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Speaker 1: We are back for a brand new season of their

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Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I miss talking to you

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Speaker 1: all so much, and since we've been on hiatus, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty excited for a new way to stay in touch

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Speaker 1: on Patreon. Over on our new Patreon, you can get

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Speaker 1: even more bonus content and just generally support the work

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Speaker 1: that we've been doing with the show. So if you

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Speaker 1: like what you've been doing and want to hear more

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Speaker 1: or just support the show, consider subscribing. You can find

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Speaker 1: that at patreon dot com slash tangody that's Ta Nngoti,

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Speaker 1: or just search for There No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: On Patreon, there's exclusive audio, exclusive writing, and a monthly

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Speaker 1: live chat with me.

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Speaker 2: Bridget.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to start the Patreon to open up new

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Speaker 1: ways to connect with all of you, so I hope

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Speaker 1: you'll join me there and help us shape the direction

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Speaker 1: of the show. I'll see you over on Patreon.

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Speaker 3: Because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right, a young

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Speaker 3: woman who has authentically lived her life on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls.

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Speaker 2: On the Internet.

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Speaker 1: In this brand new season that we're calling Present Future,

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Speaker 1: we're looking to what's next, the future of tech, the

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Speaker 1: future of discourse, the future of platforms, and the future

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Speaker 1: of us. But we're starting in kind of a familiar place.

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Speaker 1: We've already spent a lot of time talking about disinformation,

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Speaker 1: and I usually ask experts one question, So when you

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Speaker 1: think about the direction of our media ecosystem and disinformation,

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Speaker 1: are you hopeful, Like when you look on the horizon,

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Speaker 1: are you hopeful about what's next when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the future of combating disinformation. More and more we're seeing

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Speaker 1: some targets of particularly heinous disinformation campaigns using the judicial

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Speaker 1: system to fight back. Egene Carrol successfully sued former Present

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Speaker 1: sident Trump for defamation after he claimed that her allegation

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Speaker 1: that he sexually abused her was a lie. It wasn't,

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Speaker 1: and a jury ruled against him, and Carol has said

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Speaker 1: that she may even sue Trump again because Trump doubled

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Speaker 1: down on that defamatory lie in a disastrous CNN town

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Speaker 1: hall the very next day after that ruling, and after

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Speaker 1: Dominion Voting Systems sued Fox News for falsely claiming that

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Speaker 1: its voting machines through the twenty twenty election, Fox settled

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Speaker 1: for seven hundred and eighty seven million dollars, pretty much

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Speaker 1: acknowledging that the network promoting lies about the election in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty was defamatory, and now a new defamation lawsuit

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Speaker 1: against Fox News may provide a signal about the future

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Speaker 1: of telling lies for profit. Last year, one of the

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Speaker 1: nation's leading disinformation experts, Nina Jenkowitz, was appointed by Biden

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Speaker 1: to head up the Disinformation Governance Board within the Department

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Speaker 1: of Homeland Security to learn about and counter disinformation. And

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Speaker 1: immediately afterward, Nina and her family were targetd with lies, threats,

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Speaker 1: and harassment Paul while she was pregnant. Days ago, Nina

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Speaker 1: filed a defamation lawsuit against Fox News. Could this be

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Speaker 1: the blueprint of how we curbed disinformation in the future.

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Speaker 1: Shortly after Nina was named to the Governance Board, I

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Speaker 1: was scheduled to interview her about her book, How to

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Speaker 1: Be a Woman Online, which chronicles online harassment. But we

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Speaker 1: couldn't because Nina had to retreat from public life after

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Speaker 1: the harassment campaign against her got so bad. And strangely enough,

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Speaker 1: Nina isn't even the first person that I've had to

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Speaker 1: navigate interviewing while they were basically off the grid because

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Speaker 1: of threats, and the continued sting of being silenced and

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Speaker 1: not getting to do her work because of lies and

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Speaker 1: threats was looming large when I finally did get to

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Speaker 1: speak to Nina. So the first time that you and

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Speaker 1: I were supposed to talk, it'd were not able to

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Speaker 1: do the interview because you were at the target of

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Speaker 1: some pretty nasty, heinous harassment. So I have to start

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Speaker 1: by just asking how are you.

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Speaker 4: I am doing.

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Speaker 5: Okay now, Bridget, thanks for asking.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it is difficult to recover from something like

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Speaker 3: what happened to me, which kind of upended.

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Speaker 5: My entire life and the career plan I had.

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Speaker 3: And just kind of the short version the TLDR of

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Speaker 3: what happened to me is I was appointed to a

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Speaker 3: position in the Biden administration to work on a working

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Speaker 3: group that was meant to kind of bring together bodies

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Speaker 3: within the Department of Homeland Security that were working on

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Speaker 3: counter disinformation. That working group was misconstrued in the press

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Speaker 3: and mostly the right wing press, as a ministry of

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Speaker 3: truth that was going to have the power to censor Americans.

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Speaker 5: Of course, we had no such power. Operationally.

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Speaker 3: We had no power, we had no full time staff

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Speaker 3: except for me, and no budget. So I don't know

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Speaker 3: where they thought we were going to do all.

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Speaker 5: This, but at any rate, it was totally misconstrued.

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Speaker 3: My personal life and like my online presence and all

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Speaker 3: sorts of things got dragged through the mud. I was

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Speaker 3: eight and a half months pregnant at the time, and

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Speaker 3: I ended up leaving the department, and not because of

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Speaker 3: the harassment, really, but because the department wasn't sticking up

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Speaker 3: for me or for the work, and they ended up

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Speaker 3: disbanding the working group and saying there was no need

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Speaker 3: for it, which I think is laughable at best. And

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Speaker 3: so since then, I obviously have my baby, I've been

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Speaker 3: kind of taking some maternity leave, taking time with my family,

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Speaker 3: and have kind of been recalibrating what it is I

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Speaker 3: want to do and how I want to show up

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Speaker 3: and like make an impact in the world. And after

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Speaker 3: my unfortunate experience with public service, it's kind of bringing

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Speaker 3: me to the conclusion that, like, really the work that

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Speaker 3: I want to do has to happen from outside of government, at.

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Speaker 5: Least right now, at least with this administration.

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Speaker 4: Wow, you know, I where do I even start.

