Speaker 1: I'm a four foot eleven inch not small woman from
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico. English is not her first language, and has
Speaker 1: lived in the US, and is married to a black
Speaker 1: man and lost a child in a shooting and has
Speaker 1: a surviving son who's eighteen. And I'm terrified for he
Speaker 1: looks like Tamir Rice. He looks like Trayvon Martin. So
Speaker 1: my influence and perspective comes from many different places, but
Speaker 1: my fundamental value is that people who are wounded by
Speaker 1: trauma or tragedy should actually be safe, protected, loved, and
Speaker 1: made whole.
Speaker 2: This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm
Speaker 2: your host, Megan Divine. Now, recently the Washington Post released
Speaker 2: graphic images, videos, and audio recordings from mass shootings in
Speaker 2: a report called Terror on Repeat, And there is a
Speaker 2: lot of public opinion about this, whether they should be
Speaker 2: allowed to release such imagery, who own owns those images,
Speaker 2: especially in regards to public health crises like gun violence,
Speaker 2: and whether surviving families honestly should have any say in
Speaker 2: whether photos that involve their people are released to the public.
Speaker 1: I at all.
Speaker 2: Now, The answer to all of those questions is complicated,
Speaker 2: and complexity and nuance can be very hard to find
Speaker 2: in the news and on social media, and that is
Speaker 2: an understatement. So in this special Encore episode, Sandy Hook, Parent,
Speaker 2: survivor Melba Marquez Green and I discuss what cries of
Speaker 2: release the photos actually means to survivors who have already
Speaker 2: had their private lives invaded and their people's images co
Speaker 2: opted for others' use. It is a discussion about trauma
Speaker 2: and sovereignty, and as Neelba says, it's about survivors doing
Speaker 2: whatever they need to do to survive. The release of
Speaker 2: photos subject is just one part of our conversation. With
Speaker 2: so much pain unfolding in the world, the time that
Speaker 2: you will spend with Nelba in this episode will make
Speaker 2: you think, it will make you feel, and it could
Speaker 2: even give you some access to hope, which is really
Speaker 2: hard to find in this violent world. So after the break,
Speaker 2: my conversation with survivor advocate Nelba Marquez Green. It first
Speaker 2: aired in late twenty twenty two, and fortunately or unfortunately,
Speaker 2: the information is evergreen. Before we get started, one quick note.
Speaker 2: While we cover a lot of emotional relational territory in
Speaker 2: each and every episode, this show is not a substitute
Speaker 2: for skilled support with a licensed mental health provider or
Speaker 2: for professional supervision related to your work. Hey friends, So
Speaker 2: when I asked this week's guest for her official bye IO,
Speaker 2: here's what she offered me. Melba Marquez Green is a
Speaker 2: licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in grief, loss, trauma,
Speaker 2: and their impact on individuals and systems. Now, that is
Speaker 2: an absolutely true and accurate description. What she doesn't say
Speaker 2: is that she became a ferocious advocate for survivors and
Speaker 2: grieving people after her child was murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary.
Speaker 2: Melba and I have been Internet friends for a number
Speaker 2: of years now. We usually shared quick acknowledgment and connection
Speaker 2: whenever something that is related to gun violence comes up
Speaker 2: in the news, just to show that we see each other.
Speaker 2: I've also come to know her humor and her snarkiness,
Speaker 2: and a little bit of the personal life beyond the
Speaker 2: sound bites that she is often called upon to do
Speaker 2: whenever yet another new act of public gun violence shows
Speaker 2: up in the world. I've also come to know her
Speaker 2: ferocious commitment to claiming joy right alongside the grief in
Speaker 2: her life and her family's life. If you've ever wanted
Speaker 2: to know what it's like to live on after a
Speaker 2: horrific act of public violence. This episode is for you.
Speaker 2: If you've ever felt like people tell you what your
Speaker 2: own survival should look like without ever actually asking you
Speaker 2: what you want for yourself. This episode is also for you.
Speaker 2: And if you just really need to hear a story
Speaker 2: of hope and love and connection in the face of
Speaker 2: really horrendous events that I don't even have language for,
Speaker 2: which really, I think is all of us, this episode
Speaker 2: is for you too. A couple of content notes. This
Speaker 2: episode explores the realities of gun violence, and it contains
Speaker 2: a fair bit of swearing. Let's get rolling, okay, everybody.
Speaker 2: I am so excited for this conversation today and so
Speaker 2: excited to share this person with you. Oh I get
Speaker 2: tierri even thinking about it now. Ba hi friend, welcome.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for all you put out in this world to make
Speaker 1: it a kinder, gentler, more just world for grievers.
Speaker 2: Thank you. You and I are united on so many things,
Speaker 2: but I think this, like this is such a foundational
Speaker 2: bedrock thing that you and I share, this ferocious protection
Speaker 2: of grieving people. In my notes where I've got like
Speaker 2: I've got so many topics that I feel like you
Speaker 2: and I can talk about, but I'm going to go
Speaker 2: with some current events here for a second. The pressure
Speaker 2: that you and survivor families like yours get anytime there's
Speaker 2: like yet another act of mass violence, like the pressure
Speaker 2: that surviving families get to weigh in, tell us what
Speaker 2: people need?
Speaker 1: Do this? Do that?
Speaker 2: Like this relentless push that survivors get. So you have
Speaker 2: a recent New York Times op ed in July, and
Speaker 2: one of the many lines that I pulled out of
Speaker 2: that today, I'd like to open with this one, and
Speaker 2: you wrote, Americans want a healthier and safer world, but
Speaker 2: we don't protect wounded people. I think that's a really
Speaker 2: amazing place to start. Can you tell me what you
Speaker 2: mean by that we don't protect wounded people?
Speaker 1: You know? So my perspective of helping wounded folks comes
Speaker 1: from many different pieces. It comes from cultural places, it
Speaker 1: comes from spiritual places, It comes from life experience. It
Speaker 1: comes from the perspective of being a marginalized woman. Right.
Speaker 1: I'm a four foot eleven inch small woman from Puerto Rico.
Speaker 1: English is not her first language and has lived in
Speaker 1: the US and is married to a black man. And
Speaker 1: lost a child in a shooting and has a surviving
Speaker 1: son who's eighteen, and I'm terrified for he looks like
Speaker 1: Tamir Rice. He looks like Trayvon Martin. So my influence
Speaker 1: and perspective comes from many different places, but my fundamental
Speaker 1: value is that people who are wounded by trauma or
Speaker 1: tragedy should actually be safe, protected, loved, and made whole.
