1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but we still have 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: an amazing show for you Today. Katie Gadini stops by 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: DO to talk about her new book Esther's Army, The 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: Christian Women who Power the American Right. But first we'll 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: talk to Isaac Butler about his new book, The Perfect Moment, 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: God Sex, Art and the Birth of America's Culture Wars. Welcome, Welcome, 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: Isaac Butler. 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's so great to be here. 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: Molly, it's so great to have you. So let's talk 12 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: about The Perfect Moment, God, Sex, Art and the birth 13 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: of America's Culture Wars. 14 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 2: Yes, I hold up a copy. 15 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: Yes do you have a copy? 16 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: I have a copy right here ready. 17 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: Let's see it. Yes, boom, I actually have it. I 18 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: just got it sent to me. 19 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: Oh great, well it's very beautiful. 20 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: First of all, talk to me about like sort of 21 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: the method and how you got from there to hear. 22 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't maybe seem like the most obvious connection. 23 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: Right, that's what And then I was like, yeah, no. 24 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 2: No, it's fine. I mean I'm a person with a 25 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: lot of different interests, and I really love you know, 26 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: you've written a book. You know this, You're gonna be 27 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 2: living with a subject for at least three years, sometimes more. 28 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: And I don't want to write about something where I 29 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 2: already know all the answers, because that just gets real 30 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: boring after a while. And I think you can tell 31 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: on the page when someone is just reciting what they 32 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: already know. So I like to do things that I 33 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: think I understand pretty well. But also there are enough 34 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,639 Speaker 2: mysteries that actually my mind is going to be blown 35 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: at various points, because then I feel like I can 36 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: recreate that on the page, and that's that's pleasurable for 37 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: us all in this case. You know, my last book 38 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: was The Method, How the twentieth Century Learned to Act, 39 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: which is kind of a biography of an idea, and 40 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: that idea being what we sort of call the method, 41 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: or what Stanislavsky, the creator of it, called the system, 42 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: which is this approach to acting. It's actually the first 43 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: major interior focused approach on acting and how that transformed 44 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: Russian popular culture and then American popular culture in theater 45 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: and film and politics and all sorts of stuff like that. 46 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: I loved doing that book. That book was a blast. 47 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: I still love writing about acting. I'm still asked to 48 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: talk about it. It's had a lovely long tale, which 49 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: I'm unbelievably grateful for. While I was writing that book, 50 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: there was an announcement that at the time it was canceled, 51 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 2: and then eventually it was turned into a postponement, and 52 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: then it finally did happen. But there was this announcement 53 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: that a retrospective of the work of Philip Gustin, who's 54 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: one of the greatest painters of the twentieth century, was 55 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: being indefinitely delayed because there were paintings with somewhat cartoonish 56 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: renditions of clansmen in them that he did late in life. 57 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: And the idea was kind of the paintings themselves weren't 58 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: explicit enough in their condemnation of white supremacy, and then 59 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: even if they were, the very existence of those images 60 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: could traumatize unsuspecting viewers. And I was really really fucking 61 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: furious about this, I'll be honest. Yeah, And I was like, well, 62 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: having lived through the Culture Wars in the eighties and 63 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: nineties and lived in DC, and my mom was involved 64 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 2: and blah blah blah blah blah, like what happened here? 65 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: Why is why are we on the left doing this now? 66 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: And I would sort of be talking to younger people 67 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: and be like, you know, it's like with the NEA four, 68 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: and they would look at me and say the what now. 69 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: And that's when I realized maybe I needed to write 70 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: a history about the culture wars in the eighties and 71 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: nineties to start thinking about free expression as a left 72 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 2: wing value. Now, I should say, shortly after I started 73 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: writing it or thinking about it, stuff like that, don't 74 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: say gay Bill, and you know, all this stuff happened. 75 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: And halfway through writing it, Trump was elected. So I'm 76 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: not here to say, you know, woke went too far 77 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: or anything like that. I actually think for the most part, 78 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: for the most part, left wing censorius is more like 79 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: annoying and silly most of the time. It doesn't really 80 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: tend to have various serious consequences. It's quite an asymmetrical thing. 81 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 2: But I did want to reclaim and examine free expression 82 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: through the lens of this particular very bizarre history of 83 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: when the religious right declared war on American art in 84 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: order to build power within the Republican Party. And you 85 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: know this is even though sometimes the amount of money 86 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: we're talking about here for grants or whatever is one 87 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty bucks. One of the controversies over one 88 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty dollars. You know, this series of battles 89 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: gave the Republica, the religious right a permanent hold on 90 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: the Republican Party cost George H. W. Bush reelection. I mean, major, major, 91 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: major things happened as a result. 92 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: This is something I'm actually really interested in because it's 93 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: the idea that, like the narrative that woke went too far, 94 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: created a world where you could make anti trans athletes 95 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: an entire platform. 