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Speaker 1: Ali Wentworth, host of Go Ask Galley. My listeners want more,

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Speaker 1: so we are digging in. It's real. It's honest, open

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Speaker 1: and unexpected and sometimes amusing. He told me you chased

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Speaker 1: him with a butcher knife and tried to cut off

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Speaker 1: his penis. But that's his version and everybody has everybody

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Speaker 1: has two sides of every store exactly. All new episodes

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Speaker 1: of Go Ask Galley release every Thursday. Listen to Go

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Speaker 1: Ask Ally on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Hi, it's Laverne Cox and on

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Speaker 1: my podcast, The Laverne Cox Show. We're ripping the band

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Speaker 1: aid off. Trauma, resilience dating, diet culture dating, white supremacy dating. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get explicit, but just because you're cute,

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Speaker 1: like I'm not going you're gonna say yes, girl and honey.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of fun along the way. You

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Speaker 1: us to talk openly about the difficult things we all

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Speaker 1: face as humans and as humans in America. Racist white

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Speaker 1: people in the United States will sign their own death certificates.

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Speaker 1: They will vote for policies that crush them, no safety nets,

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Speaker 1: no healthcare because they feel too much like entitlements. And

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Speaker 1: those are folks of color, right. Listen to The Laverne

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Speaker 1: Cox Show and the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcast, make sure you subscribe and share. Hi.

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Speaker 1: This is Ali Wentworth, host of Go ask Alli Season two.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back soon with more new episodes. As always,

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Speaker 1: Go ask Alli is there for binging and catching up,

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Speaker 1: purpose and meaning in life or how you figure out

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Speaker 1: what life is all about, and that requires unhappiness. So

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Speaker 1: here's the great paradox. To be happy, you also have

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Speaker 1: to be unhappy. Don't miss a single episode. Listen to

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Speaker 1: Go ask Alli on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Make sure you subscribe and share. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and Welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria trom Marquis and I'm

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Speaker 1: Holly Fry. We know that humans have always managed to

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Speaker 1: commit crimes, almost certainly before there was even recorded history,

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Speaker 1: so we decided that we would start looking at those

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Speaker 1: crimes and get our hands dirty. We wanted to dig

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Speaker 1: in and look at some of history's crimes criminals to

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Speaker 1: understand them better, and in doing so, we're curious if

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Speaker 1: we can find commonality with our modern world and our

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Speaker 1: modern problems, and whether these crimes look different a little

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Speaker 1: bit of distance on the timeline, and whether any of

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Speaker 1: these perpetrators emerge as more sympathetic characters. This first season

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Speaker 1: is going to be all about poisoners, specifically women poisoners.

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Speaker 1: Poison is often called a woman's weapon, despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that roughly two thirds of the poisonings committed throughout time

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Speaker 1: have been the work of men. So let's start looking

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Speaker 1: at these women and their motivations and see if any

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Speaker 1: patterns develop. This week, we're looking into the life and

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Speaker 1: crimes of Tilly Clinic, a Polish immigrant who killed at

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Speaker 1: least one and possibly as many as twenty people and

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Speaker 1: at least one dog between the years nineteen fourteen and

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two. I will confess that when you were

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Speaker 1: telling me about the research you were doing initially on

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Speaker 1: this and you mentioned the dog, I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I hate her. Not that it wasn't terrible, it should

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Speaker 1: killed people, just you know, that was for me the

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Speaker 1: worst thing that she could have done as well. She

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Speaker 1: was born Tiafila Burick to Michaelina and Michael Burick on

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Speaker 1: October twenty second, eighteen seventy seven, and Tilly was probably

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Speaker 1: right around four years old when her family immigrated to

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Speaker 1: the United States. They moved from Poland to the Little

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Speaker 1: Poland neighborhood of Chicago, and of the seven children in

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Speaker 1: the family, oh Tilly, as she was called, was the eldest.

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Speaker 1: Chicago has a long history of Polish immigration, and Polish

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Speaker 1: Americans have lived in the area for well over a century.

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Speaker 1: In eighteen ninety, around the time Tilly was born, there

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Speaker 1: was a wave of immigration to the United States. At

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Speaker 1: that time, the number of Polish immigrants in the city

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Speaker 1: blossomed to more than twenty five thousand. By nineteen thirty,

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Speaker 1: a few years before she died, that number had grown

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Speaker 1: to one hundred and sixty five thousand. Most they lived

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Speaker 1: below the poverty line. Is the tale of immigration in

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Speaker 1: so many ways. So let's set the scene of the

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Speaker 1: actual situation we're talking about today. So this is Chicago

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Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century. You couldn't necessarily count on

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Speaker 1: your food and drinks to be clean. Upton Sinclair started

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Speaker 1: publishing the serialized version of his groundbreaking expose of the

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Speaker 1: meat industry in the US, The Jungle, in nineteen oh five,

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Speaker 1: and while that led to the creation of the Meat

