1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Thank you everyone for joining us 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: for another episode. This is one that I am incredibly 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: excited about because we have a guest today, I guess, 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: all the way from the US joining us to talk 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: about financial anxiety and all things money in our twenties. 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: So Hi, lindsay, Hi, I am so happy to be here. 10 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: This is this is really exciting and I'm glad we 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: worked around the time zone in day changes as well. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: that was one thing when you reached out to me. 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: I was like, this is something we're going to need 14 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: to sort out. FA's that you're in the US. I'm 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: in Australia, but you reached out to me, and I 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: just thought you had some incredible ideas and you obviously 17 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: do fantastic work. So do you want to give us 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: a bit of an overview of who you are, what 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: kind of work you do, where you're from. Yeah? Sure. 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: So I am based in Michigan in the United States, 21 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: and I'm a financial therapist. So my background is in 22 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: clinical social work. So I have that psychology training, that 23 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: sociology training that allows me to be a practicing therapist. 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: I think in Australia you use the term counselor. So 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: I was a practicing therapist for probably eight years or 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: so when I really went all in on financial therapy. 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: And financial therapy is exactly as it sounds. It's the 28 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: study of the psychological side of money, So helping people 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: with the emotional side of money. So much less how 30 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: to make a budget and much more. What is making 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: it hard to look at your numbers? What makes you 32 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable when you have to negotiate a pay raise? 33 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: Is it hard for you to talk to a partner 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: or a roommate about your finances? So thinking more about 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: that side of money. Yeah, so that's the short of it. 36 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: I suppose that's the short answer. That is an incredible explanation. 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: I will say, before you reached out to me to 38 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: come onto the show, I had no idea what financial 39 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: therapy it was. It's not a massive thing in Australia, 40 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: but it's such a valuable kind of position to have 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: in society. It's such a valuable job to be doing 42 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: because I think as you will explain more. Especially in 43 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: our twenties, as we begin to navigate our own money 44 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: for the first time, it can be really, really stressful 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: and normally it's a very I think we think about 46 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: financial advisors who tell you how to really treat your money, 47 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: where to store and how to invest, how to budget, 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: but it doesn't really account for the emotional side of things. 49 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: So with that in mind, how did you get into 50 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: this type of work? What was the kind of calling 51 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: to begin this type of work with clients? Well, I 52 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: did not seek out to become a financial therapist. So, 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: like you mentioned, financial therapy is a relatively new niche 54 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: within the world of therapy. So back when I got 55 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: my degree, my master's degree, it was twenty eleven and 56 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: I got my first social worksjob out of grad school. 57 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: I was really excited about it, working at a nonprofit 58 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: and I got my first paycheck as in my opinion, 59 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: like a grown up, and I was earning less than 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: I was as a waitress. And it Yeah, you can't 61 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: see because we're on a podcast, but JE just like 62 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: jaw just dropped. Yeah. But here's the thing that's not uncommon. 63 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: It's not uncommon to go into a helping field and 64 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: not earn, in my opinion, a living wage. But I 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: had so much guilt and anxiety. In the States, higher 66 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: education university is expensive. I had my parents who were 67 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: able to financially help me, and so I graduated without 68 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: any debt. And so here I am with relative financial privilege, 69 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: and I'm still struggling to make ends meet. And I 70 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: was so embarrassed that I had wasted my privilege or 71 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: wasted my resources. I couldn't believe that it was going 72 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: to be a struggle for me to make rent or 73 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: to get groceries, and there was so much shame around it. 74 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: And so I did what a lot of people do, 75 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: you know. I googled how to make a budget, how 76 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: to make ends meet on not a high income. I 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: checked out books from the library, and everybody at that 78 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: point in time was telling me the same thing, basically, 79 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: like it's your fault. You should really stop going out 80 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: to eat, and I just it didn't feel right to me. 81 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not like going on shopping spreeze. 82 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm literally just trying to have my basic needs met, 83 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: put gas in the car, feed myself, you know, pay 84 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: my rent. And I just felt even worse. So the 85 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: personal finance information was somewhat helpful, and then it helped 86 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: me to structure a budget and be a little bit 87 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: savvier about shopping, but it didn't really move the needle 88 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: the way that we're kind of promised that it will. 89 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: And it was a year into that job that I 90 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: negotiated for a raise and was told not only would 91 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: I not get a raise, but that I should be 92 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: grateful that I had a job, and that I could 93 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: feel in the pit of my stomach my heart just sank, 94 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: my stomach sank. I felt so stuck here. You know, 95 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: I've done everything I was supposed to. I even like 96 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: mustered up the courage to negotiate a raise and was 97 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: told no. Right then, I started looking for a new 98 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: job that day, so fast forward, I got a better 99 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: paying job. And what I noticed when I got a 100 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: better paying job was that, yes, my finances improved, but 101 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: what had happened when I was at my first job 102 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: was not only was I stressed out about money, but 103 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: as you can imagine studying what you do when talking 104 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: about the psychology of money or I'm sorry, the psychology 105 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: of your twenties, is that when we feel stressed in 106 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: certain areas of our life, it impacts other areas of 107 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: our life. So my previously well managed depression and anxiety 108 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: had flared up. I developed insomnia, and I was getting 109 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: colds and flues all the time, because you can imagine 110 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: if you're not sleeping, your systems rundown. It's just this vicious, 111 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: vicious cycle. So fast forward. I get this better paying job. 112 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm feeling better about making my ends meet, and I 113 