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Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for

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Speaker 1: every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. How is

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Speaker 1: it you guys were in Hawaii for so long? You're

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Speaker 1: both like still, I was thinking exact same thing. We

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Speaker 1: have full fucking wet suits in our faces, are in

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Speaker 1: the water, all right? Yeah, Plus you weren't there. We

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Speaker 1: weren't there, Jay dicking around on the beat, Steve and

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Speaker 1: I were standing out doing the cooking yesterday or just

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Speaker 1: like came to the conclusion that the sun over there

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Speaker 1: is just an evil evil yea, yeah, like they're something

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Speaker 1: about it that just like simultaneously cakes salt onto you,

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Speaker 1: sucks the moisture out of you, and the sun that

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Speaker 1: makes you want to shower right away. Yeah. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: you got like a dorsal tan you'd come up? Is

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Speaker 1: that right? Except for I had I don't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of coverage on my head anymore, so full full

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Speaker 1: hood just for the sun. Yeah, I can tell you

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Speaker 1: sufficient stories to curl your hair, Brody, let's hear him.

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Speaker 1: Come on, wait, we are recording. We should start with that,

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Speaker 1: start with this, let's star with this. Okay, joined today? Uh,

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Speaker 1: Drew Landum, who man, We've been trying to get you

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Speaker 1: on for a long time, but we got kind of like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're aware of this, we got

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Speaker 1: waylaid by COVID. What what was that? Oh? So you

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Speaker 1: know he's over now, not not quite over it, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know it's it's been a while, but glad to

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Speaker 1: finally be out year. Yeah, we're talking about it a

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Speaker 1: long time ago and originally came from we were reading

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Speaker 1: your your book, which now it's like a two thousand

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Speaker 1: and sixteen memoir. So I was reading a little bit late.

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Speaker 1: But Julianna A. Burder In ornithologist, professional professor of Wildlife

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Speaker 1: Ecology at Clemson University, author and poet, and uh, is

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Speaker 1: this your this is your most recent book, the Home Place. No,

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Speaker 1: there's a book of poetry, got it called Sparrow windvy

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Speaker 1: Field Guide The Birds and Lesser Beasts. So that came

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Speaker 1: out two thousand twenty one. And I also got a

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Speaker 1: little book of poetry on a place called Edisto Island

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Speaker 1: that you might be familiar with down on the coast

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Speaker 1: of South Carolina, with two fellow poets. We call ourselves

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Speaker 1: the pluf Mud Poets, so like a school of poetry. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, the three of us. And then working on

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Speaker 1: about three other books, so excellent. I got some stuff

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Speaker 1: going on his two thousand six team memoir Um, which

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Speaker 1: we read and we're gonna try to have Drew on

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Speaker 1: and then one thing let do. Another is uh the

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Speaker 1: Home Place Memoirs of a Colored Man's Love Affair with Nature.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna dig it on that. We had to.

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Speaker 1: I had to cut Cal and Drew off because they

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Speaker 1: started talking about what's up with quail in the South um,

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Speaker 1: and I got really interested. So we're gonna return to

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Speaker 1: that in a minute. And it also I want to

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Speaker 1: point out explain to people your necklace, which is the

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Speaker 1: coolest necklace I've seen a long time. Yeah, it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's a raven skull. It's a miniature raven skull that's

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Speaker 1: carved out of white tailed deer antler. So ravens are

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Speaker 1: kind of, I don't know, totem sort of for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, large black beings that like to play, all right,

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Speaker 1: So that's that's what I did. A couple of a

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Speaker 1: couple of things to watch out for if you're in

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Speaker 1: a in a viewing mood. Uh. Dark Cam Dinners with

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Speaker 1: Jean Paul Bourgeois is back for season two. Follow him

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Speaker 1: and his crew as they dive deep into their duck

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Speaker 1: season in Louisiana, getting after great duck hunting and cooking

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Speaker 1: up some badass meals at the camp along the way.

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Speaker 1: And then we have I'm working on an episode. We're

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Speaker 1: in the editing process on an episode we do with

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Speaker 1: John Paul Don Louisiana, which is a hell of a

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Speaker 1: good time and a lot of fun. I went crayfishing too,

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Speaker 1: So stay tuned for all that. Cal Cal's got something

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Speaker 1: to plug. Oh, we've been talking a lot about our

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Speaker 1: block management access appreciation program that is tied into i

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Speaker 1: would say, our overall access pillar here at on the

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Speaker 1: conservation side of Meat Eater. Uh so it falls in

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Speaker 1: there with our land access initiative. But we purchased a

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Speaker 1: forty six steel chainsaws, forty six visa check cards, randomly

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Speaker 1: drew forty six participating landowners in Montana's private land public

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Speaker 1: access program which is called block management, and we showed

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Speaker 1: up on a bunch of folks doore steps and just

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Speaker 1: said thank you on behalf of hunters for being part

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Speaker 1: of the program. There's about seven million acres enrolled, seven

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Speaker 1: million private acres enrolled, some of which gives or provides

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Speaker 1: access to a lot of landlocked public land as well.

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Speaker 1: And it's it is a great program. Every state has

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Speaker 1: one like it. And you can hear one of the

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Speaker 1: most fun projects I think Phil and I have got

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Speaker 1: to do, which was listened to a bunch of landowners

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Speaker 1: candidly talking about the program and and having a little

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Speaker 1: conversation with me while on the road dropping off these

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Speaker 1: thank you packages. Um. And that's on Col's Weeken review

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Speaker 1: if you want to listen to that just to get

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Speaker 1: an idea of you know, what we've been doing over here.

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Speaker 1: Episode one. I need to figure out if you dropped

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Speaker 1: off any gifts that the b m A. I want

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Speaker 1: to antelope on that exactly on to throw out of that.

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Speaker 1: And there's a big coffee big covied in there that

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Speaker 1: said if you volunteer to drop things off, do not

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Speaker 1: ask for hunting access. This is the last time these

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Speaker 1: landowners are gonna see a hunter. Well, I got you

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Speaker 1: and not be asked for something. This was a thank

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Speaker 1: you mission only and it was It was great. Lots

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Speaker 1: of good interactions, lots of good feedback on the program

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Speaker 1: and and uh just gave a good perspective that you

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Speaker 1: don't get every day. On the other side of the fence.

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Speaker 1: Cal's we Can Review you can you can find anywhere. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening to this right now, use the same

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Speaker 1: platform and switch over to Cal's Weeken review and here

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Speaker 1: uh Cal's weekly show also Sabretooth um on YouTube on

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Speaker 1: a YouTube channel Sabretooth with Kevin Gillespie. Go check out

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Speaker 1: there um where he cooks up a scimitar horned orcs.

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Speaker 1: And that is an animal we covered on an episode

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Speaker 1: of our own show called Cuddled the Scimitar. Is that

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Speaker 1: what we called that show? Yeah, we did, And uh, Steve,

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Speaker 1: there's it's a cute photo floating out there of me

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Speaker 1: cuddling a simitar hornworks. Then they killed an eight No, no,

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Speaker 1: not yet, not yet. I mean maybe it'll be a

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Speaker 1: ship back to uh Chad. Maybe it's got strong genes,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, it's a very cute photo. H Our Campfire

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Speaker 1: Stories is out right now, the second installing the Campfire Stories.

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Speaker 1: And so we're already beating people's doors down, and I'm

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Speaker 1: talking to you, you folks, you listeners. We're starting to

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Speaker 1: collect stufford for three, volume three, so we had most

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Speaker 1: recently we released It's Kicking Ass. Who's Burnet Brown? We're

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Speaker 1: beating Burnet Brown. I don't know who it is. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure how many listeners of this podcast who Burnet Brown?

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Speaker 1: But are a lot of Americans know who Bernie Brown? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know when you send out that it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a woman. I'm gonna venture to say that if

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Speaker 1: you're the in a relationship not listening to Burnee Brown,

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Speaker 1: you've been told to listen to ye. So our audio

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Speaker 1: book was whooping her audio book? Is that you're telling me? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: It's good, like to hear that. Um. When it came out,

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Speaker 1: it was like it was, you know, like in the trending.

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Speaker 1: It hit all the top top super tops and we're

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Speaker 1: out looking for new ones. Now I'm onto a hot

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Speaker 1: lead from I don't want to spoil it. I'm on

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Speaker 1: a hot lead from someone who's been in this room

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Speaker 1: who was I don't want to tell too much of

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Speaker 1: the story, because then we're going to start guessing it's

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Speaker 1: a little teaser. OK, let's say had front row seats too.

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Speaker 1: He had as he was worked for a helicopter logging operation.

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Speaker 1: Oh I can't possibly imagine was present for the rotors

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Speaker 1: coming off of the helicopter above him, present but not

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Speaker 1: responsible for saying he felt a bunch of lug nuts

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Speaker 1: in his pocket and he's like, don't laugh matter, Wait

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Speaker 1: these thing is the lug nuts thing? We don't have

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Speaker 1: lug nuts, isn't Christy? No? Do we have a guest

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Speaker 1: on who was saying like, no one ever, no one

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Speaker 1: knows what lug nuts are, And like if you know,

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Speaker 1: if you know what lug nuts are, you're like a

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Speaker 1: real You're like an independent, self sufficient human, and if

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Speaker 1: you don't, you're like a millennial. I've had a close

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Speaker 1: call with some lug nuts when I was a fishing guide.

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Speaker 1: People who didn't like fishing guides loosen the lug nuts

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Speaker 1: on the boat boat trailer's way. That's like, that's like

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Speaker 1: really happened to me twice. Yeah, I've seen that one

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Speaker 1: where they pull the pin on the book and leave

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Speaker 1: the hitch in the pickup and then when you go

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Speaker 1: pull away, punch inside to this exact point over trout Man,

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Speaker 1: you're on a gangster. Yeah, a buddy of mine who's

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Speaker 1: the He loves to spearfish striper down in California and

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Speaker 1: the rivers, and people who love to you know, target

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Speaker 1: those things with the giant, super expensive swim baits don't

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Speaker 1: like that. And he's had people pull the pin on

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Speaker 1: on his boat trailer. So when he goes back and

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Speaker 1: in there, and as you like to point out, kids

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Speaker 1: love playing on boat ramps and stuff, so it's like

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Speaker 1: super dangerous and this guy's a big family guy. But uh,

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Speaker 1: last week he was diving and found fully set up

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Speaker 1: boat on the trailer totally submerged in the river. Really yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: she said. He said he swam down there and got

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Speaker 1: a picture of the VIN number and started posting. The

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Speaker 1: person not know that it's down there. Maybe they just

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Speaker 1: couldn't get yeah yeah. Uh. In our hunt for stories,

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Speaker 1: we got a guy submitted one that Karan and I

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Speaker 1: decided um is best just read. Here goes fast Bear.

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Speaker 1: What Bear was just heard about the close calls campfire

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Speaker 1: stories audiobooks. He goes on, I'm reading, I'm reading them.

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Speaker 1: I want to share a close call that happened in

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Speaker 1: our deer hunting party that I often share as it

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Speaker 1: is important for others to hear of the dangers involved

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Speaker 1: and shooting that running game, not knowing your background, shooting

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Speaker 1: above your abilities, target fixation, and sometimes a total disregard

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Speaker 1: for safety. Once the buck shows up, blow is the

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Speaker 1: brief version. That's the best intro ever right there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good one. Maybe See's maybe sixty or seventeen

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Speaker 1: years old, says he can give us more details if

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Speaker 1: we need them. Our hunting party had come to the

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Speaker 1: end of a deer drive, and as you're just stepping

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Speaker 1: out of the woods, a buck that had held tight

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Speaker 1: to the last few feet of the drive decided it

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Speaker 1: was time to vacate the woods at a dead run.

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Speaker 1: He did this in full view of the entire party,

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Speaker 1: which consisted of two posters in a box and approximately

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Speaker 1: six drivers, so aid Ish shooters. We'd called those pushers

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Speaker 1: and sitters. What does Seth call him watchers and staying?

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Speaker 1: We called him drivers and posters. Ours would be drivers

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Speaker 1: and blockers in South Dakota. You know what, pushers and blockers.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what we call them pushers. Rand us

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Speaker 1: some pushers out in the wooden So eight shooters back

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Speaker 1: to quoting. Everyone fired, myself included, until we were empty.

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Speaker 1: The deer was untouched. However, three quarters a mile down

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Speaker 1: range was a farm. As we left the hunting area,

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Speaker 1: we passed the farm and there was a man in

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Speaker 1: his bathrobe standing outside with a pistol. Two of our

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Speaker 1: party stopped and asked if he was okay. He said

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Speaker 1: someone shot him and revealed a bruise on his arm.

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Speaker 1: Upon investigation, it was determined that a bullet from the

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Speaker 1: hunting party had passed through a thicket of trees, reached

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Speaker 1: his house, passed through two walls of the house, and

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Speaker 1: struck him in the arm while he was in bed sleeping.

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Speaker 1: He worked nights because because right away I wanted to

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Speaker 1: I wanted uh. I looked down on him because he

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Speaker 1: was sleeping in the the middle of the day. He worked nights. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: totally excusable. Upon searching the man's bed, the bullet was

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Speaker 1: discovered where it had torn the blankets when it struck him.

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Speaker 1: The man calmed down and later said he thought his

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Speaker 1: ex wife was trying to kill him. We all knew

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Speaker 1: the man and his family and they have never spoken

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Speaker 1: a bad word or exhibited any bad blood towards our

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Speaker 1: hunting party. Why I don't know. Why didn't we pick

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Speaker 1: that one for the next books? To you, that's an

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Speaker 1: exercise of paint that. There's a lot of morals in

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Speaker 1: that story. One take it easy. That comes to shooting

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Speaker 1: your guns and to wow the forgiveness. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: how we have the blood. It's all, it's all good.

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Speaker 1: Shot me in my bed. You know. We have the

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Speaker 1: longest one setting story ever on a T shirt. Lemight

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Speaker 1: be a good T shirt thank me in a series

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Speaker 1: of T shirts that are various stories. I mean, did

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Speaker 1: anybody offer to patch the dry wall? Or was a

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Speaker 1: guy like well? One more details you gotta call them.

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Speaker 1: So there you have it. Yeah, that might be our

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Speaker 1: next our next story. It would be a whole line

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Speaker 1: of T shirts called story t shirts. Because we have

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Speaker 1: one about the sexual depravity of turkeys. I had to

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Speaker 1: check in and see how well that's selling. Uh. Speaking

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Speaker 1: of which, go to the Mediator store and check out that.

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Speaker 1: You don't you don't know. You don't have any updates

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Speaker 1: on whether people wanted the turkey story short. I gotta

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Speaker 1: get those updates, we can instart. I'm gonna put that.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna put a picture it on Instagram. Um. We

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Speaker 1: covered Alaska's fire season and we're pointing out like how

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Speaker 1: it will only get worse right as fire season kicks up,

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Speaker 1: and a firefighter who's been working up there, UM pointed

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Speaker 1: out that it's a different fuel model up there, and

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Speaker 1: the time frames are different, so their fire season starts

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Speaker 1: early and ends early, so their fire season is made

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Speaker 1: to August Um and he says partly due to the

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Speaker 1: sun being out twenty seven although the length of the

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Speaker 1: season is lengthening and record acreage is burning more and more.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for the outdoor advocacy, uh Man, so much feedback,

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Speaker 1: I can't even get into it. All on whether you

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Speaker 1: say this is a good question for Drew. If I

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Speaker 1: said to you, I saw two deer's or two bucks

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Speaker 1: where I saw a two buck or I saw two

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Speaker 1: dough tonight, what do you think about? All? That depends

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Speaker 1: on where you're from. You know, let's say where you're from.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say two deer, and then you see two bucks.

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Speaker 1: See two bucks? Bucks not too? Buck does too. If

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Speaker 1: I'm saying two buck, that's like you know, too buck,

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Speaker 1: that's like some sort of dance or something. To buck.

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Speaker 1: Two bucks is two male deer. They I'll say, like

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Speaker 1: like they do in Pennsylvania. Two buck, No, no, no, nope,

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Speaker 1: and uh one dough two does got it? One of

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Speaker 1: the guys that wrote in and thought that it sounded

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Speaker 1: like a doctor's seuss book. He thinks we should clear

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Speaker 1: it up in order to make a doctor's seusee book

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Speaker 1: called uh one. It's all set to one fish to

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Speaker 1: one dear too, dear, dear there, dear here. Steve shoots

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Speaker 1: it's a miss. Brodie's next makes a hip and he

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Speaker 1: goes on, say just spit balling. Uh a guy from

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania where we were kind of based on road in

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Speaker 1: like saying like he says someone for someone to say

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Speaker 1: seeing a few buck doesn't strike me as an odd

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Speaker 1: thing to say, and in most cases Mr Webster agrees.

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Speaker 1: So Webster Dictionary well accept deer and also DearS will

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Speaker 1: except bucks or buck. Okay, but he points out some exceptions.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the ones goes on shrimp, beaver, doc turkey.

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Speaker 1: The exceptions that Webster does not include is you cannot

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Speaker 1: apparently say mooses and you cannot say gooses where you

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Speaker 1: can you can can you can say gooses. That's multiple

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Speaker 1: species of geese. That's a thing you do to somebody else,

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Speaker 1: Like he always gooses what you say geese, you don't

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Speaker 1: say me. I mean, it's like two different It's a

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Speaker 1: weird comparison. That is, is there a term for when

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Speaker 1: a writer chooses to use a word improperly like that,

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Speaker 1: like to like in a turn of phrase or a

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Speaker 1: regional colloquialism, just be like they're a colloquial writer. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Steve just gotten an argument with Pat Dirk. Pat Dirk

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Speaker 1: and wrote in arguing about the hell's he arguing about

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Speaker 1: white tailed the versus white tail that you're supposed like

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Speaker 1: in his land, you're supposed to in his mind. And

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Speaker 1: he gets frustrated with our editors that like in the

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Speaker 1: old days it was white dash tailed deer, and he's

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Speaker 1: pained by the fact that white tails one word, is

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Speaker 1: now a thing. He prefers the old hyphen aated like

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Speaker 1: white tailed deer, which makes it seem like you're like,

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Speaker 1: you know, reading what's his name? Isaac Walton credit Heffelfinger

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Speaker 1: agreed with him. Yeah, helf Flinger has got a lot

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Speaker 1: of stupid things. I mean, but his whole thing about

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Speaker 1: not a lot. He's got a couple of stupid things.

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Speaker 1: The cows thing and the white tailed thing are stupid

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Speaker 1: things that helfl Finger believes him right, God bless him.

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Speaker 1: I love him, the smartest guy I know. But he's

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Speaker 1: wrong on cows, and he's wrong one. I would bet

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Speaker 1: they're the same way about like green winged teal blue

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Speaker 1: winged teal versus you know, green wings and blue wings.

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Speaker 1: Which is I told him, I've been fighting with editors

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Speaker 1: my entire career about this thing, and there's nothing to me.

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Speaker 1: At a glance looks goofier than white dash tailed deer.

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Speaker 1: It's like they're white tails. And I told Pat he's

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Speaker 1: probably still lamenting the loss of thee and thou in

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Speaker 1: popular in popular vernacular. And I told him this, there's

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Speaker 1: to school thoughts. There's there's two, Like dictionaries take two forms.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I've I've discussed this. You have like

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Speaker 1: a descriptive approach to language, and you have a prescriptive

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Speaker 1: approach to language. Prescriptive would be like you're saying how

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Speaker 1: it should be done, you're prescribing its use. A descriptive approaches,

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Speaker 1: you're capturing its use. M hmm. Right. There's also a

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Speaker 1: matter of efficiency, right, like white tails. But it's like

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Speaker 1: at a point, like like usage proper, you should should

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Speaker 1: serve the users. I feel hence that we've moved away

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Speaker 1: from the in doubt, it's like it should serve the user.

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Speaker 1: So I just like like stuff like that. I don't

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Speaker 1: have any I don't have any like sympathy for that.

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Speaker 1: Sure is a writer DF thoughts on. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a matter of It's kind of like accent to me.

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Speaker 1: So I always want to feel the accent. I want

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Speaker 1: to know where someone's from. So you know, to move,

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Speaker 1: for example, diction or a conversation into some unrealistic lea

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Speaker 1: stilted place takes away from the action, It takes away

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Speaker 1: from the environment. So you know, I'm all about keeping

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Speaker 1: colloquialisms and so to understand, I mean, I like old

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Speaker 1: duck names. For example, right, as an old duck name,

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Speaker 1: I mean spooney okay, right, you know, um so and

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Speaker 1: you think or summer duck for wood duck, Yes, summer duck,

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Speaker 1: I mean because in South Carolina historically, I mean that

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Speaker 1: was about the only duck we were gonna have in

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Speaker 1: the summertime. I mean, now we got you know, fulvius

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Speaker 1: tree ducks and and black bellied whistling ducks that are around,

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Speaker 1: but summer duck. So that was gonna I mean that

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Speaker 1: said enough that you knew that that's gonna be a

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Speaker 1: duck that hangs around in the summer. You're not saying

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Speaker 1: a sponsor, you know the Latin name for that bird. Um.

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Speaker 1: But so you have to keep the action real for

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Speaker 1: a nonfiction um writer, yeah, you want to you want

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Speaker 1: to keep that there and for and for a fiction writer. Really,

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Speaker 1: I stop believing. I stopped reading when someone is sort

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Speaker 1: of out of context for a place. So if if

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Speaker 1: if they haven't done their work, and you know, you've

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Speaker 1: got someone from Pennsylvania saying something that's something something that

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Speaker 1: someone from South Carolina would say, then you know I

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Speaker 1: kind of pushed that. Yeah, so that's where I come down.

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Speaker 1: I'll take this opportunity to once again plug the works

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Speaker 1: of Karmick McCarthy, who more than anyone learns like the

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Speaker 1: language he's talking about. There you go, I mean, do

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Speaker 1: your homework, like you went to the Southwest to start

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Speaker 1: writing about the Southwest, and holy sh it, or like

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Speaker 1: when Andy Prude started writing out of Wyoming, I mean

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Speaker 1: she got where she knew it better than you. Buddy

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Speaker 1: man Um tells that talking about oh yeah, the lead episode,

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Speaker 1: let me do an abbreviated version. There's a guy that

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Speaker 1: hunts muzzloader only areas and in some states that actually

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Speaker 1: spells out like you have to use a lead projectile

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Speaker 1: with a muzzleloader. And he's like, what's a fellow to do?

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Speaker 1: And you'd be like, well, like I've I've hunted with

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Speaker 1: my muzzleloader, um with Federals all copper muzzleloader animal but

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Speaker 1: it's sabboted and there's no true to bore. I believe

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Speaker 1: that's correct. So the it's wrapped, the projectile is wrapped

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Speaker 1: in a plastic sheath. So what actually, So let's say

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Speaker 1: you let's say you're shooting a fifty caliber muzzleloader. The

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Speaker 1: projectile is actually, what do you guys know, not fifty,

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Speaker 1: it's like thirty six or some ship like that, and

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Speaker 1: it's wrapped in it's wrapped in a it's basically wrapped

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Speaker 1: in a wadding. Okay, like you know in the old days,

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Speaker 1: you take like a little bit of take some bear

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Speaker 1: grease and put it on some linen and wrap your

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Speaker 1: ball in it. What that does is that bites the

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00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: that that that helps bite the lands and grooves inside

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Speaker 1: the barrel holds, helps bite the rifling and gives it

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Speaker 1: a snug fit so gases don't escape around the edge.

