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Speaker 1: Hey, listeners, I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of tenfold More

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Speaker 1: Wicked and Buried Bones. Let me tell you about my

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Speaker 1: new project. It's an audiobook original called The Ghost Club.

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Speaker 1: The Ghost Club is about an exclusive dinner club started

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Speaker 1: in the late eighteen hundreds. Some of the world's most

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Speaker 1: important people gathered to tell real life ghost stories. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about Charles Dickens, William Yates, Arthur Conan Doyle, and

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Speaker 1: Harry Houdini. They investigated spiritual encounters, life after death, and

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Speaker 1: fraudulent mediums. The chairman of the Ghost Club was Harry Price,

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Speaker 1: the world's most successful ghost hunter. His most well known

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Speaker 1: case was the Harrowing year he spent living in England's

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Speaker 1: Borly Rectory. Did Harry Price uncover real ghosts or did

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Speaker 1: he fake evidence of spirits or both? Listen as I

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Speaker 1: tell you about the legends of the Ghost Club and

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Speaker 1: the Borly Rectory, as well as my own experiences as

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Speaker 1: a kid. The Ghost Club is available now wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your audio books. This story contains adult content and language.

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Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. Despite my better judgment, my twelve

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Speaker 1: year old daughter joined me on this trip to New Orleans.

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Speaker 1: I say that because she's not as interested in crime

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Speaker 1: history as I am. She scares really easily. She doesn't

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Speaker 1: like creepy things, and like my other kid, New Orleans

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Speaker 1: might not be the place for her, but we'll see.

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Speaker 1: We're on one of New orleans famous streetcars, writing the

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Speaker 1: Saint Charles streetcar line. It's just a few blocks from

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Speaker 1: Annie Crawford's former home on Chestnut Street. She rode the

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Speaker 1: streetcar back and forth to work in nineteen ten. This

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Speaker 1: seems like a fantastic way to travel, even if it's

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Speaker 1: a little slow moving. But historian Terrence Fitzmorris says that

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Speaker 1: when Annie Crawford wrote this line, streetcars were even more

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Speaker 1: inefficient and very troublesome.

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Speaker 2: Streetcars are iconic in New Orleans today, but in nineteen ten,

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Speaker 2: they were real pain. They weren't as pretty, they weren't

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Speaker 2: as well connected, and there were too many of them.

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Speaker 2: There is gas and electricity and telephone to have been

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Speaker 2: around for a long time in New Orleans. The average

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Speaker 2: citizen is seeing a good deal of progress, and they've

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Speaker 2: been introduced to a novelty that's coming in shortly and

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Speaker 2: to further make New Orleans more congested, and that is

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Speaker 2: the automobile. The streets are always congested. They were never

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Speaker 2: made for automobiles, and it's a serious concern for the

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Speaker 2: citizens of New Orleans.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like walking was the most efficient way to

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Speaker 1: travel throughout New Orleans in the early nineteen hundreds. The

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Speaker 1: Crawfords used some form of transportation to get to work,

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Speaker 1: the various methods available, but their church was just a

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Speaker 1: few blocks away, so they walked and Sunday Mass was

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Speaker 1: a highlight of their week. Saint Stephen's Catholic Church is incredible.

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Speaker 1: It was designed in a German Gothic style, complete with

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Speaker 1: imported stained glass. It's the second largest Catholic church in

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Speaker 1: the city. Its six sided spire is more than two

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Speaker 1: hundred feet high, and you could spot it from miles away.

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Speaker 1: Saint Stephen's is on Napoleon Avenue, less than two blocks

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Speaker 1: from Chestnut Street, where the Crawfords were, and for the family,

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Speaker 1: there were few things more important than mass. I asked

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Speaker 1: Terrence Fitzmorris about the Irish population in New Orleans at

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Speaker 1: the turn of the century. I wanted to get a

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Speaker 1: sense of the Crawford's community. How many Irish people are

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Speaker 1: we talking about in nineteen ten nineteen eleven in New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, the number of Irish actually from Ireland is

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Speaker 2: roughly about seventy five hundred, down from thirty thousand in

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Speaker 2: eighteen sixty, but their descendants Irish Americans are numerous. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the United States Census doesn't categorize you as an Irish American, right,

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Speaker 2: just that if you're Irish, or you're German or Italian

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Speaker 2: or Polish or Danish.

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Speaker 1: Women in Irish American families were encouraged to marry early.

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Speaker 1: If they weren't married, they remained with their parents, like

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Speaker 1: Annie Crawford and her sisters did. Some might marry into

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Speaker 1: their late teens or early twenties, but once a woman

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Speaker 1: passed her late twenties, the families might fear that she

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Speaker 1: would never find a husband. It would have been normal

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Speaker 1: in an Irish American family if the girls had been unmarried,

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Speaker 1: like Annie Crawford, to stay living in the house.