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Speaker 1: I'll say, it's something interesting to me that you wrote

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Speaker 1: a book about how you survive online harassment as a

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Speaker 1: woman and found yourself and a really weird time in

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Speaker 1: your life like at the target of that, And it

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Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of like what I know about

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Speaker 1: things like reputational smear campaigns, where it's interesting to me

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Speaker 1: that like the administration did not support you. It would

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Speaker 1: have been I would have expected they obviously respected your

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Speaker 1: leadership enough to give you this position and then to

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Speaker 1: turn around and so quickly distance themselves from you is

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Speaker 1: really telling to me. And I think that's one of

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Speaker 1: the ways that reputational smears work. They want the target

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Speaker 1: to feel isolated, and they want to make it seem

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Speaker 1: that if somebody sticks up for them that will be

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Speaker 1: a bad look for them. So rather than supporting you,

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Speaker 1: they just are like, oh, that's just distance.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: I do have to say, I'll give credit where credit

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Speaker 3: is due, you know. Secretary Mayorcus went on the Sunday

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Speaker 3: shows and called me like an eminent expert, and Jen

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Speaker 3: SACKI had some talking points to say at the White

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Speaker 3: House podium about me.

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Speaker 5: But when you're confronting.

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Speaker 3: The entire gop lie and rage machine just not enough.

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Speaker 3: Like I was on every I think seventy percent of

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Speaker 3: Fox News hourly segments for like an entire week, and

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Speaker 3: it continued for two weeks after that too. Like everyone

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Speaker 3: was like, Oh, it'll go away, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 5: It didn't.

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Speaker 3: Because everybody loves attacking a young woman, right, a young

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Speaker 3: woman who has authentically lived her life on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to think of people who work on issues

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Speaker 1: like disinformation as uptight skulds. It's actually a misconception that

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Speaker 1: I've encountered a lot in my work. But Nina's vibe

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Speaker 1: is really lively and full of energy, and it lends

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Speaker 1: itself perfectly to a platform like TikTok, where she made

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Speaker 1: a cute video of her singing in a Mary Poppin'

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Speaker 1: style about disinformation. Nina loves musical theater. Now, this is

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing that anybody might try to do

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Speaker 1: to connect on their issues with a new audience. But

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Speaker 1: if you were watching Fox News, you would think this

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Speaker 1: was criminal. They played Nina's TikTok over and over again

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Speaker 1: and turned it into an attack, not just an attack

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Speaker 1: on Nina's work, but on Nina as a person.

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Speaker 5: Part and grief feminist part. Frustrated karaoke singer Jankoitz is

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Speaker 5: the last.

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Speaker 6: Person who should be trusted with distinguishing between fact and fiction.

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Speaker 3: Like there are videos of me performing musical theater people

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Speaker 3: like to make fun of that. I had a TikTok

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Speaker 3: video where I was like trying to connect with a

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Speaker 3: different audience by doing a parody of a Mary Poppins song.

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Speaker 3: It was very tongue in cheek and very deliberately silly

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Speaker 3: and campy, and everyone was.

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Speaker 5: Like, oh my god, this is so cringe. It's not

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Speaker 5: fucking cringe. I'm sorry, it's not cringe.

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Speaker 3: It's exactly what I wanted it be, and I'm I'm

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Speaker 3: not embarrassed of it at all. Frankly, Like Tucker Carlson

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Speaker 3: kept playing it over and over on his show, and

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Speaker 3: it's like, thanks Tucker, Like now more people have heard

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Speaker 3: me sing than I could ever.

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Speaker 5: Have hoped for in my entire life. But but what.

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Speaker 3: You say is true, Like I think like I wasn't

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Speaker 3: close enough for the administration for them to want to

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Speaker 3: stick their neck out for me, and the work clearly

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Speaker 3: wasn't important enough for them.

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Speaker 5: To like risk everything for it.

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Speaker 3: And that's disappointing because what is more the core of

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Speaker 3: our democracy right now than how our body politic deals

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Speaker 3: with information, right or disinformation, frankly, And so that was

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Speaker 3: really disappointing. And it was also disappointing because the Biden

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Speaker 3: administration made such a big deal about hiring women and

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Speaker 3: people of color to political appointments and to the cabinet,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, Okay, if you're above a certain level,

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Speaker 3: they're gonna they're gonna go to bat for you, but

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Speaker 3: not if you're you know, at the level that I am, which, frankly,

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Speaker 3: you know, for the amount of attention that people paid

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Speaker 3: to me, you'd think I was like God. But I

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Speaker 3: was just a GS fifteen, which is like a high

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Speaker 3: ranking but not Senate confirmed appointee in Washington, with very

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Speaker 3: little decision making power.

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Speaker 5: I wasn't.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't like, you know, all powerful in DHS. I

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Speaker 3: had a lot of layers above me, which you know,

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Speaker 3: is illustrated by the way that the whole thing was

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Speaker 3: rolled out. If it had been rolled out more transparently

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Speaker 3: the way that I had kind of asked for within

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Speaker 3: the department, I wouldn't have been in as bad a

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Speaker 3: situation as I read.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break at her back.

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Speaker 1: Long ago and what seems like a distant, bygone era.

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Speaker 1: We used to say that you should ignore bullies and

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Speaker 1: they'll just go away, but it doesn't really work like

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Speaker 1: that when it comes to disinformation. Nina was facing an

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Speaker 1: onslaught of lies and attacks during her time at the

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Speaker 1: Biden administration, and she wasn't even allowed to speak up

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Speaker 1: for herself and correct the record, so the only messages

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Speaker 1: about her that were out there were smears, lies and attacks.

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Speaker 3: They wouldn't let me, you know, speak up for myself,

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Speaker 3: which again, if I were above a certain level, I would.

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Speaker 5: Have been able to do that.

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Speaker 3: So the whole thing was frustrating, and it also just

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Speaker 3: kind of goes to show that, like there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of work left to do in our institutions, not just government,

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Speaker 3: but you know, in journalistic institutions, et cetera, for sticking

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Speaker 3: up for people who are on like the public facing

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Speaker 3: side of things, especially women and people of color who

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Speaker 3: receive such outside harassment online and in real life as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I to prepare for this interview, I

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Speaker 1: watched some of the clips, like interviews that you gave

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Speaker 1: on shows, and I'm not going to say any names,

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Speaker 1: there was one I was like, this guy is basically

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Speaker 1: being like I heard this lie about you thoughts, and

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Speaker 1: it was like, yeah, it's not true.

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Speaker 4: You know, Like, I definitely think.

