Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you should know
Speaker 1: from house Stuff Works dot com. Hey, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant doing his cheeks.
Speaker 1: He's just informed that he has to do that for
Speaker 1: the rest of our career, whether he likes it or not,
Speaker 1: because that's our lucky thing. My cheeks are actually expanding,
Speaker 1: they're actually looser than they were two and a half
Speaker 1: years ago. I know, you look like Walter Matthoud. I
Speaker 1: love he's one of those guys that he looked elderly
Speaker 1: when he was like in his forties or twenties. I
Speaker 1: think he kind of had that hunched overlook, that sarcopenia,
Speaker 1: yeah if you will, yes, nice, And that sarcopenia that's
Speaker 1: muscle loss age related muscle I thought that was literally
Speaker 1: the hunch bad. That's where you get the hunch. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: like you lose control or you just lose your muscle mass,
Speaker 1: including the stuff that had you stand up right, So yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, okay. But he also had like the jewels
Speaker 1: in like a five o'clock shadow that was ever present.
Speaker 1: But he was just a great actor, dude, I love him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was great in that Bad News Bears everything else.
Speaker 1: Starting Bad News Bears is a good one to start
Speaker 1: this one with. Because he was a drinker. He was
Speaker 1: a drinker. Um. He was what you might call an alcoholic,
Speaker 1: all right. Yeah. In the seventies though, it was everybody
Speaker 1: was an alcohol driver around with the Schlitz in your car.
Speaker 1: And it is no big deal. Now, let's say, but
Speaker 1: we remember check this is the third out of three.
Speaker 1: This is the end of the trifecta. This is the
Speaker 1: jewel in the Crown Jewels and the Family Jewels. This
Speaker 1: is it. Um, we did addiction, prohibition and now rehab. Yes. Uh.
Speaker 1: If Walter math How had wanted to go to dry out,
Speaker 1: as they say for is alcoholism in bad newspairs in
Speaker 1: the mid seventies, he would have had a very limited
Speaker 1: choice of where he could go. Probably most likely he
Speaker 1: would have gone to what is called a sanitarium a
Speaker 1: k A. An insane asylum a k A. A mental
Speaker 1: hospital or a regular hospital. Yeah yeah, but most likely
Speaker 1: it would have been uh, some sort of medical clinical
Speaker 1: setting where his addiction was treated. Yeah. It wouldn't be
Speaker 1: uh private Malibu Promises by the Sea Shore. Not yet
Speaker 1: because rehab as we know it today, UM, which which
Speaker 1: makes the cover of tabloids as frequently as any celebrity,
Speaker 1: just the concept of rehab does um didn't start until
Speaker 1: the eighties. Actually that I thought that was very shocked
Speaker 1: by that. Have you ever seen Value of the Dolls?
Speaker 1: I have not, believe it or not. That's a good movie.
Speaker 1: I had actually forgotten that i'd seen that movie until
Speaker 1: I reread this article that I wrote. Right, I think
Speaker 1: I've seen the movie. It's I guess at some point
Speaker 1: around there was like, oh, yeah, Value the Dolls. It's perfect.
Speaker 1: If you have not seen Value the Dolls, go see it.
Speaker 1: It's an excellent movie. And Petty Duke's character goes to
Speaker 1: dry out at you know, a sanitarium, which means you know,
Speaker 1: shock treatment and being strapped down so you can't drink.
Speaker 1: It could be and like if you had been going
Speaker 1: to one, you know, far enough ago and say the thirties,
Speaker 1: and you're a particularly rebel rousing alcoholic or drug addict,
Speaker 1: they may have lobotomized you. Yeah McMurphy style, yep, exactly,
Speaker 1: So Josh, you kind of blew the cover off of
Speaker 1: the fact. Well that was the first fact. Let's start
Speaker 1: till the eighties. Hey, I've been doing this a while.
Speaker 1: Uh so where are we now then? Well, um, now
Speaker 1: as they exist now, as I exists now, one of
Speaker 1: the other things that would have changed. Um that anyone
Speaker 1: listening to our prohibition an addiction podcasts, I would know
Speaker 1: that when the other things that changed and burgeoned alongside
Speaker 1: of rehabs as we know it, um, non medical facilities. Right, Um,
Speaker 1: is the idea that addiction is a brain disease, which
Speaker 1: we should cover real quick. Yeah, a little rehash. So
Speaker 1: before it was stunt gravy. It was blamed on the
Speaker 1: demon juice, right, it was inherent in that substance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was the evil thing, was the substance itself. Then
Speaker 1: it shifted and all this started about the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: late eighteenth century, early nineteenth century. The concept of addiction
Speaker 1: came about. Then it shifted from the stunt gravy to
Speaker 1: the person. It was a character flaw, right, Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: something's wrong with you because you are not able to
Speaker 1: drink and you have a weak will, not able to
Speaker 1: not drink until you fall down flat right exactly. And
Speaker 1: then finally in the eighties, I would say about the eighties,
Speaker 1: the the idea that addiction is a brain disease, that
Speaker 1: there is a process that an adict undergoes, a substance
Speaker 1: user undergoes and becomes a substance abuser. That is the
Speaker 1: direct result of this substance hijacking that person's reward center
Speaker 1: in their brain. That the the decision of whether or
Speaker 1: not to um engage in the that risky behavior or
Speaker 1: um do that substance, snort to shoot it, smack it,
Speaker 1: slam it, drop it, that kind of thing, UM is
Speaker 1: out of the user's hands, and therefore they're an addict.
Speaker 1: It's a disease. It's a chronic disease. UM that will
Speaker 1: that that has relapses and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: It needs boosters. So that model, the brain disease model,
Speaker 1: along with the creation of rehab, uh, is where we
Speaker 1: are now. Well yeah, and it's it's uh, well, it's
Speaker 1: not funny because I'm sure you're playing this, but the
Speaker 1: fact that you mentioned UM, the temperance movement and prohibition UH.
