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Speaker 1: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived.

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Speaker 2: To you, If you think that one person has all

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Speaker 2: the answers, don't welcome to trust me. The podcast about

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Speaker 2: Colt's extreme belief and the abusive power from two firecrackers

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Speaker 2: who've actually experienced it. I Am Lola Blanc and I

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Speaker 2: Am Megan Elizabeth, and today is part two of our

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Speaker 2: interview with Diane Lake and Deborah Herman. Diane, if you

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Speaker 2: did not listen last week, was the youngest member of

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Speaker 2: the Manson family, known in the family as Snake, and

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Speaker 2: Deborah is the co author of Diane's memoir, which is

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Speaker 2: called Member of the Family, My Story of Charles Manson,

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Speaker 2: Life inside his Colt and the darkness that ended the sixties.

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Speaker 1: So in this episode, we're.

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Speaker 2: Going to discuss the LSD fueled lifestyle they were living,

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Speaker 2: how Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys was involved with

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Speaker 2: the group, and how Charlie's rhetorick began getting more and

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Speaker 2: more fixated on the idea of a race war as

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Speaker 2: he just basically spiraled downward, all while they were all.

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Speaker 1: On a lot of drugs.

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Speaker 5: We also into how she learned about the murders from

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Speaker 5: the killers themselves, getting out of the group, testifying against

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Speaker 5: them in court, and how being institutionalized after was.

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Speaker 6: The best thing that could have ever happened to her.

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Speaker 2: So last week I actually thought that we didn't need

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Speaker 2: to do an explanation of the Manson family and the

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Speaker 2: murders they committed, because it's such common knowledge and once

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Speaker 2: upon a time in Hollywood, Quentin Tarantino's last movie was

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Speaker 2: literally just rewriting the story of the Manson murders. That's

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Speaker 2: how big of an event this was. But then the

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Speaker 2: other night I was hanging out with a couple of gals.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're like one year above the gen Z Mark. Okay,

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Speaker 2: they're younger, younger than me, and they did not know

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Speaker 2: the story. Somehow, one friend asked, bless her heart, she

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Speaker 2: asked how many Manson girls survived?

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Speaker 1: Oh, which opposite I was? It was like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: how many?

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Speaker 2: No, they know they killed, they were the non they

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Speaker 2: other people or who you should be concerned for in

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Speaker 2: this scenario. Anyway, that led me to the realization that

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Speaker 2: we absolute need to be giving an overview for you

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Speaker 2: young folk out there who do not know this story.

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Speaker 2: So warning it is graphic, pretty horrible murder talk. So

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Speaker 2: if murder is not your bag today, then I would say,

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Speaker 2: maybe go ahead and skip this one.

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Speaker 1: So here we go.

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Speaker 2: August eighth, nineteen sixty nine, Beverly Hills. Now Sharon Tate

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Speaker 2: was an actress who was married to the director Roman Polanski,

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Speaker 2: who became infamous for things later on, but this was

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Speaker 2: before that. Sharon Tate eight and a half months pregnant

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Speaker 2: living in this house, and basically she and her three

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Speaker 2: friends who were there that night, and then another guy

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Speaker 2: who also happened to be on the property that night,

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Speaker 2: were all very violently murdered. There was hairstylist Jay Sebring,

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Speaker 2: aspiring screenwriter Voitchek Fraikowski I think you say that's how

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Speaker 2: you say it, and his girlfriend Abigail Folger, who was

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Speaker 2: heiress to the folder's coffee fortune. And then there was

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Speaker 2: an eighteen year old guy named Stephen Parent who was

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Speaker 2: visiting the guest house. They were all killed violently beyond violently, yeah,

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Speaker 2: like horrifyingly violent. The intruders were three women and one man.

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Speaker 2: And here's sort of how it went down. So they

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Speaker 2: showed up, cut the phone lines. Stephen Parent was walking out.

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Speaker 2: I guess when they got there, so they shot him

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Speaker 2: right away, and then they went inside, forced everyone in

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Speaker 2: the house into the living room and began committing these

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Speaker 2: like gruesome, horrific crimes. So Seabrang was stabbed seven times.

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Speaker 2: Fraikowski was stabbed and then shot twice and then finished

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Speaker 2: off with more stabs as he tried to escape while

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Speaker 2: he was wounded, so he was in total stabbed fifty

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Speaker 2: one times. Abbiail Folger was stabbed twenty eight times as

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Speaker 2: she tried to escape, and then in the house Sharon

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Speaker 2: Tate begged to be allowed to live long enough to

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Speaker 2: give birth to her child, but they showed no mercy

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Speaker 2: and they stabbed her sixteen times, killing both her and

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Speaker 2: the baby, and then they wrote the word pig on

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Speaker 2: the front door in her blood. The batshit goal of

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Speaker 2: theirs was to make the murders look like they had

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Speaker 2: been committed by black people to help jumpstart this race

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Speaker 2: war that they thought was imminently coming. The culprits were

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Speaker 2: Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, who was known in the group

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Speaker 2: of Sadie, Linda Kassavian, and Patricia Krenwinkle, and they were

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Speaker 2: all followers of Charles Manson. So Manson had ordered them

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Speaker 2: to go to this house. I think he'd been there before.

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Speaker 2: This music producer had lived there once or something. He

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Speaker 2: said to totally destroy everyone in it and to be

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Speaker 2: as gruesome as you can. And he told the women

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Speaker 2: to do just what tex Watson instructed them to do.

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Speaker 2: So then the next night, basically Manson then took all

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Speaker 2: of them plus two other members, Leslie Van Hatten and

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Speaker 2: Steve Clem Grogan for a drive and apparently was like

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Speaker 2: not pleased with how the victims had tried to escape

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Speaker 2: and panic the night before, so he brought them to

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Speaker 2: another house to apparently show them how to do it. Oh,

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Speaker 2: they stopped at a house in Los Felis, And I've

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Speaker 2: been to this house because every true crime person has

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Speaker 2: been to this house. I mean outside, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to disturb the occupants. But they stopped at this house

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Speaker 2: in Los Felis where a couple and I think they

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Speaker 2: are an older couple, supermarket exec yeah, and co owner

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Speaker 2: of a dress shop they lived and it was next

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Speaker 2: to a house where they had been to a party

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Speaker 2: of the previous year. So it's kind of complicated what happened,

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Speaker 2: but basically Manson went inside and bound up Leno la

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Speaker 2: Bianca and then sent in three of the people, and

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Speaker 2: then the women like started to attack Rosemary, and Watson

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Speaker 2: helped them stab her, and then he stabbed the guy

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Speaker 2: twelve times.

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Speaker 1: And carved the word war into his abdomen.

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Speaker 2: And then he went back to where the women were

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Speaker 2: and found Krenwinkle stabbing her, and then Van Houghton was

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Speaker 2: told to also join in the stabbings, which she did

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Speaker 2: sixteen times. She says that Rosemary was already dead when

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Speaker 2: she participated, and in fact, many of the forty one

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Speaker 2: stab wounds were actually indeed inflicted postwartum. She's been up

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Speaker 2: for parole three times and she keeps getting refused because

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Speaker 2: of the nature of the crime, even though she's been

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Speaker 2: recommended three times and she's in her seventies. But that's

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Speaker 2: a story for another day. That's one to debate another time.

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Speaker 2: There was another murder a couple weeks later of a stuntman.

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Speaker 2: That's probably where Tarantino got the premise of his movie Stuntman.

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Speaker 1: I don't know anyway.

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Speaker 2: All of the killers were in Charles Manson's cults, and

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Speaker 2: we think of him as a serial killer kind of,

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Speaker 2: but he actually got his heavily indoctrinated and very drugged

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Speaker 2: up followers to commit murders for him, and it was

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Speaker 2: a huge moment in history.

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Speaker 1: So that's the gist.

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Speaker 2: So if you're young and you didn't know, now you know.

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Speaker 2: So having said that, Megan, yes, tell me what the

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Speaker 2: cultiest thing that happened to you this week was.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Well, essentially, I was on a little road trip

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Speaker 5: and I went to a Hilton and I almost got

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Speaker 5: sucked into going to one of those timeshare meetings.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I've been to those actually, and I got free.

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Speaker 1: Trip out of it. I've gotten two free trips out

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 6: I mean the I'm thinking I should have gone.

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Speaker 2: I'm like advocating for you to join the time share

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Speaker 2: yeah money cult.

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Speaker 5: I narrowly escaped, and I'm glad because it's just so

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Speaker 5: awkward to have those conversations with people.