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Speaker 1: So if you wanted, if you were, if you were

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Speaker 1: like desirous to shoot all copper things for your muzzleoader

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Speaker 1: is going to be savoted in a plastic sheet, and

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Speaker 1: that plastic bites the lands and the grooves and throws

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Speaker 1: a spin on it, and then when it comes out

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Speaker 1: the muzzle, it sheds that plastic. And so some states

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Speaker 1: require true to bore, like when they spell it like

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Speaker 1: what exactly is a muzzleloader? It requires a true to

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Speaker 1: borer projectile. And so there's no copper true to Maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong. I don't think so there's no copper true

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Speaker 1: to bore muzzleloader projectile because it's not gonna. I think

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Speaker 1: it's like, it's not it's too hard, it doesn't bite.

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Speaker 1: My wrong, I don't think I'm wrong. I wouldn't know.

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Speaker 1: That's what he wrote in about uh speaking of healf

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Speaker 1: of finger, and that's just that's not because l hef

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Speaker 1: a sounds like helfle finger because helf of fingers is

401
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Speaker 1: uh helfle fingers always nippled deep in the whole jaguar conversation.

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Speaker 1: Tell Us, tell us the jaguar news bro. Yeah, how

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Speaker 1: does Spencer say it? Jaguar? I say jaguar. There's some jaguars.

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Speaker 1: There's a famous jaguar down in uh down southern Arizona

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Speaker 1: known as l hef a uh who was believed for

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Speaker 1: several years to be the only jaguar that was in

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Speaker 1: the United States and just a bad looking Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: the two thousand fifteen is the last time they saw him.

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Speaker 1: I think they may have believed he was dead. Um.

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Speaker 1: But in any case, like he just disappeared in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen, So that was seven years ago. Um,

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Speaker 1: L half a just popped up across the border in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Um still alive at twelve years old. Um. Pretty, it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty cool story. It's like it I'm gonna bring

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Speaker 1: up something that always gets people riled up as ship

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Speaker 1: um if when debating when debating the border wall, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I brought us up a hundred times. I'm gonna bring

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Speaker 1: it up again when debating the border wall, like a

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Speaker 1: normal I can't think of how to approach this subject.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm not I'm not scared approach. I's gonna

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Speaker 1: approach it. When debating the border wall, you would think

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Speaker 1: that people would be like, I want to hear all

423
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 1: the sides to it. Right aside to the debate around

424
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: the border wall is what it means for the freedom

425
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: of movement of large land mammals. Okay, birds, no problem, Well,

426
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of birds, no problem. Yeah,

427
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: googled turkeys. Probably not great. But it's it's a thing

428
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: to factor, right. But people get mad that you bring

429
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: it up because they're like, well, your job hasn't been

430
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: taken by it, right. It's like, well, no, no, I'm

431
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: just entering in a thing to consider, the same way

432
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: if you're sitting there with your like my wife and

433
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: I right now are kicking around what we might do

434
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: for Christmas. It just so happens that airline tickets are

435
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: very expensive right now, and we have a family of five.

436
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: So if we're saying we want to go to ax

437
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: for Christmas, and then someone says, however, let's bear in

438
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: mind plane tickets are very expensive, is it? Then do

439
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: you then say like, well, you just hate vacations or

440
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: is it No, I'm just making sure I factor everything

441
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: in and making my decision about how I feel about

442
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: us going on the vacation and the same spirit. Building

443
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: an impenetrable wall across a couple of thousand miles of

444
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: while they've have will have implications. But this is interesting

445
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: because this thing is moving back and forth. That's right, Um,

446
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: were the people to be fair, he may have I mean,

447
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: that wall hasn't been he might have found his spot

448
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: right and and people move back and forth. But it's

449
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: interesting that that he right, that he that he has

450
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: his way of doing it, and not even being captured

451
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: by in like and not even just getting picked up

452
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: by electronic intercepts. Yeah, they they ideed him, I think

453
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: with I don't know if it was trail camp pictures

454
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: or whatever, but someone got some images of him and

455
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: they ideed him by you know, they basically like fingerprint

456
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: jaguars with their markings, and that's how they idd him

457
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: and found out he's still alive out there, and so

458
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: twelve years old. Um, I'm imagining that's an ancient my understandings,

459
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: you're at the end of the round, you're at the

460
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: end of the line. Um, just from just from like

461
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: working at work in South America ten eleven twelve. Their teeth,

462
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: their teeth are cooked, and then they usually wind up

463
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: chewing on someone's dog in their backyard. They can't get

464
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: any you know, they can't get any to eat. Uh,

465
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: you know what you're talking about. The fingerprinting on jaguars

466
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: is remember a few years ago one turned up in

467
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: a on the Mexico side of the border. One pictures

468
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: turned up on Facebook. Um, the person with the jaguars

469
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: not identifiable, but it was like a jaguar, a dead

470
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: jaguar shot and the floral I think they call it

471
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: was rosettes they call him on there. Yeah, they're the

472
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: rosettes are diagnostic and they actually in that jaguar had

473
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: spent time in Arizona. So there. You know, I think

474
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: the question of whether they're moving back and forth has

475
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: clearly been settled. But you know, I wonder if l

476
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: haf A left any offspring in in the US. If

477
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: you're interested in the jaguar debate in this country, I'm

478
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: gonna try to like talk about as quickly as possibles,

479
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: like as they look at jaguar recovery and jaguar protection.

480
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: There's a spirited debate about what function historically did West Texas,

481
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: southern New Mexico, in southern Arizona, Like what function did

482
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: they actually play in the in the well being of jaguars?

483
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: And some people are like, there's enough evidence that's just

484
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: jazz that it was like there was a thinly dispersed, viable,

485
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: reproducing population of jaguars in those states, and recovery would

486
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: mean that you had a thinly dispersed, reproducing, viable population

487
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: of jaguars, or it would be that now and then

488
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: one showed up. Yeah, and it was never core habit.

489
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: But either way, it was like the northern edge of

490
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: their territory right like they weren't there wasn't ever a

491
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: lot of them. That was as far as they went.

492
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: You know, sure, I think to brodyes earlier comment, it

493
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: would provide some context people too, to um think about

494
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: the dynamics of these cat populations, because like, did l

495
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: f A leave any kids behind? I would have Heffelfinger's

496
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: book read l haf A how many kids he left behind?

497
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: And how many eight along the way? That's right? Uh,

498
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: Sean hit us with um you had an assignment. Yep.

499
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: We listed out a ton of Duck reports to do,

500
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: like eight eight different subject matters to cover. Well. Quackitty quick,

501
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: don't talk back, that's funny, go out, sorry, go on. Um.

502
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: One of one of those subjects being what led to

503
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: the explosion of snow goose populations. And we've kind of

504
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: discussed in the Duck Report before. Tell people what we mean. Yeah,

505
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: like if your dad was a goose hunter, right, there

506
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 1: was no like you know, insane like no plugs needed,

507
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: electric electronic callers allowed bag limits of fifty snow geese

508
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: a day hunting them during turkey season. Yeah, none of

509
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: that was happening. And all a lot of it comes

510
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: back to human influence and human impact on the environment

511
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: and agriculture. Right. Uh, when you came and hunted with

512
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: me in South Dakota the first time we did podcast

513
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: that was Hunting the Anthroposyne and titles. Man, he's a

514
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: good title. That was a good one. The next the

515
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: next title it'll already be out, I think, but it's

516
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: um throw had little use for you. Mm hmm. That's

517
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: a title later so so we but we're hunting flooded

518
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: beans right and flooded corn and like how that benefits

519
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: ducks and how ducks thrive in that environment. Snow Geese

520
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: are another example of winners in the spread of agriculture

521
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: and the explosion of grain agriculture across the Midwest and

522
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: the West. Um. You know, you go back to like

523
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds and snow geese were this and there's

524
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you know, old historical records that

525
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: the Fish and Wildlife Service collected and compiled in their

526
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: argument for what we now call the Light Goose Spring

527
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: Conservation Order. But a hundred years ago, snow geese were

528
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: this small population of birds that nested on the tundra

529
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: and then end up winnering in a sliver of habitat

530
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: in coastal Texas and Louisiana. Fast forward to the nineties,

531
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: thirties and forties, as we see small grain kind of

532
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: explode across the plains and places like Kansas and Iowa,

533
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: draining wetlands and creating you know, pretty much a food

534
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: source for those snow geese define small grain wheat, barley,

535
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: and then now of course corn. But in the you know,

536
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: in that twenties to forties, and in addition to that,

537
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: in Texas and Louisiana. You see a lot of those

538
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: coastal brackish marshes get drained and turned into rice fields.

539
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: And what happens is snow geese respond positively to that. Uh,

540
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: their population starts exploding because now as they make this

541
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: crazy trek, right, which we discussed in the A Dometer

542
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: Duck Report where we talked about how much, you know,

543
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: the average snow goose flies twenty and a half miles

544
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: per day its whole life, which is just wild to me.

545
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 1: That's incredible, man, that's so much so so now that

546
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 1: they fly all this time and spend so much time traveling,

547
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: now they actually have a food source that helps them

548
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: be healthy along the whole way. And um, you know,

549
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: in in the sixties and seventies, guy named Dr Rockwell

550
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: who helped me with this and helped me with an

551
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: article I wrote. He started researching snow geese on La

552
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: Pruce Bay in in on the edge of the Hudson

553
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: Bay in Canada, and he pretty much what what he

554
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: found and what he argued for starting actually all the

555
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: way back in seventies was these snow geese every year

556
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: are more and more healthy as they come back north

557
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: on their spring migration, and it coincides beautifully with more

558
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: and more food across the Midwest as they as they

559
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: come back north. So you get these new spots that

560
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: they kind of stop and hit along the way uh

561
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: Squaw Creek which is now called Los Bluffs uh in Missouri,

562
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: Sand Lake National Wildlife Refuge in South Dakota, etcetera. Where

563
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: you have this perfect collision of habitat where you have

564
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: a good water source, you know, a consistent water source

565
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: every year that they can stop at, surrounded by food

566
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: and freeze out lake here in Montana, Yep, exactly. And

567
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: you know, I remember you could call when we used

568
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: to go up there and hunt that you could call

569
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: a hotline and the hot line would tell you that

570
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: there's twenty thousand snow geese an estimated twenty you're here.

571
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: Then you call a few days later to be like

572
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: an estimated twenty six thousand or here, and just like

573
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: decide if you're gonna go based off the number. Yeah,

574
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: they used to have that on sand Lake National Wildlife

575
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: Refuge in South Dakota too. I remember one time that

576
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: they estimated there was two point two million snow gees

577
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: sitting on that You're kidding which just so many in

578
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: one place, so so long story short. Um. You know,

579
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: for example, with Dr Rockwell's research, he watched during his

580
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: time living up there on the tundra researching snows, he

581
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: watched that Hudson Bay population go from fifteen hundred nesting

582
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: pairs two over five hundred thousand nesting pairs during his

583
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: time of research there. And that's just not in his life,

584
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: that's during his career, right and now, So so what

585
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: we had then in the nineties is guys like him

586
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: making an argument for these snow gees are extremely productive,

587
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: egg culture is benefiting them. We got to do something.

588
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: And when they took the gloves off and said, all right, hunters,

589
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: um have at it. Shoot as many snow geese as

590
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: you can. Adding you know, no plugs, use electronic calls,

591
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: all things that are like unheard of in waterfall management,

592
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: and you know, give credit where credit to do on that,

593
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: like Duck's Unlimited was huge in hunters getting that opportunity

594
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: because frankly, there was a lot of discussion around poisoning

595
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: them and which is hard to think about as we

596
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, we look back on like poisoning of bears

597
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: and wolves across their whole native range and decimation of that.

598
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: We see it as like, oh, we would never do

599
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: that again. But only thirty years ago it was like

600
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: on the table two poison snow geese. Did I say

601
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: that I ever bragged? You belt the vial which is

602
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: probably still let my mom's house that we had a

603
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: glass vial of what my dad swore up and down

604
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: was it was like a white powder and he said,

605
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: if you put that and mix it with corn and

606
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: put it out, it'll kill the geese right off. No,

607
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: I haven't heard that, But what is it? Do you

608
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: know what the chemicals? Just said? I sat on the

609
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: window sill in the garage and no, like, we never

610
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: touched it, but my dad's like, that's what it is,

611
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: and he'd got that, yeah, and he was gonna someday

612
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: mix up with some bread and put it on the

613
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: beach just to see what happened. But like, like I said,

614
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 1: I guarantee that thing is still sitting there. I need

615
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: to go grab. So anyway, what has it been effective? No, No,

616
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: it hasn't. Many they're just too productive and they fly

617
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: around in such large flocks. You know. The hunter impact

618
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: on snow geese has been single jet percentile. And you

619
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: know the thing is, I mean, we've got an episode

620
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 1: of duck Lore that's out snow goose hunting with Kevin Gillespie,

621
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: and you know you'll have snows fly over you that

622
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: and you kill two, you kill four. Like there's so

623
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: many eyes. They live to be so old. They see

624
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: so many decoy spreads. You know, we're putting out a

625
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: thousand decoys with dozens of speakers mimicking snow goose sounds

626
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: a great hide and like they just they just know

627
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: they are the hardest bird to hunt, and um, you know,

628
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to see that they nature does a

629
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 1: lot better job of canning snow goose populations with spring

630
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: storms on the tundra than hunters could ever, you know,

631
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: dream of doing. Is there any speculation that their population

632
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: could like crash because there's like they there is no

633
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: usable nesting you know that that was originally the speculation.

634
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: It was degrading Arctic habitat, right, That was the argument

635
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: behind the spring like goose conservation order. Was there so

636
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: negatively impacting their tundra habitat that we got to preserve

637
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 1: the tundra. What we've seen instead is that as they

638
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 1: degrade certain areas. They tend to just disperse and find

639
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: new areas right that they they hop around to premium habitat,

640
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: and they've actually moved away from a lot of the

641
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: coastal habitat and they've moved to more interior nesting in

642
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: some places. Another wrinkle I've heard of in this which

643
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: could change the dialogue a little bit is as there

644
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: is a reduction in sea ice in an escalation in

645
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: snow geese populations, that polar bears are becoming increasingly reliant

646
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: on snow geese nesting colonies. Yeah, there's well, there's and

647
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: there's so many to buy it. Do you know about that?

648
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: I do, doctor, I do. Dr Rockwell was actually talking

649
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: to me about how they're having a hard time knowing

650
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: exactly what's going on on the tundra with snow goose

651
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: populations because there is so many bears moving with these

652
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: snow goose colonies, and that it's like dangerous to have

653
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: researchers on the ground because there's now spots where there

654
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: is a there are spots where there is all three

655
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: bears colliding around snow goose habitat. Yes, that'd be cool

656
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: to see. You have one stop shopping right there? No

657
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: ship with a wild to see a black bear, but

658
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: grizzly and a polar bear like wandering around a snow

659
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: goose colony. Grizzly bear and a polar bear walk into

660
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: a bar. Well they man, yeah, that's a fun one.

661
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: Uh oh. If you want to learn more about duck Lawer,

662
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: go back and check out our episode called Test My Meat.

663
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: They tell a little backstory on that, and also we're

664
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: speaking to Test my Meat. We solicited it where people

665
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: were sold to send us the toughest meat they've ever encountered.

666
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: We got in our freezer and we're not well, need

667
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 1: to follow my instruction. Karin's very disappointed people's listening abilities.

668
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: She's like become like a critic of the American education system. However,

669
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 1: very explicit details that were not followed in many cases.

670
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: But we have a lot of samples in the freezer

671
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: and we're gonna get Instead of doing it on the podcast,

672
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna fire up our tender our meat

673
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: testing tenderness testing machine to do a video about everybody

674
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: can see how one guys need to do that. Geriatric

675
00:43:44,800 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: cow I shot last year's rules Brodie are you ready,

676
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: Drew Ready while we do this, Callahan is gonna bartend

677
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: for us. We covered on the show that they're making

678
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: a yeah, green crab whiskey. They're they're taking green crabs

679
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: and making whiskey out of them, sort of. Who's the

680
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: outfit Tamworth Distilling in New Hampshire and they make a

681
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: beaver caster product. We're gonna have to ask them about that,

682
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: but yeahs not true. Maybe they do, I don't know,

683
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: but damn it's like it's beaver It's a whiskey with

684
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: infused with beaver cast? Is that? Is that what we're

685
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,760
Speaker 1: trying right now? That's what we're trying. That's what we're drinking.

686
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: The green crab was cast story um flavored whiskey. I

687
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: didn't think we'd be on a meat eater podcast and

688
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 1: not get around to the beaver cast. So we're doing

689
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: the beaver caster first and then we're gonna have But

690
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: thank you to the listeners who wrote in because I

691
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: said that we probably couldn't get this. You know how

692
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: early we're talking about euphemisms. I'll tell you when I

693
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: stole from Charles Portis who uh Charles Porters who wrote

694
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: True Grit and someone says of Rooster Cogburn that he

695
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: likes to pull a cork. I I and I stole

696
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: that from that book, and that's what I used when

697
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: I'm talking about someone who drinks a tad too much,

698
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 1: like this Friday. Here's a sound here's a sound effect

699
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: that I might sell that sound effect. Someone, you want

700
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: to put a drop of that on your tongue and

701
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: see if you can detect any if you come to

702
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: the right place. Because I got a nose for being

703
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: so yeah that I smell that. I mean, you know,

704
00:45:54,320 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: M zero zero. It smells like whiskey, to taste like whiskey.

705
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: Taste like whiskey. I could be hundreds of yards away

706
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: from a beaver lodge and I'll smell the cab beaver

707
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: castor is a powerful smell. Man. Don't you have a

708
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: whiff of that in your little shot? I just got it. Yeah,

709
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: you know how I got it. Drink your drink, suck

710
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: it dry, and then and then get your nose about

711
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: two three inches away from the mouth and take a whiff.

712
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: And I just hit the caster. It's very subtlest story,

713
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: whiskey man, that's pretty tasty. It's not bad. Steve is

714
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: doing some motion where he puts his nose up in

715
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: the area. Really really bougie. What's the other one? The

716
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: crab flavor? Okay, so crab Trapper, right, this is the one.

717
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: I was kind of giving a hard time having never

718
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: tasted it based off the fact that it's a They're

719
00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: They're descriptor was a better tasting fireball boy? What the

720
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: world needs? And it comes packed and what I thought

721
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: was a suet cage, but then realized, I think it

722
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 1: might be it comes in a little crab trap. Yeah,

723
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: but I think it's a suet cage. Do they got

724
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: an origin story? I'm trying my my trick. Yeah, I'll

725
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: take a little bit. It was the last time anyone

726
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: was drinking on here hot buttered drum. It was a

727
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: really good plan for this upcoming Christmas. This is the

728
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: what's this? This is crab Trapper right here? Trapper? That

729
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: one's different. That's different. I just never hear all the

730
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: slow beers were all made in the same factory. Brody

731
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: just made a face like he busted into his dad's

732
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,919
Speaker 1: liquor cab, not when he was supposed to be sick

733
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: at school. From school. I give him credit for going

734
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 1: after those. Actually that's some Yeah, that's some marine going

735
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: on in there. Yeah, yeah, it's there. Yeah, it's there. Yeah,

736
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: it's it's it's Briannie. It's sort of like crabbing left

737
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: out in the sun. Brianie isn't quite what Brianie's giving

738
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: it some credit. Yes, passed, Brianie. It smells good. Shot

739
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: it on the caster for sure. Now I thought that

740
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 1: you don't want many Let's try something that. Boy, are

741
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: we going to try the Tara was wonder if they

742
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: made one Tara gland off box. This that is the

743
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: Tarsa gandingas with Old Bay or something right right right, Yeah, yes,

744
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: that's what it is. Yes, there's Old Bay seasonings in there.

745
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: See I'm like part Chinese. Something about this is dipping

746
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 1: into that fermented funky like we have a thing called,

747
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: you know, stinky tofu. It doesn't sound appetizing, but it is. Anybody,

748
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: what's your face telling us right now? And I'm not

749
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 1: gonna catch a buzz from this, That's what he's telling you.

750
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: You're not gonna you're not gonna drink enough, right, Yeah,

751
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: this is a deterrent from pulling a court so that

752
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: sound effect reverse it? What does it sound like when

753
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: you reverse it, we'll find out. Wait, now he's that's good.

754
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: Here's whoa Is that the tar one or they crab one? Okay?

755
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: And that neither? Is that back? What you think about that?

756
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,919
Speaker 1: I'm ready to start the interview now. If anybody would

757
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 1: like to try the dear one, just pass your glass.

758
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: I need to end with that. I'm more of a beat.

759
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: What's it called beaver trapper? The beaver that was good?

760
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: That's really good. So that's something I've been americanizing for

761
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: far too lo, probably out of old cartoons. It was

762
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: always old day. But here it is spelled out in

763
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 1: front of me, and it's e au space d E space.

764
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: So they went with crab trapper for green crab flavored whiskey,

765
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: and they didn't go with beaver trapper. We have a

766
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: seasoning called beaver trapper though, but they did over to

767
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:27,919
Speaker 1: musque adproof castoreum flavored whiskey, which I thought was quite nice.

768
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: Crab on have to go with a boil or something.

769
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: What's there was from being a burder in the ornithologist,

770
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: and like, how do you define a burder? And in

771
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: that answer me this, how do you become a burder?

772
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: Of mammals. Why is there no equivalent? Well, you know,

773
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 1: it's a matter of dedication. It's a matter of obsession

774
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: between the ornithologist is the professional right that can Maybe

775
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 1: you're studying taxonomy, maybe you're thinking about behavior, Maybe you

776
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 1: think about conservation and culture like I do so ornithologists.

777
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: Typically you're pushing towards that realm of scientific study of

778
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: the of the creature. The birder is the you know,

779
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: the hobbyist, the officionado, somebody's out there following and and

780
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: birder bird watcher, you know, sort of interchangeable, even though

781
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: I'd like to think about them kind of in different ways.

782
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: You know, the bird watcher maybe as someone who um

783
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: is a little less um avid in terms of following

784
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: birds and going after the rarity and traveling all over

785
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: the world for it may be satisfied to be like

786
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 1: a lot of us had to be during the pandemic,

787
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 1: to sit in the backyard and let the world come

788
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: to you on wings. So lots of ornithologists are birders,

789
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: but some of them aren't, right um. But it's just

790
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: a matter if it's sort of uh, you know, degrees

791
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: of separation in terms of those people who are thinking

792
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 1: about birds from a hobby perspective. They want to see

793
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: those birds as many of them as they can, uh,

794
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: as many different species. So lots of birders have life lists.

795
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 1: Do you keep a lifeless not anymore? You know you've

796
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: walked away from it. Yeah, I mean I know every

797
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: bird that I've seen, but um to me. For me, now,

798
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: it's really about sort of the connection with the place

799
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: as well as the bird, right. So you know, I

800
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: was just up in Denali National Park up at Camptonally

801
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 1: and you know, lots of the birds that I see

802
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: in the wintertime, for example, a white crowned sparrow. It's

803
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: a it's a bird in South Carolina that is relatively local,

804
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: and you hear them sing sort of one plaintive mournful song,

805
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: and you sort of see them in this way in

806
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: this landscape in the southern landscape. Well, you go up

807
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: there and those birds are singing you know, seven or

808
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: eight different variations of songs, right and um and and

809
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: so you get to see the bird at the other

810
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: half of its life. So that's that's that's watching to me.

