1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie. I'm welcome to stuff I never 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: told you production of iHeartRadio. And today, after our wonderful 3 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: interview with doctor Baith about trans athletes, it was just 4 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: a wonderful thing. Please go listen to that episode if 5 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: you haven't already. I thought we would bring back an 6 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: episode we did about women coaches and referees because when 7 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: we did that episode, we talked about the importance of 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: supportive coaches, not necessarily referees, but I would say yes also, 9 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: and so just to add to that to that conversation. 10 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: Also just a note, we had a really funny discussion 11 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: off mic about heated rivalry that might happen she comes back. 12 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: I was suggesting it and was excited. 13 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I'm into it. I'm so into it. 14 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is 15 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: Sanny and Samantha all of some stuff I've never told 16 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: you protection of iHeart Radio, and welcome to a long 17 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: awaited episode that we're doing on women referees and coaches. 18 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: Brief content warning for sexist language. Samantha, when you look 19 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: back in your experience, did you see or or have 20 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: more male coaches or female coaches? 21 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: Well, so the only sports I really participated in was cheerleading, 22 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: so for that, I you know, I only had women 23 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: coaches for those. But I will say when I was 24 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 2: watching my friends who competed in tennis and in cross country, 25 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 2: it was all men. Now that I'm thinking about it, 26 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: the more and more that the few and even for 27 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 2: like women's basketball, girls basketball, we had a whole issue 28 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: with inappropriate behavior from our coach, who was beloved. But 29 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: then like, yeah, it's easily like those beloved coaches are 30 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 2: the ones like, yeah, okay, that makes sense, he's a 31 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 2: little too close to the students. But anyway, it was 32 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: a dude obviously as I say this, But yeah, I 33 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: think now that I'm thinking about it, even for the 34 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: girls teams or like mixed teams, it was all typically men, 35 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: and the ones that were highly regarded were always men. 36 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: Like even outside of like again a couple of cheerleading squads, Yeah, 37 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: what about you. 38 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think looking back, I did a couple of 39 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: sports that were more leaning towards girls, so like gymnastics 40 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: that was all women. But when I got into high school, 41 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: I was really insecure. Therefore I didn't compete in sports. 42 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: But so most of the coaches I saw when other 43 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: people were competing were men. There were a couple of outliers, 44 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,119 Speaker 1: and they were women who were very beloved. But also, yeah, 45 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: we had a lot of with those men coaches. There 46 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: were just rumors of them being kind of creepers, so 47 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: and it was just accepted. It was just like, yeah, yep, 48 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: that's how they are. But my school was also pretty small, 49 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: so was yours. Right, You're just very small. 50 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I was thinking about how many I think, 51 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: like we had one hundred. I think ours is bigger 52 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: than yours, So like one hundred and thirty people graduate 53 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: in my class. There was only one high school, I 54 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: believe in the entire county. 55 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I've seem to recall I had a ninety 56 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: one number of graduating people in my class, but I 57 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: don't know, I could be wrong. That's the number that 58 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: I've liked, it's been a while. That's the number that 59 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: stands out to me. But yeah, I just feel mostly 60 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: women coaches in my experience were like outliers and there 61 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: weren't really referees in my experience. This episode Listeners was 62 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: what I'll call a folly on my part because I 63 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: was like, surely this will be a simple one to 64 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: put together. It's it wasn't And in fact, I'm just 65 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: going to go ahead and put a disclaimer up here. 66 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: You could break down the history of coaches and referees 67 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: in pretty much every sport and it could be a 68 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: full episode. There has been a lot of search into it, 69 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: so today we are going to be talking about some 70 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: of the history, specifically in the realm of football slash 71 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: soccer and American football issues and potential solutions. This is 72 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: by no means comprehensive. I'm actually really impressed at how 73 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: many detailed sources that I found looking to this, but 74 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: a lot of it is recent, a lot of it 75 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: is very very soon, of course, yes, and we're going 76 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: to talk about that soon because a lot of the 77 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: first I was like, oh really last year yep, yeah, yep. 78 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: It sucks, It does suck, and it does have it's important. 