WEBVTT - Chasing Clues 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.640 I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:04.240 in the basement. 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.440 Somebody told you that Shakaia was a victim of human trafficking. 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:10.119 I'm come to find out. This is like it exploded 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:12.120 into this huge thing. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:14.560 I knew, I just knew something was wrong. 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.320 Police say thirty three year old Jared Bride Again was 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:17.919 shot dead. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.280 I kept calling his phone during the drive. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.800 Gunned down in front of his two year old daughter. 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:25.160 It's a murder of the stun Jack Speach neighbors. 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.880 His murder has attracted national attention, with the investigators saying 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:29.760 he was targeted. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.320 Eventually a police officer answered and told me to come 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:33.320 to the police station. 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.760 Justice is something that takes different shapes or forms. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:43.280 If you know something, heard something, please it's never too 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:43.760 late to. 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:44.400 Do the right thing. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.080 So I'm Dana Thompson aka Body Movin, and. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.519 I'm John Green. For about a decade, Deanna and I 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.400 spent a lot of time on the Internet, especially in 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.480 the underbelly of the Internet, trying to identify and get 0:00:57.520 --> 0:00:59.120 animal abusers arrested. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.600 We spent countless hours scouring the dark web helping catch predators. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.600 We spent over a year and a half trying to 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.360 get law enforcement to take us seriously about a man 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.880 that was killing cats online and he was threatening to 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.600 move on to kill humans. And that was Luca mcnatta. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.559 Yeah, you might have heard about the Netflix special called 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:19.600 Don't Fuck with Cats. 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:24.320 That's us. Well, now we're turning our online investigator skills 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:28.520 to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and just ignored cases. 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:41.360 This is True Crimes, the production of iHeartRadio and Katie's Studios. 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.560 Camera. Yeah, it's Deanna. How are you, darling. 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.039 I'm doing good, so good to hear from you. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.080 I really don't talk to too many people about Chikai 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.560 because I get scared, you know, I don't. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:52.920 I get worried. 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.560 Because when I found when they told me she was 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.200 a victim of human trafficking, they gave me a list 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.560 of names, and I was shocked because these people I 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.120 watched me cry, you know, so I didn't know who 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:02.840 I couldn't trust. 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.520 So somebody told you that Chicaia was a victim of 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:06.400 human trafficking. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:06.920 Yeah. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.079 Back in January of twenty twenty, the detective called me 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.080 in and asked me if I would tell KaiA thing 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.400 all over again. So I did, and he said, I 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.160 have somebody that wants to talk to you want to 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:18.880 talk to him? I said, yeah, let's talk to anybody. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:19.720 And so this guy. 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.000 Madgin know, I cannot even remember his name because I 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.160 was like, my my mom blake when they told me 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.119 that he came in here and he told me, he said, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:28.840 you were talked about a couple of people of interest. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.160 He said that was JJ Johnson and Tommy Medicine out. 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.639 And so he told me he said, Chicai is a 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:35.919 victim of human traffick king. 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.639 This was somebody in law enforcement, a detective or an 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:39.400 FBI agent. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.320 He was a human traffick king investigator for the Yellowstoam County. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.560 My my mom blank because that when he gave me 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.040 the list of names, I was like, I was shocked. 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.960 I felt so betrayed. What was the list of names? 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.240 Like in like in reference to like what they say? 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:54.040 The list of names? 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:59.720 Was like, yeah, yeah, what I can send you that? 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:01.000 This the names they gave me. 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:01.920 It was crazy. 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:03.840 I was shocked, like, why would they even give me 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:04.400 this listen name? 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:05.880 Why would they give that to you? 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:06.919 Yeah? 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.320 Because I'm my first song. So I called my friend 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.800 and Charlotte, I said, because I would lay here and 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.520 plot how I was going to get to these guys 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.240 and make them, you know. And so finally I said, 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:17.840 well I need to get out of her start you know, 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:19.680 some of these some of these thoughts. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:23.440 Later, we spoke with our producer Jeff Shane about this 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:25.120 new information and he had. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:25.839 Some news too. 