811
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: It I wasn't so interested, Yeah, I wanted to see

812
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: lots of different birds up there there are things that

813
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen that I wanted to see, or that

814
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,919
Speaker 1: I wanted to see in the context of not being

815
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: outside of the range as a rarity, but being in

816
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: their place and seeing them comfortable in their place. So

817
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: that was watching to me. That was absorbing the birds

818
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: in a way. What's what is the what is the number?

819
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: I mean if if you can make a list, I

820
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to tell you. I wouldn't. This would

821
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: be a great trivia question for Spencer. How high does

822
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: the list go? They are roughly ten thousand birds species

823
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: in the world roughly, Yeah, roughly ten thousands. Why is

824
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: it not? Why is it not specific? Because of like

825
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: taxonomic lumping and splitting I mean ornithology and and the

826
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: ability to to to split hairs with feathers in this

827
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: case um birds that every year. You know, there are

828
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: species that sort of morph in and out of one another.

829
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: So the splitting, you know, sometimes gives birders a larger

830
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: lifeless Yeah, I've got a question for you there. So

831
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 1: you said ten thousand, So in that ten thousand, are

832
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: there like from your perspective, are there five different wild

833
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: turkeys there as there one? Well, you know, if I'm

834
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: going by the biological species concept, and those birds can

835
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: interbreed and produce viable young. That's one species. But as

836
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: a birder, as a as a well now as a birder. Yeah,

837
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: you know you're gonna list. I mean, and those birds

838
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: have different behaviors, right, So understanding that behavior and you

839
00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: think about how the different habitats have created or attributed

840
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: some different character to those birds. So you know you

841
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: can't argue that in Eastern is like a ghoul's right, Yeah,

842
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: I mean, and you're gonna if you're a hunter, you're

843
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: gonna hunt those birds differently. I was. I was impressed

844
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,879
Speaker 1: the first, you know, in my first sort of observations

845
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: of of of Miriam's in in Nebraska. I mean, they

846
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: were everywhere right, they just didn't seem wary like Eastern's.

847
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: And and people would tell me, they'd say, they'd say, well,

848
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: because I was interested in hunting Miriams, they said, well,

849
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: that's easy. You know, they're sort of like they treated

850
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: him like you were gonna go out and hunt pigeons. There.

851
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: There wasn't a whole lot of to me, seemingly value

852
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: placed upon what that bird was from um hunting standpoint. Now,

853
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: as a birder, you know, to see those birds and

854
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: to see those white tipped fittail feathers and all of

855
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: that stuff in the way the bird was behaving in

856
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: that habitat and those sandhills, you know, that made a

857
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: difference to me. But from a conservation and and and

858
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: you have to think from really an organizational standpoint, and

859
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: those people concerned with the conservation of wild turkeys, then

860
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, if you split, then there's the opportunity to

861
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: think about turkeys in a different way. You know. It's

862
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: sort of like the you know, any species that we

863
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: go after as birders, and we think about you're thinking

864
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: about diversity. You're thinking about seeing all of these birds

865
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: and all their permutations. And well sometimes you know, as

866
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: the AOS gets together and their taxonomic committee is thinking

867
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: about these birds that the the bird gods. The American

868
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: Ornithological Society, and you're a member board member, you have

869
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: some role there. Not Now you don't know, no, I've

870
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: I've I've deboarded myself for the most part. But you know,

871
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 1: it's it's their arguments every year about um discussions. I

872
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 1: guess I should say about who these birds are, what

873
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: they are and see you keep hearing me say who

874
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: birds are, because I'm thinking about them maybe in a

875
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: different way than a lot of folks think about them.

876
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: So when it comes down to a species that someone

877
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: has noticed some differences or um in behavior perhaps or

878
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: in occurrence of that bird in a given place or

879
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: a given range, then they begin to think about splitting them.

880
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: So I think about birds a bird that you know,

881
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: winter wrens that are now Pacific rins, and then in

882
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: Europe they wren so um and a Lucian wren, So

883
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: that bird was once one species. But then it's sort

884
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: of like the roll of the taxonomic dice, you know,

885
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: and you come up and you got you know, and

886
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: you roll double sixes. There you go, you got more

887
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: birds on your list. You know. One that one of

888
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: the an occurrence I'm sure you're familiar with it that

889
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: I've followed because it kind of happened with a bird

890
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: I was in rested in and in my lifetime was

891
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: when the blue grouse, right, Yeah, when the blue grouse

892
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: ceased to exist and was broken into the dusky and sody, right,

893
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: and it was like there was like genuine things. I mean,

894
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: one of them likes to have a different pattern of

895
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: how it does its call in the spring, one generally

896
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: wants to do it on the ground, One generally wants

897
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: to do it in a tree. Differences in uh, what

898
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: do you call that? On a bird? When you got

899
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: that eyebrow? All right, bro, that puffs up and ship

900
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about? Like differences there and

901
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 1: all these behavioral differences. And then you see it and

902
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: now you you see it like reflected in the hunting regulations,

903
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:44,439
Speaker 1: and it was it was the outfit you're talking about.

904
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: The American Ornithological Society said, hey, we got it wrong.

905
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: There's one that lives in the coastal ranges, there's one

906
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: of the interior ranges, and ain't the same thing, you know,

907
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: And and those opportunities to split out and to to

908
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: recognize those birds for who they are are, and in

909
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: some ways, you know, the science allows you to kind

910
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: of de objectify the birds. So it's a you know,

911
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 1: it's an exercise that frustrates some people, especially when they

912
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: lose species. If you are interested in maximizing the number

913
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: of things on your list, and all of a sudden

914
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 1: they get lumped down into one or two, then you're like, oh,

915
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 1: you know, um, some people don't like that. It's a thing.

916
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: Sure is there a number against all birders are measured? Right?

917
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: So are there benchmark type of numbers out there that

918
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: it's like you're not gonna be taken seriously until you

919
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: hit just here's here's the thing. I you know, and

920
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: people bird watchers, birders keep lists down to I mean

921
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: to the patch. You know when I say the patch,

922
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: that place maybe that they go constantly. I've got a

923
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: place in uh in South Carolina, Townville, for example. It's

924
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: mostly itszagg fields ponds, farm ponds, a budding forests, and

925
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: so a lot of diversity out there, and we see

926
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: quite a few species that you would expect to only

927
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 1: see in the West or the Midwest. So you can

928
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: go out there and you can, um, certain times you

929
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: have a fair chance and in a big flock of

930
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: winning Eastern metal larks if the birds are singing or

931
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: if you've got a spoting so if you can figure

932
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: them out, you might pick out a couple of Western

933
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: metal arks, you know. Um, And so you know the

934
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: list out there and that expense, you know, if you

935
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 1: can get two hundred, two hundred and fifty birds out

936
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: in that patch, in that localized area that might be

937
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: sort of a benchmark. But birding has become extraordinarily competitive.

938
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: I mean, so you have these big years, these big days.

939
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's yeah, like they there's like a very

940
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: popular book about and then they did a movie right year.

941
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: So if I'm understanding this correctly, it's not necessarily just

942
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: one long list, it's a here's the list that I

943
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 1: acquired during one day in this region. He's being invasive

944
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: because he doesn't want to tell you you can do that.

945
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: He doesn't want you know you can do that. Might

946
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 1: know what is my number? My number, like I said,

947
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: I don't have it. You know, I don't have I

948
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: don't have a number. As much as some days, I'll

949
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 1: go out right now say this is gonna be a

950
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: sparrow day, and I want to see as many of

951
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: the sparrows that one might expect to see in this

952
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 1: place in that day, and so it might just be

953
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: a sparrow day for me. Let me, let me put

954
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: it to you this way. I'm not gonna ask you anymore. Yeah, okay,

955
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: it's one last final question. There's nothing to do with you.

956
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: Let's say you met a competitive, like the worst type

957
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 1: of competitive burder okay, and they're just gonna they gotta

958
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: tell you, and they hit you with a number like

959
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 1: my lifeless number one that the top end is around

960
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: ten thousand. They heat with the number like I have

961
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: in my life. With all the money I've spent, I've

962
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: seen x birds. What would the number need to be

963
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: for you to say, holy ship? Three four thousand birds?

964
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: I mean in North America, So think about round up

965
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: you say North America thousand or a thousand birds and

966
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: our birds species. But but really, you know, you've got

967
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 1: these kids, You've got really young people who have seen

968
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: two or three thousand birds. You know, they're out there

969
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 1: that aggressively searching for the species. So they're chasing um.

970
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: They are are really thinking about the ways to maximize

971
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: the number of birds they see. They're traveling to foreign countries.

972
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 1: Here's the one. Maybe you'll answer this one. How many

973
01:02:55,520 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 1: countries have you been to? Uh? Roughly? I mean yeah,

974
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: about ten, you know, and mostly though taking students to

975
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: those to to to those places. So you know, I

976
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: have a I have a bucket list of places I

977
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: want to go. But you've been have you been to

978
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: like all kind of eco regions in the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um.

979
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: I haven't been to ant Antarctica. I haven't been there yet.

980
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 1: I would not have thought that. I don't know why

981
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: that it would be young people getting overly ambitious about it.

982
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's picture. It's well, you know, you go,

983
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: for example, if you go to a bird festival, like

984
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 1: the biggest week in American birding up in northwest Ohio

985
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 1: and the Black Swamp up there in Toledo near Toledo.

986
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: You go there in the springtime and you've got birds,

987
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: migratory birds, warblers, thrushes, tanagers that are piling up on

988
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: the edge of erie. And those birds are just piling

989
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: up in There are boardwalks through that and so um

990
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,919
Speaker 1: kim cough in the in the black Swamp bird of observatory.

991
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: They are doing science there to sort of keep track

992
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 1: of some of those birds. But you have hundreds of

993
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: thousands of people coming into you ever been in Oregon, Ohio? Well,

994
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: now it's you know, the interesting thing you drive into

995
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: You drive out of Toledo, I don't know, maybe uh

996
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: forty minutes something like that, and all of a sudden

997
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 1: you're in all this sagg land in northwest Ohio. You've

998
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: got the lake right there, You've got the forest, and

999
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,919
Speaker 1: those birds pile up and people, all of those people

1000
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 1: come up there, and a lot of those people, you've

1001
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 1: got kids who are carrying around camera lenses that are

1002
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: almost as long as they are tall. Kids. Kids, I'm

1003
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 1: talking about twelve year olds mhm. Right and there, and

1004
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: they're they're identifying birds in ways I mean, their their

1005
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 1: sense of hearing and seeing and the way they notice.

1006
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I can remember being down at Laguna Um

1007
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: actually not Laguna Atascosa, but it was a park in

1008
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 1: South Texas, and um, this bird called uh paraki. You know,

1009
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: it's like a night jar um, like a whipper will.

1010
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: There's this one spot where you go to see them.

1011
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: But you know, if you've ever seen like out here'd

1012
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 1: be a poor will. You know you almost step on

1013
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: those birds. You can't see them. They're that well camouflaged.

1014
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 1: So here these parakeys are in the daytime, they're in

1015
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: a thicket. They're really super hard to see. And you're lucky,

1016
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, you look long enough, long enough. It's like

1017
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: looking for a rattlesnake in a in a brush pile

1018
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: and suddenly you see this bird and you see this

1019
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: one bird, and I'm standing there and I see the one,

1020
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: then I see two. Then eventually I see maybe three

1021
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 1: or four of these birds. And I'm really thinking, yeah, yeah,

1022
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: I got this, I got the I got the visual

1023
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 1: down this. This kid steps up next to me, maybe

1024
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 1: nine or ten years old, see's twelve, seriously, and so

1025
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 1: this is this is like this is like a roost,

1026
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: and so you know, they're seeing things and and and

1027
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 1: and birding is such a great opportunity to give people

1028
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: at cess, you know, to nature in that way. I mean,

1029
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 1: part of the reason that I don't kill more deer

1030
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: is because I'm out there bird watching. I mean, it's

1031
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 1: it's you know, and and so I'm looking to see

1032
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 1: I'm at this different level with these birds and able

1033
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: to to see them. So, you know, I have a

1034
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: deer stand. I try to keep a list on the

1035
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 1: deer stand. I'm not a great turkey hunter. Why because

1036
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: warblers are coming back through the woods during the spring season.

1037
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 1: So I'm being anything but still watching these other birds

1038
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: instead of watching for the bird. So um that opportunity

1039
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: in all sorts of places to see them. And I

1040
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 1: think the numbers bear out that during the pandemic even

1041
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: more of them got into into birding. It's almost you know,

1042
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 1: if you think about that old our son used to

1043
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: have a you know, he had a Pokadex, right, and yeah, yeah,

1044
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,439
Speaker 1: Pokadex is so pokemon. You know that, you know, people

1045
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 1: going out looking for these these fictional creatures in these habitats,

1046
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:02,439
Speaker 1: and I mean you've got a lot of adults still

1047
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 1: doing that. But you know, I think it would take us.

1048
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 1: It takes a slight tweak if you start sort of

1049
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: characterizing these birds with the superpowers that the Pokemon have.

1050
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 1: So the migratory ability of a yellow warbler, um, the

1051
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 1: singing ability of a wood thrush. I mean, this bird

1052
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:24,840
Speaker 1: is singing, try harmonics. So I think that's not a

1053
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: big leap that brings people into birding in a way

1054
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 1: to say, wow, you know, these are pretty fantastic creatures

1055
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 1: and I can see them. They're real. You know, I

1056
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: don't have to, um, I don't have to contrive them.

1057
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 1: You mentioned kids, Did you like we're birds something you

1058
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 1: were super interested in as a kid. Oh geez, yeah,

1059
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: yeah got early, yeah, because you know they were flying

1060
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 1: and I tried, but you know, too much jelly cake

1061
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 1: and gravity kind of um kept that from happening, but

1062
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 1: probably I would maybe when I was six or seven

1063
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: years old. You know, I was interested in birds because

1064
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: they were they were sort of a vehicle for me

1065
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: to to visit the rest of the world. And I

1066
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 1: always I would climb my grandmother's pecan tree, um and

1067
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 1: uh and you'd get this this this bird's yeah, yeah

1068
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 1: she can. I know, I know, tomato, tomato or whatever,

1069
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 1: but you know it was it gave me a chance

1070
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 1: to to see from a bird's eye view. But I

1071
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 1: wasn't just satisfied with that. I wanted to fly, So

1072
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 1: then I began to, you know, do things like build

1073
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: wings out of cardboard boxes and make parachutes out of

1074
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,600
Speaker 1: trash bags and trying to be Merry Poppins all that

1075
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:45,560
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And none of that stuff worked. But

1076
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 1: birds didn't fail at that, right, You'd see them doing

1077
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 1: this thing that you wanted to do. And then my grandmother,

1078
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 1: she's the first person I ever saw in my mouth.

1079
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 1: She I saw her feedbirds. And no, she didn't have

1080
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: sunflower seed, she didn't have millet, she didn't have all

1081
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: this stuff. What she did have were bags of grits

1082
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: and she would take a handful of grits and throw

1083
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:12,600
Speaker 1: them out in the yard. In her backyard when what

1084
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 1: she calls snowbirds junkos would come down in the wintertime,

1085
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,679
Speaker 1: so there'd be this flock of junkos and other sparrows.

1086
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:21,799
Speaker 1: And now I think, you know, my, my, my birder

1087
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 1: brain sort of reverts and I'm like, man, I wish

1088
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:25,559
Speaker 1: I had just looked more carefully. If I had known

1089
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: about the sparrows back then, maybe there was something that

1090
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: was showing up in her backyard that wasn't supposed to

1091
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: show up. But seeing her appreciation for those birds, I

1092
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 1: think was was part of the of of of my

1093
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 1: origin in that way. But flight, you know, you watch

1094
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 1: a you watch a redtail hawk sore and you're like,

1095
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 1: how does that happen? It looks like it's hung up

1096
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 1: there by a string. You know, you watch a peregrine

1097
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:56,759
Speaker 1: falcon dive and uh, I mean, and that's that's super,

1098
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: that's super. That's that's beyond our ability. Even if you

1099
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 1: put on one of those squirrel suits, you know you're

1100
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: not going to be able to do that. So all

1101
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 1: of that to me was fascinating enough that, um, you know,

1102
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a bird. I wanted to be

1103
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 1: a bird, so that it's been a lifelong, lifelong thing

1104
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: for me and the fascination, so to go from watching

1105
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 1: birds too, you know, having it sort of is my

1106
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 1: official hobby, but then being able to be a professional,

1107
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: to be an ornithologist man, you know, it's living a dream.

1108
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,719
Speaker 1: Is there a group of birds that you found yourself

1109
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 1: being partial to and falling in love with more than

1110
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: the rest for some reason? Yeah, that, you know, and

1111
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: that's that that changes. But sparrows in part um because

1112
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 1: they're they're they're brown, they're nondescript, and a lot of

1113
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,640
Speaker 1: times people sort of overlook them, right, So there's some

1114
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: allegories to human behavior and social what what goes on

1115
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: socially with us, But they are when you take the

1116
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 1: time to look at a sparrow, you begin to see

1117
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,560
Speaker 1: these colors on its back. You see these vermiculations, You

1118
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:13,599
Speaker 1: see differences that really bring out this subtle beauty. Yeah,

1119
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 1: the duck hunter version for me would be it's easy

1120
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 1: to right away fall in love with wood duck, but

1121
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 1: then you eventually get to falling in love with how

1122
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: beautiful a god wall is Seeing those fine reds. During

1123
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 1: the time you were doing research uh, you just work

1124
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 1: with bluebirds. Yeah, remember how I mean everybody knows this

1125
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: is where there um uh you know they're like a

1126
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: symbol of monogamy right allegedly. Yeah. I don't know, like

1127
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 1: I don't know what specifically you worked up. I know

1128
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: you you looked at like reproductive behavior. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1129
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 1: The study was was looking at the Dr Patty Gwatty,

1130
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 1: Patricia A. Derek Gowatty, um, one of the one of

1131
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: the first eco feminists and and and someone who had

1132
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 1: interests and in sort of trying to figure out if

1133
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 1: that whole idea of monogamy in passerines was, um, whether

1134
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 1: she could verify that, um, if you will, by the science.

1135
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,559
Speaker 1: And so what we do is, um, she'd send out

1136
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 1: a crew of us, all male, um, to watch bluebirds

1137
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:37,639
Speaker 1: at the box. Now that there was and I say

1138
01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 1: all male in terms of the crew that was working. Um,

1139
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 1: there may have been a woman or two, but you

1140
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: know in my crew was all male. She'd send us up,

1141
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 1: but not by design, I think. So you think it

1142
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 1: was by design? Yeah, because um, here Patty is challenging

1143
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 1: at least at that time the known science, or at

1144
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 1: least challenging assumption. And so to be out these true

1145
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: to each other, that these birds mate for life, and

1146
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,719
Speaker 1: here's a here's a female scientist doing this work, challenging

1147
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: this convention. So I think it's pretty smart to have

1148
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 1: your observers sort of on the other side of the table.

1149
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 1: And you know, we see some of this with current

1150
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 1: research that is shown. You know, the assumption was that

1151
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 1: for the most part, male birds were doing most of

1152
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 1: the singing. Well, guess who the researchers were that were

1153
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,680
Speaker 1: coming up with that most primarily male. When you put

1154
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: female researchers out in the field, they're beginning to find

1155
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: that you have non males singing. So you know, to

1156
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:44,360
Speaker 1: sort of shuffle stuff around, you know, it's yeah, it's

1157
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 1: it's it's important. So we'd watch these boxes and you know,

1158
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:51,760
Speaker 1: you'd see, uh, male at a box, and we would

1159
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 1: band these birds. Most of these birds were uniquely banded

1160
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 1: and been captured and banded, and you'd see a female

1161
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 1: at the box. And because most birds aren't banded, people

1162
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,679
Speaker 1: are seeing those birds and they're assuming, oh, there's the father,

1163
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 1: there's the mother, there's a happy family brewing inside that box. Well,

1164
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,599
Speaker 1: when you begin to look at the behavior of the birds,

1165
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 1: you would see interactions between different birds that would come

1166
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 1: into the territory. So you would see a male, for example,

1167
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: that might do a wing wave and warrible, or that

1168
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: would um in some sort of agonistic behavior go at

1169
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 1: another bird, another male, and you say, oh, he's defending home.

1170
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: He's defending that female. You know, that's sort of the

1171
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 1: easy assumption. You'd see that one female and most you know,

1172
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 1: in terms of the way we thought about birds for

1173
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: most of of of ornithology is that that demure female

1174
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:50,240
Speaker 1: is being defended by that male. Well, you begin to

1175
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:52,600
Speaker 1: really do these and by the way, you see some

1176
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:56,640
Speaker 1: of the most violent fights, some of the most aggression

1177
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 1: between females and on On a occasion, you find a

1178
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 1: dead bluebird and you you know, and inspect it and

1179
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,800
Speaker 1: right in the back of the head, you know it

1180
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 1: would would yeah, I mean it would have been another

1181
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 1: female pecked in. Yeah. Oh yeah, So you know that

1182
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:15,720
Speaker 1: would happen on occasion. But then to look at the

1183
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 1: nestlings and do the genetic study on those birds in

1184
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,040
Speaker 1: the nest, you begin to find out that those birds,

1185
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:27,080
Speaker 1: those young are coming from different birds than the birds

1186
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: that are tending the nest sometimes or that there so

1187
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 1: you know, I started in hindsight. You know, years later

1188
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:39,479
Speaker 1: I started calling it the the Mari Povich Bluebird Project

1189
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 1: because it was like the who's your daddy kind of

1190
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 1: but you know, the question is also who's your mama? Right,

1191
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 1: because you begin to make assumptions about seeing single birds

1192
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,519
Speaker 1: in a nest box, and those assumptions were erroneous. So

1193
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:58,640
Speaker 1: we have a hummingbird eater and a hummingbird shows up.

1194
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 1: My kids like name them like hummingbird or whatever, humming

1195
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 1: Then one day there's two, so they're like, oh, that

1196
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 1: must be a male and the female. It didn't matter

1197
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 1: what went on at that hummingbird nest to fit into

1198
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 1: like a very strict paradigm of that being a couple, right, Yeah,

1199
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 1: And they were somewhere rearing young and just they made

1200
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 1: this whole working for them that very much resembled what

1201
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:23,840
Speaker 1: they see you going on inside their house. There you know, there,

1202
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 1: there you go, and then you know the next step.

1203
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 1: You know, people are thinking, well, the male chooses a mate,

1204
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:32,920
Speaker 1: and you know then they go on to to have

1205
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:36,120
Speaker 1: this family. Well, one of the most important things I

1206
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: think from her work and then this other work, other

1207
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 1: subsequent work has been female choice, that these females are choosing,

1208
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:46,720
Speaker 1: that females are storing sperm, that they're making decisions. Right,

1209
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 1: there's a female choice and these birds they're making decisions

1210
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 1: about who is you know, who's parenting a brood. So

1211
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 1: all of that was I mean it was for me

1212
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 1: at the time, you know, being a field technician, being

1213
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:07,840
Speaker 1: out there watching it and seeing watching it unfold was

1214
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 1: was this huge revelation and it it flew in the

1215
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:15,240
Speaker 1: face of assumption, which you know for a scientist, you know,

1216
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 1: that's like finding gold, right when you're able to find

1217
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 1: something outside of of the norm. So the blue bird

1218
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 1: of happiness, well, maybe happiness doesn't just mean um being

1219
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 1: with that one what that one bird, so to speak,

1220
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 1: Maybe it means making the best decisions. You know, you're

1221
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: not just making it based upon the blueness of the male.