79 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: It is important. So to start, I tried to find 80 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: like a general definition of a coach and referee. People 81 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: don't really seem to agree on even that, So basically 82 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: I would say coach is someone who guy and supports athletes, 83 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: usually on a team. There are no consistent guidelines or 84 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: requirements though it often involves getting a coaching and teaching 85 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: license and perhaps other credentials that can look very differently 86 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: depending on the sport, depending on where you are. Referees, 87 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: this was even less less regulated from what I could find. 88 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: Please if anyone is a coach a referee professionally or not, 89 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: write in. But yes, they're basically monitoring the game, watching 90 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: for any like breaking of rules or something like that. 91 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: And to become one it seemed like it was sort 92 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: of all over the place based on sport. But basically 93 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: you have to pass a rules exam and then you 94 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: sort of work your way up from the bottom. That's 95 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: what it sounded like. Then I discovered I knew about this, 96 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: but I don't know why I've never thought about it. 97 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: The people who watched the like videos. Yeah, yeah, so 98 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: that's a whole separate thing we're gonna have to come 99 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: back to because women are just breaking grounds and that 100 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: as well. 101 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: Right, we're not even talking about commentators and how much 102 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: they miss they make, Like Tom Brady just got millions 103 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: of dollars of a contract to work with Fox Sports. 104 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: So yeah, the last talk about it's a whole different world. 105 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: But of course, all of this means all of this 106 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: is conversations about how much money and can be made 107 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: in this industry and who was given to But you know, again, 108 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: we'll come back to that later. But or will you 109 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: do all of that? Let's talk about a little bit, 110 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: a little bit of stance, stance, a little bit of stance. 111 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: Handy or a couple you know, quick ones. 112 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: So when it comes to the US, as the twenty 113 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: twenty two about thirty percent of high school varsity coaches 114 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: were women compared to a seventy percent of men, which 115 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: is more than I thought it would be, to be 116 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: very honest, especially in high schools, because they're pretty competitive. 117 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: High school is a day are interesting. 118 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 2: Level making come on Friday night lights. They made hit 119 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: shows based on coaching and teams in high schools. But whatever, 120 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: And according to the conversation quote, today men occupy nearly 121 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: seventy five percent of all head coaching positions in collegiate athletics, 122 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: again lower than I thought. I would have thought it 123 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: was ninety percent. But you know, the BBC recently reported 124 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: that the number of women's referees in English football had 125 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: increased by seventy two percent as of twenty sixteen, and 126 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: that was in twenty twenty. 127 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: Huh really yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about that 128 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: in a second. But I do want to clarify the 129 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: English football is important because it was specifically about in England. 130 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 2: England, yes, which is I haven't watched a lot of 131 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: English football soccer, I'm assuming recently and I've never but 132 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: I've yet to see a woman being a referee, so 133 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: that's interesting. 134 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: Oh it's pretty recent. So okay, well's talk about Okay, 135 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: let's go, Yes, But I did want to put in 136 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: here before we get into it, a quick note about 137 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: why it matters, because I think one thing that can't 138 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: be quite captured in a definition is the power and 139 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: impact of a good coach or a good referee, both 140 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: in terms of fostering athletes and but in seeing that 141 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: like oh I belong, Having women in these positions normalizes 142 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: women's participation. It says like women are supposed to be here. 143 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: It also allows for athletes to grow once they stop competing, 144 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: and there's so much talent that is getting lost because 145 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: these pathways don't really exist right now for women, or 146 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: if they do, they're so crowded that women are getting 147 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: pushed out. So it is important for bullied out, yeah, 148 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: or bullied out. So yes, as we go into we're 149 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: mostly going to talk about soccer football and American football. 150 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: But yes, please forgive us because the history section is 151 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: a bit cobbled together because sports history looks different all 152 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: around the world, and it looks different in different sports. 