96 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, totally. I mean I don't buy it. One 97 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: of those epiphanic moments while researching the book was looking 98 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: at the history of political correctness. I'm putting that in 99 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: quotes or PC, and it's literally exactly the same, which 100 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: is to say, a left wing self deprecating joke from 101 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: college campuses. In that case, PC, which really did start 102 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: as a joke right making fun of ourselves, gets captured 103 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 2: by the right and turned into this looming thought police 104 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: apocalypse thing that is just not real. And then they 105 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 2: then use that to seize power and persecute their ideological enemies, 106 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 2: which the left was never attempting to do. Never, no 107 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: mainstream figures were arguing that we should do that, like 108 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: that was not a real thing, And so then the 109 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 2: right uses that term to then do the very thing 110 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: they're accusing us of. I think that for the most part, 111 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 2: when we're talking about woke went too far, blah blah 112 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: blah blah blah, that's really just victim blaming. The truth 113 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: of the matter is the right was extremely well organized 114 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: and opportunistic. 115 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: My I think that's right victim blaming. I think that's 116 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: exactly right. And I hadn't heard it like that, but 117 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: that makes the most sense. 118 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 2: My feeling is the problem with left wing sensoriousness is 119 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: twofold one. We're not in power in much of the 120 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 2: United States. You know, there's some universities, there's the arts mostly, 121 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 2: but like we don't control a lot of things. So 122 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 2: if we start arguing that free expression doesn't matter, and 123 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 2: all that matters is power, right, and once you have power, 124 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: you can like come up with a pretext for policing 125 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 2: people's expression, Like that's gonna hurt us more than it 126 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 2: hurts them. So that's the sort of practical case, right, 127 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: and then there's the principled case, which is just like 128 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: I believe in a lot of old fashioned liberal Enlightenment values, 129 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: and one of them is for the most part, a 130 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: deference to free ex Russian norms. 131 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, no question. This is something I'm very interested in. 132 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: Is this idea that there is that we are in 133 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: like a series of backlashes, right, Like if you go 134 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: back to the AIDS crisis, Right, the AIDS crisis, you 135 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: have people like literally dying, yeah, and the government ignoring it. 136 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: You know. I think about the activists I know, and 137 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: like a lot of them become radicalized from that. Yes, 138 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: the gay male activists I know certainly become radicalized from 139 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: that because they have a government that is like intentionally 140 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: ignoring what is a plague. So then they do great art. 141 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: That great art catches fire like angels in America, that 142 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It creates a sort of like renaissance. 143 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: There's a pushback to that renaissance, right, the feeling that 144 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: the culture has usurped the power of the government in 145 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: a way and become so powerful and interesting and important 146 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: that it left gets power that way. And I mean 147 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: I think some of what you see with trump Ism, 148 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: I think is that you see a president who the 149 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: thing he figured out was the culture. Like the way 150 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: he's managed to win on almost nothing has always been 151 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: his ability to get into the culture. 152 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, I mean you're raising two great points there. 153 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: A lot of my book is of course about the 154 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: AIDS crisis, and it's worth saying it wasn't just the 155 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: government that was neglecting people in the ads. You know, 156 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: the New York Times wouldn't print the partners of people 157 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: who died of AIDS in their obituaries. They sometimes wouldn't 158 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 2: even less the cause of death as AIDS. They wouldn't 159 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: refer to gay people using gay, you had to use 160 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: the word homosexual. You know, the culture writ large had 161 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: pushed these people at in LGBTQ Americans and people with 162 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: AIDS and their allies and loved ones and friends fought 163 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: back in all sorts of ways. And one of the 164 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: ways they did was that they realized that the arts 165 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: was actually a place where that viewpoint could get expressed. 166 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: And a lot of what the religious some of what 167 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: the religious right is angry about is the content of 168 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: that work. But part of what they're angry about is 169 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: that that work exists at all. 170 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: It could be the most. 171 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: Polite shit in the world. What the adult want is 172 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: gay people having any voice in our society and so. 173 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: And it being cool and like people wanting to be 174 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:22,719 Speaker 1: a part of it. 175 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: And the National Endowment for the Arts, which they really 176 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: the religious right really goes to town on in the 177 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: eighties and nineties and now looks like it's actually going 178 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: to be eliminated by the Trump administration. Likely of course, 179 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: the National Endowment for the Arts is like the only 180 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: place in the government where queers and people of color 181 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: have together, like that coalition have a real power center, 182 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: and so of course it's got to go, you know. 183 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: As for Trump, Yeah, I mean what Trump is and 184 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 2: his sort of network is really good at is not 185 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 2: only making him culturally ever present. They really understand the 186 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 2: manipulation of images, trolling, you know, all that stuff. I mean, 187 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: first term, Trump is evil fascists, don't get me wrong, 188 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: also very funny, right, yeah, second Trump, it's a little different. 