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Speaker 1: That It kind of bumps me out that media, the

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Speaker 1: people that we ostensibly should be able to count on

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Speaker 1: to help people discern the truth, really don't feel any

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Speaker 1: obligation to do that. They and in some cases they

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Speaker 1: inflame the tensions and lies and give them more oxygen

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Speaker 1: and allow them to spread when they should be in

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Speaker 1: the business of truth spreading and debunking. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: seen people say things like, oh, this board was going

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Speaker 1: to have the ability to like control what regular people say,

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Speaker 1: And I've also seen you in interviews be very clear

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Speaker 1: that if that were the case, you wouldn't be on

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Speaker 1: that board because you deeply opposed that, Like, yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: not trafficking in truth and honest statements. We're trafficking and

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Speaker 1: lies and smears, and it's we're not going to get

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Speaker 1: anywhere if that's how we continue to do discourse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was so one of the

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Speaker 3: worst days was when I woke up, and.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it was just like three weeks of hell.

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Speaker 3: But I woke up one morning when I was still

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Speaker 3: at the department and Bill Maher had on his show

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Speaker 3: the night before just spread an absolute, complete piece of

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Speaker 3: bass about me.

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Speaker 7: The tizarre a Nina Jenkowitz says, she's like some committee

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Speaker 7: there within this governing board with the power to quote,

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Speaker 7: edit Twitter and add context. Oh you mean, like what

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Speaker 7: Twitter is?

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Speaker 2: That's what Twitter is.

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Speaker 5: When SRI says something you own content.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, these are not people in our.

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Speaker 5: Government, Okay.

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Speaker 3: An anonymous account online that had been for weeks going

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Speaker 3: through like all the videos of me ever posted to

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Speaker 3: the Internet. They had taken a clip from a conversation

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Speaker 3: that I had with a bunch of librarians in the

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Speaker 3: state of Georgia, and it was back from January twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one. They had taken it completely out of context

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Speaker 3: and made it seem like I had had kind of

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Speaker 3: floated this idea of editing people's tweets, but what I

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Speaker 3: had actually done, and if you watch the entire kind

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Speaker 3: of conversation, it is clear someone asks me, Hey, Nina,

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Speaker 3: I just heard about this thing on Twitter called bird Watch.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us about it? And for your listeners

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Speaker 3: that might not know. Birdwatch is a program that allows

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Speaker 3: people to add context to things that are trending on Twitter.

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Speaker 5: So like, let's use Ukraine as an example in the

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Speaker 5: UK war.

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Speaker 3: If people are claiming something that's trending like Russia was

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Speaker 3: responsible for this attack or Ukraine was responsible for this attack,

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Speaker 3: people who are you know, trusted individuals can get access

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Speaker 3: to this Birdwatch platform, which is now since then open

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Speaker 3: to everybody, and just add some context and say, okay,

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Speaker 3: here's a link to a news article, here are the

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Speaker 3: facts in this scenario. It's kind of like a built

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Speaker 3: in fact checking platform.

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Speaker 5: I was not.

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Speaker 3: Super familiar with it at the time, but I was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't like this because I don't want users to

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Speaker 3: be kind of the ones that are doing Twitter's work

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Speaker 3: for it. And I had this long, involved, nuanced answer

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Speaker 3: that I went on for five minutes. He chopped one

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Speaker 3: minute of it up, and I assume it's a man,

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Speaker 3: because let's see honest. Yeah, so I don't know because

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Speaker 3: he is anonymous, but I think it's a man. He

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Speaker 3: chopped one one part of it up and just put

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Speaker 3: in his tweet Nina wants to edit your tweets, and

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Speaker 3: this one absolutely viral.

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Speaker 5: Reputable reporters were being like, what if this is true?

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Speaker 8: Blah blah blah, and then Bill Maher, without any to

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Speaker 8: fact checking whatever, it, goes to his huge audience on

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Speaker 8: his late night show and says Nina Jenkwitz and the.

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Speaker 5: Disinformation Governance Board want to.

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Speaker 9: Be able to edit your tweets, and it's just like,

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Speaker 9: first of all, it's a stupid idea, like no, I

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Speaker 9: would never ask for that, and second of all, like

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Speaker 9: it's not no one tried to do any bit of.

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Speaker 5: Fact checking at all. If you follow the video.

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Speaker 3: Back to where it came from, you can find out

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Speaker 3: that actually, that's not what I said at all. And

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Speaker 3: it was not just Bill Maher, but other journalists who

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Speaker 3: who frankly, were just recycling this disinformation and not doing

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Speaker 3: their due diligence at all.

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Speaker 5: And it is disinformation, right.

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Speaker 3: Disinformation just isn't about cut and dry fakes or falsehoods.

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Speaker 3: It's about misleading information. And there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: misleading information presented about me. In fact, I just got

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Speaker 3: some more abuse and threats this week because somebody on

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Speaker 3: Fox mentioned me, and I was like, huh, what's this uptick?

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Speaker 3: About and I found that Greg Gutfield had talked about

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Speaker 3: me in a segment recently, and so one person wrote

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Speaker 3: to me on Facebook and said that I should be

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Speaker 3: thrown in jail for spreading lies about President Trump.

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Speaker 5: It's like, it's.

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Speaker 3: Interesting how they want to censor me, right, but they're

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Speaker 3: not okay with other people censoring them. And that's never

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Speaker 3: what I wanted to do in the first place. It's

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Speaker 3: just so cecuitous and crazy. Anyway, I'll stop digging now, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, does it do you find that it comes in

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Speaker 1: waves like that where it the harassment sort of stops

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Speaker 1: and then somebody will mention you and then you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: an uptick and then down tick?

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Speaker 4: Is that is that kind of how it trends?

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Speaker 5: Oh, one hundred percent?

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Speaker 3: And it's always interesting to find out what the kernel is.

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Speaker 3: So like, for the first probably seven weeks or so,

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Speaker 3: it was just pretty constant, especially the first three weeks.

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Speaker 3: It was just constant messages, constant dms, constant tweets, people

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Speaker 3: trying to friend me on Facebook and Instagram and whatever.

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Speaker 3: I had to lock my Instagram and Twitter accounts because

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Speaker 3: there was personal stuff on there that, like I was

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Speaker 3: comfortable with like the level of public figure miss that

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Speaker 3: I had before people seeing that, but now with people

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Speaker 3: doxing me and calling my mother and sending me letters.

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Speaker 5: To my home, like not as comfortable.

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Speaker 3: So there was that, But then, you know, the craziest

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Speaker 3: thing was the culpability that I think.

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Speaker 5: Some members of Congress have.

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Speaker 3: And I actually wrote a letter to Josh Holly and

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Speaker 3: Chuck Grassley because they continued this kind of or like,

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Speaker 3: continued perpetrating this harassment of me, and I felt like

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Speaker 3: calling them out for it because as members of Congress,

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Speaker 3: particularly as senators, they're supposed to be like.

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Speaker 5: The more serious, deliberative body.