153 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: Also worth noting, in multiple cases, at some point or another, 154 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: women were prohibited from competing officially in sports, which is 155 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: pretty much how people become professional coaches and referees. So 156 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of catching up to do in that sense. Yes, okay, 157 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: but let us look at soccer slash football. While soccer 158 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: football has a long history of being popular, patriarchal systems 159 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: have often sought to keep women out, both as players 160 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: and in any leadership or officiate positions. For instance, women 161 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: were bands from playing on official Football League pitches in 162 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one. Their official reason was that it was 163 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: dangerous for women. We've talked about this before. She can't 164 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: sweat what about our uter is going to fall out, 165 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: It's going to fall out. These are real things. The 166 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: unofficial reason was that they didn't want women to threaten 167 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: a quote men's sports. 168 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 2: However, women's soccer has really taken off in recent years 169 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: with a huge explosion of popularity, Attendance records have been broken, 170 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: as have viewership records, and the skills on display are 171 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: just as astounding. Still, when it comes to women coaching 172 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: this sport, we're still lagging behind. Only one third of 173 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: Women's Super League coaches have a woman manager. National Women's 174 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: Soccer League or NWSL has fourteen clubs and only five 175 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: are led by women. 176 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: Austria's Edith Klinger is believed to be the first woman 177 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: to referee both men and women's games. In nineteen thirty five. However, 178 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: FIFA officially recognized Turkey's Tressan Arda as the world's first 179 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: football woman referee. She refereed her first match in nineteen 180 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: sixty eight after years of training. Although FIFA is very 181 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: like it has to be a FIFA event, so that 182 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: makes sense to me, right. Betty Ellis was the first 183 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: woman to officiate a professional US soccer game in nineteen 184 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: eighty one, and then in nineteen ninety one we saw 185 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: the first all women team to officiate a FIFA tournament. Earlier, 186 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: Claudia Vasconcelos became the first woman to referee an official 187 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: FIFA event at the first Women's World Cup. So the 188 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: reason this kind of came out later because FIFA again 189 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: wasn't sure if it was an official event, like they 190 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: were like Women's World Cup. But then when they later 191 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: were like, okay, it was an official event, then it 192 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: was like she kind of retroactively got the recognition. Just 193 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: a handful of years later we got the first woman 194 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: to be designated as the first official FIFA accredited referee. 195 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: So one woman who recently has been the source of 196 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: a lot of coverage as Emma Hayes, who, after coaching 197 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: the team and Chelsea, went on to coach the US 198 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 2: women's national team and led them to gold. She has 199 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: been very vocal about the lack of women coaches and 200 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: all the reasons she thinks that is things like cost 201 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: and the gender wage gap, lack of education and attention, 202 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: and lack of mentors, which kind of we talked about 203 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: with the Olympics. 204 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: Yes, in twenty twenty, in part because of COVID, the 205 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: comic ball Ceonmebol Copo Libertatorrees, the highest level of competition 206 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: in South American club football, was the first game to 207 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: feature only women referees. The video match officials were also women, 208 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: meaning the entirety of the officiating team was composed of women, 209 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: and I will say it's kind of unfortunate, but a 210 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: lot of this did happen during COVID because men were 211 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: getting COVID, so it was sort of like whoever could 212 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: step up, and these women were definitely qualified. Do not 213 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: get me wrong, but that's it was like all the 214 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: men were sick. In twenty twenty two, Stephanie Frappar became 215 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: the first woman to officiate a men's World Cup game. 216 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: She also had like a bunch of other first She 217 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: had two women assistants too at this time, nus At 218 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: Back of Brazil and Karen Diaz Medina of Mexico. And yeah, 219 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: there are still first happening. In twenty twenty three, the 220 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: first woman was appointed to coach a professional British football team. 221 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: I saw something today because of course, when you're researching 222 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: something like this, you start getting news update all the 223 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: time right about other first that are happening. So it's 224 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: one of those things where I'm kind of like, I'm happy, 225 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: but I'm shocked that I'm like, oh, really this is yeah. 226 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty four, finally I guess, yeah, yeah, and 227 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: that is the briefest of overview of women coaches and 228 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: referees in soccer. Let us look at American football, so 229 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: this was interesting to me. American football, the rules and 230 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: sport were formalized in the eighteen seventies, and one of 231 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: the main stated goals of this sport was to reinforce 232 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: and shore up what was believed to be fading manliness 233 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: in white and glosed Saxon men due to increased immigration 234 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: and the closed frontier. But even in these early days, 235 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: women were present as coaches. The so called father of football, 236 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: Walter Camp, often missed practices and his wife, Alice would 237 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: take his place. She took these like really intense notes. 