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: noticed that my depression and anxiety actually starts to dial down. 114 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: I start to be old to sleep at night. Sudden, 115 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: my immune system isn't so terrible. And it was just 116 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: this moment emma of being like, you know, we can 117 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: tell people all day, cut the lattes, cut the avocado toast, 118 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: but we really need to be talking about the emotional 119 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: consequences of under earning. And you know, for a handful 120 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: of people, sure it might be miss or mismanagement in 121 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: some way, but I really think a big part of 122 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: it is that a lot of us aren't paid adequately 123 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: for the work that we do, and we end up 124 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: in fields helping healing professions where it's commonplace to not 125 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: earn that much. So then let's see. Then I started 126 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: studying financial social work and financial therapy, and eventually I 127 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: carved out a niche for myself and went into really 128 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: only serving clients who are struggling with the emotional side 129 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: of money. And it has been incredibly fulfilling, incredibly validating. 130 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: But no, it is never what I set out to 131 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: do or had great plan of doing when I was 132 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: in university. Yeah, well, that is actually incredible and I 133 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: think a lot of people could probably relate to that 134 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: experience you were talking about. After you get your first 135 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: big girl job, you're making money and you almost expect 136 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: to feel secure, but that just doesn't really happen. And 137 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: especially now as you know, the cost of limiting becomes 138 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: more expensive. Financially, we're seeing you know, inflation is on 139 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: the rise. And yet still, like you said, a lot 140 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: of I would say graduate jobs, the jobs that you 141 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: get straight out of UNIQ pay absolutely nothing or very little, 142 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: and especially if you're working in you know, caring roles, 143 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: if you're a nurse, if you're a counselor, if you're 144 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: an occupational therapist and entry level sych that is all 145 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: stuff that is going to create a lot of worry 146 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: within you. So in terms of the clients, that you 147 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: say the majority of them kind of younger or older 148 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: in their lives. I'll really be interested in the spectrum 149 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: of the people that you say, Yeah, great, great question. 150 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: So I'm a millennial, so I would say the bulk 151 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: of my clients are also millennials, but I do have 152 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: a handful that are older and a handful that are younger. 153 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: So I would say most of my clients are like 154 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: twenty eight to forty, but they range, you know, some 155 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: are a bit older, some are a bit younger, but 156 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: most of them are coming to me. They've had a 157 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: couple of careers, career changes rather under their belt. They're 158 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: starting to finally earn money, but there's still this fear. 159 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: There's still this anxiety that's left over from their childhood 160 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: or from the post UNI days where they weren't earning 161 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: that much. And it's a lot of helping them to 162 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: navigate where they are now versus where they were before. 163 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: So I deal with a lot of financial anxiety and 164 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: a lot of money shame in my practice. So this 165 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: kind of gets to what I really want to pick 166 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: your brain about today, which is financial anxiety first and foremost. 167 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: But then how do we as individuals in our twenties. 168 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: A lot of my audiences, obviously people in our twenties, 169 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: how do you navigate difficult conversations and also your relationships? 170 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: When you're talking about money, I think, yeah, it's a 171 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: pretty big question and we have like an hour to 172 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: answer it. But but I guess we'll start with financial anxiety. 173 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: Can you give us the laydown? What does it feel like? 174 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: What does it look like? Of course, financial anxiety is 175 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: when you feel nervous, worried, or on edge when you 176 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: are engaging with or thinking about your money, and that 177 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: can show up almost identical in your body the way 178 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: that traditional anxiety shows up. It can show up by 179 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: knots in your stomach, your palm, sweating, dry mouth, clenching 180 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: of your teeth, feeling jittery. Right can show up in 181 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: those ways. It often shows up in racing worried thoughts. 182 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: And the way that the behavior show up is that 183 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: when a person who has financial anxiety looks at their 184 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: paycheck or their retirement account or how much money is available, 185 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,359 Speaker 1: you know, somewhere in their life they feel those symptoms 186 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: of anxiety. And when we feel symptoms of anxiety, we 187 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: do everything in our power to not feel them. Right, 188 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: Nobody likes that like churning in your stomach and the 189 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: jitteriness and the craziness that comes along with anxiety. So 190 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,599 Speaker 1: there are two really quick ways to shut down this discomfort. 191 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: One is through perfectionism and one is through procrastination. So 192 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: perfectionism with financial anxiety looks like saying I'm going to 193 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: research every single bank that I can find and put 194 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: my money in the best one. Or I'm going to 195 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: look at every single brunch menu in Melbourne and choose 196 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: the one that has the cheapest option. Right. So these 197 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: kinds of like overresearching, trying to do it the right 198 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: way in order to tame their financial anxiety. Then, on 199 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: the other hand, you have procrastination. If I don't want 200 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: to feel that financial anxiety, I just won't deal with 201 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: my money. I won't look at my bank account, I 202 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: won't think about retirement, I won't even worry about telling 203 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: my boss that they're paycheck late. Like, I just don't 204 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: even have the capacity to look at it because it 205 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: brings up so much anxiety. And something interesting about financial 206 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: anxiety is that it's a myth that if you have 207 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: more money or earn more money, you'll stop experiencing financial anxiety. 208 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: So many of us experience it even as we continue 209 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: to earn more, even as we continue to save more, 210 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: because it's so emotional and it's less tied to logic. 