1222
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 1: You know, that was one of the you know, the

1223
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 1: bluer males are more successful than less blue males or

1224
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 1: those kinds of things. Man, you'd find sometimes in a

1225
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 1: couple of boxes, you would find two adult females tending

1226
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 1: a nest, and you would find nest stumping like you

1227
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:54,960
Speaker 1: find in wood ducks for example. Okay, so beginning to

1228
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 1: think about why things like that happen and to move

1229
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:00,479
Speaker 1: past the convention that we have set off as human

1230
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: Two female bluebirds at the same box contending do they

1231
01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 1: each have eggs? Yeah, and it's and it's not like

1232
01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:11,640
Speaker 1: there's not like a resident male. Then uh, there's a

1233
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:16,439
Speaker 1: male that might be there, right, but but but that

1234
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:20,639
Speaker 1: paternity is uncertain, So that whole idea of uncertain paternity.

1235
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,680
Speaker 1: Are you the daddy? The question might not be yes

1236
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,560
Speaker 1: or no, but the best answer is maybe, because the

1237
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: assumption was yeah, you are. You've got to be to

1238
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:33,680
Speaker 1: be investing time here in this nest. So the two

1239
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 1: females that had the two females that had a single nest,

1240
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:39,880
Speaker 1: and they each contributed eggs to the nest for probably

1241
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 1: contributing eggs from many males. Yeah, from you that I mean,

1242
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,719
Speaker 1: that happens. You know, you don't know for sure unless

1243
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: you're doing those analyzes. So but again you're flying in

1244
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 1: the face of convention with that. And and that's cool

1245
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 1: stuff and it's and it's not just the ornithology. So

1246
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:00,640
Speaker 1: then you can begin to think about what, you know,

1247
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,960
Speaker 1: what are the assumptions that we're making about mating patterns,

1248
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,400
Speaker 1: not just in passerines, but it then opens this whole

1249
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 1: world up to think about female choice, you know, because

1250
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:12,560
Speaker 1: the you know, what we're thinking when we're in the

1251
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: white tail woods is what this buck is making it

1252
01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 1: and not that buck. That that buck is is tending

1253
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:24,040
Speaker 1: that buck might not be making the ultimate decision. So

1254
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: you know those so you begin to think about beyond

1255
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 1: birds two mammals. You know, you were asking, well, who

1256
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 1: are these you know, who's what's the mammalian equivalent of

1257
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 1: a birder? Well, you know, in some instances it's a

1258
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:43,759
Speaker 1: it's a it's a hunter who's out watching behavior, who's

1259
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 1: seeing all of these animals and being able to say, well, yeah,

1260
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: what's going what's going on with this? How are our females?

1261
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:57,680
Speaker 1: How are does making decisions? Or how are bucks making decisions?

1262
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 1: Who's the choosier sex? So that was the sort of

1263
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 1: the box that opened with that research. And that's when

1264
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, I'd be out there and I'd see all

1265
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 1: kinds of birds. I mean, i'd see Bible links, I'd

1266
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 1: see metal larks, I'd see a scissor tail flycatcher or

1267
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: two on occasion, which at that time was pretty rare

1268
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 1: in South Carolina. So between these box checks there were

1269
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:24,680
Speaker 1: these opportunities to bird, but then being an ornithologist and

1270
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 1: shifting from ornithologists to birdwatcher, from ornithologists to birdwatcher. After

1271
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 1: a while, these things began to sort of blur. The

1272
01:20:31,479 --> 01:20:33,960
Speaker 1: lines began to blur, and for me, that's where the

1273
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 1: excitement occurs when you can blur those lines between the two.

1274
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:42,280
Speaker 1: In ornithology, probably more than any other um kind of

1275
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:49,080
Speaker 1: taxonomic sort of following, has the most volunteers. It depends

1276
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:51,719
Speaker 1: on all of these people who are out there gathering

1277
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:54,600
Speaker 1: all this data um in, putting a lot of it

1278
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,080
Speaker 1: into E bird doing Christmas bird counts, doing all these things.

1279
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:01,720
Speaker 1: That data is what we ultimately have the best data

1280
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,600
Speaker 1: that we have to say anything about global or or

1281
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 1: or continental trends and birds. So it depends a lot

1282
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:14,800
Speaker 1: on those people getting out there who nobody's paying as

1283
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 1: a professional ornithologist to do ornithology, and they are probably

1284
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:26,679
Speaker 1: not calling themselves ornithologists, but ornithologists ultimately depend on birders,

1285
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 1: bird watchers, bird lovers, bird of doors, bird ists. They

1286
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 1: ultimately depend on those people to pull the data back.

1287
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: They're not gurd or Twitter right like you go connecting

1288
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of different ways, and then it's the Citizens

1289
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:44,760
Speaker 1: Science Rise, which is super cool. You get people, uh

1290
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 1: some ownership by getting their data collected. Yeah, I mean

1291
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:54,960
Speaker 1: that you know that that that that crowdsourced science that's

1292
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 1: out there to to put ten thousand people on the ground.

1293
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:02,720
Speaker 1: I'm try to pay those people, right, that's not that's

1294
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 1: not going to happen. But the satisfaction from from a

1295
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 1: lot of them derived to know that a little bit

1296
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 1: of what they do that gets in goes a long

1297
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: way to help bird conservation. So you know, you you're

1298
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:19,560
Speaker 1: asking about favorite birds, the most intensively studied birds, the

1299
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:22,320
Speaker 1: most intensively studied birds that we know the most about

1300
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 1: a waterfowl, you know, and because we need to, they

1301
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: need to. The scientists are feeding that data to managers

1302
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:35,240
Speaker 1: who are then setting limits adaptive harvest, adaptive adaptive harvest management.

1303
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 1: And so one of the things when I blur the

1304
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:41,120
Speaker 1: lines with as I'm teaching ornithology, I tell birders, if

1305
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 1: you really want to know your waterfowl, if you want

1306
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 1: to begin to know and understand gestalt and how to

1307
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 1: identify these birds on the wing from what gestalt it's

1308
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 1: a feeling sort of so a feelings not being able

1309
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:57,439
Speaker 1: to see all the field marks, but an impression of

1310
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:00,840
Speaker 1: the bird, an impression that gives you, um uh, the

1311
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 1: the identification ultimately, so how the bird is flying it.

1312
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:05,880
Speaker 1: I'm glad it's a word for that, because it's like

1313
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 1: the people that are good at it's like they shout

1314
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:11,960
Speaker 1: it out there, like, oh, give me a couple of minutes,

1315
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:17,800
Speaker 1: like what are you even looking at in in bad weather?

1316
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 1: You know, in duck weather, which is typically bad weather

1317
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 1: at distances right, and you're not not like now binoculars,

1318
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:26,240
Speaker 1: not being able to stand up out of that blind

1319
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 1: and look, and they're telling you to know how a

1320
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 1: wedgeon moved to know that. We had this conversation where

1321
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 1: when when I was hunting in the Mississippi Delta, we

1322
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:37,920
Speaker 1: had this conversation where like, in a lot of the

1323
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 1: places I grew up hunting and hunting now would be like,

1324
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's mallards and couple of pintails, or it's

1325
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 1: like there's some teal and woodies right, but down there

1326
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:51,880
Speaker 1: I was eleven twelve things and I just get where

1327
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:54,599
Speaker 1: I lose it all. But then people that grow up

1328
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:58,080
Speaker 1: with that are shouting stuff out like there's no possible

1329
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:00,240
Speaker 1: way you can know. Then it gets closer, like how

1330
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 1: did that guy do that? And what happens? What happens

1331
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:07,839
Speaker 1: if you call that waterfowl or a burder? Does anybody

1332
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:15,840
Speaker 1: ever do that? It doesn't happen. But right, that is

1333
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:19,599
Speaker 1: an interesting thing though, right because if if you're hunter

1334
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:22,880
Speaker 1: making some of these claims, all of a sudden, it's

1335
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 1: biased information versus um you know, a random observation taken

1336
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 1: from somebody as credible as a burder, which is something

1337
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:36,879
Speaker 1: I've run into in the past, and it's really interesting.

1338
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 1: Like in like we we talked about, Um, I was

1339
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:46,120
Speaker 1: at a fishing game meeting lots of people talking about

1340
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:50,240
Speaker 1: how there were no more wolves and there's this this

1341
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:53,840
Speaker 1: idea of putting some money into a general fund to

1342
01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 1: do more wolf control work in Idaho, and half the

1343
01:24:58,200 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: room there was like, well, there's no wolves to begin

1344
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 1: if all the wolves are gone, before you can hunt wolves.

1345
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 1: We used see wolves all the time, and now that

1346
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 1: you can hunt wolves, we've never seen them. Um. And

1347
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:14,680
Speaker 1: that was like, uh, generally, well taken observation from the

1348
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:19,480
Speaker 1: general recreation crowd. But when I stood up and identified

1349
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:22,679
Speaker 1: myself as a hunter, said well, I run into wolf

1350
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 1: sign all the time. I've seen a few wolves, but

1351
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 1: I've seen plenty of sign. That is a biased opinion

1352
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:35,200
Speaker 1: because I'm there wanting to take elk out of the woods. Uh,

1353
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:38,240
Speaker 1: And it's not taken into consideration that I'm also where

1354
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:46,080
Speaker 1: the wolves are. Yeah. Um. And so when you have

1355
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 1: a quote consumptive user making a report, oftentimes I've seen

1356
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: it where those reports are discounted. I just had this

1357
01:25:57,080 --> 01:26:00,479
Speaker 1: conversation with I'll just talk about him, you know, he's

1358
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:04,599
Speaker 1: not here. I had this conversation with Lauren where one

1359
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:08,720
Speaker 1: of our camera guys is telling Happy Birthday. He was

1360
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:12,479
Speaker 1: snowbeling in a mountain range that I didn't know head links,

1361
01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:16,040
Speaker 1: and he's sang I saw links in that mountain range,

1362
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:18,599
Speaker 1: And then I spent ten minutes trying to convince him

1363
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 1: that he was looking at a bobcat, to which he

1364
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:28,600
Speaker 1: got a little frustrated. Right. Yeah, it's just like you like,

1365
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you know, when it comes to

1366
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 1: the observational, you know, there's absolutely yeah, everybody's not taking

1367
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:37,560
Speaker 1: everybody at faith value. But if cal had said that,

1368
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:43,200
Speaker 1: you'd have been like, no, ship. Yeah, because he's a

1369
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 1: camera guy who doesn't hunt. Yeah, yeah, I did to

1370
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:50,760
Speaker 1: him what I don't like people doing to me. In

1371
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 1: some in some states, I don't know about Montana, but

1372
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:57,559
Speaker 1: in some states, water flowers have to pass proficiency tests. Yeah,

1373
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 1: especially states where you have like, uh, for example, Oregon,

1374
01:27:03,560 --> 01:27:07,439
Speaker 1: right where you have the dusky goose. That's like there's

1375
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:10,759
Speaker 1: very few of them. They're in a very specific place.

1376
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 1: You got to know exactly how to identify them on

1377
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:17,519
Speaker 1: the wing. Yeah, it looks mostly like a snow goose. Yeah,

1378
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 1: it's like very different until it's not. And then the

1379
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 1: thing is, if that bird is in your bag, you

1380
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 1: know you're gonna as a as a water fowler, you're

1381
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 1: gonna pay a penalty, a severe penalty for that. Birders

1382
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 1: don't pay severe penalties for misidentifying a bird with binoculars.

1383
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:41,719
Speaker 1: I mean other other other than losing credits, other other

1384
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:44,320
Speaker 1: than that, you know, and and in the community, that

1385
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 1: can be a strong thing, and it can also be

1386
01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 1: a to turn it to bring in other people forward

1387
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 1: in birding. You know, if somebody is so fanatical that

1388
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 1: they're going to criticize somebody because they misidentified a house

1389
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:57,679
Speaker 1: finch is a purple finch, and then they're suddenly persona

1390
01:27:57,760 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 1: on gratta because they misidentified that one bird that yeah,

1391
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:06,200
Speaker 1: that's not cool, you know, so that that's and those

1392
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:10,040
Speaker 1: are some of the blurred lines that you get in

1393
01:28:10,479 --> 01:28:12,400
Speaker 1: in this thing that we do. And of course people

1394
01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:15,719
Speaker 1: run across the gamut. Most most birders are perfectly fine,

1395
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 1: really nice, you know, people who want to involve others.

1396
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 1: But then you run into those folks that that's the pressure,

1397
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:25,479
Speaker 1: right that they want to positively and everybody wants to

1398
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 1: positively identify these things. Yeah, but I run into, you know,

1399
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,120
Speaker 1: situations where um, I've got to out counsel people on

1400
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:35,760
Speaker 1: an identification that that probably was not an ivy bill

1401
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:39,920
Speaker 1: woodpecker at your feeder, and and you know, and and

1402
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:42,760
Speaker 1: and the way that we do that is not me

1403
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 1: discounting who they are as a person because they misidentified

1404
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 1: that bird, but really to you know, to have a

1405
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 1: conversation about it, So what what did you see? And

1406
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:56,360
Speaker 1: and and I'll tell you nine times out of ten

1407
01:28:56,439 --> 01:28:58,160
Speaker 1: people come around and they you can hear that, you

1408
01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:00,400
Speaker 1: can hear the change, and they're calling the you marks

1409
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:03,320
Speaker 1: and they're saying, oh, well, yeah, you know that that

1410
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:05,920
Speaker 1: probably was affiliated. Boom, there you go. I'm glad you

1411
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 1: say affiliated, you know, instead appiliated. You kind of screwed

1412
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 1: up on pecans. Yeah, well so I made up for it, right,

1413
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:15,080
Speaker 1: I wanna I want to do a bunch of quick

1414
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:17,040
Speaker 1: hit things. Yeah, so I'm gonna hit you with something.

1415
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:18,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hit you with some things, and then because

1416
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:20,479
Speaker 1: I want to get I want to burn through some stuff. Cool.

1417
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 1: One of our guys who's not here, um, had this

1418
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:27,280
Speaker 1: one for you. How are you for the camp robber?

1419
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 1: Like whiskey? How do they find when you kill an

1420
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:35,880
Speaker 1: elk in the mountains? How do they know within thirty seconds?

1421
01:29:36,320 --> 01:29:40,600
Speaker 1: They're always watching. It's visual. It's not smell, probably not,

1422
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 1: even though we you know, we know that some birds

1423
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: have more in a more acute sense of smell than

1424
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:49,639
Speaker 1: we thought. But you know, think about how those birds

1425
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,720
Speaker 1: just appear out of nowhere, and there's a network. They're

1426
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:57,280
Speaker 1: also watching other things, right, so they're they're also watching.

1427
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 1: But they're usually the first ones, from my understanding, get

1428
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 1: to I think about, you know, up in Denali again,

1429
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:05,600
Speaker 1: here I get into camp and suddenly here are you know,

1430
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:09,559
Speaker 1: here for whiskey jacks. There they are. I didn't see

1431
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:12,160
Speaker 1: whiskey jacks. Again, Those two weeks I was up there,

1432
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 1: I didn't see them. And so they're always watching. But

1433
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:20,479
Speaker 1: like in the case of coming to a hunter's kill,

1434
01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 1: like are they watching the person? They like, I see

1435
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:28,960
Speaker 1: them come and check on you, whether you've killed something

1436
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:32,120
Speaker 1: or not. That there's like a learning process there, like

1437
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:36,280
Speaker 1: that guy, something good might happen. It's you know, and

1438
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:39,440
Speaker 1: and this is again sort of the fluid, the beautifully

1439
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 1: fluid nature of the science is that we're learning. So

1440
01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:49,040
Speaker 1: we can't keep up with what birds know, how they learned.

1441
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:54,200
Speaker 1: So you know, Jay's or crow cousins m hm, you know,

1442
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:58,200
Speaker 1: as we know and sort of how we measure. We say, oh, well,

1443
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 1: they're extremely intelligent, but we don't know the stat you know,

1444
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:05,280
Speaker 1: how they learn, how fast they learn, you know, being

1445
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 1: able to track a hunter, to say, or to think

1446
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:12,360
Speaker 1: about you as a predator. Right, so we know that

1447
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:16,080
Speaker 1: some birds follow predators, you know, with that whole idea

1448
01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:19,679
Speaker 1: of benefiting from the kill. What's to keep a whiskey

1449
01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:23,960
Speaker 1: jack from seeing you that way? So you know, again,

1450
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:27,360
Speaker 1: to to loosen the bounds of convention and sort of

1451
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:31,320
Speaker 1: think about um. Part of it is is ego on

1452
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 1: our part, hubris to to think, well, yeah, we're the

1453
01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:38,680
Speaker 1: only ones who can do that. Yeah, and um, and

1454
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:44,960
Speaker 1: to to not project our measures of intelligence on other creatures.

1455
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 1: I I do make sure that they know I'm providing. Oh,

1456
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 1: I'm fully talking to them on throwing send you high

1457
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:59,320
Speaker 1: up in trees i'd were. I want to let them

1458
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:01,040
Speaker 1: know that if they were to come across a bunch

1459
01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 1: of elk kind of day when they're not talking, they

1460
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:06,479
Speaker 1: can let me know. And it's gonna one win. We

1461
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:10,000
Speaker 1: all went those things, those things and magpies, like magpies

1462
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 1: can really choke down a lot of fat man. Well,

1463
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:17,960
Speaker 1: well think I mean if and and I don't have

1464
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:23,600
Speaker 1: specific examples, but if you think about indigenous culture and

1465
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 1: you think about, um, what people have known for a

1466
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:31,639
Speaker 1: very long time how to watch birds to perhaps put

1467
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:34,880
Speaker 1: them on game, but also in terms of what you're

1468
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 1: doing saying showing appreciation to that bird, and what that

1469
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:44,200
Speaker 1: bird learns or what what any of these things are?

1470
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 1: You know. It's again why I get to this point

1471
01:32:47,040 --> 01:32:50,680
Speaker 1: of talking about birds oftentimes more as who's than what

1472
01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, to try to give some sort of credit for, um,

1473
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:00,479
Speaker 1: what we don't know about them. You know, Uh, I

1474
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 1: make assumptions like everybody else on on certain birds that

1475
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:07,240
Speaker 1: maybe this shrike, this loggerhead shrike that I'm seeing, this

1476
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:09,760
Speaker 1: butcher bird that you know, I've kind of fallen in

1477
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:13,160
Speaker 1: love with because they're they're such cool birds. They code

1478
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:17,160
Speaker 1: switch right there, passerins um but they're also raptorial and

1479
01:33:17,240 --> 01:33:18,920
Speaker 1: what they in terms of what they do, their feet

1480
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:22,000
Speaker 1: aren't strong enough to to carry prey and hold it,

1481
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:25,479
Speaker 1: so they impale their prey on thorns and barbed wire

1482
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:29,280
Speaker 1: fences and that kind of thing. That's that's that's super cool. Yeah,

1483
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:32,599
Speaker 1: why but you know, to watch that bird I'm seeing,

1484
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:35,320
Speaker 1: I've seen what I think. I haven't marked the bird,

1485
01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:39,759
Speaker 1: I haven't banded it, but for like three four years,

1486
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:42,240
Speaker 1: this bird that hangs out in the same corner of

1487
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:46,720
Speaker 1: one of my patches, and so I make certain assumptions,

1488
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 1: poetic assumptions maybe about this bird and who it is.

1489
01:33:50,280 --> 01:33:54,800
Speaker 1: And man, I've written this bird letters right because it's

1490
01:33:55,400 --> 01:33:58,920
Speaker 1: for me. It's uh, you know, it's a it's it's

1491
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:01,680
Speaker 1: like a kind of worsh to be able to have

1492
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 1: a relationship with a creature in that way, across those boundaries,

1493
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:08,960
Speaker 1: and so I can respect it for what it does,

1494
01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:12,320
Speaker 1: who it is, what it is, and I don't know

1495
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:15,840
Speaker 1: what that bird's thinking of me at all, but it

1496
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:19,599
Speaker 1: gives me this sort of deeper move into this place

1497
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:22,720
Speaker 1: of of of of being a bird watcher, of being

1498
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 1: a bird adorer. So you know, that's the way that

1499
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:29,120
Speaker 1: I try to I mean, it's it's it's the same way,

1500
01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:31,759
Speaker 1: and sitting in a deer stand and watching and sometimes

1501
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:34,960
Speaker 1: getting so caught up that I'm not taking a shot

1502
01:34:35,240 --> 01:34:37,639
Speaker 1: where I'm thinking about those animals in sort of these

1503
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:41,000
Speaker 1: different ways, so all of it is kind of line

1504
01:34:41,120 --> 01:34:46,320
Speaker 1: blurring for me. And ornithology is a birding is a

1505
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:49,479
Speaker 1: perfect way to sort of get into that, into that space.

1506
01:34:50,200 --> 01:34:53,560
Speaker 1: So you know, I talked to to it to my my, My,

1507
01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 1: my mentor. She's still my mentor Petty Gawaddy from time

1508
01:34:56,439 --> 01:34:58,880
Speaker 1: to time, you know, and I thank her all the

1509
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 1: time for that. She taught me how to be a scientist,

1510
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,680
Speaker 1: you know, that whole idea of getting out there and

1511
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:08,880
Speaker 1: objectively gathering the data and being rigorous. I mean it

1512
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 1: was hard work. But then also for her helping me

1513
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:19,040
Speaker 1: understand how you begin to make the linkages between you know,

1514
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:23,040
Speaker 1: science and perhaps even policy, because every every policy begins

1515
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:28,640
Speaker 1: with with one person's agenda, and so it's blurry and

1516
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:31,360
Speaker 1: and birds are the way that I go through life, blurry,

1517
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:34,240
Speaker 1: a dig who they are, and I sometimes still wish

1518
01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:37,560
Speaker 1: I was a bird. So there's that. Uh, here's the

1519
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:41,720
Speaker 1: next one. In fifty years, you handle us however you want.

1520
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:44,720
Speaker 1: In fifty years, are people hunting bob white quail in

1521
01:35:44,760 --> 01:35:49,240
Speaker 1: the American South? Yeah, because they've raised them in pins

1522
01:35:49,280 --> 01:35:52,360
Speaker 1: and they're putting them out. Oh that's what that's what,

1523
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:55,439
Speaker 1: that's what it's gonna take. I don't think that's I

1524
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:59,320
Speaker 1: think it would take. Let me put it this way. Uh,

1525
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: we aren't approaching it the right way. I don't think. Um,

1526
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:06,360
Speaker 1: you know, to have a put and take fishery as

1527
01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 1: it were, sort of put and take huntery here is

1528
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 1: is basically what it is. And um, you gotta look

1529
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:15,360
Speaker 1: at the ethic of the hunter. If we're talking about

1530
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 1: hunter conservationists, then we got a chance. If we're talking

1531
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:21,519
Speaker 1: about people who just want to go in, put a kernel,

1532
01:36:21,520 --> 01:36:23,800
Speaker 1: a corn on a hook and get a trout, then

1533
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:27,599
Speaker 1: probably not. What is what like what in your view

1534
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:33,160
Speaker 1: is driving or drove the decline? Or is it the

1535
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:35,599
Speaker 1: same like death by a thousand cuts kind of thing?