189 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: But like do you remember that video where Trump is 190 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: it's during the first presidential campaign where he does a 191 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: Marco Rubio impression and dumps a bottle of water on 192 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 2: his own face. It's like it's like something you would 193 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: see at a Friars Club roast, you know, So's you know, 194 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: that's his genius. Yeah, of course. But the other thing 195 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: they're good at is picking up on these like little 196 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: pickying things that don't matter, right, some dumb Oberlin students 197 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: protesting the quality of Japanese food in the cafeteria or whatever. 198 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: And college students. And I say this as someone who 199 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: loves college students. I teach at a college. I actually 200 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: learn a great deal from them. But it is also 201 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 2: worth saying that there's a level of emotional heightenedness and 202 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 2: impulsiveness in that community. And so you can often count 203 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: on colleges to, you know, burp out a kind of 204 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 2: stupid story about leftists getting together and protesting something the 205 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 2: wrong way with the right. 206 00:10:59,200 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 3: You know. 207 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: Fox and this is very good at finding these little 208 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: not very important you know, it's not even a tempest 209 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 2: in a teapot, it's a tempest in a thimble, and 210 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: then acting like it's a national crisis. And Trump is 211 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: extremely good at that. 212 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: And the encampments were a great example of that. There 213 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: certainly were students who were pro palaced on and it 214 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: certainly is you know, a big important story in the 215 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: fact that what's happening right now impalist. But the point 216 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: of it wasn't about that, right. The point of that 217 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: was the colleges are no longer safe for Jewish kids. 218 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 2: Right, which I mean I'm Jewish, right, yeah, yeah, I'm 219 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: Jewish and not a Zionist. I don't really call myself 220 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: an anti Zionist, but I'm not a Zionist. Yeah, And 221 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: you know, I just thought that whole thing was ridiculous. 222 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: I mean, as I say in the book, one of 223 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: the reasons why I was this was way before October seventh, 224 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: that I was telling people on the left, like, embracing 225 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: censoriousness is not going to work out for you. One 226 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 2: of the things I would play to a Steven Salatia 227 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: or you know, the who's a you know, a professor 228 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: who got me buy your listeners? 229 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but now none of us know who the 230 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: fuck that is. 231 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: Oh okay, well he was a he was a He 232 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: was a professor who had basically his tenure invalidated for 233 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 2: pro Palestinian speech, right, and then you know, but if 234 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: you look pre ten seven, you know, pro Palestinian speech 235 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: speech in favor of Palestinian liberation is being greed, which 236 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: is a left wing position for the most part, is 237 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: being greeted by everyone from the liberal establishment on over 238 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: with immense hostilities. So it's like, guys, this isn't going 239 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: to work out for us. And I think you saw 240 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: that with those encampments. Now, Like, is it true that 241 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 2: there were possibly, you know, a handful of anti Semitic 242 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 2: incidents in those encampments? Sure, probably you know. 243 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: But it was never about that, right, It was always 244 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: never about that, right. No, it's never about keeping Jews safe. 245 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: It's always about just using this as I. 246 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: Certainly don't feel safer with the Trump administration in the 247 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: White House using that now to crack down on the 248 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 2: left in the higher education system. 249 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: Right for sure. For sure, give me a sense of 250 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: what you think sort of what would what what do 251 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: you think the like the possible way out of this 252 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: scenario would be Humm. 253 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 2: It's really hard. I will say what one one thing 254 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: that we're never going to get away from, okay, which 255 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: is to say that whenever you know, America does not 256 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: have a fixed national identity. Our citizens do not have 257 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: a fixed identity. It's not like France, where there's like 258 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: a literal board of people who decide what it means 259 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: to be French and what French culture is right, So 260 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: there's no authority that we can appeal to there. So 261 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: there's always going to be these moments of contest, these 262 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 2: moments of friction over culture, because there's always going to 263 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: be a fight over who we are to give a 264 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: you know, a to me very fun exactmple from the 265 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: nineteenth century in New York City. There's this these rival 266 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: productions of Macbeth that lead to the astor Place riots 267 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: right well, because one of those productions of Beth start 268 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: an Englishmen and one of them start an Irishmen, and 269 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 2: that is about Irish immigration and what kind of country 270 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: are we going to be? Right, So this is always 271 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: going to happen. I think we have to make our 272 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: peace with the fact that these fights are going to happen. 