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Speaker 10: Right here's Josh Holly, and your priority is setting up

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Speaker 10: a board and hiring someone who has gone to TikTok

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Speaker 10: to talk about stopping speech she doesn't like, who has

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Speaker 10: mocked voters supporters of the last president. That has been

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Speaker 10: your priority. To say that your priorities are misplaced, I

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Speaker 10: think is a dramatic understatement. And the time has come,

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Speaker 10: I think, mister secretary, for you to resign.

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Speaker 3: And Josh Holly on July eighteenth, so two full months

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Speaker 3: after I had resigned to the day from DHS, he

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Speaker 3: brought me up in a hearing on drones. For some reason,

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Speaker 3: there was an acting assistant secretary from DHS who I

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Speaker 3: used to work with, who was there, and he spent

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Speaker 3: half of his time, half of his allotted time, questioning

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Speaker 3: her about my hiring two months after I had resigned,

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Speaker 3: rather than talking about you know, unmanned aerial vehicles.

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Speaker 5: Right. And so I was just.

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Speaker 3: Incensed by this because it matched with an uptick and

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Speaker 3: harassment I got. So I sent them a letter, I

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Speaker 3: posted it publicly, and both of them just doubled down

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Speaker 3: on it. Rather than saying, you know, we're sorry for

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Speaker 3: the harassment that you and your family are getting at

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Speaker 3: this like, you know, special time in your life. I

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Speaker 3: had a six week old at the time, right, We're

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Speaker 3: sorry for this harassment. We're going to condemn the people

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Speaker 3: who have been sending you threats. We're going to continue

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Speaker 3: our oversight duty as senators, but we're going to pull

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Speaker 3: back from like our focus on you. Instead, they both

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Speaker 3: doubled down. And so I think this is a really

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Speaker 3: sad kind of situation that we find ourselves in America,

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Speaker 3: where there are people who are again supposed to be

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Speaker 3: setting the tone and example for the way our discourse

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Speaker 3: works who are tacitly, if not overtly and deliberately engaging

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Speaker 3: in harassment campaigns against people on the other side. These

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Speaker 3: things have life or death consequences. And I'm not the

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Speaker 3: only one to have gone through this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: We see senators in the GOP endorsing like libs of

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Speaker 3: TikTok or whatever, and those people are literally like engaging

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Speaker 3: in stochastic terrorism campaigns that are about.

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Speaker 5: To bubble over into real life.

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Speaker 3: Right, They're going to have real life consequences for trans

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Speaker 3: people and in some cases already have. We're just in

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Speaker 3: this really precarious situation and I feel like we need

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Speaker 3: some accountability and it's just not happening.

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Speaker 5: I don't know what it's going to take.

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Speaker 3: We've gone through a pandemic that's had public safety consequences

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Speaker 3: for the nation. We've gone through, you know, in an surrection,

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Speaker 3: we've gone through protests that have been based on to

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Speaker 3: some degree disinformation where that have bubble up into clashes

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Speaker 3: that have killed people.

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Speaker 5: And thinking of Kenosha, right.

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Speaker 3: And like, what's it going to take before we come

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Speaker 3: to our senses and either elect people who care about

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Speaker 3: the truth or like start to have some laws governing

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Speaker 3: what you say online the same.

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Speaker 5: Way that we do on the street.

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Speaker 3: I think people forget that free speech in America is

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Speaker 3: not absolute, right, Like, if people were saying these things

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Speaker 3: to me or to anybody who gets harassed online on

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Speaker 3: the street, you'd be able to get out of a

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Speaker 3: restraining order out on them, you'd be able to call

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Speaker 3: the cops. But the Internet is like this ungoverned and

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Speaker 3: ungovernable place, and I think that's that's kind of scary,

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Speaker 3: given how much we live our lives on the internet

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Speaker 3: these days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think about this all the time

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Speaker 1: of like what is it going to take? What do

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Speaker 1: you think is the answer to that question, Like do

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Speaker 1: you think that anything would rise to the level where

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Speaker 1: people will be like, gee, we need to do something.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 3: I thought that maybe we were having that call to

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Speaker 3: action moment last fall when Francis Hogan released her whistleblower

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Speaker 3: documents and there were these, you know, series of hearings

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Speaker 3: on the Hill and people were so shocked about everything

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Speaker 3: that she was saying that it was confirmed. You know,

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Speaker 3: this is what was happening to children, This is what

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Speaker 3: was happening to different populations around the world.

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Speaker 5: This was what was.

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Speaker 3: Happening to women, and then you know that just kind

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Speaker 3: of fizzled out, like maybe it moved the needle. Maybe

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Speaker 3: maybe senators now and members of the House are a

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Speaker 3: little bit.

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Speaker 5: More wise to what was being said.

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Speaker 3: And she did come from a non partisan perspective, which

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Speaker 3: I think was important to kind of diffuse the polarization

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Speaker 3: of this debate, which shouldn't be polarized at all. Right,

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Speaker 3: this is not a polarization issue. This affects human beings,

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Speaker 3: that affects our democracy, no matter what political party are from.

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Speaker 3: But there doesn't seem to have been kind of that

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Speaker 3: momentum filled there. And I hope that we can pick

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Speaker 3: that back up, But after my experience, I'm pretty pessimistic, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: it is really depressing to me that millions, literally millions

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Speaker 3: of my fellow Americans have come into contact with me

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Speaker 3: and been told to hate me because I'm young, female

439
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 3: and had the goal to take a job in my

440
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 3: area of expertise trying to help my country.

441
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,239
Speaker 5: Right, I was not motivated.

442
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,479
Speaker 3: By politics and taking that job, And in fact, prior

443
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 3: to everything that happened to me, I used to say

444
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 3: I would take a job working for a reasonable Republican

445
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 3: who wanted to work on the issues that I wanted

446
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 3: to work on, whether they were, you know, Russia or

447
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 3: something about disinformation online.

448
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 5: I don't think I could say.

449
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 3: That anymore with a straight face, right, because of the

450
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 3: lengths they went to ruin my life, and that was deliberate, right.

451
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 3: You said something about smear campaigns before it was explicit

452
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 3: that people were saying, we want to make her toxic

453
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 3: to the bidenmane, and I just think that's that's really

454
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 3: it's un American, frankly. So I don't know what the

455
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 3: answer is to your question, bridget I think I think

456
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 3: we're in a really bad situation, and I don't know

457
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 3: what it's going to take, and I.

458
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 5: Fear what it's going to take to wake everybody up.

459
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: Do you think that you would have gotten the same

460
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: level of hate and targeted violence like online violence against

461
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: you had you been a man?