1536
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 1: I think it's death by a thousand cuts, Steve, But

1537
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:42,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is UM is cultural.

1538
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:44,280
Speaker 1: You know, when you look at the loss of the

1539
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:48,719
Speaker 1: small family farm UM, when you look at clean farming

1540
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:52,640
Speaker 1: ditch to ditch, when you think about UM, what we

1541
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 1: lost in that in terms of of this edge habitat,

1542
01:36:56,520 --> 01:37:01,479
Speaker 1: of these patches, this patchwork quilt across landscapes that UM

1543
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:08,720
Speaker 1: as you know, agriculture became more UM efficient than you

1544
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:11,200
Speaker 1: know people are are farming road to row. You can't

1545
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:15,720
Speaker 1: lose a single lynch of that of that field. And

1546
01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:18,759
Speaker 1: so those ditches that used to grow up in weedy

1547
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:24,000
Speaker 1: tangles and briars and ragweed, all that stuff, you lose that. Well,

1548
01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:26,800
Speaker 1: then you compound that with something like red imported fire

1549
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:30,639
Speaker 1: ants UM that and to see that that's a that's horrific.

1550
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:35,240
Speaker 1: To see fire ants on a nest of hatching bi

1551
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:39,080
Speaker 1: white quail eggs, that's and and to see those you know,

1552
01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:42,200
Speaker 1: those those those chicks can't even some of they can't

1553
01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:44,599
Speaker 1: even get out of the shell before they're being eaten alive.

1554
01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:49,520
Speaker 1: So you've got that, You've got in some of these landscapes,

1555
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:54,680
Speaker 1: proliferation of of of edge predators but what we discount

1556
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:58,080
Speaker 1: in terms of edge predators, of proliferation of of outdoor

1557
01:37:58,160 --> 01:38:02,160
Speaker 1: cats um that are killing billions and billions of birds,

1558
01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 1: so you know, keep fluffy inside. So all of those

1559
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 1: things do compound it. But then again, you know, I say,

1560
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:12,479
Speaker 1: where effort is spread out, where all your eggs aren't

1561
01:38:12,479 --> 01:38:15,559
Speaker 1: in one basket. You know, this isn't again any theory

1562
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:18,720
Speaker 1: that I can prove, But I think that network, those

1563
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:23,879
Speaker 1: patches of small farms were an opportunity to mitigate damage

1564
01:38:24,120 --> 01:38:28,599
Speaker 1: large scale UM. And so culturally, you just don't see

1565
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:31,760
Speaker 1: those small family farms. You don't, you don't, you don't

1566
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,200
Speaker 1: see them. And I think that's a part of the issue.

1567
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:38,040
Speaker 1: And I also think, you know, it's been burned into

1568
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:42,439
Speaker 1: our minds now over the last few decades of quail

1569
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:44,560
Speaker 1: declined that the only place that quail are going to

1570
01:38:44,680 --> 01:38:48,240
Speaker 1: get saved is in those large ten thousand acre landholdings

1571
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:52,599
Speaker 1: where they're doing fantastic management. But they're doing management at

1572
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:55,720
Speaker 1: a scale of both ecology and economy that a ford

1573
01:38:55,840 --> 01:38:59,640
Speaker 1: or a forty acre landholder landholder is not gonna be

1574
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:02,800
Speaker 1: able to accomplished. So that's a to me, that's a

1575
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:06,400
Speaker 1: cultural issue. UM of of how we think about and

1576
01:39:06,479 --> 01:39:10,760
Speaker 1: how our mindset has changed about what quail are. So

1577
01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:13,360
Speaker 1: it used to be, you know, Bob white partridges. Now

1578
01:39:13,400 --> 01:39:16,640
Speaker 1: as a gentleman, Bob, you know, and you might be

1579
01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:21,280
Speaker 1: out there with a fifty dollar um shotgun after these

1580
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:24,000
Speaker 1: birds with dogs that have got bloodlines that have gone

1581
01:39:24,040 --> 01:39:28,720
Speaker 1: on forever, um eaten lunch in the middle of these

1582
01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:33,720
Speaker 1: piney woods on you know, fine linen and um and boneware.

1583
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:37,639
Speaker 1: And then you get back out there to the next

1584
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:41,519
Speaker 1: group of quail. Well, people who are doing that, you know,

1585
01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:45,960
Speaker 1: they want to push covees. And so we have to

1586
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:49,439
Speaker 1: ask ourselves a question, Um, do we want quail just

1587
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:54,360
Speaker 1: for hunting, for killing or do we want the experience

1588
01:39:54,439 --> 01:39:57,880
Speaker 1: of having those birds on landscapes and ways that is

1589
01:39:57,920 --> 01:40:00,760
Speaker 1: good for the bird and good for the And I

1590
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:02,880
Speaker 1: think we can I think we can do that. I

1591
01:40:02,960 --> 01:40:04,519
Speaker 1: think we can do that. I mean I, you know,

1592
01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:07,880
Speaker 1: on on my piece of land and um in ninety

1593
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 1: six in Greenwood County, South Carolina. Man, I remember I

1594
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:16,080
Speaker 1: was actually coming out of the field one day and

1595
01:40:16,400 --> 01:40:18,200
Speaker 1: something all of a sudden, I'd stopped at the gate

1596
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:22,120
Speaker 1: and all these things start running around my feet and

1597
01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:27,160
Speaker 1: their button quail you know, they're these little, these little

1598
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:31,719
Speaker 1: bumblebee quail rather and to have quail reproducing on that property,

1599
01:40:32,040 --> 01:40:34,760
Speaker 1: to me was like having some endangered species on it

1600
01:40:35,960 --> 01:40:39,519
Speaker 1: um that they in that setting, within that within that setting,

1601
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:42,840
Speaker 1: and to know that, you know, that's land that's been

1602
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:45,640
Speaker 1: in my family for generations and now I have the

1603
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:50,040
Speaker 1: responsibility of steward ing it. That bob white quail have

1604
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:52,200
Speaker 1: become for me one of the things that I want

1605
01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 1: to manage for. So how do I do that on

1606
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:57,519
Speaker 1: that acreage? I mean, I'm not rich. How do I

1607
01:40:57,840 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 1: how do I get it burned? How do I keep

1608
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:04,360
Speaker 1: the timber thin? You know? How do I keep chickasaw

1609
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:09,439
Speaker 1: plumb um uh as as part of that landscape? All

1610
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:11,479
Speaker 1: of that is something that I think about. And it's

1611
01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:14,040
Speaker 1: not just thinking about hearing that bird whistle, just thinking

1612
01:41:14,080 --> 01:41:17,200
Speaker 1: about what the rest of that land can be because

1613
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:23,000
Speaker 1: of that bird. Uh You just mentioned your family's parcel

1614
01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:25,200
Speaker 1: and I'm a little I'm a little hazy on some

1615
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:30,800
Speaker 1: of the details from your book, but explain how, Like

1616
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:37,120
Speaker 1: I remember your family came as slaves to the area

1617
01:41:37,200 --> 01:41:41,160
Speaker 1: where you still reside in the seventeen nineties. Yeah, maybe, yeah,

1618
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:45,160
Speaker 1: Like what was the what was the pathway from that

1619
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:48,840
Speaker 1: from being there on the landscape as a slave to

1620
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:52,479
Speaker 1: you guys having family farms? Did you go did your

1621
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 1: did your ancestors go through like share cropping and into

1622
01:41:57,439 --> 01:42:00,320
Speaker 1: into landownership down the road and far an aggregate culture

1623
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:03,519
Speaker 1: because you like you grew up on a family farm. Yeah, yeah,

1624
01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's one of the mysteries. And and um,

1625
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:10,240
Speaker 1: one of the things that that frequently happens, especially with

1626
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:13,639
Speaker 1: descendants of enslaved in black families, is those records sort

1627
01:42:13,680 --> 01:42:16,680
Speaker 1: of get muddled. From all I can tell, I have

1628
01:42:16,920 --> 01:42:22,519
Speaker 1: never heard any of my family talk about sharecropping, and

1629
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:27,360
Speaker 1: so when we came into this land, they may have, right, Um,

1630
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:32,360
Speaker 1: but my recollection and thinking about um, the land and

1631
01:42:32,439 --> 01:42:35,600
Speaker 1: the research that I've been able to do, is that

1632
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:39,280
Speaker 1: it came into our possession, at least the land that

1633
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:43,080
Speaker 1: we were on, probably when my grandfather got back from

1634
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:46,840
Speaker 1: World War One. So and he came back from World

1635
01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 1: War One in um in nineteen eight late nineteen eighteen,

1636
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:54,400
Speaker 1: early nineteen nineteen, so who was in and he became

1637
01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:57,760
Speaker 1: a farmer, Yes, yeah, yeah, he you know, he was

1638
01:42:57,840 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 1: farming the land. And you know, amazingly when I look

1639
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:06,240
Speaker 1: at what Edgefield was politically and and and how black

1640
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:11,040
Speaker 1: folks were being treated that My grandfather became a successful farmer,

1641
01:43:11,080 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: had a successful during the Depression egg and milk business,

1642
01:43:15,479 --> 01:43:17,920
Speaker 1: and was receiving farm made I found some of his

1643
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:24,160
Speaker 1: old maps. It was receiving Farm Service Agency assistance in

1644
01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:29,960
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty two, so you know, it speaks to this stewardship. Um,

1645
01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 1: but when that land came actually if it came into

1646
01:43:33,120 --> 01:43:37,400
Speaker 1: possession before that. Now there are stories, um that sort

1647
01:43:37,439 --> 01:43:40,719
Speaker 1: of circulated around the family about well he that somehow

1648
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 1: he came back from World War One and had gold

1649
01:43:44,439 --> 01:43:47,320
Speaker 1: or these other things. I don't know, they're interesting stories

1650
01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:50,240
Speaker 1: to consider. But what I want to know is I

1651
01:43:50,360 --> 01:43:53,120
Speaker 1: really had a gold, mean, like found it earlier. They

1652
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:56,760
Speaker 1: came back somehow came back from from World War One,

1653
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:00,599
Speaker 1: you know, bearing gold. You know who knows. I remember

1654
01:44:00,640 --> 01:44:02,759
Speaker 1: my you know, my brother used to wander around the woods.

1655
01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:05,120
Speaker 1: I mean he sort of became obsessed, seriously, he became

1656
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:08,800
Speaker 1: obsessed with it, you know, and and he'd go yeah,

1657
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:12,960
Speaker 1: yeah that he that he yeah that he was going

1658
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:17,479
Speaker 1: out looking for looking for this goal. But um, that's

1659
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:19,960
Speaker 1: one of the things that sort of eats at me

1660
01:44:21,120 --> 01:44:26,200
Speaker 1: is wanting to know that history more completely. And it's

1661
01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:30,680
Speaker 1: and it's not like waiting in some library somewhere. It's gone, no, no,

1662
01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:33,080
Speaker 1: And and that's what's happened in the South with a

1663
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:35,600
Speaker 1: lot of um, with a lot of history, especially a

1664
01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:37,320
Speaker 1: lot of Black history. A lot of it's been burned,

1665
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:41,000
Speaker 1: got burned up in in courthouses burning down. And it's

1666
01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:43,160
Speaker 1: and it's always interesting to me how courthouses were the

1667
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:47,720
Speaker 1: first things to burn down. Um, But yeah, it's and

1668
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:51,200
Speaker 1: so you have to sort of stitch together this history

1669
01:44:51,320 --> 01:44:53,600
Speaker 1: from this one. So I go from you know, this

1670
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:59,160
Speaker 1: this paternal ancestor of of coming in about seventeen ninety, right,

1671
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,479
Speaker 1: and then picking up when I do you know, and

1672
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:03,840
Speaker 1: I belonged to some of these ancestry groups and that

1673
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:09,840
Speaker 1: kind of thing, picking up ancestors in the eighteen thirties, right,

1674
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:13,200
Speaker 1: So what was happening between seventeen ninety and eighteen thirty

1675
01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:16,680
Speaker 1: and then an ancestor that was brought in on an

1676
01:45:16,720 --> 01:45:22,639
Speaker 1: illegal importation slavery importation became illegal I think eighteen o five,

1677
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:26,880
Speaker 1: eighteen o seven, something like that. So then breeding plantations

1678
01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 1: wrapped up because the production of of enslaved depended upon

1679
01:45:32,200 --> 01:45:36,000
Speaker 1: domestic production. That sounds sick to even talk about, but

1680
01:45:36,280 --> 01:45:39,439
Speaker 1: it was sixty years before the abolition of slavery that

1681
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:43,560
Speaker 1: they made that you couldn't import slaves. Yeah yeah. So

1682
01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:49,120
Speaker 1: so then there's an ancestor that comes into jack Al Island,

1683
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:54,200
Speaker 1: Georgia in eighteen fifty seven on a converted yacht. And

1684
01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:58,960
Speaker 1: you've you've heard about the the the the ship that

1685
01:45:59,160 --> 01:46:01,639
Speaker 1: was found in the slave ship that was found down

1686
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:07,200
Speaker 1: and um in Alabama. Those were bets. People were playing

1687
01:46:07,280 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 1: games with this stuff. So because the bet was, well,

1688
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:15,679
Speaker 1: we can beat the embargo. So this ancestor that comes

1689
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:18,200
Speaker 1: in in eighteen fifty seven from the Congo, her name

1690
01:46:18,240 --> 01:46:21,400
Speaker 1: was Lucy. She came into Jekyl Island, Georgia, and she

1691
01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:24,679
Speaker 1: was three years old. So how does she fit into

1692
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:29,439
Speaker 1: my mento my family's history? You know, how did did

1693
01:46:29,560 --> 01:46:33,799
Speaker 1: Harry have children? This enslave man who was brought south

1694
01:46:34,080 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 1: in seventeen ninety by the Lannam brothers. And then the

1695
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,920
Speaker 1: interesting part of that, those Lannam brothers, they were good

1696
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:45,680
Speaker 1: friends with that guy over in Augusta who is you know,

1697
01:46:46,280 --> 01:46:50,080
Speaker 1: was going to prolong enslaved meant Eli Whitney. So that

1698
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:52,800
Speaker 1: those stories, so you know, when you have those kind

1699
01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:56,160
Speaker 1: of stories wrapped up in your history, you're trying to

1700
01:46:57,040 --> 01:46:59,200
Speaker 1: you lost me Eli Whitney. Yeah, that's the guy that

1701
01:46:59,240 --> 01:47:01,519
Speaker 1: invented the cotton jay exactly. But how does that? How

1702
01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:04,360
Speaker 1: did that? I'm not argument where that I don't really understand.

1703
01:47:04,360 --> 01:47:06,400
Speaker 1: But that was the way it Wasn't then that make

1704
01:47:06,760 --> 01:47:09,920
Speaker 1: because that increased production? Yeah, because he found a way

1705
01:47:09,920 --> 01:47:11,680
Speaker 1: to pull the seeds out of cost, so then you

1706
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:14,040
Speaker 1: could get you could you can handle more of it? Yeah,

1707
01:47:14,040 --> 01:47:16,760
Speaker 1: I got y. Yeah, some some historians say that that

1708
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:19,439
Speaker 1: prolonged it right about fifty years. Got it. It just

1709
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:22,320
Speaker 1: made it, made like more, made more profitable and drove

1710
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:26,320
Speaker 1: more exactly. So so those are bits and pieces of

1711
01:47:26,400 --> 01:47:30,040
Speaker 1: this quilt, you know that that you try to stitch together,

1712
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:35,400
Speaker 1: um and and the land for me, is that is

1713
01:47:35,479 --> 01:47:39,040
Speaker 1: really that template that I'm trying to I guess that

1714
01:47:39,280 --> 01:47:41,840
Speaker 1: that back batting on the quilt. If we're gonna stay

1715
01:47:41,880 --> 01:47:45,720
Speaker 1: with that analogy that you put these pieces on and

1716
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:48,960
Speaker 1: trying to find how these all these pieces fit together,

1717
01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:51,240
Speaker 1: and some of it can never be known. When you

1718
01:47:51,280 --> 01:47:57,280
Speaker 1: said the Landham brothers, yeah, like the Landams JOSIAHS. Landham

1719
01:47:57,280 --> 01:48:02,000
Speaker 1: and his brother who came south from the mid Atlantic,

1720
01:48:02,240 --> 01:48:07,800
Speaker 1: most likely around Prince George's County, Maryland. Um they came south,

1721
01:48:07,920 --> 01:48:11,120
Speaker 1: there was a great sell off of enslaved around the

1722
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:15,200
Speaker 1: mid Atlantic because they had been farming primarily what tobacco,

1723
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:19,519
Speaker 1: and tobacco burns up soil, and some of these founding

1724
01:48:19,560 --> 01:48:22,439
Speaker 1: fathers were going broke and so they began There was

1725
01:48:22,479 --> 01:48:25,639
Speaker 1: this huge sell off of enslaved around seventeen nineties south,

1726
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:30,879
Speaker 1: especially to the Deep South of cotton production, sugarcane production

1727
01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:34,080
Speaker 1: down in places like Louisiana, but also to breeding plantations

1728
01:48:35,240 --> 01:48:39,479
Speaker 1: and so Harry, uh, you know, I have to check

1729
01:48:39,520 --> 01:48:42,280
Speaker 1: myself sometimes when I say it. Harry was in in

1730
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,519
Speaker 1: some ways fortunate in that he didn't end up deep

1731
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:49,759
Speaker 1: deeper south, right, that he ended up um in South

1732
01:48:49,840 --> 01:48:53,240
Speaker 1: Carolina in the Piedmont that's productive for cotton, but it's

1733
01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:55,799
Speaker 1: not nearly as productive as the Black Belt of Alabama

1734
01:48:55,840 --> 01:48:59,880
Speaker 1: because of those soils. So in in thinking about sort,

1735
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:02,560
Speaker 1: you know where fortune you know, what what is that

1736
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:07,280
Speaker 1: saying fortune favors the brave or whatever? Um? You know, fortune?

1737
01:49:07,400 --> 01:49:12,160
Speaker 1: You know, I can't Yeah, fortune favors the bowl. But

1738
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:15,439
Speaker 1: but here's a case where you know fortune favored um,

1739
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:19,840
Speaker 1: you know poor soils, because to to be put further,

1740
01:49:20,360 --> 01:49:23,840
Speaker 1: to be put deeper into hell um, into the deep

1741
01:49:24,000 --> 01:49:27,960
Speaker 1: deep South, where you were getting maybe ten bales of

1742
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:30,639
Speaker 1: cotton per acre, where is only in South Carolina maybe

1743
01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 1: you're only getting two bales of cotton per acre, that

1744
01:49:33,439 --> 01:49:35,200
Speaker 1: was a that was a that was a difference in

1745
01:49:35,960 --> 01:49:39,080
Speaker 1: in life, or to be down in those sugarcane plantations

1746
01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:43,800
Speaker 1: down in Louisiana, or to be somebody's breeding stock as

1747
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:46,800
Speaker 1: a human being. So I think about all of that stuff,

1748
01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:49,720
Speaker 1: and I'm always connecting it to land um. And then

1749
01:49:49,760 --> 01:49:52,320
Speaker 1: I'm always connecting that to birds because birds are sort

1750
01:49:52,360 --> 01:49:56,320
Speaker 1: of the conduit for me to think about history, because

1751
01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:58,040
Speaker 1: I think about some of the birds that I see

1752
01:49:58,080 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 1: at present, and I'm wondering what those birds ancestors are,

1753
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:08,120
Speaker 1: what they flew over, and likewise that my ancestors, we're

1754
01:50:08,160 --> 01:50:12,000
Speaker 1: watching birds, that birds were inspirations for them because the

1755
01:50:12,040 --> 01:50:15,560
Speaker 1: birds were flying free, and that maybe we held that

1756
01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:18,599
Speaker 1: in common, that they wanted to be free as birds,

1757
01:50:19,120 --> 01:50:20,880
Speaker 1: and that I wanted to be a bird and free.

1758
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:24,920
Speaker 1: So you know, there's a convergence there, and all the

1759
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:31,200
Speaker 1: time and watching birds. So yeah, it's um, it's uh,

1760
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'm listing sort of different kinds of

1761
01:50:33,680 --> 01:50:38,679
Speaker 1: things these days, but um, those birds are are stitching

1762
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:43,120
Speaker 1: together time and landscapes for me in ways that UM,

1763
01:50:43,240 --> 01:50:56,320
Speaker 1: A few other things can. In your career, you made

1764
01:50:56,360 --> 01:51:00,760
Speaker 1: a conscious uh I hope on not on or you

1765
01:51:00,840 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 1: might put a different way, but you made a conscious

1766
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:07,920
Speaker 1: switch from like hard science. You can put it how

1767
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:10,360
Speaker 1: you want to put a button, like from hard science

1768
01:51:10,479 --> 01:51:18,120
Speaker 1: to sort of culture people interpretive work. That is that

1769
01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:21,680
Speaker 1: how you describe it. Yeah, you know, I'll always be

1770
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:25,200
Speaker 1: a scientist, always be a naturalist, to always be an ornithologist.

1771
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:27,640
Speaker 1: But part of what I wanted to do was to

1772
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:31,360
Speaker 1: be able to move that science into the masses because

1773
01:51:31,439 --> 01:51:34,439
Speaker 1: you think about um and and you know, I always

1774
01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:37,160
Speaker 1: call the science that we do the scripture. Really, I

1775
01:51:37,240 --> 01:51:41,880
Speaker 1: mean it's it's critically important, um to not deny good

1776
01:51:41,960 --> 01:51:44,600
Speaker 1: science and that data that tells us what's going on,

1777
01:51:45,280 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 1: that gives us some idea of the patterns that are

1778
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:50,160
Speaker 1: out there. But then what good is it if you've

1779
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:55,439
Speaker 1: got nine hundred pages of of data and people don't

1780
01:51:55,479 --> 01:51:58,719
Speaker 1: bother to read any of it. So sometimes it's important

1781
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:01,920
Speaker 1: to be able to take reams of data and get

1782
01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:06,360
Speaker 1: them down to a digestible a digestible portion. I mean,

1783
01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:11,400
Speaker 1: you read different reports. But if if if our attention

1784
01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:14,040
Speaker 1: span is what we can see or pay attention to

1785
01:52:14,240 --> 01:52:19,280
Speaker 1: during a traffic light stop, then people aren't gonna people

1786
01:52:19,280 --> 01:52:21,840
Speaker 1: aren't gonna read those realms of data. So I wanted

1787
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:24,920
Speaker 1: to move to a place of really being able to

1788
01:52:25,080 --> 01:52:30,520
Speaker 1: sort of um, get those to paint pictures with creative

1789
01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:34,360
Speaker 1: writing that moves people to think about the science, to

1790
01:52:34,479 --> 01:52:37,439
Speaker 1: think about what's going on out there, so then maybe

1791
01:52:37,479 --> 01:52:42,680
Speaker 1: they feel something about it. My my, you know, for

1792
01:52:42,840 --> 01:52:46,599
Speaker 1: most science, the um the objective is not to get

1793
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:49,720
Speaker 1: people to feel something about it, but to think about it, right,

1794
01:52:50,360 --> 01:52:54,040
Speaker 1: so to think. Then you know, the science probably doesn't care.