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Speaker 1: Inspection Act in nineteen oh six, food safety legislation was

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Speaker 1: still in its infancy. But if you were at a

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Speaker 1: restaurant or a club or a hotel around the city,

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Speaker 1: there were other dangers when it came to what you

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Speaker 1: consumed at the table. In particular, wait staff were known

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Speaker 1: to target patrons who didn't tip well. Not like the

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Speaker 1: content of the chatter in fight club, although honestly maybe

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Speaker 1: a little of that. They usually poisons and various other

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Speaker 1: things you really don't want to be in your food,

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Speaker 1: so remember always tip well. But moreover, it turns out

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Speaker 1: that you couldn't really count on food safety at home either,

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Speaker 1: at least if you lived with a Tilly Climic. During

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Speaker 1: the time that Chicago's most visible criminal element was organized crime,

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Speaker 1: Tilly was quietly becoming the city's most prolific female serial killer.

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Speaker 1: She'd allegedly killed between six and twenty people. Like we said,

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Speaker 1: but that was all through arsenic poisoning. So we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk first just about what arsenic actually is. It

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Speaker 1: is a naturally occurring element in the Earth's crust and

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Speaker 1: in its raw state. As much as it has this

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Speaker 1: instant conjuring of poison, it's not actually harmful the way

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Speaker 1: it naturally exists. Arsenic only really becomes poisonous when it's

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Speaker 1: converted into arsenic trioxide, which is better known as white arsenic.

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Speaker 1: White arsenic not only is odorless, but it's tasteless, and

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Speaker 1: it's white or transparent informs, so it's easily confused with

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Speaker 1: sugar or flour. But it's highly toxic when it's inhaled

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Speaker 1: into your lungs or when you ingest it, and it

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Speaker 1: might surprise you that even white arsenic is actually fairly

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Speaker 1: benign in relatively small amounts, because it is very lethal

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Speaker 1: at higher doses. In fact, doctors have actually prescribed white

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Speaker 1: arsenic through the years in its low dosage as a

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Speaker 1: treatment for things like asthma, typhus, malaria, even menstrual cramps,

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Speaker 1: and it continues to be administered intravenously as a chemotherapy

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Speaker 1: for a specific type of leukemia. When arsenic is ingested, initially,

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Speaker 1: it causes symptoms such as abdominal pain, diarrhea that's often

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Speaker 1: being accompanied by bleeding and vomiting. It's terrible. As the

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Speaker 1: dose gets more and more lethal in the body, though,

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Speaker 1: the symptoms also begin to include convulsions, cardiovascular problems, hair loss,

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Speaker 1: liver and kidney problems, and even organ damage. So not

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Speaker 1: a peaceful way to go. Definitely not sugar no, and

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Speaker 1: despite its potency, it has been used in the production

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Speaker 1: of semiconductors. It's been used as wood preservative, and it's

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Speaker 1: also sometimes found in pesticides. Manufacturers in the nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: started using it for its green pigment in products like

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Speaker 1: paint and wallpaper, fabrics, beauty products, and as food coloring.

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Speaker 1: The list goes on because green is very beautiful color,

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Speaker 1: so sometimes those products would actually make people sick, but

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Speaker 1: at the time, no one was suspecting that the arsenic

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Speaker 1: in them was the problem that was causing their ailments.

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Speaker 1: In the early twentieth century, when Tilly was busy murdering

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Speaker 1: people in her community, the average Americans medicine cabinet was

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Speaker 1: stocked with all sorts of toxic things like radioactive radium

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Speaker 1: for acne, and mercury as a topical antiseptic for cuts

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Speaker 1: and scrapes and burns. Morphine showed up in everyday products

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Speaker 1: and everything from teething medications to cures for heroin addiction.

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Speaker 1: From roughly the late eighteenth into the early twentieth century

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Speaker 1: is considered to be the golden age of poisoners, and

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Speaker 1: during that time, arsenic specifically caught the nickname the inheritance powder.

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Speaker 1: And you can probably imagine why the police really didn't

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Speaker 1: have any of the tools to test the corpse for poison.

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Speaker 1: Arsenic wasn't only easy to acquire, it was hard to

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Speaker 1: detect as a cause of death, which was win win

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Speaker 1: for the golden age of poisoners. It was common practice

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Speaker 1: for doctors to treat suspected poisoning with leeches bleeded out,

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Speaker 1: or try to identify the poison involved by sniffing the

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Speaker 1: contents of the person's stomach. Remember how we said arsenic

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Speaker 1: was odorless though, Yeah, so you just sniff those contents

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Speaker 1: for nothing. But it was also just unusual for a

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Speaker 1: doctor or a coroner to suspect arsenic as a cause

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Speaker 1: of death, mainly because the symptoms of arsenic poisoning that

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Speaker 1: Maria just talked about, diarrhea and vomiting and abdominal pain

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Speaker 1: are so similar to a lot of other disorders. It's

