1 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: for joining me for another special TVG Library episode. We'll 12 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. 13 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: Which friend are you? And your sister circle? Are you 14 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: the wallflower, the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader? Take 15 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: the quiz at Sisterhoodheels dot com slash quiz to find out, 16 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: and then make sure to grab your copy of Sisterhood 17 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: Heels to find out more about how you can be 18 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: a better friend and how your circle can do a 19 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: better job of supporting you. Order yours today at Sisterhoodheels 20 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: dot com. We're back this week to provide you with 21 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: another page turning addition to your bookshelf, Grab your reading glasses, 22 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: find somewhere cozy, and get into this week's TBG Library pic. 23 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: Dances by Nicole Cuffey. Dances follow cc Cordell, a twitting 24 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: two year old ballet dancer who is catapulted into celebrity 25 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,279 Speaker 1: when she's promoted to principal at the New York City Ballet. 26 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: Even as she celebrates the achievement of a lifelong dream, 27 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: she's haunted by the feeling that she doesn't belong and 28 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: has to work to unravel the loose threads of a 29 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: complicated family past. Today, I'm joined by Nichole to dive 30 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: into the ways in which she weaved parts of her 31 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: own life into the book, the double consciousness experienced by 32 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: black writers impacted by the white gays, and how the 33 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: book tackles broader themes through the lens of ballet. If 34 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share 35 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in 36 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: Session or join us in the Sister Circle to talk 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at community 38 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank 39 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me to day, Nicole. 40 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me very excited. 41 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: To chat with you. So in nineteen eighty one, Tony 42 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: Morrison famously said, if there's a book that you want 43 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: to read but it hasn't been written yet, then you 44 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: must write it. Could you tell us a little bit 45 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: about your personal experiences with dance and your quest for 46 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: literature that accurately portrays black girls experiences with the art form. 47 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that exact quote is why I wrote this book. 48 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 2: I was a black dancer, not professionally, but I've always 49 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: loved classical ballet, and in about twenty fifteen, I was 50 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: really craving an experience within the realm of fiction of 51 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: just immersing myself in the ballet world, and a book 52 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 2: about a black ballerina at a national touring company in 53 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: fiction just really didn't exist at the time. And you know, 54 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: I remember really craving that reading experience for myself and 55 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: just very clearly remember the moment that that exact quote 56 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: popped into my head that I realized I was going 57 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 2: to have to write this book myself because it simply 58 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: didn't exist yet. So that's really where I started on 59 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: my writing journey with this book. 60 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: So let's talk about our main character, CC. How similar 61 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: is she to young Nicole? 62 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: Not super similar. Actually we have very different family lives. 63 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: And whereas CC's drive was for dance, my drive at 64 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: a young age was definitely not for dance. I was 65 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: in ballet as a little kid, and you know, when 66 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: I was a little kid, when I took on a 67 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 2: new hobby or a new interest, whether it be ballet 68 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: or piano or guitar, the kind of consistent theme for 69 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: me for a little while was that I just wanted 70 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: to be good at these things. I didn't want to 71 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 2: have to learn how to be good at these things. 72 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: So I did not have the level of commitment that 73 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 2: CC has from a young age. That took me a 74 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: little bit later to develop. But what I will say 75 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: that we do have in common from a young age 76 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: and to now is the things that I'm passionate about 77 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,119 Speaker 2: and the things that CC is passionate about. We are 78 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: focused and driven. So I did have a drive as 79 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 2: a little kid to be a writer of some sort, 80 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: and I think that's where we have a connection in 81 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: our personalities the most. But other than that, yeah, we're 82 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: not super similar. 83 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: So are there other things that you feel like you 84 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: weaved into the story based on your own upbringing and experiences. 85 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that a lot of CC's body 86 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: image stuff is definitely a shadow of my own body 87 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: image stuff. So a lot of her hyper awareness around 88 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: what she's eating, a lot of her hyper awareness around 89 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: what her body looks like and how her body may 90 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: change depending on what kind of mirror she's looking at. 91 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: I definitely borrowed from my own experiences as someone with 92 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: body dysmorphia and an eating disorder. CC's issues around body 93 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: image and food are not to the extent that mine are, 94 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: but I definitely did use some of my experience with 95 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: those things to inform CC's hypervigilance about her body and 96 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: how it fits into this classical ballet mold. 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: Another huge theme that we see in the book is family, 98 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: So we see more about her relationship with her brother, 99 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: who has a history of addictions. There's a bit of 100 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: a complicated mother daughter dynamic there. Can you talk a 101 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: little bit about how these relationships shape CC's world. 