Speaker 1: And that we don't do that by adding additional urden
Speaker 1: or outside expectation. We do that by resourcing right. And
Speaker 1: we live in a world that constantly demands resilience without
Speaker 1: providing proper resource. I like to stand up when I
Speaker 1: see that and say, this is actually not how we
Speaker 1: do it. This is actually not a I think everyone
Speaker 1: wants to talk about the product. Maybe the product is
Speaker 1: you know, gun safety law change, which which is desperately needed,
Speaker 1: But we also have to talk about the process. How
Speaker 1: we get to the product is just as important as
Speaker 1: getting to the product, at least for brief families. That's
Speaker 1: just how I see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I think there's this idea that surviving families
Speaker 2: are a public commodity, right that.
Speaker 1: If we really believe.
Speaker 2: In, as you said, the product, if we really believe
Speaker 2: in gun control, in gun safety, then kind of by
Speaker 2: any means necessary, right, Like, then you should be out
Speaker 2: there speaking about these things. We should be able to
Speaker 2: see photos of dead children, dead bodies. There should be
Speaker 2: nothing held back because we truly believe in that product
Speaker 2: of gun safety. And you really stand up and say,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, like wrong, wrong path to the mountaintop? Friends,
Speaker 2: do you want to say a little bit about that
Speaker 2: process of getting to that product?
Speaker 1: And sure, I think again, coming from a background where
Speaker 1: I am already familiar with being commodified, marginalized, colonialized, my
Speaker 1: experience of Sandy Hook might be quite different than many
Speaker 1: of the other families. I only speak for myself, but
Speaker 1: what I saw was exactly that a lot of people
Speaker 1: who after Anna died, made decisions on what I should
Speaker 1: and shouldn't do. And I think the only people who
Speaker 1: get to determine and decide that are families. So when
Speaker 1: we do want a specific product from a family, what
Speaker 1: we should do is figure out if there are barriers
Speaker 1: and then try to eliminate those barriers. So, if we
Speaker 1: are deeply feeling that people and families who have lost
Speaker 1: relativestic on violence should be doing fantastic that you feel
Speaker 1: that way. What's the resource you're going to offer in
Speaker 1: order for me to get there with you? Because the
Speaker 1: advocacy space and the caring for family space is sometimes
Speaker 1: it's the same, but often very different, and we want
Speaker 1: to work closely together because we do all want that product.
Speaker 1: But I am not the sacrifice you're gonna put on
Speaker 1: the altar. You already did that to my daughter. You
Speaker 1: don't get to take me. You don't get to take
Speaker 1: my son, you don't get to take my husband. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you can't see me. So at this point, I
Speaker 1: want you to know that I am pointing, and when
Speaker 1: I am pointing, that means something. I think it's really gross.
Speaker 1: I do think it doesn't come from a gross all
Speaker 1: the time, a gross place. I think people are desperate
Speaker 1: and people are scared, and I understand, but I want
Speaker 1: our desire to see families who have experienced this stay
Speaker 1: alive and thrive to be as much a priority as
Speaker 1: our need for legislative change. And we have seen a
Speaker 1: number of deaths by suicide, and I am trying desperately
Speaker 1: to remind people that we are humans and need care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not a pr cam pain, right. I think
Speaker 2: we forget this a lot that behind every headline are
Speaker 2: actual human beings who are affected by these things. And
Speaker 2: you're right, there's that desperation, right, this panic of we
Speaker 2: have to do something, well, yes, and not continuing to
Speaker 2: put that burden on the people you're trying to protect
Speaker 2: or you think you're trying to protect. I love that
Speaker 2: you said, like, I don't think that most people have
Speaker 2: nefarious intent in there. I also just like any opportunity
Speaker 2: I can take to use the word nefarious, because I
Speaker 2: think it's a wonderful word. But I think, like you know,
Speaker 2: most people think like, but you know, we're not asking
Speaker 2: you this or not not doing this to you out
Speaker 2: of malice, but out of like desperation and desire to
Speaker 2: make people safe. And we just don't think about the
Speaker 2: human cost of our demands, right, Yes.
Speaker 1: And activism that centers you as an outside person with
Speaker 1: an opinion and doesn't center me is commodification. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: say that again.
Speaker 2: We are going to use that everywhere. Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I have been at events that have been
Speaker 1: change driven events where people have literally elbowed me in
Speaker 1: the head to get to a speaker, right, A movement leader,
Speaker 1: someone who hasn't lost a person, but just a movement leader.
Speaker 1: So because I am a therapist by training and a
Speaker 1: very curious person on human behavior. I remember one particular
Speaker 1: time I was elbowed in the head and I turned
Speaker 1: around to the woman and I said, wow, you seem
Speaker 1: to be in quite a rush. What are you here
Speaker 1: to do? And she says, support the families of Newtown.
Speaker 1: She had absolutely no recognition that she was talking to
Speaker 1: a mother. And it wasn't until the speaker pointed me
Speaker 1: out and said, thank you for coming, Melba, because I
Speaker 1: know you don't come to a lot of these things,
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, this woman next to me,
Speaker 1: who had just physically elbowed me in the head, became
Speaker 1: all a fly because then she knew who I was.
Speaker 1: It's exactly why I don't put who I am in
Speaker 1: my I don't know if you've noticed, I don't put
Speaker 1: it in my bio on Twitter. I want to see
Speaker 1: who you are and how you treat me before you
Speaker 1: know I lost a kid in Newtown, because I sure
Speaker 1: as hell hope that if I lost a kid in
Speaker 1: Compton or Hartford or anywhere, that you would give as
Speaker 1: much a crap then just because it's Newtown because you're
Speaker 1: not really an activist. You're you're looking for some kind
Speaker 1: of You're you're centering yourself. And we just really got
Speaker 1: to drill down this point that if you're fighting for me,
Speaker 1: you have to know me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that means being uncomfortable and awkward and unknowing, right,
Speaker 2: And this is this is true for anybody going through
Speaker 2: a personal experience, right, Like we think we know better.
Speaker 2: We want to come in and be like, I know
Speaker 2: what you need, you need this, and I'm doing this
Speaker 2: for you, and let me just show up and do
Speaker 2: it well, Like, hello, why don't you take a beat
Speaker 2: and ask the person in front of you who they
Speaker 2: are and what they need. If you truly want to
Speaker 2: be of service, find out what that person needs and
Speaker 2: serve there. It means humility. It means offering somebody else
Speaker 2: their own sovereignty and their own agency. And we are
Speaker 2: just not skilled. That's not a habit, right, like centering
Speaker 2: somebody else's experience and showing up to serve the way
Speaker 2: they need to be served. That is not the way
Speaker 2: that we normally do things. We really want to be
Speaker 2: seen as the savior.