462
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 4: No, I think not at all. I have to imagine no.

463
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 3: No, right, because like, first of all, even I think

464
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 3: Tucker Carlson even said something point blank like it's it's

465
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 3: like Taylor Lorenz and the Nina Jankwitz is of the

466
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 3: world that I hate the most, like educated white women

467
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 3: who think that they educated young white women who think

468
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 3: that they can tell us what to do or something

469
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 3: like that, And it's like, I'm not telling you what

470
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 3: to do, but the fact that I exist and that

471
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: I'm like putting myself into a sphere that you existed

472
00:23:58,400 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 3: is what bothers you, right.

473
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 5: So no, there's that part to it.

474
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 3: And then the fact that I'm I was young and

475
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 3: also pregnant, Like people talked about my my family.

476
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 5: Status constantly on Fox.

477
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 3: They said things very famously about like how could Biden

478
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: hire her when she's about to go on maternity leave?

479
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 3: And it's like, because it's against the law to discriminate

480
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 3: against some money because of their their their parental status,

481
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 3: not to mention that.

482
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 5: Like there was the opposite.

483
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: Side of the coin, with people saying like how could

484
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 3: anyone impregnate her? Or like I bet she's infertile after

485
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 3: this one, Like it was just like why.

486
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 5: Is this even something that anybody's talking about?

487
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 3: And men absolutely never get that stuff, and in fact,

488
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: if they're found to be cheating or philandering, like they're

489
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 3: celebrated for that. And plus you know, there was the

490
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 3: stuff about my looks and weight gain during pregnancy. Men

491
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 3: were like enlarging pictures of my chin, which had some

492
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 3: pregnancy acneonic.

493
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 5: God forbid, it's not something you can really control.

494
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: They were talking about my weight gain, like then after

495
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 3: I gave birth and the New York Times took a

496
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: picture of me for an article they did. The first

497
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 3: thing a couple of guys said was that I had

498
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: big boobs, and it was.

499
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 5: Like, well, yeah, I'm breastfeeding right now. One guy actually was.

500
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: Like, imagine if what she did with those boobs was

501
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: I think they used a different word obviously, was feed

502
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 3: children instead of spread lies.

503
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 5: And it's like, oh, funny, you should mention that. But

504
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 5: it's just like a man would never write.

505
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 3: And they say all the time, oh, we get the

506
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 3: same sort of stuff, and it's like, no, like the

507
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 3: worst sort of sexualized something that somebody could call you

508
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 3: as a dick, right, and that's not so bad. It's

509
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 3: certainly not calling you Joe Biden's cum dumpster, which is

510
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 3: one of the many things that people have said to me.

511
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so upsetting.

512
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: And I also feel like when it comes to women,

513
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: when women are harassed, it's not just them, it's their partner,

514
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: it's their mom, it's their kids. It's it's her family

515
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: and the people around her, And so what.

516
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 4: Adds this extra layer of.

517
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's something you have to think

518
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: about where it's like, well, do I really want to

519
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: engage in like this public line up work because I

520
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: don't want my partner to be harassed, don't want my

521
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: kids to be targeted.

522
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred percent.

523
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: And a lot of the women that I've interviewed in

524
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 3: the course of my research for my book, as well

525
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 3: as the research I've done on women in politics, they

526
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 3: bring that up a lot, especially women of color. So

527
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: for women of color, often what will happen is they'll

528
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: get docks more frequently than white women, or their families

529
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: will be threatened. So one woman in a focus group

530
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: that I did was, I mean, this just really stuck

531
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 3: with me.

532
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 5: She said, you know, we don't.

533
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 3: We will often get messages that say, oh, we don't.

534
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 3: We hope your son doesn't end up like Trayvon Martin or.

535
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 5: Things like that.

536
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 3: And it's just like, I mean, especially as a mom,

537
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: but I hope that that resonates with anybody, Like it's

538
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: clearly a threat.

539
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 5: Number one and two, Like, what a horrible thing to say.

540
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 3: It's just like layers of on layers of intersectional abuse,

541
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 3: and that's where the platforms I think really fall short.

542
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 3: They'll see something like that and AI certainly won't understand

543
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: the intent behind that.

544
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 5: And even if you write a little note.

545
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 3: To Twitter or to Facebook and say like, look at this,

546
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 3: this is racist, violent threat, they're not gonna take it

547
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 3: down because it's not. It doesn't say like explicitly I

548
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: want to come kill your son, or I hope someone

549
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: comes to kill your son.

550
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 10: And.

551
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:38,239
Speaker 5: I don't know.

552
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: I mean, I think we have a long way to

553
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: go there, and certainly as women, as you say, it's

554
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 3: not just us, it's our families. It's like I had

555
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 3: to call up, you know, my brother who shares a

556
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: last name with me, and hope and say, you know,

557
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 3: I hope that the boys, your sons have their social

558
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 3: media profiles locked down. Like what a heartbreaking conversation to

559
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 3: have to have with a bunch of teenageers who probably

560
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 3: want to do the exact exact opposite. You know.

561
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: More, after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

562
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: I keep reading these articles about how historic numbers of

563
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: women and women of color and black women are running

564
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: for office, which is great but I know the reality

565
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: is that they have to have this extra layer of consideration,

566
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: not to mention extra expense of thinking about you know,

567
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: online and digital security in these ways and in real

568
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: life security in these ways.

569
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 4: And it really do you feel like we're in a

570
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 4: situation where that is just the cost of wanting to.

571
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: Be in public service for these folks, Like we're just like,

572
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: oh yeah, like you have to factor that in when

573
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: you if you want to run for office or be

574
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: a pub but you're really dingaged in civic life and

575
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: civic discourse.

576
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it is the cost, but it absolutely should not

577
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 3: be the cost.

578
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 5: That should not be normal.

579
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: We shouldn't just roll over and say if you're a

580
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 3: woman or a woman of color, or disabled woman or

581
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: a trans woman in politics that were in public life

582
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: written large, that you have to spend all this extra money.

583
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: I mean, let me just list a couple of the

584
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: things that I pay for. I have an anti dooxing

585
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: service that scrubs my personal information from the Internet and

586
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: that of my family.

587
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 5: That's a couple hundred dollars a year.

588
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: I have When we had to upgrade our home security

589
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: after everything happened, because again we were doxed. If we

590
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: ever decide to move from the house that got doxed,

591
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 3: we'll have to probably pay a lawyer to put our

592
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 3: home in.

593
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 5: A trust so that that doesn't happen again. Let's see.

