Speaker 1: Oh, I say, well, I just heard a big bang
Speaker 1: right here behind me. I thought we shouldn't have done
Speaker 1: the life shot here. There are big explosions taking place
Speaker 1: in Kiev right now. It's like I hear rumblings right now.
Speaker 1: Oh there's another. I've got a flat jacket right here.
Speaker 1: Let me just get it, get it on. That was
Speaker 1: a year ago today as the war started in Ukraine.
Speaker 1: Russia bombing Kiev, and remember our own government was saying
Speaker 1: it was going to likely fall in ninety six hours,
Speaker 1: and we offered to get Zalinski and other leaders of
Speaker 1: the government out of there, and he famously said, I
Speaker 1: need ammunition, a not a ride. And he put out
Speaker 1: that video that night of him and other leaders in
Speaker 1: the government in the streets and keeps saying we're not
Speaker 1: going anywhere. We're staying here, which is main not only brave,
Speaker 1: but a history making moment. We're perhaps world changing moment.
Speaker 1: And so the Ukrainians held off the Russians. It's now
Speaker 1: been a year, but is time on Ukraine's side. Josh Rogan,
Speaker 1: one of our favorite columnists if you don't read them
Speaker 1: and follow them, Ushity Rates for the Washington Post, is
Speaker 1: writing on that very topic lately. Josh, how are you, sir? Great,
Speaker 1: great to be back with you. Yeah, So I read
Speaker 1: your column last night. I just thought it was so good.
Speaker 1: We got to have you on today. You're taking issue
Speaker 1: with President Biden's mantra of we're with it until the end.
Speaker 1: You know, we're going to stick this out. That whole
Speaker 1: thing in time, as long as it takes. As long
Speaker 1: as it takes in time is not on Russia's side.
Speaker 1: You disagree. So it wasn't so much that I didn't disagree,
Speaker 1: it's that Ukrainians disagree. And I went to Munich to
Speaker 1: this thing called the Munich Security Conference, and that's where
Speaker 1: a lot of Biden administration officials are celebrating their great
Speaker 1: accomplishment and winning the Ukraine War, but for one uncomfortable fact,
Speaker 1: which is that the Ukraine War is not yet one.
Speaker 1: And the Ukrainians who were there were saying, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: we really appreciate all the weapons that you've given us,
Speaker 1: but the war has changed and we need different stuff now,
Speaker 1: and there's an offensive coming. And when we hear as
Speaker 1: long as it takes to us, that means you're settling
Speaker 1: in for a long slog. But the problem for the
Speaker 1: Ukrainians is that if the war takes five more years,
Speaker 1: they're not going to have a country, and their economy
Speaker 1: is going to be in tatters and people are dying
Speaker 1: and their military is suffering every losses and they're you know,
Speaker 1: it'll be a pyic victory. So you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of sort of backslapping and handshakes and Munich about
Speaker 1: how great the West did and standing up to Russia.
Speaker 1: But it's not over yet, and in fact, it's going
Speaker 1: to get worse before it gets better. And clearly this
Speaker 1: is more than just a rhetorical difference of how you're
Speaker 1: describing something that it means. The strategy has to be
Speaker 1: very different. Right. The idea is that the Ukrainians want
Speaker 1: to speed up the war because they think if they
Speaker 1: don't win this year, and we can talk about what
Speaker 1: winning means, then it doesn't matter because they're not going
Speaker 1: to have a country to stave. And the fight administration
Speaker 1: is in my view, prioritizing unity with France and Germany
Speaker 1: over unity with the Ukrainians. And you know, of course
Speaker 1: the Europeans are hamming and hanging, that's what they do,
Speaker 1: you know, but inside the Biden administration that are a
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, hey, we got to give
Speaker 1: them the things they need right now, which are long
Speaker 1: range missiles and tanks and maybe fighter planes all then
Speaker 1: that's not really the most important thing. But in the end,
Speaker 1: we seem to always be a day late and a
Speaker 1: dollar short. And you know that means that we have
Speaker 1: a stalemate. And in that stalemate, Prutin wins because Ukrainians
Speaker 1: are suffering and he gets to keep going with his
Speaker 1: war and keep waiting us out. Is it basically his
Speaker 1: whole plan? Yeah, I agree with you. It seems so
Speaker 1: clearly true to me that that time is not on
Speaker 1: Ukraine's side, as the President stated the other day. And
Speaker 1: this idea as long as it takes, well, it better
Speaker 1: be soon or we're gonna lose. Right, Not only that,
Speaker 1: American people are not going to tolerate another forever war,
Speaker 1: nor should they. So the American people want to know
Speaker 1: how does this end? And if I'm telling you what
Speaker 1: I hear from Biden people, it's like, oh, well, maybe
Speaker 1: if we candrole them into negotiations, by the time Biden
Speaker 1: has to run for president again in earnest, the fighting
Speaker 1: will be lower and we can say that that's kind
Speaker 1: of an accomplishment. But the Ukrainians say that, first of all,
Speaker 1: that's crazy because the Russians are committing crimes against humanity.