238 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: She made play suggestions. The team, who were undefeated in 239 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty eight, considered her a coach on the same 240 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: level as her husband. At reunion celebration twenty five years later, 241 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: both she and her husband were labeled head coaches. So 242 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: women weren't there. Whether they were getting the credit necessarily 243 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: different story, but they were there, and she was not 244 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: the only one. Prior to World War One, a roster 245 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: of American women coach men's football teams from the Washington Post, 246 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:50,479 Speaker 1: names like Lillian Merrill, Annie Bragdon, Estelle Sherwin, Carrie Brookhart, 247 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: and Cosette Brannon were all there. Two of them, Bragdon 248 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: and Burkhart boasted undefeated seasons at the time. One of 249 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: the main aspects of this sport was its violence. It 250 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: was something that journals wrote about, including injuries and even death. 251 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: So these women coaching such a violent sport broke accepted 252 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: Western gender stereotypes in multiple ways. Generally, they coached school 253 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: age teams. Women did pretty much anything above that. In 254 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: the rare case it happened was usually because of lack 255 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: of funding to pay for a mail coach or something 256 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: something like that, a second choice like women, that's the 257 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: second choice. Women were still viewed as largely spectators to 258 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: the men, being madly and somewhat of a calming influence 259 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: in the audience. Yeah, this actually was the thing in 260 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: a lot of Western countries, regardless of sports, as were sexist, racist, 261 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: ablest and homophobic guidelines designed to keep margin people out 262 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: are harassing them if they somehow managed to participate. 263 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: Right, So that shifted a bit during World War One 264 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 2: when men went away to fight the war and women 265 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: stepped up into their positions as coaches. A story as 266 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 2: old as time in high schools and college positions. The 267 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: same thing happened during World War Two, and some of 268 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: these coaches won titles. Once the men returned from the war, 269 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 2: many of the women were forced out, though some remained 270 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: coaching for many more years. 271 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: Go back to the leg of their own. 272 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 2: That's that whole scenario. 273 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh huh. Some reporters from the 274 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: time describe these women coaches as radical and strange. Their 275 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: husbands were often pointedly mentioned as if to reassure folks 276 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: that they are still straight women in the domestic sphere, 277 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: or even crediting their husbands with the women's knowledge and talent. Yeah, 278 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: when Pauline Foster's team beat a team coach by a man, 279 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: it was reported on with almost amusement, like he'll never 280 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: live down this embarrassment, as opposed to crediting her talent, 281 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: which they often did attribute to her husband. And of course, 282 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: the physical appearances of the women coaches was the point 283 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: of attention to in a way that it wasn't for men. 284 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: Descriptions like beautiful, attractive, and buxom blonde were pretty standard. 285 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 2: That word buxhom that you gets me every time. 286 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, after a bit of a dead period for women 287 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: American football coaches. Nineteen seventy two's Title nine put in 288 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: place rules to foster quality in women's sports in education settings, 289 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: but this mostly pertained to athletes and not coaches or referees. 290 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: Women coaches were still met with suspicion and derision. Some 291 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: universities and institutions even had in place rules that prohibited 292 00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: women from holding these positions, even assistant coaching position. Before 293 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: Title nine, ninety percent of intercollegiate women's teams were coached 294 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: by women, largely unpaid. However, after Title nine there was 295 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: a huge growth in teams and men started to take 296 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: these roles thanks to biases and also, yeah, the roles 297 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: were now paid, so like now men were like, oh, yeah, 298 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: I'll take that job. In twenty fourteen, women accounted for 299 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: only forty three percent of these physicians. So basically, yeah, 300 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: now women's teams were getting money, they were getting resources, 301 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: and suddenly men sought as a legitimate career path to 302 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: coach these teams. Of course, yep I did find some 303 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: arguments that first and second wave feminism were part to 304 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: blame for the unintended consequences of the lower number of 305 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: women coaches and refs, and the argument goes that these 306 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: movements wanted women's sports under women's spheres, all women's clubs, 307 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: perhaps specific rules. It was interesting. I was like, I guess, 308 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. It was an interesting argument. Yes, a 309 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: few women were able to break through, including Carol White, 310 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: who worked with Kickers at my alma mater, Georgia Tech 311 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: as a graduate assistant in nineteen eighty six. Some say 312 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: this makes her the first woman to coach in an 313 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: NCAA Division One football tournament. Oh, people do like to 314 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: argue about all this stuff, though, was probably not a surprise. 