102 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, so. I always think of family as the 103 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: sort of training camp before you sort of enter into 104 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: the real world. So whatever your family dynamic may be 105 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: in however you may define family, those really early experiences 106 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 2: through certainly your formative years, but I think into young 107 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: adulthood as well, really establish how you're going to move 108 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: within the world. You can look at it, it's two 109 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: different ways. I think either the mold that you came 110 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: from your family may distort you somehow so that you 111 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: move through the world in a distorted fashion, or you 112 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 2: can look at it like that mold shapes you so 113 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: that you move through the world in a particular fashion 114 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: that is unique to you and that family dynamic that 115 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 2: you emerged from. So that is definitely true for CC. 116 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: I think in her case we have a good mix 117 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: of distortion and shaping happening. And so definitely the way 118 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: that she moves through the world and moves through her 119 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: experiences is very much colored throughout by those early experiences 120 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: with her mother and with her brother most notably. 121 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: And how would you say the role of double consciousness 122 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: really played a role in this book. Can you say 123 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: a little bit about how she reckons with her blackness 124 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: in the novel? 125 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, So I think this is something that probably 126 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: any black professional, especially maybe a black creative I say 127 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: that only because that's the experience I can speak to experiences, 128 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: this awareness of double consciousness as a concept and how 129 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: it impacts the way you act in the worlds that 130 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: you move through. So CC because she is in this 131 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: predominantly white, neoclassical ballet world, is in a hostile space 132 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: for black female bodies, and so at the same time, 133 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 2: she comes from this very sort of culturally black background. 134 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: She grows up in Bedstye, Brooklyn. Her mother is very 135 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: African American identified and is very interested in African American 136 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: advancement and black issues, and she really does have to 137 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: navigate both of these worlds simultaneously. She has to know 138 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: how to exist in a culturally black space, but she 139 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: also has to know how to exist as a black 140 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: person in a culturally white in terms of what whiteness 141 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: has become under the influence of American colonialism. So she 142 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: does have to understand herself as herself. And I think 143 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: that a lot of black people have this experience where 144 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: they understand themselves as certainly informed by cultural blackness, but 145 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: there's a sense of self that is removed from that 146 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: political identity of blackness, and it's just who you are 147 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: as an individual as a person, but because of our 148 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: marginalized status, we also have to understand ourselves within the 149 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: context of a white gaze. So we have to know 150 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: who we are to a predominantly white and therefore predominantly 151 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: somewhat hostile world. And so Ceci does this all the time. 152 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 2: She understands who she is as an artist and what 153 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 2: she wants to be as an artist. But because especially 154 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: now that she's promoted and she's been catapulted into the 155 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: public eye as a black figure, she has to understand 156 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: who she is not only within the context of the 157 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: larger white gaze, but also in the context of the 158 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: black gazes of the little dancers who are looking up 159 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: to her because of her position within this historically white world. 160 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: So she almost has a triple consciousness in that sense. 161 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: She has to understand herself as herself. She has to 162 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: understand herself within the context of this hostile white gaze, 163 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: and she also has to understand herself within the context 164 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: of the black gays as a figurehead for the black community. 165 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: I would imagine, Nicole, that some of this is familiar 166 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: from your own life. And I'm always curious about writers 167 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: writing about things that maybe you know are similar to 168 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: real experiences they've had. Can you just talk a little 169 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: bit about that. 170 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I think it's been highlighted to me even 171 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: more lately now that this book has been published, and 172 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: I've been thinking about how I talk about blackness in 173 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: my own writing and how I'm positioned as a writer 174 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 2: but also as a black writer within a genre of 175 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: literary fiction that historically has been treated as a white genre, 176 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: even though there are plenty mentioned one Tony Morrison is 177 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: I think one of the greatest American writers in American history, 178 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: and yet she for a lot of her career was 179 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: pigeonholed into this genre called African American literature as though 180 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 2: it's somehow separate from the larger American canon of writing. 181 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: So definitely, that's always something that I've thought about as 182 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: I've been working on my career as a writer, wanting 183 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: to be understood as a writer as an artist first, 184 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: but also understanding that I am not going to and 185 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: to a certain extent when it wants to escape that 186 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: classification of a black writer. I don't want to escape 187 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: that classification because I am a black writer and culturally 188 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: that's important to me. But at the same time. I 189 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 2: wouldn't want my work to be pigeonholed or somehow considered 190 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: outside of American experience or not for anybody but black folk, 191 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 2: because it features black characters and I am a black 192 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: person who's doing the writing. So definitely, I've always thought 193 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: about that as an artist myself, like, how can I 194 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 2: focus on my craft focused on being the kind of 195 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 2: voice I want to be, while also recognizing that if 196 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to have anybody read my work, there is 197 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: a certain level of responsibility to cultural blackness that I 198 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 2: need to keep in mind and to have an understanding 199 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: of how my work resonates within a larger white gaze. 200 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I appreciate you sharing it. So 201 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: there was so much beautiful writing in the book. What 202 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: one beautiful statement you made was it is Ballet that 203 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: chose me, but I chose it back. And sometimes I 204 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: wonder if it wasn't in part, a small act of 205 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: rebellion as a black ballerina, what would you say that 206 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: CC is rebelling against the. 207 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: Idea that black bodies are not classical, specifically black female bodies. 