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Speaker 6: So I'm here. I'm okay. I am not an a

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Speaker 6: time share like buying being contract. That's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have done a couple of the presentations and

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you I got okay.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: You get a free vacation out of it, but you

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Speaker 2: get it to like their absolute worst locations. So I

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Speaker 2: got a five day vacation, but it was in Mesquite, Nevada,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, like the hottest place of all time where

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Speaker 2: there is absolutely nothing to do except I think there's

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Speaker 2: like one casino. So I stayed in Mesquite, Nevada for

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Speaker 2: a week with my friends to shoot something nearby in Utah.

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Speaker 6: But oh that's cool. Yeah, that's so smart.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 1: That was like my trick.

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Speaker 2: I did it one more time too, And I think

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Speaker 2: I actually did get a timeshare in Big Bearer. Maybe

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Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe not. Maybe that was just my

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Speaker 2: dad's timeshare. I don't think he has the time share anymore.

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Speaker 2: My dad got out.

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Speaker 1: He's free.

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Speaker 6: What about you, what's the cultiest thing that happened to you?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 2: Well, actually, last night I watched a movie that my

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Speaker 2: friend Megan, a different Megan, has been telling me about

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Speaker 2: for a while. And it's from nineteen ninety five and

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Speaker 2: it's called Safe and it's starring Julianne Moore.

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Speaker 1: Do you know this movie? No, I had never heard

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 2: It's beautiful, first of all, it's like lots of pinks

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Speaker 2: and pastels and light turquoises, so pretty. But it is

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Speaker 2: basically sorry, I'm gonna spoil this movie. That's like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, it's twenty six years old.

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Speaker 1: What the fuck? Oh my god, it's as.

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Speaker 2: Old as my friends who didn't know about the Manson family.

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Speaker 2: But it's about a woman who's a housewife and she's

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Speaker 2: very unhappy in her housewife life starts exhibiting itself in

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Speaker 2: like she starts having physical symptoms basically, and she starts

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Speaker 2: having trouble breathing. She's like feeling like something's wrong. She

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Speaker 2: goes to the doctor. They're like, there's nothing wrong with you.

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Speaker 2: And it is such a well done portrayal of a

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Speaker 2: person who is lost, descending into this sort of obsessive paranoia,

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Speaker 2: and then finding a group that promises to have the solution,

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Speaker 2: and then that group being the thing that they think

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Speaker 2: is saving them.

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Speaker 1: It is so good.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it gets a little slow in the second half,

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Speaker 2: not gonna lie, but I was watching it and I

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Speaker 2: was like, wow, this feels so like ahead of its

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Speaker 2: time because it's really it's talking about chemicals and how

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Speaker 2: they are just chemicals everywhere, and this cult is very

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Speaker 2: focused on chemicals and your chemical sensitivity, and it feels

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Speaker 2: very new, agy it feels very modern and it feels

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Speaker 2: very realistic, like I have seen it even in myself

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Speaker 2: and in people that I know, where we're like not

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Speaker 2: in a good moment in our lives psychologically, so there

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Speaker 2: starts to be some symptom that we fixate on. And

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Speaker 2: I could totally see, you know, if I didn't have

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Speaker 2: the mental health support that I have and the friends

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Speaker 2: that I have and like really trying to dive into

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Speaker 2: what's happening with me, I could totally see becoming so

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Speaker 2: fixated that it gets worse and worse.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would be looking to anyone for help.

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Speaker 2: And that's true of people who actually have real obviously,

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Speaker 2: that's not only true of people who have psychologically and

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Speaker 2: do symptoms, but people who have actual physical problems as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you've become desperate, and a group is like,

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Speaker 2: we have the answer, we know how to fix you.

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Speaker 2: Come be in our community, and also will provide the

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Speaker 2: love that your husband is not giving you in this sad, boring,

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Speaker 2: lonely housewife life that you have. Like, of course that's

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Speaker 2: going to be appealing to you. I mean, come on, yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 2: So I'm championing this movie everybody.

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Speaker 1: I think you should go watch it. I think it's

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Speaker 1: really good.

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Speaker 6: I'm gonna watch it. I'm gonna watch it tonight.

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Speaker 1: Good. I think you should go.

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Speaker 2: And Julianne Moore is a fantastic actress, which we all knew,

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Speaker 2: but she's just so good.

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Speaker 1: In this move.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god, I love her so much.

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Speaker 2: Me too, I had some health problems like at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of last year, and in retrospect, I was like

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Speaker 2: testing negative for what it was that I was convinced

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Speaker 2: that I have that. Doctors assumed that it was based

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Speaker 2: on my description of the symptoms, et cetera, but I

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Speaker 2: just kept testing negative, and in retrospect, I really do

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Speaker 2: think that part of it was this thing that was

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Speaker 2: going on for me emotionally in the relationship that I

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Speaker 2: was in, and I won't get into details about it,

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Speaker 2: but I do think it might have been partially psychosomatic.

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Speaker 2: And we know by now from what we've talked about

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Speaker 2: about placebos and also no cibos, which are the negative

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Speaker 2: side effects of placebos, that the symptoms can be really real,

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Speaker 2: like they physically manifest in a way that's that's legitimate.

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Speaker 6: It's wild how real they are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I'm like, was that in my head?

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Speaker 1: Or was it not? I don't know. Am I rambling

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Speaker 1: right now?

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Speaker 6: Yes?

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Speaker 1: No, that's okay.

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Speaker 6: Have you ever done somatic therapy?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 1: What's that?

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Speaker 5: It's kind of where you get into your body and

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Speaker 5: talk to that kind of psychosomatic stuff.

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Speaker 1: Wait, have you done it?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 5: I actually just got sent a therapist though that I

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Speaker 5: was going to maybe contact.

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Speaker 6: I'll send her your information.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, cool, that's actually interesting because like, I've been

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Speaker 2: thinking about placebo stuff a lot lately and like how

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Speaker 2: much just our state of mind about a particular thing

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Speaker 2: can impact the way that it affects us. And the

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Speaker 2: thought I keep going back to is like, but even

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Speaker 2: if we know that it's induced by our minds.

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Speaker 1: What do we do about it?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? What's the difference?

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Speaker 2: It doesn't stry right, Like if you're going to therapy,

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Speaker 2: And like I have friends who are like, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to therapy, I'm on antidepressants. Like, what else do

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Speaker 2: you want me to do if these symptoms are psychosomatic? Like,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing else? So I'm like, there has to be

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Speaker 2: some kind of like concrete thing that you do. And

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Speaker 2: all I can ever think of is affirmations. But I

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Speaker 2: don't fucking know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's cool. We'll google that later.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, do it all right?

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Speaker 2: Well that was the word vomit of the day. And

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Speaker 2: now now we should talk to Diane and Deborah, so

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Speaker 2: let's do it. Let's play them saying their own names

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Speaker 2: again real quick so we can identify whose voices.

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Speaker 3: Who's Hello, I'm Diane Lake and I'm Deborah Herman.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. And here we go.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Dennis Wilson from The Beach Boys.

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Speaker 4: It was kindable man, but he and Charlie really liked

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Speaker 4: each other. That was my impression. Dennis welcomed Charlie and

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Speaker 4: us into his house. We didn't just take over his

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Speaker 4: house from my point of view, because I did live there.

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Speaker 1: You lived at Dennis's house?

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Speaker 4: I lived, Yeah, I was one of the girls. That

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Speaker 4: lived at Dennis's and he sent a bunch of the

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Speaker 4: other girls to Mendocino to try to find some other

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Speaker 4: place for us to live. And so Charlie was teaching

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Speaker 4: Dennis how to play the guitar because Dennis was the drummer,

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Speaker 4: and the Beach Boys were kind of on the wayne.

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Speaker 4: They were out there looking for talent. You know, the

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Speaker 4: Beatles were big then the Beach Boys I think had

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Speaker 4: taken on, you know, some aspects of the Beatles music,

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Speaker 4: and they I think that the Beach Boys had gone

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Speaker 4: with the Maharishi. Oh yeah, the same guy that the

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Speaker 4: Beatles had meditated with, or you know, did the transspendence

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Speaker 4: meditation with. And Dennis was going through a divorce or

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Speaker 4: certainly a separation, and I think he had a child.