Speaker 1: In figuring out what addiction was, they actually ended up
Speaker 1: leading to rehab because back in those days. They what
Speaker 1: you what were they called sober houses? Yeah, so we're
Speaker 1: locked up basically right where you can't drink. Did you
Speaker 1: see them? Did you see the picture? You don't get
Speaker 1: the pictures to you know, Okay, so check that picture out.
Speaker 1: I think that's Carrie Nation, the head of the Women's
Speaker 1: Christian Temperance Union, standing next to you. A man who's
Speaker 1: taken a sip and standing at a bar looking a
Speaker 1: little upset. The definition of buzz kill exactly. So the
Speaker 1: temperance movement definitely gave rise to rehab by setting up,
Speaker 1: like you said, what are called sober houses like the
Speaker 1: drunk tank. Almost like on Andy Griffith you would lock
Speaker 1: up the drunk of course, you know on Andy Griffith
Speaker 1: they were the guy was in the drunk tank. Otis
Speaker 1: I think for weeks and we think they more resembled
Speaker 1: like you know, halfway houses for that are like transitional
Speaker 1: homes between prison and society. I wouldn't know about those.
Speaker 1: I think you know, your dad's house, okay. I think
Speaker 1: that um that they they resembled that. It was like
Speaker 1: this house is among houses and you can't get booze there.
Speaker 1: You can't bin bring booze you kind of need to
Speaker 1: say where you're going and why, and um that they
Speaker 1: set up these houses called sober houses that were sequestering
Speaker 1: people from regular society because alcohol was out there, and
Speaker 1: that was like the first rehab centers in the United
Speaker 1: States and the forties. I think, man, that's crazy they
Speaker 1: did this that long ago. And then we did the
Speaker 1: failed Noble experiment prohibition, which was basically like, if you
Speaker 1: can rid society of alcohol, you can rid society of alcoholics.
Speaker 1: But you can't. So maybe we can only set up
Speaker 1: places for them if they have troubles. Right, they went
Speaker 1: back to the sober house idea. It's interesting that prohibition
Speaker 1: actually kind of lead to rehabilitation clinics and more drinking.
Speaker 1: Well that's not true because they said, overall I went
Speaker 1: down butt across the board, but the alcoholics, the number
Speaker 1: of alcoholics increased, Yes, exactly, right, So Chuck, where are
Speaker 1: we were past the nineteen thirties. Oh. One of the
Speaker 1: other things that came up, not just rehab like as
Speaker 1: we understand it today, like a place where you go
Speaker 1: that's sequestered from the temptation of society to to rehabilitate yourself. Um.
Speaker 1: One of the other things that came about as a
Speaker 1: director's role of prohibition in the Temperace movement is UM
Speaker 1: twelve Step programs specifically alcoholics anonymous, right yeah, Dr Bob
Speaker 1: and Bill w Robert Smith and Bill Wilson created this
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty five. And I don't think I realized
Speaker 1: it was that old either. Yeah, long time. And remember
Speaker 1: Bill w wanted to um give everybody acid who came
Speaker 1: through the program because he was like really great, yeah,
Speaker 1: he thought it might help. Uh yeah. That was the
Speaker 1: first support group treatment program in the twelve steps has.
Speaker 1: Uh well, let's not jump there, let's let's just finish
Speaker 1: the history out. Well, the the International Order of Good Templars,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they they were a society dedicated to assisting
Speaker 1: UM alcoholics during the Temperace movement, supporting and they created
Speaker 1: the support groups that eventually gave rise to this A
Speaker 1: A model that's improven, like you're about to say, so successful, yeah,
Speaker 1: which we'll get to and then chuck right at this
Speaker 1: point thanks to a a almost exclusively and the idea
Speaker 1: that um, you you can you can treat, you can
Speaker 1: lick it, yeah, you can treat addiction, especially in a
Speaker 1: medical setting. UM. Before the advent of the eighties. UM,
Speaker 1: the the US started throwing money not just that eradicating UH,
Speaker 1: the the supply of illocent substances, but also the demand
Speaker 1: and even more so the demand. Under Nixon, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Dick Nixon put two thirds of his drug kind of
Speaker 1: anti drug policy money toward UH recovery and treatment, which
Speaker 1: is a really kind of a forward thinking thing if
Speaker 1: you think about it in today. For Nixon, you would
Speaker 1: have thought he like, let's throw all of it towards
Speaker 1: locking people up. But Ford came along and read distributed
Speaker 1: that to about a half and half model, half toward
Speaker 1: policing and arresting and trying to get drugs off the street,
Speaker 1: and half towards treating people with the disease. Why is that,
Speaker 1: I chock, it's ironic because you might have heard of
Speaker 1: the Betty Ford Clinic, and that was his wife who
Speaker 1: had a pretty bad pill addiction and alcoholism problem, and
Speaker 1: she started it. She was like, oh, I can get
Speaker 1: clean and I should set up a treatment center. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she did. In Rancho Mirage, California, the Betty Ford
Speaker 1: Clinic UM in two had opened its doors, and that
Speaker 1: I think was one of the models for the current
Speaker 1: incarnation of rehab. That was the first big and I
Speaker 1: know celebrities went there, but that was just the first
Speaker 1: all star treatment center that you heard on the news
Speaker 1: and probably not probably most definitely because her name was
Speaker 1: on it, and it also um her lending her name
Speaker 1: to that treatment facility and admitting that she had been
Speaker 1: addicted to you know, pills and booze um it was.
Speaker 1: It also had a lot of a big effect I
Speaker 1: think on getting people into treatment because she it's it
Speaker 1: was it is still but it was at the time
Speaker 1: even more so such a shameful thing to be addicted
Speaker 1: to something. Um still is, but it's way more accepted now.
