas

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Speaker 1: when you're walking out on with liquid death, I guess

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Speaker 1: even if everybody knows it just fit in, you fit

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Speaker 1: in more. I see them selling it like seven to

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Speaker 1: eleven and others. My only question around this whole thing

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Speaker 1: is like how much of it is paid promotion because

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Speaker 1: at the same and by the way, that we're not

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Speaker 1: getting paid for this at all, but I hear a

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Speaker 1: lot of their advertise on like podcasts and others, So

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Speaker 1: I'm like, how much of this money is just going

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Speaker 1: back into promoting business? Are they doing like exclusive deals,

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Speaker 1: because I think that's one of the things that they said,

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Speaker 1: which is that Live Nation, which is one of those

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Speaker 1: concert venues actually one of the people who is leading

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Speaker 1: the funding round. So maybe the concert venues are realize

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Speaker 1: this is a way to like upcharge you, but I

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Speaker 1: haven't seen any evidence of that. I mean, you're getting

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Speaker 1: up charge at these menus regardless. I don't know. I'm

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Speaker 1: just interested in outside of the fact that, like you know,

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Speaker 1: we have sort of been interested in their business model

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Speaker 1: since we had some of their product and thought that

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Speaker 1: the whole model was kind of like, I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was hilarious, it's funny. I remember explaining it to me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it's just water and can right. I

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Speaker 1: did not believe it until I actually tried it, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, it's literally just water. It's an interesting

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Speaker 1: question of how much just brand, pure branding, how much

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Speaker 1: it matters, Like how much pure branding and aesthetic ultimately matters.

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Speaker 1: And you know, apparently at this point at least they're

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Speaker 1: what are those sales? I think it was like one

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Speaker 1: hundred twenty million dollars value, thirty million dollars, seven hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollar valuation, and it's only started in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: I will say their flavored one need some work because

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Speaker 1: they've got a bunch of carbohydrates in that so you

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Speaker 1: guys got to jack the sugar out of that and

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Speaker 1: make it like Lacroix or whatever and make it zero Cali.

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Speaker 1: Those of us who are on a diet can't be

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Speaker 1: screwing around with those sevens. That's to the flavoring of

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Speaker 1: it or anything else. I won't try the carbs in it.

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Speaker 1: I and a lot of my guys in my gym

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Speaker 1: also won't do the same things. Anecdote eleven. The water

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Speaker 1: is very watery. It's water. This water, the sparkling water.

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Speaker 1: I mean, okay, so I like sparkling water. I would

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Speaker 1: compare it. I think it is. I think Topo Chico

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Speaker 1: is the best, but it's a pain because it only

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Speaker 1: comes in glass. And also I read some interesting stuff

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Speaker 1: about whether their whole bottling process is actually maybe even

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Speaker 1: worse than microplastics, so that you put that onside. By

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Speaker 1: the way, I love Ta Chicken, get me wrong, probably,

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Speaker 1: and I would say, like what like, Kirkland is probably

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Speaker 1: like not the it's the worst, but it is the cheapest,

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Speaker 1: and I think it falls somewhere in the middle of them.

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Speaker 1: Okay in terms of sparkling. That's my review. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would drink it absolutely so anyway, Thank you and thank you.

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Speaker 1: Look with death. Apparently we're all very shallow people, because

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Speaker 1: you will fall for like pretty can and interesting labeling

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Speaker 1: and why not Okay, sure, why not. It's like social arbitrage.

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Speaker 1: We'll see you guys later. Hey everyone, this is Ken

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Speaker 1: Clippin sign with Breaking Points the Intercept edition. I'm joined

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Speaker 1: today by Pulitzer Prize winning journalist national security reporter James Risen.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking to you about a story that

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Speaker 1: we had in the Intercept recently, about something that the

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Speaker 1: intelligence community doesn't like to talk about, which is that

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Speaker 1: they and their intelligence made huge errors in terms of

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Speaker 1: how they thought the Russian invasion of Ukraine would go. Now,

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Speaker 1: to be clear, they were correct in anticipating the invasion

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Speaker 1: and that you know, it's gotten you know, no shortage

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Speaker 1: of accolades and things in the press, and they're very

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Speaker 1: happy to talk about that. The part of the story

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Speaker 1: they're not happy to talk about is the fact that

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Speaker 1: they thought that Kiev would fall within as quickly as

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Speaker 1: a day or two, and that not only that they

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Speaker 1: brief President Biden on the expectation that when Kiev fell,

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Speaker 1: the best that they could hope for was arming the

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Speaker 1: insurgency covertly. Jim's been in the business for a long time,

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Speaker 1: has a lot of source of the national security community. Jim,

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Speaker 1: what was it like reporting on this story and what

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Speaker 1: do you make of that the CIA got this so wrong? Well, first,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me, and second I think, yeah, you're right.

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Speaker 1: It's there's a long tradition of the CIA getting things

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Speaker 1: like this wrong. Where they are not you know, the

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Speaker 1: US intelligence community, not just the CIA, the broader community

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Speaker 1: has become so reliant on technical intelligence on satellites and listening, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, eavesdropping and other kinds of technical monitoring that

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Speaker 1: they can They're good at counting tanks and seeing large

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Speaker 1: armies and where they are, but they're not very good

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Speaker 1: at understanding the human side of things, like how much

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Speaker 1: corruption there is in another government, or the morale or

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Speaker 1: the spirit of an army, or the incompetence of training

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Speaker 1: and how much you know, contracting is being diverted for embezzlement,

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Speaker 1: things like that. And so they were able to see

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Speaker 1: before the war, Yes, the Russian Army is deploying huge

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Speaker 1: amounts of troops and equipment onto the order of Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: and they could watch it over time, over the year

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Speaker 1: before the invasion, they saw deployments moved back and forth

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Speaker 1: and what they finally, you know, the army, the Russian

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Speaker 1: Army had units i think in the spring of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one near the border with Ukraine, and then they

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Speaker 1: pulled them back, and then they began to put them

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Speaker 1: back near the border in the fall of twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: And when they started that deployment, it was obvious that

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Speaker 1: it was becoming more larger and more permanent. But they

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Speaker 1: weren't able to tell oh, yeah, the soldiers don't want

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Speaker 1: to be there. The equipment is terrible, they don't have

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Speaker 1: enough fuel, things like that. So they were they could

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Speaker 1: watch and count things, but they can't weren't able to

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Speaker 1: do much in terms of the qualitative intelligence. It's interesting,

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like what you're saying, and you know,

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Speaker 1: this tracks with what my sources told me and reporting

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Speaker 1: on the story, was that this endemic corruption, these kind