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Speaker 4: He was kind of looking for a guru, and I

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Speaker 4: don't think the Maharishi met his Probably the Maharishi was

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Speaker 4: a little bit too strict and Charlie, Charlie was like,

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Speaker 4: you know, let's take let's do drugs and more. That

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Speaker 4: was more Dennis's style of guru. So Dennis was kind

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Speaker 4: of a wild man, but he was you know, what

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Speaker 4: Charlie wanted me to make Dennis happy because Dennis was

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Speaker 4: having a hard time, and you know, I presented myself,

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Speaker 4: but he wasn't interested. And I think it's because I

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Speaker 4: was under age and Dennis was. He was brought up

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Speaker 4: that this was not okay.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's like the first story in your book

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Speaker 2: of a grown man not trying to sleep with this

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Speaker 2: young girl. So I mean I was like, oh, finally,

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Speaker 2: it's finally someone's not.

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Speaker 1: Like a predator. Yeah, what would you say?

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Speaker 2: Because I was trying to figure out where exactly the

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Speaker 2: downward spiral of Charlie's state of mind began, Like was

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Speaker 2: it because of sort of the music stuff, or like,

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Speaker 2: where do you think it really began?

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Speaker 3: You know, I think that there was a turning point

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Speaker 3: that we've kind of pinpointed because we came to the

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Speaker 3: conclusion that he was becoming progressively paranoid, psychotic, maybe even schizophrenic.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, there's I'm not obviously a doctor or psychologist,

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Speaker 3: but there was some turning point, which was more obvious

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Speaker 3: when the White Album came out, right, because one of

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Speaker 3: those symptoms of that kind of delusional thinking is hearing

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Speaker 3: something or seeing something and taking personal meaning as if

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Speaker 3: it were a message specifically for you, and that's very

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Speaker 3: common with psychosis, and a lot of people say that

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Speaker 3: there are theories that he was manipulating everyone during that

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Speaker 3: time at what they called the Yellow Submarine House when

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Speaker 3: Diane was there, but from hearing Diane's version of it

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Speaker 3: and the way he behaved, it really is convincing that

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Speaker 3: he was believing it right and internalizing it and not

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Speaker 3: just using it as a manipulation ploy right.

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Speaker 4: And he you know, we got introduced to Death Valley,

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Speaker 4: and then he'd heard stories about the Bottomless Pit and

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Speaker 4: then this race wars coming, and then the Beatles are

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Speaker 4: talking to him. He listened to that record backwards and

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Speaker 4: forwards and thought that they were you know, confirming or

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Speaker 4: offer his what he already was thinking. And you know,

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00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 4: he interpreted the songs to be, you know, that affirmation

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00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:13,080
Speaker 4: and confirmation that wow, that that was that was what

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Speaker 4: was going to happen. And so then the frenetic energy started,

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00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 4: you know, with dune buggies and guns and knives. It

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00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 4: was really preparing for this race war and for us

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Speaker 4: to escape to Death Valley and you know, find his

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Speaker 4: bottomless Pit. I think that kind of got added on

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Speaker 4: later on, and there are people even now. I think

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Speaker 4: there are people who believe that, you know, under the

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Speaker 4: polar ice caps or whatever, there's caverns where people, you know,

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Speaker 4: can live or do live. I don't, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've just you know, it's a crazy.

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Speaker 1: World and there's life.

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Speaker 4: People believe all gods are crazy things, and so, you know,

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Speaker 4: he that's what he had us looking for. We were,

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Speaker 4: you know, when we're out in the desert, even after

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Speaker 4: the murders, we were out there looking for the Bottomless Pit.

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Speaker 1: Oh I didn't know that, all right, I'm somehow missed that.

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Speaker 1: That's you guys.

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Speaker 3: Were they really really were.

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Speaker 2: So to clarify what the bottomless Pit is, Basically, there

369
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Speaker 2: was a passage in the Bible that made them believe

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Speaker 2: there was a society of chosen people living in the

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Speaker 2: center of the earth, where they would hide out as

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Speaker 2: the race war raged up above. Leslie van Houghten did

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Speaker 2: an interview in nineteen sixty nine and some of her

374
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 2: quotes were and so we read and it talked about

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Speaker 2: a hole in the desert or going to the Kingdom.

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Speaker 2: We started looking into the Death Valley was underneath Death Valley,

377
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 2: and we found out there was the Amargosa River and

378
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 2: blind fish and all kinds of things that just made

379
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Speaker 2: us believe that there was a whole world underneath and

380
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,639
Speaker 2: that some of Montezuma's people are already under there waiting

381
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 2: for us, and that what would happen is that about

382
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 2: a couple thousand of the Chosen people, white people would

383
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Speaker 2: go down to the center of the earth and stay

384
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Speaker 2: there for about fifty years. So that's what they were

385
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Speaker 2: looking for, was this bottomless pit.

386
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Speaker 4: That's when we you know, when the guys burnt the

387
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Speaker 4: road grader.

388
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 2: A road grader because I didn't know what road grader

389
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,200
Speaker 2: is is basically one of those big yellow construction equipment

390
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 2: trucks that uses a long blade to create a flat

391
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Speaker 2: surface on them.

392
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Speaker 4: Years because we had gone over you know, this mountain

393
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 4: or whatever and looking for the bottomless pit. Following these

394
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 4: we we'd go to all these different springs, wow, that

395
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 4: are out in the desert. And then when we came back,

396
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 4: we couldn't go over the same way we came because

397
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 4: there were all these rocks in the road, and so

398
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 4: the guys were able to clear them out and we

399
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 4: had like four wheel drives, Sony, but we got out

400
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 4: and then oh here's this road grader. That's all. That

401
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 4: was the culprit, you know, that was you know, had

402
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 4: best up the road and so the you know, the

403
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 4: guys decided to burn it. Well, the only thing that

404
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 4: would burn were the tires, you know, and they and

405
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 4: they used our precious gas right out of the tanks,

406
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Speaker 4: the tyres.

407
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 3: We left a match book.

408
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that was it was It was a match book.

409
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 4: I think it was a Ralph Orange match book. That

410
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 4: was the tie in that they found, you know, that

411
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,439
Speaker 4: they found at Barker Ram right, like, oh, these are

412
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 4: the guys. But I mean that was after the fact

413
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 4: because they were, you know, arresting us for what was it,

414
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 4: grand larceny I think for you know, but it was

415
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 4: because they had heard rumors about this family living, you know,

416
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 4: this group of people living up in the desert and

417
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 4: somebody was responsible for burning this road rader.

418
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 2: So, in essence, the members of the Manson family were

419
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,199
Speaker 2: not initially arrested for the murders at all. They were

420
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: arrested for this much smaller crime of burning the road grader.

421
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 2: For anyone who's not super familiar with the Manson family,

422
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: they might think, well, he just told them to commit

423
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: the murders. He didn't commit the murders. I mean, I

424
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 2: think everyone thinks he's a monster, but I also want

425
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 2: to just touch on the ways that he himself was

426
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 2: actually violent. It wasn't just that he was getting other

427
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: people to do it. He himself was violent. I mean,

428
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 2: first of all, he taught you how to kill someone

429
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 2: with a knife, right, like, or just how to do it.

430
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: Obviously he didn't do it, but right yeah, yeah, he's

431
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 2: like teaching everyone how to kill people. He not only

432
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 2: was advocating for violence and ordering killings, but also he

433
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: himself participated in injuring a couple of the murder victims.

434
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 2: He sexually assaulted you in a very very horrible way.

435
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: Was he violent with everyone?

436
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 4: You know? I don't know. Just like he was special,

437
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 4: he made everybody feel special. He probably was somewhat violent

438
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 4: or showed that edge, but it wasn't necessarily public.

439
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 3: Everybody was from the research, everybody was afraid of him

440
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 3: on some level, and even during the trial, some of

441
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 3: the support that he got was also out of intimidation,

442
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 3: and that's why he had his remaining acolytes helping during

443
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 3: the trial. I mean, he was throwing everybody under the

444
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,479
Speaker 3: bus so that he could possibly not get the death sentence.

445
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: There's a quote at the book that really just like

446
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 2: paints his evilness for me, or just at least his

447
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: abusiveness the first time he hit you.

448
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: Afterwards, this is a quote, he said.

449
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 2: To you, you needed me to do that, little one.

450
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: You have never had any man teach you when to

451
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 2: speak or when to be quiet. The man is the

452
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 2: head of the household, and you have never had a

453
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: man or a father. You will learn to be a woman.

454
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: And then he kissed your forehead after he like violently

455
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: struck you. I mean, what an evil, manipulative abuser I mean.

456
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 4: Right, but makes you feel made me feel like it

457
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 4: was my fault? Right?

458
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: Where have you heard that before, like in every domestic

459
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 3: violence situation?

460
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: Oh, exactly exactly, It's so classic.

461
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I really felt like he did have some control

462
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 4: because I never felt I never felt like I was

463
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 4: beaten in a rage.

464
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 6: Right.