Speaker 1: But because in like religious circles, I know, it's still
Speaker 1: pretty pretty shameful. Sure, I would definitely imagine so um
Speaker 1: but but I think hers putting her still, like even
Speaker 1: the first lady can get hooked then, you know, but
Speaker 1: again yeah, and if the first lady can kick it,
Speaker 1: then I can too. You know what other effect it
Speaker 1: had a dobt what people with the name Ford not
Speaker 1: naming their daughters Betty. I'll bet you would name your
Speaker 1: daughter Betty Ford, would you know? Well, I might, but
Speaker 1: I'm kind of a jokey kind of guy. Betty Ford Clark,
Speaker 1: Betty Ford Clinic Clark. That reminds me. Actually, I think
Speaker 1: I might have told you this. My friend Joey used
Speaker 1: to say that if he ever had a son, he
Speaker 1: would name him Thomas Magnum Dorlc. His last name is Dorla.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good I thought was pretty good.
Speaker 1: It's a good name. But he had like three sons
Speaker 1: that didn't name any of them that. So, so he's
Speaker 1: a liar. He's a liar, and he's been called out
Speaker 1: as a liar on that's I don't think he listens. UM.
Speaker 1: Once Reagan got into UH to office, the UM policy
Speaker 1: of UM paying more for policing the supply side than
Speaker 1: paying any attention to the demand side, it was continued. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the war on drugs, the war on drugs in earnest,
Speaker 1: but by this time people were seeing like, Okay, rehab
Speaker 1: can work. It's a viable solution to treating our nation's
Speaker 1: substance abuse problems. And UM it was kind of etched
Speaker 1: in popular culture and then in the American psyche. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it boomed, like private institutions all over the country
Speaker 1: started popping up. Yeah, And I think also that just
Speaker 1: say no campaign, and like the idea of like, you know, drug,
Speaker 1: the drug addiction and how bad it was probably got
Speaker 1: a lot of kids, a lot more kids thrown into
Speaker 1: rehab by their parents than it ever been before. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like thirteen year old to snugs and beer out one night.
Speaker 1: They're all of a a sudden in rehab exactly. I've heard
Speaker 1: stories about that. Didn't you go to high school. I
Speaker 1: did go to high school. So check. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: different types of treatment. There's four really actually three technically four.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I need to change the headings
Speaker 1: of this. I need to switch to chapter headings, I
Speaker 1: realized because it's very misleading. Well, we can do it
Speaker 1: on the fly. I'm gonna start with inpatient. Is that
Speaker 1: still correct? Yeah? Okay, impatient? And this we should point
Speaker 1: out this can take place, um in a private facility,
Speaker 1: it can be in a hospital. Still um. I think
Speaker 1: prison you said is a is a big place for
Speaker 1: a forced rehab. It is technically, um an impatient facility
Speaker 1: very much impatient. Yeah, you're not going anyway what impatient
Speaker 1: is though, just like being a hospital stay, it means
Speaker 1: you're they're living there. Yeah, usually for that twenty eight
Speaker 1: days for any SANDERD. Bullock fans, probably more for this podcast,
Speaker 1: for any Vigo Mortenson fans, twenty eight days, not twenty
Speaker 1: eight days later. The other one was he in twenty
Speaker 1: eight Days Did We Go? Yeah, he played a sex
Speaker 1: addicted like football star or something like that. That's funny.
Speaker 1: I ran into him like three times on one week
Speaker 1: in l A. One time to the point where he
Speaker 1: looked at me and he was like, are you following me?
Speaker 1: I thought he was gonna kill me? So, oh no,
Speaker 1: not Vigo Mortenson. I was thinking he's the creepy guy
Speaker 1: from Buffalo sixty six. Vincent Gallo, Yeah, disregard that whole story.
Speaker 1: I could see him. Yeah, I wouldn't want to run
Speaker 1: into him that third time. I'd be afraid of him
Speaker 1: for thinking anything like that. Have you seen um Hide
Speaker 1: and Seek? Now? It's an awesome movie. It is so twisted, interesting,
Speaker 1: it's a thriller. Uh, Vincent Gallo, Um, Jennifer Tilly is
Speaker 1: excellent in it. Darrell Hannah actually does a really good job.
Speaker 1: That's pretty much the cast and it's um really something.
Speaker 1: I'll have to check that out, all right. So where
Speaker 1: were we? We were impatient we were staying overnight, John,
Speaker 1: just where we were, and that can range, like you said,
Speaker 1: from twenty eight days all the way to basically when
Speaker 1: you need to leave six months a year or when
Speaker 1: your insurance runs out. Yeah, if you're in there for
Speaker 1: a year, then you might be a hopeless case. Well
Speaker 1: that'd be pretty bad. But you really just inspired the
Speaker 1: hearts of a lot of people who have been in
Speaker 1: rehab for eleven months. Just say that, and it can
Speaker 1: be court ordered as well. And they also in some
Speaker 1: of these long term programs can offer you like resocialization
Speaker 1: because imagine being in a rehab clinic for three or
Speaker 1: four months, six months, they're they're like keep your milk
Speaker 1: and a refrigerator or failing that, a cool wet sack
Speaker 1: out patient is next. That's UM basically where you go
Speaker 1: in to visit on a set schedule. It could be
Speaker 1: daily UM. But you're you're doing your regular life, you're
Speaker 1: sleeping at home, you're going to work, and then probably
Speaker 1: in between work and going to sleep, you're spending a
Speaker 1: significant amount of time time UM in counseling, in group sessions,
Speaker 1: twelve step maybe receiving medication. Methodone treatment usually takes the
Speaker 1: form of outpatient treatment, and that's actually one of the
Speaker 1: longest treatments apparently is um is methodone, prescription methodone treatments
Speaker 1: for yeah, to get you off of the white pony. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Whenever I see those on the documentaries, it's it's very
Speaker 1: much outpatient. Like you literally see the junkie walk up
Speaker 1: to the window to get his daily dose or her
Speaker 1: of methodone. Lastly, there's partial hospitalization. Um. This is basically
Speaker 1: the opposite of outpatient right. Um, well, it's not the opposite,
Speaker 1: but it's pretty close. Rather than go to work from
Speaker 1: nine to five, um, and then go to rehab, you
Speaker 1: go to rehab from like nine to five during the day,
Speaker 1: but you you stay at home and all that. Now,
Speaker 1: what's I don't understand the difference between that and outpatients.