211 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: M that is incredibly interesting, like that, that procrastination and 212 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: that perfectionism, And I think it would be it's very 213 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: interesting in one way in particular, is that both of 214 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: those things, wheth of those ways of dealing with money 215 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: are quite socially accepted. I would say, yeah, yeah, absolutely, 216 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: you know, I think I sometimes lead towards procrastination and 217 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: now I'm thinking like, oh, it's just because I'm anxious 218 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: about my income or am I just lady? And but 219 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: also that perfectionism, you know, being really conscious about what's 220 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: coming in and what's going out is something that people 221 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: say as a sign of maturity and as a sign 222 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: of being wise and of good practice. So I have 223 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: a kind of maybe a more nuanced question for you, 224 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: which is where do those two behave maybeas come from. 225 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: Are there different people who might be leaning towards one 226 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: over the other or what are some of the determinants 227 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: of financial anxiety to begin with? Yeah, good questions, So 228 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: they can be the same person in that you could 229 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: be procrastinating by way of perfectionism, right, You could be 230 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: putting off doing something related to your money because you 231 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: want to do it just right, and if you can't 232 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: do it just right, you don't do it at all. 233 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: But it again goes back to this idea of we're 234 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: not taught how to deal with anxiety, but we're certainly 235 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: not taught how to deal with financers. So when you 236 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: combine those two are there's just so few resources for us. 237 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: You know, I'm so thankful for the explosion and information 238 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: of psycho education on TikTok Instagram podcasts. I think it 239 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: gives us so much more validity to say, oh, I'm 240 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: not alone in feeling this way. But when it comes 241 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: to financial anxiety, we just don't real really talk about it. 242 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: So it can come from a bunch of different things, 243 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: but really it is the physical sensation of racing thoughts 244 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: and feeling uncomfortable. Is how is what makes us compensate 245 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: with perfectionism or procrastination. And to your point earlier, these 246 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: things are not necessarily frowned upon to research the best 247 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: bank account. What's bad about that? But what's bad about 248 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: it is that it can sometimes take precedence of actually 249 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: figuring out what they want their relationship with money to 250 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: look like. What would it be like to log into 251 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: your bank account and not feel that wave of anxiety? 252 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: What would it be like to go to brunch and 253 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: not have to feel like you had to research everything 254 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: you know for a week in advance before you went there. 255 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: So really thinking about the amount of effort that it 256 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: takes to try and avoid financial anxiety versus just saying 257 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: I can tolerate a little bit of discomfort. I can 258 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: learn to move through this. I can learn about money 259 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: and also my relationship about money, so that if I 260 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: experienced financial anxiety, hopefully it's either less intense or less 261 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: frequent over time. M Yeah, that's really I think a 262 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: great explanation. This is something when I first started talking 263 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: talking to you, thinking about the work that you do 264 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: that really interests me. And perhaps it is a bit 265 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: more psychology, a bit Freudian, but can you kind of 266 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: point to perhaps things that have happened as child or 267 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: when you're younger that might manifest in financial anxiety. Do 268 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: you tend to see that with your clients, Perhaps people 269 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: who didn't have as much growing up really struggle with this, 270 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: or those who had kind of inconsistent income streams, or 271 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: their parents had inconsistent job or jobs or kind of 272 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: financial avenues. Is that something you tend to say with 273 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: your clients. Of course I do. So we cannot escape 274 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: our childhoods. And just like we learn many things about 275 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: the way in which we view the world from our childhood, 276 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: we learn about money as children. And research has found 277 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: that most of us have more or less made a 278 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: decision about what money is or isn't, or what we're 279 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 1: allowed to do or not do with it by the 280 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: time we're eight years old. Yeah, so it's really interesting 281 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 1: because many adults they don't want to talk to their 282 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: kids about money. I can imagine many parents saying to 283 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: their child who's five, six, seven, Hey, mom, how much 284 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: money do you earn? Being met with a response of like, 285 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: we don't talk about it. It's rude, that's impolite. So, 286 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: of course, our childhood comes into play, and we learn 287 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: about money, not just from our caregivers, but also from 288 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: our friends, from where we attend school, from neighborhood we 289 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: grow up in, from what spiritual or religious practices we have, 290 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: and then also the different laws and policies that impact us. 291 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: So it's not just the house we grew up in, 292 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: but also where was that house located and what are 293 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: all the layers outside of that house as well? And 294 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: that of course can impact an adult's financial anxiety. If 295 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: you imagine that the inner child is kind of driving 296 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: financial decisions, it makes perfect sense why so many adults 297 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: struggles so much or do things where they're like, I 298 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: don't know why I keep doing this with my money? Right, Yeah, 299 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: that is a very very interesting and I love that 300 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: you said, you know, my inner child is the one 301 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: who is making financial decisions, because I think that really 302 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: sticks with me and some of my own financial decisions. 303 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh, you know, because I perhaps didn't 304 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: feel this was available to me as a child, or 305 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to make these purchases like now I'm going 306 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: to buy this, and I think I guess, Like, another 307 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: really big thing I want to talk to you about 308 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: is where do you go from there? You know, you've 309 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: had this experience, You've you know, created this pattern of 310 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: behaviors around how you deal with your emotional reactions to money. 