Speaker 3: I am amening all the way here, I am saying yes, girl, Yes,
Speaker 3: I honestly don't think these are things I would have
Speaker 3: known before I lost Anna, in the same way as since.
Speaker 1: Having lost a child. There is something to us that
Speaker 1: wants to feel that we have fixed, we have helped,
Speaker 1: we have been the one to resolve. But as we know,
Speaker 1: grief does not have easy fixes or easy helps or resolve.
Speaker 1: And it's just that witnessing, that journeying, that being with
Speaker 1: us and allowing us to borrow your words to have
Speaker 1: sovereignty agency over our experiences what is really helpful. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you said that. That was Yeah.
Speaker 2: I am a big fan of sovereignty. There are so
Speaker 2: many headlines, so many issues right now where sovereignty is
Speaker 2: the answer, right, Like, sovereignty is actually the answer you're
Speaker 2: looking for, friends, And this is one of the things
Speaker 2: that I really love about this work is that these
Speaker 2: things aren't siloed.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: Right, the ways that people should treat families who have
Speaker 2: survived gun violence is the same way that they should
Speaker 2: treat people in the queer community, people in the trans community,
Speaker 2: communities of color. Like when people are telling you what hurts,
Speaker 2: you need to believe them and let them lead. So
Speaker 2: these aren't I think we can get ooh, I think
Speaker 2: we can get trapped into thinking like these are separate incidences.
Speaker 2: None of these things are separate. This is the way
Speaker 2: that we have decided we are of the most use
Speaker 2: without finding out if we are of the most use.
Speaker 2: And this idea to borrow from the recovery language, like
Speaker 2: taking other people's emotional inventory for them, I know what
Speaker 2: you need, you need to do this, like hmm, there
Speaker 2: is a time for feedback and advice and suggestions. Yes,
Speaker 2: I think people get really super stuck in like the
Speaker 2: on off switch of like oh, then nobody can tell
Speaker 2: you anything, and if you're doing it wrong, like nobody
Speaker 2: is allowed to tell you? Well no, But if we
Speaker 2: if we start with connection, if we start with a
Speaker 2: shared foundation where your primary experience is the one that
Speaker 2: we hold sovereign and central, then we can have a
Speaker 2: respectful conversation about what things might need to shift for you.
Speaker 2: The pushback that I often hear is yes, well, sometimes
Speaker 2: people are doing things that are harmful to themselves or others,
Speaker 2: and we don't want to just allow them to be
Speaker 2: all sovereign about that. Shit, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1: It's a very colonialist model of help. It's a very
Speaker 1: early social work development model of help. It says I
Speaker 1: know what you need. You don't know what you need,
Speaker 1: but I know what you need, and it drives exploitation.
Speaker 1: What does that look like, Beba, what are you talking about? Okay,
Speaker 1: we heard some of that language when people were collecting
Speaker 1: money on our behalf. So you don't know what you need,
Speaker 1: so we're going to hold that money for you. What
Speaker 1: do you mean you get to use my daughter's picture,
Speaker 1: her image, our tragedy, raise money and then say you're
Speaker 1: not going to give it out because we don't really
Speaker 1: know what we need, so you're going to hold it
Speaker 1: and make me ask you. It's a very non victim
Speaker 1: centered approach. It's very paternalistic. It's so gross and exploitive.
Speaker 1: And I can't even begin to tell you how painful
Speaker 1: it is to have to grieve a loved one, to
Speaker 1: be put in this position of tragedy, and then be
Speaker 1: asked to fight for your sense of agency and sovereignty
Speaker 1: in this way, or be put in this position. Now,
Speaker 1: some people may not be as sensitized to it, and
Speaker 1: I respect that. Again, I want to say respect survivor choice,
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I'm not saying nobody should show an
Speaker 1: image or everyone should take issue with the same things
Speaker 1: I take issue with. No, no, no, no no. But we
Speaker 1: do want to respect people's ways of being. And I
Speaker 1: think that's just so important and exactly what you said earlier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been talking with Melba Marquez Green, founder of
Speaker 2: the On a Grace Project and a gun violence survivor advocate.
Speaker 2: Let's get back to it. Do you want to tell
Speaker 2: people a little bit about the whole fundraising for families thing?
Speaker 2: And let me phrase, let me frame this a little bit.
Speaker 2: I was watching your most recent interview on the View,
Speaker 2: and I love that they asked you what can people
Speaker 2: do in the wake of each new tragedy, and you said,
Speaker 2: look for the families and give direct support there. Can
Speaker 2: you tell folks a little bit about thinking about what
Speaker 2: you just said, about how you were basically given or
Speaker 2: either had an allowance or were barred from the financial
Speaker 2: resources that were fundraised, Like, I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people don't realize that sort of weirder size of financial
Speaker 2: support for surviving families. Can you tell people a little
Speaker 2: bit about that so they know what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: I want your listeners to know that it is really bad,
Speaker 1: bad in many ways, and you have to be so
Speaker 1: incredibly conscientious in order to create a different manner of being.
Speaker 1: So thirty seconds before that interview, on the view that
Speaker 1: you're talking about, I'm running to the producer because I
Speaker 1: can see on the teleprompter that they're going to end
Speaker 1: the segment with my foundation. So I'm saying to the producer,
Speaker 1: you can't do that. I don't want you to do that,
Speaker 1: because other people's tragedy is not the place or time
Speaker 1: to promote yourself. And I do really great work, and
Speaker 1: I love my work, but take that off. Take that off.
Speaker 1: And they were fine. I'm not sure they understood, but
Speaker 1: they trusted me enough to take it off because I
Speaker 1: had such a response to it. The second thing I
Speaker 1: would like to tell people is that tragedy community Tragedy
Speaker 1: becomes an incredible community development model. And it becomes that
Speaker 1: because again, we don't center families, we don't center those people.
Speaker 1: Think of concentric circles with those most impacted in the center,
Speaker 1: and then every circle out having another layer, it is
Speaker 1: easier to influence and impact the people in those external layers.
Speaker 1: Those people don't have demands, they're not scary right. They're
Speaker 1: not going to typically yell at you. You're not going
Speaker 1: to feel bad when they say, hey, I don't want that,
Speaker 1: I want this. They're easier to meet. Right. You can
Speaker 1: take a picture of yourself with someone thirty levels removed
Speaker 1: from Newtown and feel really good. You gave to them,
Speaker 1: right to give to us, to give to me. I'll
Speaker 1: only speak for me. I have demands. Does it honor
Speaker 1: my daughter? Does it honor God? Does it honor my family?