1795
01:52:54,280 --> 01:52:58,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't care whether you feel something about it or not.

1796
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:01,479
Speaker 1: My whole idea is to ark the other way, you know,

1797
01:53:01,560 --> 01:53:03,439
Speaker 1: to get you to feel something about it, so then

1798
01:53:03,479 --> 01:53:05,920
Speaker 1: you think about it, and if you feel something about it,

1799
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:08,639
Speaker 1: think about it. Feel think, feel think feel think feel think.

1800
01:53:09,240 --> 01:53:11,880
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a spark, you know, maybe you get a

1801
01:53:11,920 --> 01:53:14,760
Speaker 1: spark from that reaction back and forth, and you do

1802
01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:17,439
Speaker 1: something about it, not just damn read about it, but

1803
01:53:17,560 --> 01:53:21,760
Speaker 1: do something about it. So that's the you know, that's

1804
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:25,519
Speaker 1: the transition that I've I've willingly made because you know,

1805
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:28,439
Speaker 1: you stand in front of a classroom of of of

1806
01:53:28,600 --> 01:53:31,720
Speaker 1: nineteen and twenty year olds and as you know, an

1807
01:53:31,720 --> 01:53:35,120
Speaker 1: Aldo Liabel Leopold talked about, you know, the danger of

1808
01:53:35,200 --> 01:53:37,679
Speaker 1: being an ecologist was living in a world of wounds

1809
01:53:38,720 --> 01:53:42,320
Speaker 1: and and um Man that was like a quolt factory.

1810
01:53:43,960 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's but very prescient, right way

1811
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:51,800
Speaker 1: ahead of his time in so many ways. But if

1812
01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:53,800
Speaker 1: you're in front of a classroom and you're teaching, you're

1813
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:56,360
Speaker 1: doing this teaching, doing this teaching, and these students and

1814
01:53:56,400 --> 01:53:57,880
Speaker 1: you could see them, I could see them and they

1815
01:53:57,920 --> 01:53:59,840
Speaker 1: were just like their faces are like, well, what the

1816
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:02,800
Speaker 1: all am I supposed to do with all this? You're

1817
01:54:02,840 --> 01:54:04,880
Speaker 1: just feed them this day to day after day after

1818
01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:08,040
Speaker 1: day of how things are going south and there's not

1819
01:54:08,120 --> 01:54:11,599
Speaker 1: gonna be anything left for you to deal with. Well,

1820
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:14,360
Speaker 1: you know, I think you've got to infuse some hope

1821
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:18,320
Speaker 1: so that people have some motivation for doing something rather

1822
01:54:18,439 --> 01:54:20,519
Speaker 1: than just sticking their heads in the sand and saying,

1823
01:54:20,760 --> 01:54:23,360
Speaker 1: you know, fuck it, I'm not it's not for me.

1824
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:25,240
Speaker 1: Let me go over in this department and do this.

1825
01:54:26,600 --> 01:54:30,120
Speaker 1: So that whole idea of moving the science to a

1826
01:54:30,200 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 1: place where I get you here, then I can get

1827
01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:40,040
Speaker 1: you here. And I mean, you know, marketers know that,

1828
01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:43,400
Speaker 1: um and and it's it's it's not too in any

1829
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:46,520
Speaker 1: way diminish or deny the science, but to give it

1830
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:49,160
Speaker 1: an opportunity to dwell in heart as well as head.

1831
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:51,520
Speaker 1: And you can do. I mean, you know, the whole

1832
01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:53,360
Speaker 1: idea of a picture worth a thousand words. You know,

1833
01:54:53,440 --> 01:54:55,120
Speaker 1: I look at this wall here and I can I mean,

1834
01:54:55,160 --> 01:54:59,440
Speaker 1: there's science all over that wall. Now, um, is it

1835
01:54:59,480 --> 01:55:02,280
Speaker 1: gonna pass peer of view? Certain peer view, It's gonna pass.

1836
01:55:02,440 --> 01:55:05,200
Speaker 1: Others are gonna decry it is something else. So, but

1837
01:55:05,360 --> 01:55:08,560
Speaker 1: I think it's important for us as scientists, especially as

1838
01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:12,440
Speaker 1: conservation scientists. It always bothers me when I hear people say, well,

1839
01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:15,680
Speaker 1: I'm not an advocate, you know, I'm a scientist. Well,

1840
01:55:15,760 --> 01:55:18,520
Speaker 1: conservation to me means that you have to be an advocate.

1841
01:55:19,480 --> 01:55:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't see the separation. And I don't think being

1842
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:24,200
Speaker 1: a scientist means that you can't be an advocate. Sure,

1843
01:55:24,320 --> 01:55:29,120
Speaker 1: you gather your objective data gatherer, that's your job to

1844
01:55:29,320 --> 01:55:34,920
Speaker 1: gather data objectively, to report that data objectively, but then

1845
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:38,560
Speaker 1: damn it, do something about it. You know, if their declines,

1846
01:55:38,600 --> 01:55:40,640
Speaker 1: what do you do about those declines? Do you just

1847
01:55:40,720 --> 01:55:43,760
Speaker 1: say there as declines and then report the next decline,

1848
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:46,000
Speaker 1: and report the next decline, and report the next decline.

1849
01:55:46,280 --> 01:55:48,800
Speaker 1: Well it's a little hypocritical, right, It's like, how many

1850
01:55:48,840 --> 01:55:50,640
Speaker 1: folks do you know that go out and get that

1851
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:53,720
Speaker 1: grant to go study and gather data on something they

1852
01:55:53,760 --> 01:55:56,760
Speaker 1: don't give a shit about. Oh happens all the time, right,

1853
01:55:57,120 --> 01:56:01,800
Speaker 1: I mean, oh, sure it does, certainly it does. I mean,

1854
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 1: and then we're on these these two and four year

1855
01:56:04,480 --> 01:56:10,520
Speaker 1: grant cycles, and so I think, um that that that

1856
01:56:10,720 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 1: where we are as scientists, as conservationists. Okay, so let

1857
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:17,240
Speaker 1: me let me let me paint a picture here, so

1858
01:56:17,400 --> 01:56:20,960
Speaker 1: a bridge, you know, think about how so many people

1859
01:56:21,480 --> 01:56:25,160
Speaker 1: came into some sort of knowing about climate change. How

1860
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:29,720
Speaker 1: did that happen? Well, it was all about drowning polar bears.

1861
01:56:31,200 --> 01:56:34,840
Speaker 1: It's all about drowning polar bears. Now, certain sets of

1862
01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:37,880
Speaker 1: people care about drowning polar bears. I mean, now, let

1863
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:40,760
Speaker 1: me say I love polar bears. I'm not trying to

1864
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:43,120
Speaker 1: take anything away from polar bears. I want them to

1865
01:56:43,160 --> 01:56:50,640
Speaker 1: be fine, not trying to exactly. But also that same

1866
01:56:50,800 --> 01:56:55,680
Speaker 1: climate that's melting the polar ice caps is also impacting

1867
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:59,760
Speaker 1: the way people breathe, especially people of color who have

1868
01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:03,840
Speaker 1: of these these asthmatic conditions, for example, at almost a

1869
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:07,920
Speaker 1: tenfold rate of white kids. But people weren't talking or kids,

1870
01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:10,680
Speaker 1: or white kids from Appalachia who have a hard time breathing.

1871
01:57:11,240 --> 01:57:13,520
Speaker 1: But nobody was talking about that. They were talking about

1872
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:16,760
Speaker 1: climate change in polar bears, climate changing polar bears. Why

1873
01:57:16,880 --> 01:57:21,680
Speaker 1: not arc that, Okay, arct that science outside into sociology

1874
01:57:22,160 --> 01:57:25,760
Speaker 1: begin to tell the stories evocatively of how polar bears

1875
01:57:25,800 --> 01:57:28,880
Speaker 1: are drowning and rising seas, but people in the Lord

1876
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:32,000
Speaker 1: ninth ward are also drowning in those rising seas. There's

1877
01:57:32,040 --> 01:57:36,320
Speaker 1: this connection between the great White bear and black black people.

1878
01:57:36,440 --> 01:57:40,000
Speaker 1: So and thinking about that kind of connection, you know,

1879
01:57:40,160 --> 01:57:42,960
Speaker 1: it's hard to get that into peer review in Journal

1880
01:57:43,000 --> 01:57:47,240
Speaker 1: of Wildlife Management. I mean really, and and that's not

1881
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:50,280
Speaker 1: the play spoard. So where does that work go? Where

1882
01:57:50,320 --> 01:57:52,680
Speaker 1: do I put that work? I'm gonna put that work

1883
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:55,720
Speaker 1: somewhere where it reaches the masses. You know, one of

1884
01:57:55,800 --> 01:57:58,760
Speaker 1: the experiments that now I've never done it, but it's

1885
01:57:58,800 --> 01:58:01,440
Speaker 1: one of those things I'm gonna a I'm gonna put

1886
01:58:01,480 --> 01:58:04,600
Speaker 1: good money that if I published an article I don't

1887
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:09,440
Speaker 1: know on painted bunning productivity in the um coastal plane

1888
01:58:09,520 --> 01:58:12,160
Speaker 1: of South Carolina, cal report on it. There you go.

1889
01:58:14,200 --> 01:58:16,320
Speaker 1: So it would be a calciby, It would be a

1890
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:19,600
Speaker 1: calibli so so so so so there it is in

1891
01:58:19,640 --> 01:58:22,960
Speaker 1: the journal, and I tie it back to feral cats. Okay, good,

1892
01:58:23,160 --> 01:58:26,360
Speaker 1: good for you. But if you're the cat. But if

1893
01:58:26,400 --> 01:58:28,440
Speaker 1: you do that, you tied it to feral cats, right,

1894
01:58:28,480 --> 01:58:30,320
Speaker 1: and you've shown in this you know, in this journal

1895
01:58:30,480 --> 01:58:33,640
Speaker 1: article that you know whatever the the impacts are. So

1896
01:58:33,840 --> 01:58:36,360
Speaker 1: there's the there's the journal. Put that on the table

1897
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:40,760
Speaker 1: at the dentist office, right that same article. Put it

1898
01:58:40,840 --> 01:58:43,600
Speaker 1: in the journal, put it in South Carolina Wildlife. And

1899
01:58:43,760 --> 01:58:46,800
Speaker 1: maybe you know you've you've been patient enough as a photographer.

1900
01:58:46,880 --> 01:58:49,560
Speaker 1: You've got you know, a tabby with a with a

1901
01:58:49,640 --> 01:58:53,760
Speaker 1: male painted Bunning in its jaws. And it's a eight

1902
01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:59,480
Speaker 1: hundred word essay. What gets ready, yeah, what gets read?

1903
01:58:59,720 --> 01:59:05,120
Speaker 1: Same data, same data, there's no statistical analysis presented. Really, well,

1904
01:59:05,280 --> 01:59:08,120
Speaker 1: maybe there's the results are presented in that in that

1905
01:59:08,280 --> 01:59:12,480
Speaker 1: South Carolina Wildlife magazine. But that's the challenge, right to

1906
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:17,120
Speaker 1: how how do we get that science done? And from

1907
01:59:17,160 --> 01:59:21,760
Speaker 1: a conservation standpoint, um, I think, yeah, we gotta chase,

1908
01:59:21,880 --> 01:59:26,320
Speaker 1: we gotta chase grant dollars. But to me, the you know,

1909
01:59:26,560 --> 01:59:29,360
Speaker 1: the the proof and the pudding. At the end of

1910
01:59:29,440 --> 01:59:32,959
Speaker 1: the day, it's not just how many articles you've published,

1911
01:59:33,160 --> 01:59:36,600
Speaker 1: but what you've done for conservation beyond that, beyond those words,

1912
01:59:37,200 --> 01:59:40,640
Speaker 1: how do those words come into impact? And so sometimes

1913
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:44,160
Speaker 1: those words come into impact and that scientist continues that

1914
01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:46,440
Speaker 1: work beyond the four year cycle. And that's where you

1915
01:59:46,480 --> 01:59:48,960
Speaker 1: see the love come out in the science when people

1916
01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:52,160
Speaker 1: dedicate their lives to a question, you know, and they're

1917
01:59:52,240 --> 01:59:55,800
Speaker 1: really working to push that into connect with the managers

1918
01:59:55,880 --> 01:59:59,120
Speaker 1: on the ground that they haven't separated that science in

1919
01:59:59,200 --> 02:00:01,240
Speaker 1: a way. So it's say, well, now I'm done with it.

1920
02:00:01,320 --> 02:00:04,240
Speaker 1: It's up to you. So to stay connected with it.

1921
02:00:04,440 --> 02:00:06,600
Speaker 1: I think it's important. It's no different than you know,

1922
02:00:06,760 --> 02:00:11,040
Speaker 1: some commanders staying in connection with with his her their troops.

1923
02:00:12,440 --> 02:00:15,920
Speaker 1: To stay in connection with that science in some way

1924
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:21,000
Speaker 1: to move it forward adaptive research and management. That's a cycle.

1925
02:00:22,200 --> 02:00:25,680
Speaker 1: And somewhere in that cycle of adaptive research and management.

1926
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:28,040
Speaker 1: I think is loving care. I mean, that's just mean,

1927
02:00:28,120 --> 02:00:31,200
Speaker 1: but I don't. I can't see conservation existing without loving care.

1928
02:00:31,400 --> 02:00:37,280
Speaker 1: That's just part of it. Uh. That wasn't a quickie.

1929
02:00:37,320 --> 02:00:41,120
Speaker 1: I know that was a soapbox. But I do have

1930
02:00:41,280 --> 02:00:45,840
Speaker 1: one that I gotta hit is migration. Bird migration, Like,

1931
02:00:45,960 --> 02:00:50,640
Speaker 1: what's the most compelling thing about how birds migrate that

1932
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:54,760
Speaker 1: we know are of research? The most compelling thing is

1933
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:58,440
Speaker 1: that you know, to me, is is thinking about one

1934
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:02,080
Speaker 1: thinking about a orbler that weighs as much as uh,

1935
02:01:02,320 --> 02:01:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, a half handful of paper clips, that that

1936
02:01:05,440 --> 02:01:09,240
Speaker 1: bird launches off of the Yucatan, and that that bird

1937
02:01:10,200 --> 02:01:13,200
Speaker 1: chooses to fly across the Gulf of Mexico some six

1938
02:01:13,280 --> 02:01:16,280
Speaker 1: hundred miles to the to the to the Gulf coast

1939
02:01:16,320 --> 02:01:19,960
Speaker 1: and nirs of Louisiana. And I have seen some of

1940
02:01:20,040 --> 02:01:23,120
Speaker 1: these birds when they're coming ashore, like in in Texas,

1941
02:01:23,920 --> 02:01:27,760
Speaker 1: I've seen a Baltimore oriole barely above the waves. In fact,

1942
02:01:28,200 --> 02:01:30,040
Speaker 1: you know that some of these birds get taken out

1943
02:01:30,080 --> 02:01:35,320
Speaker 1: by fish, right, And so to me that that's uh,

1944
02:01:35,480 --> 02:01:39,120
Speaker 1: this this this heroic story that's compelling, But the science

1945
02:01:39,200 --> 02:01:41,800
Speaker 1: of it again, is how birds do it. The the

1946
02:01:41,960 --> 02:01:47,840
Speaker 1: physiology to be able to flap NonStop for all those hours.

1947
02:01:47,880 --> 02:01:49,400
Speaker 1: And if you want to really get it some kids,

1948
02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:51,040
Speaker 1: you know, if you're ever talking about it in school,

1949
02:01:51,080 --> 02:01:52,800
Speaker 1: you know, tell kids this and they're like, oh, that's

1950
02:01:52,800 --> 02:01:54,840
Speaker 1: not such a big deal. And you say, okay, I'll

1951
02:01:54,920 --> 02:01:57,400
Speaker 1: give I don't know, twenty dollars whatever amount of money

1952
02:01:57,600 --> 02:02:00,160
Speaker 1: to anybody who can keep their arms going like this

1953
02:02:01,680 --> 02:02:04,280
Speaker 1: for the next hour. Nobody can do that and a

1954
02:02:04,360 --> 02:02:07,600
Speaker 1: bird and a bird does it for a day. So

1955
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:11,440
Speaker 1: you know that the capacity of birds to do what

1956
02:02:11,680 --> 02:02:16,080
Speaker 1: they do in migration is amazing to me. That you know,

1957
02:02:16,200 --> 02:02:19,600
Speaker 1: we're our understanding of how they find their way in part,

1958
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's a multiplicity of things, by star compass,

1959
02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:28,720
Speaker 1: by polarized light, some birds, by smell um, by orienting

1960
02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:33,480
Speaker 1: to um, to the Earth's compass. All of that is

1961
02:02:34,280 --> 02:02:39,160
Speaker 1: extraordinarily compelling. And that it's happening for songbirds, for example,

1962
02:02:39,240 --> 02:02:42,360
Speaker 1: in other birds too, but songbirds, we think of this

1963
02:02:42,520 --> 02:02:46,800
Speaker 1: is happening at night, right, you know, you know, we've

1964
02:02:46,840 --> 02:02:49,240
Speaker 1: got our thumbs in our mouths and snoring, and these

1965
02:02:49,320 --> 02:02:52,920
Speaker 1: birds are passing overhead. And then in the morning you

1966
02:02:53,000 --> 02:02:58,520
Speaker 1: wake up and there they are. And then I've never

1967
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:02,360
Speaker 1: seen a migrating cute, not once. And seeing that, and

1968
02:03:02,480 --> 02:03:04,800
Speaker 1: and that that's the thing. That's the thing, something like

1969
02:03:04,960 --> 02:03:08,720
Speaker 1: you know, you think about rails and how sora just

1970
02:03:08,920 --> 02:03:11,200
Speaker 1: show up in the weirdest places. They'll show up in

1971
02:03:11,480 --> 02:03:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, downtown Greenville, South Carolina. And you see and

1972
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:17,440
Speaker 1: you see a sare, it's like you gotta force it

1973
02:03:17,600 --> 02:03:21,280
Speaker 1: to fly. But here these birds are flying hundreds or

1974
02:03:21,360 --> 02:03:24,080
Speaker 1: thousands of miles. A black reel, I mean a black reel.

1975
02:03:24,120 --> 02:03:26,360
Speaker 1: It looks, you know, almost like a you know, a

1976
02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:30,080
Speaker 1: baby chick, like a and and and here this bird

1977
02:03:30,320 --> 02:03:34,640
Speaker 1: is making its way through wetlands, we presume to some

1978
02:03:35,000 --> 02:03:40,760
Speaker 1: to some choice place. So I'm I'm always enthralled by

1979
02:03:40,880 --> 02:03:44,680
Speaker 1: what we know, but I'm also very inspired by what

1980
02:03:44,880 --> 02:03:47,280
Speaker 1: we don't know, and then what we can never know,

1981
02:03:48,120 --> 02:03:49,880
Speaker 1: because there's some of that stuff we can never know.

1982
02:03:50,040 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 1: How that bird makes that decision, what goes off in

1983
02:03:52,960 --> 02:03:55,400
Speaker 1: its brain to say, you know, and I'm sure somebody said, well,

1984
02:03:55,400 --> 02:03:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, when tail wins reached a certain speed, you know,

1985
02:03:58,320 --> 02:04:01,880
Speaker 1: when when the daylight or or or hours daylight hours,

1986
02:04:02,000 --> 02:04:05,280
Speaker 1: or at a certain lumen um it's this time of

1987
02:04:05,360 --> 02:04:09,880
Speaker 1: year the bird has this fat condition, then the probability

1988
02:04:10,280 --> 02:04:15,760
Speaker 1: of it rising in migratory behavior or to exhibit zukunru

1989
02:04:16,200 --> 02:04:19,120
Speaker 1: is this. Yeah, that data is out there, but then

1990
02:04:19,200 --> 02:04:22,120
Speaker 1: there's the part of this bird's brain we can't get into,

1991
02:04:22,600 --> 02:04:26,200
Speaker 1: and we can't we can't know what that feels like

1992
02:04:26,480 --> 02:04:28,440
Speaker 1: to be a bird. And we can know they do

1993
02:04:28,560 --> 02:04:32,880
Speaker 1: those things on a population level, but ultimately they're individuals, right, Yeah,

1994
02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:35,760
Speaker 1: And that one bird, you know, for for a couple

1995
02:04:35,760 --> 02:04:38,680
Speaker 1: of years, there was a scarlet tanager that would show up.

1996
02:04:39,240 --> 02:04:41,520
Speaker 1: And notice I'm saying a scarlet tanager. I would say

1997
02:04:42,000 --> 02:04:46,280
Speaker 1: some scarlet tanagers. But this this bird that shows up

1998
02:04:46,400 --> 02:04:49,320
Speaker 1: and it would sing from the top of this red

1999
02:04:49,440 --> 02:04:52,400
Speaker 1: mulberry tree and it would sing into the sun. And

2000
02:04:52,440 --> 02:04:55,360
Speaker 1: I've I've watched this bird and imagine, you know, this

2001
02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:58,920
Speaker 1: bird is making a transition from the Peruvian Amazon to

2002
02:04:59,040 --> 02:05:04,760
Speaker 1: the piedmonta South Carolina. You know, Andre and sitting and

2003
02:05:04,840 --> 02:05:07,200
Speaker 1: you guys were talking about jaguars, you know, and it's

2004
02:05:07,240 --> 02:05:11,600
Speaker 1: probably looking down at jaguars. It's had to dodge forest falcons.

2005
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:14,440
Speaker 1: At some point it's passed by a harpy eagle maybe

2006
02:05:14,920 --> 02:05:20,040
Speaker 1: And now it's here in my yard. Yeah, that's going like,

2007
02:05:20,160 --> 02:05:25,080
Speaker 1: oh yeah, remember what power lines are, Like, oh yeah,

2008
02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:28,040
Speaker 1: there's this other cat down there. It's more likely to

2009
02:05:28,160 --> 02:05:32,480
Speaker 1: take me out in that jaguar. Hey, what's the what's

2010
02:05:32,520 --> 02:05:35,240
Speaker 1: the latest thinking on whether you're a good or evil?

2011
02:05:35,320 --> 02:05:37,920
Speaker 1: If you have a bird feeder, Well, I must be

2012
02:05:37,960 --> 02:05:41,920
Speaker 1: evil because I have bird feeders. Yeah, I mean, you know,

2013
02:05:42,120 --> 02:05:45,560
Speaker 1: for me, I think you have to be well certainly

2014
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:49,320
Speaker 1: when if you have like avian flu right um, or

2015
02:05:49,680 --> 02:05:52,920
Speaker 1: you have zoo sees that you notice around your feeder,

2016
02:05:53,080 --> 02:05:57,360
Speaker 1: or you get advisories diseases, you know, if if if

2017
02:05:57,720 --> 02:06:02,920
Speaker 1: birds are being impacted by some of these being densely

2018
02:06:03,040 --> 02:06:07,760
Speaker 1: packed at feeders. Yeah, and clean and clean your feeder.