311 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: And if I was a client right now, if my 312 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: audience was a client, can you give us an overview 313 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: of what advice you would give them. Yeah, I would 314 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: love too. So let's imagine you're in your twenties and 315 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: you grew up in a household where money was tight, right, 316 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: you overheard your parents or your caregivers saying like, oh, 317 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: we can't afford that, or all we need to call 318 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: the utility company. I'm worried we're not going to be 319 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: able to make bills this month, or being told Nope, 320 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: you can't go on that field trip, or we're not 321 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: we don't we can't afford to go on holiday. So 322 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: those are a lot of the messages you hear in 323 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: your household, and growing up you felt quite anxious and 324 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: vis about money, and fast forward to being in your 325 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: early twenties, the message you internalized from your parents was 326 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: it's important to work really hard so that you don't 327 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: have to struggle. So then that young adult may end 328 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: up coping with their financial anxiety, that fear that they 329 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: won't have enough by throwing themselves into workaholism, let's say, 330 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: but working a corporate job and then having a side 331 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: hustle and saying no to hanging out with friends so 332 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: that they can save money. And so that might be 333 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: how they deal with that, their financial anxiety shows up 334 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: as perfectionism. So what advice I would give to that 335 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: type of young adult is, how true is it that 336 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: you are no longer able to meet your needs? How 337 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: true is it that it's going to be difficult to 338 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: pay the bills this month? And to get really clear 339 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: on where you are now versus where you were as 340 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: a child, and with a lot of compassion, a lot 341 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: out of kindness, saying something like, you know, oh, it 342 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: makes sense that it's it's so important for me to 343 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: work hard and save a lot of money, and I'm 344 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: no longer that six or seven year old child. I 345 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: now have the capacity to have money set aside for 346 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: a rainy day, and I have more than enough to 347 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: be able to join my friends every other weekend to 348 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: catch up over drinks. So that would be the way 349 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: that we would deal with it is logic, and then 350 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: also bridging that gap and tying back into that emotional 351 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: reason why they might have ended up in perfectionism and 352 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: overworking as a way to deal with their childhood. Yeah, 353 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: and those are such croping mechanisms, I think, you know, 354 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: when we distract ourselves from our emotional experiences, it's like 355 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: I think it's very textbook croping mechanism, and I love 356 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: the way that you've explained that about really consciously thinking 357 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: about where that would have come from. I also think 358 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: from an Australian perspective, for our listeners who are in Australia, 359 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: it is a real taboo thing to discuss money unless 360 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: you are very very close with other people. Discussions around 361 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: money are not something that has frequently had. There's also, 362 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: I think a massive financial gap in Australia between those 363 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: who can afford to enjoy their lives from a financial 364 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: standpoint and invest money in things that they want and 365 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: long term financial decisions, and those who do not have 366 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: that opportunity. So, thinking about a system wide level or 367 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: about a societal level, what do you think needs to 368 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: change in society so that we see less people coming 369 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: into their twenties or late adulthood experiencing this really deep 370 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: emotional reaction around their finances. I love this question. When 371 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: the the first when the Great Recession happened back in 372 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven eight, I was just finishing up 373 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: university and graduating right into that, so I remember it 374 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: very well. But the World Health Organization at that point 375 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: in time, did a study of people's mental health and 376 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: layered on how they were doing financially. And what that 377 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: research found was that in countries where there were stronger 378 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: social safety nets financial safety nets, people's mental health was 379 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: less impacted. So I think of that data all the 380 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: time when I'm thinking about how can we protect our 381 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: young people from having to experience unnecessary financial anxiety. Right, 382 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: we can help with the family dynamics, but you or 383 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: I don't have the capacity to change the systems and 384 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: laws outside of advocating for changes in systems and laws. 385 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: So I think at baseline, I'm loving all of the 386 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: worker unionization and organization that is happening globally, the demand 387 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: for higher wages, for paid time off. In the US, 388 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: we don't even have maternity and paternity leave like that goodness, Yeah, 389 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: that's yeah, we don't have it. You can in some jobs, 390 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: you can have twelve weeks of your job protected but unpaid. 391 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: So having things like maternity paternity leave, having things like childcare. 392 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: In the US, there's almost no childcare until a child 393 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: goes to school in kindergarten. Everything else is paid. But 394 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: whether you're US based Australia based, you're listening to this 395 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: in Europe, having a strong social safety net that can 396 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: capture people so that they can have their basics needs 397 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: met food, shelter, clothing, transportation, that makes a huge difference. 398 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: And what we know is that when those needs are met, 399 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: people report that their mood improves. So I think for 400 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: young people in Australia or elsewhere to continually advocate to 401 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: have those types of policies in place, not just for 402 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: yourself and warier friends, but for the the global health 403 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: and for your country's health. We know that it makes 404 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: a huge difference mentally when those needs are met. Yeah, 405 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: and fabulous, fabulous answer, and I agree with every single 406 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: part of it. I think, speaking from my own experience 407 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: in Australia, we're seeing a huge push towards expanding social 408 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: social safety nets. I think we already have a pretty 409 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: amazing system. We do get paid maternality leave, we have 410 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: a pretty amazing social security system called send a Link. 411 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: But there have been huge discussions around the fact that 412 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: it is sometimes less than thirty forty dollars a day 413 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: that people are receiving. And you can, I think that yourself, 414 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: as a financial therapist can very clearly say that and 415 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: I think most people in general, that's probably not a 416 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: great place to build a solid emotional and psychological foundation 417 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: from a place of such instability, right, exactly, exactly, And 418 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: if we continue to put it on individuals to improve 419 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: their financial health, we continue to make it harder for 420 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: everybody to get better. Right. It has to be a both, 421 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: and it has to be the systems are in place 422 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: to help us succeed, and we have to have access 423 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: to education so that we can make our own wise 424 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: decisions about our finances. Yeah, I absolutely agree. So we've 425 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: talked about a lot of things so far. We've talked 426 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: about talked about in a child, so, we've talked about 427 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: system wide approaches. We've talked about your individual kind of 428 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: mental state in relation to your finances. But I kind 429 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: of want to move on now to talking about how 430 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: do we manage money in our relationships. I feel like 431 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: it's the next unit of analysis for us to kind 432 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: of dive into. So, Yeah, there are obviously some big 433 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: financial changes that come with entering out twenties or adulthood. 