Speaker 1: Are you really giving to me? No, I don't want
Speaker 1: to take a picture with you. If you want to
Speaker 1: give to me, just give to me. I should not
Speaker 1: have to pay for this by you splashing my face
Speaker 1: on the cover of your thing. So there's that individual level,
Speaker 1: and then there's the systemic level of tons of people
Speaker 1: came here to this community to raise money and said
Speaker 1: it was for the families, and people didn't ask. And
Speaker 1: I talk about two things there, reflective giving and reflexive giving.
Speaker 1: And reflexive giving is that need we have to oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, a terrible thing happened and I just want
Speaker 1: to help and just give without thinking. And then there's
Speaker 1: reflective giving, which forces or asks that you say, well,
Speaker 1: where's the money really going to whom am I really
Speaker 1: sending it to. So that's why I love that some
Speaker 1: of these families are now sophisticated enough to start their
Speaker 1: own gofundmes. I'm a feeling that's going to go right
Speaker 1: in their direct accounts, and I don't have to give
Speaker 1: to a intermediary that's telling me they're going to give
Speaker 1: when I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 2: I love that that distinction there between those two different
Speaker 2: kinds of giving. There is that beautiful human impulse to
Speaker 2: want to be of help. Right, I can't fix this,
Speaker 2: but I have to do something. We love that energy here,
Speaker 2: for that energy, that's amazing, right, I love that human
Speaker 2: impulse to connect. What I hear you saying is we
Speaker 2: have to do the work to vet the resource of like,
Speaker 2: where is that financial support? Where is it actually going?
Speaker 2: Is that message of support and resourcing actually meeting the
Speaker 2: person you intend, or the family you intend, or the
Speaker 2: community you intend, because unfortunately, crappy reality here is nine
Speaker 2: times out of ten it is not.
Speaker 1: And it's your right as a consumer give as a
Speaker 1: donor to say, you know what, I think, I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily want to give to a family. I want to
Speaker 1: give to a but then do it with conscientiousness, do
Speaker 1: it with intentionality. Right, But if things were just my
Speaker 1: husband and I would not be sitting here ten years
Speaker 1: after Newtown wondering how we're going to send our sons
Speaker 1: to college. Know that your lack of ask, your lack
Speaker 1: of clarity, your commitment to reflexive giving instead of reflective giving,
Speaker 1: makes families vulnerable to exploitation and in the long term
Speaker 1: doesn't help them at all. I can think of five
Speaker 1: different agencies who said, well, we can't just give you money.
Speaker 1: What if you do something? And I'm thinking you collected
Speaker 1: money on my behalf. That's right, I'm thirty At that time,
Speaker 1: I was thirty seven years old. I've managed my own
Speaker 1: finances for but your telling, I mean, it was wild
Speaker 1: and bizarre. So I encourage people listening to do due diligence,
Speaker 1: to ask and to determine. If I have twenty dollars
Speaker 1: to give, where do I want to give it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's an act of personal agency and sovereignty
Speaker 2: as well, right, because we want you to truly do
Speaker 2: the good that you wish to do, like that impulse
Speaker 2: to be of use, to be supportive, to be of service,
Speaker 2: is a beautiful thing and we want you to be
Speaker 2: I don't know well served by that. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: weird to say, like, you know, give as a person
Speaker 2: who really likes to give and be supportive and serve,
Speaker 2: like that does actually give me something, right, because one
Speaker 2: I get to feel like I'm being of use, it
Speaker 2: helps me with my own level of helplessness, which honestly
Speaker 2: is a pretty frickin' outsized feeling these days. That feeling
Speaker 2: of helplessness. It lets me feel like I have taken
Speaker 2: tangible action for good and I want that for me, right.
Speaker 2: I want that for me, And in order to really
Speaker 2: get that, I do need to take those extra steps
Speaker 2: to ask myself, what do I want to do with
Speaker 2: my gift of financial resources or whatever it is, whatever
Speaker 2: tangible thing you're wanting to give to that moment, What
Speaker 2: do I want out of this? And what are the
Speaker 2: best places for me to make sure I get that
Speaker 2: kind of return?
Speaker 1: Again?
Speaker 2: For me, the return is feeling like I was of
Speaker 2: tangible use.
Speaker 1: And there is nothing more beautiful I have to say
Speaker 1: for me than when somebody reaches out to me and says, hi,
Speaker 1: my name is and I'm connected to your story. You
Speaker 1: don't have to reply, but I just wanted to tell
Speaker 1: you that. I also want to let you know that
Speaker 1: I have these ways of being helpful in this moment.
Speaker 1: If any of these things resonate with you and you
Speaker 1: feel like you have the bandwidth to reach out to me,
Speaker 1: I am here. And this is an invitation that doesn't
Speaker 1: have an expiration date, or this is an invitation that
Speaker 1: is time sensitive, but it is truly up to you.
Speaker 1: I have had moments of just incredible the beauty reading
Speaker 1: that and being able to say, yes, I know that
Speaker 1: with a five hundred dollars gift, you want to be
Speaker 1: able to at your alma mater put a plaque on
Speaker 1: the back of a chair with my daughter's name on
Speaker 1: in the performing arts center. Yes, her family approves that.
Speaker 1: And giving us the ability to have some control over
Speaker 1: how her name and memory and legacy is remembered is
Speaker 1: just incredibly important. So it's a listen when we do
Speaker 1: this right, because here's what I think about all of us.
Speaker 1: We yearn to do better for each other. Sometimes we
Speaker 1: stumble and we get it wrong and we just don't
Speaker 1: know how, and it's awkward and weird, but there's rupture
Speaker 1: that happens when we don't. But then there's also this
Speaker 1: wonderful concept of repair and being in closer connection and
Speaker 1: having these repairs is so freaking healing for all of us.
Speaker 1: So let's do those things. And the rupture repair concept
Speaker 1: is not mine. I guard it from Bruce Perry, who's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite people. But we can do this.
Speaker 1: We can so do this. We just have to do
Speaker 1: it together.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, What I love about that is like permission
Speaker 2: to be awkward, right, And that scripting that you just shared,
Speaker 2: you know, of somebody saying I don't need anything from
Speaker 2: you here is clearly what I can offer here is
Speaker 2: clearly my expectations of you. And I'm not asking you
Speaker 2: to do more labor or do this in this like
Speaker 2: that is so awkwardly beautiful and beautifully awkward. We have
Speaker 2: to be willing to make those like those statements should
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable because they're new, like classic therapists, right, Like
Speaker 2: this behavior should feel a little bit weird because it's
Speaker 2: new for you. That means you're learning and growing and changing.
Speaker 1: Let's all feel a little.
Speaker 2: Bit more awkward, and that there's a big risk reward there, right,
Speaker 2: It is a risk to be vulnerable and awkward and
Speaker 2: not center yourself. The payoff for that is magnificent.