465
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: That's almost scarier, so scarier, yeah.

466
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, because he was in control.

467
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 6: Right.

468
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

469
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 2: The combining an act of violence with like a sweet

470
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 2: little moment after and like twisting it to make you

471
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 2: think that you needed it or it's your fault. I mean,

472
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: it's just so so obscenely manipulative.

473
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: It breaks my heart.

474
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know.

475
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 2: All right, So he's starting to get wilder and wilder.

476
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: He's talking about helter skelter. This race War, he says,

477
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: is coming. I mean, there's a night where he starts

478
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: prophesying about the White Album by the Beatles, and it

479
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: sounded like that was the first time you like realized

480
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: he was really really serious, that the race War was

481
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 2: like really happening, and you had to go to the bathroom.

482
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,239
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that night?

483
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I you know, he had left me in

484
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 4: the desert with a few other people and I was

485
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 4: supposed to stay there, and then Bobby Bosaway came up

486
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: and he wanted a couple of girls, or he wanted

487
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 4: a girl to go with him to help him panhandle

488
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 4: money so he could get back to the ranch. Right,

489
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,719
Speaker 4: But the family wasn't really at the ranch anymore. They

490
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 4: were at this Gresham Street, which we called the Yellow

491
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 4: sub Marine House because it was a yellow, you know,

492
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 4: frame two story house. And the minute I left Death Valley,

493
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 4: I felt like I was a salmon swimming upstream or whatever.

494
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 4: I was going against the current. It was like I

495
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 4: just felt like the rocks and the trees were calling

496
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 4: out to me. You weren't supposed You're not supposed to

497
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 4: be doing this right. And when I showed up at

498
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 4: Gresham Street, Charlie was just furious. You know, what the

499
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 4: hell are you doing here? I told you to stay

500
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 4: in the desert. You know, it was like I'd walked

501
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 4: into a different group of people. I mean, not only

502
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 4: did he not want me, he says, and I'm going

503
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 4: to find your parents. You're going back to your parents. Now.

504
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 4: They're stealing volkswagens, converting them to dune buggies. The motorcycle

505
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 4: gang is heavily involved, you know, knives, guns. Susan Atkins

506
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 4: was in the back house with hepatitis, and you know,

507
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 4: we weren't allowed to go see her. And that's when

508
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 4: he was listening to the White album and playing it backwards.

509
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 4: And it was just like he wanted me to sit there.

510
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 4: And there were other people as well, but he played

511
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 4: it backwards, you know, and I had to go to

512
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 4: the bathroom. No you're gonna you know, you just stay

513
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 4: put right there. You're gonna listen to this, right, And

514
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 4: so I ended up peeing the rug, you know, peeing

515
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 4: on the rug and then he I think he was

516
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 4: mad about that, and he ended up that was the

517
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 4: most outrageous, you know, the most inrage I had ever

518
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 4: seen him, but like he broke a chair and then

519
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 4: he hit me with the chair leg, with the broken

520
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 4: chair leg, And there were all the experiences where he

521
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 4: would hold my finger over a candle flame because we

522
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 4: weren't supposed to feel pain, you know, that that was

523
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 4: just a you know, a mind thing that we could

524
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 4: turn off. And he did go find my parents, and

525
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 4: he did take me back there, but then they were

526
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 4: like they were being boarding parents of an alternative high school,

527
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: and so they had a house full of kids my

528
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 4: same age, basically with a rich, alternative kind of parents.

529
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 4: And I just felt, you know, I'd been with Charlie

530
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 4: and had been brainwashed enough because i'd been in the

531
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 4: you know, the desert. I mean, we were in full swing,

532
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: and I just felt like a crazy person and I

533
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 4: just didn't fit. And my mom's with another and my

534
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 4: dad's there too, but she's living with another man who

535
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 4: became her husband, you know, but at that point they

536
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 4: weren't married. But still it was just like bah, you know,

537
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 4: I just I felt crazy and I just wanted to,

538
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 4: like climb on the roof and spew out all Charlie's songs.

539
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 4: You know, live in a you live in a garbage

540
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 4: dump and get your game on girl and all, you know,

541
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 4: just whatever songs were in my head, I just wanted

542
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 4: to get on the roof and sing them out. And

543
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 4: so I ended up getting myself back there, back to Gresham,

544
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 4: because it really they were just It turned out they

545
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 4: were just a couple of miles apart. And then he

546
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 4: took me to Gary Hinman's. He really did not want

547
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 4: me there. I was a big liability. So he took

548
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 4: me to Gary Hinman's and I stayed with Gary for

549
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: you know, a week or something, and then I didn't

550
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 4: want to stay there either, and so he took me

551
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: back to Spawn Ranch. But we really weren't living there,

552
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 4: but there was another commune living there, and so I

553
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 4: went there. You know, I stayed with them and for

554
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 4: a couple of nights or whatever, but it was just

555
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: and then I think I ended up taking acid with

556
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 4: them and going to see the Barbara Ella movie, which

557
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 4: scared the heck out of me. And then they took

558
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 4: me somebody else's house and I was hearing voices, you know,

559
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 4: just stay where you are until your father comes to

560
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 4: get you. But at that point it was like, well,

561
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 4: who is my father? You know, my father, chance, my

562
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 4: real father, father, God or Charlie. I really didn't know,

563
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: and I think that they I think they must have

564
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 4: gotten hold of Charlie and then you know, they took

565
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 4: me back. I was always on the outside after that.

566
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: What was interesting to me is that as we explored

567
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: her story, there were many times where Diane was really

568
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: facing her own mortality, whether she was going to die

569
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: because of an accident or by her own hand. There

570
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: were times that she just needed to escape. And yet

571
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: it really is a very spiritual story because she always

572
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: felt the presence of God and for some reason, it

573
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: just never happened. And in a way, she was a

574
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: witness because even though Manson kept trying to get rid

575
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 3: of her, she was there because who would believe this?

576
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: And she was there to see the systematic brainwashing. Why

577
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: even though people to this day are saying, well, he

578
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: didn't actually kill someone. Well, first of all, I'm an attorney,

579
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: and I studied the twenty thousand pages of that transcript,

580
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: and that's why we also did the book inside the

581
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: manson jury with the manuscript from the jury foreman. So

582
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: that was fascinating, But for him, it wouldn't have happened.

583
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And a typical whether it's a sociopath or psychopath,

584
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: I don't Again, I'm not a psychologist, but typically they

585
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: do get other people to get their hands dirty. They're

586
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: like puppet masters. So even though the people love conspiracy

587
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: theories where they say, well, you know, they say that

588
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: he shouldn't have been sent to jail and everything else,

589
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: none of this would have happened except for his manipulation

590
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: and his vision. Am I correct, Diane?

591
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well he sent them, he sent

592
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: them and he primed them. Yeah, I mean, because he

593
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,239
Speaker 4: would send the girls out and texts and I don't know,

594
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: Bruce or whoever on these creepy crawling missions.

595
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: Oh yes, talk about those.

596
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were dressed in black and they would go

597
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 4: and they would just break into people's homes, sneak around,

598
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 4: rearrange the furniture, eat some of the food, leave a

599
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 4: window open, you know.

600
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: I mean, just just terrifying.

601
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 4: People out is my understanding. You know, it was kind

602
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 4: of like a game. It was.

603
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 6: It was a game.

604
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 4: But see he was priming them right, you know. And

605
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 4: I was never invited, thankfully, to go on that. I

606
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 4: think the second night he told him write something witchy,

607
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: you know, and he was involved in the Hindman thing.

608
00:31:54,320 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 4: He really cowed Bobby into taking care of the problem,

609
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 4: you know. But I think Charlie was the one that

610
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 4: cut off his ear, you know, in the middle of

611
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 4: it all. So it was an escalation, you know. And

612
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 4: Charlie thought he had killed that black panther or whoever

613
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 4: he was, that Bernard Crow. He thought he'd killed him,

614
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 4: and he was scared.

615
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 3: It turned out he hadn't killed him, but he shot

616
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: it and he wasn't actually a black panther, oh okay,

617
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: But but he thought he thought all of.

618
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 4: Those things, right, Yeah, he thought all of those things,

619
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 4: so he was you know, I mean, and like you said,

620
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 4: he gave us all of us girls had buck knives

621
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 4: and he showed us how to use it. But when

622
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 4: I remember that lesson, and I remember thinking, oh, it's

623
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 4: a mind it's another one of those mind games. Because

624
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 4: you had to be willing to do things in order

625
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 4: to not do them. It was really very manipulative thinking, right, well,

626
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 4: you know, like you don't need food. You know, you

627
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 4: don't feel pain. If you don't want to be killed,

628
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 4: you've got to be willing to kill someone. I mean,

629
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 4: just like all these you know, everything was like a

630
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: mind manipulation game with him, so he I think, didn't

631
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 4: they they show that he had actually, like to the Lobbyancas,

632
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 4: he'd gone and tied them up and then told the

633
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: girls and text to go in there and do whatever.