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Speaker 1: of cultural problems within the Russian military was not picked

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Speaker 1: up on despite the billions of dollars we're throwing at

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Speaker 1: all of these sophisticated technical means that you know, might

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Speaker 1: might work at what they're designed to do, or might

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Speaker 1: not because there's not a whole lot of oversight in

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Speaker 1: the way of, you know, looking at where we're putting

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Speaker 1: on money in these forms of technology that doesn't get

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Speaker 1: at I mean, when I interviewed former you know, CIA

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Speaker 1: case officers, who themselves are in spies in their careers,

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Speaker 1: they were saying, we don't do as much of the

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Speaker 1: human stuff in terms of just talking to people, and

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Speaker 1: that that is the way that you find out all

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Speaker 1: these kind of problems. The reason I think this all

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Speaker 1: matters to the general public and is a bigger story

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Speaker 1: than just a gotcha on the CIA, although I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to do that when it's actually true, is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have had a bloated Pentagon budget for any number

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Speaker 1: of decades, justified largely on the idea that you know,

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Speaker 1: these these these great powers like China and Rush are

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Speaker 1: you know, these these ten foot tall giants that are

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Speaker 1: gonna you know, overwhelm us if we don't, you know,

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Speaker 1: throw all this money at them. And then you look

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Speaker 1: at the nature of the performance and you see that

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Speaker 1: not just the rife, corruption, but the incompetence and the

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Speaker 1: failure to move beyond the few territories that they've taken.

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Speaker 1: Right next to their own country. What does that say

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Speaker 1: about the again, billions of dollars that we've given virtually

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Speaker 1: carte blanche to these national security agencies to meet this

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Speaker 1: threat that it looks like isn't as powerful as we thought. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that goes back to the Cold War. In

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Speaker 1: the early eighties, there was a divide within the CIA

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Speaker 1: analytical community over the scale and power of Russia's ballistic

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Speaker 1: missiles fleet and its nuclear weapons, and there was a

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Speaker 1: huge fight between Republicans and Democrats. It actually started in

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Speaker 1: the seventies over whether the CI was being hawkish enough,

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Speaker 1: and it became a very political fight, and the Reagan

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Speaker 1: administration really came down on the side of the people

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Speaker 1: in the intelligence community who were more hawkish, and so

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Speaker 1: those people began to get promoted over the people who

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Speaker 1: were less hawkish about the Soviet Union, and it became

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Speaker 1: known within the intelligence community that if you wanted a career,

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Speaker 1: if you wanted to get promoted, you better be hawkish.

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Speaker 1: There was a whole This started the career actually of

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Speaker 1: a lot of the neo conservatives, who by the time

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Speaker 1: of nine to eleven were very senior people in the

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Speaker 1: Bush administration and became the leading neo conservatives like Paul

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Speaker 1: wolf Woitz and Doug Fife and people like that. So

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Speaker 1: there's a long history here of the politicization of intelligence

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Speaker 1: on Russia towards being more hawkish the UH, and they

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Speaker 1: were wrong on the Soviet Union. They missed the collapse

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Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union and the follow the Berlin Wall UH,

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Speaker 1: and then you know that it never really got better.

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Speaker 1: One of the problems was that the CIA had a

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Speaker 1: tradition of recruiting spies inside the kg and that was

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Speaker 1: good for counterintelligence purposes. They could find out what the

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Speaker 1: KGB was doing to spy on the CIA and find

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Speaker 1: out about moles in the CIA, but they never had

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Speaker 1: any real spies in the Kremlin who could tell them

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Speaker 1: about Russian political intentions, and that was a real handicap.

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Speaker 1: Because they could they were good at in other words,

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Speaker 1: they were good at figuring out KGB spying operations, and

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Speaker 1: to some degree, they also knew a lot about the

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Speaker 1: Russian order of battle because they were also able to

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Speaker 1: recruit Russian military officers to some degree, and they had

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Speaker 1: a lot of spies who gave them information about Russian

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Speaker 1: the technical side of Russian military equipment. But they never

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Speaker 1: had much intelligence about actual crump the Kremlin's intentions, and

428
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 1: that became a huge problem for them. And interesting, then

429
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: go ahead, I'm sorry. It sounds like there's a rich

430
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: history of these sorts of intelligence failures that that that

431
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,199
Speaker 1: spans back to I mean, as you said, failing to

432
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,959
Speaker 1: anticipate the fall of the Berlin Wall, and more recently,

433
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: in the context of reporting on this story, something I

434
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: didn't include. We didn't include it in it because it

435
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't time permitting. But notion I heard

436
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: again and again and talking to people in National security

437
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: state was we were so embarrassed by Afghanistan and the

438
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: collapse of Kabule in the timeframe that it happened that

439
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: we overcompensated and came and looked at this and said, okay, well,

440
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 1: how do we not get in a situation where we

441
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: don't where we say, oh no, this this government will

442
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: last for a year or two, as they said in

443
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: the case of Afghanistan, And then they massively overshoot in

444
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 1: the other direction and say, as I was told, and

445
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: you know, Congress was briefed on this, that Kiev is

446
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 1: going to fall within forty eight hours. Now, you know,

447
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: I think it's easy to sit here and be I

448
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 1: think the reason I'm not being Money Morning quarterback here

449
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: because I'm not saying that, you know, okay, they didn't

450
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: get exactly right, but to say that the capital is

451
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: going to fall within two days, it's just like so

452
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: far off the mark, right, it makes you really wonder

453
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: about this stuff. It's getting beef to the president, you

454
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: know right now. The one one thing I would add

455
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: about the background in the history is that you know,

456
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: all that history about the problems in the Cold War

457
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: was made worse after nine to eleven when the CI

458
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: really gave up on traditional intelligence, not entirely, but they

459
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: the focus became military operations, paramilitary operations and targeted killings

460
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: with drones and with special forces, and they counter terrorism

461
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: became their number one priority, and traditional intelligence and espionage

462
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: was reduced. Uh, And that I think we're seeing that

463
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: at the the bad effects of that. Now they don't

464
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: have the traditional they haven't rebuilt their traditional espionage operations

465
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: since yeah, well, well in their defense, in their defense,

466
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: how are you going to make a bunch of money

467
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: for contractors if you're just hiring spies on the ground

468
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: to talk to people, you can make a whole lot

469
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: more money selling AI systems that as in your reporting.

470
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: You know, our pitch to policymakers is being able to

471
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: decode secret messages in Al Jazeera to warn people about

472
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: terror attacks. You know, does it work? No, but does

473
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: it make the guy that invented it a whole bunch

474
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: of money? Yeah? It does pay any price available in bookstores.