Speaker 1: Outpatient you're just not necessarily there all day. You might
Speaker 1: go for like your two hour meeting and leave every day, yes, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: whereas like partial hospitalizations, you're spending way more time there
Speaker 1: during the partial hospitalization and treatment because you know, um,
Speaker 1: after work. For outpatient, you're there for maybe a couple
Speaker 1: of hours, three hours, but it's like a part of
Speaker 1: your day instead of going home and sitting on the
Speaker 1: couch and watching TV. You're going to rehab or going
Speaker 1: to happy with with you don't want to do that, Well, no,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. I mean, oh yeah, we're going. Yeah,
Speaker 1: after work. It's probably a good time for a lot
Speaker 1: of people because a lot of people associate the five
Speaker 1: o'clock bell ringing with that first drink exactly, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure that's a huge part of it as well. Partial
Speaker 1: hospitalization is where you're spending your days in rehab and
Speaker 1: then you go home. That is your job. Yes, your
Speaker 1: job is to get well. Prison. You mentioned prison or
Speaker 1: I did, And when they do this in prison, they
Speaker 1: take you out of the general population typically, didn't we
Speaker 1: have somebody right in after the prison? Um? Yeah? The
Speaker 1: listener mail on prisons, the guy was like, it's the
Speaker 1: it was the easiest place to score drugs and then
Speaker 1: I've ever been was prison. Yeah, so they I think
Speaker 1: that's kind of cool though. It shows like a real
Speaker 1: dedication to um rehab among prisons by by taking the
Speaker 1: people away rather than pretending like there's not a problem exactly.
Speaker 1: And I could actually see that being the case where
Speaker 1: they said, no, we're rehabing people, but they're you know,
Speaker 1: getting drugs being passed between the bars and readily and
Speaker 1: other things. It's key stirred. So, Chuck, let's talk about treatment. Technically,
Speaker 1: I would call this one how rehab works. I wanted
Speaker 1: to switch those two children, because really types of treatment
Speaker 1: was what we just talked about, right, and then how
Speaker 1: rehab works is what we're about to talk about. I
Speaker 1: just don't know how that got passed. Well it did.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about how rehab works. Man. Well, it's
Speaker 1: a long process. Don't expect to be out of there
Speaker 1: in a week, although that one program that you point
Speaker 1: out says they can do it in six days, which
Speaker 1: one six months? Oh six months program? Yeah it was
Speaker 1: that or six weeks, six weeks, I'm sorry, Okay, six weeks, Chuck.
Speaker 1: So I would say, don't plan on spending more than
Speaker 1: like a week in your rehabilitation clinic, would be my guess. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: you can. Also, we we failed to mention e r
Speaker 1: S can technically be an inpatient rehab that lasts long
Speaker 1: enough to get you over your withdrawals or to bring
Speaker 1: you back to life from an acute drug overdose. So
Speaker 1: if you are taken to the hospital odeed they'll keep
Speaker 1: you there as long as you're physically or until you're
Speaker 1: physically well, yes, which can drug that can yeah, it
Speaker 1: can rehabilitate you, I mean you can, yeah, but so
Speaker 1: it can last for as little as several hours, like
Speaker 1: you said, months and months, possibly a year, right, but yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody who buys into the brain disease model of addiction says, okay,
Speaker 1: because of this, there's there's a lot of facets to addiction,
Speaker 1: which means there's a lot of facets to rehabilitation. It's
Speaker 1: gonna take a while, yeah, yeah, yeah, but step one
Speaker 1: is always just withdrawal, get the drugs out of your
Speaker 1: body and get clean physically. Um. And you're not gonna
Speaker 1: have any physical withdrawal from behavioral addiction compulsive behavior, but
Speaker 1: you're still probably going to have a rough time at first,
Speaker 1: you know, with the desire to do that. Um, when
Speaker 1: you are stable, I guess, and probably before you're stable,
Speaker 1: you're probably going to be introduced to a twelve step
Speaker 1: program of some sort. Right now, did a A create
Speaker 1: the twelve step? Yes? Okay, yeah, there was no such
Speaker 1: thing as the twelve step before that. But there's all
Speaker 1: sorts of variations on the twelve step. Now, yeah, and
Speaker 1: one of the things, like we were saying, a A
Speaker 1: is incredibly successful. It's been study after study after study
Speaker 1: done on A A and um any kind of UM
Speaker 1: relapse associated with the people who go through it, and
Speaker 1: UM it's a very successful program. But it's also very
Speaker 1: criticized often because one it's criticized for being too indulgent
Speaker 1: on the addics ego right like this is not your fault,
Speaker 1: it's all okay, or if you go through these steps,
Speaker 1: you're going to be a great person. Um. And it's
Speaker 1: also very reliant on a belief in God. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think there's it's not like a Christian God or
Speaker 1: Judeo Christian God or any specific god. But I think
Speaker 1: they call it like a higher power. And there's plenty
Speaker 1: of atheist addicts out there, well they call it. I
Speaker 1: actually looked at the original twelve steps today and they
Speaker 1: say the word God in four of the twelve steps.
Speaker 1: But on the before that first mention of God, it
Speaker 1: says God as you understand him to be. So that's
Speaker 1: the little caveat like we're not saying, like like you said,
Speaker 1: the Judeo Christian God must be the one, but they
Speaker 1: definitely say you've got to have a higher power here
Speaker 1: or else. That's not gonna work, right. And the problem
Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of people whose conception of
Speaker 1: God is that they understand him to be non existent
Speaker 1: or that I am God. Right. Yeah, Um, there was
Speaker 1: like a joke that just flitted right through my prefrontal cortex.
Speaker 1: It wasn't funny, um, So chuck, Narcotics Anonymous, I believe,
Speaker 1: and some others, but most notably Narcotics Anonymous UM has
Speaker 1: adjusted the twelve step model to accommodate atheists as well.