273 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: That said, I think we can get a lot smarter 274 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: about them, We can get a lot better organized about them. 275 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 2: We can really invest in the idea that the arts 276 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: and culture matter, that you know, the liberal values of 277 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: free inquiry and free expression matter. But I do think 278 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: in terms of the specific awfulness of the moment that 279 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: we are currently in one of the big things. And 280 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: I don't know that I believed this before I started 281 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: writing the book as much as I absolutely do now, right, 282 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: is that you have to be willing to actually have 283 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: the fight. Over and over and over again. In my 284 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: book and in the first year of Trump administration, the 285 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: second Trump administration, we find this particularly among big institutions 286 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: or people who are used to and comfortable with their power, 287 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: this idea that oh, well, if we just give them 288 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: a little bit, they'll back off. Right, Let's just give 289 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: them these nominees, let's just let them pass these bills, 290 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: or let's just settle this lawsuit and then they'll back off. 291 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: Right. 292 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: It doesn't fucking work. They are classic schoolyard bullies, right, yeah. 293 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: They you know, they say get out of my way 294 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: to weep, and you do, and then the next day 295 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: they're like, I want you lunch money, asshole, you know 296 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, like, it's that mentality, that's all 297 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: it is. And you see that over and over and 298 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: over again in my book as well. Every time. You know, 299 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: usually a very well meaning, smart member of the sort 300 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 2: of liberal old guard is like, well, let's just let's 301 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: just take the pressure down and give them a little 302 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: bit of what they want, right, It just embodies them 303 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: to yeah, just embolds them to attack further. And I 304 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: find by the time we got to year five of 305 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 2: the Obama administration, we would have learned that that was 306 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: a mistake. He never learned that that was a mistake 307 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: for some reason, and I think a lot of the 308 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: democratic and liberal establishment still hasn't learned that that was 309 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: a mistake. You might lose that fight, okay, but if 310 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: you don't have the fight, A, you've already lost it, 311 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: right and B you've emboldened them and give them power 312 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 2: and energy that they can use to pick a fight 313 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: with the next person. The more you fight them, the 314 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: more energy, money, political capital hours in their day, legal fees, 315 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: everything they have to spend to try to beat you. 316 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: And the more you do that, the slower the system gets. 317 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: It's just like like Democrats are in the minority, right, 318 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: the Republicans have the trifecta. I when people say there's 319 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: not a lot that they can do, I actually am 320 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: very sympathetic to that viewpoint. But one of the things 321 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: they could do is just slow everything the fuck down 322 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: and force the Republicans to over and over and over 323 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: again spend time and energy just grinding through to get 324 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: their wins. I mean, I don't know I watched the 325 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: Knicks last night, right, I don't know if you did, 326 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: but that's very much what the Spurs defense was doing. 327 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 2: You just make it like a real slog to score 328 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: any points and eventually like it wears the other team out, 329 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 2: like you know what I mean, Like it's not actually 330 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: work at science. 331 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: So what you're saying is it's like running candidates in 332 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: red states. That's that's more they have to spend money 333 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: in Ohio. The more the less they can spend in Virginia. 334 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, people made fun of Beto 335 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: O'Rourke a lot for how often he ran for office 336 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: or whatever, but he was forcing tech. He was forcing 337 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 2: the National Republican Party to spend money in Texas, right 338 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 2: like like, and that freed up us to go fight 339 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: everywhere else. You know, Howard Dean's old fifty straight fifty 340 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 2: state strategy was not a dumb one. I think, you know, 341 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: we fight all over the place, and for those of 342 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: us on the left, it also means, particularly in local 343 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: races and stuff, we're probably fighting our own party, you know, 344 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: the Amanda Littner in the run for Something. People are 345 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: very open about this, and I think they are extremely 346 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 2: smart about what it takes. But yes, a very similar 347 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: strategy on. 348 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: Every gest of the podcast. 349 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, she's great. 350 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: I think that's interesting and important. So do you think 351 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: we're just forever doomed to be in a cycle of 352 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: backlash to backlash? 353 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 2: I mean, I hope not. Part of the reason why 354 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 2: we're trapped in this cycle right now is that, you know, 355 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: there's no consensus about anything in American society. One of 356 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: the reasons why we could escape those kinds of backlash, backlash, backlash, 357 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 2: backlash in the post war era until roughly the end 358 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: of the Reagan administration is because like, as a society, 359 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: we sort of generally agreed about a fixed set of 360 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 2: about a set of things, you know, and now we 361 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: don't agree about anything. You know, we don't agree about 362 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: like a fluoride in the water is good for you, 363 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: or you know, whatever it is. I mean to give 364 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: an egg sample that connects to you. You know, fear 365 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: of flying was caused the NEA a lot of headaches 366 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 2: when it came out. 367 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: Oh, I know, when you mentioned the NEA, I was 368 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: thinking about my. 369 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 2: Mom yeah, yeah, And but actually, you know, it caused 370 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 2: some news. 371 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: Stories for a couple of weeks, I think pay back. 372 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But I'm just saying it's like it was 373 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: not like a huge deal, and then we moved on, 374 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 2: right Whereas where I mean to the society, I'm sure 375 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: it was a huge deal. To her, it was a 376 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: huge deal of the NEAA or whatever. You know. Then 377 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 2: you fast forward to nineteen eighty nine and similar controversies 378 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 2: about much smaller amounts of money. They last for months, 379 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 2: their front page news below the fold, while the Berlin 380 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 2: wall is coming down above the fold, you know. And 381 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: part of that's that we just didn't agree on anything anymore. 