634
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 4: I mean, it was just like, oh, it's horrible, it's horrible.

635
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 4: So he it was very much involved. Like like dev said,

636
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 4: it would not have happened.

637
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 6: Of course, it would not.

638
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: Have happened without Charlie's brainwashing and his manipulation. I mean,

639
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: if I take my mind back to you know, the

640
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: early days, I can't think of any of them doing that,

641
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 4: but especially especially Patty of all the people, I mean,

642
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 4: Susan Atkins was much more worldly.

643
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 3: Well, I think people associate Susan is maybe having walked

644
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 3: on the dark side because she was involved with Anton. Yeah,

645
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 3: the Satan, the Church of s Church of Satan, thank you,

646
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 3: but again one does not lead to the other and

647
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 3: wouldn't have meant that she would have.

648
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: Done that, and they don't actually believe it. In satan. Also,

649
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: there's no.

650
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 4: Way, there's no way that you could do those murders

651
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 4: on a hallucinogenic There's no way in my experience, taking hallucinogenics,

652
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: you know, marijuana or LSD, there's no way that you

653
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 4: could take a life. I mean, you rescue flies out

654
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 4: of the pool, you know, I mean, right, because that's

655
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 4: what the whole trip is about. You watch trees grow.

656
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 4: I mean, you just see life everywhere. Everything is breathing.

657
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 4: And there's no way you could take a life on LSD.

658
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 4: That I mean, it's probably happened, but I just can't fatho. Yeah,

659
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 4: I mean, I just from my and that's all I

660
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 4: have to go on is my experience.

661
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 2: He was systematically preparing everybody to cause a lot of harm.

662
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 2: And when you talk about like him talking about how

663
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: you don't need food and you don't really feel pain,

664
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: like to me, this is someone who's priming you all

665
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: to disconnect from how you really feel all the time.

666
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: So if your moral compass is in there, you're being

667
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 2: taught over and over and over again while on drugs

668
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: from this man who you believe has the power to

669
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 2: get whatever he wants, not to trust your own body

670
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: not to trust what you feel inside of you and

671
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: put all of your trust in what he is telling you.

672
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: This is like a systematic, long process. It's not like

673
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: you join the group and then boom, we're going and

674
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 2: going to murder some people the next day.

675
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 4: I mean, like, yeah, exactly. And I mean he isolated

676
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 4: us from our parents. You know, for me maybe because

677
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 4: I was under age, but you know, don't don't look

678
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 4: out the window. You know, if I'm in the car,

679
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 4: don't look out the windows, don't get my picture taken.

680
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 4: Even though he tried to get me back to my parents,

681
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 4: he didn't really want us to honor our parents. Yeah,

682
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 4: it was like forget. I mean I think even some

683
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 4: of the words to the songs were, you know, forget

684
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 4: your parents, move on. Right.

685
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: It's a closed I forgot what the term. There's like

686
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: a cult term.

687
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: It's like like a closed system or something like that where, yeah,

688
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: all the information comes from within, there's no it's called

689
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: alternative sources.

690
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: Allowed recirculating the same water.

691
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: Well, can you talk to us about when you first

692
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: learned that they had committed these horrific murders.

693
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 4: I actually was at Spawn Ranch. Leslie had come in.

694
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 4: I woke me up because she was burning stuff in

695
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 4: the fireplace smelled horrible. And then some a car came

696
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 4: down the driveway and she put it out and said,

697
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 4: don't let those you know, don't let those guys see me.

698
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 4: You know that I'm here. And they were looking for

699
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 4: her because she told me that they had just given

700
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 4: her a ride from Griffith Park. Right whether it was

701
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 4: either that afternoon or the next day that I got

702
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 4: whisked off to Olanchia and text was there at Olanchia

703
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 4: and I was supposed to wait there with Texts, and

704
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 4: there was another kid until the rest of the family

705
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 4: joined us, and then from there we would all head

706
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 4: up to Death Valley. And it really took a group

707
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 4: to get up to Death Valley because we had to

708
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 4: move rocks and you know, to get the vehicles up

709
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 4: this goal or wash, which was well deb can tell

710
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 4: you she Jeff drove it and it's very remote.

711
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 3: He did not want them found.

712
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 4: And so we were there a couple of days, and

713
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 4: I think the second day, I went looking for food

714
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 4: in the dumpster of the little mini mart that was

715
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 4: on three ninety five, and I got picked up by

716
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 4: the sheriff, you know, for being transient or a runaway

717
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 4: or whatever, because I didn't have any ID, and you know,

718
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 4: he didn't think I looked twenty one. So they took

719
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 4: me to Independence, to the jail, and I had been

720
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 4: arrested in Ventura County with a fake ID. And so

721
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 4: you know, this is back before digital and Wi Fi

722
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 4: and computers and stuff. So they just called Ventura County

723
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,959
Speaker 4: and they confirmed it. Yes, they had arrested a Diane

724
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 4: bustein you know, age, blah blah blah.

725
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: Birthday, your fake name. Yeah, so they let me go.

726
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, my fake name. And so they let me go,

727
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 4: and the arresting officer actually took me to his home

728
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 4: because I had a really bad sunburn. Took me to

729
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 4: his home, you know, it showered, I slept on their couch.

730
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 4: They dressed my sunburn, gave me clothes and a hat,

731
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 4: you know, and money, and he took me back to

732
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 4: where he picked me up. So I went from there.

733
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 4: I went back to the little ranch that we were

734
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 4: staying at and there's texts just frantic, you know, where

735
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 4: have you been? And he's got a newspaper headlines, you know,

736
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 4: Tate LaBianca whatever it said, you know, it was was

737
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 4: big headlines about these unsolved murders, and he slapped the

738
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 4: paper and he said, I did this. Charlie told me

739
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 4: to and that's when I found out. So that was

740
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 4: it was like, what you know? And now I'm really scared.

741
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 4: And to think I'd just been in custody. Yeah, if

742
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 4: I'd known before that, I wouldn't have come back. I

743
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 4: would have.

744
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: But now you're with him. So what did you what's

745
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: going through your mind? What did that feel like?

746
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 4: I was shocked. I was shocked, like the rug had

747
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 4: been pulled out from under me. I mean, you know,

748
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 4: my relationship with Charlie and the family had been a

749
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 4: little tenuous over the last few months anyway, but this

750
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 4: was like the last I just really could not wrap

751
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 4: my head around that they really did this, really, Patty,

752
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 4: you know, Susan, I just I couldn't. I couldn't believe.

753
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 4: But I was scared. It's like, gosh, if he could

754
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 4: do that, I better, you know, I better do what

755
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 4: he says. And so then the rest of the family

756
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 4: came and we all went up to the desert, and then,

757
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 4: you know, there was really no escaping once I got

758
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 4: up there, although two of the girls did escape. Two

759
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 4: girls did take off and they did make it. Oh

760
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 4: they were together. But Charlie had us beating the bushes

761
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 4: for these girls in the night, and I felt in

762
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 4: my heart that if if we had found them, that

763
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 4: they would have been killed. I really did. And then

764
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 4: it was like, I don't know, at some point up

765
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 4: in the desert, you know, within a couple of weeks,

766
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 4: we took acid and we were on the run. You know,

767
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 4: we were not at Barker Ranch. We were you know,

768
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: every night we'd go off, you know, pretty or at

769
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 4: night we'd be at the Barker Ranch and then during

770
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 4: the day we'd be off somewhere else. But there was

771
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: this place I think it was Willow Springs that the

772
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 4: girls told me, Leslie, Susan and Patty Whoa. They told

773
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 4: me personally their participation, and what stuck with me was

774
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 4: their demeanor like proud, proud, gleeful. I mean it was gleeful.

775
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 4: They were giddy. They were giddy about it. You know.

776
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 4: It was like, oh, we did the you know, we

777
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: did this. But Charlie, you know, it was like, oh,

778
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 4: helter skelter. I was like, oh, it was sickening. It

779
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 4: was horrible, it really was, and it was scary, and

780
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 4: I just I couldn't. I mean, these are gals that

781
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 4: I'd made love with, you know, that I've had, you know,

782
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 4: participated in sex with, and they were my you know,

783
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 4: they were my friends and my sisters really even though

784
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 4: you know, I wasn't maybe best friends with them, but

785
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 4: they were still part of the family, you know, and

786
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 4: I just I couldn't believe it.