2019
02:06:08,120 --> 02:06:09,800
Speaker 1: You know, you shouldn't have so much gunk in your

2020
02:06:09,840 --> 02:06:11,840
Speaker 1: feeder that you can't tell what's in there other than

2021
02:06:11,920 --> 02:06:13,960
Speaker 1: sort of the mossy stuff that's growing on the outside

2022
02:06:13,960 --> 02:06:16,880
Speaker 1: of it that's also growing the inside. So um, if

2023
02:06:16,920 --> 02:06:19,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna have feeders, you have to be a responsible

2024
02:06:19,240 --> 02:06:23,040
Speaker 1: feeder keeper. Clean your feeders on the regular, clean the

2025
02:06:23,120 --> 02:06:26,840
Speaker 1: watering sources on the regular. Um. I don't feed a

2026
02:06:26,960 --> 02:06:29,760
Speaker 1: whole lot in the summertime because those birds are going

2027
02:06:29,800 --> 02:06:32,520
Speaker 1: out and getting the protein that they need from soft

2028
02:06:32,560 --> 02:06:35,959
Speaker 1: bodied insects and the like for um for their nestlings.

2029
02:06:36,680 --> 02:06:40,080
Speaker 1: So I'll ramp it up in the fall. Um. But

2030
02:06:40,480 --> 02:06:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, I really love feeding birds um in transit um.

2031
02:06:46,360 --> 02:06:48,880
Speaker 1: Part of it is in my head. In my head,

2032
02:06:48,960 --> 02:06:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, as part of this patchwork of

2033
02:06:51,160 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 1: this miraculous deal with migration, I want to be a

2034
02:06:54,760 --> 02:06:58,200
Speaker 1: I want to be a positive in that. So UM.

2035
02:06:59,000 --> 02:07:01,840
Speaker 1: I certainly don't think it an evil, you know, I

2036
02:07:01,960 --> 02:07:04,000
Speaker 1: think it's a I think it's a positive that people

2037
02:07:04,040 --> 02:07:06,520
Speaker 1: can do. It brings wildlife to them, it brings them closer.

2038
02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:08,400
Speaker 1: But I think you have to think about how you

2039
02:07:08,440 --> 02:07:10,360
Speaker 1: do it. Like anything, You've got to be responsible with it.

2040
02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:13,720
Speaker 1: Don't just throw stuff out there and expect things to

2041
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:16,480
Speaker 1: go well if you don't tend to it, because things

2042
02:07:16,520 --> 02:07:20,360
Speaker 1: can go sideways. You had years ago when when krit

2043
02:07:20,480 --> 02:07:22,160
Speaker 1: and I were first talking about having you down, we

2044
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:25,160
Speaker 1: found a thing you've done where it was like it

2045
02:07:25,240 --> 02:07:29,120
Speaker 1: was sort of the nine rules yeah, of being of

2046
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:32,600
Speaker 1: being a black birder or nine rules for birding while black.

2047
02:07:32,720 --> 02:07:35,880
Speaker 1: And when I watched the video, like, you know, it

2048
02:07:35,960 --> 02:07:37,840
Speaker 1: was funny, right, it was. It was like it was

2049
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:43,720
Speaker 1: like funny, Um, you got it, like the delivery was

2050
02:07:43,800 --> 02:07:50,520
Speaker 1: fun right. But I read interviews with you about when

2051
02:07:50,560 --> 02:07:57,320
Speaker 1: you compiled those and it definitely wasn't always funny games. No,

2052
02:07:57,760 --> 02:07:59,720
Speaker 1: you know when when when that was when you were

2053
02:07:59,760 --> 02:08:03,360
Speaker 1: in space? Right, yeah, you know it's it's I remember

2054
02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:06,320
Speaker 1: getting the email from the editor who said, you know,

2055
02:08:06,360 --> 02:08:10,360
Speaker 1: would you write something towards this And she didn't say

2056
02:08:10,440 --> 02:08:12,880
Speaker 1: nine rules or anything like that. I said sure, and

2057
02:08:13,040 --> 02:08:14,680
Speaker 1: she said, you know, if you can get back to

2058
02:08:14,720 --> 02:08:16,200
Speaker 1: me in a couple of weeks, I'll be fine. I

2059
02:08:16,400 --> 02:08:18,480
Speaker 1: had the draft back to her in a little over

2060
02:08:18,520 --> 02:08:23,840
Speaker 1: an hour. Because I mean I'd lived, right, I'd lived

2061
02:08:23,840 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 1: all this stuff. But you know, my dad used to

2062
02:08:25,480 --> 02:08:29,240
Speaker 1: have a saying he'd say, um, he said, that's laughable

2063
02:08:29,320 --> 02:08:33,200
Speaker 1: but not funny and um. And so I remember I

2064
02:08:33,280 --> 02:08:36,440
Speaker 1: got a question at yeah yeah, yeah, I love that.

2065
02:08:36,880 --> 02:08:42,000
Speaker 1: Um he yeah. So it's at a film festival and

2066
02:08:42,160 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 1: someone and you could hear this, you know, you could

2067
02:08:44,640 --> 02:08:46,120
Speaker 1: hear the laughter come up, and then you hear you

2068
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:50,480
Speaker 1: go down right, and you could almost hear the uncertainty

2069
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:53,720
Speaker 1: and laughter, and somebody just asked, they said, you know, yeah,

2070
02:08:53,840 --> 02:08:56,160
Speaker 1: this was funny, but then I had I laughed, but

2071
02:08:56,320 --> 02:09:00,120
Speaker 1: then I wasn't sure whether I should be laughing. And

2072
02:09:00,440 --> 02:09:02,840
Speaker 1: you know, for satire, I think, which is what this is.

2073
02:09:03,040 --> 02:09:06,640
Speaker 1: The The importance is that you know you laugh, then

2074
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:09,240
Speaker 1: you think about why you laugh. Then you got to

2075
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:11,840
Speaker 1: think about why you think about why you laugh. So

2076
02:09:12,000 --> 02:09:14,800
Speaker 1: on those levels, you know, to get people to some

2077
02:09:14,920 --> 02:09:17,760
Speaker 1: point of sort of arcing head because then again, what

2078
02:09:17,880 --> 02:09:20,360
Speaker 1: you're doing is you're arking head to heart, you know,

2079
02:09:20,400 --> 02:09:22,240
Speaker 1: because you're feeling some kind of way about what you

2080
02:09:22,320 --> 02:09:25,680
Speaker 1: see here, and maybe something catches in your throat and

2081
02:09:26,040 --> 02:09:27,920
Speaker 1: maybe it's funny, but then you're like, wait, but that's

2082
02:09:27,960 --> 02:09:30,600
Speaker 1: not funny because then maybe in your mind with the

2083
02:09:30,640 --> 02:09:34,560
Speaker 1: whole thing about bearing a hoodie, that was I was

2084
02:09:34,560 --> 02:09:35,680
Speaker 1: gonna have you hit a couple. That was one of

2085
02:09:35,720 --> 02:09:37,240
Speaker 1: the ones I remembers if you got a hood on,

2086
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:40,200
Speaker 1: you you got a hoodie on. But then that was

2087
02:09:40,720 --> 02:09:42,880
Speaker 1: don't pull the hood That was that was connected to

2088
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:47,240
Speaker 1: Trayvon Mark, right, And so for people because some people

2089
02:09:47,280 --> 02:09:50,600
Speaker 1: aren't gonna they're not watching that, and they might say, well,

2090
02:09:50,600 --> 02:09:53,680
Speaker 1: why would you say that? Well, and then you know,

2091
02:09:53,760 --> 02:09:55,440
Speaker 1: I had somebody tell me and I had seen it,

2092
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:57,280
Speaker 1: and I don't know whether it happens here or not,

2093
02:09:57,800 --> 02:09:59,480
Speaker 1: but you know, you go to certain stores and it

2094
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:01,120
Speaker 1: will tell you you cannot come in the store with

2095
02:10:01,160 --> 02:10:07,360
Speaker 1: a hoodie on. Oh yeah, you know, um, no hoodies allowed.

2096
02:10:07,600 --> 02:10:11,520
Speaker 1: I've I've seen that. So in thinking about that, or

2097
02:10:11,920 --> 02:10:15,680
Speaker 1: saying um or, or thinking about being confused as the

2098
02:10:15,760 --> 02:10:18,600
Speaker 1: other black birder, you know, to be called to be

2099
02:10:18,760 --> 02:10:22,840
Speaker 1: called somebody else because um, maybe it's only two of

2100
02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:25,880
Speaker 1: you there, and people haven't taken enough time to notice

2101
02:10:25,920 --> 02:10:29,320
Speaker 1: that you actually are, in fact different that one person's

2102
02:10:29,360 --> 02:10:31,720
Speaker 1: five ten, the other person six to that one person

2103
02:10:31,840 --> 02:10:35,320
Speaker 1: weighs a lot and the other person ways not so much.

2104
02:10:36,320 --> 02:10:39,680
Speaker 1: You know, notice, because you're noticing all of these variations

2105
02:10:39,720 --> 02:10:42,320
Speaker 1: and birds, you can do it. You can do it,

2106
02:10:42,520 --> 02:10:47,040
Speaker 1: I promise. So thinking about those things wasn't hard, man.

2107
02:10:47,120 --> 02:10:49,760
Speaker 1: I was feeling all of them. Um, I had lived

2108
02:10:49,840 --> 02:10:53,440
Speaker 1: most of them. And so when I was asked about

2109
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:56,520
Speaker 1: doing it, you know, that just flew out of my hands.

2110
02:10:56,560 --> 02:11:00,840
Speaker 1: And then this very courageous um conservation organization out of

2111
02:11:00,880 --> 02:11:05,040
Speaker 1: Seattle bird Note. Those people went to the next level

2112
02:11:06,000 --> 02:11:09,200
Speaker 1: and and and and bird Note is great in promoting

2113
02:11:09,360 --> 02:11:14,600
Speaker 1: the science of um of in promoting ornithology, the science

2114
02:11:14,640 --> 02:11:17,960
Speaker 1: of bird conservation and all of that, but they're also

2115
02:11:18,080 --> 02:11:21,440
Speaker 1: great at arcing, and so they were brave enough and

2116
02:11:21,480 --> 02:11:23,640
Speaker 1: they said, you know, would you consider doing a film?

2117
02:11:25,280 --> 02:11:28,160
Speaker 1: And UM And the day that the weekend that we

2118
02:11:28,240 --> 02:11:30,200
Speaker 1: were supposed to do the film, I was traveling up

2119
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:35,640
Speaker 1: in the mid Atlantic and the producer actually had the

2120
02:11:35,800 --> 02:11:40,600
Speaker 1: date wrong originally, so we started a day late. But

2121
02:11:40,800 --> 02:11:46,560
Speaker 1: most of that stuff, those nine rules one take because well,

2122
02:11:46,920 --> 02:11:48,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the call for people who want to

2123
02:11:48,640 --> 02:11:52,960
Speaker 1: find it on YouTube. UM nine rules for the blackbird watcher. Here,

2124
02:11:53,040 --> 02:11:56,080
Speaker 1: let's just let's listen to one. You know, they're essential

2125
02:11:56,120 --> 02:11:59,400
Speaker 1: tools for birding. They're your binoculars, your spotting scope, your

2126
02:11:59,440 --> 02:12:02,879
Speaker 1: field guy. And if you're black, you're gonna need probably

2127
02:12:02,920 --> 02:12:05,520
Speaker 1: two or three forms of I D. When I meet

2128
02:12:05,560 --> 02:12:10,320
Speaker 1: another black birder, it's like encountering an ivorybuild woodpecker, an

2129
02:12:10,400 --> 02:12:16,640
Speaker 1: endangered species extinction looms? Did you do the list? Was

2130
02:12:16,720 --> 02:12:20,400
Speaker 1: it before or after the very high profile case where

2131
02:12:20,400 --> 02:12:24,720
Speaker 1: the gentleman in the Central Park I believe it was

2132
02:12:26,360 --> 02:12:29,880
Speaker 1: got he had like a woman was in the had

2133
02:12:29,880 --> 02:12:32,320
Speaker 1: a dog in a leash area, off the leash, and

2134
02:12:32,400 --> 02:12:34,240
Speaker 1: he asked her to put a leash on the dog,

2135
02:12:34,440 --> 02:12:36,040
Speaker 1: or go to this part of the park where you

2136
02:12:36,040 --> 02:12:38,160
Speaker 1: could have your dog unleashed. That she called the cops.

2137
02:12:38,280 --> 02:12:40,440
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say it was a dog leash issue.

2138
02:12:40,480 --> 02:12:43,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't a birding issue. And he had he had

2139
02:12:43,200 --> 02:12:46,520
Speaker 1: his binoculars, his birding. Yeah, yeah, and he recorded the

2140
02:12:46,560 --> 02:12:49,480
Speaker 1: whole thing. And then yeah, and then her I think

2141
02:12:49,480 --> 02:12:51,720
Speaker 1: her life kind of came apart after that. Yeah, she

2142
02:12:51,800 --> 02:12:56,480
Speaker 1: got it back and her dog, so she's all right, yeah, um,

2143
02:12:57,280 --> 02:13:01,400
Speaker 1: you know that was that was some of that nine

2144
02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:05,320
Speaker 1: rules sort of in effect, you know, and how you

2145
02:13:06,080 --> 02:13:09,640
Speaker 1: approach people. You you know, the skin you're in in

2146
02:13:09,720 --> 02:13:14,200
Speaker 1: this country matters, and so where you are matters. And

2147
02:13:14,440 --> 02:13:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a Southerner and um and and and

2148
02:13:17,800 --> 02:13:21,240
Speaker 1: we've got a bitter history in the South of course.

2149
02:13:22,200 --> 02:13:27,240
Speaker 1: But then you know, um, anything can jump off anywhere.

2150
02:13:28,280 --> 02:13:32,400
Speaker 1: And so when that happened to Christian, I was actually, um,

2151
02:13:32,880 --> 02:13:35,160
Speaker 1: I put a little up at my little mountain place

2152
02:13:35,280 --> 02:13:40,600
Speaker 1: and and I remember coming back into cell reception and

2153
02:13:40,720 --> 02:13:43,040
Speaker 1: my phone was blowing up. You know, if people wanting

2154
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:45,680
Speaker 1: to know about you know, birding, wild black and what's

2155
02:13:45,760 --> 02:13:48,360
Speaker 1: this about? And this and that and and so nine

2156
02:13:48,480 --> 02:13:51,840
Speaker 1: rules was sort of revived at that point because people

2157
02:13:51,840 --> 02:13:54,920
Speaker 1: are like, so, what is it like to live this way? Well,

2158
02:13:55,120 --> 02:13:58,800
Speaker 1: but so so that's so you've already done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2159
02:13:59,120 --> 02:14:01,880
Speaker 1: and that's yeah, that's really funny that that that was.

2160
02:14:03,960 --> 02:14:06,320
Speaker 1: But but it was, honestly and that that was my

2161
02:14:06,400 --> 02:14:09,040
Speaker 1: whole thing. I'm like, wait, this has been out since

2162
02:14:09,080 --> 02:14:12,400
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, but all of a sudden, here it

2163
02:14:12,600 --> 02:14:16,680
Speaker 1: is again. So it was one of those things you know,

2164
02:14:16,760 --> 02:14:19,520
Speaker 1: I tell you know, you tell folks well, and folks

2165
02:14:19,600 --> 02:14:21,680
Speaker 1: would say, well, it can't be that series. Come on,

2166
02:14:21,760 --> 02:14:24,760
Speaker 1: you're just birding. You're not gonna well some people are

2167
02:14:24,840 --> 02:14:29,440
Speaker 1: just jogging and get shot. Right. So and in thinking

2168
02:14:29,720 --> 02:14:35,280
Speaker 1: about what, um, how those things intersect that again, Steve,

2169
02:14:35,400 --> 02:14:37,880
Speaker 1: is where I come to this point of not leaving

2170
02:14:37,960 --> 02:14:41,600
Speaker 1: the science, but really wanting to try to make a

2171
02:14:41,720 --> 02:14:45,600
Speaker 1: difference in how we go about doing what we do, um,

2172
02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:49,600
Speaker 1: whether it's as a hobby of birding or whether it's conservation,

2173
02:14:50,120 --> 02:14:54,160
Speaker 1: so that people become aware that it. Unfortunately, it does

2174
02:14:54,400 --> 02:14:58,640
Speaker 1: make a difference who you are racially in this country.

2175
02:14:58,720 --> 02:15:01,360
Speaker 1: So you know, my first search project I had to

2176
02:15:01,440 --> 02:15:04,640
Speaker 1: give up because well I didn't have to give it up.

2177
02:15:05,040 --> 02:15:07,360
Speaker 1: But then I did have to give it up. And

2178
02:15:07,480 --> 02:15:10,080
Speaker 1: I say it that way because people have said, well,

2179
02:15:10,120 --> 02:15:13,360
Speaker 1: if you're a real scientist, you'll go into you know,

2180
02:15:14,000 --> 02:15:16,720
Speaker 1: this valley of the shadow of Death where these white

2181
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:19,520
Speaker 1: supremacists are deciding they're going to make it a homeland.

2182
02:15:20,920 --> 02:15:23,480
Speaker 1: So I had to make the decision, well, am I

2183
02:15:23,560 --> 02:15:26,680
Speaker 1: gonna press that or am I going to leave that

2184
02:15:26,840 --> 02:15:29,720
Speaker 1: research project behind? Because I care about my life more

2185
02:15:29,800 --> 02:15:33,280
Speaker 1: than I do gathering data in this place. So I

2186
02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:35,960
Speaker 1: made the decision to move my research project really to

2187
02:15:36,040 --> 02:15:38,040
Speaker 1: take up a whole new research project in a place

2188
02:15:38,080 --> 02:15:41,120
Speaker 1: where I felt safer and that kind of stuff happens.

2189
02:15:41,840 --> 02:15:46,760
Speaker 1: So in bringing that to light, you know, it's sure

2190
02:15:46,880 --> 02:15:50,160
Speaker 1: they're science, their sociology that can be done, their behavioral

2191
02:15:50,240 --> 02:15:52,320
Speaker 1: science that can be done, assessments that can be done

2192
02:15:52,360 --> 02:15:55,680
Speaker 1: on that. But to have people understand that, I got

2193
02:15:55,840 --> 02:15:59,760
Speaker 1: to think about that, right, um, I think is part

2194
02:15:59,840 --> 02:16:02,320
Speaker 1: of I see it as part of my mission to

2195
02:16:02,520 --> 02:16:06,800
Speaker 1: move the science that I do in a direction that

2196
02:16:06,960 --> 02:16:11,520
Speaker 1: has people feel about it and think about it. Do you, uh,

2197
02:16:14,680 --> 02:16:17,880
Speaker 1: do you find yourself telling people that something to the

2198
02:16:17,960 --> 02:16:23,280
Speaker 1: equivalent of like you should you're not interested in nature,

2199
02:16:23,320 --> 02:16:25,720
Speaker 1: You're not interested in birds. You're not a burder, but

2200
02:16:25,880 --> 02:16:29,800
Speaker 1: you should be one. Oh no, oh god, no, I know,

2201
02:16:30,560 --> 02:16:33,920
Speaker 1: you know it. Maybe it's boulders, maybe it's butterflies, maybe

2202
02:16:33,920 --> 02:16:36,480
Speaker 1: it's blue crabs. I don't know. But if it's something

2203
02:16:36,520 --> 02:16:39,280
Speaker 1: that gets you connected to nature, well, look, first of all,

2204
02:16:39,440 --> 02:16:43,039
Speaker 1: I try to get people understand where their food comes from. Right, Um,

2205
02:16:43,280 --> 02:16:45,920
Speaker 1: that's that's the first science you ought to be concerned about.

2206
02:16:46,840 --> 02:16:50,360
Speaker 1: And um. I don't try to force, ever force people

2207
02:16:51,040 --> 02:16:55,560
Speaker 1: into loving what I love, but to to have some

2208
02:16:55,720 --> 02:16:59,920
Speaker 1: appreciation for a connection to nature I think is important connection.

2209
02:17:00,080 --> 02:17:02,840
Speaker 1: And when I say nature is connection to air, connection

2210
02:17:02,879 --> 02:17:06,840
Speaker 1: to soil, connection to water. So if they understand that

2211
02:17:07,040 --> 02:17:09,840
Speaker 1: there's this connection that their water just doesn't magically come

2212
02:17:09,879 --> 02:17:13,320
Speaker 1: out of someplace that makes it clean, then then we're

2213
02:17:13,360 --> 02:17:16,600
Speaker 1: gonna have an issue. So to get them to that point,

2214
02:17:16,640 --> 02:17:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, I listened to a report, um, a few

2215
02:17:20,520 --> 02:17:26,120
Speaker 1: weeks back, and it was some incredibly disturbing percentage of

2216
02:17:26,320 --> 02:17:32,879
Speaker 1: children who think that bacon comes from plants. Yeah, right, um,

2217
02:17:33,280 --> 02:17:36,480
Speaker 1: and and and to and to me, that's that's disturbing.

2218
02:17:36,720 --> 02:17:38,960
Speaker 1: Or to talk to you know, and to talk to

2219
02:17:39,400 --> 02:17:45,760
Speaker 1: really intelligent students, really intelligent high school students I was had.

2220
02:17:46,000 --> 02:17:48,440
Speaker 1: They were in a camp. I was doing science camp

2221
02:17:48,640 --> 02:17:51,200
Speaker 1: and I was teaching an ecology course. And when I

2222
02:17:51,280 --> 02:17:54,119
Speaker 1: teach my ecology courses, you come into Marvin Gays ecology.

2223
02:17:54,640 --> 02:17:58,879
Speaker 1: Of course, they didn't know Marvin was young, but um,

2224
02:17:59,560 --> 02:18:01,640
Speaker 1: you know there one of the one of the students

2225
02:18:01,720 --> 02:18:03,840
Speaker 1: was in there was eating a candy bar and then

2226
02:18:03,920 --> 02:18:05,640
Speaker 1: they're not supposed to eat there, but I really didn't care,

2227
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:07,240
Speaker 1: but it was an opportunity. He was eating the candy

2228
02:18:07,280 --> 02:18:09,440
Speaker 1: bar and he was kind of smacking it. So so

2229
02:18:09,560 --> 02:18:12,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, you want to eat this candy bar,

2230
02:18:13,080 --> 02:18:15,640
Speaker 1: I want you to tell me what where the ingredients

2231
02:18:15,760 --> 02:18:18,920
Speaker 1: came from in that candy bar. The main ingredients came

2232
02:18:18,959 --> 02:18:21,840
Speaker 1: from in the candy bar, and I will buy everybody

2233
02:18:21,920 --> 02:18:25,680
Speaker 1: in this class their choice of candy tomorrow. And he

2234
02:18:25,760 --> 02:18:28,400
Speaker 1: sort of rocks backs, really arrogant, and he's eating I

2235
02:18:28,440 --> 02:18:31,920
Speaker 1: don't know, like a pay day or something. I said,

2236
02:18:31,959 --> 02:18:34,520
Speaker 1: so where the peanuts come from? Oh? And he just man,

2237
02:18:34,600 --> 02:18:38,320
Speaker 1: he leans way back and he's like, Okay, everybody, get

2238
02:18:38,360 --> 02:18:41,560
Speaker 1: your list together because y'all all y'all getting candy bars tomorrow.