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Speaker 2: I assume yes, indeed it would have.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it would have been expected expected. Author Alan Gotro

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Speaker 1: says that Annie didn't seem preoccupied with marrying, even though

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Speaker 1: she had been labeled a certain derogatory term at age

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Speaker 1: twenty eight spinster. I hate that word, and I hate

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Speaker 1: old maid too. They were labels meant to shame women

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Speaker 1: who chose not to marry or chose not to settle.

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Speaker 1: It was also a sort of veiled threat. No man

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Speaker 1: wanted a middle aged woman, they would say. Many Irish

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Speaker 1: American families pressured their teenage daughters to find husbands, but

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Speaker 1: the Crawfords didn't seem to do that, at least not

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Speaker 1: with Annie.

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Speaker 3: She did not have any gentleman callers, but I don't

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Speaker 3: think she was concerned with that.

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Speaker 1: And yet Annie's sisters complained that she criticized their suitors

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Speaker 1: when they came knocking on the door. Maybe it was

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Speaker 1: out of jealousy because she had none of her own,

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Speaker 1: but I doubt it. I've been working to understand the

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Speaker 1: arc of her life for this story by examining her

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Speaker 1: actions throughout her whole life. I think she simply craved control,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't easy to control three young women and

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Speaker 1: two parents. This push and pull created a lot of

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Speaker 1: tension in the family. Annie wanted to regulate everyone.

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Speaker 2: She determined what her sisters and her aunt and everyone

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Speaker 2: else should do, and whether her sister should date or whatever.

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Speaker 2: So it was a very dysfunctional family.

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Speaker 1: Annie's niece in law, Cecil Leo, agrees. Even fifty years later,

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Speaker 1: Annie Crawford was still trying to manage everyone in her family.

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Speaker 1: When she lived with Cecil and Patrick, Annie focused only

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Speaker 1: on her nephew, not his sisters, and certainly not his wife.

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Speaker 4: She never looked at me, but she'd stare at Pat.

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Speaker 4: Didn't take her eyes off of him. And it was

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Speaker 4: like Mary and Kitty weren't even there either. It was

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Speaker 4: just like Pat was the only one there, and she

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Speaker 4: just stared at Pat. He certainly wasn't comfortable.

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Speaker 1: Annie Crawford always seemed to be in her own world,

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Speaker 1: and it made many people uncomfortable. Cecil simply tolerated her.

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Speaker 4: I don't think I was avoiding her, but I just

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Speaker 4: felt more comfortable, I think just being with Pat, and

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Speaker 4: she didn't. She didn't seem to mind being by herself

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Speaker 4: and everything. I remember one time I did ask her.

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Speaker 4: I said, Nanny, I said, do you ever get lonesome

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Speaker 4: being here all by yourself, you know, all day long,

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Speaker 4: because I'd go meet Pat and everything. And she said no,

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Speaker 4: that was all. She didn't get lonesome, no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: never went anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And Annie's defense. She was in her eighties by the

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Speaker 1: time she lived with Cecil and Patrick. It might have

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Speaker 1: been difficult for her to go places, But if Cecil

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Speaker 1: had known what Annie Crawford was accused of, she might

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Speaker 1: have been more wary and much more careful. It was

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Speaker 1: June twenty fifth of nineteen ten, and Chestnut Street in

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Speaker 1: Uptown New Orleans was quiet in the waning sunset. The

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Speaker 1: street lamps glowed as the city's iconic live oaks created

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Speaker 1: creepy shadows on the siding of the old Victorian houses.

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Speaker 1: Lights flickered in the windows of the neighbors houses. Inside

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Speaker 1: the Crawford home, a soft light from a nearby electric

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Speaker 1: lamp hummed while Mary Agnes Crawford slept. The Crawfords had

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Speaker 1: stored their gas lamps several years ago. As the daylight

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Speaker 1: disappeared and the night crept in the family, physician doctor H. B.

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Speaker 1: Gessner squinted at Mary Agnes in the light. Despite the

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Speaker 1: lamp's radiance, it still wasn't easy to see anything in detail.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Gessner had reviewed the thirty year old symptoms earlier

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Speaker 1: in the day. She had come plained of a sensitivity

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Speaker 1: to the light, her head ached, she was running a fever,

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Speaker 1: She felt sick to her stomach, her neck was stiff

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Speaker 1: and sore, and all of this came on very quickly.

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Speaker 1: Mary Agnes had been fine yesterday at her job with

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Speaker 1: the railway. It was Saturday, and Mary Agnes wasn't expected

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Speaker 1: at work. Even though many people did go to their

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Speaker 1: jobs on Saturdays, most folks in New Orleans had Sundays

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Speaker 1: off to attend church services, but at the turn of

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Speaker 1: the century, Saturdays were still considered part of the work week.