594
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: I also pay for block Party, which if your listeners

595
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: haven't it is a really good tool for basically anybody

596
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 3: dealing with online abuse. It will auto mute people interacting

597
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: with you, and you can have kind of different levels

598
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: of sensitivity for the replies that you want to get through.

599
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: On Twitter, you can also block people if they've liked

600
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: or retweeted in abusive or threatening tweets.

601
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 5: So as a result of using.

602
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: Block party, I've I've blocked cool White a few people

603
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: because I don't want to. I don't frankly want to

604
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: interact with anybody who thinks it's funny to like delight

605
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: in one of the worst things ever happening to me. So,

606
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 3: I mean, already, that's like a couple hundred dollars a year,

607
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: and for freelance journalists or for people who you know

608
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 3: are working in nonprofit jobs or things like that. Even

609
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: government jobs, like the government certainly did not compensate me

610
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: enough for what I went through.

611
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 5: Let's just say.

612
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 3: Oh, and you know, I am lucky that I was

613
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: able to have enough savings to cover that stuff. But

614
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 3: there was a time not so long ago, a couple

615
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 3: of years ago, before my first book came out, where

616
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: like I wasn't paying taxes because I wasn't making enough

617
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 3: profit to be paying taxes, you know.

618
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 5: So it's it's real.

619
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: Uh, the cost is real, and it is not fair,

620
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 3: and we need to make sure that, especially in journalism,

621
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 3: that when freelancers are being hired, that they're being compensated adequately,

622
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 3: and that they're covered legally by the publishers that they're

623
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 3: working for. That you know, any institution, be a academic, government, nonprofit,

624
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: et cetera, they're covering their employees as well.

625
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 5: Because the way that you.

626
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: Feel safe to speak up is knowing that people have

627
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: got your back, and they've got your back in a

628
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 3: material way.

629
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 5: Not just like you know, a philosophical way, like.

630
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 6: Of course we of course we should uh support your

631
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 6: right to a free speech, but when push comes to shove,

632
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 6: they're not gonna you know, pay for you to relocate

633
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 6: if you need to, or pay for a lawyer.

634
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 5: All that stuff is super super important.

635
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's something I see a lot of like particularly

636
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: in newsrooms where you know, if a young woman journalist

637
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: is being targeted or threatened.

638
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 4: I don't know.

639
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: I think that we're just starting to have a conversation

640
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: about how newsrooms can be supportive. But I think for

641
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: a long time it was just like good luck. And

642
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: also don't talk about it publicly because it will make

643
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: us look bad. So just suffer in silence and be

644
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: isolated and get no support and turn that shame inward

645
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: and we will continue.

646
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 4: To function business as usual.

647
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: Like I think that, like what you said about cost

648
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: material cost is such a good point. And I think

649
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: back to like when I was a freelance journalist. I

650
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: made no money, right, I was like really barely getting by,

651
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: like scraping by, and to be expected to shoulder this

652
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: burden that my male white colleagues will never have to shoulder.

653
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: It's just not fair. It's not equitable.

654
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 5: No, no, not at all.

655
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: And like then on the government side too, going back

656
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: to the whole thing about like Biden, you know, making

657
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 3: it a commendable effort to hire people of color and

658
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 3: women into his administration. I think, and I've said this

659
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 3: to people in the administration since this happened to me, like,

660
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: not only do you need to be prepared to stick

661
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: up for those people, but you.

662
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 5: There's probably some conversation that you need.

663
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: To have with some people a certain level or above

664
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: saying like, Okay, here's the types of things that might

665
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: happen to you, Like let's make sure that you are protected.

666
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: Let's make sure that you can put in a registration

667
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 3: or a like deregistration request to the county to get

668
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 3: your name off of the documents for your house because

669
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: you're a public official. Now, like yes, in my mind,

670
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 3: did that think? Did that cross my mind as like

671
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: something that might happen? Sort of, I hoped that it wouldn't.

672
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: I didn't think it was going to be as bad

673
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 3: that as it was. But like probably everybody in our

674
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: polarized environment who's going into government should get at that

675
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 3: kind of council, anybody going into public service, not just

676
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: at the federal level. I mean, look what's happening to

677
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 3: election workers, right. It's the sad truth of the time

678
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: that we live in and the tactics that people are

679
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 3: using to try to get their way. But it takes

680
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 3: a toll, and like without loved ones, without friends who

681
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 3: have been helping me go through my replies and like

682
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: helping me keep track of the mentions of me on

683
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 3: alternative news streams and things like that. I mean, I

684
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 3: don't know what I would have done, probably just like

685
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 3: completely retreated from the online space. And that's exactly what

686
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: it's meant to do, right, It's meant to push us out,

687
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: to silence us, and I'm not going.

688
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 5: To let that happen. I'm glad there are people around

689
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 5: me who don't want that to happen to me. But

690
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 5: not everybody has that. Not everybody has.

691
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 3: That monetary psychological support that is so critical to getting

692
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 3: through these difficult times, and they're happening to more and

693
00:34:58,920 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 3: more people.

694
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: It's great to want to elect women, support women, hire women,

695
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: but you also need to be honest about what those

696
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: women will face and have an understanding of what you're

697
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: going to do to create the conditions for that woman

698
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 1: to thrive, because it can't just be like, yeah, support

699
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: black women, yes, like more women this and that, but

700
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: then like, once they get to the place that you

701
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: champion them to get to, they are on their own

702
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: for this highly charged attacks that they will face because

703
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: they got to this position that you said that you

704
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: wanted them to be in, Like it has to be

705
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: a fuller conversation about what it looks like.

706
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and you know, I I don't know what I.

707
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 3: Say this a lot like in future positions, whether they're

708
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: in public service or not, Like when I'm being interviewed, what.

709
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 5: Will I say? Like will I be like?

710
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 3: And if X, Y, and Z happens, what are you

711
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 3: guys going to do? Like I feel like I'm going

712
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 3: to run this trust deficit for the rest of my life.

713
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 3: And I don't know that a lot of organizations are

714
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: going to have a good answer. But like in good conscience,

715
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 3: go into that sort of environment if I don't feel

716
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 3: either like I've got somebody supporting me or a group

717
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: of people supporting me, or am I going to have

718
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: the authority to be able to make the decisions that

719
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 3: will create those like support systems for other people?

720
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 5: I don't know.

721
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 3: And it's hard for me also to encourage young women

722
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 3: to go into public service after what happened to me.

723
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 3: I've been giving them the advice like, if you want

724
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 3: to do it, you should do it, but just recognize

725
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 3: what's in the realm of possibility.

726
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, so speaking of that, you know, the book How

727
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: to Be a Woman Online. What advice do you have

728
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: for women who are just trying to exist on the internet.