208 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: I think that it's still happening today that a lot 209 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: of young black girls are being funneled out of classical 210 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: and neoclassical ballet because their teachers are telling them that 211 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 2: their bodies are not the right shape for this art form, 212 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: that because they have hips or because they have curves, 213 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: that they'd be better off going into African dance or 214 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: modern dance, and that the classical neoclaslassical world is not 215 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 2: for them. Cecy gets told that early on in her 216 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: career by the very teacher who tells her that she 217 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: does have a career as a dancer, later goes on 218 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: to tell her, yeah, but not a classical neoclassical dancer, 219 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: because that your body's not right for that. And I 220 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: was not told this personally because I was not trying 221 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: to be a professional dancer at a young age. I 222 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: know professional black dancers who are now dancing professionally in 223 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 2: the classical neoclassical spaces who were told that when they 224 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: were young dancers and had to do something with it, 225 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: and had to have the wherewithal as a very young 226 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: person to ignore it, which is hard when you're a 227 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: child because you don't typically as a child to have 228 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: those kind of defenses yet, so it almost requires a 229 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: young girl of color to be exceptional to even have 230 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: a chance in this world, in the way that it 231 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: does not require a young white girl to be exceptional 232 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: to even have a chance. You have to be exceptional 233 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: in terms of talent and in terms of physical capability, certainly, 234 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: no matter what your skin tone is. But the mental 235 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: fortitude that you have to have as a young black 236 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: dancer is much more elevated than the mental fortitude which 237 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: you do need to have, but that you have to 238 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 2: have as a white dancer, just because you are much 239 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 2: more likely to have people telling you that simply by 240 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: dint of the way you're shaped, you cannot make it 241 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: in this world. Even if you're not shaped that way yet, 242 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: you may not have gone through puberty, They're just going 243 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: to tell you that because you're black, well you're going 244 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: to have a black woman's body, as though we all 245 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: have the same body, and therefore you will not be 246 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: right for classical and neoclassical ballet. So definitely, there is 247 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: this sense of rebellion that people are going to tell 248 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: me that people are going to think that, but I 249 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: am going to prove them wrong. I'm going to be classical. 250 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to be beautiful and delicate and light on 251 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: the stage. Even if because of the color of my skin, 252 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: people are less likely to see me that way, And 253 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: we still see it oftentimes in the classical neoclassical ballet worlds, 254 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: where black dancers who are dancing with classical and neoclassical companies, 255 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: who do look like professional ballerinas and who have all 256 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: the strength and grace that any white dancer has, the 257 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: critics are still treating them as though their bodies are 258 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: all wrong for the art form that they are helping 259 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: to evolve and perfect. 260 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: You mentioned this a little bit when you talked about 261 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: the kind of triple consciousness that Cec almost needed to possess. 262 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: But there are parts of the book where Cec is 263 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: portrayed to not understand how influential she is to the 264 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: younger dancers. Can you talk a little bit more about that, 265 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: and do you think she was struggling with imposter syndrome? Yes, 266 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: so Cc. 267 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: I think it's important to remember is in her very 268 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 2: early twenties. She's still quite young. And I think what 269 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: happens sometimes when you achieve the kind of success that 270 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: Cec has achieved and you're still quite young, is you 271 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: don't really understand what you look like to people who 272 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: are frankly just a little bit younger than you, because 273 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: you kind of still feel like that. I mean, I 274 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: remember being twenty two. I still felt like a teenager, 275 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: even though I wasn't anymore. So the idea that I 276 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: might be some sort of influence to somebody who is 277 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: maybe just a decade younger than me felt really really 278 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: strange for me, especially if in CC's case, where it's new, 279 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: she just got promoted, she just got catapulted into the 280 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: public eye in this really big way, so she has 281 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: a lot of adjusting to do as a very young 282 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: woman to this idea that there are young girls who 283 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: were like she was just a few years ago who 284 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: are now looking to her to be some sort of 285 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: guide or some kind of influence. And I imagine that 286 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 2: would feel really uncomfortable for somebody in CC's position, because 287 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: she's still very much trying to figure herself out and 288 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: trying to deal yes with imposter syndrome. And I remember 289 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: hearing somebody it's actually on TikTok, somebody on TikTok made 290 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: a really really good point. It's always stuck with me 291 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: about imposter syndrome, which is that if you are a 292 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: person of color in predominantly white spaces, then your imposter 293 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: syndrome is not so much imposter syndrome because you are, 294 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: in fact, in a impostor. These spaces were not designed 295 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: for you to succeed in. You were not meant to 296 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 2: do well in these spaces, so you are the impostor. 297 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 2: So your imposter syndrome is very much valid. And I 298 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 2: think that's the case for CC as well. She is 299 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: an impostor in this world, and there are going to 300 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 2: be people who look at her differently or who criticize 301 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 2: her differently than her white counterparts, because this is not 302 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 2: a world in which people ever envisioned black women being 303 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 2: centered or put into principal positions. So she is an 304 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: impostor here and so therefore her imposter syndrome is quite valid. 