Speaker 1: They're not negotiating. And second of all, wouldn't you rather
Speaker 1: run on a win? Would you rather run on we
Speaker 1: got it done? And Ukraine is no longer being shelves
Speaker 1: all day every day because the war is still ongoing.
Speaker 1: But you know, the Biden people are more kind of
Speaker 1: worried about the political image of winning the war than
Speaker 1: actually winning the war, and the Ukrainian that's crazy. Well,
Speaker 1: and I was struck by the number of Ukrainian officials
Speaker 1: you talked to who said the war must be won
Speaker 1: this year. That's the message. Please, mister President, say that
Speaker 1: message right, and because they know that if we say that,
Speaker 1: then we don't have to do it, and that means
Speaker 1: giving them the things that they would need to win
Speaker 1: this year. And if he's a Biden White House, you're thinking, wow,
Speaker 1: if they start to win too much, maybe Putin is
Speaker 1: going to go crazy and to expand the war to
Speaker 1: Poland or drop a nuke on them or something. And
Speaker 1: again the Ukrainians here that and they're like, no, no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, we want to win. Aren't we trying to win?
Speaker 1: You know? And that's the basic fundamental difference between Washington
Speaker 1: and Kiev. You know, the people in the White House
Speaker 1: think that, oh, eventually they're going to negotiate in a
Speaker 1: way that draws the line in the middle of Ukraine,
Speaker 1: and the Ukrainians are not going to do that, and
Speaker 1: the Russias are not going to do that. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of like a conflict inside of our foreign policy
Speaker 1: that but he doesn't really want to resolve because he
Speaker 1: doesn't want to do the thing that you would need
Speaker 1: to do, which is to give them the weapons they
Speaker 1: need to win the war. Now well, right, well you
Speaker 1: brought it up yourself. What does winning look like? So
Speaker 1: I can understand why the Ukrainians do not want to
Speaker 1: give up an inch of their territory because, well, for
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons, including the fact that if Russia
Speaker 1: is still camped in Crimea and wherever, they're just going
Speaker 1: to launch another offensive in a couple of years. But
Speaker 1: how do you think this thing ends, right, Well, at
Speaker 1: least you know, their negotiating positions should be the same. Right,
Speaker 1: the Ukrainians want to say, we're gonna take every inch
Speaker 1: of our territory including Crimea. Is the fighting is the
Speaker 1: seas are gonna gonna happen right when that happens, Maybe not,
Speaker 1: but they would at least Washington to like play along.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like right now, it's sort of like
Speaker 1: they're they're they're trying to convince the Russians that they're
Speaker 1: capable of doing that, and the only reason the Russians
Speaker 1: don't believe them is because Washington won't give them the
Speaker 1: weapons they would need to do that. So how does
Speaker 1: this end is a really important question. And you know,
Speaker 1: what the Biden people say is it's up to the Ukrainians.
Speaker 1: But then they can strain their options by withholding the
Speaker 1: things that they would need to actually have that flexibility.
Speaker 1: And that's the difference sort of between what the Biden
Speaker 1: people say and what they do. What they say is
Speaker 1: it's up to the Ukrainians to define winning. What they're
Speaker 1: doing is trying to define it down by themselves. Josh
Speaker 1: Rogan of the Washington Post on the line, and Josh,
Speaker 1: you're one of our favorite guys to talk to about
Speaker 1: China as well, and obviously they're involved now indirectly in
Speaker 1: the Ukraine thing. Any thoughts on their burgeoning relationship with Russia. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of crazy talk in Washington now about oh,
Speaker 1: the Chinese are so conflicted and you know, they don't
Speaker 1: want to be tied down with Russia and maybe we
Speaker 1: should just pull them into our orbit and all of
Speaker 1: that's nonsense because it presumes that what the Chinese Communist
Speaker 1: Party is telling us is true. It's true, and I
Speaker 1: was in Munich. I heard them say a lot of
Speaker 1: crazy things and they were mostly lies. China is not neutral.