Speaker 1: For everyone forever. We should do more scripts. We should
Speaker 1: do more scripts. Let's do a script for there's someone
Speaker 1: in your neighborhood you know that you lost their spouse
Speaker 1: or and you don't know what to what to say. Listen,
Speaker 1: I have this whole concept. Not everybody's going to be
Speaker 1: an inside the house friend, right. Sometimes you're a porch
Speaker 1: step friend or a mailbox friend, and you can send
Speaker 1: a note saying I don't have any expectation, I just
Speaker 1: wanted you to know I'm thinking of you. Sometimes people
Speaker 1: will leave little things on my porch, and it feels
Speaker 1: so much less intrusive than having to open the door.
Speaker 1: I'm actually so grateful when somebody doesn't make me answer
Speaker 1: the door, especially in November December, near the anniversary of
Speaker 1: the shooting, because I don't want to put on I
Speaker 1: constantly feel on display, and I don't want to have
Speaker 1: to put on emotional girdles for anyone, right or I
Speaker 1: don't want to feel like somebody's going to tell people
Speaker 1: that I was crying. So anyway, so leaving something on
Speaker 1: the step is putting something in a card in the mail,
Speaker 1: I am thinking of you. It does not require perfect words.
Speaker 1: It just requires witnessing.
Speaker 2: Witnessing, bearing, witness acknowledgment. Right, acknowledgment is the magic.
Speaker 1: I see you.
Speaker 2: I don't need anything from you. I don't need you
Speaker 2: to perform anything from me. I don't even need you
Speaker 2: to say thank you. I need to see you.
Speaker 1: Amen, and again, Like, this is true for everything.
Speaker 2: If you know people, people are often asking like, okay, no,
Speaker 2: but what do I do in this specific situation? Okay,
Speaker 2: but no, what about this situation? And what about this one?
Speaker 2: Like you do not need a fourteen story handbook of
Speaker 2: every script to every situation ever, Like, I think we
Speaker 2: can boil this down to just a couple of things. Right,
Speaker 2: Let the person at the center of the suffering lead,
Speaker 2: ask them what they need, right, not pester them, but ask, right,
Speaker 2: are there specific things you need? And then find out
Speaker 2: if you can meet any of those. So one, let
Speaker 2: the person at the center lead, and acknowledgment is the
Speaker 2: best medicine. You don't have to know what to say.
Speaker 2: There is nothing to say. Nothing you say is going
Speaker 2: to make any of this stuff better. Saying I see you,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of you, You don't need to give me
Speaker 2: anything else in return. That is beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's a gift. One more thing I would encourage your
Speaker 1: listeners is sometimes there's a sense of urgency, especially in
Speaker 1: the first six months to a year. Right, I've offered
Speaker 1: help and they haven't called me back, So that must
Speaker 1: mean we're not friends anymore or they don't like me. Man,
Speaker 1: you're centering yourself again, and we would like you to
Speaker 1: not do that, because guess what everyone comes in the
Speaker 1: first six months, right, we need people who are also
Speaker 1: going to be their year, six year, ten year, sixteen year, thirty.
Speaker 1: So if your friend who is going through treatment for
Speaker 1: an illness, or your friend who has lost a partner
Speaker 1: or a child or a parent, or whoever it is
Speaker 1: or is experienced loss does not get back to you,
Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean we do not like you or
Speaker 1: you're not valuable or important. It could literally mean that
Speaker 1: the person is so overwhelmed they have no idea how
Speaker 1: to respond. And again, you said something about not pestering.
Speaker 1: That holds. It absolutely holds. And also you can decide
Speaker 1: to put in your calendar every two months, I am
Speaker 1: going to send the text periodically, right, And people who
Speaker 1: waited until I was ready to talk to them, and
Speaker 1: maybe it took five years. But who stayed after it
Speaker 1: was fashionable to care for a Sandy Hook family became
Speaker 1: my people. People who stayed after it was fashionable.
Speaker 2: I love the statement of you stay after it's fashionable
Speaker 2: to stay. I think, on one hand, if you are
Speaker 2: sort of more of a casual acquaintance to somebody at
Speaker 2: the center of something like this, like there's always a
Speaker 2: new catastrophe, there's always a new tragedy, there's always some
Speaker 2: new terrible thing to take your focus. Also, like people
Speaker 2: have lives, they're living and all of that stuff, right,
Speaker 2: but that the longevity of care, like your child will
Speaker 2: never not be dead, So how can there possibly be
Speaker 2: an expiration date on the care and attack and acknowledgment
Speaker 2: that your family needs.
Speaker 1: You know, I think there is a misperception of grief
Speaker 1: in our culture. I don't think it's in every culture,
Speaker 1: but certainly in hours that grief is kind of like
Speaker 1: dairy is shelf. Life is really short right by now? Right?
Speaker 1: Look at you you were on with Brene Brown. Look
Speaker 1: at you? Oh hang no, I saw you with Gail.
Speaker 1: Things going good? You know, It's like I'm okay, man,
Speaker 1: let me tell you right now, let me reduce or
Speaker 1: let me kind of like.
Speaker 2: Illusion for you a little.
Speaker 1: Let me let me tell you it has been five
Speaker 1: days since I had a full night's sleep. Let me
Speaker 1: tell you that last night in particular was brutal, having
Speaker 1: to work through yet another op ed saying display the carnage.
Speaker 1: Time to show the carnage, you know, just kind of
Speaker 1: encouraging this thought that says these I'm seeing photos or
Speaker 1: autopsy photos should be public. I'm on three hours of
Speaker 1: sleep right now, and I don't know when that's going
Speaker 1: to get better. So I could really use a friend.
Speaker 1: And that's this is ten years, So this is what
Speaker 1: ten years might look like. So do not pause or
Speaker 1: delay your care because you think someone's over it. Even
Speaker 1: if they're over it, wouldn't it be just great to
Speaker 1: do that connecting.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be lovely to connect and find out if
Speaker 2: your assumption is actually true. I think there's this, like,
Speaker 2: you know, there's such desperation and we've touched on this
Speaker 2: a lot, desperation to feel like somebody who has survived
Speaker 2: a tragedy or a trauma is all better now, Like
Speaker 2: it makes us feel better, right, Like, okay, the world,
Speaker 2: the world is okay, the world is a safe place.
Speaker 2: Nothing like this would ever happen to me. But if
Speaker 2: it did, I would be okay. Look look at Naba.
Speaker 2: She's on Oprah, she's on the View, she's on this,
Speaker 2: she's got our bets, she's got all of these things. Well,
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean shit.