305 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 2: So she, I think, is reckoning with that realization and 306 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: trying to balance what this is going to mean for 307 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: the rest of her career that she's always going to 308 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: have to be fighting for a place for herself and 309 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: for people like her in this world because it wasn't 310 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 2: designed for people like her. And at the same time, 311 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: because she's doing that, she's going to be this role 312 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: model for younger dancers, whether she wants to be or not. 313 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: Another thing that kind of came up as a theme 314 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: is that there are a lot of strains in multiple 315 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: characters of the book. So there are a lot of 316 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: artistic decisions made at the dance company that maybe she 317 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: doesn't agree with. You talk about, like the wear and 318 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: tear on her body, and so something that feels like 319 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,959 Speaker 1: it comes up is this idea of agency as it 320 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: relates to her as a character. Can you talk about 321 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: why it was important for you to portray that. 322 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, because I think this is something that a 323 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: lot of dancers in particular struggle with if they are 324 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: dancing within the confines of a company and they're not 325 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 2: freelancer or something. There is this constant, career long battle 326 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: with this idea of creative agency, and a lot of 327 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: dancers really struggle with this actually because this is a 328 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: creative profession. I'm in a creative profession, but no one's 329 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: telling me what to write or how to write in 330 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: a different voice that's different from my own, or how 331 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: to represent myself as a writer as an author, or 332 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: how to make myself come across on the page. All 333 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 2: of those decisions are up to me, and I think 334 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: in many creative professions that is the case, but dance 335 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: is kind of an exception to that. If you are 336 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: dancing as a professional within a company, then your creativity 337 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 2: is allowed to operate, but within the confines of that 338 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 2: company's repertoire. So you are told what to dance, you 339 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 2: are told what roles to play. You don't really get 340 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: to decide, Okay, I'm going to do Swan Lake, but 341 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: I'm not going to do Giselle. You don't really get 342 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: to make those decisions. You get casted, and the casting 343 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 2: is just the casting, so you might not get some 344 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: roles and you might get some other roles that maybe 345 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 2: you feel less identified with or less comfortable with as 346 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: a dancer, if someone makes a ballet on you, so 347 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: if a choreographer comes in and uses you as inspiration 348 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: and creates a new ballet with you in mind, you 349 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: might have a little bit more input, but the choreographer 350 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 2: still gets the final say. So there is this kind 351 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: of push and pull with agency, especially in classical and 352 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: neoclassical ballet, which is a little bit more stringent than 353 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 2: modern or contemporary might be. So you have to find 354 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 2: places where you can express your creative agency. So For 355 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: some dancers, that means that they do things on the side, 356 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 2: so they negotiate within their contract that they're allowed to 357 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: do some freelance work, or that they're allowed to do 358 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: guest appearances with other companies. For some dancers, that means 359 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 2: that they have other creative outlets. I know a lot 360 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 2: of dancers who have side hustles as bakers or visual artists, 361 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: or they create their own clothing lines, because these are 362 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 2: the areas where they can more freely express their creativity 363 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: without anybody dictating to them how they can do it. 364 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: There's this wonderful movement actually of a collection of dancers 365 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 2: who are creating this project that features queer personalities on 366 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: the stage. Because oftentimes in the new classical and neoclassical 367 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: ballet worlds, dancers who fall within the LGBTQ community are 368 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: asked exclusively to dance roles that do not express that identity. 369 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: They are asked to dance roles that express heterosexual love only. 370 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: Classical ballet in particular is incredibly heteronormative, and that makes 371 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 2: sense if you consider the history, but it has not 372 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: evolved yet. Black dancers for a long time. Thankfully, this 373 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: is changing, were asked to wear flesh colored tights, which 374 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: really meant pink tights, which is not flesh colored for 375 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: most people of color, And so in that way, they're 376 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: almost asked to go into whiteface in this weird way. 377 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: And thankfully, the conversation that we've been having about people 378 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: of color in ballet has been advancing enough that those 379 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 2: things are starting to change. But there are lots of 380 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: other areas in ballet where dancers are asked to act 381 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: out a personality that is very removed from their actual 382 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: personality on the stage and to not exercise that creative 383 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 2: agency within the company's repertoire. So there is this constant 384 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: battle of okay, where do I claim my creative agency? 385 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: Where do I get to have some say over how 386 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: I move this body and how I express myself with 387 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: this body? And CC I think definitely grapples with that 388 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: in one way or another throughout her story. 