Speaker 1: And you know, I bet regular a eight meetings or
Speaker 1: a little less centered on that. Now, that would be
Speaker 1: my guess. They probably wouldn't refuse you at the door
Speaker 1: if you said you were an atheist. Oh, I don't
Speaker 1: think they refuse you. I don't think it's it's to
Speaker 1: think what they're what they're saying is like, if you're
Speaker 1: an atheist and you don't buy into the God thing, like,
Speaker 1: you're not going to be as successful as somebody who does,
Speaker 1: because part of his like giving it over to this
Speaker 1: higher power. So I don't think that they're exclusive or
Speaker 1: anything like that. I think that it's like atheists aren't
Speaker 1: going to do as well. All right, they didn't studies
Speaker 1: on that winder. I'm sure they have. I didn't go
Speaker 1: to that detail though, It's okay. CBC is that next
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral counseling, which is psychotherapy, and that is when
Speaker 1: they I mean, they can treat mental disorders, they can
Speaker 1: treat depression PTSD, and basically they're they're trying to eradicate
Speaker 1: addiction from the life of someone by looking at their
Speaker 1: behavior very thoroughly. That's most, um, most therapy that anyone
Speaker 1: goes in for these days is cognitive behavior therapy. It's
Speaker 1: like one of the most prevalent um and yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's looking at behavior first of all. It's recognizing the
Speaker 1: patterns of behavior, especially destructive patterns of behavior, and then
Speaker 1: figuring out why you're doing that and then eradicating it. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it's this multi step process. Um. CBC is less
Speaker 1: effective according to studies as twelve step programs by itself,
Speaker 1: either one by themselves. Uh, twelve step usually beats cognitive
Speaker 1: behavior behavioral counseling. Right, yes, what about meds. Well, if
Speaker 1: you know you need MADS like methodone to get through
Speaker 1: your treatment, then your rehab centers probably gonna have them
Speaker 1: for you or and A. Depressants are a big one too,
Speaker 1: And one of the things that's very effective is identifying,
Speaker 1: usually through cbc UM other underlying comorbid conditions, like if
Speaker 1: you have a binge eating disorder or you are depressed
Speaker 1: and an alcoholic. Treating those two things simultaneously in the
Speaker 1: same umbrella has been shown to provide the most success. Sure,
Speaker 1: because if you're depressed and you can't get treatment for alcoholism,
Speaker 1: if you're suffering through depression, and just leave the depression
Speaker 1: alone because you're probably an alcoholic because of your depression,
Speaker 1: probably or it could be because you're an alcoholic, if
Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that carrying your alcoholism will carry
Speaker 1: your depression, if you've gone into a clinical degree of depression,
Speaker 1: right like a chicken or the egg kind of scenario. Yes,
Speaker 1: to get to the other side. And acupuncture, Josh, you
Speaker 1: mentioned a few non traditional methods. Acupuncture is one of them.
Speaker 1: Have you ever done that? I have not, have you
Speaker 1: It's awesome, Yes, I can imagine. It's one of the
Speaker 1: most relaxing things I've ever done in my life. Actually,
Speaker 1: I went to a place in l a that had
Speaker 1: it was a school where you could get really cheap acupuncture.
Speaker 1: Was Vincent Gallow Your acupuncture was actually but he used nails,
Speaker 1: Tinpenny nails. It's very relaxing. It's not painful at all.
Speaker 1: If you're a little weirded out by needles, because I'm
Speaker 1: I'm totally freaked out by needles, but it's not like that.
Speaker 1: I'm freaked out about them not um thoroughly cleaning their
Speaker 1: needles enough. I've heard accusations of that other new though
Speaker 1: not all the time. The ones I got were taking
Speaker 1: out a little package. They're right in front of me. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I'm sure like most of them, but there's ones out
Speaker 1: there they're just like, yeah, just used some other guy
Speaker 1: because I'm cheap. If they're wiping blood off the end
Speaker 1: of them, I wouldn't get that. If you are a scientologist,
Speaker 1: you might go in for l Ron's um patented addiction treatment.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll call it. Yeah, it's like a vitamin regimen
Speaker 1: and exercise sauna sauna as part of it. Um what
Speaker 1: else the Jude Daddy Is program we talked about that, Uh, nomads,
Speaker 1: no meads at all, And I got when I don't
Speaker 1: remember because I didn't go back and look, but I
Speaker 1: got the impression that this they're kind of this is
Speaker 1: something of a closely guarded secret, and it may or
Speaker 1: may not be viewed suspiciously by conventional rehabs. But they
Speaker 1: boast a six success rate for their six weeks days.
Speaker 1: And yeah, they don't they don't use meds. It's all
Speaker 1: just like you were bad. You're a bad person, can
Speaker 1: they They're like, you eat like this, and they push
Speaker 1: your head down into a dog bowl and then they
Speaker 1: do a clockwork orange movie viewing experience, right, and then
Speaker 1: six weeks later you're like, I'll never do that again, Josh.
Speaker 1: Let's say you love Eastern medicine and things like acupuncture
Speaker 1: and you're afraid that if you go into your traditional
Speaker 1: rehab clinic that they won't oblige to those kinds of things.
Speaker 1: That that is that a worry that you should worry about.