434 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: What do you kind of say when it comes to 435 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: people navigating their finances when you know they into long 436 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: term relationships or with friends, or even with family. So 437 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: I think as you are in your twenties and you're 438 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: going through that transition into your your career, there's often 439 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: a shift from not making much money into making at 440 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: least better money, and with that comes more opportunities to 441 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: do things with your friends. But as we know, people 442 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,959 Speaker 1: in the same peer group don't all make the same income. 443 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: They don't all live in the same apartment complex. Right, 444 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: we have different income and we have different expenses. So 445 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: let's talk about maybe friends, and then relationships, and then 446 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: romantic relationships. So when it comes to friends, so many 447 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,120 Speaker 1: people fall into ghosting their friends or rather than saying, hey, 448 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: I can't afford that, right, so many people are like, 449 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to tell my friends that 450 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: I can't go wine taster, I can't join them for 451 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: that you know, mini holiday. Instead I'll just kind of 452 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: say sure, sounds great and then not show or cancel 453 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: on the same day. And over time, what happens if 454 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: we don't tell our friends why we're not joining them, 455 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense that they would stop extending that 456 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: invitation versus having a relatively candid but you don't have 457 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: to share everything conversation with them, So In this scenario, 458 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: Let's say you're a person who's earning less than your 459 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: friend group, or maybe has different financial priorities than your 460 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: friend group, and they love hangouts that involve spending money, 461 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: and at a point where you're like, I mean, I 462 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: could do that once a month, twice a month, but 463 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: it's not a priority for me, or I'm not able 464 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: to do it every week. So rather than ghosting, which 465 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: is easy in the short term but harder in the 466 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: long term, I advise people to kind of of that 467 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: friend group, find the one that you're the closest, to 468 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: have a chat with them and just say, hey, this 469 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: is a little bit uncomfortable, right, name the emotion, name 470 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: the feeling, but I'm hot a place financially where I'd 471 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: love to do the things that y'all are doing, but 472 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: I'm not able to. Would it possible to do some 473 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: low or no cost activities and then give them ideas 474 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: of things that come to mind. We could go on 475 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: a hike, we could do a pot luck at my house, 476 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: we could rent watch a movie on Netflix. Like, given 477 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,959 Speaker 1: them some ideas of things that you could do, And 478 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: what I find most of the time is that the 479 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: person on the other end. The person receiving it is 480 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: usually a thankful to know that they weren't being ghosted 481 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: on for no reason, but be they're also so relieved 482 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: to have another option of things to do. I think 483 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: in the States in Australia, it's very common for like 484 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: the go to activity to be going out to a pub. 485 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, so many other things that we can do, 486 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: and we often forget that there are options aside from 487 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: going to the bar or going out to eat, and 488 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: so reminding your friends of that. So that's what I 489 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: would say for friendships is is have a transparent conversation. 490 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: You don't have to tell them how much money you're 491 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: earning or how much your rent is. You can just say, look, 492 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: I'd love to hang out with you, but y'all choose 493 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: really expensive activities, or you know, my budget better accommodates 494 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: activities like this. That is great language to use, like 495 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: my budget better accommodates activities like this. Providing example, she 496 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: is literally scripting your lives. Yeah, just copy and paste, 497 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: put it into a text message. If phone calls freak 498 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: you out, put it into a text. Then you can 499 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: spend some time kind of revisiting it, sitting on it, 500 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: and then and then just send it. You'll be You'll 501 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: be pleasantly surprised. I think so many people are much 502 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: more understanding than we imagine they will be. Yeah, And 503 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: I think it's also a kind of a great litmus 504 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: test for your quality of your friendships. You know, if 505 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: your friendships, Yeah, if they're not willing to accommodate your 506 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: individual financial situation or your financial priorities, perhaps it's good 507 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: to see if they are willing to accommodate you as 508 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: an entire individual. And all of that comes with I 509 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: think another thing, and perhaps it's very similar, but I 510 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: would really like to ask you for your advice or 511 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: what you think about this is the tendency to feel 512 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: pressure to spend more money than you perhaps have or 513 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: want to spend. And what some of the consequences that 514 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: might have for your well being but also for your 515 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: financial financial state, and what do we do around that 516 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: kind of conundrum? This is a good question. So this 517 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: is a phenomenon called lifestyle inflation, and what that means 518 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: is when you earn more money, you spend more money. 