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Speaker 1: Annie thought about her old job at the sanitarium. Her

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Speaker 1: sisters had wondered if she would look for a similar

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Speaker 1: position at another hospital. That job had been a lot

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Speaker 1: of responsibility. It would have been trying for anyone, but

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Speaker 1: it didn't seem to bother Annie. From the time she

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Speaker 1: started five years earlier, she had been praised for her

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Speaker 1: work ethic, but when she was caught stealing narcotics, she

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Speaker 1: was fired. Immediately Before the sanitarium, Annie had briefly been

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Speaker 1: a telephone operator for the city for twelve dollars a month,

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Speaker 1: but when she earned her job at the hospital as

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Speaker 1: a clerk, she rose there quickly, earning fifty dollars a

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Speaker 1: month before she was fired. Annie was reliable, something the

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Speaker 1: hospital demanded of its employees, because the patients there really

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Speaker 1: required patients. Her supervisor once called her one of his

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Speaker 1: most trusted employees and a young woman committed to her

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Speaker 1: work at the sanitarium. Some sanitariums were health spas for

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Speaker 1: the rich who needed a mental break. Annie's place of

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Speaker 1: work was a sanitarium and a teaching hospital that treated

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Speaker 1: long term physical illnesses, so the patients were likely treated

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Speaker 1: with care. But I've always associated sanitariums with draconian mental

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Speaker 1: health facilities in the early nineteen hundreds. Those facilities often

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Speaker 1: used archaic methods to treat patients, water torture, deadly procedures.

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Speaker 1: They sounded like insaneess on Terence Fitzmorris talks about the

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Speaker 1: types of women who were admitted or taken involuntarily. Many

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Speaker 1: of them were no different from Annie. They would have

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Speaker 1: come from a similar socioeconomic background.

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Speaker 2: So for women like Annie, her grandparents were born in Ireland.

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Speaker 2: Her mother and father were both born in New Walleans.

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Speaker 2: Her mother of French descent her father of Irish descent.

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Speaker 2: There would have been little access for her to seek

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Speaker 2: out mental health issues. She would really have to have

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Speaker 2: been truly insane. Someone close to you would have to

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Speaker 2: say that you were so incompetent you could unhandle your

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Speaker 2: own personal duties and responsibilities to yourself.

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Speaker 1: And you'd have to go through a court proceeding.

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Speaker 2: And the judge would determine whether you were capable of

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Speaker 2: handling your own problems, and if you were not, then

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Speaker 2: he would sign you to an insane asylum where you

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Speaker 2: would supposedly be treated.

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Speaker 1: I know that a lot of the justifications used were

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Speaker 1: actually excuses.

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Speaker 2: There are advertisements in the newspapers about, you know, women

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Speaker 2: being overly emotional and that they needed serious care. The

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Speaker 2: advertisements that I've seen in the paper deal primarily with women,

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Speaker 2: whether it's change of life, or it's childbirth, or any

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Speaker 2: of these afflictions that women were prone to. The newspapers

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Speaker 2: are complete with that. The men are considered, you know,

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Speaker 2: if they are not manly enough, then their treatments that

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Speaker 2: they can give you to make you more manly, you know,

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Speaker 2: serums and massages and electrical shocks.

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Speaker 1: And there was the belief that women were more prone

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Speaker 1: to mental illness than men were.

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Speaker 2: The sane asylum records that the city of New Orleans

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Speaker 2: has points to a lot of women in those insane asylums.

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Speaker 2: They were considered with the Freudian notion of being hysterical

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Speaker 2: and thus the hysterectomy right and to end the hysterical

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Speaker 2: female per personality. Women considered more emotional, less rational, given

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Speaker 2: to fits of melancholy and depression.

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Speaker 1: I know what asylums were like in eighteen hundreds. They

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Speaker 1: gave patients bad treatments that many times killed those patients.

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Speaker 1: Were there any improvements in the nineteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: Well, there was a this is the phrase that was used.

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Speaker 2: It was the actual words that were used, a lunatic asylum,

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Speaker 2: and people who had mental illness as opposed to depression

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Speaker 2: and the light were treated in the same fashion as

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Speaker 2: they had been treated before. They was considered a moral affliction,

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Speaker 2: and so is more like a prison system for mental illness.

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Speaker 1: What would happen to a woman with mental health issues

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ten?

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Speaker 2: So if she had gone into an asylum, she would

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Speaker 2: have been treated just as an alcoholic was treated. Alcoholism

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Speaker 2: was considered a psychological moral affliction, and that's what she

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Speaker 2: would have been treated with.

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Speaker 1: But you had said that the same starium where Annie

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Speaker 1: worked was different than an asylum right well.

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Speaker 2: The sanitarium that she worked for was more akin to

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Speaker 2: a hospital, more like charity hospital than it was insane asylum.

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Speaker 1: Until recently, Annie Crawford had what appeared to be a

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Speaker 1: good life. She had a prestigious job at a respected hospital,

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Speaker 1: and she came from a large family who all lived

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Speaker 1: together in a relatively safe, working class area. Annie wasn't married,

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Speaker 1: with children, or even dating, but she didn't seem to mind.