787
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: I just Oh, I think I remember reading that one

788
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: of them said that she was debating whether or not

789
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: to kill Sharon Tate's baby.

790
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 4: No, that was Susan Atkins. She was contemplating saving the baby,

791
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 4: cutting the baby out, and rescuing it. And what stopped

792
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 4: her probably Texts, I don't remember, because I think it

793
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 4: was just probably super frantic and Texts was kind of

794
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 4: in charge, and I'm sure he just told her to

795
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 4: do something else or what, you know, just get it

796
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 4: done or whatever. But she told me Sharon was begging

797
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 4: to spare her baby's life. Oh no, just the story

798
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 4: is so sad, I mean on so many different levels, sad, terrifying, diabolical,

799
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 4: just yeah, so much wrong. I mean, it's so wrong,

800
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 4: it's all so wrong. And then the reasons, the reasons

801
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 4: that it was done. Is even It's craziness is really

802
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 4: what it is. It's just it's just like whoo, off

803
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 4: the chart, like they went off the deep end, off

804
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 4: the deep end, but it was all because of Charlie's beliefs,

805
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 4: and they've had to live with that their whole life.

806
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 5: Did they change kind of how they felt about what

807
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 5: had happened?

808
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 4: I think at some point you know, in their life, Yeah, no,

809
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 4: they they I think they have definitely have misgivings and

810
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 4: the worse, you know, whether or not the parole board

811
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 4: they can get that across sufficiently, you know, to have

812
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 4: been released or not, that's another, but I feel it

813
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 4: in my heart for sure they have to once they

814
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 4: came down off of that manipulation mind control of Charlie's oh,

815
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 4: I mean, and so they've had to live with that

816
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 4: for you know what, over fifty years, I mean a

817
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 4: long a long, long, long time.

818
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: Deep programming or you know, sort of waking up from

819
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: indoctrination is always an intense, earth shattering, insanely difficult process.

820
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: But I cannot fathom adding murder into that, Like, how

821
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: can you even face that you did that for your

822
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: cult leader?

823
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just unbelievable.

824
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 4: Right, I know.

825
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about your journey afterward and how

826
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: you sort of began to wake up?

827
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 4: Well, while I was in the jail County, you know,

828
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 4: all the girls were in one cell together and the

829
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 4: guys were in another cell together.

830
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: So you'd gotten arrested for something unrelated. Right, just for

831
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 2: context for everybody.

832
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 4: Right, I had been arrested along with the rest of

833
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 4: the family for this grand larceny, for burning this road grader.

834
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 4: The girls, all, you know, were admonishing me or threatening

835
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 4: me or whatever. Don't you know, don't say anything about anything,

836
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 4: and you know, so I didn't even tell him how

837
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 4: old I was, or my real name or anything. And

838
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 4: we were arrested in October, and it wasn't until I

839
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 4: mean Susan had anyway. So good food, although we were

840
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 4: we were all throwing up a lot of our food

841
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 4: because we didn't want to get fat in there, you know,

842
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 4: because we were eating a lot more food than wherever

843
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 4: used to do. Wow, So good food, no drugs, reading

844
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 4: because not a lot to do. We played gin Rummy

845
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 4: in other card games and I started reading and then

846
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 4: I over I remember overhearing a couple of the matrons

847
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 4: say something. You know, they were talking to each other

848
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 4: and they were, you know, like, oh those poor girls,

849
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 4: they're never going to amount to anything, or they're never

850
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 4: going to come back from this or whatever they said

851
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: made me like what perk up? Look around and it

852
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 4: was like, oh my gosh, you know, I got to

853
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 4: get out of here. You know, I don't know what, yeah,

854
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 4: you know, it's just like it's like I woke up,

855
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 4: you know, I took stock of my situation. I didn't

856
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 4: like it. And it was shortly after that that when

857
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 4: Susan had started blabbing in LA that they did a

858
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 4: grand jury indictment and they sent all of us girls

859
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 4: up to LA And it wasn't until I stood in

860
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 4: front of the bailiff about ready to go in to

861
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 4: testify in front of the grand jury when they, you know,

862
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 4: perfunctorily said, you know what name age? You know all

863
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 4: that birthday? And I told them the truth. I said,

864
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 4: I'm dying Lake, I'm sixteen, and I want my mommy.

865
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 5: And I did.

866
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 4: It was just like and that was the first time

867
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 4: that I had felt safe enough just to tell them

868
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 4: that right, safe enough and sane enough because the other

869
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 4: girls weren't around you know they because we were one

870
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 4: at a time to go in there. And then I

871
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 4: went in and lied. You know, it was just like

872
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 4: come on, I just one little crack, you know, and

873
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 4: then you know, then the fears, you know, the fears

874
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 4: from the girls. You know, I'm gonna go anyway. So

875
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 4: I'm sixteen in a women's jail, right, So they quickly

876
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 4: isolated me. And then when we went back to Inyo County,

877
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 4: I had every cold case attorney detective in California and

878
00:47:54,520 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: beyond interviewing me. And I'd been through a that interview

879
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 4: at whatever the name of the you know, the women's

880
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 4: jail is in Los Angeles. I mean, they threatened the

881
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 4: gas chamber and they knew I was involved, and you know,

882
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 4: they interrogated me for hours, and it was it was

883
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 4: really scary, and so you know, I just wanted to

884
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 4: tell the truth. It was probably in December, well it

885
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 4: was in December that we went to the grand jury.

886
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 4: But then when I came back, they made me They

887
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 4: quickly made me a ward of the court and sent

888
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 4: me to Patent State Hospital for a psychiatric evaluation for

889
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 4: ninety days, which then turned into like eight months. Oh wow,

890
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 4: And I think it's because they didn't know what to

891
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 4: do with me, you know, they didn't want me to

892
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 4: go back to my parents. And I quickly came into myself.

893
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 4: I mean, I wasn't hearing voices anymore, and you know,

894
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 4: I stopped throwing up my food, mostly because I saw

895
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 4: another gallon there who was Billimi or anorexic, and she

896
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 4: was just a bag of bones, literally, and that's why

897
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 4: she was there. She was there because she had a

898
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 4: really severe eating disorder. And so I was like, uh uh,

899
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 4: all right, I'm not doing this anymore. And then my

900
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:20,720
Speaker 4: arresting officer from Death Valley he saw something worth saving

901
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 4: in me and he took me in as a foster child.

902
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 4: So I went back to Inio County and I lived

903
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 4: there for the you know, until I turned eighteen. I'd

904
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 4: had my seventeenth birthday in the hospital, and I had

905
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 4: all these moms, you know, the nurses, I had, a psychiatrist,

906
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 4: a psychologist. I had friends. I had gals that I met,

907
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 4: you know, on the receiving ward. They kept me on

908
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 4: the receiving ward. They didn't transfer me to you know,

909
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 4: the you know, the drug ward or the teen ward.

910
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 4: They had all these different wards. So the receiving ward

911
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 4: would kind of evaluate. Even then they'd farm you out

912
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 4: to the different, you know, more specialized units. They didn't

913
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 4: they didn't farm me out to those. So I stayed

914
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 4: there for the whole eight months with the same nurses

915
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 4: and doctors. And it was really a very nurturing time.

916
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I think mental health was being administered appropriately

917
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 4: back then. That was back in the you know, the

918
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 4: late sixties.

919
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 6: I thank god.

920
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. I learned how to play the flute there, wow.

921
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 4: And I learned how to crochet, and I went to church.

922
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 4: You know, it was I remember it being a good

923
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 4: experience and I learned a lot about I had a

924
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 4: friend who came in several times in the course of

925
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 4: the months that I was there as an alcoholic, so

926
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 4: I kind of I saw what happens to you know,

927
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 4: you drink too much, you get addicted to that, you know,

928
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 4: and the bolimia, and so it was a good you know,

929
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 4: it was a good experience. And then you know, like

930
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 4: I said, my arresting officer took me into his home

931
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,479
Speaker 4: and helped me get through the trial. Was good.

932
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 3: There was another advantage that was coincidental. The head of

933
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 3: the unit, the program at Patton State at the time

934
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 3: was someone who was specializing in this newly developed problem

935
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 3: of LSD use among young people, and so he was

936
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 3: very focused on helping her to heal and to regain

937
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 3: you know, her personality in her in herself. So it

938
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 3: was very fortunate that you wound up there. Yeah, very

939
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 3: progressive program.