389 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: You know, it is an interesting tension because it feels 390 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: like this is one of those areas where like uniformity 391 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,719 Speaker 1: is really important, right, Like everybody needs to wear their 392 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: hair pulled back, and I don't typically see ballerinas with 393 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: a bunch of louder boulder makeup it's pretty neutral and 394 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So it is interesting to think 395 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: about what does it look like to have agency in 396 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: a space that really appreciates in affirms everybody looking the 397 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: same way, right, Yeah. Yeah. It also reminds me of 398 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: these tiktoks as you mentioned TikTok, Like I see a 399 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: lot of ballerinas and ballerina moms doing a lot of 400 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: coloring of their shoes. Yes, right, because of course those 401 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: don't even come in a variety of colors, so they're 402 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: using like a lot of makeup and foundation to make 403 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: them fleshtone right right. 404 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 2: Thankfully, Again, there are some companies that are starting to 405 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 2: change that, like I believe block now has actually flush 406 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: colored point shoes for a variety of shades of skin. 407 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: But the fact that that's only happened within the past 408 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: like five years or so is crazy when you think 409 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: about it. 410 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So I do 411 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: want to have you give us a little bit of 412 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: a lesson in education on some ballerina terms. I mean, 413 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: if you can nicoles, because you use some of these 414 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: in the book, and so I want to make sure 415 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: people have the correct information. So I'm going to give 416 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: you a word, and can you give us the definition 417 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: of what this is? Yes, and I hope you helped 418 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: me with the pronunciation as well. So the first one 419 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: is lad dancer. 420 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: Yes, la dancer, So that's a male dancer. We often 421 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 2: think of female dancers in ballet as ballerinas and in 422 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: quill use sets. Fine, it's not incorrect, but technically the 423 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: term ballerina is reserved for a female dancer who has 424 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 2: reached the top tier of a company. So ballerina is 425 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: a principal dancer. A female ballerina who has not reached 426 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 2: that stage is called la dansuss So the female form 427 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: of the dancer, and the dancer is a male who 428 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 2: has not yet reached the pinnacle of the ballet company. 429 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: Got it okay? And so that was la. Is there 430 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: a difference in la dancer? 431 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? So these are French terms, and in French your 432 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: articles are gendered. We don't have that in English, we 433 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: just have the A and, But in French and many 434 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: other romance languages, not all of the other romance languages, 435 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: your articles are gendered. So la is a feminine article 436 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: and le l e is a masculine article. 437 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: Got it okay? What about pod character. 438 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: Poda character, So a poda character is basically a character dance. 439 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: So oftentimes these are just little dances within a larger 440 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: story ballet that don't have anything to do with the 441 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: story at all. They're just there as a little diversion. 442 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 2: They're just fun, they're usually comedic, and yeah, they're just there. 443 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 2: A good example is the dance between Puss and Boots 444 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 2: and the White Cat at the end of The Sleeping Beauty, 445 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 2: this classical ballet. It doesn't have anything to do with 446 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: the story, but it's just a fun dance and it's 447 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: usually danced comedically. Got it? 448 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: Okay? What about reverence? 449 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 2: Reverence is basically the same word in English reverence. It's 450 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: just what we do at the end of a ballet 451 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: class to show respect to the teacher. So it usually 452 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: involves like a quick little bow, or you might simply applaud, 453 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 2: but it's just some gesture that you give toward the 454 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 2: dance teacher at the end of a ballet class to 455 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: show them respect and to thank them. 456 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: An entree. 457 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 2: Entree is your entry, so this is your grand entrance, 458 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 2: usually of your protagonists in a story ballet. 459 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for that quick little education on some of 460 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: those terms. I appreciate, no problem. So I want to 461 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about your writing process. Can 462 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the ways that crafting 463 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: a work of fiction is similar to dance. 464 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: I would think that crafting a work of fiction is 465 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 2: similar to dance in terms of the organization, at least 466 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: the way that I do it. So typically, the way 467 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: that a ballet is built is you're always thinking about steps. 468 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 2: So Balanchen's, the father of American neoclassical ballet, famously once 469 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: said that there are no new steps, there are only 470 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: new combinations. So basically what that means is that you're 471 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: not inventing anything new, You're just organizing into something creative. 472 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: And I think that's definitely what happens in writing. I'm 473 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: not necessarily making up new words. I'm not creating a 474 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: new language here. I'm working with the tools that I'm 475 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 2: given to create a voice of my own or a 476 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: voice of a character that I've built, and to use 477 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 2: that to create a story. So when you're building a ballet, 478 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: you're going to start once you have your music with 479 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 2: the steps, so you need to know what shapes you're 480 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: trying to make, both with the dancer's bodies, but also 481 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 2: on the stage. Oftentimes choreographers are not only thinking about 482 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 2: what they want the audience to see, but also sometimes 483 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 2: they're thinking about the vertical line. So if you imagine, 484 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 2: like a camera hovering above the stage, what would that 485 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: camera see. Oftentimes audience isn't thinking about that, but the 486 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: choreographer is. And then what you're doing is you are 487 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: trying to basically work out what's possible. So a lot 488 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: of choreography, especially if neoclassical works, is experimental. You get 489 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: into the studio, you try it out, and you figure 490 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 2: out what works and what doesn't. And in that way, 491 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: I think it can be really similar to writing. I 492 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 2: have an idea of what I want to do in 493 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: terms of character and in terms of story, and then 494 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: I start writing and some of those things may work 495 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 2: on the page and some of them may not. So 496 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: as I'm writing, even though I typically work with a 497 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: detailed outline, I know how the story is going to end. 498 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: When I start actually writing, Often the way that I 499 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: get from point A to point B, even though I've 500 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 2: already mapped it out, it may deviate just because it 501 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 2: needs to for one reason or another. It might not 502 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: work the way I thought I was going to work 503 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 2: or the character kind of evolves as I begin writing them. 504 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: So is there anything about CC that surprised you from 505 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: when you initially major outline to the final draft of 506 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: what the book became. 