315 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: Another thing people argue about when Natalie Randolph started coaching 316 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: a men's high school football team in twenty ten. She 317 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: was widely celebrated as the first women coach of a 318 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: men's high school team. But if you've been listening to 319 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: the history section, others will say, no, way, that can't 320 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: be true. I think it's more of a in our 321 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: recent times kind of thing. Yeah. In twenty twenty, there 322 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: were a lot of headlines about history being made around 323 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: women reps and coaches in NFL football. That season, there 324 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: were twelve women coaches working. It was the first Super 325 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: Bowl to feature two women coaches, and Sarah Thomas became 326 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: the first woman referee to officiate a Super Bowl game. 327 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: She also previously had broken other first, including becoming the 328 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: first full time woman referee for the NFL. And yeah, 329 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: the case of American football is interesting because women don't 330 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: play it professionally, so there's not a pipeline of player 331 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: to coach, right, Yeah, yep. That's also could be broken 332 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: down into a much bigger episode because there's still a 333 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: lot of first happening there. But let us talk about 334 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: some of the issues here that we found when researching 335 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: this one. No surprise her asspment. One of the biggest 336 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: barriers women have reported in these positions is sexism and 337 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 1: harassment from players, spectators, and other officials. Here are some 338 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: examples from Forbes quote. If women want equal rights, then 339 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: they need to learn how to referee. And from an 340 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: amateur football coach, she should not be here. I know 341 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: that sounds sexist, but I am sexist and if you 342 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: start bringing in women, you have big problems. A senior 343 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: vice president of the Football Association once said, women's place 344 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: is in the kitchen and not on a football field. 345 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: I love it. 346 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: That's their go to is always the kitchen always. 347 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: Yes, oh that is me. We're going to talk about 348 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: this in a minute. But that comes up all the time. 349 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: That go back to the kitchen argument, right every time. 350 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: Here's another quote from a referee named Anne, things like 351 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: don't you know the supermarket is open? You should be 352 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: there doing the shopping, or why aren't you at home 353 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 2: cooking your husband's mill? Or you should be pregnant at 354 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: the kitchen sink. Or the worst one was I hope 355 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: your children die of cancer. That was from a spectator. 356 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: I remember one game, an FA cup round, and I 357 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: walked off and my daughter came running over to where 358 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: the tunnel area was and she said, Mommy, what's the dyke. 359 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: She was only about ten or eleven at the time. 360 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 2: And I said, why, honey, and she said, because the 361 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: man over there, he's been calling you one the whole game. 362 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: Oh yikes. Many women in these positions have reported they 363 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: are quote aware of their token status and the damage 364 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: that does to their mental health. There have been multiple 365 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: instances of verbal and physical abuse and threats in these fields. 366 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: The verbal sexist abuse is the most observed. Many did 367 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: say the abuse only became sexist when people disagreed with 368 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: a call right in the case of a referee right, 369 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: and one study, every single woman referee interviewed reported having 370 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: heard get back in the kitchen. So yes, that is 371 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: their go to, that is their number one. Actually it's 372 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: like really depressing, but it's kind of a funny story 373 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: because in one of the people from the study confronted 374 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: one of the men who said it, and he came 375 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: down and he was so contrite and he's like, I 376 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: don't know why I said it. I'm so sorry. She 377 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: was like, don't ever do that again and get out 378 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: of here. 379 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 2: What the hell? 380 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: Oh that's funny, Yeah, yeah, but it can get a 381 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: lot darker. One person described basically threats of rape as 382 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: an assistant referee, she was sixteen and she almost dropped 383 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: out because of this experience. And the article was detailing 384 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: the basically all of the fallout and damage of things 385 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: like this and the loss of talent and women participating 386 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: if this is what is normal as and accepted, because yeah, 387 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: perhaps even more upsetting in a way. Some women did 388 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: not recognize verbal sexist abuse, suggesting it's been so normal 389 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: as they were just like, oh, I didn't think about it, 390 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: which is sad. Others have reported not having places to 391 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: change and when asking about it, management giving them like 392 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: a storage cupboard or something, so that's not great. Also, 393 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: just being dismissed or not respected. A lot of people 394 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: reported that referees always assuming that the man is the 395 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: head coach. One woman in one of these surveys said, 396 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: when you make a mistake, it's because you're a woman. 