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Speaker 1: She didn't have friends, but she didn't seem to mind

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Speaker 1: that either. She was close to Emma, her older sister,

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Speaker 1: so it seemed like she was capable of being close

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Speaker 1: to people. But Annie kept to herself, and she kept

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Speaker 1: a secret from her family. She never revealed why she

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Speaker 1: was no longer at the sanitarium. She told them that

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Speaker 1: she had resigned. She refused to admit that she had

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Speaker 1: been stealing drugs. The sanitarium was always busy, so no

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Speaker 1: one seemed to notice when it happened a few months ago.

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Speaker 1: Annie would open the medicine cabinet at the dispensary and

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Speaker 1: she would palm some small white pills in a bottle,

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Speaker 1: very powerful small white pills, morphine it's an narcotic that

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Speaker 1: can be a godsend for someone in agony, or a

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Speaker 1: source of addiction for someone in pain, or for a

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Speaker 1: murderer a weapon. How would Annie Crawford use her supply

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Speaker 1: of morphine? I didn't know much about morphine until two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine when I got a morphine epidural injection

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Speaker 1: when I was giving birth to my twin girls. I

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Speaker 1: asked author Alan Gotrow about how morphine had been used

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Speaker 1: in medicine throughout history.

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Speaker 3: Morphine is named after Morpheus, god of sleep, and well,

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Speaker 3: it is highly addictive. We see it in other synthetic

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Speaker 3: forms like demarol, and after the Civil War there was

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Speaker 3: a high at rate.

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Speaker 1: We talked about those soldiers earlier Civil War veterans who

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Speaker 1: suffered from painful wounds for the rest of their lives

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Speaker 1: after they returned home, and how they became addicted to

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Speaker 1: morphine because it made them feel better for a little while.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Neil Bradbury talks a little bit more about that addiction.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so morphine is a depressant. Chemically, it depresses the

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Speaker 5: brain activity. It causes sleepiness in reasonable levels, but in

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Speaker 5: high levels it depresses the ability of the person to breathe.

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Speaker 1: Someone who uses morphine will likely experience a feeling of euphoria,

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Speaker 1: a warmth throughout their body that is unmatched and very

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Speaker 1: dangerous if you don't understand the dosage, and if you

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Speaker 1: measure incorrectly, the results can be deadly. Too much morphine

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Speaker 1: can lead to a quiet death, like dozing off and

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Speaker 1: never waking up.

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Speaker 5: And so person who is given a morphine overdose will

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Speaker 5: eventually slowly fall asleep and then stop breathing. It is

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Speaker 5: one of the more or should I say it's one

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Speaker 5: of the less dramatic ways of dying.

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Speaker 1: The Civil War gave rise to hypodermic needles in America

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Speaker 1: after physicians began using them on injured soldiers, but needles

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Speaker 1: helped create the opioid epidemic in the late eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: Injecting the drug directly into your bloodstream brought on that

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Speaker 1: euphoric feeling much faster than ingesting a pill, quicker results.

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Speaker 1: Author and poison expert Deborah Blum says that morphine is

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Speaker 1: so powerful that an injection can kill anyone very easily.

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Speaker 1: But the morphine pills that Annie Crawford was stealing took

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Speaker 1: longer to work than morphine injected with a hypodermic needle.

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Speaker 6: It's most effectively injected, right. It's like rhysin is most

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Speaker 6: effective if you inject it, if you swallow it or

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Speaker 6: in halo, it's not a poisonous but you can swallow it, right.

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Speaker 6: But medically you tend to inject it, and it's you know,

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Speaker 6: a depress and a nervous system depressant basically, so you

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Speaker 6: feel less pain, but it can also entirely shut down

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Speaker 6: your nervous system.

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Speaker 1: And kill you. That's not to say that morphine pills

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Speaker 1: weren't deadly. They were. They just took longer to work.

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Speaker 1: But it would be difficult for a poisoner to secretly

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Speaker 1: inject someone with morphine, so for most of them, pills

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Speaker 1: would have to do. And if those pills were given

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Speaker 1: secretly to a victim, they might feel just a little

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Speaker 1: bit sleepy at first. Then they might have light sensitivity

294
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Speaker 1: or nausea, or a cracking headache or a sore neck.

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Speaker 1: Sound familiar. These were all symptoms that Mary Agnes Crawford

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Speaker 1: was experiencing. But these symptoms are associated with spinal meningitis too.

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Speaker 1: That's what she was diagnosed with. If she didn't have

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Speaker 1: spinal meningitis? Was Mary Agnes being poisoned, and if so why?