382 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 2: We don't have any kind of way out. I genuinely 383 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: do not know what the way out is. I don't 384 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 2: know if we want to have a new version of 385 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: the post war consensus uh at all. But we have 386 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 2: to are trying to build some kind of common ground around, 387 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: you know, sort of the basic tenets of reality. And 388 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 2: the problem is is that you know, we've got this 389 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: is where the government piece comes in and the regulatory 390 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: piece comes in. Is that we have, like all these 391 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: tech companies that are devoted to fracturing all of our 392 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: senses of reality so that they can harvest our attention 393 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 2: and make money, you know, And until we start regulating 394 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 2: them and breaking them up, I don't know what the 395 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 2: way out is. 396 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, thank you, Isaac. 397 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 2: Thank you so much more. 398 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: Katie Gandini is a visiting scholar at Stanford University and 399 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: the author of Ester's Army, The Christian Woman Who Power 400 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: the American Right. Welcome, Welcome, Katie, Thank you, thanks for 401 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: having me talk to us about Esther's Army. What is 402 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: your central premise here? 403 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 4: So my central premise is that women have played a 404 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 4: huge role in the Christian right throughout the lacks fifty 405 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 4: five years, and they haven't been acknowledged for the role 406 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 4: that they've played, and they have essentially helped usher us 407 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 4: into this political moment that we're in with Donald Trump 408 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 4: as president. 409 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: How have they done that? 410 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 4: I take a historical perspective in the book as well, 411 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 4: looking at how they did a lot of behind the 412 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 4: scenes activities in the seventies and eighties and the nineties, 413 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 4: sending out newsletters, activating grassroots campaigns, sometimes drafting legislature. I 414 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 4: interviewed some women who worked on the Reagan administration, but 415 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 4: weren't front and center and didn't have big names, whereas 416 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 4: now they play much more prominent roles, not only the 417 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 4: women that we see on television that are part of 418 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 4: the Trump administration, but are much more actively involved with 419 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,959 Speaker 4: being trained to be leaders in the conservative movement. 420 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: I mean, is this Phillis Schafflight, Like, where does this start? 421 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 4: It starts in the seventies, so I start with I 422 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 4: mean that have much less historical material compared to the 423 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 4: contemporary stuff because I am an ethnographer, so most of 424 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 4: my stuff is from the Trump years and doing on 425 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 4: the ground research, but I also try to draw through 426 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 4: line with where these archetypes came from or where these 427 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 4: women came from. 428 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: So give me a sense of like what the women 429 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: on the ground look like from Trump's first administration and 430 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: where they came from, and give me an example of it. 431 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 4: So I profiled six different types, like a taxonomy of 432 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 4: these right wing Christian women to show also that there's 433 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 4: a breadth, there's not just one type. So I look 434 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 4: from gen Z women all the way to white suburbanites. 435 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 4: I profiled black conservative women because that's been a recent 436 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 4: gains that Trump made, especially in twenty twenty four and 437 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 4: show the kind of widening of the coalition and how 438 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 4: they a lot of women got politically activated after the 439 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 4: pandemic and got really involved in politics much more than 440 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 4: they had been ever before. 441 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: Interesting, give me an example of someone like that. 442 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 4: So an example would be I met several women who 443 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 4: told me that in during the pandemic there eyes were opened, 444 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 4: they were activated, and they can never go back. And 445 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 4: I was really curious to find out when I started 446 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 4: doing interviews again in twenty twenty four to the lead 447 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 4: up to the election, if the women that had been 448 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 4: so hyped up after the pandemic would still be rallying 449 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 4: and leading protests, or if they would have kind of 450 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 4: gone back to what they were doing before, homeschooling their kids, 451 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 4: voting maybe at a presidential election. Turns out they have 452 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 4: not gone back. They are still very involved in politics, 453 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: and it. 454 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 3: Takes different shapes. Of course. Some are much more locally concerned. 455 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 4: They want to be on the school board, they want 456 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 4: to influence local policies. But then especially when we're talking 457 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 4: about the younger women, I mean, they have political aspirations. 458 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 4: They want to go to law school, they want to 459 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 4: be on the Supreme Court, I feel. 460 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: Like there's a difference between like women who got radicalized 461 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: by the pandemic, or is there and the Maha women. 462 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 3: No, there's not. 463 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 4: They're in the same Okay, yeah, well they're They're not 464 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 4: the same. But different grips got radicalized during the pandemic. 