Speaker 1: It's actually gonna kill people. It's going to put people
Speaker 1: in a box where they feel like they won't be
Speaker 1: able to tell you. I know because I talk to
Speaker 1: survivors all the time, and they they it's basically a
Speaker 1: glass enclosure that gets smaller and smaller and smaller until
Speaker 1: the survivor feels like they don't have anywhere to turn
Speaker 1: because either they have developed a persona of overcoming and
Speaker 1: that's their one thing they can share, or so listen,
Speaker 1: I am all for people. Well what's she for? She
Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk a bit about her foundation. She went, well,
Speaker 1: I'm for survivors surviving. I'm for us thriving. I'm for
Speaker 1: us having something that is not just laying prostrate to
Speaker 1: the grief or holding a picket sign. I believe I'm
Speaker 1: also meriting of joy, of peace, of whatever the hell
Speaker 1: I want to have you're getting every God, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: deserve a life. I didn't. I didn't sign up for.
Speaker 1: You know, you lose a child and then you have
Speaker 1: to sacrifice eighty other things. I didn't sign up for that.
Speaker 1: I didn't give you permission to demand that of me.
Speaker 1: And I need you to leave me alone, like all
Speaker 1: the way, get the f alone. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we think that you know you you
Speaker 2: are articulate and insightful, right like all of these skills
Speaker 2: that you had before any of this and you will
Speaker 2: have forever that you owe us the inside scoop that
Speaker 2: now that you know we need to get this from you,
Speaker 2: like would just keep coming at survivors, And it is,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's also accurate to say, like no
Speaker 2: one has to become an advocate. Nobody has to become
Speaker 2: a voice, nobody has to champion survivors or support survivors
Speaker 2: or listen to survivors. Nobody has to do any of
Speaker 2: this stuff. It's just that, like we get to have
Speaker 2: more than one option here. You and I both do this,
Speaker 2: Like we use our voices and our skills and our
Speaker 2: hearts and our intellect and our language skills to speak
Speaker 2: about stuff we never wanted to have to speak about.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean we'd have to speak it all the
Speaker 2: time to every person who asks for all eternity.
Speaker 1: Or that we should be doing it for free. So
Speaker 1: another side of this is the demand of free labor.
Speaker 1: So not only did I have to sacrifice a child
Speaker 1: right now, I'm supposed to like do all this for free.
Speaker 1: And so I recently created.
Speaker 2: The goodness of your heart now but out of the
Speaker 2: goodness of your heart because aren't you rich?
Speaker 1: Didn't you make all that money? And Sandy Hook, I
Speaker 1: want to say, like, how am I supposed to eat
Speaker 1: or send my kids to college if you want me to?
Speaker 1: I recently got an email it was like, hey, you
Speaker 1: know we love you. You are amazing. You would be
Speaker 1: perfect at this xyz keinote we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: hope And I said, great, I'm gonna have someone send
Speaker 1: you a form. They send the form and there's nothing
Speaker 1: in the compensation line, and I'm like, and our keino
Speaker 1: is kind of a lot of prep. While I'm good
Speaker 1: with on the fly, still a lot of prep. Let
Speaker 1: me just double check, have my person double check. And
Speaker 1: the reply is we will offer free Danish and parking
Speaker 1: and I literally wanted to throw my computer across the room.
Speaker 1: So I now have a statement on my one of
Speaker 1: my pages, and I replied, I replied, And you know
Speaker 1: it's bad if I reply, I said.
Speaker 2: If you in the room, you know you're in trouble.
Speaker 1: Yes, I said, I you know. I encourage you to
Speaker 1: read the pinned post on the Ona Grace Project facebook
Speaker 1: page explaining the impact of the demand of free labor
Speaker 1: on women, particularly women of color. If after you've read
Speaker 1: that you'd like to reconsider, feel free to resend the form.
Speaker 1: But I'm kind of done doing free work unless it
Speaker 1: is something that I choose. And the truth is, I
Speaker 1: choose to work with families who are in my shoes,
Speaker 1: and in order for me to do that for free,
Speaker 1: some things have to have revenue stream and I deserve
Speaker 1: to eat and maybe go on vacation. There is nothing
Speaker 1: like being asked to do free stuff all the time
Speaker 1: and then looking at the people asking you and knowing
Speaker 1: that they're handsomely employed and watching them on vacation and
Speaker 1: you can't go because you're not being paid. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's just so tough. So it's a lot, And I
Speaker 1: know that was probably more than your listener's no way, it.
Speaker 2: Is important, right, I mean this is again like these
Speaker 2: are not siloed issues. Women and particularly women of color,
Speaker 2: are always asked to do shit for free.
Speaker 1: It's true university university commencements. And I'm like, hey, university commencements.
Speaker 1: I know there is a budget I have to eat,
Speaker 1: and the idea that I have to say that it's
Speaker 1: it's it can be disheartening. So I try to focus
Speaker 1: on the people who actually come back with that, Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry. We shouldn't have done that, and that
Speaker 1: does happen, but I'm grateful in the moment that we
Speaker 1: are safe and Okay, yeah, I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even if you didn't, as you said, as you've
Speaker 2: said a few times, like I deserve to eat, Like
Speaker 2: even if you had loads of money, you deserve to
Speaker 2: be paid for your time. You don't have to be
Speaker 2: in desperate need of the basics in order to be
Speaker 2: respected and supported and paid to show up wherever you're invited.
Speaker 2: And we go back to sovereignty, right, we go back
Speaker 2: to personal choice and agency. Like if you choose to
Speaker 2: do something for no pay or for donations or for
Speaker 2: some other thing, that is your choice, but to have
Speaker 2: that expectation put on you, and there's shame in that
Speaker 2: expectation too, right, Like, oh, if you really cared, you
Speaker 2: would do this well, if you really cared about the issue,
Speaker 2: you would find a way to actually pay me for
Speaker 2: the time. If you think that I am an expert
Speaker 2: worthy to speak to these people or speak to your team,
Speaker 2: then the way that we do that in this culture
Speaker 2: is to show our respects by paying somebody for their work.
Speaker 1: There is another layer of shame for me, and it's
Speaker 1: that one of the biggest misconceptions of the Sandy Hook
Speaker 1: families was that we were all rich, so we should
Speaker 1: all have donated everything to everything And to have to
Speaker 1: be a person who says, actually, we're kind of working people.
Speaker 1: You know, my husband's a professor, and you know I'm
Speaker 1: a therapist, so you know, like I had to get
Speaker 1: over in lots of therapy, this feeling of failure I
Speaker 1: had having to ask for payment, and she really helped me.