940
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:37,919
Speaker 6: Thank god.

941
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 4: I feel very fortunate that they sent me there. And

942
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 4: even though you know, I was embarrassed for along with

943
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 4: being part of the Manson family, embarrassed to tell anybody

944
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 4: that I had been in a mental institution, but it

945
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 4: was it was a good experience.

946
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: You know, and that's amazing.

947
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 4: My parents, you know, my parents weren't together anymore, and

948
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 4: you know, my mom had a new baby, you know,

949
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 4: with with her husband, her new husband, and you know,

950
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 4: my dad was off, I don't know, baking in New

951
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: York or something. I mean, he became a baker. Then

952
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 4: he became a cabinet maker, but not said he was baked, right,

953
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 4: but anyway, I mean, so it was like, you know,

954
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 4: I really didn't have any roots, and the Manson family

955
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 4: was looking for me because even when even when I

956
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 4: got out.

957
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 3: You had a lot of protection. I've actually been reading

958
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,439
Speaker 3: some of the hospital records, and they did not want

959
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 3: her parents to visit.

960
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: With her, really for her.

961
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you remember that, Diane. They didn't want you

962
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 3: to go home with your parents.

963
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 4: Oh? No, they didn't want me to go home there. Yeah,

964
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 4: and I and they did come and visit a couple

965
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 4: of times. But you know, maybe that was discouraged and

966
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 4: I just didn't I didn't know it. They might have

967
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 4: discouraged them, but I think that you know my family,

968
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 4: my mom and you know her husband, they're still hippies, right,

969
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 4: you know, they didn't really have the resources or the

970
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 4: fortitude or you know, they couldn't provide me with the

971
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 4: kind of home that they would have maybe released me too.

972
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 4: So it was you know, it was probably a good move.

973
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: So how long after this initial arrest did the trial happen?

974
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 4: It was probably.

975
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 2: A year later, Okay, So you were already out of

976
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: the institution at that point.

977
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 4: Oh well, when we were a rescue restaurant October okay,

978
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 4: and then I probably went into the hospital. The grand

979
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 4: jury happened in December. After that October. I was probably

980
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 4: put in the hospital in January, and I got out

981
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 4: like end of August, so in time to go to

982
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 4: school start school in Inyo County in September, and then

983
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 4: it was the following I think January or December. I

984
00:53:58,600 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 4: was seventeen.

985
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 3: Were actually the last witness, with the exception of your

986
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 3: doctors who would validate that you were capable of being

987
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: a witness testifying Yeah, Thursday, November fifth, you were witness

988
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 3: number eighty one on the list. Miss Diane Elizabeth Lake,

989
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 3: age seventeen, alias Diane Bluestein, sometimes called Snake by the

990
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 3: family members. You joined the group at the age of fourteen.

991
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 3: The witness told of the conversation with Leslie Van Houghton

992
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 3: at Willow Springs and Death Valley when they were both

993
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 3: family members. Miss ben Houghton told Diane that she had

994
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: stabbed someone who was already dead, that she didn't want

995
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 3: to do it, but she did it anyway. She said

996
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 3: that ben Houghton told her that she wiped fingerprints around

997
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 3: the rooms of the LaBianca home in the night of

998
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 3: the murders. So that's direct quote from her testimony and

999
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 3: notes taken by the jury foreman is inside the mansengery.

1000
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 3: And also what's interesting that people don't realize is Diane

1001
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 3: was brought in to talk with an attorney before she

1002
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 3: was going to testify, and was warned that she could

1003
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 3: be charged with being an accessory and also charged with perjury,

1004
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 3: and she made the decision at age seventeen that she

1005
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 3: was going to testify because it was more important to

1006
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 3: her to tell the truth. So she's my hero.

1007
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sam, that is amazing.

1008
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 4: Well, I just I guess I just believe that the

1009
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 4: truth would prevail.

1010
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Were you afraid to testify?

1011
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, I definitely was. And you know, I

1012
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 4: was afraid. I didn't want to be charged with perjury. Yeah,

1013
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 4: but I was mostly afraid that I was going to

1014
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 4: have to face Charlie. Yeah, because I wasn't hearing his

1015
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 4: voice anymore, and I was afraid that I was going

1016
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 4: to hear his voice and that he was gonna, you know,

1017
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 4: tell me to I don't know, say something that wasn't

1018
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 4: the truth. But I went in there and one of

1019
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 4: the first questions was, you know, did you love Charlie?

1020
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 4: And it was like, yeah, I did, you know? I

1021
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 4: guess so, And Charlie just jumps up and says, don't

1022
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 4: put it all on mister Manson. She loved everybody. Oh wow,

1023
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 4: that made me, you know, and I didn't hear his voice.

1024
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 4: I mean I heard his real voice, right, I didn't

1025
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 4: hear like some funny business going on in my brain.

1026
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 4: It just made me see him for the clown that

1027
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 4: he was, you know, the actor or the court gesture,

1028
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 4: and that.

1029
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 3: He didn't really care about anyone but himself exactly.

1030
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 4: He didn't even want to hear that I loved him.

1031
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 4: That meant nothing. That he was totally disconnecting himself from

1032
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 4: the family at that point.

1033
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: Right, Oh yeah, he just sounds just completely.

1034
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 4: Yea. Yeah. I've met a few younger people who were

1035
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 4: maybe ten, you know, on their paper routes, and Charlie

1036
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 4: was the boogeyman. Charlie was the guy behind him when

1037
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 4: they were picking up their newspapers and delivering them in

1038
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 4: the you know, pre dawn or dawn. You know, it

1039
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 4: was Charlie. Yeah. No, Charlie had put the fear of

1040
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 4: God in a lot.

1041
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: Of people, the whole country.

1042
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it was a major shift in our society.

1043
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 3: That's why people are still talking about it today, mesmerized

1044
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 3: and analyzing it and reading about it because there's this

1045
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 3: a very significant turning point. Just like we can say,

1046
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 3: what was the world like before nine to eleven or

1047
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 3: before twenty twenty, exactly before.

1048
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 4: The capital riots. Now, I mean it's just like woo.

1049
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 3: So there are those times in our mutual experience that

1050
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 3: shift our thinking in our way of life.

1051
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: People think of it as sort of the end of

1052
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 2: the innocent era of the sixties.

1053
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: Kind of is that sort of what it was?

1054
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 4: I think it should put the brakes on the hippie

1055
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 4: alternative lifestyle being as innocent or as it really was

1056
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 4: to a great extent.

1057
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: Or as I should say, like optimistic or.

1058
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 3: Nile of content. Yes, of course some of it was

1059
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 3: beautifully innocent, and I always considered Diane a true flower

1060
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 3: child in a major weeds, you know. But there were

1061
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 3: things that we're moving in a direction of.

1062
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 4: Let's just say, debauchery, right right, But that's always existed,

1063
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 4: I mean, as now you know that the Me Too

1064
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 4: movement has exposed, you know, and it keeps exposing. You know,

1065
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 4: how much pedophilia and sex trafficking. It's rampant, you know,

1066
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 4: And I think it always has been. It's just with

1067
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 4: the media and more women coming forth and saying enough

1068
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 4: is enough.

1069
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like to unknow some of this stuff.

1070
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, how long was the process of like actually

1071
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 2: really fully being out of it and like no longer believing,

1072
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 2: Like was it really that fast that it happened within

1073
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 2: those two months or like how long did it take

1074
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 2: mentally emotionally?

1075
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it was probably about a year because even

1076
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 4: then when I started going to college, I was naive.

1077
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 4: I didn't even really know until we started writing this

1078
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 4: book that the family they were still together at the

1079
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 4: Spawn Ranch. I didn't know. I didn't know that. I mean,

1080
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 4: I just so people got arrested, they were convicted of

1081
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 4: these murders, and that, you know, that was the end

1082
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 4: of it.

1083
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think murder would be a solid line in

1084
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: the sand, but no, yeah.

1085
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, And so I didn't even you know,

1086
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 4: I didn't fear for my life until I was staying

1087
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 4: at a friend's house while I was going to college,

1088
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 4: and you know, some scrappy looking guys came to the

1089
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 4: door and were looking for me. And my now husband

1090
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 4: was the one that answered the door because he was

1091
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 4: a friend of my friend Mary, and they were looking

1092
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 4: for Diane Lake or Snake, and so he like, shoot

1093
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:39,919
Speaker 4: me so they wouldn't see me. And then he told

1094
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 4: him to get out of there and then he said,

1095
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 4: you know, you're hot, you're wanted, you're being sought after.