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Speaker 1: We know that Annie Crawford had access to morphine at

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Speaker 1: the sanitarium where she worked, and she had been fired

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00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 1: the month before for stealing morphine pills, though no one

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00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: in her family knew that. We also know that Annie

303
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: was sneaky and cold and probably untrustworthy. But as Mary

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00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 1: Agnes drifted toward a coma, no one suspected Annie of

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00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: doing anything wrong, not even her suspicious aunt Mary, who

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00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 1: lived nearby. Annie seemed just as concerned as everyone else

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00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 1: about her sister's sudden illness. As she hovered around Mary

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00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,920
Speaker 1: Agnes's bedside. Doctor Gessner zipped his medicine bag and asked

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Speaker 1: the family to keep him informed. There was little to

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Speaker 1: be done now. If this had been spinal meningitis, then

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Speaker 1: it could have come about in several different ways. It

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00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 1: was likely bacterial, which was life threatening without emergency antibiotic treatment,

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Speaker 1: but the trouble was that penicillin wasn't available until nineteen ten.

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Speaker 1: It would have been unusual for the meningitis to be

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Speaker 1: fungal or parasitic, and so hopefully it was viral, which

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00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 1: was more common if what Mary Agnes had was viral,

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Speaker 1: then she might recover with no treatment. All the Crawfords

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Speaker 1: could do was pray and keep an eye on her.

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Speaker 1: But then, a few days after the doctor's visit, Annie

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00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: stopped in to check on Mary Agnes. She was cold,

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Speaker 1: her eyes were closed, her body was still. Mary Agnes Crawford,

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Speaker 1: at age thirty, was dead. Gertrude and Elise and their

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00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 1: parents seemed to all be in disbelief. One of their

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Speaker 1: most beloved family members was gone. Doctor Gesner returned to

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Speaker 1: the house and offered his final diagnosis. Yes, it was

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Speaker 1: certainly meningitis, slightly bacterial. Up to ninety percent of those

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Speaker 1: cases were fatal in the early nineteen hundreds. The Crawfords

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00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: were devastated over the young woman's death. Emma and Walter

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Speaker 1: Crawford mourned their daughter. Mary Agnes's sisters, Gertrude, Emma, and

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Speaker 1: Elise wept. Alise seemed to take it the hardest. Elise

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Speaker 1: was heartbroken over Mary Agnes's death. She sobbed. She had

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00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: always seemed just slightly unstable. Alise had been dating a

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Speaker 1: local grocer named Edward Zahn, but he never wanted to

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Speaker 1: commit fully She had hoped for an engagement at some point,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't seem likely. Other family members were concerned

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00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 1: about her mental health. They feared at times that she

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Speaker 1: might want to take her own life. Elise had kept

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00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 1: secrets from them, secrets she was ashamed of. As Elise wept,

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Speaker 1: Annie seemed emotionless. She watched Elise. They had never gotten along. Ever.

340
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Speaker 1: Was Annie simply a reserved person who had trouble even

341
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Speaker 1: feigning grief, Yes, according to most people who knew her.

342
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 1: But was she a poisoner? Or did Mary Agnes simply

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Speaker 1: die of natural causes. I've always been interested in poisoners,

344
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Speaker 1: especially nineteen century poisoners. There were many cases when women

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00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: bought arsenic over the counter in the form of rat poison.

346
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: It was called rough on rats. They used it to

347
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 1: murder their husbands, or their lovers, or their romantic rivals.

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Speaker 1: The history of crime is littered with stories of women

349
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Speaker 1: using poison to achieve very clear objectives. But their selection

350
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Speaker 1: of weapons was finite because undetectable poisons were limited even

351
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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds. They're even more limited now thanks

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Speaker 1: to modern toxicology. Even so, poisoners in the eighteen hundreds

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00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 1: did have some options. Historically, symptoms of arsenic poisoning had

354
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: been difficult for police to spot because they often mimicked

355
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: other gastro intestinal issues like cramping or vomiting. But by

356
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century, pathologists were catching on and investigators

357
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: began watching for signs of arsenic Author Deborah Blum says

358
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Speaker 1: that the twentieth century poisoner had options beyond just arsenic,

359
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: unlike the nineteenth century poisoner, and these were options that

360
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: allowed them to murder with ease.

361
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Speaker 6: So I'm a poisoner and I'm going to plan ahead.

362
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Speaker 6: I'm going to sound really creepy when I'm walking through this,

363
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 6: I expect. But if you're a poisoner that one of

364
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 6: your primary objectives is to get away with it, you're

365
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 6: not making a statement killing, right. There are killings that

366
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 6: happen because people are sending a message. They're not trying

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Speaker 6: to make things hard on themselves. Since so the early

368
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 6: twentieth century is a time period where a lot of

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Speaker 6: really great homicidal poisons are at hand.

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Speaker 1: So when you're a poisoner, you're actually trying to slip

371
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: away and to get away with something. You're not trying

372
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Speaker 1: to send a message with this type of murder.