729
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned earlier in our interview that you

730
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: were really attacked for being a woman who has lived

731
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: your life and had social media the way that we

732
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: all have, and they created a cost for that. They

733
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: dinged you for doing something that in twenty twenty two

734
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: we all do. And so I guess my question is, like,

735
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: what kind of advice do you give for women listening

736
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: who want to participate in civic and public life are

737
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: also on women online?

738
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 4: You know?

739
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 2: What do you say?

740
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a really delicate balance.

741
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 3: So I've interviewed people who run the gamut of like

742
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: they've kind of kept a lot of their personal stuff

743
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 3: off the internet, to like people like me who are

744
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 3: super super online. Right, And I still have no regrets,

745
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: Like I again that TikTok video, still not embarrassed of

746
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: it to this day. The things that people were making

747
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 3: fun of it.

748
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: Did numbers like You're like kind of prolific on TikTok.

749
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 5: I had to log it down.

750
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: Now I don't even do it anymore, But I'm trying

751
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 3: to get into Instagram reels.

752
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 5: It's hard. It's hard for a millennial like me. I'm like,

753
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 5: what is this? But you know, like.

754
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 3: I don't regret any of it, but I also recognize

755
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: that it's not for everybody, and so I think there's

756
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: a delicate balance.

757
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 5: You have to draw that line for yourself.

758
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 3: The thing that I encourage everybody to do is, no

759
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 3: matter how you're gonna interact online, to understand what's going

760
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: to keep you safe tech wise and opsec wise. So like,

761
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: don't post pictures of you in front of your house

762
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 3: or like at the bar you frequent, right Like, it

763
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: is so easy for bad actors to geolocate you. Look

764
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: what happened to Keffle's where she was docks a second time,

765
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: just based on the pattern of the hotel sheets to

766
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: the hotel she had fled to with her cat, Right Like,

767
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 3: we have to be extraordinarily careful. But if you're posting

768
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: things not in real time, like have a little bit

769
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 3: of a lag, If you're not posting from the same

770
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 3: location and giving away like clues to your pattern of life,

771
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: that's that's much better online practice for pictures and videos

772
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 3: and things like that. When it comes to it, security

773
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: just a couple of easy fixes that are kind of

774
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 3: set it and forget it for everybody. Make sure you

775
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: know you're using two factor authentication, complex passwords, and a

776
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 3: password manager. If you're traveling to dangerous countries like authoritarian countries,

777
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 3: basically you'll probably want to have like a burner phone

778
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 3: or a burner laptop to make sure that your comms

779
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 3: are secure.

780
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 5: Using a VPN is a good idea.

781
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: When you're on you know, more open Wi Fi and

782
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: on your home network. Things like that I think are

783
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 3: just really important for people who might be targets of

784
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 3: hacking or other kind of cyber harassment issues from doxing

785
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 3: to cyber stocking. All of that's super important for you

786
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 3: to keep in mind. And that knowing that I have

787
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: that extra layer of security like makes me feel more

788
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: empowered to speak out. And then beyond that, cultivating a

789
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 3: network of people who get what you do and who

790
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: you can go to when the going gets tough, and

791
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: that's harder than it seems. The first time I dealt

792
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 3: with online harassment, which admittedly was nothing compared to what

793
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 3: I went through this spring, a lot of my friends

794
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 3: and family didn't get it right, Like they were like, ah,

795
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 3: just ignore the trolls, don't feed the trolls, don't go

796
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 3: on Twitter. And I'm like, but my life and my

797
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 3: work is on Twitter, right, You're basically asking.

798
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 5: Me to not work and not put myself out there.

799
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 3: And I think once they understood that, then I had

800
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 3: a little bit more support. But frankly, the people that

801
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 3: I rely on most when this stuff is going on

802
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 3: are the super online writers and folks who are kind

803
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 3: of in my sphere that understand how this stuff works

804
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 3: and so cultivate that.

805
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 5: Community for yourself. I think that's.

806
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 3: Paramount, frankly, and I hope that everybody's able to do it.

807
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 3: And if you ever need anything, you know, shout out,

808
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 3: reach out. I'm happy to help listeners. And of course

809
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: you bridget however, And I know you had written me

810
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 3: a note when the shit was going down, and I

811
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 3: appreciated that.

812
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 5: That stuff goes a long way.

813
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: So if you see everybody else going through stuff, be

814
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: an active online bystander, you know, report stuff, send them

815
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: a note of solidarity.

816
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 5: All of it matters.

817
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's such good advice because I think

818
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: these kinds of attacks, they are meant to make the

819
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 1: person feel isolated, and so just knowing that, like I'm

820
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: not isolated. People see what's happening to me and they

821
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: support me is so key and it's interesting. I was

822
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: at this gathering for people who work in the conspiracy

823
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: theory space, and one of the questions that they asked

824
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: early on was, you know, what are some of the

825
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: particulars of doing this work?

826
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 4: And almost everybody.

827
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: Said some version of my partner, my friends don't really

828
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 1: get what I do, and so I am carrying around

829
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: a lot of like very specific baggage that the people

830
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: around me can't even necessarily really unpack, understand or even

831
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: really see. And I really felt that it was like, yeah,

832
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: you are dealing with some particular stuff that is so

833
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: specific and can be so heavy and ugly and hard,

834
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: and you're sometimes just dealing with it in a way

835
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: that feels like you're alone.

836
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even when people do reach out, you know,

837
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: and this is not their fault at all, but like

838
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 3: still to this day, people will say to me, you know,

839
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry for what you're what you went through,

840
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 3: or like back when it was all happening, they'd be like,

841
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 3: is there anything I can do, And like the answer

842
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 3: is no. For the most part, Like with the exception

843
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 3: of your close friends just like coming by with food

844
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 3: and like trying to take you out of it watching

845
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 3: some trashy TV or something like that. Like there's not

846
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: much that people can really do besides listen, and even

847
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: then you're talking to them about it, and all they

848
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: can do is like not and pat you on the

849
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 3: back unless they've gone through it too. And so again

850
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 3: that's why those very specific networks of super online people

851
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: were really important to me when the when it was

852
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 3: all kind of happening. But that also brings me to

853
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 3: another important point, which is therapy is so important. Without

854
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: my therapist, I definitely would be kind of lost, and

855
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 3: she has done the really important kind of reminding me that,

856
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 3: like what you went through is not normal, and it's

857
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: okay to still feel kind of shitty about it, and

858
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 3: no one's expecting you to have recovered from it already,

859
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 3: Like you're still allowed to have feelings about it and

860
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 3: be mad about it and be sad about it and frustrated.