Speaker 1: I love my therapist so much. Yeah, therapist, see yes, yes,
Speaker 1: And I let me tell you it was really something
Speaker 1: to find a therapist that was trauma informed and also
Speaker 1: a therapist of color. That combination has been life giving
Speaker 1: and she's really helped me with a number of things,
Speaker 1: but number one valuing myself in my time and not
Speaker 1: feeling that shame of I don't know, owing people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was.
Speaker 2: Actually a tweet that you put up a while ago,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to read it because it's awesome. I mean,
Speaker 2: all of your tweets are awesome. I feel like I
Speaker 2: could just like I could sit here and just read
Speaker 2: all of your words. That would be too okay, But
Speaker 2: I want to go back to something we touched on
Speaker 2: a little bit, which is sure grief is the long haul,
Speaker 2: the same way love as the long haul. And we're
Speaker 2: coming up on the tenure anniversary of sand and I
Speaker 2: want to read this this tweet because if I ever
Speaker 2: had any doubt that you're my people, that I mean,
Speaker 2: I never had any doubt about that. Okay, So here's
Speaker 2: the thing I say, such build up. Ah Okay, so
Speaker 2: you said I want someone to do a ten year
Speaker 2: anniversary piece with me. That's more than a tired tragedy
Speaker 2: to triumph. Narrative. Survivorship is complex, let us tell you this,
Speaker 2: hopeful yes, and complex. There are so many layers you're
Speaker 2: missing out on, always wanting us to tell the same thing.
Speaker 2: That's just glorious. So a couple of things I want
Speaker 2: to touch on here as we start rounding a corner.
Speaker 2: We're not done yet, but as we start rounding a
Speaker 2: corner here to the close of our time, like, can
Speaker 2: we talk about that triumphant narrative because we know hitting
Speaker 2: the ten year milestone of Sandy Hook, that those triumph
Speaker 2: stories are gonna start arriving. What if you could, if
Speaker 2: you could see us everybody on video, We're both just like,
Speaker 2: uh huh.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, because there's no there are no words for
Speaker 1: the bullshit. There are no words for the superficiality that
Speaker 1: that narrative demands. There's no words. It's like trying to
Speaker 1: tell to I don't know. Listen. We need more depth,
Speaker 1: we need more complexity, we need a larger range of emotions.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to give you that. So what I did,
Speaker 1: and I'm so proud of myself, is that I started
Speaker 1: working with a person. And I also think we need
Speaker 1: to create spaces for survivors to not need to join
Speaker 1: advocacy groups to get help. Right. Typically the road is
Speaker 1: you have enough money to hire someone, which I don't,
Speaker 1: or you join a Survivor group and they give you benefit.
Speaker 1: You know, media, train, you do all these things. I
Speaker 1: don't want to do all that. I don't feel like
Speaker 1: I need to wear anybody's clothes or whatever to I
Speaker 1: lost my daughter. That is what qualifies me for anything else,
Speaker 1: anything you have to give me. So I got a
Speaker 1: person and I work with her, and her name is Taylor,
Speaker 1: and I love her so much. And Taylor asked me,
Speaker 1: what is it you want to talk about. Let's have
Speaker 1: the conversation, so not just what you don't want to do,
Speaker 1: but what do you want to do? And after listening
Speaker 1: to me, she reflected back and we had this awesome thing.
Speaker 1: And from that tweet, because that's where that tweet was born,
Speaker 1: I actually got to connect with a writer that I
Speaker 1: really love and she's going to tell my story. So
Speaker 1: this is why I say, when we resource people, then
Speaker 1: we can have the stories that might change hurts. That's
Speaker 1: my way of getting there. Resource me so I can
Speaker 1: tell you my story. So someone sitting in Indiana can
Speaker 1: go damn, but don't give me a menu I have
Speaker 1: been given. I live in a world where I've been
Speaker 1: given scripts and told this is what you're gonna say
Speaker 1: at TV. I'm a forty seven year old Puerto Rican woman.
Speaker 1: I want you to know that one over like a
Speaker 1: leading balloon, as it should for anyone. No survivor should
Speaker 1: ever be handed a script. No survivor should ever be
Speaker 1: told what to wear. No survivor should ever ever not
Speaker 1: get an opportunity to tell their story and all of.
Speaker 2: It, Yeah, in their own voice, in their own timing,
Speaker 2: in their own.
Speaker 1: Way, because it is so awesome.
Speaker 2: It is awesome. And you know, like, if you think
Speaker 2: about what is the aim of a media outlet or
Speaker 2: a news outlet who wants you to tell a specific story? Right, Like, yes,
Speaker 2: clicks advertising, but what they're looking for is emotional impact.
Speaker 2: Do you know what has emotional impact? The fucking truth?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, No one.
Speaker 2: Needs that same tired tragedy to triumph narrative. We know
Speaker 2: it's not true, we know it's not accurate. We don't
Speaker 2: need trauma porn, we don't need transformation porn. We need real, actual,
Speaker 2: true stories. And I love what you said there. If
Speaker 2: we really want all of this insistence on, show the photos,
Speaker 2: all of this stuff, what we're hoping is to move people.
Speaker 2: You move people with the truth, Like let people tell
Speaker 2: the true story.
Speaker 1: I left my full time job a year ago and
Speaker 1: I didn't know how we were going to do it.
Speaker 1: And even though we personally may not have much, I
Speaker 1: helped an assistant give out over one hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 1: this year to charities close to my heart, and mostly
Speaker 1: to the school that bears my daughter's name, which we
Speaker 1: have supported to the tune of over seventy five thousand
Speaker 1: dollars of that money. I'll tell you that, but that's
Speaker 1: not everything, right, that's not everything. Let me tell you
Speaker 1: more than that, because you're going to understand not just me,
Speaker 1: but other people better and how to show up for
Speaker 1: them in a meaningful way. So I don't know that
Speaker 1: I've ever talked to a survivor that doesn't deeply care
Speaker 1: about the group right our community, and I think that's
Speaker 1: really beautiful about us.
Speaker 2: So I usually like to have answers, and this season,
Speaker 2: I'm like, what is a question that I'm either wrestling
Speaker 2: with or I don't know the answer to. And for me, like,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to end all of these conversations or stitch
Speaker 2: all of these conversations with questions about hope. And I
Speaker 2: love that you just brought up beauty because to me,
Speaker 2: those things are intertwined. You can tell I don't know
Speaker 2: the answer, because I get very choked knowing what you
Speaker 2: know and living what you live, the whole story of it,
Speaker 2: not just what the headlines want us to believe, not
Speaker 2: just what the sound bites want us to believe, not
Speaker 2: just not just this shallow end of this pool. What
Speaker 2: does hope look like for you?
Speaker 1: For me, Hope lives in every moment I reclaim my voice.