1096
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 4: You need to get out of town. And so he

1097
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 4: invited me to come and live with him and Spokane,

1098
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 4: you know, when school was out, which I did, and

1099
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 4: then we decided to go to Europe, and so we

1100
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 4: ended up being in Europe for two years. But that

1101
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 4: all was, that was all a good thing and a

1102
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 4: god thing, I think, because it totally removed me from

1103
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 4: even thinking about it and my mom. I wrote my

1104
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 4: mom these huge, long, ten twenty page letters from Europe

1105
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 4: and she saved them and I've read most of them

1106
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 4: now and I never I never mentioned I never referred

1107
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 4: to being in the family. No, I just like I

1108
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 4: put it behind me, was like this skeleton in my closet.

1109
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 4: That it really didn't come to the service until like

1110
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 4: two thousand and nine when Paul Dosky called me and said,

1111
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 4: you know, my cadaver dog has alerted to human remains

1112
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 4: up at Barker Ranch, and I have permission to dig

1113
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 4: where he alerted and if we find human remains, You're

1114
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 4: going to be right back in the middle of it,

1115
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 4: because we feel like you told Jack Gardner that was

1116
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 4: my you know, my foster father, my arresting officer that

1117
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 4: there were bodies buried up there. I don't remember there

1118
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 4: be bodies up there, but there were people that would

1119
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 4: come and go up there, and so I probably I

1120
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 4: probably said there could be, right, I don't know, there

1121
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 4: could be, but that's that was enough information. And so

1122
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 4: they did dig and they didn't find bodies, and so

1123
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 4: it never came out. But that was the instigator for

1124
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 4: me to tell my children. My husband knew, but I

1125
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 4: had to tell the kids because it was like, oh, gosh,

1126
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 4: if they find you know, if they find human remains

1127
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 4: and this all gets you know, dug up again. You know.

1128
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 4: I didn't want them to find out that way.

1129
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, of course, you know.

1130
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 4: I told him, but they were you know, my youngest

1131
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 4: was probably in high school and he didn't find out

1132
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 4: until later, but the oldest one was in college. You know.

1133
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 4: My daughter was living at home, but she was out

1134
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 4: of high school.

1135
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 3: I also think that what you may be asking is emotionally,

1136
01:02:54,560 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 3: whether there were still emotional repercussions or trauma. And from

1137
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 3: where I'm sitting as Diane's collaborator, I think going through

1138
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 3: the process and the journey of writing her book and

1139
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 3: telling her story. I think there was a lot of

1140
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 3: buried trauma and yeah, major tentacles that remained that you

1141
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 3: really worked through, Diane. I mean now you're successfully married again.

1142
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 3: You had lost your husband and.

1143
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 4: Now you're remarried.

1144
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 3: From what I experienced with you, I don't know that

1145
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 3: you would have really been ready had you not, you know,

1146
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 3: unpacked and faced what had really happened.

1147
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, it was very cathartic, and I so give

1148
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 4: glory to God for preserving me through it all. And

1149
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 4: you know where I pretty much came out with my

1150
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 4: brain intact, you know, and my psyche intact, and I

1151
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 4: was healed and I had good experiences from that healing.

1152
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 4: But then I was ashamed, you know, for many minutes years,

1153
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 4: I just totally I didn't unpack it, you know, other

1154
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 4: than the therapy that I got in the hospital. I

1155
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 4: did not seek out, you know, additional therapy. But I

1156
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 4: wanted to give glory to God for getting me through this.

1157
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 4: And once the process and then you know, led me

1158
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 4: to deb and we started unpacking it. And like she said,

1159
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 4: I didn't have any It was like probably looking in

1160
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 4: a like one of those old fashioned viewfinders. Yeah, you know,

1161
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 4: one little picture at a time, very dry and very

1162
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:34,919
Speaker 4: matter of fact, because I had like these little snapshots,

1163
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 4: and I had gotten a life coach, and she had

1164
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 4: me writing, you know, my memories. And that's basically all

1165
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 4: I had when I came to dev was a journal

1166
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 4: of what I considered to be chronological memories of my

1167
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 4: time through this counterculture, alternative lifestyle that led me through

1168
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,439
Speaker 4: the hog farm and to Charlie and then out of it,

1169
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 4: you know. So the whole process has been very therapeutic

1170
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 4: and very cathartic for me to I still have a

1171
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 4: little cringe, you know. Yeah, was that really me? Yes?

1172
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 4: It was. I can't really be proud of what I

1173
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 4: went through, but I can be thankful and I can

1174
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 4: be grateful that I got through it and that God

1175
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 4: helped me, and that maybe this story, my story can

1176
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 4: help others, you know, and maybe give hope to parents

1177
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 4: or sisters you know that have friends and family going

1178
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 4: through similar because there's still a lot of men and

1179
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 4: women out there who are manipulating for greed or what

1180
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 4: you know, for their own delusionment about what life is

1181
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 4: and respect for people, and so but I came out

1182
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 4: of the other end. There is life at the end

1183
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 4: of the tunnel, and so you know, I hope that

1184
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 4: my story brings a little bit of light to this

1185
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:10,440
Speaker 4: very dark period of our history, and also it provides

1186
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 4: a little bit of hope for other people who are

1187
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 4: in a cult or are being even a battered wife.

1188
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 4: You know you're trapped. You know you're like you're trapped,

1189
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 4: and you really your whole experience is bound up in

1190
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 4: these parameters. You know all these rules you know that

1191
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,479
Speaker 4: you can't escape from.

1192
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I commend you for telling your story. I

1193
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: know that it is.

1194
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 2: It's so hard to overcome that shame, and especially with

1195
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 2: such a notorious case like this. I just think it's

1196
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 2: really amazing and I really respect you, and I think

1197
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,959
Speaker 2: the book is awesome and everyone should go buy it.

1198
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 3: It's called Member of the Family. Right now, there is

1199
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 3: a page for Inside the Manson Jury on Facebook. Where

1200
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 3: working on a website for Manson books and for Diane,

1201
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 3: but right now, that's probably the best place, And of

1202
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 3: course both books are available wherever books are.

1203
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: Sold, anywhere you buy your books.

1204
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 3: It was truly one of the best writing experiences of

1205
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 3: my tenure as an author, and I wish that everyone

1206
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 3: could write their own memoir because looking at your life

1207
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 3: from above it you. You know, what I found working

1208
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 3: with Diane was that we really made a lot of

1209
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 3: connections of things that you don't realize connect and it

1210
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 3: was a shared journey. I learned a lot about myself

1211
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 3: as well, and of course we've remained friends. And I'm

1212
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 3: glad that you liked the book. It was truly a

1213
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 3: wonderful journey.

1214
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you both so much. This has just

1215
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 1: been wonderful.

1216
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 2: Okay, that's the end of that. It was incredible. I'm

1217
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,439
Speaker 2: so glad they came on. How did we get so lucky?

1218
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: Megan? How did we get so lucky?

1219
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 6: I have no idea, but it's amazing. That was so interesting.

1220
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 1: I know.

1221
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 2: Well, I don't really have a question to ask you,

1222
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,439
Speaker 2: because I asked you last week and your answer was, yeah,

1223
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 2: if you were in Diane's position, you probably would have

1224
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 2: joined the group.

1225
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 1: And my answer is the same.

1226
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 2: If anyone's listening to this episode and not last episode,

1227
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 2: I don't know why you're doing that, you should probably

1228
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 2: listen to the last episode so you can hear our

1229
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 2: reasoning for why. I feel like I don't have any

1230
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 2: brilliant conclusions here, but gosh, that was such a crazy

1231
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 2: time in American history. I mean, there were murders happening

1232
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 2: all the time, like serial killers in the sixties and seventies.

1233
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 2: It seemed like constantly and this, and then of course

1234
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 2: obviously there was all the civil unrest for very good reason.

1235
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: I mean, just what a crazy time.

1236
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 6: But the music was great.

1237
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 1: The music was great.

1238
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, there aren't as many like serial killery

1239
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 2: type murders anymore, but gosh, there are sure a lot

1240
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 2: of shooting, and I would yeah, I would like for

1241
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 2: that to stop. So so I'm just putting that out

1242
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:05,799
Speaker 2: into the world.

1243
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: I don't know. The world is fucking crazy right now.

1244
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 1: But hey, we're here together. We have each other.

1245
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 5: It's you and me Megan against the world, against all

1246
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 5: every single cult and bad dynamic in the world.

1247
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 6: Yep, thank you guys so much for listening.

1248
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 5: We will see you next week and remember to follow

1249
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 5: your gut, watch out for red flags.

1250
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 1: Never ever trust me. By bye.