861
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 3: And that's been really important. And I have a whole

862
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: section in my book about like the role that that

863
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 3: has played. Again even before the worst harassment that I've

864
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: dealt with, and some resources for folks who maybe can't

865
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 3: afford therapy because it is the way our insurance system

866
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 3: works here is totally stupid and like paying out of

867
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 3: pocket is ridiculous and difficult. But if your insurance doesn't

868
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: cover it, there are options for you. If you're on

869
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 3: a campus, A lot of universities have good mental health services.

870
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 3: A lot of states also have either groups that you

871
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: can go to or like low cost therapists you can access,

872
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 3: and then a lot of therapists have sliding scale fees

873
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 3: as well, so that folks who are on lower income

874
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 3: can can can access those services. And it's I think

875
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 3: it's really important, and there's this stigma around accessing mental

876
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: health services, but push yourself to to get over that

877
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 3: that hurdle because it's a great resource.

878
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: To have, absolutely And I guess that brings me to

879
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: one of my last questions of like you deal You've

880
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: dealt with.

881
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 4: A lot, You deal with a lot. What keeps you like?

882
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: What brings you joy? What makes you happy? How do

883
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: you how do you reconnect with Nina and recharge?

884
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 4: Like what what? What does that cups for you?

885
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 3: That's a hard one because my life has changed so

886
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 3: substantively since all This happened like literally for weeks, three

887
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: weeks before I gave birth, as like when I resigned

888
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: from the government. So I'm a totally different person, not

889
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: just because of like my entire life outlook changing, but

890
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 3: because I'm a mom now, so like hanging out with

891
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: my kid, love that and it truly is a life

892
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 3: changing experience to like be the sole.

893
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 5: Source of food and.

894
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,879
Speaker 3: Like protector of another human being. I'm really lucky to have,

895
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 3: you know, a great husband who is an amazing dad

896
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 3: and has been an amazing partner through like something he

897
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 3: definitely did not sign up for when we got married

898
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 3: ten years ago, that is for sure.

899
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 5: So spending time with them has been great.

900
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 3: Connecting with nature so I love hiking, and I've just

901
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 3: started getting back to hiking post pregnancy, so getting back

902
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 3: outdoors has been great. Travel really kind of fills my

903
00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 3: cup and like experiencing different perspectives. I'm also a huge

904
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 3: music fan and theater fan, and that has been somewhat

905
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 3: dampened during the pandemic because of large gatherings, and I

906
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 3: haven't been able to do a show since since pre

907
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 3: pandemic and probably won't happen for a while now that

908
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 3: I have a young kid, but you know, enjoying the arts,

909
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: experiencing that connecting with other people that way, I think

910
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 3: is something that's so special. And that's also you know,

911
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 3: not to bring it back to the abuse and make

912
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 3: it sad, but that's one of the things that's most

913
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 3: peculiar about like the abuse against me, people saying like, ah,

914
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 3: she's a theater kid, as if like I'm sorry, is

915
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 3: that a crime? Like Also, musical theater is one of

916
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 3: our like uniquely American exports, right, like it's it's a

917
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 3: way that America contributes to.

918
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 5: Culture around the world.

919
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 3: And I don't know, how are these people seriously telling

920
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 3: me they've never enjoyed a musical in their life if so,

921
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 3: like whatever, like.

922
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: Oh, musical theater kids like like theater kids, the world

923
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: go around. If we didn't have theater kids, it wouldn't

924
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: be joy in the world. Thank God for like enthusiastic

925
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 1: like young people who enthusiastically enjoy things and make things.

926
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 5: And you know what, like.

927
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 11: It's it's I'm tired of this like narrative that it's

928
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 11: uncool to be happy or enthusiastic about something like yeah,

929
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 11: I'm a nerd and I'm like totally okay with that.

930
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 3: We should all wear that proudly. Some people nerd out

931
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 3: about cars. I nerd out about lyrics from musicals and

932
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 3: and music, and like, you know, every to each their own.

933
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: That's the beautiful thing about America, right And so anyway,

934
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: I've gone off on a tangent now.

935
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 5: But those are the things that that keep me, keep

936
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 5: me happy.

937
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 3: Also, like I do identify with what Hillary Clinton said

938
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 3: in about the worst times of her life, where she

939
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 3: just she focused on the work. And so I have

940
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 3: been absolutely wholeheartedly, probably too much, throwing myself into the

941
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 3: world since I've been back from maternity leave, and I'm

942
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 3: really committed to building a better Internet, whether that's an

943
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 3: Internet free from disinformation coming from Russia or an Internet

944
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 3: that's free from nasty abuse coming from right and frankly

945
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 3: some far left wing men on the internet.

946
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 4: Well, I'm so grateful that we have you in this work.

947
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 4: I'm glad that you seem.

948
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: Like you're doing that.

949
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: You've got that, You've got your people, you've got your community,

950
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: because the Lord knows we need you especially right now.

951
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 5: Well, thank you, Bridget.

952
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 3: You know, I think you got me on a slightly

953
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 3: more optimistic sunny day.

954
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 5: There are definitely days where I'm.

955
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 3: Dropping f bombs left and right and hate everyone, but no,

956
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 3: I'm here. And my message to everybody who's going through

957
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 3: this or might go through this at some point is like,

958
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 3: don't give one inch.

959
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 5: Back, and I'm not giving an inch. I'm going to

960
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 5: go a mile ahead.

961
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: Though Nina filed her defamation lawsuit against Fox News last Wednesday,

962
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: she can't get back what they took from her, but

963
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: maybe her lawsuit and others like it will change the

964
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: math for big networks that traffic and lies and disinformation.

965
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the first episode of Present Future,

966
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: brought to you by There No Girls on the Internet.

967
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: Next week, I'll be interviewing author, activist, and og Twitter

968
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: personality Mickey Kendall, who built her platform on the early

969
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: days of Twitter. We talk about what it was like

970
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: back then, how it changed, and where she sees the

971
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: Twitter community going in the future. And I have to

972
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: make one more plug for the Patreon. I'm really excited

973
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: to use it as a way to connect with all

974
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: of you and to share exclusive interviews and writings with

975
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: the patrons who support the show. Just go to patreon

976
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: dot com and search for there or No Girls on

977
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: the Internet, and as always, I would love to hear

978
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: from you at Hello at tangoti dot com. Let us

979
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: know what you thought of today's episode and what kind

980
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: of stories that you'd like to hear during the rest

981
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: of this season as we investigate this weird present future.

982
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

983
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: me Ridget Codds. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed

984
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.

985
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato

986
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

987
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us

988
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out

989
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.