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Speaker 6: That's not what you do as a poisoner. You're figuring

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Speaker 6: out how to eliminate a problem, a person, a threat,

375
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 6: obstacle to your wealth, right, your rival. You're a poisoners,

376
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 6: you know, I have all kinds of grudges that go

377
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 6: in play when they want to get rid of someone,

378
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 6: or they're afraid. I've seen some of the poisoners that

379
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Speaker 6: I've looked at called comfort killers. They kill for their

380
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 6: personal comfort, right, And so you're I want to have

381
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 6: a cushy life. You have the money, and I don't.

382
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 6: I want to get rid of you, but I don't

383
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Speaker 6: want to get caught. I want to enjoy the money.

384
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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: If you were an investigator in nineteen ten and you

386
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: suspected that Annie Crawford were a poisoner, you would look

387
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: for a motive. Did Annie see Mary Agnes as a

388
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: romantic rival? Did she hate her enough to kill her

389
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: for some reason? Was she working with someone else in

390
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 1: the family who had a grudge against Mary Agnes? These

391
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: were all logical questions. Let's take each one of them

392
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: one by one. Mary Agnes didn't appear to be dating anyone,

393
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: so the romantic rival query was a dead one. Annie

394
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: might have disliked many people, but she didn't seem to

395
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 1: hate anyone, including Mary Agnes. And the Copper family might

396
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: have been dysfunctional, but there didn't seem to be any

397
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: animosity except between Annie and her aunt Mary, unless there

398
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 1: were secrets that we still don't know about, and there are.

399
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Speaker 1: According to the doctor, Mary Agnes died of spinal meningitis,

400
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: and that was certainly possible. The signs of spinal meningitis

401
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: are a headache, a fever, and a stiff neck, all

402
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: symptoms that Mary Agnes had. But these symptoms are also

403
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: the same if she had been poisoned. If we eliminate

404
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: all of the motives we mentioned before, what are we

405
00:25:54,560 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: left with. This is where the story gets complicated. If

406
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: Annie Crawford had been guilty of intentionally poisoning Mary Agnes,

407
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: there are some other possible motives. Even though these motives

408
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: are unlikely for this case, it's good to at least

409
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: talk about them. In criminology, there's a category of killers

410
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: called Angel of Mercy offenders. Many times these are people

411
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: in the medical field who intentionally hurt or kill patients.

412
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: But the strange thing is that the reasons they do

413
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: it really vary. I asked doctor Neil Bradbury about some

414
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: of those motives.

415
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 5: I think there's also a part of it that some

416
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 5: of the individuals are what would we would refer to

417
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 5: as angels of mercy that see people in pain and

418
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 5: decide that they should be the ones responsible for getting

419
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 5: rid of the pain. And the only way you can

420
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 5: really do that is by killing the individuals.

421
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: But of course the patient's pain might not really exist.

422
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: It could be a illusion created by the angel of mercy.

423
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: Doctor Bradbury says that sometimes these types of killers simply

424
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: have a God complex.

425
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 5: I think part of it is experimentation. You learn about

426
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 5: drugs and chemicals in your classes, and there's always a

427
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 5: question of I wonder what this would really look like

428
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 5: if it was used on someone. And there are other

429
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 5: people that just feel that they have the power to

430
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 5: have life and death in their hands and are able

431
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 5: to just dispatch of someone a whim.

432
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: Tell me about a case.

433
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 5: One of the individuals that actually led to legislation was

434
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 5: Charles Cullen, who was a nurse in New Jersey and

435
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 5: he went through several hospitals in New Jersey killing people

436
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 5: with dejoxin.

437
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: What is that?

438
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 5: Dejoxin is a drug that's used extensively for treating heart conditions.

439
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 5: It's a very useful drug, but in the wrong amounts

440
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 5: can lead to heart attack and death.

441
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: How was he getting away with that?

442
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 5: The interesting thing is that no one knew how he

443
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 5: was killing people. And that's because when nurses and doctors

444
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 5: give out drugs in hospitals, there is a machine that

445
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 5: holds all the drugs. The pharmacists will load up the

446
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 5: machine and the machine will be taken round the various

447
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 5: hospital rooms, and then a nurse will type in what

448
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 5: medication they want. Culin seemed to be giving out a

449
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 5: lot of thilanol.

450
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: Why would tailand all be interesting?

451
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 5: Well, the interesting thing is that thilanol is the trade name.

452
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 5: The chemical name is a sea to minifin, and a

453
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 5: sea to Minifin was exactly in the same draw a

454
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 5: to d that also held the jocks in. He was

455
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 5: typing in, I want to see to minifin, going in

456
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 5: to the drawer, pulling out de jocks in, injecting it

457
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 5: into people and killing them.

458
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 4: Wow.

459
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 5: There were several opportunities to arrest Charles Cullen, but unfortunately

460
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 5: the hospitals decided that it was better for them just

461
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 5: to pass him on and allow him to resign and

462
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 5: move on to different hospitals. No one wanted to take responsibility.

463
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 5: There was actually a legislation that was called Cullen's Law

464
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 5: that required hospitals to report to the state agencies if

465
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 5: they have any suspicions of nurses that may be doing

466
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 5: harm to their patients.