465 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 4: So some did a health direction. Some got radicalized in 466 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 4: the direction of the governments trying to interfere with my 467 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 4: kids and I need to protect them, but not thinking 468 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 4: about health necessarily. 469 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: Now it's we're like ten steps beyond health. 470 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 4: Now we're you know, thinking about trans youth and trans rights. 471 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 3: It's not even about health anymore. 472 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 4: And then I think some of the radicalization happened, honestly 473 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 4: with the first Trump administration and the young people or 474 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 4: even you know, not even young people that I met 475 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 4: who supported Trump and received a lot of backlash in 476 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 4: their communities, and that just radicalized them. 477 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: Wait because other people didn't like dump. 478 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 3: That made them mad and made them. 479 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 4: More conservative, way more and not just more conservative. It 480 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 4: changed the style of engaging in politics, more aggressive, feeling 481 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 4: more under attack, feeling. 482 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: That self pitying like a Charlie Kurrup kind of. 483 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean. And turning point was a major 484 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 3: factor in that as well. 485 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: Oh, explain how Turning Point was a major factor in that. 486 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 3: Okay, so let's talk about the younger women. 487 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 4: So I inter several women at Liberty University, which was 488 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 4: the biggest right wing college in the country. 489 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 3: Several of them told me they went to high school 490 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: in blue. 491 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 4: States or they were in a red state, but there 492 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 4: were liberal students, you know, in their high school. They 493 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 4: would post support for Trump on social media. They got 494 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 4: a lot of backlash, and then they found a Turning 495 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 4: Point USA conference where they were around all these like 496 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 4: minded people. They were hearing from the stage that they 497 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 4: were under attack by this liberal mob, and that radicalized 498 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 4: them and it really set in motion their whole trajectory. 499 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 4: Then they decided to go to Liberty. Then they decided 500 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 4: I'm going to be a lawyer. Then they decided I'm 501 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 4: going to do this internship. Then they decided I want 502 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 4: to work at Heritage Foundation. It kind of changed the 503 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 4: course of their life. 504 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: So is this a big group? Where are they now? So? 505 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 4: Conservative Christian women in the US is roughly thirty two 506 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 4: million people, so it is a sizeable part of the electorate. 507 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 3: When we think about it that way. They do overwhelming. 508 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 4: They tend to vote Republican, and they have held steadfastly 509 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 4: to Trump since twenty sixteen, so we haven't seen big 510 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 4: dips in their support for Trump. 511 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: They're non college educated or some are college educated. 512 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 3: A lot are college educated. I mean a lot. I 513 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: met our law school educated. 514 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: Are they all just like religious salads? 515 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 4: I mean, it's hard to know how much of it 516 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 4: is the religion and how much of it is the politics. 517 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 4: When I interviewed women, they'll always say faith comes first, 518 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 4: But they really fit their faith to match their politics, 519 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 4: because certainly there's a lot of ways you could say 520 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 4: that the Christian faith does not align with trump Ism. 521 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: Right, that is wild? So you think they've just gotten 522 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: sort of angry or and louder. 523 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 4: I think they've gotten more invested and more passionate about 524 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 4: their political beliefs and issues. And now their party and 525 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 4: their movement is in dominance, and I think that has 526 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 4: added a level of amplification. 527 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: So what would if you're if we're thn you met 528 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: elected women, is this? Are they Katie Britt or are 529 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: they Marshall Blackburn? Are they give us a good example 530 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: of who they are or who they look up to? 531 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 3: Well? 532 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 4: I talked about Nancy Mace in the book Anna Paulina 533 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 4: Luna in the book these are some women, especially for 534 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 4: the women who call themselves feminists. You know, both of 535 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 4: those representatives have tried to rearticulate what it means to 536 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 4: be a feminist and be a conservative feminist. And that's 537 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 4: something that I've also been seeing in the research is 538 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 4: that some women would say, you know, you can be 539 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 4: a conservative and a feminist and I have a different 540 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 4: definition of it and actually aligning maga politics with feminism. 541 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 4: So those two representatives, I think, really do that brilliantly. 542 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: Another role model is I mean Nancy Mace is a 543 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: good example though, of someone who who absolutely claimed out. 544 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, she has I mean a lot of the women, 545 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 4: a lot of the Trump cap and it women have flamed. 546 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 4: I mean, Pam Bondi is another one. So I mean 547 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 4: that's a whole other topic. 548 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: If you pull this out, this crew, they have a 549 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: lot of trouble existing like they may not have a 550 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: lot of trouble existing on them, you know, as a 551 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: like law student, but if you try to be that person. 552 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: But probably the best example of it is just as Amy. 553 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's basically just been an abortion. Being able 554 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: to get rid of abortion has been her central you know, 555 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: like she would say, But ultimately when you hear her argue, 556 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: I mean, she may vote the way that the Republicans 557 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: want her to vote, but she's not. She's had a 558 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: lot of trouble making those I mean, it's been a 559 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: lot of compromises. 560 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean she's a major role model for younger women. 