Speaker 1: It depends on how much money you have. Really, Yeah,
Speaker 1: some of the higher end ones will um combine a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, even cool stuff like helicopter rides or
Speaker 1: wilderness survival, based on the idea that um things like
Speaker 1: wilderness survival can can show you how self reliant you
Speaker 1: can be. Um or. A helicopter ride is meant to
Speaker 1: just be like, Wow, look how beautiful life is even
Speaker 1: without booze um or. Yeah, maybe acupuncture, spot treatments things
Speaker 1: like that, Like the higher end you go, that more
Speaker 1: pleasurable the experience is going to be. I imagine, I'm
Speaker 1: glad that works. But when I hear something like that,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, look how beautiful that the world
Speaker 1: looks from a helicopter flight along the shore of the
Speaker 1: Pacific coast, Like you don't need drugs to witness this,
Speaker 1: but you need a helicopter. Yeah, yeah, exactly, you come
Speaker 1: out like hooked on helicopter. I guess they're what they're
Speaker 1: looking for is just to inspire you with that notion
Speaker 1: that yeah, I don't need it. So um, I agree
Speaker 1: with you, though I think that's trying to be funny. No,
Speaker 1: but it was funny and true, Chuck, which is the
Speaker 1: best kind um there? This stuff actually does work. As
Speaker 1: we said, people have been studying the stuff since they
Speaker 1: started in the eighties, um, And one of the things
Speaker 1: that they found that the most effective kind of treatment
Speaker 1: is rehab where you are sequestered away or you have
Speaker 1: some form of rehabilitation treatment. Right UM, a twelve step group,
Speaker 1: and weekly counseling like cognitive every counts throwing everything at it. UM.
Speaker 1: Meds are not necessarily included in that, but UM being
Speaker 1: part of a group, especially twelve step group plus counseling
Speaker 1: plus a stint at rehab UM is the most successful.
Speaker 1: Is far as the rate of relapse goes to the
Speaker 1: tune of eighty seven percent. The Target Cities Project study quoted.
Speaker 1: If you do all those three things, that's an eighty
Speaker 1: seven percent chance of not relapsing after six months. Yes,
Speaker 1: and get this, this is surprising to me. I remember
Speaker 1: this when you factor in treatment drop out to people
Speaker 1: who just you know, we're like they were like, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna stay the whole twenty eight days, but I'm
Speaker 1: gonna keep going to a weekly twelve step meeting and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to counseling five times a week, which
Speaker 1: is a lot. Oh yeah. Um. They still had a
Speaker 1: success rate the abstinence rate with SEV so even without treatment,
Speaker 1: Yeah no, no, and then at sixty actually it keeps
Speaker 1: going down if you complete the treatment program aspect, but
Speaker 1: you didn't go to the twelve step meetings and you
Speaker 1: did go to counseling. So the two out of the
Speaker 1: three minus the twelve step, you have a sixty two
Speaker 1: percent chance. Right, So the twelve step, as they found
Speaker 1: is is the most significant, followed closely by UM individual
Speaker 1: counseling Yeah, usually CBC UM. And what they found is
Speaker 1: that a person who goes to four twelve Steps sessions
Speaker 1: a month or one even one counts individual counseling session
Speaker 1: from a month more than anybody else has a better
Speaker 1: chance of of success in in remaining abstinate. Well, that
Speaker 1: says that these work. These programs work. They actually do work.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing they work best. Again. Studies show
Speaker 1: when the person is ready and willing to give up
Speaker 1: this behavior. Yeah, that's what they always say. When you know,
Speaker 1: you've got to be ready to change anything in your
Speaker 1: life in order for that to change. And that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Otherwise you're just going to be You're just doing it
Speaker 1: for your your parents, or your wife or your husband,
Speaker 1: and if it's not coming from you, then good luck.
Speaker 1: Do you know what's funny though, what's that I just
Speaker 1: realized this That was conventional thinking. But with the advent
Speaker 1: of prison rehab, yeah, new information. Studies have also shown
Speaker 1: that UM if you force someone into rehab in prison specifically, UM,
Speaker 1: they will still there's they still have a pretty high
Speaker 1: success rate and abstinence rate and even a lower rate
Speaker 1: of recitativism recidivism. Right, it's a bone head word. Yes,
Speaker 1: you're right. Oh was that the end? Well, and to
Speaker 1: that tune, Josh. They've now got these awesome situations called
Speaker 1: drug courts where they pass out drugs you take before
Speaker 1: your sence. H. Drug courts actually are when UM it's
Speaker 1: set up specifically for drug cases and instead of putting
Speaker 1: you in jail, they sent it to you to treatment programs.
Speaker 1: And out of the of people in treatment programs in
Speaker 1: the United States were referred there by the courts into
Speaker 1: and for Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah, let's talk. Let's
Speaker 1: talk some stats, buddy. UM in two thousand eight, so
Speaker 1: I wrote this, and I think two thousands seven maybe, yeah,
Speaker 1: And UM, the I think that the most recent statistics
Speaker 1: I could get, we're about two thousand five. So it
Speaker 1: was about three point nine million people in two thousand
Speaker 1: five that went in for treatment. UH. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight it was pretty much the same four million
Speaker 1: UM people in the US aged twelve or older, UM
Speaker 1: went for treatment for drugs or alcohol or possibly both. Right, Um.
Speaker 1: Of that four million people, that was a fifth of
Speaker 1: the estimated people who were current illicit drug users in
Speaker 1: the US in that same year, So not very many
Speaker 1: people are going to rehab. No, But I also wonder, like,
Speaker 1: what what percentage of that twenty million illicit current drug users,
Speaker 1: which are people to admit to have used who to
Speaker 1: have used a drug within the past month, aged twelve
Speaker 1: year older, Uh, admitted to using pots and just pot? Right? Sure,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think they take you at rehab
Speaker 1: for pot. Oh, no, they do, do they really? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's pot. There's pot marijuana specific rehabilitation groups. I don't
Speaker 1: know about clinics where you actually stay, but I know
Speaker 1: there's there's there's marijuana addiction groups for sure. I did
Speaker 1: not know that. Yeah. Seventeen million though, Hold on, this
Speaker 1: is a much better stat seventeen million heavy drinkers in
Speaker 1: the US age UM twelve year older. I wonder how
Speaker 1: many of the twenty million and the seventeen million overlap. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: you mentioned four million, and you said some were in
Speaker 1: there for both. You actually had the stat um one
Speaker 1: point three million out of the four million. We're in
Speaker 1: there for both drugs and alcohol. Point eight million for
Speaker 1: just drugs and one point six million for just alcohol.