507 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, surprised, maybe not, but definitely there were changes along 508 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 2: the way. So in my first ever draft of this book, 509 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: Cec was actually a little bit older. She was twenty four, 510 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 2: and even though it's only a difference of a couple years, 511 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 2: it didn't feel right for her to be in her 512 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: mid twenties. She felt younger to me than that. Even 513 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: though she does make a series of very mature decisions 514 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: for someone hurt age throughout the book, at her core, 515 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: she was a younger woman. So that was something that 516 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: I went back and changed because it was more true 517 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 2: to the character that I had written. 518 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: So this is your debut novel. If you could go 519 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: back in time, what advice would you give yourself before 520 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 1: starting the book? 521 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: Huh? I think I would tell myself to start it sooner. 522 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 2: So I think I mentioned that this idea first came 523 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 2: to me in twenty fifteen, and I'm normally not great 524 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: with dates, but the reason that I remember this date 525 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 2: is because it was probably about May or June of 526 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen that the idea for this book kind of 527 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: started gelling in my mind. And I wanted to write 528 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: a story about the first black female principle at the 529 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 2: American Ballet Theater. And I wanted to write about the 530 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: American Ballet Theater because it's a classical company while the 531 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: New York City Ballet is a neoclassical company. And I 532 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: just am a little bit more knowledgeable about classical ballet. 533 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: Became more knowledgeable about classical neoclassical through my research, but 534 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: at time, that's where my expertise really lay. Now, the 535 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: issue that I thought I faced was that even though 536 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: this is fiction and I would be writing about a 537 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 2: fictional American Ballet Theater, and I ended up writing about 538 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: a fictional New York City Ballet. I knew that Misty 539 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: Copeland was at the American Ballet Theater at the time. 540 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: She was a soloist, and I remember thinking to myself, 541 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: if I can just get this book out before they 542 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: promote her, then I'm going to be okay. And I 543 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: thought I had a lot of time because I was like, 544 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: it would be unprecedented, it would be crazy if they 545 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: promoted Misty Copeland as a principal at the American Ballet Theater. 546 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: There's never been a black female principle at that company. 547 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: Well that was June, and in August they did promote her, 548 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: and so I was like, well, now I can't write 549 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: this book again. I would have been writing about a 550 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: fictional version of the American Ballet Theater, but I thought 551 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: it would be too big a suspension of disbelief to 552 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 2: completely ignore Missy Copeland's existence. If I were writing about 553 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 2: a black female, Everyone's going to think I was writing 554 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 2: about Missy Copeland if I wrote that book now that 555 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: she had been promoted. So I concluded that I just 556 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: couldn't write this book. And it probably took me a 557 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 2: good year before I realized. I was like, you idiot, 558 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: just said it at the New York City Ballet. Me 559 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: either make up a new company or move it to 560 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 2: a different company in New York. And eventually I just 561 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: moved it. But I could have come to that conclusion. 562 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: I don't know why that I got so stuck there. 563 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: I think that Misty Copeland's promotion was so momentous and 564 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 2: so exciting that it really rocked me in terms of 565 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: how I was thinking about the classical neoclassical ballet world, 566 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 2: and it gave me, I think, probably one of the 567 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: biggest cases of writers black that I've ever experienced, and 568 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 2: that it stopped me in my tracks for a full 569 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: year before I was able to work my way around 570 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 2: the new shape of the classical neoclassical ballet world. I 571 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: would say, start sooner, I would go back and maybe 572 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: not let that completely derail me as much as it did. Right. 573 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: I think it's impossible for something that being to not 574 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: knock you off your block a little bit, right, because 575 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: you just weren't expecting it. 576 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: Right. 577 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: I'm curious if there are other things that changed about 578 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: your writing or where the story went after Misty was promoted. 579 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: It's funny because the conversation around black women in ballet 580 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: started to change and because of Misty Copeland's promotion, and 581 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: that's a good thing, but it's also kind of a 582 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 2: frustrating thing because although Misty Copeland is the first black 583 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: principle at the American Ballet Theater, she is not the 584 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 2: only black dancer in the classical neoclassical ballet world who's 585 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 2: out there trying to have these conversations. There were black 586 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 2: women before Misty Copeland who were trying to have this conversation. 587 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: Misty Copeland herself acknowledges this and is very great about 588 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 2: giving credit where credit is due, but there are dancers 589 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: before her who were trying to have these conversations and 590 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: dancers after her who continue to try to have these conversations. 