519 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: So as we move from entry level careers to maybe 520 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: mid level careers, so I think from like your early 521 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: twenties to your mid re late twenties. So hopefully you're 522 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: moving up in pay and you're able to earn more money, 523 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: which we love. And oftentimes what happens is that then 524 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: you start spending the way that other people in those 525 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: positions do. Right, So you move out of your one 526 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: bedroom flat and you move into a house, or you 527 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: move from kind of the rural area into the city, 528 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: and then you're surrounded by people who have slightly nicer 529 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: cars and slightly nicer clothes, and their nails are done 530 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: and their hair is done all the time, and they 531 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: go and get monthly facials and massages, and before you 532 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: know it, you find yourself doing those same types of 533 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: things with my clients. I find it's less about my 534 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: clients aren't the ones typically who are like very brand 535 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: name heavy, but we're all influenced by our peers, so 536 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: it could be that they start trying to match the 537 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: lifestyle of people around them, spending more money on hiking gear, 538 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: let's say, or camping gear or whatever it is. And 539 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: so when you find yourself in a place where you're 540 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: spending more than maybe you anticipated or that you want 541 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: to be, I always invite people to come back to 542 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: how much is this purchase in alignment with my values? 543 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: Because research shows that when we spend in alignment with 544 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: our values, we are much more likely to rank that 545 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: purchase as making us happy. So, for example, I personally 546 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: am not a camping fan. I grew up camping, but 547 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: I don't like doing it now. So if my friends 548 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: were to say, let's go camping and I had to 549 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: buy a new sleeping bag, a new lantern, and all 550 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: this stuff, I would probably be pretty cranky about that 551 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: purchase because it's not in alignment with my values. Now. However, 552 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: if they were like, we're going camping, but you can 553 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: just come along for the day and go hiking with us, 554 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: I might be thrilled to buy a new pair of 555 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: hiking boots and get to sleep at an Airbnb or 556 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: at a hotel. Right, So that would be more in 557 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: alignment with what matters to me. Is I still the 558 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: distend quality time with my friends. I purchase a pair 559 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: of boots that I will be able to use on this, 560 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, excursion and other ones, and I'm not doing 561 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: something that I don't love. So I encourage people to 562 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: do a loving audit of what they're spending on. If 563 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 1: they're spending a lot on beauty or clothing or cars, 564 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: ask yourself, how important are these things to me? For 565 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: some people, they get so much joy out of the 566 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: creativity of trying new makeup trends and trying new hairstyles. Great, 567 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: go for it so long as you can afford it. 568 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: But maybe for that person, they don't really care about 569 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: going out to eat. It's not their thing. They're not 570 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: a foodie, So maybe then they can dial back they're 571 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: spending in that area. So it's it's less about cutting 572 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: everything and more about cutting the things that don't really 573 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: matter to you. You have really shine a lot on 574 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: my own financial decisions. I'm so happy to do it. Yeah, 575 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: And I think we have a word for this sinistry, 576 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: very similar to lifestyle inflation, called lifestyle creep. And I 577 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: was having a discussion with my friend about this the 578 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: other day when you know, I didn't think about it much, 579 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: and then your explanation, I've been like, oh, like dang, 580 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: that is spot on. And as someone who is in 581 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: the early twenties, you know, I've just started making serious money. 582 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: As of a lot of my friends, it is so 583 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: many I have money available to me, so it's so 584 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: much easier to be like, Oh, if I had had 585 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: this money when I was younger, I would have spent 586 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: it on this or that and buying things that make 587 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: me very instantly happy, but perhaps don't align to my 588 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: values as you said, or what was the term you used. 589 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: Was it alignment to your alignment to your values? Yeah, 590 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: and alignment to how much I'm probably going to use 591 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: it like I bought. Yeah, I'm not even going to 592 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: shame myself anymore because I feel like you would probably 593 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: tell me off for it, but I would do it 594 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: but gently. Yeah, of course you would get at your job. 595 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: So exactly. But I'm sure there are many people listening 596 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: who are like, oh, Like that explains me to a 597 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: tea lifestyle creep is so easy to get into, and 598 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 1: especially when we think about social and group psychology and 599 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: wanting to feel like we belong and a great way 600 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: to do that is to present the same kind of 601 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: indicators or facade or material items as other individuals within 602 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: the group that we want to approval from. So I 603 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: think it's definitely something to think about. Now. I want 604 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: to pick your brain on relationships, particularly romantic relationships. So anecdotally, 605 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: a lot of my friends have found incredible life partners, 606 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: people that they love and great people. And I think 607 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: that's something that happens a lot in our twenties and 608 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: in Australia there is a tendency to move in or 609 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: perhaps this is also an America, but to move in 610 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: before you're engaged, before you're married, and sometimes to move 611 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: in together but have split finances. So I feel like 612 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: for those who are perhaps ready to make this decision 613 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: already have made this decision and an out trying to 614 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: find their footing, can you talk us through some of 615 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: the problems or issues they might face, some of the 616 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: things to account for. Of course, so that's what I did. 617 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: I cohabitated with my partner for seven years. We actually 618 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: bought a home together before we were engaged, and globally 619 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: that is becoming more common for partners to move in together, 620 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: share expenses, or do a their's mine and hours before 621 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,399 Speaker 1: getting married. We'd go off on that for a whole 622 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: other thing. But I would say, first of all, like 623 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: good for the two of you for acknowledging what works 624 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: for you, and a great time to talk about money 625 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: is of course, in my opinion, anytime, but also when 626 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: we're going through a life change. So as you're getting 627 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: ready to move in together, if you're deciding you want 628 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: to get engaged, if you already lived together but you're 629 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: looking to move those are perfect times to bring up 630 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: the money conversation. And what we know is that couples 631 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: who talk about money report being happier than those that don't, 632 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: which is different than the convert, which is couples who 633 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: fight about money are more likely to report separation or divorce. 