475
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: H yeah, No, it's true. It's uh, it's it's a

476
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: there's a huge The amount of money that is being

477
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: put towards US intelligence is really kind of shocking and scandals.

478
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: The SI's budget doubled during the first few years of

479
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: the War on Terror, and I think it's probably doubled again.

480
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what the exact number is today, but

481
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: it's just o'b scene amounts of money, and it's all

482
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: going for this technical intelligence, which is very good for

483
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: what it does. But if you've ever been to Afghanistan

484
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: or Iraq and seen the way US the US presence

485
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: was there, it's very understandable to me why we didn't

486
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: have very good at human intelligence. Everybody drives around in

487
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 1: massive convoys of hum v's because they're afraid of anybody

488
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: getting kidnapped. Rightfully. So, you know, the US embassy and

489
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: Cobble was a fortress, couldn't get anywhere near h and

490
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: so the idea that they had much interaction with locals

491
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: who they could you know, have secret conversations with was

492
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure they did some of it, but

493
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: it was very difficult for them to be in a

494
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: position to understand the Taliban very well or to understand

495
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: what was really going on on the ground. Yeah, well,

496
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: there's no question these are endemic problems and once you're

497
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: not going to hear about in the media outlets that

498
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 1: have the relationships with these agencies that they do. But

499
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: for anybody that wants to just open the book. One

500
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: of the things I felt good about for our story

501
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: was the degree to which so much of the other

502
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: coverage on the CIA during the Ukraine War has been

503
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: about the successes they've had, and you know they've had.

504
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 1: You know that you as you just pointed out up

505
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: correctly at the beginning, it did accurately predict the invasion,

506
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: and they predicted the timing probably more. What was more

507
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: impressive for them was predicting the timing rather than the

508
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: actual idea that they were going to invade and that

509
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: almost certainly came from listening to conversations between Russian generals

510
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: and political leaders when they had to tell the generals

511
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: when to go. Yeah, you know that's but you know

512
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: the idea that they completely missed the impact of corruption

513
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: and deceit in the Russian system is this is shocking

514
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: and amazing to me. All right, Jim, I want to

515
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us once again. This is Ken

516
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: Clippe signed with Breaking Points, the Intercept edition. Time now

517
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: for our weekly partnership segment with our friends over at

518
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: the lever Joining us this morning is David Saroda. Great

519
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: to see you, sir, Good to see you. Let's put

520
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: your latest reporting up here on the screen. I'm really

521
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: glad you covered this because this is something I've been

522
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: wanting to dig into your headline. Here is health insurance

523
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: get government cash, then jack up prices. Despite the Affordable

524
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: Care Acts promises, publicly subsidized insurers are jacking up prices

525
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: while Americans lose coverage. And David, one thing that we

526
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: noted this week is, you know, we got the new

527
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: inflation numbers, which continue to be bad in a lot

528
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: of categories. One of the categories where we saw the

529
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: highest price increases was in health insurance. So it seems

530
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: to me like you're telling a really important piece of

531
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: the story here that I haven't seen covered really anywhere else. Yeah,

532
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: well it's a huge story. You know. I'm glad we

533
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: start on the inflation question. You know, there's all this

534
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: talk that inflation is driven by supply chains and products,

535
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. Health insurance is notoriously an industry

536
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: of paperwork. It does not really have supply chains. So

537
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: there's this debate is inflation about supply change chains or

538
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: is it about oligopolies and monopolies using their market power

539
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: to just jack up prices, using inflation as an excuse

540
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: to pad their profits. So here's a perfect example of

541
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: an industry of paperwork that doesn't have supply chains, an

542
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: oligopolized industry of like, you know, a few giants controlling

543
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: lots and lots of markets just jacking up their prices

544
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: by twenty four percent in a single year. That to

545
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: me is proof that at least that part of the

546
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: inflation crisis is just companies deciding to say, hey, we

547
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: have lots of market power, we don't have real competition,

548
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: and we can just turn up the prices and squeeze

549
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: people for more. Now, our reporting shows that six of

550
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: the seven major health insurance companies are now making the

551
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: majority the majority of their revenues from the government. That's

552
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: according to former health insurance executive Wendell Potter, who did

553
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: the research. And so you put these two points together.

554
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: The government, we the people, are subsidizing the insurance oligopolies,

555
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: who are then turning around and rewarding us with twenty

556
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: four percent year over year price increases. So the other

557
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: piece of this is the fact that when he was campaigning,

558
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: and especially in the Democratic primary, president now President Biden

559
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: than candidate Biden, was under a lot of pressure from

560
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders and others to put out some sort of

561
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: a healthcare plan that could compete with the vision of

562
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: universal coverage under say, a Medicare for all program. And

563
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: so what he campaigned on was, Hey, we're going to

564
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: go back to the original idea of a public option

565
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: that can compete with this. And since he's been in office,

566
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: they've also been pushing this idea of let's further subsidize

567
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: health insurance so that more people can afford it and

568
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: will effectively get to guaranteed coverage that way. However, as

569
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: we face down a critical miterm election with more Americans,

570
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: as you put it, being inadequately covered, and something pushed

571
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: down of health insurance altogether, we have heard really nothing

572
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: about what the Democratic Party might do if they keep

573
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: power with regards to health insurance or healthcare in general.

574
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit more about that piece. Yeah,

575
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really crazy healthcare. It feels like it's

576
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: gone from the political agenda, gone from the election conversation.

577
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: Biden campaigned on a promise to create a public option,

578
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: a government sponsored health insurance option to compete with private insurers.

579
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: The Congressional Budget Office has said that if structured properly,

580
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: it would create the kind of competition that would reduce premiums,

581
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: put downward pressure on that, for instance, twenty four percent

582
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: price increases that we've seen year over year under the

583
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: current system. Since becoming president, he has not mentioned the

584
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: public option even once. Not once. The major policy proposal

585
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: that Democrats have put forward is, as you say, more

586
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: subsidies to ACA exchange plans and the like, essentially shoveling

587
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: even more money at the insurance companies, which, of course

588
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: again are using their market power to simply jack up prices.

589
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: The point being, you cannot solve this problem, this cost

590
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: of living problem, because this is part of cost of living. Obviously,

591
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: you cannot solve that problem by simply throwing more money

592
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: at it and doing nothing else. You have to do

593
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: something different. But unfortunately the Biden administration and the Democrats

594
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: don't seem interested in even having a conversation about what

595
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: could be done. And there are plenty of things that

596
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: could be done. The public option could be done, some

597
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: forms of Medicare for all could be discussed. I mean,

598
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: there are many things that could be done. But a

599
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: lot of health insurance money goes to the Democratic Party.