467
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: Later, we'll meet a former nurse who was addicted to

468
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: drugs and she stole them from her patients. When her

469
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: supervisors began to suspect she was stealing, she wasn't reported.

470
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: She was passed around from facility to facility, just like

471
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: Charles Cullen. The supervisor said, just as long as she

472
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: doesn't work at my facil I don't care. An angel

473
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: of mercy might kill patients out of a delusional idea

474
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: that it's a mercy killing. Or they might enjoy experimenting

475
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: with the drugs they use and they want to share

476
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: that feeling with others. Or they might just be sadistic

477
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: and relish murdering just for the sake of murdering. The

478
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: sadistic poisoner is the one that might fit our society's

479
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: traditional definition of a serial killer someone who murders at

480
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: least three people with a cooling off period in between,

481
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: and they do it for some kind of dysfunctional gratification.

482
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: Author Mary Kay McBrayer wrote a book about one of

483
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: those sadistic killers, Jane Tappin. Jolly Jane, as she was nicknamed,

484
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: was a nurse in the late eighteen hundreds and early

485
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds who murdered at least twelve people using poison,

486
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: and she confessed to killing at least a dozen more.

487
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: She seemed to enjoy torturing them. Mary Jane explains more

488
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: about Jane Tappin's motives for poisoning people and then watching

489
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: them die.

490
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 7: My thinking is, and this is also corroborated by her confession,

491
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 7: is that she would dose people with morphine so they'd

492
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 7: be unconscious. And then I think she overdosed someone on

493
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 7: accident and tried to cover it up with atropine and

494
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 7: did it and then was like, oh no, I can

495
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 7: really do it. And then and we don't have to

496
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 7: go too far into detail on this, but she got

497
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 7: in the bed with people and derived sexual gratification from

498
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 7: doing that to them as they were about to die,

499
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 7: and then bring them back. I think it is just

500
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 7: if no one else can recognize how smart I am,

501
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 7: at least I'm going to prove it to myself like

502
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 7: I know I can do it. It's a mad scientisty

503
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 7: type of perversion, I think.

504
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: So, let's suppose that Mary Agnes Crawford was actually poisoned

505
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: and it could be proven. Are we certain that it

506
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: was Annie who did it? Alan Gotrow isn't so sure yet.

507
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 3: So maybe she thought there wasn't going to be any consequences.

508
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: Maybe she thought nobody was going to find out. You know,

509
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: it falls in line with you know, it's one of

510
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 3: those strange cases in history where we just don't know

511
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: a lot about the reasons why.

512
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: If Mary Agnes were poisoned, there was no way to

513
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: prove it without physical evidence, which would likely be found

514
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: at an autopsy. And because Mary Agnes's doctor wasn't suspicious,

515
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: he didn't alert the medical examiner, so there wouldn't be

516
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: an autopsy. It sounds like we need more information, and

517
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: perhaps we can learn more by tracking Annie's actions after

518
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: her sister's death because they were suspicious. Mary Agnes died

519
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: on a Saturday at the end of June in nineteen ten.

520
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: The Crawford family all dressed in black, which indicated that

521
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: they were in mourning. Their neighbors comforted Walter and Emma

522
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: Crawford because of the loss of their daughter. Everyone stayed

523
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: home on Monday, except for Annie. First thing that morning,

524
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: Annie Crawford slipped out of her family's home on Chestnut Street.

525
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: She walked to the Saint Charles street car that would

526
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: take her near the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company on South

527
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: Carrollton Avenue, about three miles away. She swung open the

528
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: door of the one story red brick building and summoned

529
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: an agent. As the man took notes, Annie explained her situation.

530
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: Her older sister Mary Agnes had just unexpectedly died. It

531
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: was a tragedy for her family, and they needed money

532
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: to pay the funeral expenses. Funeral expenses in nineteen ten

533
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: varied wildly, just like they do today. Despite having modest incomes,

534
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: Each member of the Crawford family agreed to do something

535
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: very practical. They all had life insurance policies. The funds

536
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: would be used in cases just like this one to

537
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: help make up the lost income from the dead family member.

538
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: Annie Crawford wanted to know about her sister's policy. How

539
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: much was it? She asked the Metropolitan Life insurance agent.

540
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes had a three hundred dollars life insurance policy.

541
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: Three hundred dollars would be worth about nine thousand dollars today.

542
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: The whole family used a nicola week system, which meant

543
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: that they paid a nicola week, which is why the

544
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: policy was quite small. Was three hundred dollars enough money

545
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: to help make up Mary Agnes's income for the entire

546
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 1: Crawford family the five people that were left, not for long?

547
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: But would three hundred dollars benefit three people?

548
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 3: Maybe?

549
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: And it turns out that Annie Crawford and her two

550
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: sisters were the only beneficiaries of Mary Agnes's insurance policy.