Speaker 1: China has providing Russia support this entire time. They're going
Speaker 1: to continue to do so. And the thing that we
Speaker 1: have to do is call them out for it, and
Speaker 1: then if they do it, punish them for it. Because
Speaker 1: you know what the problem with Washington is, we don't
Speaker 1: understand that different between Chinese propaganda and Chinese policy. Chinese
Speaker 1: propaganda is, oh, wow, this Ukraine thing really hasn't tied
Speaker 1: up in knots, and maybe we'll have a peace deal
Speaker 1: and maybe we'll be the mediators. But it's all nonsense
Speaker 1: because what their actual policy is is to help Russia
Speaker 1: as much as possible without admitting as such. And we
Speaker 1: have to be clear eyed about that. I appreciate you
Speaker 1: coming on on short notice. By the way, you read
Speaker 1: that article and just thought it was really, really interesting.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, though, you're these are serious topics. You run
Speaker 1: pretty hot. Do you do you relax at the end
Speaker 1: of the day? I mean, you are you always this intense?
Speaker 1: I mean, do you have a drink to you? Ballroom dance?
Speaker 1: Do you play video games? Anything that can link lower
Speaker 1: your blood pressure? I have a three month newborn caught
Speaker 1: an it's it's our first congratulations. By the way, that
Speaker 1: is awesome, But that is not the time to get
Speaker 1: to relax. I understand that, not exactly relax, but it
Speaker 1: is a It is a time to appreciate what's really
Speaker 1: important in life, and that's family. And we're very lucky
Speaker 1: and our newborn's order is doing well, and I'm trying
Speaker 1: to be passionated my work so that we can create
Speaker 1: a better world for her to grow up in, because
Speaker 1: right now the thugs and crooks and dictators are on
Speaker 1: the march, and Ukraine is the place where we have
Speaker 1: to fight them. And I know it's tough for the
Speaker 1: American people and it cost a lot. N't ask you
Speaker 1: for sacrifice, but if you want a world for your
Speaker 1: children that resembles the world that we envisioned in our minds.
Speaker 1: A world where you can say what you want and
Speaker 1: live where you want. That's all the Ukrainians want. It's
Speaker 1: not too much to ask, and they're willing to die
Speaker 1: for it, and all we have to do is help them,
Speaker 1: and we ought to. Yeah, It's one thing about having
Speaker 1: kids is you have some stake in the game for
Speaker 1: the future, no doubt about that. And I'm saying just
Speaker 1: earlier today, or yesterday or whenever, talking about the problems
Speaker 1: of the world and how my eleven year old is
Speaker 1: going through, you know, one of your major life stages
Speaker 1: or something like that, and it was just it was
Speaker 1: fantastic to focus on that and you know, for a
Speaker 1: while and shut out the rest of the world. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, what's fascinating to me is that, you know,
Speaker 1: I think the kids are all right. I travel a
Speaker 1: lot to colleges and universities and hear a lot about welkness.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to China and Russia and the
Speaker 1: need to fight dictators, I think the next generation is
Speaker 1: going to pick up that torch and run with it. Cool,
Speaker 1: if we can just keep keep the fight going until
Speaker 1: we have we hand it off to them. Well, it
Speaker 1: certainly motivates us every day. The paycheck doesn't hurt, but
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big part of it. Josh Rogan
Speaker 1: of The Washington Post, Josh, congratulations again. Take care of
Speaker 1: your family and keep keep up with the fabulous work.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. You guys, just it's just a word.
Speaker 1: You know, he runs pretty take things, very serious, layman.
Speaker 1: To make sure you know, it's a real least point
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. Of course, when you
Speaker 1: have a three month old, that is not the time
Speaker 1: that you really get to get your ballroom dancing done
Speaker 1: or your drink on or anything like that. No, you
Speaker 1: go and bust your ass at work to relax, absolutely
Speaker 1: freaking lootly. You know what I was going to ask
Speaker 1: him about, But you're charming, personal oriented ending. There was
Speaker 1: too good to pass up, was it. McCaslin. We were
Speaker 1: talking to or Mic Lines about the fact that China,
Speaker 1: who shares a rather long border with Russia, and they
Speaker 1: have been phreenemies and enemies over the past, you know,
Speaker 1: hundred years. Really they're never really friends. Whether China isn't
Speaker 1: enjoying the hell out of watching the Russian military just
Speaker 1: get bled dry. Sure, I mean they're supporting them quote
Speaker 1: unquote supporting them, but maybe they're supporting them, so the
Speaker 1: bleeding continues on both sides. They like bleeding Russia and US.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, yeah, well yes, thank you, Joe Hodel stupid,
Speaker 1: are you? Joe? Yeah. It's a good point because our
Speaker 1: Pentagon is saying, hey, yeah, hey, yeah, we're just down
Speaker 1: there at the old ammunition depot and it's looking a
Speaker 1: little thin. What are we gonna do about this? They're
Speaker 1: firing a lot arounds and get