600
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: It is a big base of support for the Democratic Party.

601
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's first fundraiser in twenty nineteen when he announced

602
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: for president, was with the CEO of one of Blue

603
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: Cross's major affiliates. That's how tightly woven in the health

604
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: insurance industry is with the Democratic Party and explains why,

605
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: amid a very real healthcare affordability crisis, two in five

606
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: Americans are either uninsured or under insured. That's why you

607
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: don't see, in my view, you don't see real policy

608
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: prescriptions being put forward by the Democratic Party leadership. This

609
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: is part of something actually Senator Sanders critiqued in The Guardian,

610
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: which is the fact that you know, for Americans, overwhelmingly,

611
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: they tell polsters their number one issue is the economy

612
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: and inflation. Yet Democrats have effectively completely seated that issue

613
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: to Republicans. One hundred percent of their messaging is around

614
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: abortion or close to it. And listen, I'm on their

615
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: side on abortion. I think it's an important issue. I'm

616
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: not trying to say it's not. But when you have

617
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: voters overwhelmingly saying this is the thing that I'm voting

618
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: on and that I care about, you should probably be

619
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: offering some solutions that are actually going to be able

620
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: to help them out on economic matters. The other piece, David,

621
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: I wanted to get from you for people who don't

622
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: understand this piece, this thing called Medicare advantage, essentially like

623
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: a privatized version of Medicare that has grown increasingly large

624
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: and important in terms of our overall health insurance ecosystem.

625
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: Could you help people understand what that is and how

626
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: that plays into this overall story. Sure, the Trump administration

627
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: kicked off really accelerated and the Biden administration has continued

628
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: to accelerate the push of seniors Medicare recipients off of

629
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: traditional Medicare into privatized, privately administered Medicare advantage plans. These

630
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: plans often have high rates of denial of care of

631
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: necessary care, according to a federal report, and the cost

632
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: of these plans are huge. They are costing their reports

633
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: of billions and billions of dollars of cost overruns. Obviously

634
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: another gift to the health insurance companies. This is why

635
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: so much of the health insurance insurer's money, the revenues

636
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: they're making, are from the government. You know, I go

637
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: back to the Affordable Care Act. The Affordable Care Act

638
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: was sold to Americans as a way to preserve the

639
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: privately financed health insurance system and reduce costs for Americans.

640
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,959
Speaker 1: Now we have a system where six of the seven

641
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: largest health insurers are mostly publicly financed, even though they

642
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: are privately administered, and healthcare prices keep going up, and

643
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 1: you've got to and again, part of that is because

644
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: so many people are being funneled into Medicare advantage plans.

645
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: And of course part of that is because there's the

646
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: government's only solution that they're offering is let's subsidize ACA plans.

647
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: Let's throw more money at the health insurers to do

648
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: ACA plans. But it's not actually necessarily medical care. The

649
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: health insurers are psyched. They're making huge profits the rest

650
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: of us. It's not such a great story. It's really

651
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: the Unaffordable Care Act. Yeah, I mean classic story. Socializing

652
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: the cost and privatizing all the profits is exactly what

653
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: we're doing here. David. Thank you so much for reporting

654
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: on this. Great to see you. Everybody, go subscribe to

655
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,439
Speaker 1: the Lever if you are able. They are doing work

656
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: that no one else is doing and digging into these

657
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: stories and exposing corruption on both sides of the aisle.

658
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: Great to see you, my friend. Great to see you.

659
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Hi. I'm Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor

660
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 1: in chief of the Real News Network and host of

661
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: the podcast Working People. And this is the art of

662
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: class war on breaking points. The strike is labour's greatest weapon.

663
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: When the bosses already have the power to hire and fire,

664
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: when they have the power to coerce and control because

665
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: they hold our checks and thus are lively hoods in

666
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: their hands, When they have the political power that money buys.

667
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: When they have a legal system that overwhelmingly protects their

668
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: property and commercial interests over the rights and needs of

669
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: working people, and when they also have at their disposal

670
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: the vicious muscle of the police, the deck is stacked

671
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: in their favor, and that, at least in the US,

672
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: is how it was designed to be. No matter how

673
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: many politicians, small business tyrants, and Chamber of commerce boot

674
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: lickuers whine about employers and investors not being able to

675
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: do whatever they want and that they have to deal

676
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 1: with some marginal regulations and pesky things like workers' rights.

677
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: Whether it's dipshits who have never had a real job

678
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: like Ben Shapiro or couse playing shills for big business

679
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: like Mike Rowe. If anyone out there is trying to

680
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: convince you that unions are these all powerful ties and

681
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: that bosses and businesses are more politically and legally handstrung

682
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: in this country than workers are, I promise you they

683
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: are either lying to you or they are so ignorant

684
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: about what they're talking about that you probably shouldn't be

685
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 1: listening to them. But here's the thing. The deck has

686
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: always been stacked in the boss's favor. That's been true

687
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: since the existence of bosses. The people at the top

688
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: of hierarchical power arrangements are there because they have more

689
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: power than the people below them, and they wield that

690
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: power to impose their will to maintain that hierarchical system

691
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: and to flortify their own privileged place within it. That

692
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: is why the soul of the labor movement is collective

693
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: rank and file organization and action. There are more of

694
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: us than there are of them, as the adage goes,

695
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: and workers' strength, the power they have to counteract the

696
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: power of the bosses, comes from their numbers and their

697
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: ability to mobilize and act as a group. That is

698
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: as true now as it ever was. As the Great

699
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: Big Bill Haywood, a founding member and leader of the

700
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: Industrial Workers of the World, famously said, quote, if the

701
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: workers are organized, all they have to do is put

702
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: their hands in their pockets, and they have got the

703
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: capitalist class whipped end quote. So why is that the case?

704
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: What is it about workers collectively withholding their labor that

705
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: tips the scales. Well, it's kind of obvious, but the

706
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: point is to disrupt production, to disrupt business as usual,

707
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: to shut shit down as is worker's right to do

708
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: if they are being treated poorly and unfairly, because sometimes

709
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: that is the only way to get the bosses to listen.