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Speaker 1: also really hard to place a poisoner at the scene

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Speaker 1: of the murder. Dying can typically take hours or longer

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Speaker 1: if you administered the poison gradually, such as with someone's meals,

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Speaker 1: so the perpetrator could easily have a seemingly airtight alibi

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Speaker 1: for their whereabouts because the window of time had such

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Speaker 1: fuzzy edges when it actually wouldn't be until the late

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century that a chemist named James marsh would come

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Speaker 1: up with a reliable chemical test for arsenic poisoning. Today,

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Speaker 1: arsenic poisoning is treated with chelatition therapy, which uses special

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Speaker 1: drugs that bind to metal ions in your blood. So

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Speaker 1: rough On Rats was the product that became popular in

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Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds. It was composed mainly of arsenic

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Speaker 1: and a little black coal for masking the poison, and

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Speaker 1: while i was advertised for use in killing rats, mice, bedbugs, flies, roaches,

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Speaker 1: it occasionally was used for the very off label purpose

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Speaker 1: of killing husbands. Believe it or not, the marketing slogan

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Speaker 1: for this poison rough On Rats was don't die in

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Speaker 1: the house, thinking, of course, being that the creature you

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Speaker 1: had poisoned would scurry away to die. It was also

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Speaker 1: really easily available at the local store, and Tillie actually

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Speaker 1: got her first bottle of rough On Rats from her

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Speaker 1: cousin Nellie Kulik, and Nellie, it would turn out, was

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Speaker 1: also a fellow poisoner murder and husbands. According to accounts

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Speaker 1: from her neighbors, Tillie was sent to have precognitive dreams,

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Speaker 1: meaning that she could predict the future in real life

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Speaker 1: through sort of a sixth sensish kind of way. She

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Speaker 1: began to predict the deaths of neighborhood dogs, and she

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Speaker 1: was surprisingly accurate, but it turns out she was just

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Speaker 1: scheduling their deaths. We're getting a little ahead of ourselves though,

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Speaker 1: in the progression of Tillie's activities with rough on rats.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to back up to eighteen ninety five. Hi,

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Speaker 1: It's Laverne Cox and on my podcast Verne Cox Show,

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Speaker 1: we're ripping the band aid off. Trauma, resilience dating, diet

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Speaker 1: culture dating, white supremacy dating. Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit,

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Speaker 1: but just because you're cute, like I'm not going you're

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Speaker 1: gonna say yes, girl, and honey. We have a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun along the way. You have a lot of

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Speaker 1: lesbian fans who love your femininity and glamour and they

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Speaker 1: just really really want I want us to talk openly

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Speaker 1: about the difficult things we all face as humans and

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Speaker 1: as humans in America. Racist white people in the United

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Speaker 1: States will sign their own death certificates. They will vote

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Speaker 1: for policies that crush them, no safety nets, no healthcare

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Speaker 1: because they feel too much like entitlements. And those are

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Speaker 1: folks of color, right. Listen to The Laverne Cox Show

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Speaker 1: and the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcast make sure you subscribe and share. Hi. This

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Speaker 1: is Ali Wentworth, host of Go Ask Alli Season two.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back soon with more new episodes, but what

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Speaker 1: you can do is binge the first half of season

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Speaker 1: two or revisit our first spectacular season. Everyone has to

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Speaker 1: It's like this quiet thing that everyone wants to avoid.

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Speaker 1: But then everyone wants to live this life and doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter what how you define that life, but you need

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Speaker 1: money for it. Just a few of our fabulous guests

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Speaker 1: the season are former editor of People magazine Jess Cagel,

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Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling author Isabel Gillies, and writer and

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Speaker 1: Oprah's favorite life coach Martha Beck. And people come to

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Speaker 1: me now and they will say negative things, and I think,

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Speaker 1: I respectfully do not give a crap what you think,

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Speaker 1: because I'm a crazy old bat now and you can't

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Speaker 1: stop me. That's great. Our guests have so much to say.

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Speaker 1: One liston isn't enough. Listen to Go ask Ali on

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Make

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Speaker 1: sure you subscribe and share Hey, I'm Gabrielle Collins, period

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Speaker 1: drama nerd and you're behind the scenes guide to Bridgerton.

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Speaker 1: On Bridgerton the Official Podcast, we're learning how this fantasy

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Speaker 1: world dipped in history came to life. Daphanie, her costume

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Speaker 1: design really is about the elegance of simplicity. It's just

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Speaker 1: color and shape. We went old school and we got

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Speaker 1: two scene cartists in who painted the backings for us

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Speaker 1: by hand. These dukes are all like in their late

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Speaker 1: twenties early thirties. Almost all of them are unmarried, really

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Speaker 1: good looking, and none of them have syphilis. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine when he looks into your eyes and then he

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Speaker 1: dips you. We just heard this sort of ripping sound. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this has been a wardrobe malfunction. Listen to

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Speaker 1: Bridgerton the Official Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or anywhere you get your favorite shows. Welcome back to Criminalia.