591 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: But because of her promotion, the acceleration of that conversation changed. 592 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: So I wanted to write about a black female principle 593 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: because there weren't that many of them in these large 594 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: ballet companies, especially in the classical world. But when mister 595 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: Copland got promoted, those conversations started to change, which meant 596 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: that the conversation that I was having with this piece 597 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: of fiction had to change. And so I think that 598 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: was also part of why it may have derelled me 599 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: for as long as it did, is I needed to 600 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: rethink how I was going to enter into this conversation, 601 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 2: because I had thought initially that I was entering into 602 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: a conversation that nobody was having, really, or at least 603 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: nobody was having in sort of the mainstream ballet world. 604 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: But now this conversation was happening in the mainstream ballet world. 605 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 2: So I had to think about that and shift my 606 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 2: focus a little bit due to that. Mm hmm. 607 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: Thank you more from our conversation after the break. So, 608 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: when writing gets frustrating or you have roadblocks like the 609 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: one that you just talked about, who is your support system? 610 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: Who are you making a call to. 611 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 2: I am a very sort of lone wolf writer. I 612 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: tend to work through these things completely internally. I do 613 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: have a support system. My mom is someone that I 614 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: might bounce ideas off of occasionally, especially when talking about 615 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: human behavior. My mom is a psychologist, so if I'm 616 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 2: writing about anything related to human behavior, psychology, mental health, 617 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: I'll run those ideas by her and ask for her input. 618 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 2: But even still, I present them to her like, Hey, 619 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 2: I have a friend who maybe is going through this thing. 620 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 2: What would you say about that? Or can you tell 621 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 2: me a little bit more about clinical depression? You know, 622 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: I won't give her the specifics. I don't know why 623 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 2: I've always been this way, but I tend to hold 624 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 2: those details really close to my heart when in the 625 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: process of writing. I tend not to enjoy talking too 626 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: much about what I'm writing while I'm still writing it. 627 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: When I hit writer's block, what I've learned over time 628 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: is that writer's block is real, just a natural part 629 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: of the process. It's going to happen. It's not super avoidable, 630 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: and I don't think it's necessarily a good thing or 631 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 2: a bad thing. It's just neutral. And usually what it 632 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 2: means is that I just need to step back for 633 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 2: a minute and find a way to reconnect with what 634 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: I need to reconnect with. So sometimes it's as simple 635 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: as I need to go take a walk in nature. 636 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 2: I just need a break, I need to get away 637 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 2: from my desk. Sometimes it can be that I need 638 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: to hear somebody else's voice besides my own. So I 639 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: might need to go read somebody else's work. Maybe if 640 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: I'm writing about ballet, I might go read another book 641 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: of fiction about ballet, just to get some inspiration from 642 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: somebody else who's completed this type of project before. Sometimes 643 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 2: it's that I need to emerge from the world that 644 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: I've immersed myself in, because I do get quite immersed 645 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 2: into my research. So sometimes that can be a little 646 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,479 Speaker 2: bit overwhelming, and that can cause writer's black. So maybe 647 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: I need to look at something unrelated to ballet for 648 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 2: a little while. Maybe I need to go look at 649 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: a documentary about I don't know, clowns, something that is 650 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: completely unrelated to what I'm currently writing about. But usually 651 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: the writer's block for me only last for about a day, 652 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 2: and that something will in the attempt to emerage from 653 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: writer's block. Usually that comes with the jolt of inspiration 654 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,919 Speaker 2: and I'm back to being pretty prolific the next day. 655 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: So how do you balance writing about the dance world 656 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: with more complex topics like some of the ones you've 657 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: talked about, so abortion, body, image, race, What benefit do 658 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: you think readers get from reading about those kinds of intersections. 659 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 2: I really wanted to write something that felt true to 660 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 2: me about a dancer when I first thought of this book. 661 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 2: Not only did a book about a black ballerina not 662 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 2: exist yet in the realm of fiction, but a lot 663 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 2: of the fiction that did exist about ballet was this 664 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: very sensationalized, oversimplified version of the dance world. So this 665 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 2: wasn't true of every book that was written about ballet, 666 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 2: but there are a lot of books about ballet that 667 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 2: were about dance series being really cutthroat and sabotaging each other, 668 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: and everybody has anorexia or bolimia or some combination thereof, 669 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 2: and there are so many reasons why I object to 670 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: that being the only narrative out there about dancers. Oh 671 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: I forgot. One of the more important cliches is that 672 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 2: all the male dancers are gay. I really tried to 673 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 2: push back against that narrative because it's very untrue. But 674 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 2: I think that for me, this does the art form 675 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 2: a disservice because it turns it into a soap opera, 676 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 2: and it's not a soap opera. These are very serious artists. 677 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 2: These are very serious athletes. Part of what makes their 678 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 2: work so incredibly beautiful is because these are people who 679 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: are dedicating their entire lives to this career in order 680 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 2: to succeed in this way in this world, and for 681 00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 2: female dancers in particular, because of their dedication, their careers 682 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 2: are quite short because of what dance does to the body. 683 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 2: So all of this running around and putting glass in 684 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: each other's point shoes, nobody has time for that, and 685 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 2: no one has the energy for that in the ballet world. 