397 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: And yet there is sort of this other side of 398 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: it of being labeled as not feminine enough, right, so, like, 399 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: you made that mistake because you're a woman, but you're not, 400 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: you're not feminine, Assumptions that they don't know the rules. 401 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: There have been multi instances of male commentators, like we 402 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: talked about our Olympics episodes, basically saying she's a woman, 403 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: she doesn't know what she's doing, and these are like 404 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: the commentators you're listening to during the game, right yeah. 405 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: Uh. 406 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: Stereotypes around physical and mental ability and inability to handle pressure, 407 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: A lot of people reported. 408 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: Right, so, here's a quote that sums it up pretty well. 409 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 2: The studies findings demonstrate that men's gendered identities afford them 410 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 2: automatic and unquestioned access to the social dynamics of the coach. 411 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 2: Education system. Women, on the other hand, have to earn 412 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,199 Speaker 2: this through their performance of appropriate levels of football knowledge 413 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: and skill, and these expectations often go far beyond the 414 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: level of performance required by men to gain the same credibility. 415 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: Yes, and just as always, there's discrimination around having children 416 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: that could get pregnant. I read one that was basically 417 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: a mail interviewer was like, Oh, you don't want this job. 418 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: You'll have to work on the weekends, You'll have kids. 419 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: You got to take care of the kids. Okay, And 420 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: here's something This is kind of more complicated. I'll talk 421 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: about why in a second, but examples show women coaches 422 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: are more likely to get fired for similar behaviors. Male 423 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: coaches exhibit and are lauded for they are. Women coaches 424 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: are less likely to be renewed despite a track record 425 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: for success. So, for instance, despite helping secure multiple national 426 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: championships for the University of Minnesota, Duluth women's hockey head 427 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: coach Shannon Miller's contract was not renewed in twenty fourteen. 428 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: She didn't have any violations or anything, and she sued 429 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,239 Speaker 1: for gender discrimination, a suit she ended up winning and 430 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: was awarded three million dollars. 431 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: Gotta get that money, got. 432 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: Get that money. In a lot of instances where women 433 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: coaches are fired for abuse, they are never rehired, or 434 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: if they are not at the same level. The same 435 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: is not true for men. They don't usually get fired, 436 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: and if they do, they get rehired at an equal 437 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: or even better position. So I'm not advocating for this abuse, 438 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: but the punishment should be equal. And that is not 439 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: what we're seeing. Nope, it's not what we're seeing at all. 440 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: There are a lot of toxic, old gender stereotypes here 441 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: that basically boil down to traditionally masculine coded traits are better, 442 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: but when a woman displays those traits, she is judged 443 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: far more harshly. So a lot of the stuff we're 444 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: talking about here is like a coach yelling at you, 445 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: and it can be very abusive and has been, but 446 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: it's seen as like when men do that, oh yeah, 447 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: he's talking up his team. But when a woman doesn't say, 448 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: oh look at this, true, she's got to be she's 449 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: got to go again. I don't I'm not condoning abuse. 450 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: I don't think it's right, but just saying here's a 451 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: quote from the conversation. Another problem is that female college 452 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: athletes seem to value coaches who act in dominant, sometimes 453 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: authoritarian ways. When female athletes are asked what they want 454 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: to coach, they'll say they want someone who's commanding, confident, assertive, 455 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: and knowledgeable. At the same time, female athletes consider ideal 456 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: female coaches to be caring, supportive, and nurturing, but this 457 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: contradicts what they value in a coach. Female coaches ultimately 458 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: find themselves in a double bind. They're damned if they 459 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: act like men, and damned if they don't. Yep. Another issue, 460 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: of course, equal pay. Many women coaches and referees are 461 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: not getting paid what they're worth, not even close. There's 462 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: also a persistent idea that there's more respect to be 463 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: had coaching men's teams, which I found in some articles 464 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: even when I was looking into this. There's a lack 465 00:30:53,760 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: of standards and professionalization in these fields. There's unequal resources 466 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: usually given towards women athletes and women coaches and women referees. 