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Speaker 1: By eighteen ninety five, Tillie was married to John mckawitz.

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Speaker 1: His name may have been Joseph not John. Records aren't

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Speaker 1: entirely consistent, but we're gonna go with John because that's

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Speaker 1: what the majority of records from the time referred to

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Speaker 1: him as that is one of the delights word I'm

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Speaker 1: using ironically of doing historical research, particularly when you are

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Speaker 1: talking about immigrants, because there was not a vested interest

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Speaker 1: always in the government in keeping accurate records about them,

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Speaker 1: So you often have these these people's stories that get

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Speaker 1: really muddy because their names do shift around in the

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Speaker 1: historical record. Anyway, by all accounts this couple, Tilly and John,

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Speaker 1: were well liked in their community, and their marriage appeared

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Speaker 1: by all accounts to be happy. Tilly made her life

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Speaker 1: as a housekeeper, but it was also during this time

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Speaker 1: that Tilly started telling neighbors about some visions that she

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Speaker 1: was having. She was, as we mentioned before the break,

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Speaker 1: an alleged psychic who was skilled specifically at predicting deaths.

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Speaker 1: This included predicting the death of her own husband, John,

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Speaker 1: who had left her a thousand dollars When he died

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fourteen. The coroner's report listed his death as

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Speaker 1: a result of heart trouble, nothing suspicious. There was no

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Speaker 1: reason at the time to suspect that John had been

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Speaker 1: poisoned by his wife. The nickname black widow, which is

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Speaker 1: often given to women who kill their lovers in order

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Speaker 1: to inherit. Their wealth would eventually be bestowed upon Tilly,

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Speaker 1: but not just yet. Here's a little more in detail

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Speaker 1: on John's sudden end. Okay. In the beginning of nineteen fourteen,

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Speaker 1: Tilly began telling friends and those in the community that

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Speaker 1: she dreamed that John was ill. She expected he would

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Speaker 1: be on his deathbed in just a few weeks, and

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Speaker 1: when he died in January thirteenth that year, the cause

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Speaker 1: of death was listed as heart trouble, and Tilly collected

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Speaker 1: a thousand dollars in life insurance. I guess after nineteen years,

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Speaker 1: she just didn't want to gun it to twenty. She's

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Speaker 1: like enough. After receiving that payout on John's life insurance policy,

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Speaker 1: Tilly actually remarried pretty quickly. See, now, that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: She remarried quickly often, And I have to I always

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Speaker 1: sort of wonder, like if she would follow in love

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Speaker 1: with someone new and be like, oh, I'll kill my

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Speaker 1: husband and we'll start out fresh with like this new

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. It's just my own personal theory. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think there's merit to it. But her new husband, Joseph Raskowski,

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Speaker 1: died just three months after they got married. And he

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Speaker 1: happened to leave his widow twelve hundred dollars in cash

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Speaker 1: and seven hundred twenty two dollars in insurance money. Not

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Speaker 1: only did Tilly predict Joseph's death, she went on to

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Speaker 1: predict the deaths of her third husband, although they may

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Speaker 1: or may not have been married, it's a little sketchy.

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Speaker 1: And her fourth husband, as well as children, she cared

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Speaker 1: for a few neighbors and possibly some other family members.

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Speaker 1: And not only did she joke with neighbors that her

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Speaker 1: fourth husband, Frank, had quote two inches to live, which

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Speaker 1: is a really interesting, fascinating turn of phrase, she allegedly

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Speaker 1: taunted him on his deathbed and said things like it

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Speaker 1: won't be long now and you'll be dying soon, which

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Speaker 1: is hard in my own home. You got two inches

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Speaker 1: to live? I don't know, right, It's like callous on

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Speaker 1: a level that's hard to comprehend, right right. She also,

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Speaker 1: in an act of both cruel and creative, knitted herself

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Speaker 1: a morning hat as she sat by his bedside while

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Speaker 1: he was dying. She even so far as to purchase

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Speaker 1: a thirty dollars bargain coffin to keep in the basement

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Speaker 1: of her house. Waiting for his death. That storage areament

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Speaker 1: was a little unsettling request made of her landlord, who

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Speaker 1: began to be a little suspicious of Tilly after that

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Speaker 1: came in. Frank did die on April twentieth, nineteen twenty one,

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Speaker 1: and it is said that when it happened, Tillie played

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Speaker 1: dance music in the room. The coroner listed Frank's cause

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Speaker 1: of death as bronchial pneumonia. Tilly's poisonous predilections unnoticed. She

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Speaker 1: once again collected on his life insurance, this time in

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Speaker 1: the amount of six hundred seventy five dollars, nearly as

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Speaker 1: much as the last two. I know she's downgrading the

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Speaker 1: insurance situation with each one. They're going faster now, you know.