686 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 2: So I really wanted to represent the ballet world in 687 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 2: a much more nuanced and complex way. So I think 688 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 2: what I wanted readers to get out of me dealing 689 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 2: with the intersection of those things is that complexity and 690 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 2: that nuance, because I think it just makes dance all 691 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: the more beautiful. I really wanted readers, even if they 692 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 2: had never seen anybody perform a single ballet step, I 693 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 2: really wanted them to understand the beauty of this career 694 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 2: and the tragedies of this career. I mean, it's complicated. 695 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 2: Everything in human experience, for the most part, is complicated, 696 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 2: and I really wanted to help that come through in 697 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 2: this work. I mean, I hadn't seen anybody talking about 698 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: a black principle dancer. I hadn't seen many people talk 699 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 2: talking about what it's like to be a black woman 700 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 2: in a hostile white space and talking about a black 701 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 2: woman's body in a way that wasn't sexualized or mammified 702 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:15,720 Speaker 2: for lack of a better term. 703 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: So what do you feel like you learned about yourself 704 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: in writing the book? 705 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: I think for years, I've always been a huge lover 706 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 2: of ballet, even when I was a little kid in 707 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 2: a quick ballet classes. Because I wasn't immediately good at ballet, 708 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: I never lost my love for the art form. I 709 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 2: would always watch ballets. I loved looking at dancers and 710 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: looking at what they could do, and looking at the 711 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 2: differences between dancers, like they're playing the same role, but 712 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 2: look at how differently they're dancing it. I loved that. Eventually, 713 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 2: that love brought me back to the practice of ballet 714 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: as a teenager, and I continued that through college. I 715 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 2: had the opportunity to dance under the wing of a 716 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 2: very famous ex balanchine dancer who was the first to 717 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 2: tell me that I was good at this and that 718 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 2: I was good at ballet, and I've continued taking classes 719 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 2: as an adult. But because I was never a professional dancer, 720 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 2: for a really long time, I struggled with calling myself 721 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 2: a dancer, and it didn't really matter who told me 722 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 2: that I was. I've had dancers who are working professionally saying, no, 723 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 2: you dance, you're a dancer, but it never felt right 724 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 2: because I wasn't a professional. I didn't look like them, 725 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: I wasn't up on stage performing for people. But I 726 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 2: think part of what the writing of this book did 727 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 2: for me was connect me to this idea that maybe 728 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 2: I am a dancer. Not professionally, that's not my career, 729 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 2: but maybe that is part of who I am. Because 730 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 2: writing this book, especially the dance scenes was a very 731 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 2: physical process for me. I mean anytime there is dance 732 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 2: being discussed in this book, when I was writing those scenes, 733 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 2: I was either really very closely studying those particular steps 734 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 2: if it was part of a ballet that already exists, 735 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 2: but if it's combinations that I was making up for 736 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,320 Speaker 2: the page, I dance those combinations. I would be writing 737 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 2: and I would get up and I'd be like, let 738 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 2: me just see if this makes sense. And I, you know, 739 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 2: really was just naturally called to feel that in my 740 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 2: body and to understand what these steps would feel like. 741 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 2: And so I think doing that really connected me and 742 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 2: made me a little bit more comfortable at least with 743 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 2: identifying as a dancer, if not a professional dancer. 744 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that, Nicole. 745 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: So where can we stay connected with you? What is 746 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 1: your website as well as any social media handles you'd 747 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: like to share? And where can we grab a copy 748 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:28,919 Speaker 1: of the book. 749 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 2: So you can grab a copy of the book, And 750 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 2: where books are sold on Amazon? I say, support your 751 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 2: local bookshops. It's there too for a lot of places. 752 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 2: But I am bad at social media, but I am 753 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 2: on Instagram, my Instagram is Nick two Cole and Ikk 754 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 2: the Number two co l E. I'm also on Twitter, 755 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 2: not being good at Twitter at Nicole the Cuffee and 756 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 2: Yeah Kry. 757 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: We will be sure to include all of that in 758 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: the show notes. Thank you so much for sending home 759 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: time with us to day, Nicole. I appreciate it, Thank you, 760 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: thank you. I'm so glad Nicole was able to join 761 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: us today to chat about Dances. To learn more about 762 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: her work, or to grab your copy of Dances, visit 763 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash 764 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: dances and don't forget to text two of your girls 765 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: right now and encourage them to check out the episode. 766 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit 767 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. 768 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: And if you want to continue to digging into this 769 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: topic or just be in community with other sisters, come 770 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's 771 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. 772 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls 773 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise 774 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: Ellis and Zaria Taylor, editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. 775 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with another regular episode of 776 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: the podcast. Until then, take good care of yourself. Which 777 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: friend are you and your sister circle? Are you the wallflower, 778 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: the peacemaker, the firecracker or the leader? Take the quiz 779 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: at Sisterhoodheels dot com slash quiz to find out, and 780 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: then make sure to grab your copy of Sisterhood Heels 781 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: to find out more about how you can be a 782 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,959 Speaker 1: better friend and how your circle can do a better 783 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 1: job of supporting you. Order yours today at Sisterhoodheels dot com.