634 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 1: So it is a myth that talking about money will 635 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: somehow break you apart. But we have to be conscious 636 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: about how we are actually bringing out it up because 637 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: to your point, it's taboo. It's something we don't talk 638 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 1: about in particularly in both of our cultures. There's a 639 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: lot of romanticism that floats around there about romantic relationships, like, 640 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: you know, we just love each other and everything else 641 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: just takes care of itself. But you know, love is 642 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: a great part of a partnership and other things have 643 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: to be in alignment as well. So again kind of 644 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: leading with the this is awkward, this is uncomfortable, and 645 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: giving your partner heads up that you want to talk 646 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: about money. So it would literally be hey, vibe, I 647 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: know we're getting ready to think about moving apartments. I 648 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: would love if we could sit down later this weekend 649 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: and talk about what our budget is and then just 650 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: see if we need to change anything about how we're 651 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: splitting expenses. So what you're doing is you're coming to 652 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: them at a neutral time. You're not coming at them 653 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: when you're mad. You're not like, oh my gosh, you 654 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: blew our grocery money again, what's wrong with you? You're 655 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: the worst. But you're not in that heated space. You're neutral, 656 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: So you're coming at them from neutrality. You're also sharing 657 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: how it's going to benefit the two of you. I 658 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 1: want to make sure we can talk about our budget. 659 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: I want to make sure we are on the same 660 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: page about where we want to move. And then also 661 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: you're giving them a heads up so that they can 662 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: prepare to have that conversation, because so often we are 663 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: caught totally off guard when somebody wants to have a 664 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: hard conversation like that, or at least uncomfortable. Maybe hard's 665 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: the wrong word, but giving somebody a heads up be helpful, 666 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: and then to actually have that conversation. I recommend sitting 667 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: down without distractions, or as few distractions as possible, having 668 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: one or two things per kind of conversation that you're 669 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: going to talk about. So in this example, let's talk 670 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: about our apartment budget and make sure we're still okay 671 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 1: splitting expenses the way we have been. And then once 672 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: you answer those two things, you kind of shut it down. 673 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: Then you open the door to have a money conversation 674 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: later on, because what we want to do is build 675 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,919 Speaker 1: in what I call money dates, and that's where you're 676 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: talking about money regularly, but it's not all the time. 677 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: You can kind of table those money conversations for once 678 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: a week or twice a month, and then you can 679 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: also when you're having that money discussion, also know your 680 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: partner's boundaries and your boundaries, right. I know, for me, 681 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: if I suddenly get really quiet in a discussion, that's 682 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: a cute that I'm probably being triggered a bit or 683 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: I'm being pushed too far, and that's probably a time 684 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,720 Speaker 1: for me to say, you know what, I can feel 685 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: my tension rising. Would it be okay if I stepped 686 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: away for a few minutes and then came back. And 687 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: then we also have to know when it's time to 688 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: just shut down the conversation altogether. And try later. So 689 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: it could be I'm totally shut down, I take my 690 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: five minute breather, I come back, and I'm immediately emotionally 691 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: dysregulated again. That would be a cue for me to say, Bay, 692 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: let's actually finish this conversation tomorrow. I'm kind of maxed out. 693 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: I appreciate that we're talking about, but I can't. I 694 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: can't keep going right now. So having some parameters around 695 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: that conversation, acknowledging that it's awkward not catching your partner 696 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: off guard, or all tips that I would advise anyone, 697 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: particularly folks in their twenties. M that is fabulous advice. 698 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna listen back to this if I reached that stage, 699 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: or I'm thinking about money with my partner or someone else. 700 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: So can I just propose one more anecdote to you, 701 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: more hypothetical, So say you and your partner really disagree 702 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: about money, or perhaps one of you is more generous 703 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: with the income. I've definitely found myself in this position before, 704 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: where I was contributing to more items that we would 705 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 1: both share, or two trips, or to petrol in the car, 706 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: things like that. I think that's obviously a place of 707 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: great attention, and perhaps there's greater room for conflict in 708 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: that scenario. What kind of ways would you approach approach 709 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: this situation? So, for sure I would have the conversation 710 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: about who is in charge of or who is responsible 711 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,399 Speaker 1: for each of these different financial expenses. So for many 712 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: couples who live together and aren't married, or who have 713 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: chosen to not merge everything, I love doing a theirs 714 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: mine in ours bank account system. That's where one person 715 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: has their own money, the other person as their own money, 716 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: and they contribute to a shared account that is only 717 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: for joint expenses, so rent, petrol, groceries, things like that. 718 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: Then whatever is in each of their individual accounts they 719 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: can spend or save as they like. Now, when it 720 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: comes to one off things like holiday, I think that's 721 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: when having another conversation can be helpful, Like, Hey, we 722 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: have so and so's wedding in a few months, I 723 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: think we should probably set aside some money for it. 724 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: How are we going to do that? So having those 725 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: conversations ahead of time can be hugely, hugely helpful. And 726 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: then if you do end up doing that type of 727 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: accounting system, let's say, if your partner spends their money 728 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: not your joint money in a way that you want 729 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: to roll your eyes at. You have to be comfortable 730 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: enough to let it go. So if they want to 731 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: go spend their money on I don't know, tuning up 732 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: their car or buying a bunch of sneakers, so long 733 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: as your shared expenses are met, have to be really 734 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: comfortable saying that's their money that they're allowed to spend 735 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: how they want. So you know, you know yourself, you 736 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: know your relationship well, and see if that would work 737 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: for you. But that's the method I like, And the 738 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,280 Speaker 1: asterisk I will add there is that for that shared account. 