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Speaker 1: It's just not enough time to like build up to

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Speaker 1: the thousand. That's another theory I have. It's interesting and

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Speaker 1: grimly fun to note that frank An Tillie's home at

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Speaker 1: nine twenty four Winchester It's a house in East Dillige

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Speaker 1: in Chicago shows up on the Old Fourth Square social

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Speaker 1: networking site as Old Lady Tilly Clinics Haunted House. Even today,

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Speaker 1: Tilly was still not arrested, though that didn't happen until

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Speaker 1: after she botched an attempt at poisoning husband number five,

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Speaker 1: that was Joseph Clemack. She and Joseph had gotten married

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Speaker 1: in July of nineteen twenty one, again not long after

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Speaker 1: Frank's demise, and Clemack is said to have been a

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Speaker 1: relatively wealthy man, but Tilly did not like that. He

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Speaker 1: also apparently had a wandering eye, and by October of

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two, he was in the hospital experiencing arm numbness,

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Speaker 1: leg paralysis, and other symptoms consistent with severe arsenic poisoning.

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Speaker 1: So while he was in the hospital, Tilly's husband recalled

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Speaker 1: that his food had tasted strangely lately, and here's one

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Speaker 1: big red flag. He remembered the dog dying after eating

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Speaker 1: scraps of food till he had cooked. Her husband also

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Speaker 1: stated he'd planned to press charges against her and till

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Speaker 1: he kissed him. Such a strange dynamic at play, But

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Speaker 1: it was not poisoning Joseph that she went on trial for.

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Speaker 1: While Tilly was arrested initially for the attempted murder of

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Speaker 1: Joseph Klemick, who would survive her poison his hand. After

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Speaker 1: an investigation into the deaths of her previous husbands. The

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Speaker 1: crime Tilly was eventually tried for was the murder of Frank,

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Speaker 1: her third husband, but even as she was taken in,

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Speaker 1: she appeared completely indifferent to the whole situation. It is

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Speaker 1: said that she told the arresting officer, who was Lieutenant

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Speaker 1: William Malone, the next one I want to cook dinner

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Speaker 1: for is you? You made all my trouble. After eighteen

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Speaker 1: hours of interrogation, Tilly confessed to her crimes, admitting to

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Speaker 1: mixing rat poison into her victim's food and drink note plural.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting, right, Like eighteen hours of interrogation is considered extreme,

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Speaker 1: it is, and she just gives it all up. Then

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Speaker 1: there's that whole thing of like is this a coerced

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Speaker 1: confession at that point? But her later behavior makes it

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Speaker 1: seem like she's pretty down with this information being one

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Speaker 1: true and part of public records. Yeah, she's a badass.

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Speaker 1: Just two grains of arsenic is enough to kill almost anyone,

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Speaker 1: and as much as eight grains were found in Frank's organs,

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Speaker 1: so enough to kill four people. Authorities decided to exhume

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Speaker 1: Tillie's other husbands and found their stomachs each contained lethal

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Speaker 1: doses of arsenic, and although evidence existed to convict her

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Speaker 1: of as many as twenty murders by arsenic, only one

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Speaker 1: charge resulted in a conviction. Although she was not the

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Speaker 1: only woman and wife in her community to be arrested

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Speaker 1: for suspicion of poisoning, she was the only one of

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Speaker 1: them who was sentenced. Yeah. Remember how we mentioned her

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Speaker 1: cousin earlier. Yeah. Authorities went on to investigate a possible

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Speaker 1: poison ring in the Little Poland neighborhood, arresting other local

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Speaker 1: women in what the assistant state attorney at the time

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Speaker 1: that was, a man named William McLaughlin called quote the

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Speaker 1: most astonishing wholesale poisoning plot uncovered. He wanted the death

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Speaker 1: penalty for Tilly, but without better evidence, the other women

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Speaker 1: who had been rounded up just had to be released.

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Speaker 1: As Tillie's story unfurls, it becomes apparent that it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just husbands that she poisoned. She played fast and loose

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Speaker 1: with rough on rats, poisoning people who irritated her and

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Speaker 1: dogs who barked too much. In the neighborhood. Life was

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Speaker 1: especially risky if you were one of Tillie's cousins. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, Tillie's cousin Stanley Zaczuski died at the age

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Speaker 1: of sixteen. Tillie, who was in her mid thirties at

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Speaker 1: the time, tended on him while he was ill. Another cousin,

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Speaker 1: Stanley's sister, Stell, died in nineteen thirteen. She was twenty

402
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: three at the time, and again Tillie played the role

403
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Speaker 1: of caregiver. After her husband Frank's death, Tillie started seeing

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00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: a man named Joseph Grantkowski, like lovers before him. Joseph

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Speaker 1: died in nineteen fourteen after jilting her and back to cousins.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen fifteen, Tillie's cousin Helen died at age fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Another cousin, Nick Micko, became sick from arsenic poisoning, but