710
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: If workers can be prevented from causing such disrupt or,

711
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: if their actions can be safely circumvented with scabs and

712
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: legal loopholes, then their demands can be safely ignored. Our

713
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: right to strike is the foundation of the whole social contract,

714
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: holding this poor excuse of a society up. If we

715
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: don't have that right, or the cost of exercising that

716
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: right becomes such a powerful deterrent that few actually exercise it,

717
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: then we are just submitting to whatever unelective executives and

718
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: managers want to dole out to us. We are resigning

719
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: ourselves to the fate of bugs squashed under the boot

720
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: of the necessary march towards whatever great future this capitalist

721
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: system wants us to have. And right now, many eyes

722
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: within the labor movement are fixed on this rogue Supreme Court,

723
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: which has agreed to hear a case that could seriously

724
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: restrict our right to strike, which would have huge implications

725
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: for all of us who consider ourselves workers, or who

726
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: consider ourselves part of what Richard Wolf described to me

727
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: as the order taking class, not the order giving class.

728
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: Earlier this month, the justices on the Supreme Court agreed

729
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: to review a case that had been adjudicated by the

730
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: Washington State Supreme Court titled Glacier Northwest, Inc. Versus the

731
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: International Brotherhood of Teamster's Local Union Number one seventy four.

732
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: We're going to do our best in today's segment to

733
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: break down this case and its implications without getting too

734
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: mired in a bunch of eye glossing league lees. But

735
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: what you need to know up front is that the

736
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: Seattle based ready mixed concrete supplier, Glacier Northwest, which does

737
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: business as col Portland, sued the Teamsters Local one seventy four,

738
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: claiming that a one week walkout by workers in twenty

739
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: seventeen involved intention property damage that the union should have

740
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: to pay for. According to the union, before drivers walked

741
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: off the job, they returned loaded trucks to the company's

742
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: yard and left them running so that the concrete in

743
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: the mixing drums could be safely unloaded. The company, however,

744
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: alleges that the union timed the work stoppage so that

745
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: the concrete would harden in the mixing drums. Become unusable

746
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: and cause costly repairs. Now, given this Court's clearly demonstrated

747
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: ideological and political mission to further empower employers and the

748
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: ruling class writ large, and to disempower working people and

749
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,959
Speaker 1: roll back our rights, there's obviously a lot of fear

750
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 1: right now that a ruling in this case could shatter

751
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: decades of precedent and enable employers to make workers and

752
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: unions pay incredibly steep prices for exercising their right to

753
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: strike and for causing the very economic disruption that is

754
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: again the whole point of a strike. To talk about

755
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: all of this and more, I'm honored to be joined

756
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: today by Terry Gerstein. Terry is the director of the

757
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: State and Local Enforcement Project at the Harvard Law School's

758
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: Labor and Work Life Program, and she is also a

759
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: senior fellow at the Economic Policy Institute. Terry, thank you

760
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today on breaking Points. Thank

761
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: you so much for having me today. I'm really concerned

762
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: about this case and really happy to have the opportunity

763
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: to just to drill down a little bit and explain

764
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: what the case is about. Well, again, I really really

765
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time. I know you're super busy,

766
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: and I'm freaked out about this case too, and I

767
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: desperately need your expertise here because I know that you know,

768
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: like I said in the intro, like our eyes can

769
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: start glossing over when we get into the legal eese here.

770
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: But you know, the implications of this case are arengus

771
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: and so I was wondering if we could kind of

772
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: start by just sort of yeah, breaking down. You know

773
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: what this case is about and why you know, you

774
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: think the Supreme Court granted it a review. So in

775
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: terms of what the case is about, you summarize some

776
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: of the most important facts. There were workers who went

777
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: on strike. They're basically the company Glacier, had a contract

778
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: that ended and eleven days later workers went on strike.

779
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: And the company makes cement and has special prepared cement

780
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: that is quick dry and so if it's not poured

781
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: within twenty or thirty minutes, it will dry out. And

782
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: the workers went on strike. The work day is such

783
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: that some workers start at two am, when the cement

784
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: has already been mixed, and they started staggered times going

785
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: to seven and they went on strike at seven am.

786
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: What happened as the workers then the ones who were

787
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: still at the company premises, you know, went on strike,

788
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: left the cement trucks running so this cement would not

789
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 1: dry out. The workers who were out delivering cement brought

790
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: the trucks back to the company premises and again also

791
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,439
Speaker 1: left the trucks running, so this cement wouldn't dry out.

792
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: If the cement had dried out and the trucks had

793
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: been turned off, for example, that could have ruined the

794
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:30,919
Speaker 1: trucks and rendered them unusable. So what happened in this case, though,

795
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: was that the company wasn't able. They were able to

796
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: clean out the trucks. There was no damage to the premises,

797
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: no damage to the vehicles, but the cement for that day,

798
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: they were able to remove it from the trucks, but

799
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: it wasn't usable in the end because the company didn't

800
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: have a backup plan. It was during active negotiations. It

801
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: happened less than two weeks after the prior contract with

802
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: the new strike clause had expired, and so you know,

803
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: it perhaps would have been prudent for them to have

804
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: in my that this was among the possibilities and have

805
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: some contingency plans, but this amount was damaged. What happened

806
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: in the court case, the employer filed what's called a

807
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: tort lawsuit, and you know, a tort lawsuit is basically

808
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: a lawsuit for economic damages. It's you know, someone did

809
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: you harm and they owe you money for it. And

810
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 1: the employer filed a tort lawsuit in state court saying,

811
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: we lost all this cement and we should be able

812
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: to sue the union for damages because we lost all

813
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: this money because of the cement. Now, usually that kind

814
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: of lawsuit wouldn't be allowed, and this is where it

815
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: does get a little wonky. It does. It's not allowed

816
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: because of a concept called preemption. And the whole idea

817
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: is that the National Labor Relations Act or federal labor

818
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: law is supposed to be supposed to be kind of

819
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: uniform nationally, and states aren't supposed to be allowed to

820
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: kind of weigh in either in favor or against the

821
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: union or the employer. The idea is that they kind

822
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: of came up with this whole scheme and it's supposed

823
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: to be all managed at the federal level. And there

824
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: are a few exceptions to this, Like you know, the

825
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: classic example is if someone punches someone on a picket line,

826
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: that's assault, and the state can get involved. So there

827
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: are some exceptions to preemption, and what's happening in this

828
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: case is that Glacier is arguing that because the cement

829
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: was damaged, that that's akin to something like dam like vandalism,

830
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 1: and so falls outside of preemption. And they should be

831
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: able to not just be governed by the nlr be

832
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: sort of within the confines of the NLRB and the

833
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: National relations that are federal labor law, but they should

834
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: be able to go into state court and file a

835
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: claim for economic damages. And you know, this is really

836
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: troubling because some economic harm to employers is implicitly part

837
00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: of what a strike is. That's just part of what happens,

838
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: that's part of sort of you know, the cases talk

839
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: about the economic weapons that are contemplated by the National

840
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 1: Labor Relations Acts and our federal labor policy, and some

841
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: economic harm to the employer is what gives workers their

842
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: collective leverage. And a strike, again, they're not allowed to,

843
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: you know, take a bat to the to the front

844
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: door of the company. They're not allowed to to do

845
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: things that sort of go beyond that normal economic harm.