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.200 So I have a bit of yeah, a bit of 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:32.160 an update. So I was messaging with Tamara Kaia's mom 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:36.000 last night on Facebook and was asking if she could 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.560 send us those lists of names that she said she had, 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.000 and right away sent them over. I'm going to send 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.000 them to you guys. I'm going to text you them now. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:45.960 That's okay, yeah, right, I. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.280 Gotta pick Oh, okay, it's a picture. Oh she Oh, 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:50.560 it's a picture of the list. 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.560 So this was something she said that the law enforcement 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.800 gave her she did. This is not her handwriting, this 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:58.040 is law enforcements handwriting. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.800 Really, there's a lot of females on this list. Interesting. 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:10.240 Oh oh my god. The second picture Romelo big Day. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:16.800 Oh wow, I'm surprised to see his name on there. 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.719 That's so we're looking at a piece of paper with 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.440 I don't know fifteen to twenty different names written on here. 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.039 And obviously Deanna and I are looking for people that 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:34.159 we thought were somehow associated with or had something to 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.279 do with Zakai's disappearance, and one of those names is 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.839 on here. The name that I thought would be on 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.120 here isn't. That's the one that gets that's. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.320 You know, well, are you talking about Rico? 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:47.800 Yeah? 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.160 I too noticed that Rico's name was not on this list. 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.880 So I asked Samara about Rico, and she said that 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.560 the investigator who wrote this list told her that these 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:59.960 were people who were recruiting girls for Rica. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.200 This is Rico's list. Are you kidding me? 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.040 This is like, these are Rico's people. 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:05.320 Yeah. 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.800 So Rico's like the head honcho and these are heads henchmen. 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.080 Wow, he's got a lot of people out in the 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.599 streets doing his work for him. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:20.120 Okay, that's surprising. I mean, I knew Ramelo was like 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.560 a subservient to Rico in some fashion, but I wasn't 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.760 sure what exactly the connection was. 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.760 So again, this is the list that somebody in law 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:36.200 enforcement provided Sakaia's family, saying that these people were out 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.640 recruiting girls on the street and doing it for Rico. Wow, 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:41.920 this is a long list. 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.640 Okay, well, this is great when you say this was 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.599 written by law enforcement and provided, you know, like to Tamara, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.640 it's like literally in black and white now right, It's 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:58.360 it's totally tangible. And seeing Ramelo's name on this list 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.320 gaves me chills because I looked at him so hard, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.080 you know what I mean? I looked at him so hard. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.000 And I'm sure and I'm sure a lot of these 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.800 are probably social media names that if you were to 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.400 go to Romelo Big Days, you would find that person 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:12.960 as a friend. 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:15.320 That's what I want to do. I want to get 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:19.280 these in a matrix of of what of something, a 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:23.400 matrix of sorts, and go through social media see if 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.760 I can tie any of them together. Right wow? 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:27.280 Yeah. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.840 Unfortunately Ramelo has like thirty six Facebook pages, so you 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:33.680 know that's gonna take some time. 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:35.560 Is he still in custody? 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:40.760 He was released, okay, but he had another he had 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:46.080 another assault. I know exactly what it feels like to 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.040 have somebody missing from the family and having the birthday 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.800 cakes with them not there, and the tears and the 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.279 heartache and just like the whole Before I was born, 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:01.839 my cousin was abducted from my aunt's front yard, and 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.120 you know, after I was born and growing up, we 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.120 would always talk about him and I never excuse me. 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.400 It was a constant theme growing up, Like we would 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.360 have like birthday cakes with his name on it. You know. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.080 It was like, where is he in my family? 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:17.440 Dude? 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.880 My family in Michigan were super close, like we did 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.200 everything together. My mom had five sisters and they all 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.200 had like a lot of kids, and we would all 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.880 get together Birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving. I mean it was huge, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.920 and there was always that one person missing. So it 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.200 was a constant reminder that he's not there. I never 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.760 really understood. When I got older enough to understand, I 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.880 learned that he was abducted. When he was one years old. 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.440 My aunt called the police and my aunt explained to police, 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.200 you know, like my son's missing. He's only a baby, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.360 and this is like the sixties, all right, kids at 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.560 one years old were sitting in the front yard by themselves. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.240 It's just the way it was, right. They were like, well, 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.920 where's your wor the dad and she was like, we've 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.040 been divorced, you know for six months, eight months whatever 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.400 it was. And the cops at the time were like, 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:09.760 he probably has them, don't worry about it. And that's 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.280 how things were back then, and like there was no 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.880 FBI task force for missing children to go to other states, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.600 you know, things like that. The cops were just like, yeah, whatever. 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.280 I remember being such a young such a young kid, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.800 going what probably like eight, and my mom was explaining 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.600 it to me, and I even back then, I was like, 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.400 what do you mean, what do you mean? They said, 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:31.880 don't worry about it, what do you mean? Where is he? 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.400 And when when I was I want to say, twenty, 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.200 he reached out to her. Oh my god, my cousin 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:44.280 called my aunt hit the ex took him to California, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:50.280 and when he died, my cousin finally got information about 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.720 his mom and reunited. But yeah, the ex, but we 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.240 didn't know for sure. My whole life, we didn't know 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.280 where he was. It was always a thought that yeah, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.360 maybe maybe he's with his dad, but we never knew 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.280 for sure. So from like a really early age, I 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.439 had like this problem with systematic injustice that let's say, 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.199 I don't know how to say it. I didn't get 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.200 it and I still don't to this day. I really 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:21.000 don't get it. Because of my own personal background and 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.200 because I've been growing as a person. One of my 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:27.040 biggest things is crimes against marginalized communities. In Chicaia's case 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.959 really pains me. As we wait for the DNA paperwork 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.440 to come back from Chicaia's parents, we wanted to jump 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:36.400 into more about the horrific legal hurdles Native Americans, especially 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:37.800 Native American women face. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.600 Chakaia was a member of the Cheyenne Reservation, which is 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.840 located just outside of Billings, Montana, which was where she 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.959 was living when she disappeared. This is significant because Native 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:53.000 American reservations are sovereign territories. They are not governed by 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.440 state laws or police by local state police. This means 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:00.280 they have their own tribal police who handle reservation matters. 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.679 But often those departments have limited budgets and are understaffed, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:06.839 and when a major crime is committed, like a murder 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.079 or a rape, the FBI is supposed to assist. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.040 In Chicaia's case, even though she's a reservation member, she 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.520 went missing from the city of Billings, which means the 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.480 local police are tasked to handle her case and try 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.560 and find this missing person. However, it becomes complicated because 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.040 families often report their loved ones or missing persons to 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.920 multiple departments, and cases get handed around from one department 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.320 to another. Who investigates what and who can arrest who? 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.800 Is a jurisdictional nightmare. We found out and. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.480 From what we hear, the system is very broken. Native 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.920 American and Indigenous families don't trust law enforcement, and law 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.640 enforcement doesn't feel like they are even being given enough 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.120 information to understand all the complexities of this problem. Our 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.280 producer Jeff Shane, spoke to FBI analyst Don Metzmyer. He 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.880 is one of the only law enforcement officers who would 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:57.720 talk to us on or off the record. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.360 Don works as an intelligence at list out of New Mexico. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.040 He's tasked with working on missing and Murdered Indigenous women 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.439 cases or MMIW in a state in an effort to 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.840 help find answers to family members. While he hasn't worked 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.960 directly on Chicaia's case, he's familiar with her story and 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:19.000 provided us with the context of this whole jurisdictional issue nightmare. 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.160 Hey, Don, thank you so much for taking the time. 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.440 We're trying to get in communication with Yellowstone County, for example, 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.120 which is the department who's handling Chicaia's case, and it's 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.680 been very challenging to get them to give any sort 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.960 of even just we're working on this case statement. So 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.400 explain to me that why you are kind of bucking 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:42.360 that trend and being more transparent with things like the media, podcast, TV, 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:42.839 et cetera. 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.200 Great questions, I would argue, from what the work that 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.600 we do here, it's not really a trend that we 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.600 need to that we're bucking, like what we're doing here 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.320 in New Mexico, because we've always worked very closely with 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.640 the media. One of the things that I see here 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.280 on this topic compared to the previous work I've done 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:04.720 with other areas of focus for the FBI is this topic, 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.719 we are very reliant on the public's help. And what 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.480 I mean by that is, let's say it's a national 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.480 security matter or a cyber matter or something like that, 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.880 We've got a lot of great databases that we can 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.000 use to do that research. On something like a missing 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.880 person's case, which for the most part, the FBI doesn't 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.800 investigate missing person cases except for in rare circumstances where 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.280 we believe fu play is involved and we've got overwhelming evidence. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.920 So that's usually the local law enforcement, and you mentioned 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.120 like the departments in Yellowstone, so historically we haven't done 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.600 we don't do those sorts of investigations, and we don't 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.559 in New Mexico either. However, we do provide assistance to 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.240 local law enforcement. So still breaking down that, the beginning 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.960 part of that is we are reliant on the public 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.520 when someone goes missing, and on this issue for missing persons, 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:54.640 we're back to the public, and the best way that 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.480 we can use that database, which in this case I'm 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.640 considering the public to be a database, is to put 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.640 that in out to the public. Something I often say 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:04.640 is there's a reason that the FBI still has a 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.640 ten most Wanted list, even with all the databases we have, 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.600 is we're relying on that public to see those tips, 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.480 to know that we care about a topic, and then 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.680 to give them a path forward of how to report 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.959 that information to the public. I don't know specifically about Yellowstone, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.560 but I do know from our close work on this 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:26.480 issue with our local law enforcement, there's an epidemic of 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.320 missing persons across all races and genders in the US, 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.840 and so one of our closest partners, the Albuquerque Police Department, 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:38.000 Those detectives are settled with a huge caseload. I feel 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.760 sympathetic from their perspective of how much work they have, 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.040 and that's why we've gone out of our way here 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.480 to provide them additional tools and support in those cases. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.040 And if we have information within our own holdings, as 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.000 we'd like to call it our own FBI information, we 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.000 share that with them so that we're looking at the 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.720 same thing to try to find a resolution to a case. 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.000 I'm trying not to give you a non answer to that, 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:02.760 but does that help kind of clarify? 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:03.600 It does? 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:04.840 Yeah, it does. 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:06.400 I don't want to use the word bucking the trend 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.840 because I don't want to sound like we we decided 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.600 here that we're going to stop hiding from the public. 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.520 It's just we're trying to provide a path forward for 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.640 us to work with the public a little easier, and 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.880 that we often refer to it as radical transparency or 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.120 just we just put all the information out there so 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.280 that there sometimes seems to be like you mentioned, like 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.640 maybe the frustrations of the family with local law enforcement 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:31.000 to just share what we have. 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.680 Do you find that there is a frustration or a 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:38.160 mistrust from you know, these victims' families, specifically in the 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.200 indigenous communities, with law enforcement or with you know some 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:42.280 you know with officials. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.360 Short answer is yes. And now it's hard to sometimes 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.360 understand that frustration because is that the frustration of a 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.560 missing a family member who has lost someone. I've got 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.160 a child, and if my child went missing, my first 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.360 probably primal reaction would be frustration. I I want to 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.320 know everything that's going on with that case, and sometimes 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.960 from a law enforcement perspective, and I've spoke to some 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.800 of my tribal colleagues on this. They're cut in a 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.520 really bad position because they are one members of the 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.720 tribe that are doing the investigation, but they still are 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.880 law enforcement members and they have to do preservation of evidence, 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:23.280 protecting their sources sometimes of information. So I am we're 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.520 very sympathetic with the families that are frustrated. That frustration 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.360 is their motivation to try to find answers to what 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.600 happened to their loved one, and we want them to 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.840 hold us and they should also have a right to 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.360 hold law enforcement accountable to find out what's going on 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:37.960 with their case. 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.840 Okay, So that brings me to my next point, which is, 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.000 like the jurisdictional issues of it all. Are you able 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:45.760 to just I mean, we've heard it from so many 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:47.360 different people, but I feel like you're hearing to give 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:51.600 me an answer. Explain the jurisdictional issues as it stays 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.800 sure with where you fit into, you know, like as 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.520 you were saying, tribal police, local place all that. 