Speaker 1: Hope lives in every moment I can use my privilege
Speaker 1: to make space for someone who has also lost, but
Speaker 1: maybe has never gotten an opportunity to tell their story.
Speaker 1: And I have so many of those moments. Hope comes
Speaker 1: meeting people that say I get it and show me
Speaker 1: they do, or meeting people that say I didn't get it,
Speaker 1: but damn I heard that interview and I can do better,
Speaker 1: and here's what I'm trying. Hope comes, and every person
Speaker 1: that is grieving that has reached out to me and
Speaker 1: said thank you for speaking my truth too. It made
Speaker 1: me more courageous in not feeling like I had to
Speaker 1: just be one way. Hope comes in every moment that
Speaker 1: my husband still thinks like I'm his sweetheart. Hope comes
Speaker 1: in every moment I look at my son and he's
Speaker 1: excited about something. My son was eight when his sister
Speaker 1: was murdered. He has every reason to not hope. In
Speaker 1: this country, boys who look like him are murdered with
Speaker 1: impunity more often than we report. And my son still
Speaker 1: has hope and that gives me great hope when I
Speaker 1: can't find it. So and if you ask him, he
Speaker 1: would say, it's you, mom, and that is stunning, right.
Speaker 1: But he wrote me a poem the other day and
Speaker 1: it was basically like, sometimes you're too much, but I
Speaker 1: love that you don't give up. I love that as
Speaker 1: a freaking badge of honor.
Speaker 2: That is a badge of honor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2: Hope is complex and messy because that is what life is.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that, yes, ma'am. Now, normally I close
Speaker 2: by asking my guest to tell people where they can
Speaker 2: find you. And I don't want people to find you
Speaker 2: if you don't want to be found. So if I
Speaker 2: ask you to sort of leave everybody with a message
Speaker 2: of where to go for more, what to explore. If
Speaker 2: they have been moved by this conversation and have had ideas,
Speaker 2: and feelings sparked by listening. Where should they go with
Speaker 2: those sparks? What do you want people to.
Speaker 1: Know so they're always welcome, you know, to follow me
Speaker 1: on Twitter, you know, they can look up my name.
Speaker 1: But if there's one thing I would want from your listeners,
Speaker 1: I would want for them to hear from me. Then
Speaker 1: I have had the blessing and opportunity to meet with
Speaker 1: mothers all over the country black mothers, Latino mothers, white mothers,
Speaker 1: rich mothers, poor mothers. And there is no mother that
Speaker 1: grieves less or more because of a circumstance. So if
Speaker 1: your heart grieves for me because I lost a child
Speaker 1: in Sandy Hook, I would also love for you to
Speaker 1: reach out to someone in your own community, like you
Speaker 1: don't just have to reach out to me right to
Speaker 1: make a difference, or to a survivor from a community
Speaker 1: that has gotten a lot of media coverage. It's actually
Speaker 1: so beautiful when you say in my neighborhood, oh wow,
Speaker 1: there's that group over there and they have ten griefs,
Speaker 1: and reach out there or in your family and in
Speaker 1: your community. If everybody goes to get a person and
Speaker 1: doesn't just wait for the highly visible person then we
Speaker 1: can create communities of compassion where people learn and grow
Speaker 1: and share and feel held and seen. And that would
Speaker 1: be such a win for me if in Anna's memory
Speaker 1: we build those things.
Speaker 2: All right, my friend, I'm going to close us up
Speaker 2: for this, and I will link to ways for you
Speaker 2: to find my friend Melba in the show notes and
Speaker 2: I'll be right back. Friends, each week, I leave you
Speaker 2: with some questions to carry with you until we meet again.
Speaker 2: And you know what really struck me in my conversation
Speaker 2: with Nelba is how ferocious she is about protecting grieving people,
Speaker 2: how ferocious she is about supporting people the way they
Speaker 2: want to be supported themselves, and that there's hope there.
Speaker 2: There's hope in the fact that people are moved by
Speaker 2: these stories, moved by these experiences, and that people take
Speaker 2: these big, deep feelings that all of this brings up,
Speaker 2: and you can choose to make a difference out of
Speaker 2: those big feelings. I mean, Nelba talks about it. I've
Speaker 2: seen it in my own life. I've seen it in
Speaker 2: a lot of your stories that you share with me.
Speaker 2: But we really can take our deep feelings are deep
Speaker 2: human relatedness and connection that comes up in these headlines
Speaker 2: in these stories that we read, in these tragedies that
Speaker 2: keep arriving and arriving and arriving. There's something really hopeful
Speaker 2: in the fact that we can take action to truly
Speaker 2: support the people at the center of these events. As
Speaker 2: Melba said, it's not just the places that get the
Speaker 2: most media coverage that need our Karen attention. You can
Speaker 2: take action in your own community, in the world around you,
Speaker 2: in the places that maybe don't get the kind of
Speaker 2: headline coverage that other places do. So that's where I'm
Speaker 2: taking some hope from this conversation with Melba. Everyone's going
Speaker 2: to take something different from today's show, but I do
Speaker 2: hope you found something to hold on to. As you
Speaker 2: heard Nelba say, she is for survivors surviving, and I'd
Speaker 2: love to know what surviving looks like or feels like
Speaker 2: to you. I would love to hear from you about
Speaker 2: what you've taken from this episode, or really about anything
Speaker 2: at all. Check out at Refuge and Grief on all
Speaker 2: the social media channels, or it's okay pod on TikTok
Speaker 2: to see video clips but not from this show because
Speaker 2: we didn't do video, but leave your thoughts in the
Speaker 2: comments on those posts. Be sure to give us a
Speaker 2: review wherever you follow your podcasts. Let me know how
Speaker 2: it's going out there in the world for you. You
Speaker 2: know how most people are going to scan through their
Speaker 2: podcast app looking for a new thing to listen to,
Speaker 2: and they're going to see the show description for Hereafter
Speaker 2: and think, I don't want to listen to difficult things,
Speaker 2: even if cool people are talking about them. Well, that's
Speaker 2: where you come in your reviews of the show. Let
Speaker 2: people know it really isn't all that bad. In here.
Speaker 2: We talk about heavy stuff, but it's in the service
Speaker 2: of making things better for everyone, So everyone needs to listen.
Speaker 2: Spread the word in your friend groups, your professional circles
Speaker 2: on social media, and click through to leave a review.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and keep on listening.
Speaker 2: Hereafter with Megan Divine is written and produced by me
Speaker 2: Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Fozzio, Logistical and social media support by Micah, and
Speaker 2: edited by Houston Tilley. Music provided by wave Crush and
Speaker 2: occasional background noise provided by Luna and The Neighborhood Leafblowers.