561 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 4: They see her as having it all because she has 562 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 4: the six kids and this esteemed career and is married, 563 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 4: and so that is an example of who they aspire 564 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 4: to be. 565 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: Where do you see them going now? I mean, what 566 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: do you think the sort of future is for them? 567 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: Because they're basically JD. Vans's people, right, Yeah, I. 568 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 3: Mean I think they're going to outlive Trump. 569 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 4: I think that the Maga women, if we want to 570 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 4: call them that, are going to stick around beyond Trump. 571 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 4: I think Trump is almost ancillary to their aims at 572 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 4: this point. They want to outlive They want the movement, 573 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 4: the Maga movement, to outlive Trump, and they have aims 574 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 4: for that. And I think when we look at the 575 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 4: younger women, they have these political careers that they're aspiring 576 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 4: to and they have the training I mean, look at 577 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 4: the women leadership trainings that go on with Turning Point 578 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 4: USA or Young Women for America. 579 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 3: They're being trained to be conservative leaders. 580 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: What kind of pushback do they get in their real lives? 581 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: Like do the men to the conservative men? Because remember 582 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: the conservative men are being pushed to be Andrew Tate? 583 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: So is there a room there for a feminist wife? 584 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 3: That's a real sticking point. 585 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 4: And that's what some of the younger gen Z women 586 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 4: told me is that some of the men they met 587 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 4: at Liberty didn't want this politically ambitious woman to be 588 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 4: a wife. 589 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 3: You know. 590 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 4: So I think they're gonna definitely come against the rub 591 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 4: I mean this, They're the first generation to be very 592 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 4: conservative espousing some tenets of liberal feminism and have all 593 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 4: these opportunities available to them. And how they manage all 594 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 4: of that together with their sort of ideals of marriage 595 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 4: and motherhood is going to be remains to be seen. 596 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: Do you think jd Vance has these voters basically like 597 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: there's no way Marco gets them. 598 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 3: I don't know. 599 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 4: I'm not convinced by that, to be honest, I'm not 600 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 4: sure that Jadie Vance is a shoe in. 601 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 3: I don't think he has the sort of charisma. 602 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: And that's the understatement of. 603 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:40,959 Speaker 3: The year personality. 604 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 4: Let's say that women really liked about Trump, I mean 605 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 4: they like that he's super strong and that he was authoritative, 606 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 4: and that he was a businessman, and none of those 607 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 4: traits are really associated with Jadie Vance. 608 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: I would love you to try to explain to us 609 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: why you think this group will be important in the 610 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: next couple of years. Like, obviously they're training there in 611 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: college or in grad school, they're at Liberty University. But 612 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: what you think they'll be doing, you know, like school boards, 613 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: et cetera, Like what they're playing, I mean, do they 614 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: have a sort of heritage aligned plan, et cetera. 615 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 4: I think we're going to see more and more women 616 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 4: at the upper levels of the Conservative Party. I think 617 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 4: we're going to see from the school boards, the local level, 618 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 4: to the national level, to the law schools. I think 619 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 4: we're going to see more and more women. They're being 620 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 4: encouraged to be there. They borrow tenants of liberal feminism 621 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 4: that they can have it all too, that women can 622 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 4: be empowered, And I honestly think it's really good marketing 623 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 4: for the MAGA movement to have women front and center 624 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 4: and it really allows them to at least rhetorically counteract 625 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 4: this argument that they're a sexist movement. 626 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: Do you think so, we talked about the dating, but 627 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: where else do you think these women find that it 628 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: is in fact a sexist movement. 629 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 4: Some of the women I interviewed that ran for office, 630 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 4: and I'm talking about lieutenant governor, mayor of their town, 631 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 4: they experienced sexism within the party, and they were reluctant 632 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 4: to admit it, but when I asked about it, they 633 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 4: did acknowledge that kind of sexism that happened, casual sexism 634 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 4: that happened behind closed force. 635 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: I mean, do you see any of these women like 636 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: threating the needle on being like, I'm a feminist, maybe 637 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: this party is not for me, or now, no. 638 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: I don't. 639 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 4: And I think a really good example of this are 640 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 4: the black Conservative women because they admitted to me, you know, 641 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 4: there's not a lot of women like me in the 642 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 4: party that they wouldn't call it racism, but some of 643 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 4: their experiences with political organizing were clearly racist experiences, right. 644 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 3: And yet they still. 645 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 4: Align with the major tenants of the movement. They still 646 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 4: are given very prominent places with speaking arrangements and organizing 647 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 4: and so they make allowances. 648 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: What about Latino voters. 649 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 4: This was one of the big surprises of my research 650 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 4: that there were so many Latina women at these rallies 651 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 4: that I went to. And we saw this when we 652 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 4: looked at the results from the twenty twenty four election, 653 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 4: is that Trump made major games not just with Latino men, 654 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 4: which has been talked about a lot, but Latino women. 