Speaker 1: So what does that say about what's the uh, the
Speaker 1: real gateway drug I don't know, because we talked about that,
Speaker 1: remember during the Prohibition podcast, and I predicted that if problem.
Speaker 1: I think I predicted you. You didn't necessarily agree that
Speaker 1: prohibition has taught us that if you legalize something, if
Speaker 1: you prohibit something, that makes it more forbidden. But apparently
Speaker 1: it's not the case. No, I agree with that. Well,
Speaker 1: these numbers show different. I mean alcohol you can get everywhere.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's and it's clearly a big problem. That's true.
Speaker 1: Maybe we're both wrong. Maybe let's talk about money, because
Speaker 1: these things ain't cheap necessarily when you look at the
Speaker 1: grand total, and especially if you want to meet Eric Clapton,
Speaker 1: it's not cheap. Uh. In two thousand two, Josh, the
Speaker 1: average cost of a program was about four hundred bucks
Speaker 1: residential at thirty eight hundred and outpatient and method on
Speaker 1: treatment for seventy undred dollars for the average cost of
Speaker 1: a full treatment program. And that's on the that's the
Speaker 1: average costs. They go up, you know, considerably if you're
Speaker 1: interested in the luxury tour, right. UM, I had down
Speaker 1: that promises from or not promises UM Crossroads, which was
Speaker 1: founded by Eric Clapton's in the West Indies in Antigua. Um,
Speaker 1: there's fifteen grand per month. Apparently it's gone up since
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. It's now nineteen five a month.
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, it's a lot of money. That is
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of money, but it is far and
Speaker 1: away not as expensive as the most expensive one that
Speaker 1: I found that you found, I should say, um is
Speaker 1: the Sanctuary Enviyron Bay, Australia. Holy cow, I didn't see that.
Speaker 1: Eighteen thousand, five hundred dollars per week, per week a week.
Speaker 1: So Clapton's is nineteen thousand, five hundred for a month.
Speaker 1: It's a bargain. Passages in Malibu is forty to fifty
Speaker 1: grand a month. Promises which you've all heard of because
Speaker 1: been Affleck and Robert Downey Jr. Had a lovely stay there,
Speaker 1: among others, thirty three thousand per month and they've you know,
Speaker 1: they've all had their roster of celebrities depending on where
Speaker 1: you live. Yeah, and isn't that just isn't that kind
Speaker 1: of odd if you step back and look at it,
Speaker 1: like like, celebrity and rehab is just their hand in hand.
Speaker 1: Our fascination with both are equal well and in earlier
Speaker 1: career publicity wise, So sure, ken which is weird. It
Speaker 1: is weird. It's also weird when you look at the
Speaker 1: fact that it says, uh, it's there's like a one
Speaker 1: to one correlation of how how luxurious the rehab is
Speaker 1: and what list a list or be list your honest
Speaker 1: sen actor because promises, like I said, Charlie Sheen, been Affleck,
Speaker 1: Robert Downey and then you work your way down to
Speaker 1: uh Cottonwood in Tucson at a mirror, thousand dollars per
Speaker 1: day has had the likes of Rowan Atkinson and Spice
Speaker 1: Girl Jerry Halliwell, thousand dollars per day is still that
Speaker 1: ain't cheap? Okay? I take that back, then, Rowan Atkinson's
Speaker 1: making some cheese. Apparently I didn't know that Mr Bean
Speaker 1: went to rehab. I didn't either, And we shouldn't make
Speaker 1: fun of Jerry Halliwell, because the Spice Girls are the
Speaker 1: best selling female band of all time, is the right?
Speaker 1: That was one of her tribute questions so it took
Speaker 1: people are um kind of like, yes, yes, celebrities can
Speaker 1: afford this. What if I'm an average Joe who's trying
Speaker 1: to kick the dope. Well, insurance can cover a lot
Speaker 1: of it. It used to cover even more. It used
Speaker 1: to be about thirty was paid by insurance right um.
Speaker 1: And then by two thousand three, UM, the burden of
Speaker 1: cost had shifted away from not just the insurers, which
Speaker 1: we're paying about eight percent, and not even the patients
Speaker 1: who were paying just ten percent, but to the state
Speaker 1: generally society taxpayers. Medicaids started picking up a lot of
Speaker 1: the tab, up to sixty percent of the tab and um,
Speaker 1: so let's say seventy percent between the insurance company, medicaid
Speaker 1: and the patient, and then the rest was being picked
Speaker 1: up um by um other state agencies. Uh. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: the burden of cost shifted to the society, which made
Speaker 1: a lot of people start to wonder, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, what are we doing here? Right? And
Speaker 1: so the cost benefit analysis was born as far as
Speaker 1: rehab goes, right. So there's something to that though when
Speaker 1: you look at the fact that in two thousand three,
Speaker 1: uh twenty billion dollars and change was spent in all. Overall,
Speaker 1: Medicaid picked up six of that, so about twelve or so.
Speaker 1: And you think that's a lot of money, twelve billion dollars.
Speaker 1: But they did a study that they looked at the debt,
Speaker 1: the cost of alcohol and an illicit drug use, including
Speaker 1: tobacco tobaco, uh, and that includes healthcare, crime, property, theft,
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Prison, prison, billion dollars and two thousand
Speaker 1: two alone. That's so okay. So twelve billion paid by
Speaker 1: the state to offset five billion in cost to society.
Speaker 1: That's a pretty good deal. But well, that's what I think.
Speaker 1: You get some of these people healthy. They might not
Speaker 1: be robbing you, they might not be crashing their car
Speaker 1: into your loved ones, they might not be uh stealing
Speaker 1: things and go into prison, and you're footing the bill
Speaker 1: for all that. There was a study by the National
Speaker 1: Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholics that also found that
Speaker 1: um for every dollar spent on rehab, three dollars received
Speaker 1: in uh larger cost to society, which is not bad.