846
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 1: And so what's really troubling about this case is that

847
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, arguing that loss of one day's supply is

848
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: akin to vandalism, you know, or punching someone on a

849
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: picket line, to that kind of like really intentional property damage.

850
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: It's really troubling. And and and the company argues as

851
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: well that the timing of the strike is part of

852
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: what makes it fall outside of preemption, that they timed

853
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: the strike in a way that is, like I made

854
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: it particularly harmful because the cement was already mixed and

855
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: therefore that caused the damage. But again, you know, workers

856
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: can choose strategic timing for their strikes, you know, and

857
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: to argue that strategic timing or losing you know, a

858
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: day's supply of products, there was no harm to the vehicles,

859
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: no harm to the premises or anything like that. It's

860
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: just a very dangerous precedent to think that it would

861
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: be permitted for the employer to then sue a union

862
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: for damages you know, in a way that could be

863
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, potentially extremely harmful financially to them. Right, Like

864
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: you said, like it's it's really dangerous because that's the

865
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: whole damn point of these actions, right, I mean, if

866
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: Amazon workers walk out on Prime Day, there's a very

867
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: obvious reason why they're doing that, right, and if employers

868
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: can somehow use and weaponize the courts to say that

869
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: this is you know, vandalism that unions have to pay for,

870
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: that's obviously going to be a huge disincentive for folks

871
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: to go on strike. And I wanted to sort of

872
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: kind of build on that here. You know, you already

873
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 1: started touching on this, but but you know, let's talk

874
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: a little more about why this matters, right, and what

875
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: the implications could be, you know, depending on the decision,

876
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: what the implications could be for workers collective right to strike?

877
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,479
Speaker 1: And I mean, are there any positive outcomes that could

878
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: happen from this? Well? I mean, I think the negatives

879
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: really far outweigh the positives. I did. There are some

880
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: positives that I'll talk about in a minute, But when

881
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: you think about the implications as well, when you think about,

882
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that the concrete was quick, dry

883
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: and sort of in a sense like a perishable product. Right,

884
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: there are so many things our entire food chain consists

885
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: of perishable products. Right, Does this mean what does this

886
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: mean about the right to strike for everyone from you know,

887
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: food processing workers, restaurant workers, people who make yogurt people

888
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 1: who work in ice cream stores. One of the major

889
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: cases in fact that the union cited in its brief,

890
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: and I think the Washington State Supreme Court which came

891
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 1: out against Glacier against the company, I think the Washington

892
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: State Supreme Court cited as well, dealt with cheese a

893
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: cheese workers who had walked out in a cheese company

894
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: in Colorado. The facts of that case are basically, the

895
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: workers wanted to have Christmas afternoon off, as they had

896
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: been promised, and so they walked out on cheesemaking. And

897
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: then the cheese was a lower quality and the employer

898
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: made less money selling the cheese as a result. And

899
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: again in that case, which I believe was an NLRB

900
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: case and didn't end up in the courts, but in

901
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: that case, the decision was that, you know, the fact

902
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: that the cheese was of a little lower quality doesn't

903
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: render the strike unprotected by the National Labor Relations Act.

904
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: So you know, when you when you start to sort

905
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: of spin out, like what are perishable products? And even

906
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: there are products that aren't perishable in the way that

907
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: food is perishable or quick dry concrete is. But you know,

908
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: there are different kinds of products and services that are

909
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: seasonal as well. You know, clothing and fashion can be seasonal,

910
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: or you know, the entire retailers the entire months of

911
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: December before the Christmas and winter holidays. So but in

912
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: terms of potential silver linings, this whole issue of National

913
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: Labor Relations Act preemption that the federal law, you know,

914
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: anything that is arguably covered by the federal law, states

915
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: and localities are not allowed to get involved in. This

916
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: is something that has been used often by employers to

917
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: prevent workers from having certain kinds of rights. So for example,

918
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 1: even right now, there's a case going on. New York

919
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: City passed a law creating just cause termination for fast

920
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: food workers that they can't be arbitrarily fired and they

921
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: have to have some kind of you know, job related

922
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 1: reason for being terminated, and that that law is being

923
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: challenged in part on National Labor Relations Act preemption grounds,

924
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 1: saying that this interview, this is arguably covered by the

925
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: National Labor Relations Act, and it's you know, a city

926
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to make this kind of law. And so,

927
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: you know, reading this case, it's interesting for me as

928
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: someone my own background is in state labor law enforcement

929
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: and I work with a lot of states and localities,

930
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 1: and you know, we're often having conversations about what are

931
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 1: ways that states and localities can actually protect workers without

932
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 1: being constrained by preemption. And so logically, if the employer

933
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: is allowed to sue the workers or the union and

934
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: for damages, for economic damages in state court, for striking,

935
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: logically that weakening of preemption should create some space for

936
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: workers too to have other now non existent state and

937
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: local opportunities for remedies or action that could benefit workers.

938
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: You know, could a worker sue for damages for an

939
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: employer if the worker is terminated in retaliation and as

940
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: a result of not being paid wages ends up being

941
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 1: evicted for example, And there's there's a tour called intentional

942
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: infliction of emotional distress, like are there damages that a

943
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 1: worker workers could sue for? Does it open the door

944
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: for more action by progressive states and cities. So logically,

945
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: if the Supreme Court were actually going to be consistent,

946
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: if they were going to loosen preemption and say, yeah,

947
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a wider area that states

948
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: can get involved in, logically that should redound not only

949
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: to employers benefit in some instances, but also to workers.

950
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: You know, there's a goose. You know, it's good for

951
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: the goose is good for the gander. Issue here and

952
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 1: in that prospect, frankly, I think should give the justices

953
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: some real pause, even the conservative justices, because you know,

954
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: I don't think that they're concerned about preserving the right

955
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: to strike or workers right to take collective action. But

956
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: they may be concerned about overreaching by states or workers

957
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: or unions pursuing employers in various ways, you know, just

958
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: given the composition of the court though, you know, I

959
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: think it's it's it's just really concerning. They seem to

960
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: be very good at finding ways to thread the needle.