467 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: All of that stuff. Nepotism and name recognition is a problem. 468 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: Like gatekeeping is a problem here, the risk of retaliation 469 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: if you report something. There's been several cases of that 470 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: of women coaches or referees reporting wrongdoing and being retaliated against, 471 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: and often they might be told, you know, just deal with. 472 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: It, right so from sagebub quote. Among other inequities, women 473 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 2: coaches have lower salaries, fewer opportunities, poorer working conditions and relationships, 474 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: and more conflicts between coaching and family commitments than their 475 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: male counterparts due to lack of organizational policies and cultural norms. 476 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: The underrepresentation of women coaches is associated with power relations 477 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: in sports, which is considered as a male dominated social 478 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 2: context where men occupy dominant social roles over women monic masculinity. Still, 479 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: coaching is heavily associated with male characteristics, and women are 480 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: considered invaders when holding positions of power. 481 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: Yes, right, And as always, there are intersexual issues here 482 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: to coaches of color, black coaches, queer coaches all have 483 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: faced unique issues of backclash and discrimination. Marginalized people have 484 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: increased obstacles to entry. You have to deal with a 485 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: whole host of issues that many of their counterparts don't. 486 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: And there has been some recent stuff looking into this, 487 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: but again a lot of this is pretty recent, and 488 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: a lot of these first even in these specific intersexual areas, 489 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: are very very recent. So a lot more to be done. 490 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: And speaking of people are looking into this because all 491 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: of this that we've been talking about as a negative 492 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: impact on women's mental health, women in sport in general, 493 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: I would say sport in general, just women's participation. So 494 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: a couple of things that organizing bodies and people involved 495 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: are looking into our new regulations, like creating minimum standards 496 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: of women, marginalized folks in these positions, bringing more women 497 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: to the table when making these regulations in the first place, 498 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: because that has not happened really requiring marginalized people are 499 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: interviewed for leadership positions. Some have reported organizations outright mocking 500 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: or ignoring this though, so yep, organizations fostering mentoring and training. 501 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: So we talked about this pretty recently, so it has 502 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: been something that's been tried, but it's hard to track. 503 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: It's hard to like quantify I guess the benefits of this, 504 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: but many have said who have participated in it, that 505 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: this helps women feel seen and heard and often allows 506 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: for more open conversation, like maybe they able to talk 507 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: to a mentor who is a woman as opposed to 508 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: a man, because they don't feel like they can talk 509 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: to men about something compiling more research, getting more research 510 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: so that we can have more educated regulations that we 511 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: can put in place. And as yeah, as we've said recently, 512 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: as more women athletes enter the playing fields, more of 513 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: them become coaches and referees and that continues. So that's good, 514 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: like we are seeing growth, but there's still all of 515 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: these issues to deal with and there's still so much 516 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: further to go, right, yeah, way too much. Yeah, yes, 517 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: But to everyone who's doing that work, thank you so much. Honestly, 518 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: Like the power of a good coach and a good 519 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: referee that can really stick with you, especially as a 520 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: kid and you're like, oh yes, like can really make 521 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: you want to keep going, or even if it's not 522 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: in the same sport, it can just be something that's 523 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: really inspiring. So yes, listeners, if you are involved in 524 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: either coaching or refereeing, or sports in general, any of this, 525 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: please let us know. You can write to us at 526 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: Stephania Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us 527 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and 528 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff Will Never Told You for USO on YouTube. 529 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: We have a tea puppy store and we have a 530 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks 531 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, 532 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. 533 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: Thank you. 534 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening stuff I never told you. 535 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: Propection of my heart idio for more podcast or my 536 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. 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