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Speaker 1: he was lucky enough to actually recover. In nineteen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Tillie's cousin Rose died after attending Tillie and Frank's wedding party.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighteen, Tillie may have been involved in the

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Speaker 1: poisoning of Woejecks Drummer, who was the husband of her

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Speaker 1: cousin Nellie the same Nellie from she procured her rat poison.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that Tillie wasn't only cooking arsenic into meals,

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Speaker 1: she was also a confectioner. Twizzlers may make mouse happy,

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Speaker 1: but you definitely want to skip Tillie's streets. So Stella Guskowski,

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Speaker 1: sister of Tillie's former boyfriend Joseph, got sick after she

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Speaker 1: ate a candy that was given to her by Tillie

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Speaker 1: after the two women had an argument. Joseph died from

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Speaker 1: tainted candy as well. Rose Split had also stayed and

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Speaker 1: Tillie gave her arsenic confused candies after Joseph Klink talked

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Speaker 1: to her. So jealous, Tillie was willing to go after

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Speaker 1: innocent women who her husband even dared to converse with.

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Speaker 1: So let's keep going because we're only about halfway through

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Speaker 1: the body count. There was also a woman named Bessie

425
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: Kopzick's sister in law of Tilly's husband Frank, who fell

426
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: sick after eating Tillie's cooking, but Bessie recovered. Children, primarily relatives,

427
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: were also on Tillie's hit list. At least four children

428
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: in Tillie's sphere were poisoned between nineteen seventeen nineteen eighteen,

429
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: Dorothy Spara died at age two. Twins Sophie and Ben's

430
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: Strummer also died. John Strummer was the only one to recover.

431
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 1: Lillian's drummer, who was in her early teens, lived at

432
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: Tillie's home for a year when she became deathly ill

433
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: from the food and suffered heart trouble. So skip ahead

434
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: just a few years to March nineteen twenty three and

435
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: a man named Myers goes missing. Suspicious. Maybe he might

436
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: have been one of Tillie's husband's, but he was more

437
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: likely just a boyfriend. Records from this time, as we've mentioned,

438
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: not always robust, and a lot of times people would

439
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: just claim to be spouses without going through the paperwork,

440
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 1: kind of like common law, but more like they were

441
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: just like, well, we lived together, and we live as

442
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,959
Speaker 1: a married couple. Either way, the risk of dying was

443
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: obviously considerably high for any of Tilly's paramours, legally wed

444
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: or not. I don't think she cared about the paperwork,

445
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: just the life insurance. At her trial, Tillie wore the

446
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: black hat that she had made when her third husband,

447
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: Frank had been on his deathbed. She had also warned

448
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: it to his funeral as she had planned. Historically, in

449
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: Chicago in the early twentieth century, women who were brought

450
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: to trial for murder, which was usually murder of their husbands,

451
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: were almost always acquitted. If a woman was unlucky enough

452
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: to be convicted, she was generally going to be given

453
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: an amazingly light sentence in comparison to men who had

454
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: stood trial for murder, and it really helped your case.

455
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: If you were very feminine, weeping a bit and flirting

456
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: would always help. In the year's leading up to Tillie's trial,

457
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: twenty eight women had been charged with murder in Cook County,

458
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: where Chicago is located. Twenty four were acquitted. It is

459
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: probably no coincidence that all twenty four of those women

460
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: were considered conventionally attractive. Up to twenty eight, only four

461
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: were found guilty, Hilda Axeland, who was not considered a meaty,

462
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: Via Trepagnier, who was middle aged, Emma Simpson who was

463
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: determined to be insane, and Dora Waterman, who also was

464
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: not known for her looks. On the other hand, the

465
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: well dressed, well groomed Cora or Fuen, who shot her

466
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: boyfriend over his cheating, walked free. Tilly, though, did not

467
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: have these advantages. She was nothing like skylish Belva Gartner

468
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: and beautiful Beulah Annam, the killers who inspired the play Chicago.

469
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: According to Genevieve Forbes, a crime reporter who covered the

470
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: trial for the Chicago Tribune, Tilly was neither beautiful nor charming.

471
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: She was described as a middle aged woman forty five

472
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: who was squat quote unquoth, with a greasy complexion and

473
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: a lumpy figure. Her dull brown hair was pulled back

474
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: into a nod at the back of her head. Despite

475
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: having lived in Chicago since she was just a little kid,

476
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: she spoke only broken English, and it was reported that

477
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: she growled, I shudder to think what Genevieve for During

478
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: the proceedings, prosecutors read a list of twenty alleged victims

479
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: of Tilly, pausing after each name to ask her did

480
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: you kill this person? And each time she would reportedly shrug,

481
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: responding to each of the simple yeah, I wish I

482
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: could have bet. At this trial, the trial Jedge asked

483
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: for something called a psychopathic lab report. According to the

484
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: examining doctor, Tilly was a quote subnormal mentality with an

485
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: intellect and I quote again no higher than that of

486
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: an eleven year old child. As we just mentioned, she

487
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: didn't really speak English especially well, so let's take these

488
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: results with a grain of salt. And it was reported

489
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: she was afflicted with dementia precox, a diagnosis today that

490
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: would be schizophrenia. She was also described as a rattlesnake,

491
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: as a heartless woman and to do to the murders

492
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: around her. She got the nickname we mentioned earlier, Black Widow. Hi.