961
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: You know, in this case, you really would have to

962
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: thread the needle to say like, yes, you know, preemption

963
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: is relaxed, but only for the employer. And you know,

964
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: their ability to read the needle to come to outcomes

965
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: that are pro corporate and that our anti worker you know,

966
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: are just you know, it's been troubling and disappointing, you know,

967
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: obviously you know for several years now, so so very

968
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: you know, to me, this case illustrates the need, among

969
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: many other things, just an urgent need to have court

970
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: reform because with the Supreme Court we have, you know,

971
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: it just creates a lot of really bad outcomes on

972
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: a lot of issues that many of us care deeply about. Right.

973
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you say, if the court you know,

974
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: wants to be consistent, that's a big if with this court,

975
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: right I mean, And I think that's why we're all

976
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 1: so nervous about stuff like this, right because we've seen,

977
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: as you said, that this Supreme Court you know, like

978
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: really is wearing its politics on its sleeve. It's making

979
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: it very clear that is trying to kind of take

980
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: the outcomes that the court, the majority of the court

981
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: already want, and kind of you know, shoehorn some sort

982
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: of legal justification to you know, come out the other

983
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: side with those outcomes. And so there's the obvious kind

984
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: of point, as you said, about the ideological kind of

985
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: makeup of the majority of the existing court. But there's

986
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: also like a thing that I that I try to

987
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: emphasize for folks, like the larger sort of system that

988
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: we're seeing at work here is also very much stacked

989
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: in favor of employers, of investors, of major corporations of

990
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: the ruling class writ large, because you know, when the

991
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: court system becomes so costly and prohibitive and takes so long,

992
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: right to kind of move cases through the courts, let

993
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: alone get up to the level of the Supreme Court.

994
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: You know, obviously there are going to be a lot

995
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: of cases that make get there when they can ride

996
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: on waves of cash from you know, employer advocacy groups,

997
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: conservative donor groups, shadowy you know packs and stuff like that.

998
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: Like in a lot of ways, the courts are policy

999
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: making by like through the side door. Right, because just

1000
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: like the infamous Janis decision in twenty eighteen, this case

1001
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: that you know, the Supreme Court has agreed to hear,

1002
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: right is is It's not like just some mom and

1003
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: pop who like filed a lawsuit and somehow that case

1004
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: made it all the way to Supreme Court. Like no, like,

1005
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: there are a lot of outside interested parties that are

1006
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: trying to push you know, like this case all the

1007
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: way up to the Supreme Court and get the kind

1008
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: of outcome that they want. And so I wanted to

1009
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: ask if you could just sort of talk a little

1010
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: bit more about, right, you know, like the sort of

1011
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, class interests that this Supreme Court is serving.

1012
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: And like another question I had is you know, is

1013
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: this some thing that you know, the Biden administration or

1014
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 1: Congress could kind of cut off at the pass with

1015
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: any sort of executive order or legislation. Well, that's a

1016
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: great question, and your observations about the Court are exactly

1017
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: spot on, because in addition to the Janis decision, we've

1018
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: seen other decisions in the last few years that have

1019
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: really shown hostility to work or collective action. There was

1020
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 1: the Epic Systems case, and in that case that was

1021
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: you know, it sort of was written about and understood

1022
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: as being about forced arbitration and sort of blessing, you know,

1023
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: giving one more blessing to employers forcing arbitration on workers.

1024
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 1: But the Epic Systems case was really about whether requiring workers,

1025
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: as a condition of employment, to give up the right

1026
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: to bring a class action, you know, which is inherently

1027
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: collective action, whether requiring employees to give that up violates

1028
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: the National Labor Relations Act. And it's you know, again,

1029
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 1: it's a real example to me, as you said, of

1030
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: sort of outcome based you know, jurisprudence that they came

1031
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: out against, you know, and found that it wasn't a

1032
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: violation of the NLRA. They could have harmonized the Federal

1033
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: Arbitration Act and the Nationally Rer Relations Act and they

1034
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 1: chose not to. And then more recently in the last session,

1035
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: there was a case Cedar Point Nursery in which there

1036
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: was there's a californ There was California state law. I

1037
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 1: guess there still is. I don't know the exact status

1038
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: of it, but the California law allowed unions to go

1039
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: on to farmed you know, agricultural job sites for like

1040
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 1: a super modest period of time, you know, you know,

1041
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: during a very limited number of days per year. And

1042
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: the reason is obviously because farm workers are isolated and vulnerable,

1043
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: and they're working in rural areas that are hard to reach.

1044
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 1: And so the Supreme Court basically found that this California

1045
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: law was a taking, an unconstitutional taking of the grower's

1046
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: property without just compensation. The reason I say, I'm not

1047
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: sure what the current status is is that generally, if

1048
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: something's a taking, it means that you have to give

1049
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: just compensation. And so I don't know how you how

1050
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 1: you calculate just compensation for like letting organizers on for

1051
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 1: you know, thirty minutes of you know, a few times

1052
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: during the calendar year. But both of these cases just

1053
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: really show hostility to collective bargaining. But in terms of

1054
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: the question of what Congress can do again, this case also,

1055
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 1: as as so many things do these days, just to

1056
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: me illustrates the importance of the midterms and how much

1057
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 1: does it stake because borrowing from another area, you know,

1058
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had a really bad decision recently, earlier

1059
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: this year about the Clean Air Act that constrained the

1060
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency's ability to act and certain circumstances. And

1061
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: Congress when they passed the Inflation Reduction Act, they basically

1062
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: rectified that and like change the definitions so that now

1063
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: the EPA has the authority to do what the Supreme

1064
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: Court said the prior statute didn't permit. And so there

1065
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: are ways that Congress, if we get a Congress that

1066
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: will actually do, you know, work for working people and

1067
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: really fight for these issues, you know, and we need

1068
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: to make sure that, you know, we need to we

1069
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: need to make sure that we get worker champions in office.