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.040 It wouldn't surprise me if you've heard from victims' families 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.000 and even from some maybe tribal law enforcement are there 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.360 does have the appearance of jurisdictional issues. If you look 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.680 at a map of Native American land, it's honestly called 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.800 a checkerboard, and because it depends on where you are 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.080 with a you'd have to have a GPS to know 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.400 whether you're standing on tribal land or whether you're not 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.400 standing on tribal land, and who has that authority when 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.080 you're on it, whether it's the US Attorney's office or 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.400 whether it's the state Attorney General's office. So yeah, that 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.960 jurisdictional issue will always occur, but we have to in 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.160 law enforcement have to try to come up with solutions 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.040 to try to get over maybe a map that was 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.680 made one hundred and thirty one hundred and seventy years ago. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.760 Sometimes it's hard. It's hard to work because it's more 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.000 work on an overburdened office or an overburdened agency. But 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.800 if you're the family member, you often want one single 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:48.360 point of contact that you can talk to. 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:50.920 So can I just ask, like, let's put it into 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.320 you know, because we talk a lot about Shokaia on 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.680 this podcast. Sure, So for her, she's a woman from 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.560 a reservation. She's from the Northern Reservation in Montana, but 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.040 she is living in the city of Billings and goes 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.920 missing from the city of Billings, correct, and so they 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.480 gets reported to the Billings PDA, gets passed off to 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.760 Yellowstone County. The family claims that the FBI was supposed 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:17.119 to step in and offer assistance, but that might have happened, 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:18.920 it might not have happened. They're not sure. What is 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.440 your take on the proper proto call for who should 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:23.520 be handling this investigation. 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.199 So I can't speak to Shicaia's case specifically because that 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.520 happened outside of our jurisdiction, but I would like to 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.960 discuss how that would be handled if it happened within 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.840 the state of New Mexico. So if an individual went missing, 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.080 here a Native American within the city of Albuquerque. There 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.720 are multiple entities that could have lead on that missing 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.760 person's case. That could be the City of Alququerque Police department, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.560 that could be the Bernalleeo County Sheriff's Department, or even 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.679 the state police. And in all of those instances, they 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.639 would have the lead, and we have the right if 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.080 they came to us to offer assistance. So from our 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:04.280 internal side, we would open up a parallel police assistance investigation. Again, 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:06.080 we don't have the lead on it. We are just 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.720 using some of the resources, whether it's our evidence response team, 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.240 whether it's our poligraphers, whether it's our behavioral analysis units, 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.960 what they need to help come to resolution on that case. 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.480 Why do you think the numbers are so high for 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.960 the Indigenous community in terms of homicide and missing people? 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.040 What I will say is sometimes in Native American communities 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:30.600 across the country, high rates of violence that occur, often 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.480 these departments to give them some defense. They're often underfunded, underserved, 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.800 and they don't have the technology, so they don't have 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.520 intelligence analysts. Sometimes it might be a two, four or 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.440 a six person department responsible for covering hundreds, if not thousands, 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.240 of square miles. Each of the names on these lists 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.840 represent a point of pain. I will say for New 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:55.439 Mexico because that's what I can speak to. I like 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.919 the way we're handling this. I am supported. It is 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.879 an intelligence based support the operations, which we would call 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.040 operations the investigators, whether it's local law enforcement or that. 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.640 But we're giving them the tools. Other states are not there. 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.680 So I think each state on this very complex issue nationally, 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.520 has different things that they can offer. I think New 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.440 Mexico was kind of the right environment at the right 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.399 time between all those things I mentioned earlier, where you 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.400 had an office that was willing to put a lot 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.879 of analysts and take them off their day work with 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.000 the other stuff I was doing to try to tackle 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:32.760 a very difficult crisis with big data. And other states 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:36.359 have different populations in different issues, and that's where it 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.360 is a responsibility for each office to take a look 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.159 in each state to take a look at it to 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.040 see what they can bring to this. And as I 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.480 said earlier, I'll say it again, We're going to make mistakes, 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:48.359 and I mentioned that over and over, but it's not 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.560 going to be mistakes for lack of trying to do 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:52.960