493
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: It's Ali Wentworth, a middle aged woman with a lot

494
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: of questions and a lot of answers I have pulled

495
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: out of my tush as host of Go Ask Alli,

496
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: my listeners want more, so we are digging in. It's real.

497
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: It's honest, open and unexpected and sometimes amusing. Can you

498
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: start with your infamous nineteen thousand dollars haircut? Yes, and

499
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: this is a great story I feel about mothers and

500
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: daughters with a dream and an empty bank account. Just

501
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: a few of our fabulous guests this season are New

502
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: York Times bestselling author Isabel Gillies, writer and Oprah's Favorite

503
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: life coach, Martha Beck and former editor of People Magazine

504
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: Jess Cagel. If we know intimate details about another person,

505
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: then that person is socially important to us. Okay, so

506
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: that's what you like to gossip about. Wait, what do

507
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: you gussip about? All new episodes of Go ask Alli

508
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: release every Thursday. Listen to Go Scalie on the iHeartRadio app,

509
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys,

510
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: Katie Lowe's here. You might know me as Quinn Perkins

511
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: on Scandal. I am also the host of Katie's Crib.

512
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: It's a podcast about all things parenthood. Katie's Crib is

513
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: back with new episodes every Thursday. We have got an

514
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: amazing lineup of guests. We have got the amazing Katerina Scorsone,

515
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: who you might also know as doctor Amelia Shephard from

516
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: Grey's Anatomy. She is talking about her three children. We've

517
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: also got kat McPhee Foster. She just became a mom

518
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: like two seconds ago. We just have a great hang

519
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: sessh talking about all things new Mama. We are going

520
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: to be covering everything from discipline to mom ring. Tune

521
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: in as I bring on celebrities, experts, and even more

522
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: guests to continue to help you get through parenthood one

523
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: step at a time. Listen to Katie's crib on the

524
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Because

525
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: of the evidence beyond the single murder, investigators obtained permission

526
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: to exoom the corpses of Tillie's dead husbands for arsenic

527
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: toxicity testing. Newspaper headlines covering the trial featured headlines like

528
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: three more bodies to be exhoomed in clemic case, and

529
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: bodies of other relatives will be exhumed. All those cousins,

530
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: all those cousins, all yeah, the children and dogs thing.

531
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: I just obviously killing anybody as bad. But Tillie, though,

532
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: stuck to a story that Frank had died of alcohol

533
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: poisoning and that she had absolutely not killed her spouses.

534
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: She said, quote, I loved them, they loved me. They

535
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: just died, same as other people. She continued, I'm not

536
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: responsible for that. I could not help if they wanted

537
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: to die. Contrary to her statement during the trial, the

538
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: coroner accusingly asserted, quote, there is no question that missus

539
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: clinic poisoned everyone. She wanted to get out of the way.

540
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: After the jury deliberated or just an hour and twenty minutes,

541
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: Tilly was found guilty of the murder of her third husband,

542
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: Frank Kopsick. In nineteen twenty three. Judge Marcus Kavanaugh sentenced

543
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: her to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

544
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: That was the harshest sentence ever given to a woman

545
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: in Chicago at that time. Four jurors thought she should

546
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: be given the death penalty. At the time, no woman

547
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: had ever been sentenced to death in the state of Illinois.

548
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: The Chicago Tribune reporter Forbes called her gruesomely cruel and

549
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: went on to say that Tilly is a spectator in

550
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: her own drama. While on all accounts, Tilly is considered

551
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: to have been friendly to the other prisoners, once she

552
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: was incarcerated, she definitely did not want to talk about

553
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: the poisonings. It has said that she would yell, quote,

554
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: I didn't rob nobody, I didn't shoot nobody. I didn't

555
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: poison nobody. I didn't everybody picks on me. Everybody makes

556
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: eyes at me like they're going to eat me. Why

557
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: do they make eyes like that. I tell the truth.

558
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: Anything I did I did to myself, nobody else. She

559
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: was incarcerated at the Illinois State Penitentiary at Juliet, with

560
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: one stipulation. It said that while Tilly enjoyed the few

561
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: food served to her in prison, the judge declared that

562
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: she never be allowed to cook for her fellow inmates.

563
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: After thirteen years of incarceration, she died on November twentieth,

564
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six. So Tilly clearly does seem to have

565
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: had a certain detachment and a callousness about the crime

566
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: she was found guilty of, and that cannot have helped

567
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: her case. But we also can't disregard another significant influence

568
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: in the outcome of her trial, which we briefly touched on. Now,

569
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: you might hope something like physical appearance wouldn't matter today

570
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: in the courtroom as it clearly did in Tillie's day.