Speaker 1: It's pretty good return on investments. What they call that. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know when you break down those numbers sound
Speaker 1: expensive and obviously the luxury places are expensive no matter
Speaker 1: who you are. But I think they also skew the
Speaker 1: average quite a bit as well. Yeah. Um, but if
Speaker 1: you look at a per visit treatment average cost, it's
Speaker 1: really not that bad. Out paid outpatient on methodone treatments
Speaker 1: are about twenty six bucks per visit. That's the one
Speaker 1: where you go to work and then go to rehab
Speaker 1: after work, right, non hospital residential treatments, it's like promises
Speaker 1: and in Crossroads seventy six dollars per day on average.
Speaker 1: That's including every place. That's including like the place in
Speaker 1: the back of Joe's crab Jack where they lock you
Speaker 1: up for twenty eight days to you know, the place
Speaker 1: in Byron Bay, Australia. So but when you break it
Speaker 1: down like that, it's not that much money now and
Speaker 1: even more so um methodone, which you will remember the
Speaker 1: average is about sucks in two thousand two. It's also
Speaker 1: the longest um overall, the longest treatment overall, and that
Speaker 1: broke down to seventeen dollars and seventy eight cents per
Speaker 1: visit to get somebody off of the dope, which is
Speaker 1: pretty I think that's worth investing in, and that includes
Speaker 1: the methodon too. Right, the actual Yeah, that's the whole,
Speaker 1: the whole shebangah um. And then Chuck, there's also the
Speaker 1: human uh expense that you're you're you're saving that cost
Speaker 1: and invest in treating addicts. Right. Um. There was a
Speaker 1: study by Biotie I think that said that there are
Speaker 1: twelve million alcoholics in the United States roughly, right, And
Speaker 1: if you consider that each alcoholic has a spouse, possibly children,
Speaker 1: and family in some way, uh say, five people that
Speaker 1: are in that alcoholics life, that means that sixty million
Speaker 1: Americans are affected by alcoholism and affected not in good ways. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm possibly creating new alcoholics for future generations to pay
Speaker 1: for two. Yeah, you gotta think about that. So, Chuck,
Speaker 1: I would say that that is the end of the
Speaker 1: addiction rehabilitation trifecta. Actually, you know what we should mention though.
Speaker 1: Did you read A Million Little Pieces, the book by
Speaker 1: James Fry that was the specifically told by Oprah not
Speaker 1: to read. Well, that's the deal is. That was the
Speaker 1: infamous bestseller about a memoir quote unquote memoir about um
Speaker 1: one young man's stay in rehab and it is awesome.
Speaker 1: It was found out afterward famously to not be true.
Speaker 1: After Oprah had said it was the best memoir she'd
Speaker 1: ever read, and um, so if he took a lot
Speaker 1: of heat over that. I read the book and it's
Speaker 1: amazing and you should read it. I wrote the guy
Speaker 1: letter saying, dude, I don't care whether it's true or not.
Speaker 1: Just call it a novel and call it great. And
Speaker 1: he was like, thanks, man, I really appreciate that he
Speaker 1: wrote you back. Yeah, a letter and that well an email.
Speaker 1: So I recommend people read it. Just don't get all
Speaker 1: mad and today this isn't true. Just considered a novel,
Speaker 1: and a very good novel at that. That's what I said. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's really really good. And for every dollar um spent
Speaker 1: on James price book, a million little pieces, Chuck, it's
Speaker 1: fifty of that. Which so if you want to learn
Speaker 1: more about addiction, rehab, prohibition, any thing like that, type
Speaker 1: those words into the search bar at how stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com and will bring up some delightful articles. And uh,
Speaker 1: it's time now at long last listener meal, Josh, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna call this email from a new twelve year old fan.
Speaker 1: I saw this one from Emma, or maybe that was
Speaker 1: Emma's mother's email address. I'm not sure. But it said, Emma,
Speaker 1: no kids these days, they have their own email. Uh hi,
Speaker 1: Josh and Chuckers and Jerry. I don't know when I
Speaker 1: can do this, but I'm going to donate to Kiva.
Speaker 1: I'm twelve years old and I'm going to get a
Speaker 1: job walking dogs and babysitting, etcetera. As soon as I
Speaker 1: do get twenty five dollars, I will donate it. But
Speaker 1: to get the job, I have to print flyers to
Speaker 1: pass out. To print flyers, we need to buy ink.
Speaker 1: To buy ink, we need extra money. That isn't going
Speaker 1: to stuff we need right now. But you do have
Speaker 1: to break a few eggs to make an omelet. Emma.
Speaker 1: That's right. And if you want to work at the
Speaker 1: omelet station, especially if you want to be the squire
Speaker 1: of the OLEMT, that's right. You gotta break a few eggs.
Speaker 1: But please read this part on the podcast, guys. Whenever
Speaker 1: it happens, I am going to save up the money
Speaker 1: because I'm getting this babysitting job, babysitting snotty nose kids,
Speaker 1: so I can give this money to Kiva and tell
Speaker 1: everyone if they have no excuse, if you have a
Speaker 1: real job. That was from Emma and thank you very much. Emma.
Speaker 1: I think my hat is off to you, Chuck. We're
Speaker 1: wearing a cap. He would tip it. If you're one
Speaker 1: of Emma's neighbors, please forgive her for her description of
Speaker 1: your kids and hire her anyway because it's going to
Speaker 1: go toward a good cause. That's right, right, um. And
Speaker 1: if Emma can do this, you can do this too.
Speaker 1: If you want to donate to the donate heck, Lynn,
Speaker 1: you get the money back if you want, yeah uh
Speaker 1: in twenty five dollar increments. You can go onto www
Speaker 1: dot k i v a dot org slash team lash stuff.
Speaker 1: You should know. Join our team, leave some messages on
Speaker 1: the message board, make some donations, have a good time,
Speaker 1: right agreed. And if you want to email us to
Speaker 1: let us know what you're doing to save the world,
Speaker 1: whether it be dog walking or babysitting, snot knows kids
Speaker 1: or what have you, we want to hear about it
Speaker 1: in an email. Send it to Stuff podcast at how
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands
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