655 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 4: And really they were enveloped in the Maga movement by 656 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 4: being mothers and that was the key sort of door 657 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 4: on which their engagement hinged. 658 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 3: You know, they were part of these mother. 659 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 4: Movements, these mama bear movements that were we want to 660 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 4: protect children, we care about our children, were Christian mothers 661 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 4: and they could identify with that and that's what brought 662 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 4: them into the organizing. 663 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: What does that mean because they're anti choice or the 664 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: school thing during COVID, what is it? 665 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: Yes, it started with the school thing. 666 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 4: It started with mask mandates and vaccines and social distancing, 667 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 4: and then it. 668 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 3: Has now really coalesced. 669 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 4: Anti trans anything to do with anti trans, antigender and 670 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 4: sexual diversity, anything to do with that, books in the 671 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 4: school curriculum, sex education inclusion laws that we've had here 672 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 4: in California about teachers not having to tell the parents 673 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 4: about children changing their pronouns. 674 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 3: That's really become the focus point now and. 675 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 4: It's been interesting to kind of see that evolution from 676 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 4: twenty to twenty on which issues they organized around as 677 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 4: mothers protecting their children. So the same rhetoric is being energized, 678 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 4: it's just a different issue now and it's this seems 679 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 4: to have the staying power. 680 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: So the idea here is that if other kids are 681 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: trans in your kid's class, you could catch it or what. 682 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely there's a level of believing, a sense of 683 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 4: like contagion and kids are going to do what other 684 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 4: kids are doing. You know that narrative of the teachers 685 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 4: are indoctrinating the kids or the books are indoctrinating the kids. 686 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 4: That's another level of it. I remember talking to two 687 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 4: women in a bathroom at a at a right wing gala, 688 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 4: and one of them was saying, so did the girl 689 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 4: become a lesbian because her classmate did, And the other 690 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 4: mom was trying to explain to her how it happened. 691 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 4: And that kind of revealed to me what the thinking 692 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 4: is around kids or youth being exposed to gender and 693 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 4: sexual diversity. 694 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: They don't have any problem with the phones or the 695 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: internet or technology. It's just the box. 696 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 4: Huh, well, I mean you raise a good point. I 697 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 4: mean I think that's part of it as well. But 698 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 4: that's something they feel they can control. 699 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: Oh they can control the technology, yeah, how. 700 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 4: They have really strict limits. Who knows what they're doing, 701 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 4: but they outside of the home. I want to make 702 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 4: sure the books, what is being taught in the classroom, 703 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 4: and this sense of like if my kids somehow got 704 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 4: caught or got indoctrinated into becoming trans, I want to 705 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 4: know about it. 706 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: I don't want the teacher to keep it from me. 707 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: So so so so stupid. You know, you think this 708 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: will be like the core of the GOP going forward. 709 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 3: I seven twenty twenty four. I remember a lot of 710 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 3: women saying to me it was going to be the 711 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 3: election the year of the kids, which was. 712 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 4: You know translation for anti trans I don't know how 713 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 4: much staying power the issue is going to have. It 714 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 4: is still going to be powering things in two more years. 715 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 4: I mean, immigration was also a major issue talking to 716 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 4: women ahead of twenty twenty four, and that has had 717 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 4: staying power since twenty sixteen. That's been a top issue 718 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 4: for women over nine years of research is immigration and 719 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 4: the immigrant. 720 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: But and it seems to have no impact whether or 721 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: not you have no immigrants. It's just the anxiety about it. 722 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely. And it also that the immigrant that they're 723 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 4: worried about changes. So in twenty sixteen, the immigrant that 724 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 4: women told me they were worried about was Muslims coming 725 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 4: into the country. Right in twenty twenty and twenty twenty 726 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 4: four is all about the southern border Latin Americans. So 727 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 4: it's also interesting to track kind of how the threat, 728 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 4: the idea of the threat changes, even though the same 729 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 4: sort of language of invasion stays the same. So I 730 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 4: don't know how attached it is to material realities. 731 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: Where are they getting this fox News? I mean, do 732 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: you feel like you can tell exactly where this is 733 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: coming from. 734 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 4: Surprisingly, it's not Fox News, it's social media influencers. So 735 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 4: I met women, younger women especially, who said they got 736 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 4: all their news from an. 737 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: Influencer Candace Owens, not even candoth Owens. 738 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 4: Sometimes it would be a peer, it would be a 739 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 4: fellow conservative. 740 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 3: Student that they would get their news from. 741 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: Oh, a micro influencer. 742 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 4: I mean the main ones on the Macro Level, Canda Owens, Ali, 743 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 4: beths Ducky, Alex Clark. 744 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 3: Those are the ones they're looking to. 745 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: Oh, We're gonna die. 746 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 3: Thank you, Katie. Great to be with you. 747 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 748 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 749 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 750 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 751 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.