551
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: The agent at the insurance company asked Annie for her

552
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: sister's death certificate, and she handed him a piece of

553
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: paper signed by the coroner that morning. Under cause of

554
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: death it read acute meningitis. The agent approved the payout.

555
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 1: Let's review the evidence. So far, Annie Crawford had access

556
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: to some very powerful narcotics. Before she was fired from

557
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: the hospital, she had been stealing morphine in large amounts.

558
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: Annie collected the equivalent of almost nine thousand dollars from

559
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: her sister's life insurance policy, but she would need to

560
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: split it with her sisters. Would she really kill Mary

561
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: Agnes over a few thousand dollars? But remember each of

562
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: the Crawfords had life insurance policies. Each person who died

563
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: left their savings behind and the funds from their own

564
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 1: policy that could really add up. In June of nineteen ten,

565
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes was given a funeral mass at Saint Stephen

566
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Maintenance workers at Saint Patrick's Cemetery shoveled mounds

567
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: of dirt for Mary Agnes's grave, which was raised a

568
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: few feet above the ground, so that resulted in a

569
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: lot of dirt. Annie Crawford and her sisters all wore

570
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: black paul bearers carried Mary Agnes's casket across the grass

571
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: of Saint Patrick's yard for a sunny graveside ceremony where

572
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: the priest recited prayers. At the end of the service,

573
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: the mourners recited the Lord's Prayer. Even this modest service

574
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: would have come into price. Mary Agnes died just one

575
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: month before her thirty first birthday. She would be the

576
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: first Crawford buried at the cemetery on City Park Avenue,

577
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: at least the first in their immediate family, but she

578
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the last Crawford in a very short period

579
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: of time. As we said earlier, it was possible that

580
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes Crawford did die of spinal meningitis. If Annie

581
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: Crawford were a murderer, it seems obvious to me that

582
00:36:48,760 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: her motive was to collect the life insurance money. The

583
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: patriarch of the Crawford family, Walter Crawford, had never been

584
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: a wealthy man. He was a carpenter for the railway,

585
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: and his wife Emma ran the home and was there

586
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: to greet him every day after work. Walter seemed pleasant enough,

587
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: a devout Irish Catholic who had been married for decades.

588
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: His daughters often cooked for him, especially Annie. Walter hadn't

589
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: been particularly well off, but he was comfortable and generally

590
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,959
Speaker 1: healthy for a fifty eight year old man in nineteen ten.

591
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: He never had major health concerns, so a few weeks

592
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: after Mary Agnes's death, when Walter Crawford complained of stomach

593
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: cramping and nausea, some of the same symptoms that she

594
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: had complained of, it was understandably troubling. Walter's hips were aching.

595
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: He was in agony. Walter clutched his stomach as his

596
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: wife Emma hovered above him. Annie was nearby too. Walter's

597
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: illness was worrisome. Was this another case of spinal meningitis

598
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: or something even worse? Do you believe in coincidences? I do,

599
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: but maybe not in this story. What did Ian Fleming

600
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: write in his novel Goldfinger once is happenstance twice as coincidence,

601
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: the third time is enemy action. On the next episode

602
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: of tenfold war wicked on exactly right.

603
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: So it was a very dysfunctional family, There's no question

604
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: of that. And I found that the men were without

605
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: really any say so in the matter. They took a

606
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: back seat to everything.

607
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 8: You know. The received wys was there was no such thing,

608
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 8: as you know, female serial murder, And in doing research

609
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 8: on an earlier book, I realized that there have been many,

610
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 8: many female serial killers. They just tend to commit their

611
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 8: crimes in different ways from male serial killers.

612
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: Dealing with true crime or historical crime. As I'm sure

613
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 3: you are you know, because you're experience dating, I would

614
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 3: have to describe her as sociopathic, psychopathic, addictive, personality and

615
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: someone that thought they saw themselves as somewhat maybe deep

616
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: down inside, as an angel of mercy. But there was

617
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: nothing that she did that was merciful.

618
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: If you love a good, real ghost story, my new

619
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Speaker 1: audiobook Original The Ghost Club is available for pre order

620
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Speaker 1: now wherever audiobooks are sold. I can't wait to tell

621
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Speaker 1: you the real story about the world's most famous ghost hunter,

622
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Speaker 1: who was the head of the world's most famous ghost club,

623
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Speaker 1: and how he investigated England's most famous haunted house. Please

624
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Speaker 1: also check out my new book All That Is Wicked,

625
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Speaker 1: which is based on the first season of Tenfold War Wicked.

626
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right tenfold War. Media production

627
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Emirosi and Natalie Wrinn, sound designer

628
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

629
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow us

630
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook at Tenfold War Wicked and on

631
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 1: Twitter at Tenfold War And. If you know of a

632
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: historical crime that could use some attention, especially if it

633
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 1: happened in your family, email us at info at Tenfoldwarwicked

634
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Speaker 1: dot com