2239
02:18:42,320 --> 02:18:44,840
Speaker 1: And he tells me, of course that these peanuts came

2240
02:18:44,879 --> 02:18:50,039
Speaker 1: off a peanut tree. I'm like, really a peanut tree.

2241
02:18:51,640 --> 02:18:54,160
Speaker 1: So he had no idea that these were looking. I

2242
02:18:54,200 --> 02:18:58,200
Speaker 1: didn't expect him that there was but that these things

2243
02:18:58,280 --> 02:19:00,560
Speaker 1: came out of the ground, or that people think that

2244
02:19:00,680 --> 02:19:08,400
Speaker 1: potatoes come off of potato trees. That's the thing growing

2245
02:19:08,480 --> 02:19:12,080
Speaker 1: up in New York City. Pay but but but then,

2246
02:19:12,400 --> 02:19:16,240
Speaker 1: but you're disconnected from it, right and you know, marketing

2247
02:19:16,320 --> 02:19:18,440
Speaker 1: is going to show you a laze coming out of

2248
02:19:18,480 --> 02:19:23,640
Speaker 1: the ground. They just they just they just care that

2249
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:27,960
Speaker 1: you eat the chip. So um. But but then that

2250
02:19:28,160 --> 02:19:30,960
Speaker 1: people don't know again where there. It's one of the

2251
02:19:31,080 --> 02:19:33,200
Speaker 1: things that I try to do when people ask why

2252
02:19:33,320 --> 02:19:37,600
Speaker 1: I hunt, Um, you know, that's a whole foods market

2253
02:19:38,879 --> 02:19:41,080
Speaker 1: and and so to to go to that level and

2254
02:19:41,160 --> 02:19:43,360
Speaker 1: think about you know, you don't have to hunt, but

2255
02:19:43,480 --> 02:19:45,720
Speaker 1: you need to know that your meat blinked before it

2256
02:19:45,800 --> 02:19:48,640
Speaker 1: became a burger. And if you have and if you

2257
02:19:48,760 --> 02:19:52,320
Speaker 1: have that idea, if you know that, then it does

2258
02:19:52,440 --> 02:19:56,080
Speaker 1: give you a different appreciation for life. Um. One of

2259
02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:58,879
Speaker 1: the things that it's always funny to me is how

2260
02:20:00,200 --> 02:20:03,080
Speaker 1: you know you get challenged. Um. Sometimes one of the

2261
02:20:03,160 --> 02:20:06,440
Speaker 1: times that I got booted to presentation was that there

2262
02:20:06,520 --> 02:20:08,200
Speaker 1: was I had a picture of me with this, with

2263
02:20:08,320 --> 02:20:10,880
Speaker 1: this little buck that I had killed, and I had

2264
02:20:11,160 --> 02:20:13,200
Speaker 1: written a poem about it. It's called Elegy for a

2265
02:20:13,280 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 1: Gut Pile and well and and it's and it's about

2266
02:20:19,120 --> 02:20:23,800
Speaker 1: being elbow deep in an animal right and license to

2267
02:20:23,840 --> 02:20:30,560
Speaker 1: ever t shirt. Hell, we can talk, we can talk, um,

2268
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:35,720
Speaker 1: But that that whole idea. This was happening after Michael

2269
02:20:35,760 --> 02:20:41,360
Speaker 1: Ferguson's death. And so here I am in this, in

2270
02:20:41,440 --> 02:20:45,840
Speaker 1: this gut pile, um feel dressing this deer, and I

2271
02:20:46,400 --> 02:20:51,480
Speaker 1: just I was overcome with still. First of all, this

2272
02:20:51,640 --> 02:20:54,040
Speaker 1: was a weird thing. When I after I had shot

2273
02:20:54,160 --> 02:20:57,640
Speaker 1: this this animal, I went down to it um on

2274
02:20:57,760 --> 02:21:02,480
Speaker 1: this side slope, and I had never seen this muscle

2275
02:21:02,600 --> 02:21:07,480
Speaker 1: quiver just just under. But it's like every fiber of

2276
02:21:07,560 --> 02:21:12,680
Speaker 1: this deer's body was going away, and I you know,

2277
02:21:12,760 --> 02:21:15,000
Speaker 1: and you see movement, but I had never seen it

2278
02:21:15,160 --> 02:21:19,560
Speaker 1: this way. And I sat with this animal and then

2279
02:21:19,920 --> 02:21:23,920
Speaker 1: and field dressing it. Um. I was thinking about the

2280
02:21:23,959 --> 02:21:27,760
Speaker 1: appreciation for life. And so I tell folks when the

2281
02:21:27,840 --> 02:21:31,720
Speaker 1: day comes that there's not some minute of indecision that

2282
02:21:31,840 --> 02:21:35,720
Speaker 1: I have about pulling the trigger or loosen the boat,

2283
02:21:36,400 --> 02:21:40,360
Speaker 1: then loosen the arrow. Then it's time for me to stop.

2284
02:21:41,160 --> 02:21:43,760
Speaker 1: You know, it might be and it it might not

2285
02:21:44,200 --> 02:21:47,440
Speaker 1: seem like I'm taking, but I'm taking a beat. And

2286
02:21:47,800 --> 02:21:50,440
Speaker 1: I don't think that we are. We are taught to

2287
02:21:51,000 --> 02:21:53,800
Speaker 1: take those beats. It's sort of been marketed out of

2288
02:21:53,959 --> 02:21:57,320
Speaker 1: us because people don't want to understand that their meat blinks,

2289
02:21:57,360 --> 02:22:00,360
Speaker 1: except for fish, and then they have no problem, you know,

2290
02:22:00,840 --> 02:22:03,200
Speaker 1: doing whatever they want to do to fish because they

2291
02:22:03,240 --> 02:22:08,640
Speaker 1: don't blink. So it's a disconnect from life that I think. Um,

2292
02:22:09,240 --> 02:22:11,680
Speaker 1: you know, I try to get people to whether it's

2293
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:15,120
Speaker 1: through birds or butterflies or whatever else that it is,

2294
02:22:15,760 --> 02:22:21,680
Speaker 1: but nah, no you must for anything. But it's kind

2295
02:22:21,720 --> 02:22:24,440
Speaker 1: of like, well you better if you don't pay attention

2296
02:22:24,480 --> 02:22:27,680
Speaker 1: to what's going on, then this is, this is, this

2297
02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:31,400
Speaker 1: is what happens. Years ago, we had a guest down

2298
02:22:31,480 --> 02:22:35,360
Speaker 1: a I say, it's a novelist named Tom mcgwain and

2299
02:22:35,480 --> 02:22:39,400
Speaker 1: he's been a lifeline hunter and he said something about

2300
02:22:39,640 --> 02:22:42,720
Speaker 1: hunting or he said, um, you're trying to kill something

2301
02:22:42,760 --> 02:22:46,200
Speaker 1: that's trying to stay alive. He said, are you going

2302
02:22:46,240 --> 02:22:52,480
Speaker 1: to ignore that? Think? And you know and and all, honestly,

2303
02:22:52,600 --> 02:22:55,960
Speaker 1: oftentimes I do you, you know what I mean, like

2304
02:22:56,280 --> 02:22:58,760
Speaker 1: you lose sight and then then something really reminds you

2305
02:22:58,879 --> 02:23:00,920
Speaker 1: of it. We had like a just there at night,

2306
02:23:01,000 --> 02:23:04,720
Speaker 1: like a very vistible reminder that it's like that the

2307
02:23:04,720 --> 02:23:07,720
Speaker 1: thing doesn't want this to happen. Yeah, yeah, I mean

2308
02:23:07,840 --> 02:23:12,560
Speaker 1: that's the to but to recognize that, um, you know,

2309
02:23:13,760 --> 02:23:17,160
Speaker 1: I don't think maybe it's necessarily apparent, you know, if

2310
02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:21,280
Speaker 1: if if you're just playing life with your thumbs, um,

2311
02:23:22,600 --> 02:23:24,840
Speaker 1: but but being out there in it or at the

2312
02:23:24,959 --> 02:23:26,640
Speaker 1: very least, And for those of us who grew up

2313
02:23:26,640 --> 02:23:28,640
Speaker 1: on a farm, you know, and you and you make

2314
02:23:28,680 --> 02:23:32,600
Speaker 1: the mistake of name in that calf. You know, so

2315
02:23:33,000 --> 02:23:35,720
Speaker 1: what happens when it's sizzling on the plate, you're not

2316
02:23:35,879 --> 02:23:38,360
Speaker 1: calling that. My friend Doug during he grew up near

2317
02:23:38,400 --> 02:23:40,880
Speaker 1: another dairy family, and he said they solved that, but

2318
02:23:40,920 --> 02:23:45,520
Speaker 1: because they were all named dinner there. I mean, you

2319
02:23:45,879 --> 02:23:49,200
Speaker 1: got you gotta think about that stuff. You gotta. And

2320
02:23:49,400 --> 02:23:53,320
Speaker 1: I don't think we do that enough. You know. Um,

2321
02:23:54,320 --> 02:23:58,760
Speaker 1: you know, drinking crab flavored whiskey, uh makes me think

2322
02:23:58,800 --> 02:24:01,280
Speaker 1: of the briny deep and in a great way. You know,

2323
02:24:01,360 --> 02:24:03,840
Speaker 1: that's probably what it tastes like to drown. I would

2324
02:24:03,879 --> 02:24:19,800
Speaker 1: suppose the realment. No, I love the castor really, but

2325
02:24:21,120 --> 02:24:24,520
Speaker 1: I just I just think for me, I mean, birds

2326
02:24:24,560 --> 02:24:29,240
Speaker 1: are sort of at that place of being able to show, um,

2327
02:24:29,360 --> 02:24:32,160
Speaker 1: the epitome of life. So I mean flight and the

2328
02:24:32,360 --> 02:24:35,640
Speaker 1: song and just their activity. And they're everywhere, even if

2329
02:24:35,640 --> 02:24:39,360
Speaker 1: it's pigeons. Even if it's pigeons. Um, if you take

2330
02:24:39,400 --> 02:24:42,480
Speaker 1: a while to watch pigeons, I mean, you can't help

2331
02:24:42,560 --> 02:24:46,360
Speaker 1: but be impressed. You're they're they're common. But here birds

2332
02:24:46,440 --> 02:24:48,560
Speaker 1: that have been symbols of piece, they've been symbols of

2333
02:24:49,360 --> 02:24:52,240
Speaker 1: of of of life itself, but people just ignore them.

2334
02:24:53,600 --> 02:24:57,440
Speaker 1: So a crazy way of flying, their pattern of flights

2335
02:24:57,520 --> 02:25:00,720
Speaker 1: just bizarre exactly. But that you recognize that, right that

2336
02:25:00,840 --> 02:25:04,720
Speaker 1: you just don't walk by and not see that happening,

2337
02:25:05,680 --> 02:25:09,879
Speaker 1: um is to me when when people do that, then

2338
02:25:10,000 --> 02:25:13,160
Speaker 1: we're sort of at a dangerous place. You know, we're

2339
02:25:13,240 --> 02:25:17,080
Speaker 1: a dangerous place in a disregard for for life. So

2340
02:25:18,200 --> 02:25:23,880
Speaker 1: you know it's birds are I mean, birds are it

2341
02:25:24,280 --> 02:25:27,520
Speaker 1: for me in that way, but um, you know, being

2342
02:25:27,600 --> 02:25:31,560
Speaker 1: able to exercise that option of watching them and adoring

2343
02:25:31,640 --> 02:25:35,880
Speaker 1: them and you know, making what's in the who's uh,

2344
02:25:37,000 --> 02:25:40,000
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of a dream. Come true for me.

2345
02:25:41,240 --> 02:25:46,520
Speaker 1: So here I am well, thanks for being here. I

2346
02:25:46,879 --> 02:25:48,920
Speaker 1: appreciated it. Yet it took a while for us to

2347
02:25:48,959 --> 02:25:51,600
Speaker 1: get together. But I admire the work. I really do.

2348
02:25:52,680 --> 02:25:55,720
Speaker 1: UM have for half for a while because I think

2349
02:25:55,800 --> 02:26:00,560
Speaker 1: it's important. Two. Um, your your arking head and heart.

2350
02:26:00,640 --> 02:26:02,680
Speaker 1: There's a lot of information that you're putting out in

2351
02:26:02,920 --> 02:26:06,640
Speaker 1: research and words and moving words in the direction for

2352
02:26:06,800 --> 02:26:10,800
Speaker 1: people to laugh at it, to think about it and

2353
02:26:10,920 --> 02:26:14,680
Speaker 1: then hopefully do something about it. So I appreciate it.

2354
02:26:15,280 --> 02:26:18,480
Speaker 1: Thanks love for coming on. Uh, hit hit him with,

2355
02:26:18,560 --> 02:26:20,560
Speaker 1: hit him with your hit him with your lineup of

2356
02:26:21,080 --> 02:26:24,160
Speaker 1: books and the best way to find you uh the

2357
02:26:24,640 --> 02:26:27,840
Speaker 1: Home Place Memoirs of a Colored Man's Love Affair with Nature.

2358
02:26:28,200 --> 02:26:31,760
Speaker 1: Um if you will find your indie booksellers somewhere. UM

2359
02:26:32,000 --> 02:26:34,520
Speaker 1: Sparrow n vy Field Guide to Birds and Lesser Beasts.

2360
02:26:34,560 --> 02:26:37,400
Speaker 1: That's a hub City book that you can buy from

2361
02:26:37,480 --> 02:26:42,360
Speaker 1: hub City Books. Forthcoming books from Ferrar or book from

2362
02:26:42,400 --> 02:26:47,240
Speaker 1: Ferrar Strauss and Guru is Range Maps, Birds, Blackness and

2363
02:26:47,360 --> 02:26:51,680
Speaker 1: loving Nature between the two from Enchanted Lion will come

2364
02:26:52,200 --> 02:26:55,840
Speaker 1: Home Place hughes where you can find colors like Coyle

2365
02:26:55,920 --> 02:26:58,680
Speaker 1: shit brown in my box of Creole of sixty four

2366
02:27:01,320 --> 02:27:06,080
Speaker 1: and the bird I became, um uh black Boys story

2367
02:27:06,280 --> 02:27:12,040
Speaker 1: of becoming a bird man. Busy dude. Yeah, and you

2368
02:27:12,120 --> 02:27:14,240
Speaker 1: got a course load at Clemson or no? Yeah, yeah,

2369
02:27:14,240 --> 02:27:16,800
Speaker 1: I got a course load. Not teaching um so much

2370
02:27:16,879 --> 02:27:20,720
Speaker 1: this semester, but got got lots of deadlines, including one

2371
02:27:22,320 --> 02:27:25,279
Speaker 1: on on Monday. So lots of essays in the works,

2372
02:27:25,440 --> 02:27:28,400
Speaker 1: lots of poems. That's my last question for you. Okay.

2373
02:27:28,640 --> 02:27:32,120
Speaker 1: We always always come down to, you know, how I

2374
02:27:32,240 --> 02:27:37,880
Speaker 1: know what's real? I found it on the Cornell Ornithological Lab.

2375
02:27:38,680 --> 02:27:43,400
Speaker 1: Is that the best birding resource out there? Yeah? I

2376
02:27:43,800 --> 02:27:46,240
Speaker 1: think so? Okay, yeah, you know it's good to hear.

2377
02:27:46,320 --> 02:27:48,119
Speaker 1: I mean that that was my dream as a kid.

2378
02:27:48,320 --> 02:27:49,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to go to Cornell. I want to be

2379
02:27:49,760 --> 02:27:54,840
Speaker 1: a Cornell ornithologist specifically. So um, I get to work

2380
02:27:54,920 --> 02:27:57,280
Speaker 1: a good bit with Cornell and published stuff and um

2381
02:27:57,440 --> 02:27:59,920
Speaker 1: in Living Bird. But yeah, you can't do better than that.

2382
02:28:00,240 --> 02:28:02,560
Speaker 1: I feel that you dig them because they do a

2383
02:28:02,640 --> 02:28:05,880
Speaker 1: good job of putting stuff out to two Joe blows

2384
02:28:05,920 --> 02:28:08,480
Speaker 1: like us right there you go. I mean there's the

2385
02:28:08,560 --> 02:28:12,360
Speaker 1: science moving and and nobody's going to discount that science.

2386
02:28:12,920 --> 02:28:17,200
Speaker 1: But more people know the science because Cornell values that

2387
02:28:17,520 --> 02:28:19,760
Speaker 1: aspect of it of getting out there, they get to

2388
02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:23,400
Speaker 1: do great job of getting people in a position to

2389
02:28:23,480 --> 02:28:26,480
Speaker 1: find that yes, absolutely absolutely this might not be the

2390
02:28:26,560 --> 02:28:28,160
Speaker 1: right way to put it, but I feel like it's like, um,

2391
02:28:30,600 --> 02:28:32,760
Speaker 1: they have they see, they have like a very good

2392
02:28:32,840 --> 02:28:35,480
Speaker 1: balance to It's like it's not like it's it's not

2393
02:28:35,560 --> 02:28:37,840
Speaker 1: like politicized, you know what I mean. It's just it's

2394
02:28:38,040 --> 02:28:41,320
Speaker 1: very like like good information for people that want to

2395
02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:45,480
Speaker 1: start understanding birds from whatever route they're taking into it.

2396
02:28:45,520 --> 02:28:51,440
Speaker 1: It's just like helpful stuff. Man. That that Merlin app Yeah,

2397
02:28:51,520 --> 02:28:53,360
Speaker 1: that and it's and it's gonna get better, you know.

2398
02:28:53,440 --> 02:28:55,440
Speaker 1: And I and I turned people on to every you know,

2399
02:28:55,480 --> 02:28:57,640
Speaker 1: when I teach your on anthology in the spring, I

2400
02:28:57,720 --> 02:29:00,760
Speaker 1: also turn them on to UM to the du page

2401
02:29:00,800 --> 02:29:04,200
Speaker 1: and Duck cast and that. Yeah, I turned the students

2402
02:29:04,280 --> 02:29:08,440
Speaker 1: onto it because I want to cross Foster um learning.

2403
02:29:08,560 --> 02:29:11,920
Speaker 1: So you know, you're going to Cornell for for some stuff,

2404
02:29:11,959 --> 02:29:14,680
Speaker 1: you're going to the d U site for other stuff

2405
02:29:14,720 --> 02:29:19,160
Speaker 1: to understand. It's really good too, really informative exactly. So

2406
02:29:19,760 --> 02:29:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot of resources out there, but

2407
02:29:21,680 --> 02:29:24,320
Speaker 1: those are two of the best. Aw Well, you got

2408
02:29:24,440 --> 02:29:27,960
Speaker 1: a standing invitation to come back. I'll be back. You

2409
02:29:28,040 --> 02:29:29,879
Speaker 1: got you got enough stuff going on, you'll you'll get

2410
02:29:29,959 --> 02:29:32,640
Speaker 1: re uh you know, you'll get a new set of

2411
02:29:32,680 --> 02:29:36,039
Speaker 1: ideas working up pretty quick. Well we'll try. Yeah, you know, um,

2412
02:29:37,200 --> 02:29:42,200
Speaker 1: you know this Montana has been in my uh in

2413
02:29:42,360 --> 02:29:47,240
Speaker 1: my dream basket for all my life. I wanted to

2414
02:29:47,320 --> 02:29:49,640
Speaker 1: be three things growing up. I wanted to be an ornithologist.

2415
02:29:50,480 --> 02:29:53,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to be yeah, yeah, I wanted to be

2416
02:29:53,480 --> 02:29:56,280
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a fighter pilot, right, and then

2417
02:29:56,320 --> 02:29:58,760
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a Montana cowboy, and I want

2418
02:29:58,800 --> 02:30:03,760
Speaker 1: to be at. I didn't. I didn't, I didn't. Nope, Nope.

2419
02:30:04,320 --> 02:30:06,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to be at because Montana for me to

2420
02:30:06,720 --> 02:30:09,920
Speaker 1: find the West and I would look in in the

2421
02:30:10,000 --> 02:30:13,440
Speaker 1: old encyclopedias that we had and it just, um, it

2422
02:30:13,600 --> 02:30:16,000
Speaker 1: just always pulled me in. And so now that I

2423
02:30:16,080 --> 02:30:19,720
Speaker 1: have the opportunity work down at um with with ELK

2424
02:30:19,879 --> 02:30:26,120
Speaker 1: River books, um, you know it's uh yeah, it's a

2425
02:30:26,160 --> 02:30:28,920
Speaker 1: dream come true. So I appreciate you giving me the space. Thanks.

2426
02:30:29,280 --> 02:30:31,200
Speaker 1: You should come out in Turkey hunt and watch the

2427
02:30:31,280 --> 02:30:36,080
Speaker 1: other birds. Okay, I was gonna say, if you ever

2428
02:30:36,200 --> 02:30:39,680
Speaker 1: wanna go shoot some ducks, you know, I'll be staying

2429
02:30:39,720 --> 02:30:42,879
Speaker 1: at a cabin. I've been on this cabin last night

2430
02:30:43,080 --> 02:30:46,879
Speaker 1: at at the Elk River Book Festival or I'm sorry

2431
02:30:46,920 --> 02:30:52,320
Speaker 1: Elk River Writers Workshop and um and one this cabin

2432
02:30:53,840 --> 02:30:58,880
Speaker 1: and so and uh yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna

2433
02:30:58,920 --> 02:31:01,560
Speaker 1: try to make it uh in during Elk Seas and

2434
02:31:01,600 --> 02:31:03,640
Speaker 1: you guys can tell me about cow tags and stuff.

2435
02:31:03,640 --> 02:31:06,280
Speaker 1: So I need to understand that. Um, I don't know

2436
02:31:06,360 --> 02:31:11,640
Speaker 1: how accessible it is here, but unfortunately there's no last

2437
02:31:11,680 --> 02:31:17,080
Speaker 1: minute options. Yeah there may be there, yeah, but you know,

2438
02:31:17,320 --> 02:31:19,440
Speaker 1: but I also you know, this is something I mean

2439
02:31:19,480 --> 02:31:21,600
Speaker 1: there's no time limit on it, so you know I

2440
02:31:21,680 --> 02:31:24,199
Speaker 1: can put in and and get that work to definitely

2441
02:31:24,240 --> 02:31:28,520
Speaker 1: get some deer tags. Sounds like you're coming back to Montana. Yeah, yeah,

2442
02:31:28,640 --> 02:31:30,920
Speaker 1: well deer wise, I've always wanted to hunt the Milk River.

2443
02:31:31,520 --> 02:31:37,480
Speaker 1: Uh you know, so that again it's so white tailed

2444
02:31:37,680 --> 02:31:43,000
Speaker 1: or white tails, you know, for for me, that's that's

2445
02:31:43,000 --> 02:31:46,440
Speaker 1: still that's still the beast of of choice for me.

2446
02:31:46,600 --> 02:31:49,160
Speaker 1: But I have others in line that I'm wonna get at.

2447
02:31:49,879 --> 02:31:52,080
Speaker 1: Stay in touch, man, we'll do, we'll do. Thank you,

2448
02:31:52,240 --> 02:31:52,920
Speaker 1: thank you for what you do