739 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: Depending on the regulations or depending on your comfort level, 740 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: you might not be comfortable enough to actually open a 741 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: joint checking account together. So then what you would do 742 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,800 Speaker 1: is kind of tally up your expenses and have one person, 743 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: let's say rent was a thousand dollars, one person would 744 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: pay rent and the other person would pay for groceries, utilities, 745 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: and phones, and nat adds up to a thousand dollars. 746 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,399 Speaker 1: That's another way to do it to where you're contributing 747 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,479 Speaker 1: somewhat equally to the household expenses. Yeah, and I think 748 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: with everything you've just said, it's about being comfortable enough 749 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: to approach your partner with these discussions, and I think 750 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,760 Speaker 1: a sense of vulnerability and honesty with them. I love 751 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: the advice that you've given throughout this throughout these kind 752 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,919 Speaker 1: of discussions has been named the feeling and be really 753 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 1: honest about it. And I think when you're able to 754 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: do that, and you're able to be like this is uncomfortable, 755 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: you almost create kind of like an equal footing and 756 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: equal level playing field for you and the other person. Okay, 757 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: I want to just ask you find any final pieces 758 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: of advice. I also want to talk about your book, 759 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: which I can see you guys can't see it, but 760 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: I can see is right over your shoulder. I think 761 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,280 Speaker 1: it's an amazing resource. So I'll give you some space 762 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,320 Speaker 1: now to if you've got any final thoughts, final pieces 763 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: of advice, and then please plug away, because I want 764 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: people to to know your content and to know who 765 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 1: you are. I think it's amazing. Thank you. Yes. One 766 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: final thing that I am to almost all of my 767 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: conversations is that no matter where you are in your 768 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: journey with money, plan to make mistakes rather than planning 769 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: on learning and executing things perfectly. Know that you will 770 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: make more money mistakes, and that's perfectly fine, just as 771 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: we expect to make mistakes and other areas of our life. 772 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 1: We're going to burn dinner, We're gonna lose directions to 773 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: a restaurant we're supposed to go to. You're going to 774 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,360 Speaker 1: make mistakes. This is a part of the journey. And 775 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,280 Speaker 1: rather than beating yourself up or being hard on yourself, 776 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: I invite the listeners to just extend themselves some compassion 777 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: that this stuff is hard and awkward and complicated, and 778 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 1: it will take more than one podcast episode as great 779 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: as this one is, more than one podcast episode, more 780 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,839 Speaker 1: than one book, more than one YouTube video to start 781 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,479 Speaker 1: cultivating a healthy relationship with money. So give yourself lots 782 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: of permission to make mistakes. Know that that's totally normal 783 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: and I plan to make many more in my life. Yeah, yeah, 784 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: very great advice. And then can you also give us 785 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,360 Speaker 1: a book but also of your services if people are interested, 786 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 1: because I feel like if you are someone who is 787 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,240 Speaker 1: listening to this episode, you're probably are struggling with financial 788 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,399 Speaker 1: anxiety or how to navigate finances in relationships a little bit. 789 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: So can you talk more about what you offer and 790 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: how you go about it, of course. So my business 791 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: is called Mind Money Balance. You can find me in 792 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: all the social places at that handle. My podcast is 793 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,359 Speaker 1: of the same name, my websites of the same name, 794 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,839 Speaker 1: and I help people at the intersection of money and 795 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 1: mental health. And I do that through coaching, therapy and 796 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 1: speaking engagements. So I invite you, if you enjoy this conversation, 797 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: to follow along and see if there's any other content 798 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: that resonates. And then my book is called The Financial 799 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: Anxiety Solution. It is a workbook. It's highly interactive. It 800 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: is really focused on some of the things that we 801 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: covered today. How do you think about money, how do 802 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,919 Speaker 1: you feel about money? Or are your financial behaviors how 803 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 1: much are they helping you or harming you? And it 804 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: gives you a lot of tools to help you dial 805 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: down that anxiety, normalize it and help you learn to 806 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,800 Speaker 1: recognize your own patterns in terms of your relationship with money. 807 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,239 Speaker 1: And you can get that book. I invite you to 808 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 1: have your independent bookseller order it for you, but of 809 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: course you can get on Amazon. But I just like 810 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: keeping money in the local bookstores as much as possible. Yeah, 811 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: if you're in Australia. I also think that that's something 812 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,279 Speaker 1: you should do. Go to your local bookstore. They don't 813 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:44,400 Speaker 1: get enough support. Well, thank you so much. We have 814 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,439 Speaker 1: been speaking for almost an hour. It's just flown by, 815 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,760 Speaker 1: and I honestly think that I kind of got a 816 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: personal therapy session out of this my pleasure. I truly 817 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: love talking about this topic and I no matter what 818 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,400 Speaker 1: stage of life you're in, this topic is important and 819 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: I'm so honored that you said yes to having me 820 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: on and I hope all the listeners took little bits 821 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 1: and pieces away from them. Yeah, I absolutely think that 822 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: they did. This has been one of my favorite episodes, 823 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:17,719 Speaker 1: So a big thank you to Lindsay and Matt. Yeah, 824 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,400 Speaker 1: and if you do want to know more about this topic, 825 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:25,839 Speaker 1: please follow her. Her instagram is incredible and provides just 826 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: really amazing bite sized pieces of advice that you can 827 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: filter into your own lifestyle and as you say fit. 828 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: As always, thank you so much for tuning into this episode, 829 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,800 Speaker 1: this special guest episode. I really loved having Lindsay on board, 830 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: and as always, if you enjoyed the show. If you 831 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 1: enjoyed the episode today, please give a five star rating 832 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: on Spotify podcasts, Apple Podcasts, wherever you are listening right now. 833 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,359 Speaker 1: It really helps the podcast to grow and to reach 834 00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,839 Speaker 1: more people. Additionally, if you're really enjoying the intent, we 835 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,440 Speaker 1: now have a paid subscriber version where you get bonus 836 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: content every month. If you're interested, please go to the 837 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 1: link in the podcast description and thank you again for listening. 838 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure I'll see you next week, when we will 839 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: be discussing more about the psychology of our twenties.