571
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 1: You might surprise to hear that the judge and jury

572
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: can still be swayed by a pretty face. What we

573
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: know from study upon study, is that most people, even

574
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: without being conscious of it, consider physically attractive adults to

575
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: be healthier, more intelligent, and to have better personalities than

576
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: those who we are not considered as esthetically pleasing. In fact,

577
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: in economics, there's a phenomenon known as the beauty premium,

578
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: and on the opposite side of the spectrum there's what's

579
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: called the ugliness penalty. But that's just not limited to economics,

580
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: it's just how humans work with each other. In recent years,

581
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 1: studies have also found that as humans, we generally consider

582
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: attractive people in our society to just be better people,

583
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: whether that's in the workplace, at school, in relationships, or

584
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: in the courtroom where you would hope and expect to

585
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: find impartiality. Studies in the last few decades have found

586
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: that juries tend to be biased in the favor of

587
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: good looking defendants. This can mean people considered to be

588
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: attractive or not only found guilty less often, but that

589
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 1: they also receive less severe sentences when they are found guilty.

590
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: Unattractive however you define it, defendants, on the other hand,

591
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: were more likely to be served with longer and harsher

592
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: sentences in average of twenty two months longer in prison,

593
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 1: and that's even today. So while Tilly we could never

594
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 1: paint as a good guy in any of this, she

595
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: definitely still was also a victim of this kind of

596
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: weird bias that people won't even acknowledge that they have. Right.

597
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: We feel that we're above it now, but we're not.

598
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: We're clearly not. No. And the thing is, it's one

599
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: of those things that's insidious, right like we all have it.

600
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: We all have these biases. So you can't presume that,

601
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: in recognizing that they exist, that you have overcome your

602
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: own because it's hardwired almost in some ways, it's not

603
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: really hardwired. You can relearn it, but it takes an

604
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: awful lot of conscious effort, absolutely, and a constant conscious

605
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: effort probably for the rest of your life. You're always

606
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: practicing it. Yes, But in less downer talk, Hey, Maria,

607
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: it's my favorite time of the show, cocktail hour. Yes, indeed,

608
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: what's your Poison? Our time where we'd come up with

609
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: a little something, something that will relate to the show

610
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: in a fun way. And since we've been talking about

611
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: Tillie and since she was a Polish immigrant, I wanted

612
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: to do something in honor of her Polish heritage. So

613
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: I squirreled around on the Internet for a while because

614
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: I couldn't come up with anything on my own, and

615
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: I discovered this recipe. It's called a few different things.

616
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: The name that I enjoy is Polish Kiss. And what

617
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: this is is Zubrowka vodka, which is a bison grass vodka.

618
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: Did you say bison grass vodka? I did. That's interesting. Yeah,

619
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the grass that bison prefer,

620
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: like fine bison everywhere. I don't swear by this grass.

621
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: It's just I don't know. It has a blade of

622
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: grass in the bottle. I also came across this drink

623
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: called a Frisky Bison aka the Polish Kiss. So clearly

624
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 1: so the Polish Kiss is The version that I found

625
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: was one point five ounces of this bice and grass

626
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: vodka and then five ounces of apple juice. And the

627
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: way it was touted when I read about it was

628
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: that it tastes just like apple pie. And does it?

629
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: It does not, at least not the version I made. Now,

630
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: let me back up the truck for a minute, because

631
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to blame the recipe maker. I but

632
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: it's delicious, it's just not like apple pie. I think

633
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: probably if you are making it with normal apple juice

634
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: from the store, it probably does start to taste like

635
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: apple pie. But I bought organic, unsweetened hippie apple juice

636
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: to go with the vodka. I totally so what happened

637
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: is that it tastes like you have just picked a

638
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: fresh apple off of a tree and taken a bite

639
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: of it. Because that vodka has that grassy flavor that

640
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: makes it feel like a fresh plant based item. And

641
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: it's absolutely beautiful. It's very crisp, sounds delicious. It's like

642
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: it's a summer day cocktail. For sure. It was very delightful.

643
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: I could see that she would probably drink that while

644
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: she was waiting for her husband to die, like while

645
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: she was knitting her hat. She's like, Oh, I just

646
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: something refreshing to drink. While I will say this, I

647
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: will say this, that cocktail vibes to me a little

648
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: too fancy for her. I picture her as like a

649
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: bear drink. It does seem a little fancy. And remember

650
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: Chicago in the twenties, Probably not like I want fancy

651
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: imported vodka. I doubt I would like the imported bison

652
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: grass vodka from my homeland. Okay, probably didn't come up much,

653
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: I guess though, And I guess now that is this

654
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: week's What's Your Poison? And thank you for joining us

655
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Speaker 1: again on Criminalia. If you would like to subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, we would like you to do that. As well,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever it is you listen. Criminalia is

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Speaker 1: a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, please visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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