1070
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: You know, Congress would have the ability potentially to legislate

1071
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 1: in a way that could obviate the bad results of

1072
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: this decision. Well, and I want to pick up on

1073
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 1: that quickly, right, and then I gotta I gotta let

1074
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 1: you go because I know you're I know you're busy,

1075
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: and we got to wrap this up. But this is

1076
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: like such a crucial point that I want to stress

1077
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: for anyone you know, watching and listening to this, right,

1078
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: because I think the situation that all of us are

1079
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 1: in in relation to the current Supreme Court or the

1080
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: Supreme Court in general, right, really crystallizes the dynamics of

1081
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: power in this country. Right, because I you know, for

1082
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: anyone watching, regardless of what your politics are, I know

1083
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 1: that you know, we may be kind of like cheering

1084
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: on or lamenting, you know, the decisions that are being

1085
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 1: made by this court as if they're being somehow made

1086
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 1: for us, right, you know, like oh yay, you know,

1087
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 1: like the Supreme Court got, you know, overturned Row. That's

1088
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 1: a huge win, you know for you know, the people

1089
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: who wanted that to happen, right, or you know, you

1090
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 1: may have been cheering on earlier in the year when

1091
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court you know, basically overturned OSHA's authority to

1092
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 1: enforce vaccine mandates or weekly testing for large employers who

1093
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: have one hundred employees or more. Right, you may consider

1094
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 1: that a win for your side. What I want to

1095
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: stress is that the Supreme Court does not give a

1096
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: shit about you, right. I Mean, there's a very kind

1097
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,919
Speaker 1: of clear class dimension going on here where you could,

1098
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: in fact interpret a lot of these decisions as kind

1099
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 1: of buttressing the power of the ruling class and disempowering

1100
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: working people, right, because that is the net effect, you know,

1101
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: losing abortion rights. Who's that going to hurt working people,

1102
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: working families. It's going to hurt people's ability to make

1103
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 1: a living. The number one justification for people getting abortions

1104
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 1: is financial need, right, I mean, And the EPA ruling

1105
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 1: that you mentioned, Terry, You know, look at Louisiana. Who

1106
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: are the people who are going to be living in

1107
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: sacrifice zones because it's the only place that they can afford.

1108
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: And now that you know corporations can just you know,

1109
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: pollute the air, water and so on and so forth

1110
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: even more, who's going to suffer from that? Working people?

1111
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 1: Even the Osha case that I mentioned earlier. You may

1112
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 1: be totally ideologically opposed to vaccine mandates and weekly testing. Fine,

1113
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm honestly too exhausted to get into that right now,

1114
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: but you should know that the justify cation that was

1115
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 1: given in that court ruling for saying that OSHA did

1116
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: not have the authority to implement this rule. There are

1117
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 1: large implications for that, because what they said is that

1118
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: COVID is a general condition that is not limited to

1119
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: the workplace. Thus employers have no special requirements to increase

1120
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 1: safety measures for their workers. Now, think about climate change.

1121
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 1: We did a segment a couple months ago on the

1122
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: heating in ups package cars. Right as climate change gets worse,

1123
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 1: we employers can point to that same ruling and say, well,

1124
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, the climate problem is a general problem. It's

1125
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: not a workplace problem, so we don't have to do

1126
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 1: shit to protect our workers who are boiling out, you know,

1127
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: in the agricultural fields or warehouses or package cars, so

1128
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 1: on and so forth. Right, So, just think of the

1129
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: fact the implications of these and what they mean for

1130
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: working people in general, instead of getting sucked into this

1131
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 1: position that we're always in where we're cheering on one

1132
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 1: side or the other, and effectively we are put in

1133
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 1: the position of like the citizens of Tokyo cheering on

1134
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: Godzilla or Mathra and just hoping that they fall on

1135
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: the right buildings. Like we have no influence here, Like

1136
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: we are very much at the mercy of a court

1137
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 1: that is serving out carrying out the interests of the

1138
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: ruling class with these rulings. Terry, does that sound like

1139
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 1: do it? Do it? Do I sound completely off there? Well? Well,

1140
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: one framework that I would add to what you were

1141
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 1: saying is that a lot of what you're describing and

1142
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: a lot of these problems stem from sort of the

1143
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 1: logical extension of the eighties and the whole kind of

1144
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: you know, attacking the public sector and the Raken era

1145
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: of you know, the government is bad and we don't

1146
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: need I mean any end. What the government is it's

1147
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 1: you know, socializing needs and collectively sharing you know, I

1148
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: mean everything from parks and libraries and hospitals and highways

1149
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 1: and you know public transit, which our country you know,

1150
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: does not nearly you know, we don't nearly invest enough in.

1151
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 1: But the entire sort of dismantling of the state of regulation,

1152
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 1: of anti trust enforcement it you know, that's sort of

1153
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 1: again and there are obviously, you know, corporate interests that

1154
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 1: don't want to be regulated and and so I think

1155
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,640
Speaker 1: that's also part of the context of all of this,

1156
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 1: is like deregulation, the free market kind of run amok.

1157
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 1: And and I think also in moments like like when

1158
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 1: we have a pandemic. You know, there are certain situations

1159
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: like when we have a pandemic like COVID, when we

1160
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 1: have climate change, the hurricane in Florida, these are moments

1161
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 1: when I think people realize there are situations that we

1162
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:56,200
Speaker 1: just cannot address individually, and we need to have some

1163
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 1: sense of collective action, you know, separate from collective action

1164
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 1: in the world place, to collective action as the public,

1165
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: as as fellow human beings, and that people realize they

1166
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,719
Speaker 1: really do need, we do need the state to play

1167
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: a really important role. And I think there is a

1168
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 1: danger of thinking about, you know, the important role of

1169
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: the state only in those crisis situations, because there is

1170
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 1: such a critical role for the state in the public

1171
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 1: sector in so many different ways. And so I think

1172
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 1: that's also you know, a lot of these Supreme Court

1173
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:34,560
Speaker 1: decisions have just been very anti regulation, very anti oversight

1174
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: of corporations, and that's something again, as you said, that

1175
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 1: redounds to all of our detriment. You know, people can't

1176
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 1: really we haven't figured out a way yet for people

1177
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 1: to buy their own air I mean there are collective

1178
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:51,200
Speaker 1: you know, there are ways that wealthy people obviously, you know,

1179
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:57,240
Speaker 1: have options that everyone else does not. But in the end,

1180
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: there really are some collective of interests that we all share.

1181
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: And dismantling the regulatory state in this way, you know,

1182
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 1: not allowing anything from gun laws to environmental laws, to

1183
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 1: workplace laws, you know, that's something that really harms everyone.

1184
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 1: So that is Terry Gerstein, the director of the State

1185
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 1: and Local Enforcement Project at the Harvard Law School's Labor

1186
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 1: and Work Life Program and a senior fellow at the

1187
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 1: Economic Policy Institute. Terry, thank you so much for coming

1188
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:34,519
Speaker 1: on today and sharing your brilliant so generously with us.

1189
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: We really really appreciate it. Thank you so much for

1190
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: having me. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you all

1191
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 1: for watching this segment with breaking points, and be sure

1192
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 1: to subscribe to my news outlet, The Real News, with

1193
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 1: links in the show description. See you soon for the

1194
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 1: next edition of the Art of Class War. Take care

1195
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 1: of yourselves, take care of each other. Solidarity Forever